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licc85
07-18-2011, 03:20 AM
Been discussing this with just about every Duke fan I know (not too many here in Lexington), and it seems like everyone has a different opinion on this. So, the question is, who will make the majority of the starts at PG, assuming nobody gets hurt?

Out of four potential candidates . . . I think TT starts out the year at point guard. He's our best backcourt defender, is very vocal, is capable of handling ball pressure, has a pass first mentality, and has a year under his belt with a few starts thrown in for good measure. On top of that, Nolan and Kyle both think TT is the guy.

That said, I voted for Quinn, who I speculate will overtake whoever it is for the spot sometime during the year because of his ability to get in the paint and either find teammates or score. He's also a better outside shooter than TT in my opinion. But he is a freshman, and with him starting, that could mean an undersized starting lineup with 3 guards . . . so I could be completely wrong.

I have no idea who actually will run this team. Seth and Austin are both definitely capable of handling the point as well. Thus, I decided to get the DBR community's take on this. I realize there's a thread dedicated to the whole starting lineup, but I think the point guard position is pretty wide open when compared to the other spots, and I wanted to do poll just to see some solid numbers.

akhan786
07-18-2011, 03:44 AM
I'd say Austin because of the fact that the ball would be in his hands the most.

I think he is fully capable of running a team only when there is enough talent around him.

And we have a lot of talent :cool:

DukieInBrasil
07-18-2011, 06:30 AM
I think Curry will start and be called the PG, even though he is better suited to being a SG. Rivers will also likely start and be called a SG, even though, as mentioned earlier, he may have the ball in his hands the most during the attacking part of the offense I don't think he'll be called a PG. I also think Dawkins starts, his 3pt shooting is just too good and he has great athleticism too (which an improved handle would help him utilize better). I just don't think there's enough space to start another G with those 3.
We all know K doesn't have positions and such and that regardless of who starts they will simply be labeled as "G", not PG or SG or whatever.
I think TT gets a couple of starts if K wants to send a wake up message to a lagging starter or if there is a specific match-up to take advantage of. I haven't seen Cook at all, so i'll refrain from making any predictions about him.

CDu
07-18-2011, 09:52 AM
I agree with DukieInBrasil. I think Curry and Rivers will start and share the ballhandling duties (with Rivers getting the ball a LOT). I would love to see Cook or Thornton push those guys though and potentially win a starting job. If all four are playing at a high level, that's a good thing.

OZZIE4DUKE
07-18-2011, 10:16 AM
I think Curry will start and be called the PG, even though he is better suited to being a SG. Rivers will also likely start and be called a SG, even though, as mentioned earlier, he may have the ball in his hands the most during the attacking part of the offense I don't think he'll be called a PG. I also think Dawkins starts, his 3pt shooting is just too good and he has great athleticism too (which an improved handle would help him utilize better). I just don't think there's enough space to start another G with those 3.
We all know K doesn't have positions and such and that regardless of who starts they will simply be labeled as "G", not PG or SG or whatever.
I think TT gets a couple of starts if K wants to send a wake up message to a lagging starter or if there is a specific match-up to take advantage of. I haven't seen Cook at all, so I'll refrain from making any predictions about him.
Barring some surprisingly fantastic developments in China and the early season practices, this is how I see the year starting as well. Curry, the more experienced hand, the starting PG, with Rivers the off guard and 'Dre' at the 3, but like with all our teams with 2 (or more) great guards, what you call them doesn't matter, they will all play a ton of minutes and score a boatload of points for us. I sure hope they do anyway! :cool: Tyler and Quin will earn their minutes as the situation and their talents demand.

licc85
07-18-2011, 10:20 AM
Hm, I'm actually a bit surprised how strongly everyone collectively agrees on Seth . . I think DukieInBrasil skewed the voting with his post :p

It makes a lot of sense though, although I just don't know why I'm not as comfortable with Dre as a starter as everyone else . . . he's a crazy good shooter, but he hasn't shown me a great deal more than that. I hope he got a lot better this summer.

OZZIE4DUKE
07-18-2011, 10:21 AM
Hm, I'm actually a bit surprised how strongly everyone collectively agrees on Seth . . I think DukieInBrasil skewed the voting with his post :p
I voted before reading any posts, so I was voting influence-free! :cool:

chadlee989
07-18-2011, 10:45 AM
I always vote before reading any post.

CDu
07-18-2011, 11:26 AM
It makes a lot of sense though, although I just don't know why I'm not as comfortable with Dre as a starter as everyone else . . . he's a crazy good shooter, but he hasn't shown me a great deal more than that. I hope he got a lot better this summer.

It's true that Dawkins hasn't shown much more (at least not with any sort of consistency) than great shooting ability (though he's been very streaky there too). However, what have Thornton, Cook, or Gbinije shown that suggest they should start over the upperclassman Dawkins?

The reality is that there are a LOT of question marks. With the losses of Smith and Singler, nearly every player is going to be asked to take over a new and bigger role. It's a big year for Dawkins. He's one of the veterans on the team and one of only four players (and the only perimeter guy) who played on the championship team (with Curry being a practice player of course). Rivers will probably be the star player, but I think Dawkins needs to be the guy to take a leap and become a key contributor and starter.

airowe
07-18-2011, 11:43 AM
I voted for the best guard in practice, Seth Curry, but I agree with DukieInBrasil that Austin will have the ball in his hands a lot.

I suspect we won't see as much of Cook as the OP thinks.

MChambers
07-18-2011, 12:05 PM
I voted for the best guard in practice, Seth Curry, but I agree with DukieInBrasil that Austin will have the ball in his hands a lot.

I suspect we won't see as much of Cook as the OP thinks.
I haven't voted, because I don't really see the point of this poll, but I agree with most who have posted in this thread.

I also want to point out that a lot of the persons speculating about who will start or get the most minutes are focusing only on offense. This is understandable, because defense is harder to evaluate. Having said that, this team has to replace two outstanding defenders in Kyle and Nolan. I suspect defense will have an awful lot to do with who gets minutes this year.

ChillinDuke
07-18-2011, 01:11 PM
I echo what others have been saying.

I think this is a big year for Andre. He was on the cover of the IronDukes annual mailing a few weeks ago. Methinks this was not a random choice.

I believe the staff wants Andre to lead this year. And this is not in any way meant as a slight to the other upperclassmen.

CDu
07-18-2011, 01:52 PM
I voted for the best guard in practice, Seth Curry, but I agree with DukieInBrasil that Austin will have the ball in his hands a lot.

I suspect we won't see as much of Cook as the OP thinks.

Yeah, invariably there'll be folks who value some freshmen (whom they haven't seen) more than the veterans stepping into bigger roles (whom they have). Sometimes it's warranted, but usually it's not.

Dawkins has two years of experience in the Duke system and has played more games and minutes than anyone else on the perimeter. Curry has a year of game experience and two years of practice with the Duke system, as well as an additional year of D-1 basketball experience. To expect Cook as a freshman to overtake them is very optimistic in my opinion.

superdave
07-18-2011, 02:14 PM
Yeah, invariably there'll be folks who value some freshmen (whom they haven't seen) more than the veterans stepping into bigger roles (whom they have). Sometimes it's warranted, but usually it's not.

Dawkins has two years of experience in the Duke system and has played more games and minutes than anyone else on the perimeter. Curry has a year of game experience and two years of practice with the Duke system, as well as an additional year of D-1 basketball experience. To expect Cook as a freshman to overtake them is very optimistic in my opinion.

Excellent points.

I would be interested in hearing people's thoughts on Seth Curry at PG vs. Daniel Ewing as PG. A big difference is that Austin Rivers is likely to create off the dribble a good bit compared to JJ Redick getting his shots off screens, which will reduce pressure on Seth to make plays. I think Curry would really benefit from studying the Jon Scheyer model of handling point guard duties - control tempo and remain disciplined, look to pass first, be opportunistic when the defense breaks down.

Seth developed great hands on the defensive end by Feb/March. He also gained confidence in his shot late in the year. I hope next in his development is learning balance between attacking and setting up teammates within the offense.

CharlestonDevil
07-18-2011, 02:36 PM
I think who starts at the 1 slot will greatly be dictated by who starts at the 3. I think K would probably prefer to let both Rivers and Curry play off the ball, and have TT be a leader and distributor. But assuming Dre makes a solid step up in his play, his play will warrant more minutes and become more valuable in the backcourt while Curry serves as a Ewing/Scheyer-eque PG.

Of course matchups and who is playing hot will be a factor, but I definitely believe K wants Rivers, Curry, and Dawkins to focus on what they do best, and that is to score. Whoever is at PG won't matter as much as which SG/SF has the hot hand. I don't see many nights where at least one of those guys isn't on fire.

NSDukeFan
07-18-2011, 03:15 PM
I haven't voted, because I don't really see the point of this poll, but I agree with most who have posted in this thread.
I'm pretty sure it's because we are Duke basketball junkies and need something to speculate about in these long months between March and November.

I also want to point out that a lot of the persons speculating about who will start or get the most minutes are focusing only on offense. This is understandable, because defense is harder to evaluate. Having said that, this team has to replace two outstanding defenders in Kyle and Nolan. I suspect defense will have an awful lot to do with who gets minutes this year.

I agree and this is why I picked Seth, who has already best demonstrated that he could defend quick guards effectively at this level.

Dukehky
07-18-2011, 03:17 PM
I think that Seth is hands down the starting point guard. As a few people have mentioned before, the style of guard play (not team play overall because of the big's athleticism) is going to be very similar to how it was in 2010 with nolan and scheyer.

Personally, I think that Dre will be the 6th man. I think that K will love to have that offensive spark which Dre definitely has the ability to be when his shot's on. I also think that Dre will be more comfortable coming off the bench, because no matter how much he's worked on his handles and driving, Dre shoots the rock, and that's what he's most comfortable doing.

To throw a wildcard in there, something I don't think a lot of people are talking about, and something I saw in the two practices last week, is that Alex Murphy is playing really really well, and I think he's the odds on favorite to be the starting 3-man. He's less polished than Kyle was as a freshman but more athletic. Gbinije I think will get some pretty significant minutes, I think he's going to be a Dahntay Jones type before he's done at Duke. Constantly developing offensive game with great D, rebounding, and ups.

This leaves Mason and Ryan to fill out the starting line-up. To be perfectly honest, I don't see TT getting a lot of time. His defensive/on-ball prowess stemmed a lot from the fact that he played extremely limited minutes against winded starting point guards. He doesn't have the speed to play that tenacious defense for extended periods of time, nor does he have an effective/efficient offensive game. I think Cook will be the back-up point guard because he's our best natural passer, and he's lightning quick.

I don't think Hairston is going to see the floor much, at 6'7 (he's not any bigger than that if you've stood next to him) he doesn't have the strength or length to bang at the 4 or the range to be that versatile offensive 3/4 guy. I think he'll only get thrown in if we're in serious foul trouble, or we need to give some fouls up.

All that being said, I think Miles is set for a big year, and I really hope Mason breaks out. Marshall will get thrown in there a little bit to play some scrap minutes hopefully as a giant energizer bunny, but I hope no one counts on him for much offensively.

Hopefully some of that makes some sense. It's going to be by far the most exciting and explosive team we've had since probably 2004, if not 2002. Thats not to say we're gonna win the ship, but we're gonna cause people some serious Hell on the court.
Go Duke

akhan786
07-18-2011, 03:24 PM
I've been hearing a lot about how Murphy has really been impressing in practices...If anybody has any information that can elaborate on that please do tell...

Dukehky
07-18-2011, 03:29 PM
He's just been showing a ton of versatility on the offensive end and showing his athleticism and ability to pick up on defense quickly. He's got some legit mid-range and post up ability on smaller men, and as I said before he's faster and a little more explosive than Kyle (as a reference point) so he's a match-up nightmare.




I've been hearing a lot about how Murphy has really been impressing in practices...If anybody has any information that can elaborate on that please do tell...

-bdbd
07-18-2011, 03:50 PM
Barring some surprisingly fantastic developments in China and the early season practices, this is how I see the year starting as well. Curry, the more experienced hand, the starting PG, with Rivers the off guard and 'Dre' at the 3, but like with all our teams with 2 (or more) great guards, what you call them doesn't matter, they will all play a ton of minutes and score a boatload of points for us. I sure hope they do anyway! :cool: Tyler and Quin will earn their minutes as the situation and their talents demand.

Great post Oz. I agree with everything you said. I assume this is a vote for the line-up at the START of the season. Knowing K fromexperience, I see little chance of starting the season with Rivers as the primary ball handler. That could change by January or Feb. depending on the development and chemistry. But in Nov. I see us as with (using posit numbers loosely since "Duke doesn't play rigid positions"): 1-Curry, 2-Rivers (but with the ball a lot), 3-Dre, 4- MP2, 5- MP1 (or Ryan at 4, with MP2 at the 5 maybe). :eek:

We have ball-handling options of Curry, Rivers, Tyler and Cook. Though Cook might have been a bit higher rankred than TT out of High School, again experience gives TT the edge for playing time in Nov. & Dec. Very nice to have so many options to handle the rock, given 2-3 years ago we appeared to have ONE.

We do have lots of options at the 3, but Dre has the experience and is the logical starter at the 3-spot in Nov. (though maybe slightly undersized). As the season goes on, I would be shoicked to see Dre move to the #6 man, with any of Gbinije, Murphy, or Hairston starting at 3. Has the discussion of Murphy redshirting been shelved? Would really like to see one of those mid-sized guys develop as the season progresses b/c come Feb. and March we'll be seeing a lot of opposing 3's with size (6'7"-plus), which might be a tough match-up for Dre. :rolleyes:

Thank goodness for August international competitions giving a young squad incredibly valuable time to mesh, develop roles and to give coaches time to evaluate and coach!

akhan786
07-18-2011, 03:51 PM
He's just been showing a ton of versatility on the offensive end and showing his athleticism and ability to pick up on defense quickly. He's got some legit mid-range and post up ability on smaller men, and as I said before he's faster and a little more explosive than Kyle (as a reference point) so he's a match-up nightmare.

]



edtrfyguhfla....sorry I had to wipe the drool off my keyboard... :)

Is Alex Murphy impressing more than Austin Rivers Dukehky?

jipops
07-18-2011, 04:07 PM
Personally, I think that Dre will be the 6th man. I think that K will love to have that offensive spark which Dre definitely has the ability to be when his shot's on. I also think that Dre will be more comfortable coming off the bench, because no matter how much he's worked on his handles and driving, Dre shoots the rock, and that's what he's most comfortable doing.

To throw a wildcard in there, something I don't think a lot of people are talking about, and something I saw in the two practices last week, is that Alex Murphy is playing really really well, and I think he's the odds on favorite to be the starting 3-man. He's less polished than Kyle was as a freshman but more athletic. Gbinije I think will get some pretty significant minutes, I think he's going to be a Dahntay Jones type before he's done at Duke. Constantly developing offensive game with great D, rebounding, and ups.


I'm probably taking this off on a tangent from the original title (so move if appropriate), but unless Murphy is Grant Hill or Luol Deng, he isn't starting over Dre. I think the biggest improvement we are going to see out of Dawkins is his defense and I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the anointed defensive stopper on the other team's best perimeter scorer. It is so common with perimeter players with certain athletic tools to develop excellent defensive ability and instincts under K. We saw it with DeMarcus, Ewing, and Nolan Smith. I think we'll see it now from Andre. K likes his reliable, experienced defensive guys to be in for the bulk of the game. Though I have never seen Murphy play in person, I have a hard time believing he is already equipped to fulfill this role.

Dukehky
07-18-2011, 04:08 PM
edtrfyguhfla....sorry I had to wipe the drool off my keyboard... :)

Is Alex Murphy impressing more than Austin Rivers Dukehky?


Lets not get crazy. Rivers is the best player on the team.

ThePublisher
07-18-2011, 04:11 PM
I really don't see us having one set PG this year. Not until a good way into the ACC season at least. I imagine Curry will start at point but Cook or Thornton could develop enough through the year to take that spot depends on what style fits this team. I do see Thornton coming off the bench pretty quickly especially against teams who have quicker guards that we need to slow down.
It's going to be incredible the amount of looks we'll be able to throw at opponents this year both defensively and offensively.

jipops
07-18-2011, 04:19 PM
I really don't see us having one set PG this year. Not until a good way into the ACC season at least. I imagine Curry will start at point but Cook or Thornton could develop enough through the year to take that spot depends on what style fits this team. I do see Thornton coming off the bench pretty quickly especially against teams who have quicker guards that we need to slow down.
It's going to be incredible the amount of looks we'll be able to throw at opponents this year both defensively and offensively.

I agree with this. Though we have a number of guys who are candidates for being a primary ball-handler, the point guard slot does have some question marks. I do see it as a possible weakness. Then again, I haven't seen this season's team play yet.

CDu
07-18-2011, 04:25 PM
We do have lots of options at the 3, but Dre has the experience and is the logical starter at the 3-spot in Nov. (though maybe slightly undersized). As the season goes on, I would be shoicked to see Dre move to the #6 man, with any of Gbinije, Murphy, or Hairston starting at 3. Has the discussion of Murphy redshirting been shelved? Would really like to see one of those mid-sized guys develop as the season progresses b/c come Feb. and March we'll be seeing a lot of opposing 3's with size (6'7"-plus), which might be a tough match-up for Dre. :rolleyes:

I see virtually no chance that Hairston starts (or plays at all) at the 3 for us at any point this year. He's never shown any of the skills to do that at any point in high school or last year. He has a 4/5 game, and as such he's going to be in the post rotation. I'd also be surprised if Gbinije or Murphy take away substantial PT from Dawkins this year. There are only a handful of teams who play big enough at the 3 to give Dawkins trouble, and I think the advantage he has in experience will be enough to keep Gbinije and Murphy at bay.

It would be great to see Gbinije or Murphy prove me wrong and step up to the plate and demand minutes. Hopefully we have that "problem" and not the problem that Dawkins isn't ready/able to handle the 3 spot.


Thank goodness for August international competitions giving a young squad incredibly valuable time to mesh, develop roles and to give coaches time to evaluate and coach!

Absolutely agree. Who knows how good the competition will be over there, but at least it gives the team some game experience. With all the new players and new roles, they can definitely use it.

Dukehky
07-18-2011, 04:41 PM
While I most certainly agree that with Dawkins' experience and hopefully improved defensive and ball handling abilities he is going to NEED to play a large number of minutes at a high level on both sides of the ball. However, with all that being said, that does not necessarily mean that he has to start.

Dawkins seems like the kind of guy who seems more comfortable and will be more effective coming off the bench as the sixth man. I don't know why I get that sense about his personality but its not a knock on it. I think he's got the kind of mentality that is "ok, you hung in the game this long, but now I'm coming in... You're screwed." As we all saw with Jason Terry for the Mavs this year, that's how I see Dre this year.

I'm perfectly fine and encouraged by really any of our decisions at the 3 except having rivers, curry, TT/cook as the starting backcourt. But again, that's just my opinion, and the more weapons we have with size on the wing with Murphy and Gbinije, the better we'll be so I may just be trying to syke myself into really believing this.

licc85
07-18-2011, 05:31 PM
I haven't voted, because I don't really see the point of this poll, but I agree with most who have posted in this thread.

I also want to point out that a lot of the persons speculating about who will start or get the most minutes are focusing only on offense. This is understandable, because defense is harder to evaluate. Having said that, this team has to replace two outstanding defenders in Kyle and Nolan. I suspect defense will have an awful lot to do with who gets minutes this year.

The point of the poll was because I honestly think this is more wide open than this poll would seem to indicate, but of course, having seen the poll results, your hindsight is 20/20.

I didn't "focus on only offense" . . What makes you think the lineup won't be TT/Curry/Rivers/Kelly/MP2? I honestly still think that is going to be the starting lineup in our opening regular season game. People seem to have the idea that Dawkins is a starter for sure, whereas I'm still not convinced. Dawkins' game (unless he's significantly improved) suits more of a reserve role imo. He's a spot up shooter who is a so-so ball handler and isn't necessarily known for his spectacular defense. TT does everything that Dwakins does not do, but is not as big a threat from deep, which is totally fine in a lineup with Curry, Rivers, and Kelly. Why add another shooter when you can add defense, ball handling, and leadership? TT is a known vocal leader. Dre an upperclassmen, but is a pretty soft spoken guy.

I ended up going with Cook on a hunch, because I think people continue to underestimate him. He's an exceptional point guard, who I think has yet to play his best basketball due to his meniscus injury during his junior year, and I think if he develops the right chemistry with Curry and Rivers, he can, and will start in a 3 guard backcourt with them. How many people at Chapel Hill thought Kendall Marshall would be the lead guard last summer, and end up taking his team to the elite 8? I think Cook is better than Marshall . . . I really do. Besides, what makes you think your speculation is more right than mine? Have you been sitting at practices? No, none of us have. That's what the the point of this poll was, now get off your high horse.

Acymetric
07-18-2011, 05:35 PM
I'm probably taking this off on a tangent from the original title (so move if appropriate), but unless Murphy is Grant Hill or Luol Deng, he isn't starting over Dre. I think the biggest improvement we are going to see out of Dawkins is his defense and I wouldn't be surprised if he becomes the anointed defensive stopper on the other team's best perimeter scorer. It is so common with perimeter players with certain athletic tools to develop excellent defensive ability and instincts under K. We saw it with DeMarcus, Ewing, and Nolan Smith. I think we'll see it now from Andre. K likes his reliable, experienced defensive guys to be in for the bulk of the game. Though I have never seen Murphy play in person, I have a hard time believing he is already equipped to fulfill this role.

I have high hopes for Dre's improvement, especially on defense, but I would be fairly surprised if he becomes the top defensive stopper for this team, and if he is it may say more about our perimeter defense than about his personal improvement. I don't think he has incredible lateral quickness relative to our other guards and he doesn't have super long arms either as far I know.

Kedsy
07-18-2011, 08:33 PM
Dawkins seems like the kind of guy who seems more comfortable and will be more effective coming off the bench as the sixth man.

Interesting that you think this. I've always gotten the complete opposite vibe about Andre. If he doesn't get involved early he tends to disappear. Not 100% true, of course but a general observation. Having said that, I suspect if he didn't start but played 30+ minutes he'd be fine. Ultimately we'll just have to see how much he's improved before we make any judgments.

For what it's worth, last year when Andre started he scored 10.14 ppg on 52.9% shooting (7 games). When he came off the bench he scored 7.56 ppg on 46.5% shooting (30 games). Not sure the sample size is big enough to mean anything, especially since he scored 28 points in one of the games he started, but these numbers certainly don't support a hypothesis that he's better coming off the bench.


What makes you think the lineup won't be TT/Curry/Rivers/Kelly/MP2?

What makes me think this won't be the lineup is it would put us at a defensive disadvantage, because we'd be giving up a fair amount of size at the two and the three, and often the one as well. Since the rationale for staring Tyler seems to be his defense, it makes no sense if you'd actually be hurting your team defense by starting him.


People seem to have the idea that Dawkins is a starter for sure, whereas I'm still not convinced. Dawkins' game (unless he's significantly improved) suits more of a reserve role imo. He's a spot up shooter who is a so-so ball handler and isn't necessarily known for his spectacular defense.

Based on interviews by Chris Collins and Coach K (from a couple months ago so I don't have a link handy), the staff believes Andre has superstar potential. They don't know if he'll reach that potential or not, or when, but I don't believe your suggestion that Andre is not starting material is shared by too many people in the know.


I ended up going with Cook on a hunch, because I think people continue to underestimate him. He's an exceptional point guard, who I think has yet to play his best basketball due to his meniscus injury during his junior year, and I think if he develops the right chemistry with Curry and Rivers, he can, and will start in a 3 guard backcourt with them.

How much have you seen Quinn play? I am assuming not all that much since you live in Kentucky, but if I'm wrong I apologize. Quinn, Seth, and Austin starting/playing a lot of minutes together is even more of an issue than Tyler, Seth, and Austin starting/playing a lot of minutes together. It puts us at a defensive disadvantage in all three perimeter positions.


How many people at Chapel Hill thought Kendall Marshall would be the lead guard last summer[?]

I believe almost everyone in Chapel Hill except Roy Williams thought Kendall Marshall should/would be the starter.

CDu
07-18-2011, 09:22 PM
I believe almost everyone in Chapel Hill except Roy Williams thought Kendall Marshall should/would be the starter.

Actually, I think this is a bit of revisionist history. Coming in to the season, everyone was talking about how Irving destroyed Marshall in the all-star games and how Thornton handled Marshall when their teams played. The big concern was that he was too slow and unathletic to be a starting ACC PG last year. Further, Larry Drew was a decent, veteran PG with a very high A/TO ratio and a decent amount of experience.

There were definitely plenty of supporters, but it wasn't like everyone thought Marshall would/should start. It wasn't until the ship started looking to go South (again) that EVERYone rallied around Marshall as the starter.

Newton_14
07-18-2011, 09:27 PM
Actually, I think this is a bit of revisionist history. Coming in to the season, everyone was talking about how Irving destroyed Marshall in the all-star games and how Thornton handled Marshall when their teams played. The big concern was that he was too slow and unathletic to be a starting ACC PG last year. Further, Larry Drew was a decent, veteran PG with a very high A/TO ratio and a decent amount of experience.

There were definitely plenty of supporters, but it wasn't like everyone thought Marshall would/should start. It wasn't until the ship started looking to go South (again) that EVERYone rallied around Marshall as the starter.

Actually that was the Duke view, not the UNC view. All of my UNC friends were screaming at Roy to start Kendall back in December. So from a UNC perspective, I think Kedsy is right. You are 100% correct about the Duke fanbase view of Marshall though.

ncexnyc
07-18-2011, 09:40 PM
I really don't see us having one set PG this year. Not until a good way into the ACC season at least. I imagine Curry will start at point but Cook or Thornton could develop enough through the year to take that spot depends on what style fits this team. I do see Thornton coming off the bench pretty quickly especially against teams who have quicker guards that we need to slow down.
It's going to be incredible the amount of looks we'll be able to throw at opponents this year both defensively and offensively.
I'm surprised to read this. I'm a big fan of Tyler's, but I never in my most supportive moments considered quickness to be one of his main attributes.

licc85
07-18-2011, 09:44 PM
How much have you seen Quinn play? I am assuming not all that much since you live in Kentucky, but if I'm wrong I apologize. Quinn, Seth, and Austin starting/playing a lot of minutes together is even more of an issue than Tyler, Seth, and Austin starting/playing a lot of minutes together. It puts us at a defensive disadvantage in all three perimeter positions.

I haven't seen him THAT much, but I've watched maybe 5-6 televised games, and I read everything I can find on the internet about the team, probably same as you. I thought I made it pretty clear that all this was speculation . . . I don't KNOW anything more than anyone else who isn't inside the program knows, and I said I was going on a hunch . . . but I like guys who play with heart, and Quinn reminds me of Nolan Smith in more than a few ways, and I just think he's going to surprise a lot of people. Can't a guy have an opinion without getting called out anymore?

Additionally, I don't understand why you think having two 6'2" guards and a 6'4" guard in a lineup puts us at a huge defensive disadvantage. I'm not 100% sure, but we certainly played nolan/kyrie/dre or nolan/seth/dre at the same time for long stretches last year, and we did just fine. Not saying that's the optimal lineup, but we did go small quite a bit, as we are always willing to do when our back court is this talented. Size isn't everything, especially when you have quickness on the perimeter and guys who can challenge shots in the paint like we do.

Seth and Nolan were our starting backcourt last year. Both those guys are 6'2" or below, and we still had one of, if not the best perimeter defense in the ACC.

Newton_14
07-18-2011, 10:04 PM
I am in the camp of Seth getting the nod out of the gate as the PG, with Austin and Andre manning the wings. 2 Jr's and the star freshman. Given how Seth performed last year, and the improvement I expect him to make, it will be difficult to supplant him. Austin is a lock to start imo, and I am of the opinion that Andre will breakout this year. He has the tools, and like I said in another thread, maturity and ballhandling will be the key. I am betting he is improved in both area's. Andre is very much capable of stardom at the college level.

Tyler's defense and floor leadership will earn him minutes as well. I feel he will be a part of the normal rotation througout the year coming off the bench. I have only seen Quin once, so I do not have enough to go on with him. I hope to catch him and the rest of the guys at the Pro-Am this week or next.

Greg_Newton
07-18-2011, 10:24 PM
If there was an option for "Seth and Austin as the two lead guards", I'd vote for it. I think there is little doubt that they will be our starting backcourt, and that they will share ballhandling and distribution duties much like Nolan and Jon did in '09-'10, although maybe even more of an even split.

I would guess Seth will bring the ball up most of the time, except for in transition, when Austin will probably be the primary guy. I would also guess that Seth will spend more time with the ball, distributing it, etc., but that Austin will be getting into the lane and making things happen (i.e. Kyrie). Austin the Creator and Seth the Distributor?

Newton_14
07-18-2011, 10:51 PM
If there was an option for "Seth and Austin as the two lead guards", I'd vote for it. I think there is little doubt that they will be our starting backcourt, and that they will share ballhandling and distribution duties much like Nolan and Jon did in '09-'10, although maybe even more of an even split.

I would guess Seth will bring the ball up most of the time, except for in transition, when Austin will probably be the primary guy. I would also guess that Seth will spend more time with the ball, distributing it, etc., but that Austin will be getting into the lane and making things happen (i.e. Kyrie). Austin the Creator and Seth the Distributor?

That pretty much explains it yes. Off of inbounds plays I expect Seth brings it up much of the time but not all, depending on which set K wants on that possession. Off rebounds, whichever one of them is closer or got the rebound themselves will be bringing it up. I do expect both Seth and Austin to share the bulk of the ballhandling duties. Hopefully Andre has improved enough to where if he grabs a long defensive board, he can head up court full steam ahead himself.

But to your point, it will be very similar to the 2010 Backcourt of Jon and Nolan...

OZZIE4DUKE
07-18-2011, 11:30 PM
Hopefully Andre has improved enough to where if he grabs a long defensive board, he can head up court full steam ahead himself.

Sounds like you're asking 'Dre to morph into Patrick Davidson... :cool:

Kedsy
07-18-2011, 11:34 PM
I ended up going with Cook on a hunch, because I think people continue to underestimate him. He's an exceptional point guard, who I think has yet to play his best basketball due to his meniscus injury during his junior year...


I haven't seen him THAT much, but I've watched maybe 5-6 televised games, and I read everything I can find on the internet about the team, probably same as you. I thought I made it pretty clear that all this was speculation . . . I don't KNOW anything more than anyone else who isn't inside the program knows, and I said I was going on a hunch . . . but I like guys who play with heart, and Quinn reminds me of Nolan Smith in more than a few ways, and I just think he's going to surprise a lot of people. Can't a guy have an opinion without getting called out anymore?

I wasn't intending to "call you out," but you did say Quinn was "an exceptional point guard," with the clear suggestion that he was so exceptional he would start ahead of Andre and Tyler. Sure, you can have an opinion, but personally I like opinions to have some basis, and I have my doubts whether 5 or 6 televised all-star games can support your stated opinion.

I do think Quinn will do great things during his time at Duke. I would remind you, however, that even if he replicates Nolan's wonderful career, Nolan Smith didn't start as a freshman.


Additionally, I don't understand why you think having two 6'2" guards and a 6'4" guard in a lineup puts us at a huge defensive disadvantage. I'm not 100% sure, but we certainly played nolan/kyrie/dre or nolan/seth/dre at the same time for long stretches last year, and we did just fine. Not saying that's the optimal lineup, but we did go small quite a bit, as we are always willing to do when our back court is this talented. Size isn't everything, especially when you have quickness on the perimeter and guys who can challenge shots in the paint like we do.

Seth and Nolan were our starting backcourt last year. Both those guys are 6'2" or below, and we still had one of, if not the best perimeter defense in the ACC.

Well, first of all, neither Seth nor Quinn are as tall as 6'2". Seth is listed on the Duke website as a generous 6'1", and Quinn is listed variously as 6'0" and 6'1". That's a really small backcourt, but it wouldn't be dangerously small if you had a decent sized SF, because then against most teams you'd only have a serious size disadvantage at one position, sometimes two. While that's not ideal, you live with it if it's your best combination. With Austin playing SF, by most accounts around 6'4" and very skinny, it makes you undersized at two or three positions, which is a lot tougher to work with.

Nolan/Seth/Andre, while bigger than the lineup you propose, was a lineup we rarely used last year. Even Nolan/Kyrie/Andre wasn't used that often, because Kyle averaged 35 minutes a game and didn't play the "4" all that much.

I don't know this for certain, but my guess is Duke has never had a primary lineup as small as 6'1"/6'1"/6'4" on the perimeter (at least in the K era). Not that we never played such a lineup, but if we did it was rare. And even after having said that, if we were thin at the perimeter positions and/or had no choice but to play so small a lineup, of course Coach K could make it work. However, we will be a very deep team and have plenty of choices. And 6'1"/6'4"/6'5" will not only play sizewise against most lineups in the country, but is also a more experienced lineup. Quinn would have to be a clear and obvious advantage over Andre to play such a small lineup, and as a freshman I would be surprised if he is.

The Duke defensive system is not easy to learn. I would also be surprised if Quinn as a freshman is as good a defender as any of our returning players. That is why even though I think a Tyler/Seth/Austin lineup will have defensive challenges, a Quinn/Seth/Austin lineup will have even more defensive issues.

This doesn't mean I think Quinn won't ever play; I hope he's good enough to play decent rotation minutes. But when he does play, I suspect he'll be subbing for Seth or Austin, rather than Andre.


Actually, I think this is a bit of revisionist history. Coming in to the season, everyone was talking about how Irving destroyed Marshall in the all-star games and how Thornton handled Marshall when their teams played. The big concern was that he was too slow and unathletic to be a starting ACC PG last year. Further, Larry Drew was a decent, veteran PG with a very high A/TO ratio and a decent amount of experience.

There were definitely plenty of supporters, but it wasn't like everyone thought Marshall would/should start. It wasn't until the ship started looking to go South (again) that EVERYone rallied around Marshall as the starter.


Actually that was the Duke view, not the UNC view. All of my UNC friends were screaming at Roy to start Kendall back in December. So from a UNC perspective, I think Kedsy is right. You are 100% correct about the Duke fanbase view of Marshall though.

Yes, thank you Newton_14. The OP said "How many people at Chapel Hill thought Kendall Marshall would be the lead guard last summer[?]" and I was attempting to answer from that perspective. My recollection (which may or may not be faulty) is the UNC fan base was shouting for Marshall to start from the beginning.

MChambers
07-19-2011, 08:13 AM
The point of the poll was because I honestly think this is more wide open than this poll would seem to indicate, but of course, having seen the poll results, your hindsight is 20/20.

First, I didn't look at the poll results. Second, I have nothing against speculation, since it's really all we do here, especially in the summer.

My point about this not being a good poll topic has to do with the fact that the answer has to be A, B, or C. That doesn't have much to do with the way, Duke typically plays players or positions. Nor does it reflect the changes that occur over the course of the season. Is the starting point guard the person who starts the first game in November, the last name in March or April, or the person who starts the most games at that position?

How do you define point guard? Is it the person who brings the ball across half-court? Or the person who has the balls in their hands the most in the half-court offense? Or the person who most frequently initiates the offense?

If we starts Rivers and Curry, who is the point?

In 2009-2010, who was the point? Scheyer was most, but not all, of the time on the offensive end, but Smith was on the defensive end.


I didn't "focus on only offense"

I never said you did. I said "lots of people" or "most people", or words to that effect.


Besides, what makes you think your speculation is more right than mine? Have you been sitting at practices? No, none of us have. That's what the the point of this poll was, now get off your high horse.

I wasn't on a high horse. I was just pointing out my reason for not voting, that I did not think this was a particularly good topic for a poll. I would appreciate it if you would avoid personal attacks.

licc85
07-19-2011, 09:58 AM
First, I didn't look at the poll results. Second, I have nothing against speculation, since it's really all we do here, especially in the summer.

My point about this not being a good poll topic has to do with the fact that the answer has to be A, B, or C. That doesn't have much to do with the way, Duke typically plays players or positions. Nor does it reflect the changes that occur over the course of the season. Is the starting point guard the person who starts the first game in November, the last name in March or April, or the person who starts the most games at that position?

How do you define point guard? Is it the person who brings the ball across half-court? Or the person who has the balls in their hands the most in the half-court offense? Or the person who most frequently initiates the offense?

If we starts Rivers and Curry, who is the point?

In 2009-2010, who was the point? Scheyer was most, but not all, of the time on the offensive end, but Smith was on the defensive end.



I never said you did. I said "lots of people" or "most people", or words to that effect.



I wasn't on a high horse. I was just pointing out my reason for not voting, that I did not think this was a particularly good topic for a poll. I would appreciate it if you would avoid personal attacks.

Look, you're probably right, Seth and Austin are definitely the best guards on the team, no question. I didn't take any of this personally, it's a message board, we're debating. I wanted to respond directly to your comments.

I still think it was a good poll . . . a lot of people voted, it cleared up a few things for me, and I gained some valuable insight from other people who care about Duke basketball.

Btw, of the games that I saw Quinn play in, only 2 were all star games. Some of the his games that I watched were postseason games during his senior year, including a championship game. Can't remember if it was a state championship or what, but it was Oak Hill vs. Montrose, so it was definitely a huge game that went to OT, and he showed a TON of heart, but Montrose ended up winning in OT. Justin Anderson (Maryland freshman) played pretty well iirc.

Do I realistically think Quinn will supplant someone in the starting lineup by mid-season? Probably not, just based on how Seth and Andre need to play a lot to establish leadership roles, but, I think he has a shot, as does TT, especially if someone like Seth or Austin is struggling.

Yeah, I'm going back a little on what I said earlier, some of you guys talked some sense into me. I get caught up in rooting for the little guy more often than not, but this team's collective amount of talent is immense, even for a Duke team. If someone is slumping, they could easily be benched in favor of someone on a hot streak. Lineup questions are going to be asked all year. I'm just trying to stir some debate.

DevilWearsPrada
07-19-2011, 10:24 AM
I voted before reading any posts, so I was voting influence-free! :cool:

I voted first also, Ozzie, before I read any posts!

I think Seth will be the starting Point Guard, also. But Coach, really doesn't assign positions or titles. Like he called, Kyle Singler, "Winner" and "Warrior."

G man
07-25-2011, 05:43 PM
I think the situation will be fluid throughout the year. I expect Seth and Austin to start, but I am not sold on Andre. Andre has all the offensive skills minus superior ball handling skills to be a star, but I am concerned about the defensive side of the ball. It seems like Andre can have a difficult time guarding quick players. He seems to get a little flat footed and has to chase (never a good thing even if you are a great athlete). K has already challenged Austin on his defense play, which make me nervous having possibly two week perimeter defenders even with the Plumlee wall defending the rim. Personally I am hoping that Dre and Austin both step up their defense enough to warrant being on the floor together as much as possible. Because I believe that they are the best offensive lineup (exception of possibly a freshmen SF stepping up).

Troublemaker
07-25-2011, 06:34 PM
Seth will be the PG, insofar as he'll guard the opposing PG and bring the ball up the court the most and initiate the offense the most.

But Austin will have the ball in his hands a lot once the offense is initiated and he'll probably end up doing more playmaking and dribble-driving than Seth overall.

Both guys will be fun to watch this season.

duke1983
07-29-2011, 07:59 AM
off topic...plumlee brothers video

http://www.goduke.com/mediaPortal/player.dbml?id=784578&db_oem_id=4200