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NovaScotian
06-27-2011, 01:19 PM
Does anyone know who the second highest paid Duke employee is? Is it PresBro? Who is the highest paid faculty member?

CameronBornAndBred
06-27-2011, 01:26 PM
I don't know, but my guess would be Coach Cut.

sagegrouse
06-27-2011, 01:54 PM
Coach Cut is a good guess, although Dr. Dzau, head of the DU Health System, made over $2 million in FY 2009 (Jun 30). Brodhead made $825 thousand then, and I guess that hasn't changed in light of the salary freeze (just lifted) and the big-time loss of endowment value in 2008-2009.

In truth, the docs at DUHS can make a bunch more than is revealed, as Duke uses a special structure so that fee income does not have to be reported publicly. Some of the guys (and gals?) at Fuqua also have double sources of Duke-connected income.

Here's a link on a blog seeking to stir the pot on high salaries at Duke (http://dukefactchecker.blogspot.com/2010/09/what-financial-crisis-duke-salaries-and.html).

sagegrouse

devildeac
06-27-2011, 01:54 PM
Does anyone know who the second highest paid Duke employee is? Is it PresBro? Who is the highest paid faculty member?


I don't know, but my guess would be Coach Cut.

I'd bet (a small amount of CB&B's money, of course) that Dr. Dzau is in the top 5 also.

hudlow
06-27-2011, 03:00 PM
Whatever they pay Coach K...it's not enough.

duke79
06-27-2011, 03:17 PM
Reading that blog (and assuming it is accurate), it is expensive to run a major university, especially one that tries to maintain a top class athletic program. Are all of the people listed in that blog really worth the sort of money that Duke is paying them? Who knows? One could argue that their salaries are determined by the labor market but do we really know what people are worth in a truly free market for their services. Always hard to guess what Duke has to be paying these people. The ones that stand out the most to me are the salaries of the full professors. They seem to be quite well paid for what is a relatively light teaching load and a substantial period of the year "off".

MCFinARL
06-27-2011, 03:43 PM
Reading that blog (and assuming it is accurate), it is expensive to run a major university, especially one that tries to maintain a top class athletic program. Are all of the people listed in that blog really worth the sort of money that Duke is paying them? Who knows? One could argue that their salaries are determined by the labor market but do we really know what people are worth in a truly free market for their services. Always hard to guess what Duke has to be paying these people. The ones that stand out the most to me are the salaries of the full professors. They seem to be quite well paid for what is a relatively light teaching load and a substantial period of the year "off".

Well, that is true, I guess, if you believe that their job is teaching. But the assumptions underlying most methods of faculty promotion and compensation are that the primary job of tenured and tenure-track professors is research and scholarship, with teaching an additional duty. (Most universities expect a fair dose of committee or other administration-related work as well.) And that time "off" is, theoretically, to be devoted to more extended periods of research and writing, or travel related to scholarship, without the distractions of the teaching year.

Whether or not this is how it should be is, of course, very arguable. But it does mean that there is supposed to be a lot more work going on that just the teaching. And given that, even in this economy, law firms are still hiring a certain number of brand new lawyers who will probably spend a couple of years doing little or nothing a paralegal couldn't do for $160,000, $140,000-$160,000 for an experienced professor with one or more PhDs and a body of published work doesn't really bug me as much as some of the other salaries and bonuses on that blog.

sagegrouse
06-27-2011, 06:21 PM
Reading that blog (and assuming it is accurate), it is expensive to run a major university, especially one that tries to maintain a top class athletic program. Are all of the people listed in that blog really worth the sort of money that Duke is paying them? Who knows? One could argue that their salaries are determined by the labor market but do we really know what people are worth in a truly free market for their services. Always hard to guess what Duke has to be paying these people. The ones that stand out the most to me are the salaries of the full professors. They seem to be quite well paid for what is a relatively light teaching load and a substantial period of the year "off".

Here's the quote from the blog:


By comparison, the latest survey by the American Association of University Professors shows Duke's male full professors earn an average of $164,700 and female $146,800. Male associate professors average $109,700 while females are $89,100. And male assistant professors are averaging $96,300, while females are $79,500. The numbers are for nine month contracts.

The academic market is very much a "free market" in my observation and experience. Except for the market-limiting effects of tenure rules, which actually tend to depress overall salaries. Top professors in any legitimate field are sought by major universities all over the U.S., and in the United States, major universities are willing to hire from abroad (the reverse tends not to be true, as national universities in Europe are very nation-centric).

I used to study the AAUP numbers religiously when I was thinking of an academic career, and the figures (used to) include university contributions to vested pensions (TIAA-CREF). The $160K for full professors seems like fair pay for eminent professors and hardly finances a lavish lifestyle. The limited teaching loads are misleading because the top professors have PhD candidates, who are closely supervised, and also because much of their time is spent on research and writing. Their research, publications, conferences and off-campus lectures all redound to the benefit of Duke. Certainly, academics in science, engineering, and economics/business can earn consulting incomes or can start companies on the side. And academic medicine is whole nother subject. But in the traditional liberal arts, these opportunities are limited, so what you see is what you get.

Professor salaries are comparable to U.S. government salaries. Meanwhile, premier law firms routinely hire associates at starting salaries of over $150 thousand.

sagegrouse

DevilWearsPrada
06-28-2011, 10:45 AM
I don't know, but my guess would be Coach Cut.

When Coach Cut was hired, in 2008, his salary was over 1 million dollars. (1.2 - 1.5 million range).


Coach K is Duke University! And Duke Basketball has elevated the DUKE Name and Brand to International levels. You cant pay for advertising and marketing on a national or international level that Coach K has elevated Duke to!

Coach K is worthy and deserving of his Duke salary, and then some! He brings so many intangibles to Duke University, The medical center, athletics and academics.

johnb
06-28-2011, 11:02 AM
Does the basketball team bring $5m worth of PR to the university?
Yes.

Would the basketball team be as good with a different coach?
We were a top 10 program before he arrived, but we are arguably THE top program since he arrived.

Is the incremental difference worth $5m in terms of PR?
Yes

Do I like the fact that a sports coach makes so much more money than a professor?
No

Is it odd that K apparently makes 4 times as much as ol' Roy?
Yes

Is $5m a lot of money?
It's become a winner-take-all economy, and all manners of professions/jobs heavily reward those who are at the apex. It's obviously true in sports (though only for a handful of sports, and stars better be the right gender if they want to get the windfall that is baseball/softball or basketball). But it's also true in business and law, where some lawyers make Coach K's income as partners in big law firms (which are conservative places, by and large, as opposed to entrepreneurial places or hedge funds, where the top producers can totally rake it in--eg, the guy who runs an insurance company who made $500m in the space of a few years; there's a lot of money to be made, apparently, in depriving people of medical reimbursement). Anyway, those guys wouldn't blink an eye at the "investment" in the coach of such a visible program--and those are the guys who pay K even more money to come speak to them during the offseason.

I don't begrudge K his income, but I do dislike an economic system that pays so much to very few while the rest of the country's income stays flat. It's one thing to start microsoft (though I'd have other issues with monopolies), but it's another to be the CEO of Coca Cola, GE, or Duke basketball. Those positions are going to attract very competent people; do incomes beyond, say, $1m to run an already-established concern make for a better product, or does it simply reflect a system that is out of whack?

Bluedog
06-28-2011, 11:03 AM
^I'm sure that the DukeFactChecker blogger would complain if Duke reduced its faculty salaries since that might lead to a decline in the US News and World Report's rankings since salary accounts for 7% of the total ranking. He'd then say Duke isn't doing enough to keep up with the standards of other top universities and if Duke wants to attract top faculty and keep up its reputation, it needs to pay the people who do the most for it. Right? ;)

Pay is dictated by the market. Coach K easily could have left for more money, and Duke is showing its appreciation by increasing his pay to at least be in the same stratosphere as some pro teams, but obviously not Laker level. He's absolutely worth every penny (in my biased opinion)! It was moderately amusing that a few years ago the highest paid federal employee in the NATION was the Navy football coach, Paul Johnson.

roywhite
06-28-2011, 11:11 AM
Does the basketball team bring $5m worth of PR to the university?
Yes.

Would the basketball team be as good with a different coach?
We were a top 10 program before he arrived, but we are arguably THE top program since he arrived.Is the incremental difference worth $5m in terms of PR?
Yes

Do I like the fact that a sports coach makes so much more money than a professor?
No

Is it odd that K apparently makes 4 times as much as ol' Roy?
Yes

Is $5m a lot of money?
It's become a winner-take-all economy, and all manners of professions/jobs heavily reward those who are at the apex. It's obviously true in sports (though only for a handful of sports, and stars better be the right gender if they want to get the windfall that is baseball/softball or basketball). But it's also true in business and law, where some lawyers make Coach K's income as partners in big law firms (which are conservative places, by and large, as opposed to entrepreneurial places or hedge funds, where the top producers can totally rake it in--eg, the guy who runs an insurance company who made $500m in the space of a few years; there's a lot of money to be made, apparently, in depriving people of medical reimbursement). Anyway, those guys wouldn't blink an eye at the "investment" in the coach of such a visible program--and those are the guys who pay K even more money to come speak to them during the offseason.

I don't begrudge K his income, but I do dislike an economic system that pays so much to very few while the rest of the country's income stays flat. It's one thing to start microsoft (though I'd have other issues with monopolies), but it's another to be the CEO of Coca Cola, GE, or Duke basketball. Those positions are going to attract very competent people; do incomes beyond, say, $1m to run an already-established concern make for a better product, or does it simply reflect a system that is out of whack?

It's mostly a philosophical discussion about being overpaid or fairly paid, but I'll take issue with your characterization of Duke basketball pre-K. We were a top 10 program for a good portion of the 1960's under Vic Bubas, but top 10 appearances were a rarity in the 1970's; yes, of course there was the Banks/Spanarkel/Gminski era, but even that team was not consistently top 10.

No doubt Coach K rebuilt the program and has surpassed previous levels of success.

Orange&BlackSheep
06-28-2011, 11:17 AM
Can someone explain to me what was meant by the quotation on the front page commentary on K's salary?

"We don’t have any idea what entities like Harvard or the NFL pay for advertising, but it’s a lot more than that."

Harvard pays for advertising?

epoulsen
06-28-2011, 11:24 AM
Is this thread really in good taste? I mean, just because someone is a figure head of a school or institution doesn't really mean we should discuss their salary so freely, even if the information was made public by said school or institution, as it's more of a matter of respect. Granted, most of us don't work with these individuals and it just confirms what we all basically knew, however I know that I would not be comfortable with anyone discussing my income so openly with others regardless of who they were or what they have inferred. I promise I'm not on a soap box or lecturing, its just my two cents. I'm actually OK with discussing this stuff for people at the pro level so I guess I feel that there's also an element of sullying this sport and program with all this talk of money.

Teton Jack
06-28-2011, 01:54 PM
At least K can measure his success and the impact on the Duke community in tangible ways. There are a lot of professors who would be hard pressed to prove their value. As a father of a law student who does have a job this fall, my daughter may make a good salary now for her limited experience, but if she's not a "keeper", she'll be out on her ear very quickly. There's a steep learning curve and she must perform. Not every profession has that requirement.

JG Nothing
06-28-2011, 02:13 PM
At least K can measure his success and the impact on the Duke community in tangible ways. There are a lot of professors who would be hard pressed to prove their value. As a father of a law student who does have a job this fall, my daughter may make a good salary now for her limited experience, but if she's not a "keeper", she'll be out on her ear very quickly. There's a steep learning curve and she must perform. Not every profession has that requirement.

Professors at Duke are not "hard pressed" to prove their value. There is this thing called tenure. Faculty members do not get tenure unless they prove their value to their department, college/school. university P&T committee, president, and Board of Trustees.

kexman
06-28-2011, 02:18 PM
I love sports, but I think they are overemphasized in society. Of course I went to Indy to watch the Final 4, but have not made it to the math olympiad or chess club tournaments lately:) With that being said...I would love to see an MBA run an analysis of what coach K brings to the table. I have a feeling it is astronomical. PR firms have a number for every time Nascar flashes your logo...can we do an estimate for coach K?

Just in televised games (advertising), increased admissions, increased donations, and brand recognition we must be talking a huge number. Nike paid Tiger Woods about 30 million per year...that seems at least a reasonable starting place.

*pre incident you could make an argument that there was no other golfer that could replace Tiger in marketing or launching a golf line and so increased his overall value. There may not be as much of a difference between coach K and the number 2 coach in america (ie. Is Kansas's basketball program worth that much less than Duke's).

sagegrouse
06-28-2011, 03:02 PM
At least K can measure his success and the impact on the Duke community in tangible ways. There are a lot of professors who would be hard pressed to prove their value. As a father of a law student who does have a job this fall, my daughter may make a good salary now for her limited experience, but if she's not a "keeper", she'll be out on her ear very quickly. There's a steep learning curve and she must perform. Not every profession has that requirement.


Professors at Duke are not "hard pressed" to prove their value. There is this thing called tenure. Faculty members do not get tenure unless they prove their value to their department, college/school. university P&T committee, president, and Board of Trustees.

There are two ways to measure a worker's value: how much he or she produces and what it is worth. In services industries, like education, measuring individual productivity is very hard because of difficulties measuring output (how much did students learn? what's that worth?). Moreover, there are other factors of production atplay. Even with K's success, Duke University -- its reputation, its people [students and staff] and its facilities -- was a factor. His value may not have been as great at a different school (like Direction State U.).

The other method is the price (salary and benefits) that other employers are willing to pay for services. This is the labor market. I remember as a grad student, every time we brought in a distinguished academic from another school to give a seminar, there was a discussion with the chairman about whether he would be willing to relocate. For big names and up-and-comers in academic fields, there is a clearly a well-defined and vibrant market. For new PhD's, not so much.

sagegrouse

AZLA
06-28-2011, 04:00 PM
Free market, almost. He gets what he commands at the collegiate level, and actually, one might argue he gets paid a heck of a lot less than if he were to have coached pro or broken out independently with his own commercial brand like many pro athletes do. I realize he does promotional speaking, et al., but to me that means he's able to contribute more to his many philanthropic endeavors. There's no other coach at any level of basketball, or in any sport for that matter, that has as an established reputation. So in essence, he's technically undervalued. At the same time, I'm glad he never speaks about compensation today just like he didn't when he started out making peanuts. Doesn't matter. He'd be doing what he's doing (and as well) coaching at a local military base or YMCA, and developing young people with the same enthusiasm as he does now. Point is because of his longevity at Duke University (which is unheard of in this day and age) both Coach K (based on his performance) and the University have both equally seen the reward of their successes. At the same time, even though he's the highest salaried employee (technically speaking), he actually chose a much less lucrative arena than if he were in the open market.

MCFinARL
06-28-2011, 06:51 PM
Can someone explain to me what was meant by the quotation on the front page commentary on K's salary?

"We don’t have any idea what entities like Harvard or the NFL pay for advertising, but it’s a lot more than that."

Harvard pays for advertising?

Fair question. I don't know that Harvard pays for "advertising" as we might think of it (we aren't likely to see "I'm a Cantab" [or "I'm a Tiger," for that matter] on TV like "I'm a Phoenix" any time soon). But they surely have a very large budget for communications and public relations--think of the thousands and thousands of letters they send unsolicited to prospective applicants with high SATs (mostly so they can have the pleasure of rejecting them, I assume), the glossy brochures, and the money that likely goes into community relations efforts to ease town-gown relations, among other things. How that amount might compare to Coach K's salary is not a question I can answer, though.