Season-Ending Losses, in Gut-Wrenching Order [Archive]

pfrduke

07-22-2011, 08:23 PM

When I saw the thread title, I thought it was *only* going to be a listing of season-ending losses, and which were the most painful, and which the least. Would be interesting: a small list (what, 27 games for K?), and nearly every game quite memorable for alot of folks. What's more crushing: VCU's buzzer beater over our not so great team, or Arizona's steam-rolling over our loaded squad .... '99 is the hardest for me to take; I could see folks saying '86 or '94 ....

Inspired by Reilly's suggestion, I offer the following list of season-ending losses under K, ordered by degree of difficulty (so to speak). Others, I'm sure, will disagree, but this should at least get the ball rolling (by the way, I'm sure I have a recency bias, both because of the closeness of certain events and because of age - while I was alive for all of these, I wasn't necessarily paying attention for most of the 80s):

1) 1986 - Louisville, Champ. Game, 69-71
2) 1999 - Connecticut, Champ. Game, 74-77
3) 1990 - UNLV, Champ. Game, 73-103
4) 1994 - Arkansas, Champ. Game, 72-76
5) 2004 - Connecticut, Final 4, 78-79
6) 1998 - Kentucky, Elite 8, 84-86
7) 2002 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 73-74
8) 1988 - Kansas, Final Four, 59-66
9) 2011 - Arizona, Sweet 16, 77-93
10) 1989 - Seton Hall, Final Four, 78-95
11) 2006 - LSU, Sweet 16, 54-62
12) 1987 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 82-88
13) 2009 - Villanova, Sweet 16, 54-77
14) 2000 - Florida, Sweet 16, 78-87
15) 2005 - Michigan St, Sweet 16 68-78
16) 1997 - Providence, Second Round, 87-98
17) 2008 - West Virginia, Second Round, 67-73
18) 1983 - Virginia, ACC Quarters, 66-109
19) 1993 - California, Second Round, 77-82
20) 1985 - Boston College, Second Round, 74-75
21) 2007 - VCU, First Round, 77-79
22) 1982 - Wake Forest, ACC Quarters, 53-88
23) 1981 - Purdue, NIT 3rd Round, 69-81
24) 1984 - Washington, Second Round, 78-80
25) 2003 - Kansas, Sweet 16, 65-69
26) 1996 - Eastern Michigan, First Round, 60-75

Lord Ash

07-22-2011, 09:08 PM

In my experiences, the top 4...

1) Arkansas, '94
2) UConn, '99
3) Indiana, '02
4) LSU, '06

Those are the guys that really stick out for me at the moment.

MarkD83

07-22-2011, 09:36 PM

The order looks about right because the games are ranked by order of importance. That is the championship games are at the top then the Final 4 losses etc.

What is amazing when I see this list is that Coach K has 4 national championships and could have 3 or 4 more. You can play this game the other way since there were games in the championship seasons that could have gone the other way. Nonetheless the extended excellence under Coach K is even evident when we look at season ending losses.

superdave

07-22-2011, 09:39 PM

devildeac

07-22-2011, 10:34 PM

103 to 73.

I have to go with this one because it's the only time I've ever cried over a sporting event. That hurt! Fortunately I was pretty young so I dont have to be toooooo embarrassed. Bobby Hurley had a rough night.

I cried after L'ville, 1986. What a great group of guys and no guarantee we'd ever see another FF (never expecting the run we had from 86-94).

OldPhiKap

07-22-2011, 10:46 PM

1. Louisville, 19 f'n 86

2. Everything else.

basket1544

07-22-2011, 11:05 PM

I mostly agree with the main list but I have to put 1993 California's loss higher on my list because I was only 11 and thought that Duke always went to the Final Four. I cried when Kidd out Hurley'ed Hurley almost as much as I cried in 1990.
1986 definitely goes first because those seniors deserved a championship. 1999 they were all young (except for Langdon) and had the opportunity to win it all the next year.

BD80

07-22-2011, 11:16 PM

Inspired by Reilly's suggestion, I offer the following list of season-ending losses under K, ordered by degree of difficulty (so to speak). Others, I'm sure, will disagree, but this should at least get the ball rolling (by the way, I'm sure I have a recency bias, both because of the closeness of certain events and because of age - while I was alive for all of these, I wasn't necessarily paying attention for most of the 80s):

1) 1986 - Louisville, Champ. Game, 69-71
2) 1999 - Connecticut, Champ. Game, 74-77
...
10) 1989 - Seton Hall, Final Four, 78-95
...
19) 1993 - California, Second Round, 77-82 ...

Cal should certainly be higher, we had Grant Hill and Bobby Hurley on the back-to-back defending champions, along with future pro Parks, Antonio Lang and Thomas Hill. Injuries and Jason Kidd killed us in a game we shouldn't have lost.

Seton Hall is one that still hurts - I was at the game. PJ and his Aussie thugs rolled Brickey early and we never recovered. Was that our most talented frontcourt ever? Ferry, Laettner, Brickey, Abdelnaby, John Smith, Greg Koubek, Brian Davis, Clay Buckley, Crawford Palmer, and George Burgin. We were a bit shy on guards, particularly because Quin was not a burner. Losing Brickey on the wing opened up the Aussie's long range shooting. With Brickey, it is a completely different game and we would have been able to defend Glen Rice in the championship game.

hurleyfor3

07-22-2011, 11:27 PM

2007, 2008 and 2009 don't bother me a bit because we completely had it coming. You can add 1996 and 97 to that list. In 1993 we wouldn't have beaten Kansas had we beaten Cal (and note their coach was Roy back then).

I'll say it again, after 1994 I was more proud of how we played than anything else. There were some personal things going on there too (for example it was the year after I graduated, so I felt less attached than in previous years).

Worst three are probably 1998, 2002 and 2006 in that order. No way we were losing to Stanford or Utah in '98, and we would have walked to a rematch with Maryland in '02. '06 bothers me because I can't stand losing to football schools. Although I guess either Texas or Florida would have beaten us. :|

Kedsy

07-22-2011, 11:49 PM

Although I guess either Texas or Florida would have beaten us. :|

Are you kidding? We absolutely crushed Texas earlier that same season. No reason to believe they would have beaten us.

Kedsy

07-23-2011, 12:35 AM

I guess it depends on your definition of "gut wrenching." Does it mean losing when you thought we would win? Losing when we had a legitimate shot at the national championship? Losing a tight game? Getting blown out? Are losses late in the tournament the worst or losses in the early rounds?

Let's face it. Every season-ending loss sucks. In a way it's all about expectations.

My recollections, in chronological order:

1981 - Purdue, NIT 3rd Round, 69-81 -- My junior year at Duke. Gene Banks got hurt in the NIT quarterfinal, and we never stood much of a chance. It bothered me that we lost to the team who kept us from getting to the Final Four the previous year, but without Gene the odds of winning this game were pretty long. I hoped we'd win, but I didn't expect it, so it didn't hurt all that much.

1982 - Wake Forest, ACC Quarters, 53-88 -- We were pretty bad this year. Loss simply put us out of our misery.

1983 - Virginia, ACC Quarters, 66-109 -- ditto, though the 43 point shellacking wasn't particularly pleasant.

1984 - Washington, Second Round, 78-80 -- our first NCAAT appearance in the K era. It hurt to lose our first game, even though we couldn't expect to get very far in the tournament.

1985 - Boston College, Second Round, 74-75 -- Second straight year we lost a heartbreaker in the NCAAT. I threw things around my living room, frightened my future ex-wife.

1986 - Louisville, Champ. Game, 69-71 -- This hurt. I remember thinking what a shame it was because who knew if we'd ever get a chance to win the championship again? Shows what I know.

1987 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 82-88 -- I didn't expect to get too far this year, and we lost to the eventual national champion, so this bothered me a lot less than most.

1988 - Kansas, Final Four, 59-66 -- We got down something like 20 to 0 (just looked it up and it was 14-0 and 24-6, but I remember it worse than that). We made a big comeback to get into the game but it was an uphill struggle. Had pretty much the entire game to get used to the idea that we might lose, so it wasn't as painful as it might have been.

1989 - Seton Hall, Final Four, 78-95 -- My first live Final Four. I completely expected to win. We had a big lead when Brickey got hurt and then Seton Hall went on a huge run. I was so upset I didn't know what to do with myself.

1990 - UNLV, Champ. Game, 73-103 -- We were lucky to get to this game, so in that respect it didn't hurt so much. Being in the arena and listening to announcer tell us over and over and over all the records UNLV was setting (winning margin, etc) made this one a lot less pleasant. But I wouldn't rank it too high on the pain scale.

1993 - California, Second Round, 77-82 -- I was convinced we were going back to the Final Four, and had tickets to the Regionals in St. Louis and the Final Four in New Orleans. Needless to say I wasn't happy with this one. The first half injury to Cherokee doesn't get as much attention as I think it deserved.

1994 - Arkansas, Champ. Game, 72-76 -- I'm going to disagree with most people on this. Of course I wanted to win, but it didn't hurt very much at all. One of my favorite Final Fours (and I've attended 21 of them). Arkansas was the big favorite and frankly we were lucky to be there. Tony Lang almost blocked the game winning shot and there wasn't anything more we could have done. I had dinner with the Collins family after the game and really enjoyed listening to Chris and Doug talk about the game.

1995 -- K didn't coach this game, so you didn't include it. We came out strong against regular season champ Wake Forest, but couldn't hold the lead. Another put-us-out-of-our-misery game.

1996 - Eastern Michigan, First Round, 60-75 -- Didn't expect to go far, but also didn't expect to get bounced in the first round by a directional school. Not as bad as 1985, but not entirely painless, either.

1997 - Providence, Second Round, 87-98 -- One of only two NCAAT first/second rounds I've ever attended. The team looked flat against Murray State and even worse against Providence. Didn't enjoy it at all, but we looked so bad it's hard to say the result hurt.

1998 - Kentucky, Elite 8, 84-86 -- Blowing an 18 point lead in the game that would get you to the Final Four is about as painful as it gets. Near the top of my list.

1999 - Connecticut, Champ. Game, 74-77 -- I was apparently in the minority in thinking this game should have been pick-em (as opposed to most who thought we were the big favorites). It didn't surprise me at all the game went down to the wire. If the UConn fans at the game (and afterwards) were less obnoxious, this one would have bothered me less.

2000 - Florida, Sweet 16, 78-87 -- The team basically had a six man rotation (and one of them was sick during the tourney), so I felt our gaudy record was mostly smoke and mirrors. Since I didn't think we had a legitimate chance to go far, this one didn't hurt so much.

2002 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 73-74 -- This was a killer. No way to put a good face on it.

2003 - Kansas, Sweet 16, 65-69 -- When the bracket came out I fully expected to lose to Kansas in this game. Annoying, but not extraordinarily painful.

2004 - Connecticut, Final 4, 78-79 -- This was a tough loss, but once they fouled out all our big men and Okafor somehow avoided his fifth foul, it was a foregone conclusion. I'm still not sure how I truly feel about this loss.

2005 - Michigan St, Sweet 16 68-78 -- This one took me by surprise, so it did hurt. I didn't really think we had a championship caliber team, though, so it hurt less than it might have.

2006 - LSU, Sweet 16, 54-62 -- What bothers me most about this loss is the way it continues to color our perceptions of what was one of the best regular-season Duke teams we've seen. This has to rank up there among the most disappointing losses in the K era.

2007 - VCU, First Round, 77-79 -- Like 1996. Didn't expect to win; didn't expect to get knocked out in the first round.

2008 - West Virginia, Second Round, 67-73 -- Before the bracket came out I said I hoped we didn't draw West Virginia. This one was tough to watch, but after beating Belmont by one point, this wasn't entirely unexpected, either.

2009 - Villanova, Sweet 16, 54-77 -- Nobody likes to get beaten over the head with a sledgehammer for 40 minutes. Didn't enjoy this one at all.

2011 - Arizona, Sweet 16, 77-93 -- This one would have hurt a lot more if it hadn't come the year after an improbable national championship. Didn't enjoy it, but after 2010 I didn't feel we had the right to complain.

I apologize for the long-winded post. All season ending losses are difficult. As blessed as we Duke fans have been over the past 30 years, I suppose what I'm trying to say is pain is relative.

Inspired by Reilly's suggestion, I offer the following list of season-ending losses under K, ordered by degree of difficulty (so to speak). Others, I'm sure, will disagree, but this should at least get the ball rolling (by the way, I'm sure I have a recency bias, both because of the closeness of certain events and because of age - while I was alive for all of these, I wasn't necessarily paying attention for most of the 80s):

1) 1986 - Louisville, Champ. Game, 69-71
2) 1999 - Connecticut, Champ. Game, 74-77
3) 1990 - UNLV, Champ. Game, 73-103
4) 1994 - Arkansas, Champ. Game, 72-76
5) 2004 - Connecticut, Final 4, 78-79
6) 1998 - Kentucky, Elite 8, 84-86
7) 2002 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 73-74
8) 1988 - Kansas, Final Four, 59-66
9) 2011 - Arizona, Sweet 16, 77-93
10) 1989 - Seton Hall, Final Four, 78-95
11) 2006 - LSU, Sweet 16, 54-62
12) 1987 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 82-88
13) 2009 - Villanova, Sweet 16, 54-77
14) 2000 - Florida, Sweet 16, 78-87
15) 2005 - Michigan St, Sweet 16 68-78
16) 1997 - Providence, Second Round, 87-98
17) 2008 - West Virginia, Second Round, 67-73
18) 1983 - Virginia, ACC Quarters, 66-109
19) 1993 - California, Second Round, 77-82
20) 1985 - Boston College, Second Round, 74-75
21) 2007 - VCU, First Round, 77-79
22) 1982 - Wake Forest, ACC Quarters, 53-88
23) 1981 - Purdue, NIT 3rd Round, 69-81
24) 1984 - Washington, Second Round, 78-80
25) 2003 - Kansas, Sweet 16, 65-69
26) 1996 - Eastern Michigan, First Round, 60-75

ThePublisher

07-23-2011, 01:14 AM

Bob Green

07-23-2011, 02:48 AM

103 to 73.

I have to go with this one because it's the only time I've ever cried over a sporting event.

I cried after L'ville, 1986. What a great group of guys and no guarantee we'd ever see another FF (never expecting the run we had from 86-94).

I'm in the same boat as devildeac as I sat on the floor of my San Diego apartment with tears rolling down my cheeks as the final seconds ticked off the clock.

pfrduke

07-23-2011, 02:58 AM

How can last years loss not be on the list?

9) 2011 - Arizona, Sweet 16, 77-93

It's there.

Nugget

07-23-2011, 03:48 AM

1999 - Connecticut, Champ. Game, 74-77 -- I was apparently in the minority in thinking this game should have been pick-em (as opposed to most who thought we were the big favorites). It didn't surprise me at all the game went down to the wire. If the UConn fans at the game (and afterwards) were less obnoxious, this one would have bothered me less.

2006 - LSU, Sweet 16, 54-62 -- What bothers me most about this loss is the way it continues to color our perceptions of what was one of the best regular-season Duke teams we've seen. This has to rank up there among the most disappointing losses in the K era.

Here's my order and some comments on others' picks.

1. 1986 - Louisville, Champ. Game, 69-72 (and it's not really even close)

2. 1998 - Kentucky, Elite 8, 84-86
3. 1994 - Arkansas, Champ Game, 72-76
4. 2004 - Connecticut, Final 4, 78-79 (Cheaters)
5. 2006 - LSU, Sweet 16, 54-62 (I think the OP had this one underrated. Just a terrible way for JJ and Shelden to go out and it tarnished an amazing season)

6. 2000 - Florida, Sweet 16, 78-87 (I think Kedsy and the OP underrate this loss. It was disappointing because of how much of a joy-ride that season had been. And, we were so close to winning -- if Jason's 3 pointer goes down with about 4 or minutes to go to put us up I think 7 or 8, we win. And, we'd probably have then beaten Oklahoma St. and Carolina to reach the title game).

7. 1999 - Connecticut, Champ. Game, 74-77 (I'm with Kedsy. This one didn't hurt me nearly as much as it seems to bug most Duke fans. We were favored by way too much -- the 8 or 9 points we gave that night and the 8.5 or so we gave Arizona in this year's tournament were the two silliest spreads I can remember in any Duke games -- and the team was, in my view, guilty of believing its own press clippings. U.Conn outplayed us that night. Plus, if we'd won, there would have been massive pressure to vacate the title since Corey was probably ineligible due to taking $ in high school.)

8. 2002 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 73-74 (I disagree with Kedsy about this one a bit. Yes, we were jobbed by some terrible calls, but we also did our best to give the game away with fat-headed play once we'd put it in cruise control. Plus, Maryland was probably better than we were anyway -- crushed us by 17 at Cole -- and, we'd won it the year before).

9. 1989 - Seton Hall, Final Four, 78-95
10. 2009 - Villanova, Sweet 16, 54-77
11. 1993 - California, Second Round, 77-82
12. 1988 - Kansas, Final Four, 59-66
13. 2007 - VCU, First Round, 77-79
14. 1985 - Boston College, Second Round, 74-75
15. 1990 - UNLV, Champ. Game, 73-103
16. 2011 - Arizona, Sweet 16, 77-93
17. 2005 - Michigan St, Sweet 16 68-78
18. 2008 - West Virginia, Second Round, 67-73
19. 1983 - Virginia, ACC Quarters, 66-109
20. 2003 - Kansas, Sweet 16, 65-69
21. 1997 - Providence, Second Round, 87-98
22. 1987 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 82-88
23. 1984 - Washington, Second Round, 78-80
24. 1996 - Eastern Michigan, First Round, 60-75
25. 1982 - Wake Forest, ACC Quarters, 53-88
26. 1981 - Purdue, NIT 3rd Round, 69-81

wsb3

07-23-2011, 06:02 AM

1986 Will always be the most crushing loss.
1999 Most athletically gifted Duke team ever.
1964 I was 7 and I cried big time when UCLA beat us.

weezie

07-23-2011, 06:50 AM

I cried after L'ville, 1986.....

Oh deac....me, too. I was there in the arena. What a complete stunner it was. The sense of utter bewilderment...

These scab-ripping off threads, oy!

jipops

07-23-2011, 07:58 AM

sagegrouse

07-23-2011, 09:28 AM

Let's see.... K has coached at Duke for 31 years (1981-2011). Because Duke won four National Championships and zero NIT's, there are 27 season-ending losses. Folks are only listing 26, omitting 1995. I suppose no. 27 is laid at the feet of Pete Gaudet, but K coached part of that season and was active in practice at the end.

So, for completeness:

27. 1995 Wake Forest ACC Quarters, 70-87

sagegrouse

DUKIE V(A)

07-23-2011, 10:01 AM

Suddenly, I am not feeling so well. I still lose sleep over many of these games. Don't know why 1999 doesn't hurt more (I am not sure I was ever REALLY attached to that team), but the ones that stand out to me are Louisville 86 (even though I was still in High School), Arkansas 94 (Duke had that game), UCONN 04 (Outplayed a better UCONN team for the majority of the game; Feel like this one was stolen by the zebras), Kentucky 98 (Huge blown lead against hated rival; How many carries did Turner get away with that game??), 02 Indiana (IU didn't belong on the same court as Duke), and 06 LSU and 11 Arizona (I loved those teams).

For me, the NCAA Tournament wins that stand out the most are 1989 Georgetown, 1991 UNLV and Kansas, 1992 Kentucky and Michigan, 1994 Purdue and Florida, 2001 Arizona, 2010 Baylor, WVU, and Butler. I feel better now.

Inspired by Reilly's suggestion, I offer the following list of season-ending losses under K, ordered by degree of difficulty (so to speak). Others, I'm sure, will disagree, but this should at least get the ball rolling (by the way, I'm sure I have a recency bias, both because of the closeness of certain events and because of age - while I was alive for all of these, I wasn't necessarily paying attention for most of the 80s):

1) 1986 - Louisville, Champ. Game, 69-71
2) 1999 - Connecticut, Champ. Game, 74-77
3) 1990 - UNLV, Champ. Game, 73-103
4) 1994 - Arkansas, Champ. Game, 72-76
5) 2004 - Connecticut, Final 4, 78-79
6) 1998 - Kentucky, Elite 8, 84-86
7) 2002 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 73-74
8) 1988 - Kansas, Final Four, 59-66
9) 2011 - Arizona, Sweet 16, 77-93
10) 1989 - Seton Hall, Final Four, 78-95
11) 2006 - LSU, Sweet 16, 54-62
12) 1987 - Indiana, Sweet 16, 82-88
13) 2009 - Villanova, Sweet 16, 54-77
14) 2000 - Florida, Sweet 16, 78-87
15) 2005 - Michigan St, Sweet 16 68-78
16) 1997 - Providence, Second Round, 87-98
17) 2008 - West Virginia, Second Round, 67-73
18) 1983 - Virginia, ACC Quarters, 66-109
19) 1993 - California, Second Round, 77-82
20) 1985 - Boston College, Second Round, 74-75
21) 2007 - VCU, First Round, 77-79
22) 1982 - Wake Forest, ACC Quarters, 53-88
23) 1981 - Purdue, NIT 3rd Round, 69-81
24) 1984 - Washington, Second Round, 78-80
25) 2003 - Kansas, Sweet 16, 65-69
26) 1996 - Eastern Michigan, First Round, 60-75

Rich

07-23-2011, 10:57 AM

Many people mentioned 1986 at the top of the list. As a Duke soph that year I would agree. Coincidentally, this article was in my local NJ paper this week: http://www.nj.com/hssports/blog/boysbasketball/index.ssf/2011/07/pervis_ellison_former_no_1_pick_returns_to_spotlig ht_with_coaching_gig_at_powerhouse_life_center_aca .html

OldPhiKap

07-23-2011, 11:13 AM

I'll go with '86 as well. I was fortunate enough to be there. I'll never forget the look on David Henderson's face after that loss. The team was fortunate enough to be there, but it just seemed like that group, the core of which having been together for 4 years, was meant to end their careers together with a title.

I was on the quad, with the Jumbotron. Worst night ever. We had the game won, and then there was a lid on the basket.

Worst night ever.

Mike Corey

07-23-2011, 11:16 AM

My dad always said the '78 loss to Kentucky was the most painful game he'd ever watched.

Gave up 41 points to one of Kentucky's all-time greats; Gene Banks had received a death threat prior to the game; but what would always make my normally-calm father lose his cool was recalling the technical foul that was administered in the crucial moments of the game.

For me, the '94 game was the most agonizing. I still can't believe that three-pointer went in. Our neighbors, who had been forced to put up with my dad and me running up and down the streets waving a Duke flag in '91 and '92, gathered outside our house and chanted "sooooooey!" in the game's aftermath.

The most agonizing loss I saw in person was the 2004 Final Four demise against UConn. A wonderful collection of talent for the good guys, we controlled that game until we got into foul trouble and stopped executing offensively. It felt like a slow suffocation for this fan.

Yet I wouldn't change a thing about those outcomes, because they've made all the wins all the sweeter.

Well, maybe I'd change the '04 outcome against UConn. I can't stand those guys. :)

pfrduke

07-23-2011, 11:29 AM

devildeac

07-23-2011, 12:12 PM

IrishDevil

07-23-2011, 12:13 PM

How can last years loss not be on the list? With Kyrie coming back I (and half the media) had practically placed us in the championship game. Beating Butler two years in a row would have been epic.
"The season that wasn't."
I will never, ever like Williams for his 24 point first half burst. I completely believe had it not been for him, we would be going for a three peat in 2012.
That will sting for a long time.

No doubt that last season's loss hurt.

To piggy back off something that Kedsy mentioned, however, how much a loss hurts can be a function of how foreseeable it is. Personally, I had sort of given up on the "season that never was" once it was clear Kyrie wasn't coming back in a couple of weeks after Butler. Then, things never seemed quite right after Kyrie came back, either. Resignation, more than outrage, characterized last year's loss for me.

The 2004 loss to UConn is certainly another candidate for such resignation. I was in Cameron watching the broadcast of that game, however, and that sucker hurt(s).

The talent we had on that team, Duhon's Willis Reed impersonation still resonating from the ACC championship game, the late lead we held, sitting in a place where earlier in that season there had been outstanding victories where the crowd really did feel like a part of the game, the helplessness as the fouls mounted and Okafor gradually consumed our lead, and the knowledge that UConn would win the NC since all that stood in their way was Big Bird Schensher - it still sticks in the craw.

Kedsy

07-23-2011, 01:33 PM

For me, the NCAA Tournament wins that stand out the most are 1989 Georgetown, 1991 UNLV and Kansas, 1992 Kentucky and Michigan, 1994 Purdue and Florida, 2001 Arizona, 2010 Baylor, WVU, and Butler. I feel better now.

The 2001 Final Four comeback from 22 down against Maryland doesn't make your list?

Mike Corey

07-23-2011, 01:46 PM

Which guys? The players or the refs?:mad:

As Yogi Berra once said, "Both. Equally."

hq2

07-23-2011, 04:38 PM

'86 Louisville, and '66 Kentucky. The first one was probably worst, because we had the better (but more tired) team, and should have won it, and lost it on a *&R%&*& airball. The second hurt about as much because that was the last time Duke had a really great team for more than a decade, and had Verga been healthy, we probably would have won. Note that both teams were from Kentucky; no love lost between Duke and the Bluegrass state. The '66 loss made Laettner's shot in '92 all the sweeter; paid in full, Kentucky!

jimsumner

07-23-2011, 05:06 PM

The 2001 Final Four comeback from 22 down against Maryland doesn't make your list?

1964 Michigan

1988 Temple

_Gary

07-23-2011, 06:55 PM

'99 is first on my list only because that was, to me at least, the most talented team ever assembled at Duke (and possibly one of the most talented college bball teams of all time). Had that team won the game as they should have (don't agree it was a pick 'em) it would have gone down in history as one of the top 2 or 3 greatest teams of all time. So that one hurt terribly.

'86 was a killer. Nothing more I can say about that one.

'98 hurt because of the huge lead given up to a hated rival, as well as the fact that I sincerely believe that was the championship game and had we won we'd have another banner hanging in Cameron right now.

'02 & '04 certainly were crushing blows and I don't think I'll ever get over either of them.

This last loss hurt only because I felt we never got to see Kyrie and the rest of the team at their peak.

Like some others here, '94 didn't hurt as much as I thought it would initially.

If I can mention the ladies, I have to say the loss to Maryland in the Finals a few years ago actually might have hurt more than any of the others I've mentioned. My daughters were so incredibly crushed by that one, and when they hurt I hurt. I still get sick to my stomach when I think about that game.

Gary

DUKIE V(A)

07-23-2011, 07:53 PM

The 2001 Final Four comeback from 22 down against Maryland doesn't make your list?

Don't know how I forgot that one; huge game, great comeback, crushing the spirits of a hated rival. I think the only fitting punishment for my forgetting will be to go down to the basement, dust off the VCR, and rewatch it. Here's to never forgetting!

Also, the 90 UConn and Arkansas games were great memories.

Nugget

07-23-2011, 08:05 PM

'99 is first on my list only because that was, to me at least, the most talented team ever assembled at Duke (and possibly one of the most talented college bball teams of all time). Had that team won the game as they should have (don't agree it was a pick 'em) it would have gone down in history as one of the top 2 or 3 greatest teams of all time. So that one hurt terribly.

Gary

I think you forget how good U.Conn was in 99. They only had 2 losses all season, spent more time than we did as #1 and had a better record against ranked opponents (12-2) than we did (9-2, including the loss to U.Conn.)

Their best wins (at #4 Stanford, at #10 St. John's in the regular season and in the Big East tournament, #9 Michigan St., #14 Ohio St. in the Final Four, at #14 Washington at #24 Syracuse)

stack up pretty closely with ours: #3 Kentucky, Michigan St in the regular season and Final Four, at St. John's in OT, plus conference sweeps of highly ranked but very young Maryland (with Stevie Francis as their star and the likes of Baxter, Dixon and Morris on the team but very green) and a very overrated Carolina team that turned Harold Arcenaux into The Show).

Kedsy

07-23-2011, 11:14 PM

I think you forget how good U.Conn was in 99. They only had 2 losses all season, spent more time than we did as #1 and had a better record against ranked opponents (12-2) than we did (9-2, including the loss to U.Conn.)

Yes, thank you. This is why I said the game should have been pick 'em. Going into the '99 championship game I could not understand why everyone was saying we were such big favorites. I kept saying to my friends and family that I hoped the team didn't believe that...

hq2

07-23-2011, 11:57 PM

Yeah, we agree on that one. Uconn was a pretty good team, and gave us serious matchup problems. On to a few other gut wrenchers.

How about Vegas '90 - total humiliation. Duke got laughed out of the gym. Most one sided championship loss of all time.

St. John's '79 - Black Sunday loss. The worst day in the history of the ACC. The team was fading and probably wouldn't have won it all (see Magic Johnson), but could still have made the final four.

Seton Hall '89 - had a 24-8 lead and still lost 94-78 with two (eventual) NPOYs and another NBA player (Abdelnaby) on the front line.

Indiana 2002 (mentioned before) - atrocious officiating, and we still could have won if Jason Williams had hit his free throws.

and last but not least, the totally unforgettable 12-10 loss to N.C. State in '67 in the ACC tournament. I have never, my entire life, forgiven Norm Sloan for that.

gam7

07-24-2011, 01:19 AM

Which guys? The players or the refs?:mad:

What frustrated me about the officiating was that the game was called so tightly for both teams that it guaranteed that the team with more front court depth (UConn) would win. But, I do think the game was called evenly. Remember, the same tight calls that fouled out our big guys were the same calls that sent Okafor to the bench with two fouls in the first five minutes of the game.

I think you forget how good U.Conn was in 99. They only had 2 losses all season, spent more time than we did as #1 and had a better record against ranked opponents (12-2) than we did (9-2, including the loss to U.Conn.)

And I can't find regular season box scores, but I believe Hamilton and/or Voskuhl missed at least one of UConn's regular season losses. When UConn was at full strength they were unbeaten or very nearly unbeaten. Having said that, I think Duke deserved to be the favorite. The big difference was quality depth. UConn relied heavily on their starting five. Duke was eight or nine deep.

Either way, this was my senior year and was extremely gut-wrenching.

hq2

07-24-2011, 11:31 AM

And I can't find regular season box scores, but I believe Hamilton and/or Voskuhl missed at least one of UConn's regular season losses. When UConn was at full strength they were unbeaten or very nearly unbeaten.

That is correct. At least one UConn loss was when one or both of them was out. The media had way underestimated Uconn; they should have come in at 34-1, about the same as Duke (note they only had two losses total!).

_Gary

07-24-2011, 03:58 PM

UConn was extremely good in '99. I'm not underestimating that at all when I look back at that game. In most any other year they would have, and should have, been a heavy favorite. But as great as they were that year, we were "all universe", if you would. We could have gone into that game undefeated ourselves, and we were indeed the better team. So I don't believe it should have been labeled or handicapped as a "pick 'em" game. It took Duke being off their game just a bit and one of the UConn players playing the game of his year (and possibly career) for them to sneak by us. Can't remember the Huskie who wouldn't miss (and he wasn't known for the hot shooting he displayed in that title game) but I know they played an almost flawless game. My one frustration with that '99 team is that I do believe, based on eye witness reports (I lived in Tampa at the time) that several of our players didn't take the game quite as seriously as they should have and were out partying in Ybor City too much and at too late an hour. But that's another story. I still think they were the best team in the nation that year and that, had they won, they'd have gone down in college basketball history as one of the Top 3 greatest teams in NCAA history.

Kedsy

07-24-2011, 04:51 PM

UConn was extremely good in '99. I'm not underestimating that at all when I look back at that game. In most any other year they would have, and should have, been a heavy favorite. But as great as they were that year, we were "all universe", if you would. We could have gone into that game undefeated ourselves, and we were indeed the better team. So I don't believe it should have been labeled or handicapped as a "pick 'em" game. It took Duke being off their game just a bit and one of the UConn players playing the game of his year (and possibly career) for them to sneak by us. Can't remember the Huskie who wouldn't miss (and he wasn't known for the hot shooting he displayed in that title game) but I know they played an almost flawless game.

The guy who scored 27 points for UConn in that game was Rip Hamilton, who was their star and leading scorer. You may be thinking of Ricky Moore, who was more of a defensive specialist and scored 13 first half points. He only shot 6 for 10, though, so I wouldn't say he "wouldn't miss."

I was at the game, and to me it didn't look like we were "off [our] game." It looked like they were just as good as we were. And considering they only had 2 losses to our 1, and that they actually spent more weeks as the #1 team in the country that year than we did, I will never understand why Duke was such a big favorite in that game.

Also, they shot 10 for 18 from the free throw line and had 16 turnovers against 11 assists, so I don't think it can be fairly said that they played an "almost flawless game." They just beat us.

UhOhMaggetteOs

07-24-2011, 04:57 PM

1999 Connecticut
.
.
.
.
.
.
2002 Indiana
2004 Connecticut

Does everyone realize that UConn over Duke '99 was the biggest upset point-spread wise in NCAA title game history? We were favored by 9.5, more than Georgetown was favored over 'Nova in '85. I have gone back and watched several games I have on DVD from that '99 season and it boggles my mind how they lost. **That night** Connecticut was as good as us. If we play them 9 more times, we would win 7 or 8. Rip wasn't why UConn won. I still remember thinking before the game give Rip his 20, stop everyone else and we win going away. Ricky freaking Moore going off in the first half - yes, a guy scoring 13 points in one half when over the season he averaged 6 PPG absoultely qualifies as going off - and us not reacting well to them doubling Brand literally every time he touched the ball did us in. I think some people like to give UConn too much credit to take away the sting. They were very good, but there was absolutely positively no doubt who the best team in the country was that season

Kedsy

07-24-2011, 05:05 PM

Does everyone realize that UConn over Duke '99 was the biggest upset point-spread wise in NCAA title game history? We were favored by about 10, more than Georgetown was favored over 'Nova in '85. I have gone back and watched several games I have on DVD from that '99 season and it boggles my mind how that team lost

According to some brief google research, Duke was favored over UConn by 9.5 and Georgetown was favored over Villanova also by 9.5, so it was the same, rather than more. It's possible some lines varied from the consensus, though.

The difference was Georgetown should have been favored by more than that over Nova, and Duke by a lot less over UConn.

hq2

07-24-2011, 05:15 PM

**That night** Connecticut was as good as us. If we play them 9 more times, we would win 7 or 8. Rip wasn't why UConn won. I still remember thinking before the game give Rip his 20+, stop everyone else and we win going away. Ricky freaking Moore going off in the first half and us not reacting well to them doubling Brand literally every time he touched the ball did us in.

I don't believe that. Duke had matchup problems with Uconn. They had a quicker backcourt than us, and none of our frontcourt players was a good shot. Uconn knew that, and concentrated on stopping Brand, and took their chances with Carrawell and Battier, who at that time was not yet a good shooter. And, they knew they could dribble around any of our backcourt defenders, including William Avery, who Ricky Moore had completely psyched out, being Avery's hometown childhood idol. In fact, if Langdon hadn't had a good shooting game, Uconn might have won by more.

UhOhMaggetteOs

07-24-2011, 05:19 PM

I don't believe that. Duke had matchup problems with Uconn. They had a quicker backcourt than us, and none of our frontcourt players was a good shot. Uconn knew that, and concentrated on stopping Brand, and took their chances with Carrawell and Battier, who at that time was not yet a good shooter. And, they knew they could dribble around any of our backcourt defenders, including William Avery, who Ricky Moore had completely psyched out, being Avery's hometown childhood idol. In fact, if Langdon hadn't had a good shooting game, Uconn might have won by more.

Oh, yeah....Khalid El-Amin sure was quick as a cat. Dude was probably the pudgiest point guard I've ever seen on a national title contending squad

Kedsy

07-24-2011, 05:27 PM

**That night** Connecticut was as good as us. If we play them 9 more times, we would win 7 or 8. Rip wasn't why UConn won. I still remember thinking before the game give Rip his 20, stop everyone else and we win going away. Ricky freaking Moore going off in the first half - yes, a guy scoring 13 points in one half when over the season he averaged 6 PPG absoultely qualifies as going off - and us not reacting well to them doubling Brand literally every time he touched the ball did us in. I think some people like to give UConn too much credit to take away the sting. They were very good, but there was absolutely positively no doubt who the best team in the country was that season

Everyone doubled Brand every time he touched the ball that year. He rarely passed out of the double team and still managed to win national player of the year. UConn's defense was more effective than the other teams, that's all. Because they were a really good defensive team.

Moore and Hamilton each scored 6 points more than their average that year. Trajan scored 8 more than his season average. We didn't lose because of Ricky Moore's offense. We lost because UConn held us to 18 points below our season ppg average. Because they were a really good defensive team.

I was saying all this stuff before the game, so it wasn't to lessen the sting. There were no Pomeroy ratings available then to give us defensive stats, but if you look at both ends of the court, UConn was pretty close to as good as we were.

HindsightI said both those things before the games in question. So it's not hindsight.

Reilly

07-24-2011, 05:28 PM

http://goduke.statsgeek.com/basketball-m/games/boxscore.php?gameid=19990329

I don't think it should've been a pick 'em. Duke had five NBA players on its roster (three are *still* playing), and the next year's ACC POY; I think UConn had three NBA players. At the time, I described it as UConn playing an A++ game, and Duke playing a B or B-minus game, and UConn won by 3. Still believe that.

wsb3

07-24-2011, 07:12 PM

I don't find the spreads comparable. No shot clock in the Nova- GTown game.

ncexnyc

07-24-2011, 07:41 PM

Two things about the 99 Championship game that still bother me. It took the whole 1st half for Coach K. to make the necessary adjustments to get Brand going. The second is the fact that Trajan brought the ball up for the final play of the game. Yes, I realize Avery's homeboy made William look really bad in that game, but with the way Trajan was playing that game having the ball in his hands made it easy for Uconn to defense him. I'd rather have let Avery drive to the hoop and if he found an open Langdon then fine and if not he could have taken it to the rack.

hq2

07-24-2011, 08:33 PM

Yes, I realize Avery's homeboy made William look really bad in that game, but with the way Trajan was playing that game having the ball in his hands made it easy for Uconn to defense him. I'd rather have let Avery drive to the hoop and if he found an open Langdon then fine and if not he could have taken it to the rack.

Yes, but the problem is that K tried that the year before against Kentucky, (remember?) and Avery didn't get it done. The way Moore was in Avery's head that game, no way he would have got a shot off against him, and K knew it. A better play (if possible) would have been to run Langdon off some screens to get a better look. I don't think it would have been easy, but might have worked better.

Kedsy

07-24-2011, 08:44 PM

I don't think it should've been a pick 'em. Duke had five NBA players on its roster (three are *still* playing), and the next year's ACC POY; I think UConn had three NBA players. At the time, I described it as UConn playing an A++ game, and Duke playing a B or B-minus game, and UConn won by 3. Still believe that.

Except the team with the most future NBA players is not always the best team.

2010 Kentucky had 7 or 8 NBA players on it, and couldn't even make the Final Four. Got blown out by a West Virginia team that had 1 or 2 NBA players. Butler, with 1 or 2 NBA players on it, made back-to-back NCAA finals.

Over the course of the 1999 season, based on performance, UConn was as good or almost as good as Duke.

And, finally, as I mentioned before, in the championship game, UConn shot 56% from the line and had a 0.69 assist to turnover ratio. Hardly "A++" material.

Reilly

07-24-2011, 09:18 PM

jimsumner

07-24-2011, 10:18 PM

Everyone doubled Brand every time he touched the ball that year. He rarely passed out of the double team and still managed to win national player of the year. UConn's defense was more effective than the other teams, that's all. Because they were a really good defensive team.

Moore and Hamilton each scored 6 points more than their average that year. Trajan scored 8 more than his season average. We didn't lose because of Ricky Moore's offense. We lost because UConn held us to 18 points below our season ppg average. Because they were a really good defensive team.

I was saying all this stuff before the game, so it wasn't to lessen the sting. There were no Pomeroy ratings available then to give us defensive stats, but if you look at both ends of the court, UConn was pretty close to as good as we were.

I said both those things before the games in question. So it's not hindsight.

Two other factors. '99 was one of K's best rebounding teams. UConn outrebounded Duke 38-27. And UConn's bench outscored Duke 17-8. Only six Duke players scored. Nine UConn players scored.

_Gary

07-25-2011, 12:29 AM

Does everyone realize that UConn over Duke '99 was the biggest upset point-spread wise in NCAA title game history? We were favored by 9.5, more than Georgetown was favored over 'Nova in '85. I have gone back and watched several games I have on DVD from that '99 season and it boggles my mind how they lost. **That night** Connecticut was as good as us. If we play them 9 more times, we would win 7 or 8. Rip wasn't why UConn won. I still remember thinking before the game give Rip his 20, stop everyone else and we win going away. Ricky freaking Moore going off in the first half - yes, a guy scoring 13 points in one half when over the season he averaged 6 PPG absoultely qualifies as going off - and us not reacting well to them doubling Brand literally every time he touched the ball did us in. I think some people like to give UConn too much credit to take away the sting. They were very good, but there was absolutely positively no doubt who the best team in the country was that season

There you go. It was Moore I was thinking of. And from what I remember, he was going off (for him). And your point about people wanting to take the sting out of this loss by building up UConn as our equal that year is spot on as well, IMHO. Kedsy and others may have said, before the game, that the matchup was even and so forth. I'm not here to dispute those claims in any way. But the vast majority of the viewing public for that NCAA basketball year felt Duke was a huge favorite for a reason. And they weren't wrong as far as I'm concerned. I still think it was a big upset, and it still blows me away that we lost that game.

Gary

gam7

07-25-2011, 02:36 AM

I don't believe that. Duke had matchup problems with Uconn. They had a quicker backcourt than us, and none of our frontcourt players was a good shot. Uconn knew that, and concentrated on stopping Brand, and took their chances with Carrawell and Battier, who at that time was not yet a good shooter.

Battier shot .545 from the field during the 1998-99 season, which was his highest season-long shooting percentage while at Duke, including .415 from 3-point range. He may not have been quite the high-volume shooter that he became later in his career, but by his sophomore year, he definitely was a good shooter.

hq2

07-25-2011, 09:31 AM

Yes, but that's somewhat misleading. A lot of those were layups or wide open jumpers, brought about because the defenses were too focused on Brand and Langdon. As a go-to-get-his-own-shot scorer, Battier was still developing, and was not used to carrying the team. In retrospect, it might have helped if he had shot more in the game, but that wasn't the game plan, nor had it been most of the year.

sagegrouse

07-25-2011, 09:42 AM

True, the team w/ the most talent is not always the best team. And sometimes it is. And sometimes it is, but loses the game anyway, due to the vagaries of the one and done tournament.

Not sure what all this 'SRS' is but in the absence of historical kenpom numbers it might give some sense of objective comparison. Duke was 34 (1st out of 310 teams) and UConn 24 for that year (3d, I believe it said):

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/DUKE/1999.html

FWIW the only two Final Four games where I was supremely confident of victory were the 1964 UCLA game and the 1999 UConn final. In 1964 we had just dismantled our nemesis Michigan in the semis and were facing an undefeated UCLA team viewed as untested by many with the largest starter only 6-5. Even after we fell behind something like 29-13, I still expected us to come back. Silly me, but I was a young man then.

Against UConn I thought that the 1999 Duke team was a team for the ages and far superior to anyone else in college basketball. I learned a lesson there -- there are no sure things in the Final Four. That helped a lot in watching the games in 2001, 2004, and 2010, and I sure wasn't "supremely confident" when trailing Maryland 38-16 in Minneapolis.

sagegrouse
'I did think we were the best team in 1966, but Verga's illness gave me pause before the tip-off'

HCheek37

07-25-2011, 12:56 PM

I was unfortunately in person for the LSU loss and Villanova beatdown. The LSU loss was significantly tougher to handle because of 3 reasons:
1) I was seated in the LSU section which before the game gave their team very little chance to win. As the game went on, the momentum built and they began to believe, and therefore became more and more obnoxious towards my sister and I. (18 and 16 years old at the time)
2) It was so frustrating to see JJ struggle due to the impressive D by Garret Temple. He just couldn't get anything to fall. Our seats were near the Duke tunnel, and seeing him basically carried off in tears hurt so much. I never wanted a title for an individual Duke player more.
3) Big Baby. Every time he drew a foul or hit a shot his reactions just twisted the knife a little bit more. Now, 5 years later I can see why people love Big Baby but it still sticks in my head seeing him scream and pump up the crowd near us.

Otherwise, the championship losses hurt the most. Arkansas, Uconn, Louisville, UNLV obviously its going to hurt when you are 1 win away from the ultimate crown. The game that I wasn't at that still hurts to this day is the 2004 Final Four game. Okafor just wouldn't be stopped and that one is still pretty painful. This past year I'd hoped for us to handle Arizona and finally shut down the rolling train that Uconn was but I guess K might have to wait a bit to get another shot at Calhoun in March/April.

Nugget

07-25-2011, 02:05 PM

There you go. It was Moore I was thinking of. And from what I remember, he was going off (for him). . . . Kedsy and others may have said, before the game, that the matchup was even and so forth. I'm not here to dispute those claims in any way. But the vast majority of the viewing public for that NCAA basketball year felt Duke was a huge favorite for a reason.

Gary

I think the point Kedsy and I (at least) were trying to make is that the "vast majority of the viewing public" was obviously wrong in seeing that game as a 10 point spread. That it tied Georgetown-Nova as the largest spread in an NCAA title game is (and was at the time) crazy -- Georgetown 85 was a giant, had been as dominating, if not more so, than our 99 team (albeit with lower point spreads bc of the lack of a clock, not having a great offense and playing in a tougher league than the 1999 ACC) and was playing a 6 seed Villanova that was an enormous Cinderalla and had swept them.

In contrast, U.Conn had been no worse than the #2 team in the country over the course of the 1999 season. I wouldn't have made it "pick-em," but we should never have been (absent the overhyping of that team) more than a 3-4 point favorite.

As far as the game itself, U.Conn played very well, but not out of their mind. Ricky Moore scored more than normal, especially as you note in the first half; but, only one of those was a 3.

They just played the better, tougher, smarter game that night - in particular, they repeatedly used high screens to get Elton into mismatches (we stubbornly stuck to the plan of switching every ball screen) that their guards exploited by going around Elton to either create open shots for others or allow U.Conn to take advantage of our being out of position to grab offensive rebounds -- their forwards Reggie Freeman (5) and Hamilton (4) had more ORs than Battier and C-Well had in total rebounds; and tiny El-Amin had 3 OR, which can only happen if our guys are badly out of position.

What most stands out to me from the box score -- and my memory of being there watching the horror show unfolding in front of me -- was how much easier it was for U.Conn to score than it was for us.

They played very good defense that night and really crashed the boards, especially Ricky Moore, who had 8 defensive rebounds; and while Vokuhl did not have a big night, he did yoeman's work boxing Elton out, holding him to just 2 ORs.

Between their good execution on offense, our struggles on offense and their resulting advantages on both the offensive and defense glass, they got more, and much easier, shots than we did.

They built up such a huge advantage on 2 point FGs, shooting 29-53 (55%) vs. 16-37 (43%) for us – 12% higher plus 16 more attempts -- that they outscored us by 26 points on regular buckets!!

Because it was otherwise an evenly played game (fouls even, they had only 4 more turnovers than we did), our being beaten up inside was too big a hole to climb out of via our advantages in free throws and 3 point shooting (especially since the non-Trajan guys went a pretty poor 2-9, 22%, from 3).

hq2

07-25-2011, 03:40 PM

Thanks for the stats. Gives good illumination to exactly what happened. In response to an earlier post, the 2004 loss to Uconn hurt about as much, because although not superior to them by any means (they had Emeka Okafor and Ben Gordon), we were clearly their equal. When we had an 8 point lead with about 3 some minutes to go and the ball, when we took a shot and it was in the air, I said to myself, if we hit this we win the championship (Tech on Monday was an afterthought...)... and we clanked it. As I recall, they scored every point from there on in, with Okafor destroying Horvath on every possession. A real heartbreaker.

Billy Dat

07-25-2011, 04:59 PM

-1999 was the worst for me, I loved that team. The only positive that came of out losing that game is that no one could claim it was tainted by the Myron Piggie/Maggette stuff that came out later.

-I can see why 1986 hurt so bad. The irony is, as an 8th Grader living in NY at the time, I had first become aware of college hoops via the locally grown McCray brothers from the early 80s Louisville teams. As such, I was rooting for Louisville that night - ah, the ignorance of youth.

-1998 featured my mother coming in the room as the lead shrunk to nothing and, amidst my screaming and ranting offered the ever helpful, "Jeez...it's only a game!" Good times on that one.

-2002 played out as my not yet one year old was having a complete meltdown as the second half progressed. My wife and I were living with my in laws as we did some work on our house and as my anger was building at what was happening on the court, my wife was yelling at me to "help with the baby" as my father-in-law was basically telling her to leave me alone, which was like pouring lemon juice on the paper cut. Without going into more details, the evening ended with my one and only married "night on the couch".

-2004, at a bachelor party in Vegas with a group of close friends, all of whom naturally hate Duke. As that game starts falling apart, I am repeatedly open hand smacking the hotel television set as my friends are cheering and mocking me. I leave them for the sports book where the game expires but bedlam ensues as Duhon's famous meaningless buzzer halfcourt shot beats the spread and people start throwing tantrums and celebrations in equal measure.

-2010 would have probably been the worst...I found it hard to celebrate for several minutes after that game ended, it had been such an emotional roller coaster.

Thanks for the memories, fellas.

Reilly

07-25-2011, 05:12 PM

I think the point Kedsy and I (at least) were trying to make is that the "vast majority of the viewing public" was obviously wrong in seeing that game as a 10 point spread. That it tied Georgetown-Nova as the largest spread in an NCAA title game is (and was at the time) crazy -- Georgetown 85 was a giant, had been as dominating, if not more so, than our 99 team .........

What do you make of the SRS numbers. I'm not sure -- but are they like Sagarin, where you subtract one from another to get the spread the computer would fashion?

1985 G'town SRS 20.88 (1st out of 282 teams)
1985 'Nova SRS 11.99 (24th out of 282 teams)
difference: 8.89

1999 Duke SRS 34.80 (1st out of 310 teams)
1999 UConn SRS 24.74 (3d out of 310 teams)
difference: 10.06

'85 G'town and '99 Duke were the two dominant teams -- the computer agrees.
UConn was #3 in the country, but 'Nova #24, so 'Nova more of an upset in that regard.
Vegas set the '85 and '99 lines similarly.
If I'm reading the SRS correctly, the computer picked G'town by 9 and Duke by 10.

edit: here's the link for SRS .... http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/GTWN/1985.html

Reilly

07-25-2011, 05:37 PM

1985 G'town had 10 losses + wins by less than 10 pts:
-2 (Nova), -2 (Syr), -1 (SJU), +2 (BC), +2(Nova), +5(NCA&T), +6(GT), +7(Nova), +8(New Mex), +9(Syr)

1999 UConn had 10 losses + wins by less than 10 pts:
-17(Syr), -2(Miami), +1(SHall), +4(SJU), +5(UMass), +5(SHall), +5(Zaga), +6(OSU),+7(Prov), +7(G'town)

1999 Duke had 6 losses + wins by less than 10 pts:
-3(UConn), -2(Cincy), +4(SJU), +6(MSU), +6(MSU), +8(GT)

1985 G'town had 6 games either loss or win by 5 or less.
1999 UConn had 7 games either loss or win by 5 or less.
1999 Duke had 3 games either loss or win by 5 or less.

juise

07-25-2011, 07:33 PM

Reilly

07-25-2011, 07:38 PM

Makes sense to me. Suspected I'd miss something(s).

1985 G'town had 10 losses + wins by less than 10 pts:
-2 (Nova), -2 (Syr), -1 (SJU), +2 (BC), +2(Nova), +5(NCA&T), +6(GT), +7(Nova), +8(New Mex), +9(Syr)

1999 UConn had 11 losses + wins by less than 10 pts:
-17(Syr), -2(Miami), +1(SHall), +3(Duke), +4(SJU), +5(UMass), +5(SHall), +5(Zaga), +6(OSU),+7(Prov), +7(G'town)

1999 Duke had 6 losses + wins by less than 10 pts:
-3(UConn), -2(Cincy), +4(SJU), +6(MSU), +6(MSU), +8(GT)

1985 G'town had 6 games either loss or win by 5 or less.
1999 UConn had 8 games either loss or win by 5 or less.
1999 Duke had 3 games either loss or win by 5 or less.

juise

07-25-2011, 08:02 PM

Makes sense to me. Suspected I'd miss something(s).

I missed a comma in my post, so no worries.

It's a good analysis of relative dominance, I think.

Reilly

07-25-2011, 08:46 PM

1993 Cal 13.19
1999 UConn 10.06
2002 Indiana 9.73
2007 VCU 9.40
1997 Providence 8.54
2011 Arizona 7.96
1988 Kansas 7.52
1985 BC 7.39
1998 Kentucky 6.61
1996 EMU 4.52
2006 LSU 4.23
1989 Seton Hall 4.03
2008 WVA 3.55
2004 UConn 3.05
2009 Nova 2.64
1984 Washington 2.58
2005 MSU 2.54
2000 Florida 2.08
1986 L'ville 1.40
1981 Purdue -0.32
1990 UNLV -3.11
1995 WFU -3.20
1987 Indiana -3.80
1994 Arkansas -4.68
2003 Kansas -5.13
1982 WFU -14.21
1983 UVA -18.98

This is the list of relative heartbreak, ordered by the difference in the final SRS on basketball-reference.com.

I agree with the many factors folks have listed (was Duke expected to win, when in the post-season did the loss take place, were you in attendance).

To me, the "was Duke expected to win" is generally the largest factor in personal heartbreak. When I first saw the topic, my two all-time "hardest to take, still tick me off" are 1999 UConn and 2002 Indiana. When I checked the SRS, they were 2 of the top 3, so it confirmed for me that the "was Duke expected to win" factor predominates for me. They also had the "when in the post-season" factor going for them, as they were the national champ game and the sweet 16 w/ a chance for a repeat.

The list makes sense to me: we weren't supposed to win in 1983 or 1982 or 1995, and those are at the bottom. I was not at all surprised/hurt in 1987 or 1990, and those are at the bottom as well.

When I started looking up the SRS, I thought 1999 UConn would lead; was surprised that 1993 Cal was the biggest spread/disappointment-based-on-expectation.

hq2

07-25-2011, 09:20 PM

"hardest to take, still tick me off" are 1999 UConn and 2002 Indiana.

The Indiana game was so bad not because of expectations, but because it was atrociously officiated. It was a blatant home whistle which allowed the Indiana players to hack with impunity while the Duke players were called for everything. It was one of the worst officiated college games I've ever seen. It was so bad that Matt Christensen screamed at the refs in the tunnel after the game. That's why it was so hard to take.

Actually, I'd say '83 Virginia was a pretty tough one to take too. That was the game where Virginia beat us by more than 40 points and Ralph Sampson laughed at us. As I recall, he slammed one in that game that bounced off Jay Bilas's head. Now that was hard to take!

Reilly

07-25-2011, 09:24 PM

Kedsy

07-25-2011, 11:52 PM

What do you make of the SRS numbers. I'm not sure -- but are they like Sagarin, where you subtract one from another to get the spread the computer would fashion?

I don't know much about the SRS other than reading the explanation on the link you provided. It appears to be similar to Sagarin except Sagarin purports to employ a diminishing returns principle for large margins, and SRS doesn't, essentially meaning the SRS rewards teams that run up the score. Thing is, the main reason people thought Duke was so much better than UConn that year was because Duke railroaded the rest of the ACC and did it with a very large scoring margin. So, of course the SRS would "confirm" the impression.

Is that legitimate? I don't know. Is Duke beating UVa 100-54 that much more impressive than UConn beating Villanova 100-76? Maybe, maybe not, but it would certainly pump up the SRS a lot more.

Ultimately, I don't think this debate can be settled by the SRS, or possibly by any other means available to us. It is what it is, and we'll each have to remember it however we choose to remember it.

UrinalCake

07-26-2011, 01:02 PM

They just played the better, tougher, smarter game that night - in particular, they repeatedly used high screens to get Elton into mismatches (we stubbornly stuck to the plan of switching every ball screen)

Part of what kills me about that game is that Coach K arguably got outcoached that night. In an interview with both head coaches the day before the game, a reporter asked Calhoun what his strategy would be and he joked that he would ask Elton to guard the point guard. Everyone had a big laugh about it. And then that's EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. They'd set a simple pick at the top of the key, without even really driving toward the basket, and we'd switch, leaving Brand to guard El-Amin. Also we refused to play a zone defense as Hamilton tore us apart. I know many would argue that Duke simply doesn't play zone and our players hadn't practiced it all year, but at least throwing it out there for a couple possessions might have disrupted his rhythm. Prior to the game many felt that if we could get their center, Jake Voskhul, into early foul trouble we'd be able to run over them because they didn't have anyone else to defend inside. We did draw a foul on him within the first couple minutes, but then just went away from that whole strategy.

1999 was my senior year and would have culminated an amazing four-year journey from relative mediocrity back to the top of the basketball world. While we would get that redemption two years later, at the time it really felt like that title was our destiny.

Nugget

07-26-2011, 02:22 PM

What do you make of the SRS numbers. I'm not sure -- but are they like Sagarin, where you subtract one from another to get the spread the computer would fashion?

1985 G'town SRS 20.88 (1st out of 282 teams)
1985 'Nova SRS 11.99 (24th out of 282 teams)
difference: 8.89

1999 Duke SRS 34.80 (1st out of 310 teams)
1999 UConn SRS 24.74 (3d out of 310 teams)
difference: 10.06

'85 G'town and '99 Duke were the two dominant teams -- the computer agrees.
UConn was #3 in the country, but 'Nova #24, so 'Nova more of an upset in that regard.
Vegas set the '85 and '99 lines similarly.
If I'm reading the SRS correctly, the computer picked G'town by 9 and Duke by 10.

edit: here's the link for SRS .... http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/schools/GTWN/1985.html

My, purely subjective, view is that 1999 was a weak year in the ACC and a strong year in the Big East, so I suspect that explains part of the bigger difference in strength between #1 and #3 in 1999 vs. #1 and #24 in 1985 was

jimsumner

07-26-2011, 03:00 PM

2002 Indiana was *both* in my opinion. We were so much better than them, we should have been able to beat them 5 on 8. And almost did. We had a 5-point lead and the ball w/ 2:41 left, I believe. So much better, late lead with the ball .... and horrible refs. All equals heartbreak.

There's no doubt in my mind that Boozer was fouled at the end of the IU game.

But. Duke jumped to a big early lead and put it in cruise control. Indiana won that game because they were tougher than Duke, physically, mentally and emotionally tougher. It should never have been close enough at the end for one non-call to decide it.

Duke just got outworked.

IMO.

NSDukeFan

07-26-2011, 04:43 PM

hq2

07-26-2011, 05:56 PM

But. Duke jumped to a big early lead and put it in cruise control. Indiana won that game because they were tougher than Duke, physically, mentally and emotionally tougher. It should never have been close enough at the end for one non-call to decide it.

It wasn't one non-call, it was a lot of them. I don't usually believe in blaming refs, as that's being a poor sport, but in that one game, there's no doubt but that Duke got hosed. Under a fair whistle, we win that one going away.

jimsumner

07-26-2011, 10:07 PM

It wasn't one non-call, it was a lot of them. I don't usually believe in blaming refs, as that's being a poor sport, but in that one game, there's no doubt but that Duke got hosed. Under a fair whistle, we win that one going away.

Officials agree that the more aggressive team tends to get the calls. That's usually Duke. On that night, it was Indiana.

DukieInKansas

07-26-2011, 10:51 PM

I would have to go with the '88 and '03 losses to Kansas. Of course, I live here and need to put up with the obnoxiousness. I was at the '03 game with KU tickets and staying in the KU team hotel. The fans on the bus to the game were so obnoxious to the bus driver that it was embarrassing - I apologized for their behavior and proudly displayed my Duke shirt to her. Of course, I also told 'Ol Roy and the AD that I wasn't there to root for KU.

wsb3

07-27-2011, 08:46 AM

There's no doubt in my mind that Boozer was fouled at the end of the IU game.

No doubts about the foul. In fact as I recall the Indiana player in question was quoted after the game as saying yes he pretty much grabbed Boozer, but the next day when actually sympathetic Carolina fans asked me about the call and did it cost us the game my response was, "We should have never been in that position." I never blamed the game on that call.

Highlander

07-27-2011, 09:49 AM

Part of what kills me about that game is that Coach K arguably got outcoached that night. In an interview with both head coaches the day before the game, a reporter asked Calhoun what his strategy would be and he joked that he would ask Elton to guard the point guard. Everyone had a big laugh about it. And then that's EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED. They'd set a simple pick at the top of the key, without even really driving toward the basket, and we'd switch, leaving Brand to guard El-Amin. Also we refused to play a zone defense as Hamilton tore us apart.

Yep, I remember seeing them switch Brand on El Amin over and over and over again, and we never adjusted. I also remember that Trajan was the main one keeping us in that game. People focus on the last play at the end, but had Trajan not knoced down shot after shot, we never would have been in it at the end. Battier, Avery, and Carawell did next to nothing, and Maggette couldn't get into the game to try. Asking Trajan to create his own shot against Moore wasn't a great call, but so little else was working I'm not sure if anything else would have succeeded at anything other than making someone else the goat.

Still, '99 doesn't bother me. I was at the game, and had an absolutely incredible weekend with friends. My seats were incredible (I was in Laettner's section sitting next to the Mizzou coach and a row or two in front of Capel and Sweaty Gary). After the game, I remember quickly walking down the temporary stairs to see my fiance in the band before she boarded the bus. Before I rounded the corner, I was smiling to myself thinking "If I'm going to be DISAPPOINTED in a 37-2 season where we went 19-0 thru the ACC and made the Final Four, maybe my standards are a little too high. This was a GREAT year by every measure save one."

'04 is a different story. I almost never think officials cost us the game, but I will never be over this game. I don't think the officials were biased towards UConn, but they called a horrible game on both sides. The game we all wanted to see was Okafor matching up with Williams. Instead, Okafor spent most of the first half on the bench, while Williams spent most of the second half riding the pine. Before the game I expected UConn to win, but our surprisingly strong game gave me hope that we could pull it out. To have that ripped away due to late foul trouble was the hardest part. For the life of me, I can't tell you what Randolph did to deserve 5 fouls in that game. After the game, I called a buddy of mine to say "We got hosed."

'86 I can't really even put into words. That team deserved to win a championship moreso than any other Duke team who fell short. Cried myself to sleep that night at the ripe old age of 10.

'90 and '94 I thought we were incredibly lucky just to be there, and wasn't surprised when we fell short (I'm still not sure how the '94 team made it to the championship, to be honest). Most of the other years don't phase me too much in retrospect, although I'll die happy if I never have to watch the '90 UNLV, '06 LSU, '09 Villanova, or '11 Arizona games again.

Highlander

07-27-2011, 10:02 AM

Battier, Avery, and Carrawell did next to nothing, and Maggette couldn't get into the game to try.

For some reason, it won't let me edit, but in retrospect I would probably remove Avery from my list after looking at the box score. 11 points, 5 assists, 1 TO is not a bad line for a point guard. He didn't defend well in the game, and he didn't shoot particularly well (3-12), but he contributed offensively OK.

Reilly

07-27-2011, 12:03 PM

The following was spurred by the discussion of the 1999 Duke/UConn game above. As stated above, that’s the loss that hurts the most for me, and my sense is that this is so it b/c we were supposed to win (moreso than other season-ending losses). Other posts above note that we should not have been so favored (that the conventional wisdom was wrong and the Vegas line mentioned above (9.5) was too high).

I found the “SRS” on www.basketball-reference.com that indicates we should have won/been favored by 10. The historical final Sagarin rankings on USAToday pegs us as a 7.30 point favorite.

Of the 13 final games from 1999-2011, SRS indicates 1999 should have been our second easiest game of the thirteen.
Of the 13 final games from 1999-2011, the final Sagarin rankings indicate 1999 should have been our easiest game of the thirteen.

Kenpom does not go back to 1999. One question: if we look at the final Kenpom rankings for this year or any year he does have (back to 2003), how would won figure the predictor score if any two teams were to play? Is that formula a secret?

Anyway, I don’t know much/anything about math, or the math behind these various ratings systems. I do find them fun to look at, and Kenpom seems uncanny at times in predicting what may happen.

I was curious as to the consistency of ranking between SRS, Kenpom, and Sagarin over the years. I was interested in seeing if SRS, Kenpom and Sagarin each valued us, and our final opponent, pretty equally. They seem to be pretty consistent in their pecking orders.

All in all, I trust Kenpom (don’t know why, as I don’t know the math), and I didn’t know whether I should trust SRS, and wanted to see how what SRS said about us over the years matched up with what Kenpom said.

Final Ranking listed in order of SRS, Kenpom, Final Sagarin, Predictor Sagarin

2011
Duke is 2, 2, 3, 2
Ariz is 18, 24, 16, 19
Duke to win by: 7.96 (SRS), 4.18 (Final Sagarin), 6.70 (Predictor Sagarin)

2010
Duke is 1, 1, 1, 1
Butler is 28, 12, 8, 17
Duke to win by: 10.89 (SRS), 6.18 (Final Sagarin), 8.34 (Predictor Sagarin)

2009
Duke is 6, 11, 6, 7
Nova is 14, 14, 10, 13
Duke to win by: 2.64 (SRS), 0.36 (Final Sagarin), 0.85 (Predictor Sagarin)

2008
Duke is 5, 8, 7, 6
WVa is 13, 19, 16, 8
Duke to win by: 3.75 (SRS), 2.44 (Final Sagarin), 1.59 (Predictor Sagarin)

2007
Duke is 11, 11, 19, 11
VCU is 68, 66, 53, 60
Duke to win by: 9.40, 3.94, 6.26

2006
Duke is 2, 5, 1, 1
LSU is 10, 10, 7, 8
Duke to win by: 4.23 (SRS), 3.54 (Final Sagarin), 4.63 (Predictor Sagarin)

2005
Duke is 3, 3, 4, 3
MSU is 7, 7, 5, 6
Duke to win by: 2.54 (SRS), 0.95 (Final Sagarin), 1.93 (Predictor Sagarin)

2004
Duke is 1, 1, 1, 1
UConn is 3, 2, 2, 2
Duke to win by: 3.05 (SRS), 0.44 (Final Sagarin), 2.51 (Predictor Sagarin)

2003
Duke is 6, 9, 8, 8
Kanas is 1, 1, 3, 1
Duke to win by: -5.14 (SRS), -2.95 (Final Sagarin), -5.28 (Predictor Sagarin)

2002
Duke is 1, n/a, 1, 1
Indiana is 9, n/a, 9, 8
Duke to win by: 9.73 (SRS), 7.08 (Final Sagarin), 9.38 (Predictor Sagarin)

2001
Duke is 1, n/a, 1, n/a
Ariz is 2, n/a, 4, n/a
Duke to win by: 5.37 (SRS), 4.96 (Final Sagarin), n/a (Predictor Sagarin)

2000
Duke is 2, n/a, 4, n/a
Florida is 5, n/a, 5, n/a
Duke to win by: 2.08 (SRS), 2.04 (Final Sagarin), n/a (Predictor Sagarin)

1999
Duke is 1, n/a, 1, n/a
UConn is 3, n/a, 2, n/a
Duke to win by: 10.06 (SRS), 7.30 (Final Sagarin), n/a (Predictor Sagarin)

“Easiest” Victory to Hardest Victory (1999-2011), per ...

SRS FinalSag

2010 1999
1999 2002
2002 2010
2007 2001
2011 2011
2006 2007
2001 2006
2008 2008
2004 2000
2009 2005
2005 2004
2000 2009
2003 2003

“Easiest” Victory to Hardest Victory (2002-2011), per ...

SRS FnlS PredictS
2010 2002 2002
2002 2010 2010
2007 2011 2011
2011 2007 2007
2006 2006 2006
2008 2008 2004
2004 2005 2005
2009 2004 2008
2005 2009 2009
2003 2003 2003

hq2

07-27-2011, 04:38 PM

Trajan was the main one keeping us in that game. People focus on the last play at the end, but had Trajan not knoced down shot after shot, we never would have been in it at the end. Battier, Avery, and Carawell did next to nothing, and Maggette couldn't get into the game to try. Asking Trajan to create his own shot against Moore wasn't a great call, but so little else was working I'm not sure if anything else would have succeeded at anything other than making someone else the goat.

I think that about gets it right. Hard to say if maybe K wasn't outcoached in that game; I mean, with Brand being doubled, some of the other guys were getting decent looks, and it didn't look like we were running plays for them. As for Maggette not playing that much, K didn't have that much confidence in either his shot or his decision making, both of which were still at a freshman level. Who knows. If Langdon had scored on the last possession, we probably never would have debated any of this stuff.

Billy Dat

07-27-2011, 05:17 PM

I think that about gets it right. Hard to say if maybe K wasn't outcoached in that game; I mean, with Brand being doubled, some of the other guys were getting decent looks, and it didn't look like we were running plays for them. As for Maggette not playing that much, K didn't have that much confidence in either his shot or his decision making, both of which were still at a freshman level. Who knows. If Langdon had scored on the last possession, we probably never would have debated any of this stuff.

As I haven't ever been able to stomach watching a replay of that game I can't definitively say the following, but I've always felt that Calhoun outcoached K in 99 and 04, which makes those losses even worse. As for the last play, I wish Trajan had just pulled up for a fallaway after putting the ball between his legs those few times instead of continuing his drive. Brand had solid weakside rebounding position....

sagegrouse

07-27-2011, 05:28 PM

As I haven't ever been able to stomach watching a replay of that game I can't definitively say the following, but I've always felt that Calhoun outcoached K in 99 and 04, which makes those losses even worse. As for the last play, I wish Trajan had just pulled up for a fallaway after putting the ball between his legs those few times instead of continuing his drive. Brand had solid weakside rebounding position....

I ain't watching no stinking replay of 1999 either. I only had three thoughts about the game at the time: Falling behind 13-3, thanks to the shooting of Ricky Moore, was a dagger. Yeah, I know, we were ahead at the half, but all the points count. I thought Elton played a really dumb game by not passing out of the double-teams (and some of them were triple teams). I know he could play 1-on-2 during the regular season, but it wasn't working against UConn. Three, I thought Maggette should have been in the game on the last two offensive plays. No one on UConn could guard him.

UConn deserved the win in 1999, unlike in 2004, which according to some NCAA insiders was the worst-refereed game in the history of the Final Four. Would Duke have won if Shel were allowed to play his normal game? I dunno, because Okafor sat out much of the first half on ticky-tack calls. But the refs swallowed the whistle when JJ was slammed to the floor on what would have been tying points in the last minute.

sagegrouse

hq2

07-27-2011, 06:13 PM

UConn deserved the win in 1999, unlike in 2004, which according to some NCAA insiders was the worst-refereed game in the history of the Final Four. Would Duke have won if Shel were allowed to play his normal game? I dunno, because Okafor sat out much of the first half on ticky-tack calls. But the refs swallowed the whistle when JJ was slammed to the floor on what would have been tying points in the last minute.

sagegrouse

I agree that was a poorly officiated game. Unlike Indiana 2002, however, I didn't remember it being all that biased; I think there were just a lot of bad or no calls both ways. Hard to say if it really decided the game.

wsb3

07-27-2011, 06:19 PM

I ain't watching no stinking replay of 1999 either. I only had three thoughts about the game at the time: Falling behind 13-3, thanks to the shooting of Ricky Moore, was a dagger. Yeah, I know, we were ahead at the half, but all the points count. I thought Elton played a really dumb game by not passing out of the double-teams (and some of them were triple teams). I know he could play 1-on-2 during the regular season, but it wasn't working against UConn. Three, I thought Maggette should have been in the game on the last two offensive plays. No one on UConn could guard him.

UConn deserved the win in 1999, unlike in 2004, which according to some NCAA insiders was the worst-refereed game in the history of the Final Four. Would Duke have won if Shel were allowed to play his normal game? I dunno, because Okafor sat out much of the first half on ticky-tack calls. But the refs swallowed the whistle when JJ was slammed to the floor on what would have been tying points in the last minute.

sagegrouse

I saw a fellow die hard Carolina Beach Duke fan as i am soon after the 99 game and I remember him being furious about Maggette playing only 3 minutes in the second half..I can't substantiate that but it sounds about right as he had 11 minutes for the game.

sagegrouse

07-27-2011, 07:47 PM

I agree that was a poorly officiated game. Unlike Indiana 2002, however, I didn't remember it being all that biased; I think there were just a lot of bad or no calls both ways. Hard to say if it really decided the game.

I agree: this game should have been a do-over with new refs. The no-call on JJ at the end was so crucial that I believe Duke got the worst of the officiating.

sagegrouse

hq2

07-27-2011, 07:53 PM

jimsumner

07-27-2011, 07:57 PM

What I remember was Shelden and Shav fouling out, leaving Okafor to score at will down the stretch.
I don't think one call on J.J. would have saved things; the team didn't score at all in the last 3 minutes.
Once our front line was gone, I felt the outcome was almost a foregone conclusion. Who knows; if
Okafor hadn't got that second foul early, Uconn might never have fallen behind. In the end, who can say?

Horvath also fouled out. Williams, Randolph and Horvath combined for 40 minutes and 15 fouls. A most curious stat line. In contrary to my feelings about '02 IU, I do think game-officiating over 40 minutes did play a major role in the outcome of this game.

Newton_14

07-27-2011, 08:03 PM

I agree: this game should have been a do-over with new refs. The no-call on JJ at the end was so crucial that I believe Duke got the worst of the officiating.

sagegrouse

It wasn't just that call either. With Duke up 6 with less than 3 min to go, JJ drove into the middle of the lane for a pullup, and got both arms literally hacked/pulled down. Instead of going to the line to put us back up 8, UConn gets the steal and scores to cut it to 4. That 4-point swing was crucial at that point. After going up 8 with 3 to go, we took one bad shot, which was Deng's 3 attempt. Other than that, the guys attempted to drive, got fouled, with nothing called. Easily the worst officiated FF game I have ever witnessed, don't care who was playing. As someone else noted, Shav got totally hosed in a game where he could have easily have been the MVP given how he played.

Nugget

07-27-2011, 08:36 PM

I think Calhoun outcoached Coach K pretty badly in 99, but not in 04.

Really, wasn't the only questionable thing Coach K may have done in 04 was leave Shelden in for too long with 3 fouls. But, I think that was a totally defensible move -- they were the stronger team and Calhoun could afford to keep Okafor on the bench more than we could afford having Shel out of the game; while we ended up being massively outscored down the stretch once Shel fouled out, I think it is just as likely the same thing would have happened if he had been pulled earlier when he had 2 or 3 fouls.

I do think we got by far the worst of the officiating in the 04 U.Conn game. Yes, there was lots of hoo-ha about Okafor getting the two early fouls. But, after that, basically all of the 10 or 12 "close" or "bad" calls the rest of the way went against us.

UhOhMaggetteOs

07-28-2011, 11:23 AM

I ain't watching no stinking replay of 1999 either. I only had three thoughts about the game at the time: Falling behind 13-3, thanks to the shooting of Ricky Moore, was a dagger. Yeah, I know, we were ahead at the half, but all the points count. I thought Elton played a really dumb game by not passing out of the double-teams (and some of them were triple teams). I know he could play 1-on-2 during the regular season, but it wasn't working against UConn. Three, I thought Maggette should have been in the game on the last two offensive plays. No one on UConn could guard him.

UConn deserved the win in 1999, unlike in 2004, which according to some NCAA insiders was the worst-refereed game in the history of the Final Four. Would Duke have won if Shel were allowed to play his normal game? I dunno, because Okafor sat out much of the first half on ticky-tack calls. But the refs swallowed the whistle when JJ was slammed to the floor on what would have been tying points in the last minute.

sagegrouse

This is why people need to go back and watch the games. We actually jumped all over UConn and were up 11-2 after two Avery free throws and it looked like we could blow the game open, like most had gone that season, and then we made a boneheaded turnover passing between 3 guys at halfcourt (had a few of those early in the game that were just stupid). Around that time is when Ricky Moore started to go unconscious. He made a couple hustle plays for baskets but when he pulled up for 3 on a secondary break with Battier or Maggette right in his face you knew it was mono a mono.

It was '04 where we fell behind 15-4 and then Okafor got two and we were off to the races