Re . Root of Duke - UNC Rivalry

[Zeke]

I beg to differ from the article. I first attended Duke in 1956 and the Duke /UNC rivalry was very much in place then - well before the 1961 fight clip. I submit that the fight was a result of an ongoing rivalry - not the beginning of it.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I beg to differ from the article. I first attended Duke in 1956 and the Duke /UNC rivalry was very much in place then - well before the 1961 fight clip. I submit that the fight was a result of an ongoing rivalry - not the beginning of it.
I agree with you.

One milestone of the rivalry involves Frank McGuire and Bill Murray. My understanding was that there was some sort of bad blood between the two men before 1961 and that bad feeling was underlying Carolina's running up the score against Duke in the 1959 televised football game. Carolina won 50-0.

"The fight" certainly turned up the heat in the rivalry, but was not the origin of the rivalry.

Maybe some older than I can offer some other examples which occurred before 1961.

[roywhite]

It's certainly been a big rivalry in the 40+ years I've been involved as a fan; reading stories and talking to older alums, it goes back at least to the time of Wallace Wade at Duke, and perhaps before that.

Would it be more accurate to say that the fight in 1961 raised the level of rivalry in basketball?

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

It's certainly been a big rivalry in the 40+ years I've been involved as a fan; reading stories and talking to older alums, it goes back at least to the time of Wallace Wade at Duke, and perhaps before that.

Would it be more accurate to say that the fight in 1961 raised the level of rivalry in basketball?
Well stated! Based on everything I've read and heard over the years, the rivalry was going on when Duke had a different name and Carolina had a different mascot.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

I agree with you.

One milestone of the rivalry involves Frank McGuire and Bill Murray. My understanding was that there was some sort of bad blood between the two men before 1961 and that bad feeling was underlying Carolina's running up the score against Duke in the 1959 televised football game. Carolina won 50-0.

"The fight" certainly turned up the heat in the rivalry, but was not the origin of the rivalry.

Maybe some older than I can offer some other examples which occurred before 1961.

To clarify a bit: Bill Murray, Duke's football coach, was also responsible for the athletic facilities during the late fifties and early sixties..... somewhat like Coach D'Armi did for years.

Frank McGuire made a demand/comment during the 1958-59 basketball season which Coach Murray found offensive. (I think it was something about not feeling safe in then Indoor Stadium.) When the Durham paper interviewed Coach Murray about it, he didn't hold back in countering McGuire's comment.

McGuire was buddies with some of the football coaches and shared his side of the squabble with them, encouraging some sort of pay back the next time Carolina played a Duke team coached by Murray..... which was November 1959.

Perhaps Jim Sumner can do a better job than I have to shed some light on this aspect of the rivalry.

[Jarhead]

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gifhttp://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/devil9f.gif
For me the rivalry started on November 19, 1949 with 57,500 fans in attendance at Duke. Duke lost 21-20, and IIRC that was the game in which Mike Souchak's field goal attempt was blocked in the closing seconds by Art Weiner. It would have won the game. The run up to the game was as intense as anything I've seen since then, but the intensity of the rivalry was already an established truth for which all freshmen were thoroughly indoctrinated.

[Olympic Fan]

I agree with you.

One milestone of the rivalry involves Frank McGuire and Bill Murray. My understanding was that there was some sort of bad blood between the two men before 1961 and that bad feeling was underlying Carolina's running up the score against Duke in the 1959 televised football game. Carolina won 50-0.

"The fight" certainly turned up the heat in the rivalry, but was not the origin of the rivalry.

Maybe some older than I can offer some other examples which occurred before 1961.

Let me offer some perspective.

Duke and UNC certainly were rivals -- even bitter rivals -- before the '61 fight. However, before than time it was primarily a FOOTBALL rivalry. I think it would be fair to say that in the '30s and '40s ... and even into the '50s (when the Dixie Classic began to emerge), the Duke-UNC football game was the most significant annual sporting event in the State.

The game itself was surrounded by homecoming-like events, including the "Beat Duke" parade (actually, they used that other spelling for Duke that the message board won't let me quote accurately).

Basketball between the two schools was still fiercely competitive, but it was clearly second place to football. Starting with some of the games in the late '40s (which were the highest attendence of any sporting event in the state for 20-plus years) to the late '50s -- the 50-0 UNC rout of 1959 (on national TV, no less), the bitter 7-6 loss in 1960 and an incredible 6-3 Duke win in '61.

There were some great basketball moments ... the undefeated 1957 UNC basketball team only survived against Duke in Chapel Hill because of a scoreboard malfunction. In 1958, Duke got revenge with a sweep, but an ugly postgame scene in Durham led to that very public feud between McGuire and Murray (who was in charge of stadium operations).

The thing was, football was more important than basketball in that era. It wasn't until Duke hired Vic Bubas and his first act was to steal Art Heyman from UNC (Heyman was committed and signed to attend UNC) that basketball began to challenge football.

And I think it was that 1961 game -- the first time Duke and UNC ever met as two top 5 teams -- and the fight that followed that first pushed basketball past football -- for good.

In that sense, it WAS the birth of the rivalry -- the birth of Duke-Carolina basketball as the most intense, hotly contested, important rivalry in all of college sports.

[DevilWearsPrada]

To clarify a bit: Bill Murray, Duke's football coach, was also responsible for the athletic facilities during the late fifties and early sixties..... somewhat like Coach D'Armi did for years.

Frank McGuire made a demand/comment during the 1958-59 basketball season which Coach Murray found offensive. (I think it was something about not feeling safe in then Indoor Stadium.) When the Durham paper interviewed Coach Murray about it, he didn't hold back in countering McGuire's comment.

McGuire was buddies with some of the football coaches and shared his side of the squabble with them, encouraging some sort of pay back the next time Carolina played a Duke team coached by Murray..... which was November 1959.

Perhaps Jim Sumner can do a better job than I have to shed some light on this aspect of the rivalry.

Thanks for all the information on the rivalry! I am sure Jim will Add LIGHT on the topic as he is so knowledgable.

Would the 8 - 10 mile (depends on maps or gps) between Cameron Indoor Stadium and the Smith Center, also increase the Rivalry?

Are there any other Division I programs, that are closer than Duke/Unc? In North Carolina, the local sports radio networks and TV elevate the Rivalry even more!

I remember as a child, we went to Duke Football and Basketball games. And NEVER ever pulled for Carolina, ever! Not until Middle School, or maybe High School, that I understood the Rivalry. It has greatly intensified since those days.

Go Duke! GTHC!

[sagegrouse]

Thanks for all the information on the rivalry! I am sure Jim will Add LIGHT on the topic as he is so knowledgable.

Would the 8 - 10 mile (depends on maps or gps) between Cameron Indoor Stadium and the Smith Center, also increase the Rivalry?

Are there any other Division I programs, that are closer than Duke/Unc? In North Carolina, the local sports radio networks and TV elevate the Rivalry even more!



UCLA-USC. The schools are only 9.5 miles apart, according to Google Maps.

sagegrouse

[Olympic Fan]

UCLA-USC. The schools are only 9.5 miles apart, according to Google Maps.

sagegrouse

Don't kown about google maps, but I've seen aerial surveys that have the Duke-UNC campuses 8.5 miiles. I've personally measured the drive from Cameron to the mith Center -- by the closest route its 11.3 miles ... but that's from arena to arena. The campuses are closer.

[sagegrouse]

Don't kown about google maps, but I've seen aerial surveys that have the Duke-UNC campuses 8.5 miiles. I've personally measured the drive from Cameron to the mith Center -- by the closest route its 11.3 miles ... but that's from arena to arena. The campuses are closer.

"... without getting killed or caught."

As a former resident of LA, I am not maintaining that UCLA-USC are closer than Duke-Carolina, but that the distances are comparable. And the closeness produces an intense rivalry. Actually the LA traffic makes the two schools a lot further apart than Durham-Chapel Hill. Moreover, UCLA plays football up in the Rose Bowl, a long way from campus.

sagegrouse

[Rich]

Don't kown about google maps, but I've seen aerial surveys that have the Duke-UNC campuses 8.5 miiles. I've personally measured the drive from Cameron to the mith Center -- by the closest route its 11.3 miles ... but that's from arena to arena. The campuses are closer.

I always thought the 8.5 miles was an "as the crow flies" measurement, not driving distance.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Let me offer some perspective.

Duke and UNC certainly were rivals -- even bitter rivals -- before the '61 fight. However, before than time it was primarily a FOOTBALL rivalry. I think it would be fair to say that in the '30s and '40s ... and even into the '50s (when the Dixie Classic began to emerge), the Duke-UNC football game was the most significant annual sporting event in the State.

The game itself was surrounded by homecoming-like events, including the "Beat Duke" parade (actually, they used that other spelling for Duke that the message board won't let me quote accurately).

Basketball between the two schools was still fiercely competitive, but it was clearly second place to football. Starting with some of the games in the late '40s (which were the highest attendence of any sporting event in the state for 20-plus years) to the late '50s -- the 50-0 UNC rout of 1959 (on national TV, no less), the bitter 7-6 loss in 1960 and an incredible 6-3 Duke win in '61.

There were some great basketball moments ... the undefeated 1957 UNC basketball team only survived against Duke in Chapel Hill because of a scoreboard malfunction. In 1958, Duke got revenge with a sweep, but an ugly postgame scene in Durham led to that very public feud between McGuire and Murray (who was in charge of stadium operations).

The thing was, football was more important than basketball in that era. It wasn't until Duke hired Vic Bubas and his first act was to steal Art Heyman from UNC (Heyman was committed and signed to attend UNC) that basketball began to challenge football.

And I think it was that 1961 game -- the first time Duke and UNC ever met as two top 5 teams -- and the fight that followed that first pushed basketball past football -- for good.

In that sense, it WAS the birth of the rivalry -- the birth of Duke-Carolina basketball as the most intense, hotly contested, important rivalry in all of college sports.

As one who lived through many of the decades you mentioned, I have a firsthand experience with the points you made, Olympic. I received a "Beat Duke " post card (with a different spelling of Duke), as did all other Duke students who went to their mailboxes that day back in the sixties. I heard my dad, also a Dukie, tell stories about the pranks, tricks and parades associated with the rivalry during the thirties when he was a student at Duke.

As big as the rivalry is today, it's been burning like embers from a banked fire since before anyone posting on this board was born. Today's rivalry is part of a very long continuum.

GO DUKE!

[wilko]

would Artie be willing to administer his special "Groin Therapy" to every UNC fan?

[Reilly]

Distance in the rivalry recently covered in the "Did Dean get married in the Chapel" thread:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?25485-Dean-Smith-got-married-in-the-Chapel&p=504153#post504153

10.8 miles
10.805 miles
8.668 miles
11.2176 miles

by various calculations ....

I think I'm going to start referring to them as 11 miles apart ....

[jdj4duke]

"... without getting killed or caught."


sagegrouse

Guy Clark or Jerry Jeff version of LA Freeway? That is a minor rivalry for fans.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Would the 8 - 10 mile (depends on maps or gps) between Cameron Indoor Stadium and the Smith Center, also increase the Rivalry?

Are there any other Division I programs, that are closer than Duke/Unc?


How about the Philadelphia schools .... Temple, St. Joe's, LaSalle, Villanova, Penn ???

[Reilly]

How about the Philadelphia schools .... Temple, St. Joe's, LaSalle, Villanova, Penn ???

Loyola University (Maryland) and Johns Hopkins have a Division I lax rivalry and are separated by less than 1 mile.

[sagegrouse]

Guy Clark or Jerry Jeff version of LA Freeway? That is a minor rivalry for fans.

I've seen both in person. Guy gets the nod because he wrote the song. Jerry Jeff, however, was an incredible judge of song material and popularized a whole bunch of songs he didn't write: LA Freeway, Redneck Mother, London Homesick Blues (the armadillo/Amarillo song), and -- uh --Trashy Women.

Of course, Jerry Jeff did write Mr. Bojangles and has made millions from the rights (unless he sold them).

sagegrouse

[B-well]

I beg to differ from the article. I first attended Duke in 1956 and the Duke /UNC rivalry was very much in place then - well before the 1961 fight clip. I submit that the fight was a result of an ongoing rivalry - not the beginning of it.

I was born in Durham - bred to hate UNC, even though some of my best friends went to school there - even my mother hated Carolina.

Saying that 1961 began the rivalry is like saying the Civil War began at Gettysburg.

The reason basketball now is the focal point of the rivalry is we have been so God-awful inept in football all but a few years since Bill Murray retired.

[jdj4duke]

I've seen both in person. Guy gets the nod because he wrote the song. Jerry Jeff, however, was an incredible judge of song material and popularized a whole bunch of songs he didn't write: LA Freeway, Redneck Mother, London Homesick Blues (the armadillo/Amarillo song), and -- uh --Trashy Women.

Of course, Jerry Jeff did write Mr. Bojangles and has made millions from the rights (unless he sold them).

sagegrouse

Thanks for another worthwhile DBR tangent
I like the JJW version of LA Freeway; a bit more rockin for me but Guy wins hands down for his version of "The Cape".

And while even farther afield, the best Jerry Jeff line, after getting pummeled in a bar fight, "You guys ain't so tough. I been beat up worse than this by bikers".

[Jarhead]

'Nuff said:
http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics22/400/PH/PHTCYGQWANREQOJ.20090211142045.jpg
Courtesy: Duke Sports Information
http://www.goduke.com
Dick Groat is carried off the court following his record-setting 48-point performance against North Carolina on Feb. 29, 1952. The Blue Devils routed the Tar Heels, 94-64, in Groat’s final home game.

The fans dressed a bit differently back then. I was at Quantico, Va. getting prepared to go to Korea, but I remember the Washington Post headlining the game.

[rasputin]

I was born in Durham - bred to hate UNC, even though some of my best friends went to school there - even my mother hated Carolina.

Saying that 1961 began the rivalry is like saying the Civil War began at Gettysburg.

The reason basketball now is the focal point of the rivalry is we have been so God-awful inept in football all but a few years since Bill Murray retired.

Or that WWII started when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor.

[Olympic Fan]

'Nuff said:
http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics22/400/PH/PHTCYGQWANREQOJ.20090211142045.jpg
Courtesy: Duke Sports Information
http://www.goduke.com
Dick Groat is carried off the court following his record-setting 48-point performance against North Carolina on Feb. 29, 1952. The Blue Devils routed the Tar Heels, 94-64, in Groat’s final home game.

The fans dressed a bit differently back then. I was at Quantico, Va. getting prepared to go to Korea, but I remember the Washington Post headlining the game.

But the great Groat moment actually emphasizes my point -- that basketball was secondary in the rivalry until the 1961 game.

That was the Senior Day game for the greatest player in Duke history (up until that point). It was the regular season finale against Duke's greatest rival.

And it wasn't a sellout ... not even close.

I repeat, basketball was competitive and interesting, but before 1961, basketball was secondary to football at Duke. The 1961 game changed the Duke-Carolina rivalry from a football one to a basketball one.

A better analogy than the Gettysburg/Civil War would be Pearl Harbor and WWII. Pearl Harbor wasn't the beginning of WWII -- it had already been ranging for two years in Europe and almost a decade in China. But Pearl Harbor WAS the beginning for the war for the United States.

The 1961 Duke-Carolina game was the Pearl Harbor of the Duke-Carolina rivalry that we know today.

[Indoor66]

A better analogy than the Gettysburg/Civil War would be Pearl Harbor and WWII. Pearl Harbor wasn't the beginning of WWII -- it had already been ranging for two years in Europe and almost a decade in China. But Pearl Harbor WAS the beginning for the war for the United States.

The 1961 Duke-Carolina game was the Pearl Harbor of the Duke-Carolina rivalry that we know today.

Seems you are getting close to a Haiti type analogy and we saw how that has worked out.... :cool:

[Jarhead]

But the great Groat moment actually emphasizes my point -- that basketball was secondary in the rivalry until the 1961 game.

That was the Senior Day game for the greatest player in Duke history (up until that point). It was the regular season finale against Duke's greatest rival.

And it wasn't a sellout ... not even close.

I repeat, basketball was competitive and interesting, but before 1961, basketball was secondary to football at Duke. The 1961 game changed the Duke-Carolina rivalry from a football one to a basketball one.

A better analogy than the Gettysburg/Civil War would be Pearl Harbor and WWII. Pearl Harbor wasn't the beginning of WWII -- it had already been ranging for two years in Europe and almost a decade in China. But Pearl Harbor WAS the beginning for the war for the United States.

The 1961 Duke-Carolina game was the Pearl Harbor of the Duke-Carolina rivalry that we know today.

Your analogies don't work. The rivalry was, is, and will always be in all sports. It is not something that drifts back and forth from sport to sport. The Groat era may have rejuvenated the interest in hoops at Duke, and had an effect on the rivalry, but, you know, the rivalry was not only in sports. I can remember some nastiness in the Rathskeller, and other places back in the day.

As for the 1952 game not being a sell out -- basketball was not a sellout anywhere in those days. The NBA was struggling to become mainstream, and stall ball was the norm. The fast break had not even been invented, yet. Groat and his contemporaries jump started it, and the Duke-UNC rivalry just embraced the growing sport. The Heyman/Brown bout resulted because of the rivalry. It did not create it.

[Turtleboy]

There were some great basketball moments ... the undefeated 1957 UNC basketball team only survived against Duke in Chapel Hill because of a scoreboard malfunction.
Can you elaborate on this?

[uh_no]

Can you elaborate on this?

After a certain event a few years ago, I think Duke is the last team that should be complaining about benefiting from 'scoreboard malfunctions'

[DevilWearsPrada]

Distance in the rivalry recently covered in the "Did Dean get married in the Chapel" thread:

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?25485-Dean-Smith-got-married-in-the-Chapel&p=504153#post504153

10.8 miles
10.805 miles
8.668 miles
11.2176 miles

by various calculations ....

I think I'm going to start referring to them as 11 miles apart ....

I have calculated about 11 miles From Cameron Indoor/Wallace Wade to Smith Center or Kenan.

However, the Roberson Bus picks up in the circle of Duke Chapel, and makes it way down 15/501 and picks up in front of the Chapel Hill Planetarium on Franklin Street. Someone should ask the Bus Driver, what the mileage is! Roberson Bus is a nice bus!!

[Olympic Fan]

Can you elaborate on this?

UNC led the game in Woolen Gym all the way until the final moments, when Duke staged a frantic rally, fueled by a fullcourt press.

In the last monute, guard Bobby Joe Harris twice came up with steals and fed Bob Vernon for a layup ... the second one tied the score with 16 seconds left.

The only trouble was that the small electronic scoreboard over the court at Woolen was invisible to the players. Instead, UNC used a small, handoperated scoreoard -- both for the players on the court and for the coaches' film (which also didn't show the electric scoreboard). The auxilary scoreboard consisted of panels that were flipped by a student to indicate the score and the number of minutes left.

But the end of the '57 game was so frantic that the student operating the scoreboard got so caught up in the game that he fell behind on his job. When Vernon scored to tie the game, he was one basket behind -- he flipped the panel, but stll have Duke down two points. Harris had lost track of the score himself ... he saw that Duke was down two, knew there were only seconds left, so he gambled on the steal and when he didn't get it, he intentionally fouled Tommy Kearns.

Now, UNC might have won anyway -- Rosenbluth was always making last-second shots for them. Still, he should have had to make such a shot and not have won on a pair of gift free throws.

[BlueDevilBaby]

The fast break had not even been invented, yet. Groat and his contemporaries jump started it, and the Duke-UNC rivalry just embraced the growing sport.

In "Black Magic" on ESPN I thought there was a claim that the fast break was invented by one or more teams from the Historically Black Colleges and Universities years before Groat's time. Perhaps it was just an up tempo style instead. Can't recall with any certainty. Great film.

[Indoor66]

I have calculated about 11 miles From Cameron Indoor/Wallace Wade to Smith Center or Kenan.

However, the Roberson Bus picks up in the circle of Duke Chapel, and makes it way down 15/501 and picks up in front of the Chapel Hill Planetarium on Franklin Street. Someone should ask the Bus Driver, what the mileage is! Roberson Bus is a nice bus!!

Chapel = 401 Chapel Dr, Durham, NC 27708

Morehead Planitarium = 250 East Franklin St, 27599

It is 10.805 driving miles and 8.668 miles as the crow flies between the two. (http://www.freemaptools.com/how-far-is-it-between.htm)

[Olympic Fan]

In "Black Magic" on ESPN I thought there was a claim that the fast break was invented by one or more teams from the Historically Black Colleges and Universities years before Groat's time. Perhaps it was just an up tempo style instead. Can't recall with any certainty. Great film.

It's silly to credit one person or one team with "inventing" the fast break.

To find the truth, you have to go back to the winter of 1937, when the NCAA changed the rules to eliminate the center jump after every basket. Believe me, before then there was no such thing as a fast break -- possession of the ball was too valuable. After every made basket, the game stopped, the two teams lined up at centercourt and you had a jump ball.

The 1937 rule change opened up the game, but only a few coaches saw the potential right away. One of the first was Branch McCracken at Indiana -- there's a reason his Indiana teams were dubbed the "Hurryin' Hoosiers."

Suprisingly, some of the first real work with fast-break basketball was done in Durham, N.C. Both a young assistant coach at North Carolina College of Negroes (now NCCU) and the director of the Durham YMCA experimented with various fast break tactics. Usually John McLendon (who soon became head coach at NCCN) is credited with being one of the first to develop the fullcourt press ... but the early 40s, his Central teams were frequently scoring in the 90s and 100s, unheard of scores just a few years later.

Footsie Knight, who directed the Durham Y program, taught a fastpaced game to a bunch of young players who took that game to Durham High, where they became the most celebrated high school team in the country. Over the three years from 1939 to 1941 they won 71 straight games (winning tournaments all over the Eastern seaboard, from New York to Florida) and playing at a dizzying pace. One of the Knight-inspired tactics was what was later called "Yankee" -- after a made basket, the center (usually Bones McKinney) would "yank" the ball out of the net and whip it upcourt (usually to Gordon Carver or one of the Loftis brothers) to start a fast break.

The tempo got another kick in the butt when Everett Case arrived at NC State in 1946. He was obviously influenced by McCracken. The year before he got there, the Pack averaged 41 points a game. His first year, they averaged 73 and the second, they averaged 82.

Duke played at a fast tempo during the Groat era, but it was nothing new or revolutionary. It ws just part of the evolution of fastbreak basketball from McLendon/Knight in 1938 through Case in the latev 1940s.

BTW, fastbreak basketball hit its peak with Vic Bubas in the ealy 1960s. His 1965 team averaged 92.4 points a game (in the pre shot-clock, 3-point shot era) -- that's still the most for a team in ACC history.

[Reilly]

Wonderful information as always, Olympic Fan. Thanks. Did Bones have a fast-breaking style as a coach, or any particular style? I'm getting old, but only know him as an avuncular figure on ACC telecasts, after his coaching days were long over, I believe.

[william e king]

Additional perspective on the rivalry. The rivalry started when the state university and private schools began competing for students. The athletic rivalry started when President John F. Crowell came to Trinity from Yale and observed UNC getting all the press and prestige when the Trinity curriculum, in his opinion, was as good as that at Chapel Hill. He introduced football and challenged UNC to a game played on Thanksgiving Day, 1887, at the state fairgrounds which Trinity won 16-0. Rivalries were fierce as football was launched across the state, but baseball was the most popular competition at the turn of the century. The then proximity of Trinity, Wake, State and UNC within 30 miles of each other was important.
Facilities are significant and Duke's new football stadium in 1929 played a part. When Duke kept UNC out of the Rose Bowl in 1935 and then was invited in 1939 and hosted it in 1942, football became the favored sport. However, the real rivalries were between Ga Tech with Bobby Dodd, Tenn with Bob Neyland and Duke with Wade. The Time magazine issue with Wade on the cover was because of an article about those coaching giants of southern football. Carolina became big time with the Justice era, post WWII. Ironically Duke used Rose Bowl money to build Cameron Indoor which really fed the rivalry, the largest arena in the South.
In my opinion TV is what fed the modern rivalry. I am undergraduate '61 and it was a really big deal to get on TV. Our football schedule was rearranged to get UNC on national TV one Thanksgiving Day which unfortunately I sat through as we lost 50-0. The Davidson with Lefty and Duke with Bubas rivalry is of significance but one of those games was on TV if I remember correctly. The ACC was an initial leader in contracting for television. Remember Jeff Std life insurance and "sail with the piolt."
Tickets to Cameron were much easier to obtain before TV sold the product. Respective graduates wildly supported their school but TV brought the average, nongrad fan to the table and the rest is history. Radio of course played a big role but TV took picking a favorite to discuss at school and work to a higher level. My 2 cents. . .

[headhill]

The rivalry in football between Duke and Carolina before 1960 rivaled the rivalry in basketball since then, except Duke was considered one of the 'Alabamas' of the South in football back then, and Carolina was not, as hard as it is now to believe that. The Duke football program was strong from 1931 when Wallace Wade took the AD/head Coach and intramural director jobs until he left for WWII in 1942 and then it was still strong but not overpowering when he returned to coach from 1946-1950.

UNC Coach Frank McGuire called Duke AD Eddie Cameron (of all people! THE nicest Southern gentleman you could ever want to meet) a 'prick' after another one of their tussles regarding McGuire's infractions on the recruiting trail or comments about Duke security after a game or some aspect of the ACC Tournament, etc....the list goes on forever it seems.

and that really made Duke Football Head Coach Bill Murray very angry...which added more fuel t the football AND the basketball rivalry in the late '50's/early '60s....

The Heyman/Brown fight just took the attention from the gridiron and started to focus it on the basketball court from then on.

The main difference in the 30's, 40's and 50's was that there were equal numbers of North Carolina high school players playing on both the Duke and Carolina squads so while there was the 'rivalry', there was not the enmity because they had grown up as friends as youth players. And then they all served together in WWII and played on teams like the Chapel Hill Pre-Flight football team before going of to serve in the Pacific, many of them.Future President Gerald Ford coached many of them during these days as well so it was more than a little difficult to truly 'hate' someone you grew up with or fought beside in war.

The rivalry was big though.....my dad, Dan Hill, Jr. who played on the 1938 Iron Duke team used to regale us with stories about those games with Carolina plus we got to meet many of the Caroline players over the years such as Charlie Justice, Crowell Little, Andy Berschak, Art Weiner and Ralph Strayhorn and got to hear 'their side of the storied rivalry....mostly all funny in some ways.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

The rivalry in football between Duke and Carolina before 1960 rivaled the rivalry in basketball since then, except Duke was considered one of the 'Alabamas' of the South in football back then, and Carolina was not, as hard as it is now to believe that. The Duke football program was strong from 1931 when Wallace Wade took the AD/head Coach and intramural director jobs until he left for WWII in 1942 and then it was still strong but not overpowering when he returned to coach from 1946-1950.

UNC Coach Frank McGuire called Duke AD Eddie Cameron (of all people! THE nicest Southern gentleman you could ever want to meet) a 'prick' after another one of their tussles regarding McGuire's infractions on the recruiting trail or comments about Duke security after a game or some aspect of the ACC Tournament, etc....the list goes on forever it seems.

and that really made Duke Football Head Coach Bill Murray very angry...which added more fuel t the football AND the basketball rivalry in the late '50's/early '60s....

The Heyman/Brown fight just took the attention from the gridiron and started to focus it on the basketball court from then on.

The main difference in the 30's, 40's and 50's was that there were equal numbers of North Carolina high school players playing on both the Duke and Carolina squads so while there was the 'rivalry', there was not the enmity because they had grown up as friends as youth players. And then they all served together in WWII and played on teams like the Chapel Hill Pre-Flight football team before going of to serve in the Pacific, many of them.Future President Gerald Ford coached many of them during these days as well so it was more than a little difficult to truly 'hate' someone you grew up with or fought beside in war.

The rivalry was big though.....my dad, Dan Hill, Jr. who played on the 1938 Iron Duke team used to regale us with stories about those games with Carolina plus we got to meet many of the Caroline players over the years such as Charlie Justice, Crowell Little, Andy Berschak, Art Weiner and Ralph Strayhorn and got to hear 'their side of the storied rivalry....mostly all funny in some ways.
Welcome to DBR! Our paths have crossed many times in the past. As recently as this past weekend I met one of the KA's who came along just after you and I were off campus and graduated.

I've tried in various threads to explain the intensity of this great rivalry and you've said it perhaps best of all!

Please check your PM folder for a follow up.

PS Over the years I have never revealed the true identity of Robert E. Lee's best friend. ;)

[ricks68]

The rivalry in football between Duke and Carolina before 1960 rivaled the rivalry in basketball since then, except Duke was considered one of the 'Alabamas' of the South in football back then, and Carolina was not, as hard as it is now to believe that. The Duke football program was strong from 1931 when Wallace Wade took the AD/head Coach and intramural director jobs until he left for WWII in 1942 and then it was still strong but not overpowering when he returned to coach from 1946-1950.

UNC Coach Frank McGuire called Duke AD Eddie Cameron (of all people! THE nicest Southern gentleman you could ever want to meet) a 'prick' after another one of their tussles regarding McGuire's infractions on the recruiting trail or comments about Duke security after a game or some aspect of the ACC Tournament, etc....the list goes on forever it seems.

and that really made Duke Football Head Coach Bill Murray very angry...which added more fuel t the football AND the basketball rivalry in the late '50's/early '60s....

The Heyman/Brown fight just took the attention from the gridiron and started to focus it on the basketball court from then on.

The main difference in the 30's, 40's and 50's was that there were equal numbers of North Carolina high school players playing on both the Duke and Carolina squads so while there was the 'rivalry', there was not the enmity because they had grown up as friends as youth players. And then they all served together in WWII and played on teams like the Chapel Hill Pre-Flight football team before going of to serve in the Pacific, many of them.Future President Gerald Ford coached many of them during these days as well so it was more than a little difficult to truly 'hate' someone you grew up with or fought beside in war.

The rivalry was big though.....my dad, Dan Hill, Jr. who played on the 1938 Iron Duke team used to regale us with stories about those games with Carolina plus we got to meet many of the Caroline players over the years such as Charlie Justice, Crowell Little, Andy Berschak, Art Weiner and Ralph Strayhorn and got to hear 'their side of the storied rivalry....mostly all funny in some ways.

Count me in on the accolade from DitBD. Please come back and visit more often.

ricks

[headhill]

Who says Duke fans are rude, crude and socially unacceptable?

Thanks for the warm welcome...I will return as often as I can....thanks again

[Verga3]

The 60's were some golden years for Duke football and basketball...Murray and Bubas. Thanks, Dan and welcome! You have so much more personal perspective than most of us here. Look forward to hearing from you. Thanks!

[PaIronDuke]

Who says Duke fans are rude, crude and socially unacceptable?

Thanks for the warm welcome...I will return as often as I can....thanks again

Thanks to Messers King and Hill-genuine old-timers-for some great memories. I have been a Duke football fan since 1940 (8 years old/lived in Henderson) and basketball fan since 1950 (Trinity '54). It's difficult/impossible for those not being around those years (which seem like day-before-yesterday to me) to realize how dominant Duke was in football until the early '60's. We beat Carolina TWICE in one year during the war years; the Tech, Tennessee, and Army games were often national events (not Carolina!); Sonny Jurgensen was a second-string quarterback at one point; bowl games were the rule, not exception; etc.

Unfortunately, the passage of time has dimmed Dick Groat's exploits, who, with Ace Parker, was in my opinion Duke's greatest athlete to date. He held both national scoring records during one year, and the excitement in the Indoor Stadium when he played-that Carolina game was delicious!-was as intense as you could find those days. The rivalry with State was white-hot, and when you went to Reynolds or Carmichael as an identifiable Duke student, you might indeed have to duke it out upon leaving. Although I admire and enjoy our teams in the K era, the quality of play in the Big Four at that time (early '50's) was exceptionally high.

Laudably, the one thread that consistently runs through all these years is the high quality of the athletes wearing "Duke" across their chests!

[ricks68]

Thanks to Messers King and Hill-genuine old-timers-for some great memories. I have been a Duke football fan since 1940 (8 years old/lived in Henderson) and basketball fan since 1950 (Trinity '54). It's difficult/impossible for those not being around those years (which seem like day-before-yesterday to me) to realize how dominant Duke was in football until the early '60's. We beat Carolina TWICE in one year during the war years; the Tech, Tennessee, and Army games were often national events (not Carolina!); Sonny Jurgensen was a second-string quarterback at one point; bowl games were the rule, not exception; etc.

Unfortunately, the passage of time has dimmed Dick Groat's exploits, who, with Ace Parker, was in my opinion Duke's greatest athlete to date. He held both national scoring records during one year, and the excitement in the Indoor Stadium when he played-that Carolina game was delicious!-was as intense as you could find those days. The rivalry with State was white-hot, and when you went to Reynolds or Carmichael as an identifiable Duke student, you might indeed have to duke it out upon leaving. Although I admire and enjoy our teams in the K era, the quality of play in the Big Four at that time (early '50's) was exceptionally high.

Laudably, the one thread that consistently runs through all these years is the high quality of the athletes wearing "Duke" across their chests!

Why do you think football went downhill after the early 60's? That's like almost 50 years ago. What do you mostly attribute the fall to? Size of the school? Money? Change in administration values? What? Basketball has had 3 great eras already. I will simply label them unofficially as "Cameron", "Bubas" and now "K", but you know the general years I mean. There were some "lean" years in between, but not like the long period that has followed the demise of great Duke football. And, considering the huge big-bucks programs that are out there today, could we ever realistically make it back to the top?

ricks

[Olympic Fan]

Why do you think football went downhill after the early 60's? That's like almost 50 years ago. What do you mostly attribute the fall to? Size of the school? Money? Change in administration values? What? Basketball has had 3 great eras already. I will simply label them unofficially as "Cameron", "Bubas" and now "K", but you know the general years I mean. There were some "lean" years in between, but not like the long period that has followed the demise of great Duke football. And, considering the huge big-bucks programs that are out there today, could we ever realistically make it back to the top?

ricks

Allow me to offer an option -- and as a student at Duke from the fall of 1967 to December of '73 (I was a little slow to graduate), I think I have a good perspective.

Duke football declined because President Douglas Knight and a strong faction of the faculty wanted to mold Duke on an Ivy League model -- and that meant de-emphazing athletics, especially football.

The key event was the replacement of Bill Murray after his retirement in 1966. Cameron (the athletic director) sent Wallace Wade to New York as an agent to try and lure Bud Wilkinson to Duke. The Hall of Fame coach had retired from Oklahoma, lost a Senate race there, and was working as a commentator for ABC-TV. His son had been an All-American at Duke under Murray, so he knew the school well.

But Knight squashed the contact --and prevented Cameron from pursing any of the dozens of prominent coaches that applied for the job. Knight hand-picked Tom Harp, who had a losing record at Cornell. Along with that misguided hire, Knight and his cronies drastically cut funding for athletics and enforced a draconian academic admission standard.

It wasn't just football --- Bubas quit in basketball during Knight's regime, in part fearing that he wouldn't be allowed to compete on an even playing field.

About that time (I think in 1969) a Faculty Committee recommended that Duke drop scholarship athletics and withdraw from the ACC. Their report was rejected by the Trustees, but it reflected the strong anti-athletic sentiment on campus at the time.

With Knight's outster (largely due to his mishandling on the Allen Building takeover), the pressure to quash big-time sports eased, but the funding continued to be difficult. Both Cameron and Wade were allowed to run down. Throughout most of the '70s, Duke had the worst athletic facilities in the ACC -- and (by far) the highest academic standards. I'm not a fan of Mike McGee, but he was in an impossible situation.

We were very fortunate that Tom Butters made a brilliant and uncoventional hire in 1980 and brought in Mike Krzyzewski (then stuck by him during some tough early years). His success turned the Duke basketball program into a money-making machine that has fueled the entire athletic department. There's a reason he's the highest paid employee at Duke -- and he's worth every penny. Without him and his program, there's no way Duke finishes 5th in the Director's Cup.

Football has had a chance since the mid-1980s, but a series of bad coaching hires have slowed the rebirth of the program, which has in turn stifled interest, which in turn makes it tougher to rebuild. In hindsight, Steve Sloan laid a nice foundation that Steve Spurrier (a better coach) was able to exploit. Butter's made a terrible hire when Spurrier left. Barry Wilson was not the man to continue Spurrier's success. But the worst move was when Joe Alleva fired Fred Goldsmith, who won his first year with players recruited by Spurrier, then had to rebuild from scratch after the Wilson disaster. He was just making progress when Alleva dumped the two-time national coach of the year for his buddy Carl Franks, who had never even been a coordinator. It was Franks who turned Duke football from a struggling program into the joke it became.

I'm pretty happy with what's been happening in football the last three years -- I think Coach Cutclife is the right man (I know people are frustrated, but he's brought us a long way back in a short time), facilities are better and the administration is finally behind the football program.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but you asked.

[PaIronDuke]

Why do you think football went downhill after the early 60's? That's like almost 50 years ago. What do you mostly attribute the fall to? Size of the school? Money? Change in administration values? What? Basketball has had 3 great eras already. I will simply label them unofficially as "Cameron", "Bubas" and now "K", but you know the general years I mean. There were some "lean" years in between, but not like the long period that has followed the demise of great Duke football. And, considering the huge big-bucks programs that are out there today, could we ever realistically make it back to the top?

ricks

Ricks;

If this qestion was addressed to me-and it's been rehashed ad nauseam- I'd speculate that it stemmed from the administration's ambivalence in the '60's and '70's about the place it wanted to occupy on the natonal sports scene, with some wistful glances towards an Ivy league direction and accompanying de-emphasis of major sports. By the time some common-sensical judgement was restored, we had lost momentum, support, and enthusiasm, and the long decline followed. Let's face it, had not the wisdom and foresight of Tom Butters intervened-and the institutional -changing era of Coach K occurred- we might have become more like Tulane or Vanderbilt than having the superb over-all athletic program we know have.

I believe Coach Cut is a god-send to our school, but frankly a return to a program like we had until the early '60's would require miracle-working efforts.

All that to the contrary, our #5 Director's Cup ranking should be a source of immense pride to us all.......

Note: I was writing this while the post above intervened, but it looks like we have some agreement..........

[headhill]

Dan has tons of stories to relay as well, many of them his own doing while at Duke.

I am his (much) younger brother so all I got to do was listen to him and Dad talk about their exploits at Duke.

But the Murray/Bubas days were great fun to watch and grow up around. And if you are any relation to 'Bob Verga' from Sea Girt, New Jersey', then you know how much Bob Verga lit up the scoreboard at then-Duke Indoor Stadium and filled it with tons of rabid fans. He might have averaged 30 ppg with the 3-point line in effect.

[headhill]

Allow me to offer an option -- and as a student at Duke from the fall of 1967 to December of '73 (I was a little slow to graduate), I think I have a good perspective.

Duke football declined because President Douglas Knight and a strong faction of the faculty wanted to mold Duke on an Ivy League model -- and that meant de-emphazing athletics, especially football.

The key event was the replacement of Bill Murray after his retirement in 1966. Cameron (the athletic director) sent Wallace Wade to New York as an agent to try and lure Bud Wilkinson to Duke. The Hall of Fame coach had retired from Oklahoma, lost a Senate race there, and was working as a commentator for ABC-TV. His son had been an All-American at Duke under Murray, so he knew the school well.

But Knight squashed the contact --and prevented Cameron from pursing any of the dozens of prominent coaches that applied for the job. Knight hand-picked Tom Harp, who had a losing record at Cornell. Along with that misguided hire, Knight and his cronies drastically cut funding for athletics and enforced a draconian academic admission standard.

It wasn't just football --- Bubas quit in basketball during Knight's regime, in part fearing that he wouldn't be allowed to compete on an even playing field.

About that time (I think in 1969) a Faculty Committee recommended that Duke drop scholarship athletics and withdraw from the ACC. Their report was rejected by the Trustees, but it reflected the strong anti-athletic sentiment on campus at the time.

With Knight's outster (largely due to his mishandling on the Allen Building takeover), the pressure to quash big-time sports eased, but the funding continued to be difficult. Both Cameron and Wade were allowed to run down. Throughout most of the '70s, Duke had the worst athletic facilities in the ACC -- and (by far) the highest academic standards. I'm not a fan of Mike McGee, but he was in an impossible situation.

We were very fortunate that Tom Butters made a brilliant and uncoventional hire in 1980 and brought in Mike Krzyzewski (then stuck by him during some tough early years). His success turned the Duke basketball program into a money-making machine that has fueled the entire athletic department. There's a reason he's the highest paid employee at Duke -- and he's worth every penny. Without him and his program, there's no way Duke finishes 5th in the Director's Cup.

Football has had a chance since the mid-1980s, but a series of bad coaching hires have slowed the rebirth of the program, which has in turn stifled interest, which in turn makes it tougher to rebuild. In hindsight, Steve Sloan laid a nice foundation that Steve Spurrier (a better coach) was able to exploit. Butter's made a terrible hire when Spurrier left. Barry Wilson was not the man to continue Spurrier's success. But the worst move was when Joe Alleva fired Fred Goldsmith, who won his first year with players recruited by Spurrier, then had to rebuild from scratch after the Wilson disaster. He was just making progress when Alleva dumped the two-time national coach of the year for his buddy Carl Franks, who had never even been a coordinator. It was Franks who turned Duke football from a struggling program into the joke it became.

I'm pretty happy with what's been happening in football the last three years -- I think Coach Cutclife is the right man (I know people are frustrated, but he's brought us a long way back in a short time), facilities are better and the administration is finally behind the football program.

Sorry for the long-winded explanation, but you asked.

The big word for the decline of Duke Football in the late 60's/early '70's was 'de-emphasis'...which is really odd in a year, 2011 when another academic institution, Stanford, is preseason #1 in most BCS polls and they are coming to Duke, a year after Alabama came last year.

The really weird thing is that the first president of Duke, Preston Few, recognized the allure of having a great football program at Duke and what it would mean for increased admissions and fund-raising and endowments, etc way back in 1930 when he hired Wallace Wade from Alabama where he only had won 3 Rose Bowls and 3 national titles in the '20's.

It. Worked. The football program help put Duke on the national map in the 1930's which was pretty important for a university that was less than 10 years old at the time.

If Stanford can do it, why can't Coach Cut and Duke? heck, if Wake Forest, Temple, Rutgers, Rice and Vanderbilt can have successful and respectable football programs again after decades of desultory seasons along with Duke, why can't Duke do the same?

[Olympic Fan]

If Stanford can do it, why can't Coach Cut and Duke? heck, if Wake Forest, Temple, Rutgers, Rice and Vanderbilt can have successful and respectable football programs again after decades of desultory seasons along with Duke, why can't Duke do the same?

Duke can ... and will.

But you don't turn a program that's had "decades of desultory seasons" around overnight.

I can't go into details of all those programs you mentioned, but I do have the records for Wake Forest -- before and after Jim Grobe's arrival. The Deacs were never as bad under Jim Calwell as the Duke program was before Cut's arrival. Heck, Wake won seven games and played in bowl in 1999 (Caldwell's next to last year).

Grobe arrived in 2001 an enjoyed modest success -- but he had five straight losing seasons in the ACC before he broke through in 2006 with an ACC championship team. His Deacs won five ACC games the next season, then have dropped back below .500.

I know it's tough to plead for patience after all these years, but it takes time. Heck, it took Coach K four years to build a winner and six seasons to put together a championship team and he's the greatest basketball coach in modern NCAA history.

The progress is there -- Duke is 100 percent better than in the Franks/Roof era. A little bit better and we'll be back in the bowl picture.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Duke can ... and will.

But you don't turn a program that's had "decades of desultory seasons" around overnight.

I can't go into details of all those programs you mentioned, but I do have the records for Wake Forest -- before and after Jim Grobe's arrival. The Deacs were never as bad under Jim Calwell as the Duke program was before Cut's arrival. Heck, Wake won seven games and played in bowl in 1999 (Caldwell's next to last year).

Grobe arrived in 2001 an enjoyed modest success -- but he had five straight losing seasons in the ACC before he broke through in 2006 with an ACC championship team. His Deacs won five ACC games the next season, then have dropped back below .500.

I know it's tough to plead for patience after all these years, but it takes time. Heck, it took Coach K four years to build a winner and six seasons to put together a championship team and he's the greatest basketball coach in modern NCAA history.

The progress is there -- Duke is 100 percent better than in the Franks/Roof era. A little bit better and we'll be back in the bowl picture.

It takes not only patience, it takes support. In addition to the money required to create and support a successful program, the support of people is a big component.... showing up whenever there's anything about football going on, especially showing up for the games. We all are aware of the home court advantage we have created in basketball. Now we're re-building that in football.

Yes, this may be a shameless pitch for ticket purchases, but we've got tickets to sell! With the withdrawal of the Alabama fans, season tickets are now available! Can't attend all the games? Consider getting a group together for one game and purchasing your tickets together for as little as $15 each. Want a tailgate and ticket? That combination is also available for groups. http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&KEY=&ATCLID=285379

[Reilly]

... But the worst move was when Joe Alleva fired Fred Goldsmith, who won his first year with players recruited by Spurrier, then had to rebuild from scratch after the Wilson disaster. He was just making progress when Alleva dumped the two-time national coach of the year for his buddy Carl Franks, who had never even been a coordinator. It was Franks who turned Duke football from a struggling program into the joke it became. ....

OlyFan, I appreciate your long recap, and agree with all you wrote in the long post except this one nugget (or actually, there's only half a nugget I take exception to). Was hiring Carl Franks an unmitigated disaster? Yes. A huge mistake? Yes. However, I do not believe retaining Goldsmith was the answer, either. In short, firing Goldsmith was the *right* thing to do, not the wrong thing to do .... and the mistake was made in who was hired to replace him. By 1998, a malaise had set in with Duke Football, there had been the Heather Sue Mercer debacle, and that particular season (98) of mid-season promise fizzled down the stretch... and it didn't look to me like Fred was the answer and would carry us over the hump. If he had been retained, maybe we get some 3-4 win seasons instead of 0-1 win seasons over the coming years -- better, but not what we wanted, and not the answer. Yep, he was a 2-time national coach of the year, and a success at the h.s. in the mountains post-Duke, but he didn't have the greatest record at L-R (not that I know the particulars of his situation there). Given paltry admin support, and Fred's track record, I don't see the next 5-7 years post-98 being all that great if Fred had been retained. What was needed then is what we have now: great coach and admin support. Fred wasn't a great coach and, at any rate, there wasn't the support anyway.

[Reilly]

... But you don't turn a program that's had "decades of desultory seasons" around overnight.

I can't go into details of all those programs you mentioned, but I do have the records for Wake Forest -- before and after Jim Grobe's arrival. The Deacs were never as bad under Jim Calwell as the Duke program was before Cut's arrival. Heck, Wake won seven games and played in bowl in 1999 (Caldwell's next to last year).....

This gives a flavor of how down other programs were, relative to Duke. Even the supposed worst of all time Northwestern was not as down as Duke ....

NU 1989-1991: 5-28 (15%)
NU 1992-1994: 9-23 (28%) [Barnett's first three years]
NU 1995-1997: 24-12 (67%)

WFU 1998-2000: 12-22 (35%) [Caldwell's last three years]
WFU 2001-2003: 18-18 (50%)
WFU 2004-2006: 19-17 (53%)

Stan 2004-2006: 10-24 (29%)
Stan 2007-2009: 17-20 (46%) [Harbaugh's first three years]
Stan 2010-2012:

Duke 2005-2007: 2-33 (5%) [Three years prior to Cut]
Duke 2008-2010: 12-24 (33%)
Duke 2011-2013:

In short, tremendous turnaround artist Gary Barnett took a 15% winner and turned it into a 28% winner in 3 years .... Grobe took a 35% winner and turned it into a 50% winner in 3 years ... Cut took a 5% winner (NOT a misprint) and has brought us to 33% over 3 years ...

Winning percentage of ACC schools, 2008-2010

76: VT
65: GT, FS
62: NC
60: BC
59: UM
55: CU
53: ST
50: MD
43: WF
33: Duke (2008-2010) -- we are now part of the conference, on the graph/bell curve
33: VA
05: Duke (2005-2007) -- look at what an outlier we were

Percentage of competitive games, 2008-2010 [(wins + 8pt or less losses)/total games]

93: VT
88: CU
87: NC
83: GT
80: FS
78: BC
77: UM
76: ST
70: WF
66: MD
58: Duke (2008-2010) - we are now on the graph/part of the bell curve
53: VA
25: Duke (2005-2007) - look at what an outlier we were

[Olympic Fan]

OlyFan, I appreciate your long recap, and agree with all you wrote in the long post except this one nugget (or actually, there's only half a nugget I take exception to). Was hiring Carl Franks an unmitigated disaster? Yes. A huge mistake? Yes. However, I do not believe retaining Goldsmith was the answer, either. In short, firing Goldsmith was the *right* thing to do, not the wrong thing to do .... and the mistake was made in who was hired to replace him. By 1998, a malaise had set in with Duke Football, there had been the Heather Sue Mercer debacle, and that particular season (98) of mid-season promise fizzled down the stretch... and it didn't look to me like Fred was the answer and would carry us over the hump. If he had been retained, maybe we get some 3-4 win seasons instead of 0-1 win seasons over the coming years -- better, but not what we wanted, and not the answer. Yep, he was a 2-time national coach of the year, and a success at the h.s. in the mountains post-Duke, but he didn't have the greatest record at L-R (not that I know the particulars of his situation there). Given paltry admin support, and Fred's track record, I don't see the next 5-7 years post-98 being all that great if Fred had been retained. What was needed then is what we have now: great coach and admin support. Fred wasn't a great coach and, at any rate, there wasn't the support anyway.

I undertand your point of view, but allow me a short rebuttal.

As I said, Goldsmith won big in his first season -- playing with a veteran team that was largly recruited by Spurrier. He was 8-4, but easily could have won 10 games and earned a trip to the Cotton Bowl (the last year the Cotton was a major bowl).

In his second season, he still had a strong senior class, but almost NOTHING in the junior and sophomore classes. What I remember was a fairly strong start (aside from a blowout in the opener against a great FSU team). But a trip to Maryland in week four proved disastrous ... not only did Duke lose, but a ton of players were hurt, including almost the entire defensive line.

Duke won just one more game and finished 3-8. I should point our that 3-8 was almost exactly what Barry Wilson averaged in his four seasons.

1996 was worse -- playing with almost all sophomores and freshmen, Goldsmith finished 0-11. It was only a little better in 1997 -- 2-9, but with a bunch of close losses.

By 1998, Goldsmith's first recruits were seniors and he was starting to get Duke back. After beating Clemson on Oct. 24, Duke was 4-4 and even attracting bowl scouts (well, it was the Cherry Bowl, but what the hey!). The next week was the backbreaker. Duke traveled to Vanderbilt, but everything seemed to go wrong. Middle LB Todd DeLamielleure was sidelined with a stomach ailment. Deep threat Richmond Flowers sprained his ankle in practice. There were several other injuries -- still Scottie Montgomery, having one of the great days in Duke receiving history, almost pulled it out. With the game tied in the final seconds, he had a game-winning TD pass flick off his fingers. Duke ended up losing in double OT.

Granted, the team collapsed after that losing badly at home to a weak Maryland team and to a decent UNC team. The 4-7 finish was disappointing.

But it was progress ... and best all, Goldsmith would have had the core of his team back for 1999. Instead, Alleva fired him and brought in his (unqualified) buddy, Carl Franks. A number of players transferred in disgust, including Flowers and DeLamielleure (whose father was fired from the coaching staff).

It was heartbreaking to watch what Franks did to that '99 team. They won three games -- beating two bowl teams and knocking Maryland out of a bowl -- but they could have and should have (and with Goldsmith WOULD have) won six or seven.

I'm not sure Goldsmith would have ever led Duke to greatness, but with him at the helm, Duke would have avoided the nightmare that followed. The guy was a two-time national coach of the year, but at Rice and Duke.

Firing Goldsmith when he did was a mistake ... Alleva should have waited one more year. If he had missed on a bowl in '99, then would have been ther time to fire himk. Heck, it's not like somebody was going to jump in and beat Duke to Carl Franks.

Agree, the bigger mistake was hiring Franks. Yeah, if you hire Jim Grobe or Bob Stoops or somebody like that, okay.

Part of the problem references what Devil in a Blue Dress said -- it comes down to support. Goldsmith's biggest problem was lack of facilities (the Yoh Center was on the drawing board, but still far, far away) and the low salaries for assistant coaches (he lost some very talented guys because of that). He also coached in an era when Duke sold home games to make money.

Under those circumstances, you might be right that he only averages 3-4 wins a season (although I would argue that in that average would be a 6-7 win bump every four years). I'd like to have seen him get the support that Coach Cut has gotten.

PS I wish you had not brought up Heather Sue Mercer ... what a &*^$%&. There is a lot Fred has to be sorry about, but in that one, he got screwed.

[Reilly]

The stuff one finds on the internet ... Duke placekicker, cookie maker, poker player ...

Heather Sue update:

http://thedemocraticdaily.com/2010/10/22/10689/