Katz on redshirts

[Olympic Fan]

It's a pay-for-view section of ESPN, so I can't link, but Andy Katz has a note in the rumors section about how the China trip could help Coach K and his staff sort out redshirt possibilities for the Blue Devils.

No problem there -- that's been much discussed.

Where Katz gets into bizarro world is his suggestion that Andre Dawkins will have to prove that he can play the point or he might find himself the odd man out.

Uh ... no.

I think it's much more likely that K experiments with a Curry-Rivers backcourt -- essentially two combo guards (like we had in 2010). If that works, then Andre starts on the wing in a three-guard set. If it doesn't look good, then Andre is likely to become the sixth man while Cook and Thornton vie for the point.

I hadn't thought about it, but if the Curry-Rivers combo does work, maybe the loser of the Thornton/Cook battle might become a redshirt candidate? There wouldn't be a lot of time with Curry, Rivers, Dawkins and the Thornton-Cook winner splitting time and Gbinge getting some minutes at the 3.

Up front, Katz mentions Murphy as a possible redshirt with Mason, Miles and Ryan getting the major minutes. I guess that's possible, but I think MP3 is a more likely redshirt candidate. And where does Josh fit in?

[Bob Green]

And where does Josh fit in?

That's a great question. We've seen some great freshman to sophomore jumps in the past and Josh is going to need one if he is going to see significant court time. The team is deep and experienced upfront with Miles, Mason and Ryan.

So will Coach Krzyzewski opt to rotate four players in the front court and will Josh be the fourth big? Or will Marshall Plumlee or Murphy get the nod? A second scenario is limiting the front court to the three experienced upperclassmen while inserting Gbinije or Murphy into the rotation on the wing.

Playing time is going to be hotly contested during practice that is for sure.

[gumbomoop]

In the past, several posters who seem to be fairly or very close to the program have stated that "K does not redshirt players" [save for the obvious case of injury]. I haven't read that assertion lately, and so wonder whether with 12 recruited scholarship guys, K and staff have changed philosophy on this issue, or are at least thinking about it.

As Olympic Fan tells us that Katz's comments are in a "rumors" section, one wonders whether this is merely logical speculation by Katz and/or his informants, or whether the staff is forthrightly and semi-openly saying, "Yeah, we're thinking about it; we're blessed with many good players, but we have to be sensible about how to let each guy develop in his own time. Thinking about each player, our upcoming season, and the next several years, we want to create a win-win-win situation."

I know there must be a rule about how a player achieves [?] redshirt status. I assume that either at the beginning of the season, or early on [some deadline?], K simply announces, "X is redshirting this year."

I do hope K considers this, as this team has several players who might profit substantially from an extra year; and having a 5th-year senior [a la Roshown McLeod, Dahntay Jones, and David McClure] should be a big plus down the road. Further, it's just inconceivable, absent injuries, that K plays 11 or 12 guys. Indeed, despite what one might see as very roughly equal, if different, talents among, say, players 8-12, it seems unlikely that K would go beyond 8/9 guys by late-season.

Maybe (1) no one will redshirt, and (2) K will play 10/11 guys into late season. I'd think #1 rather more likely than #2. Frankly, I'd like to see a couple of guys redshirt, unless there's a rule that says once a redshirt season is "declared," the player cannot play, period. Obviously, K and staff have to be concerned about injuries cutting into a smaller[-numbered] squad.

Re Katz's bizarre ref to Andre playing the point, is it somehow possible he meant Andre is under some pressure to show a better handle, and somehow Katz has misheard/mistranslated this into a PG issue?

[jimsumner]

In the past, several posters who seem to be fairly or very close to the program have stated that "K does not redshirt players" [save for the obvious case of injury]. I haven't read that assertion lately, and so wonder whether with 12 recruited scholarship guys, K and staff have changed philosophy on this issue, or are at least thinking about it.

As Olympic Fan tells us that Katz's comments are in a "rumors" section, one wonders whether this is merely logical speculation by Katz and/or his informants, or whether the staff is forthrightly and semi-openly saying, "Yeah, we're thinking about it; we're blessed with many good players, but we have to be sensible about how to let each guy develop in his own time. Thinking about each player, our upcoming season, and the next several years, we want to create a win-win-win situation."

I know there must be a rule about how a player achieves [?] redshirt status. I assume that either at the beginning of the season, or early on [some deadline?], K simply announces, "X is redshirting this year."

I do hope K considers this, as this team has several players who might profit substantially from an extra year; and having a 5th-year senior [a la Roshown McLeod, Dahntay Jones, and David McClure] should be a big plus down the road. Further, it's just inconceivable, absent injuries, that K plays 11 or 12 guys. Indeed, despite what one might see as very roughly equal, if different, talents among, say, players 8-12, it seems unlikely that K would go beyond 8/9 guys by late-season.

Maybe (1) no one will redshirt, and (2) K will play 10/11 guys into late season. I'd think #1 rather more likely than #2. Frankly, I'd like to see a couple of guys redshirt, unless there's a rule that says once a redshirt season is "declared," the player cannot play, period. Obviously, K and staff have to be concerned about injuries cutting into a smaller[-numbered] squad.

Re Katz's bizarre ref to Andre playing the point, is it somehow possible he meant Andre is under some pressure to show a better handle, and somehow Katz has misheard/mistranslated this into a PG issue?

I specifically asked K about non-medical redshirts during his summer press conference and whether the China trip would help make that decision. His response was that the staff wasn't going into the China trip with the idea that someone would need to redshirt. But he declined to categorically rule out out the possibility. I suspect someone will have to play himself into a redshirt, if you know what I mean. But 12 is a pretty big rotation.

As for Dawkins playing point, that doesn't make sense to me and I haven't heard anything to suggest that Dawkins will be--or should be--in the PG mix. First, Duke has Curry, Thornton and Cook. If they can't get decent--at the least--PG play from that combo, I will be surprised and disappointed. Secondly, Dawkins is 6-4, getting stronger by all accounts and has some experience guarding ACC 3s. So, it makes a lot more sense to see if he can be the small forward.

[J.Blink]

I thought I remembered hearing that several years ago Couch K had offered to redshirt Czyz (since Czyz was a relative newcomer to basketball) maybe even after he had played one year. Cyz -- or Czyz's father -- said no.

Does that ring a bell?

[Bob Green]

Does that ring a bell?

Yes, I heard it. I have no idea if it is true, but I heard it.

[Newton_14]

Yes, I heard it. I have no idea if it is true, but I heard it.

I was told that K and Staff wanted Olek to redshirt his freshman year and felt it was in his best interest but Olek wanted no part of it. I hated to see Olek leave as I was looking forward to watching him develop and grow as a player. He was making strides but wanted PT so badly he gave up the Duke dream to take another path. Nothing wrong with that, and totally understandable from his point of view. Just wish he would have stuck around.

As for Katz, he is suffering from mental lapse or lazy journalism. Andre is a pure wing guard. Ball handling is something he has to improve on, and he is in no way a PG. There are 4 guys on the team that could conceivably play point guard at times this year in Tyler, Seth, Quin, and Austin. I doubt K is looking for a 5th option there...

[OldSchool]

Where Katz gets into bizarro world is his suggestion that Andre Dawkins will have to prove that he can play the point or he might find himself the odd man out.

I think Katz has mixed up Dawkins and Curry.

Seth will have to prove he can play the point if he wants to be part of a Curry - Rivers - Dawkins backcourt.

If not, we'll probably start Thornton/Cook - Rivers - Dawkins.

I think Seth will be up to the task. He has been working on his dribbles and because of his size he will probably have to become more of a point guard if he wants to make it at the next level.

Given Rivers' playmaking ability, we won't have to run the entire offense through Seth anyway. Seth will do a lot of bringing the ball upcourt and then passing it to AR.

[m g]

The author is not Andy Katz. Check again.

That said, the person who actually wrote the post clearly knows nothing about Duke basketball.

[gwlaw99]

I would redshirt Marshall. He is raw on offense and too thin to guard well. Give him a year to develop.

[licc85]

I would redshirt Marshall. He is raw on offense and too thin to guard well. Give him a year to develop.

probably not gonna happen . . . don't think he would miss out on his last chance to play on the same team as both his brothers. There's nothing wrong with having this much depth, it's a good problem to have. We'll be able to play much faster and apply more pressure defense with such a deep bench. Besides, I'd rather have all of the freshman playing together from day 1 to develop chemistry in real games. 3-4 years from now, that experience, no matter how limited, will be a huge advantage for guys like Quinn, Marshall, and Mike, who I believe are all going to stay for at least 3 years each. Someone is bound to get buried on the bench, but Coach K knows how to manage egos and it shouldn't affect the locker room at all.

Also, there's no way Tyler redshirts, I think he's actually going to be the starting point guard with Seth at 2 guard and Austin on the wing. Andre just doesn't fit into the starting lineup in my opinion. Unless he SERIOUSLY improved his handles and defense over this summer, I don't see him starting. While he may be an overall better player than Tyler, Tyler actually knows how to play the point, and he's the best defensive player in our back court by a pretty decent margin. Andre fits perfectly as the 6th man who comes off the bench for offense. There's really no reason to have him on the court with both Seth and Austin at the same time the way I see it. He can stretch the defense better than anyone else, but just about everyone on the roster is a capable shooter, and many of the guys are more valuable on defense than Andre (as of now). I see Andre still getting heavy minutes, but as a reserve for when either Seth or Austin is resting, unless he's just on fire and is scorching the other team, which he is definitely capable of doing.

[gep]

... Secondly, Dawkins is 6-4, getting stronger by all accounts and has some experience guarding ACC 3s. So, it makes a lot more sense to see if he can be the small forward.

If I recall correctly, he did a pretty good job on H.Barnes... :confused:

[gep]

Given Rivers' playmaking ability, we won't have to run the entire offense through Seth anyway. Seth will do a lot of bringing the ball upcourt and then passing it to AR.

This reminds me of the Larry Bird Celtics... Dennis Johnson and/or Danny Ainge brought the ball upcourt, but the offense went through Bird.

[uh_no]

If I recall correctly, he did a pretty good job on H.Barnes... :confused:

I thought that was more kyle....but my memory goes quickly.

[tommy]

That's a great question. We've seen some great freshman to sophomore jumps in the past and Josh is going to need one if he is going to see significant court time.

I agree with this. And I think Josh would be wise to be working on his body. He needs to get a lot stronger to be able to bang with inside players, which it seems to me he is. I don't see him on the wing, as he didn't demonstrate -- at least last year -- either the shot or the handle to play wing at Duke. Especially considering the other options we're going to have at wing.

What I saw in Josh last year was a Lance Thomas-type potential. Never going to be a big scorer, but a guy who can defend and board and bring a lot of energy. Nothing wrong with that. We have plenty of guys to score. And Lance Thomas was a starter on a national championship team. Having someone play that type of game would be a big asset for this year's squad.

[UrinalCake]

I am by no means a hoops guru, but I have never heard of a sophomore redshirting, in any sport.

[licc85]

I am by no means a hoops guru, but I have never heard of a sophomore redshirting, in any sport.

I'm sure SOME soph at one point blew out his knee or something and decided to redshirt for a year to preserve his year of eligibility in an otherwise lost season.

[Acymetric]

I'm sure SOME soph at one point blew out his knee or something and decided to redshirt for a year to preserve his year of eligibility in an otherwise lost season.

Duke football had a senior redshirt (with no injury) because we were so stacked at TE that we thought we could use him better the following year. I want to say Danny Parker.

[buddy]

I am by no means a hoops guru, but I have never heard of a sophomore redshirting, in any sport.

IIRC, Duke tried to redshirt Crawford Palmer after his junior year. And Palmer did not reject the idea, but transferred to Dartmouth anyway. And didn't Steve Johnson take a redshirt year? And Patrick Davidson? (I know, not what you are talking about, but just sayin'.)

As for redshirting, in this day of "leaving early", I think it is a mistake to assume that if you redshirt a player you will get a 5th year of eligibility, unless that player is a marginal talent to begin with. All players who come to Duke have the NBA dream. Redshirting will not get Duke an extra year unless they agree they are not likely to ever go to the NBA. I will not be stunned if Duke redshirts someone this year, but I will not be surprised if they don't either.

Big men tend to develop later, which would indicate maybe Alex Murphy or MP3 would be redshirt candidates. But I think everyone agrees that Murphy has NBA-potential talent. MP3 is supposed to be a legitimate seven footer. You can't coach height, and if NBA rosters stay the same after the CBA (in terms of size), he is likely to play in the league. See Randolph, Shavlik. Now Josh is more of a tweener, so would be a more likely candidate for redshirt. But I agree it is more problematic to redshirt a sophomore than a freshman, absent a serious injury.

So if anyone is going to redshirt, it likely will be a definite four year (or in this case five year) player, with marginal NBA prospects. Otherwise, we will trade no minutes this season for no minutes five seasons ahead. Not a good trade.

[jimsumner]

I am by no means a hoops guru, but I have never heard of a sophomore redshirting, in any sport.

Matt Christensen redshirted in 1999, his sophomore year. But that was after a two-year Mormon Mission, so it's an unusual situation.

But he's one of only three non-injury redshirts during K's tenure; George Burgin and Kenny Blakeney were the other two. So, K historically is disinclined to redshirt for non-injury purposes. Then again, he's historically disinclined to have 12 recruited players. So, we shall see.

[J.Blink]

MP3 is supposed to be a legitimate seven footer. You can't coach height, and if NBA rosters stay the same after the CBA (in terms of size), he is likely to play in the league.

IIRC, the exact same thing was said about Zoubek...wish it had held true. I haven't heard anything about him lately, but hope it does pan out!

[Devilsfan]

I hope we redshirt Marshal and let him put some meat on those long skinney bones. I would love to see someone bang with the elite bigs of the ACC like Shel, Brand and most recently Zoubs (for his last 2+ months of his career).

[gep]

I thought that was more kyle....but my memory goes quickly.

I think what I meant was... while Kyle was the primary defender on Barnes... when Andre defended Barnes, I thought he did a good job (maybe it's*my* memory:cool: )

[Indoor66]

I think what I meant was... while Kyle was the primary defender on Barnes... when Andre defended Barnes, I thought he did a good job (maybe it's*my* memory:cool: )

I agree with you that Andre did a very credible job defending Barnes.

[MCFinARL]

I agree with you that Andre did a very credible job defending Barnes.

Me too. I think Andre's defense has come a long way since he arrived at Duke (with an occasional detour here or there)--and he does especially well on small forward-type players rather than on speedy ball handlers who can sometimes get past him. While he is probably never going to be defensive player of the year, I think the "Andre isn't good at defense" meme is out of date.

[UrinalCake]

Marshall does seem the most likely to redshirt (in the absence of any real information) but getting to play with both of his brothers could be a counter to that. Now granted he would still practice with the team, and if he doesn't redshirt he may not see that much floor time, but I would think that being an active player feels a lot different than a redshirt. Also, in terms of draftability, the NBA likes younger players. If you're a fifth-year senior then you'd have to be pretty darn good for the NBA to be interested in you. So it's unlikely that someone would want to save that fifth year of eligibility unless they're not NBA material to begin with.

Regarding a non-freshman redshirting, I would think it's more likely that a player would transfer rather than redshirt. I'm not trying to start any rumors here, just saying that for a hypothetical player at any school, if you're in a position where a younger player is taking playing time from you, the odds of you getting that time back after taking a year off aren't very good and you'd probably be better off at another school. Just my opinion.

[UrinalCake]

Matt Christensen redshirted in 1999, his sophomore year. But that was after a two-year Mormon Mission, so it's an unusual situation.

But he's one of only three non-injury redshirts during K's tenure; George Burgin and Kenny Blakeney were the other two. So, K historically is disinclined to redshirt for non-injury purposes. Then again, he's historically disinclined to have 12 recruited players. So, we shall see.

As I said before I'm not the guru, but from glancing at GoDuke.com's stats page it looks like Blakeney and Burgin were redshirted as freshmen. So does that make Christensen the only non-freshman non-injury redshirt under K?

[jimsumner]

As I said before I'm not the guru, but from glancing at GoDuke.com's stats page it looks like Blakeney and Burgin were redshirted as freshmen. So does that make Christensen the only non-freshman non-injury redshirt under K?

Yes.

[dukeballboy88]

I wouldnt redshirt anyone. K does a great job of getting everyone time early in the season so he will figure out the rotation by ACC play. Some freshmen may have to realize that they may not play that much this year but their time will come.

Dawkins needs to start early and gets some confidence. He has all the potential and a NBA body that can get off the floor with the best of them so Im thinking this is the year he makes the leap kind of like Nolan Smith did.

Seth
Austin
Andre
Miles
Mason


Ill take that starting 5 over any in the nation!

[Acymetric]

I don't think Andre has shown us anything to justify penciling him in as a starter at this point.

If he put in good work in the offseason and proves to the coaches that he's earned it he'll get the start, but that 3 spot is wide open at this point in my eyes.

[NSDukeFan]

I don't think Andre has shown us anything to justify penciling him in as a starter at this point.

If he put in good work in the offseason and proves to the coaches that he's earned it he'll get the start, but that 3 spot is wide open at this point in my eyes.

Andre has shown me lots in his two years with Duke. I enjoyed the regional championship Duke won in 2009-10 with two very large 3s Andre hit against a very tough Baylor squad. He seemed to be solid defensively at times his freshman year and more so last year. He has one of the nicest looking shots I have ever seen and seems to be improving in other facets of the game. I agree that you may not want to write his name down in pen as the starter for the whole season, but he has definitely shown a lot more at the college level than any other candidate for the 3 position, so I would certainly pencil him in as the starter for now.

[jimsumner]

Andre has shown me lots in his two years with Duke. I enjoyed the regional championship Duke won in 2009-10 with two very large 3s Andre hit against a very tough Baylor squad. He seemed to be solid defensively at times his freshman year and more so last year. He has one of the nicest looking shots I have ever seen and seems to be improving in other facets of the game. I agree that you may not want to write his name down in pen as the starter for the whole season, but he has definitely shown a lot more at the college level than any other candidate for the 3 position, so I would certainly pencil him in as the starter for now.

Dawkins has shown flashes of brilliance over the last two seasons. Star potential. But he has been unable thus far to show the consistency of effort and execution that will lead him to fulfill that potential. He's an upperclassman now and it's time for him to step up. Duke needs players to fill the void left by Singler, Smith and Irving. The opportunity is there for the seizing.

[Duvall]

I don't think Andre has shown us anything to justify penciling him in as a starter at this point.

If he put in good work in the offseason and proves to the coaches that he's earned it he'll get the start, but that 3 spot is wide open at this point in my eyes.

As opposed to the freshmen?

Every spot should be wide open at this point.

[chrisheery]

It is easily forgotten, but Andre is a very young junior. He could be better thought of as a sophomore with more experience than any sophomore in the country (he played in a national championship run). When you look back on guys with great talent, as I believe he has, the majority of those guys make a big jump from sophomore to junior year. If he can make that jump this year, he will be a really good player this year and will deserve a start. I hope he does. I think he could be very special for Duke. I also think he has all the tools to make it in the NBA if he can improve his ball handling.

[Newton_14]

Andre has all of the tools to be a star in College Hoops. The two key areas for him are improving his ball-handling and his committment to bring 100% effort even when things are not going well. He has a tendency to sulk and that got him in the doghouse last year. It started in the 2nd Half of the NC State road game. He started that game and played well in the first half but a few bad/non calls went against him and he let it get in his head. He played sparingly for several games after that.

However, he came on strong toward the end of the year and I thought he played really well down the stretch and in the 2 tournaments. Andre had his mojo back.

I cannot wait to see him out at Central in the next couple of weeks to see how he looks. I think he is going to have a really good year and expect him to be a starter from day 1.

Could be wrong, but that is my honest take at this point.

[Son of Jarhead]

...mixed up Dawkins and Curry.

I think you're right, OldSchool. He had to have been thinking of Seth, not Andre.

I predict a good year for Andre. It's his time to shine.:D

[uh_no]

Seth
Austin
Andre
Miles
Mason


Ill take that starting 5 over any in the nation!

I mean...given we're duke fans of course we'd want duke's front 5. But it would be silly to pretend that these 5 are the best in the nation right now. Plenty of potential? of course. Have had moments of greatness? yup. would be my choice of players to put out on the court if I could choose any in the nation? probably not right now.