Kyrie Irving- Greatest Ever?

[GreatestCoachEver!]

What are the chances that by the end of his NBA career, Irving is considered the best basketball player to come out of Duke ever?

[Azdukefan]

What are the chances that by the end of his NBA career, Irving is considered the best basketball player to come out of Duke ever?

Slim to none. Is he really better than Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, JJ Redick, Shane Battier, ..........? I'm not even sure this thread will have any life.

[MChambers]

Slim to none. Is he really better than Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, JJ Redick, Shane Battier, ..........? I'm not even sure this thread will have any life.

There's a chance. Not many players have a chance to have a better NBA career than Grant Hill, so that's high praise. But it's not likely. Let's check back in 2021 or so.

[elvis14]

Slim to none. Is he really better than Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, JJ Redick, Shane Battier, ..........? I'm not even sure this thread will have any life.

I'm assuming the OP meant the greatest NBA player not the greatest player while at Duke. Of course that list you gave and many others had better college careers than Kyrie's 11 game run.

[anon]

Slim to none. Is he really better than Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, JJ Redick, Shane Battier, ..........? I'm not even sure this thread will have any life.

Well, the question isn't really one that anyone can definitively answer, but to be fair to the OP, he qualified it with, "by the end of his NBA career." (I don't know enough about the NBA to shed any light upon it.)

[Billy Dat]

I think the intent of the question is whether or not he can have the best NBA career of a Duke player, a big difference from the best player from Duke which could be taken to include the player's Duke career.

I heard Bill Simmons and Chad Ford talking about Kyrie, and they were discussing how he has the misfortune of coming into the league during a true golden age of young point guards. He'll be competing for All NBA and All Star games with Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Derrick Rose, Rajon Rondo, Russell Westbrook and John Wall not to mention the next cut of young guns such as Jrue Holliday, Brandon Jennings, et al. It's a daunting task. I know that doesn't address the original question, and what he does on the court will be measured objectively, but he will spend his career being compared to the names that I mentioned. If he can push his way into the top 2-3 of that elite group in the next 5 years, he'll have a chance to be the best.

Right now, I think Grant has the trophy:
-Rookie of the Year
-1 first team all NBA and 4 second team all NBA
-7 All Star Appearances
-$134MM career earnings!!!!!

Elton's probably next
-Rookie of the year
-2 All Star appearances
-1 all nba 2nd team
-$126MM career earnings!!!!

But you could make an argument for Jeff Mullins as next with his 3 All Star appearances and NBA title. But, he never made an All NBA Team.

[Huh?]

What are the chances that by the end of his NBA career, Irving is considered the best basketball player to come out of Duke ever?

He certainly has a chance to be. I think Grant Hill is his biggest challenge, he made like 7 or 8 all star games didn't he? PG is a tough position with a lot of talent in the NBA, he'll probably have a tough go at to get started.

[rasputin]

Isn't there a rule that any thread about Kyrie has to have the word "Vigil" in its title?;)

[ikiru36]

Slim to none. Is he really better than Christian Laettner, Grant Hill, JJ Redick, Shane Battier, ..........? I'm not even sure this thread will have any life.

I think that the original poster was referring to Kyrie's career as a whole, including the NBA.

It is so too early to hazard a reasonable guess as to how good a career Kyrie will have. In terms of potential at the time he was drafted, in the Coach K era he might only be compared with Danny Ferry, Christian Laettner, Bobby Hurley, Grant Hill, Elton Brand and Jason Williams. Sadly, most of these guys careers were derailed rather quickly due to severe injury (Hurley and Williams), or chronic injury when entering what should have been the prime of their careers (Laettner, Hill, to a lesser extent Brand). Ferry was good but never great after pulling a Rubio and playing in Europe to avoid playing for the Clippers.

Certainly this is it's own topic for debate, but to me the player with the highest ceiling and most success was clearly Grant Hill. Per wikipedia, "After the first six seasons of his career, before his ankle injury, Hill had a total of 9,393 points, 3,417 rebounds and 2,720 assists. Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, and LeBron James are the only three players in league history to eclipse these numbers after their first six seasons."

Basically, to supplant Grant's legacy, Kyrie (or Nolan or Kyle or whomever) would need to become NBA 1st team caliber for multiple seasons and be in the running for NBA MVP at least once (Grant Hill 1999-2000). I wouldn't put this beyond Kyrie but given the current landscape he'd be needing to at least supplant Chris Paul, John Wall, Deron Williams, Russell Westbrook, Rajon Rondo...etc. to be the top PG in the league.

It is not a low bar which Grant has set (albeit for too brief a time, due to injury). Of course, hard to beat Grant for longevity either!

Anyways, wishing Kyrie the best and greatest success possible. He's almost a mix of Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams in terms of potential upon entering the league, with excellent quickness and pure point guard instincts (Hurley) combined with good size and ability to create his own offense (Williams). But we never got to see enough of Kyrie (or, sadly, Hurley or Williams) to guess at where all that potential might lead.

Go Kyrie!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Grant!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Gewebe14]

Let's put it this way -- Duke has never had a player go on to be the #1 overall pick in an NBA draft, right?

Kyrie has a high probability of being the first. Obviously, that doesn't guarantee that he will be as good as some other guys, but it's not a bad starting point.

I think the question is fair, but that because of how good Grant Hill was (is), it will be difficult for him to be the best basketball player to come from Duke.

Definitely possible at this point in time though.

[freshmanjs]

Let's put it this way -- Duke has never had a player go on to be the #1 overall pick in an NBA draft, right?



have we forgotten elton brand already?

[Gewebe14]

oops yeah, that was before i followed basketball

Anyone else?

[taiw93]

I think he certainly has a good chance to be. If he goes #1 to Cleveland, he will have an opportunity to be the face of that franchise. And, if he reaches his full potential (I think, if everything goes right, he has a chance to be Chris Paul-esque), I definitely think he can be a perennial All Star, and could very well be the right man to lead the Cavs' rebuilding effort. The bottom line, though, is that he will go as far as the team does, and vice versa.

[sagegrouse]

I am having trouble getting motivated to deal with the OP's question. Maybe it's too hypothetical. Kinda on the same level as the answer, "Josh Pastner," to the question of who would (fingers crossed) succeed K as the winningest college basketball coach. That thread was at the time when Pastner, having been appointed Memphis coach, had yet to have his team play a single NCAA game.

sagegrouse

[nmduke2001]

Let's put it this way -- Duke has never had a player go on to be the #1 overall pick in an NBA draft, right?


Art Heyman and Elton Brand were both number one picks.

I think Kyrie's ceiling is Isiah Thomas and floor is TJ Ford.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Let's put it this way -- Duke has never had a player go on to be the #1 overall pick in an NBA draft, right?

How about Art Heyman?

[Reilly]

Good site to help the discussion. Fun to click on the column headings to arrange the Duke players in order of what they've done in the NBA:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/friv/colleges.cgi?college=duke

[Billy Dat]

Many of Duke's high picks have had bad injury problems during their primes which seriously impacted their careers:

-Grant - would have been a Hall of Famer, no doubt about it.
-Elton Brand, lost a decent chunk of his prime with his injuries from 2007-2010
-Jason Williams -#2 pick - we all know that story
-Mike Dunleavy - #3 pick - lost many games to injuries in 2006 and 2009
-Laettner - lost many games to injury in 96 and 99

[Gthoma2a]

Brand and Boozer. I don't know how Kyrie will do. I like Kyrie, but I tend to question how good he is based off of the limited exposure I have to him, even after playing a few games for us. I was sold that he would be amazing when I was watching HS All-American games, though, but I haven't seen how he would do over the course of a grueling season. I think Boozer is arguably the best player out of Duke. Injuries are mounting, but he has been very good.

[cato]

He's almost a mix of Bobby Hurley and Jason Williams in terms of potential upon entering the league

And those two are perfect examples of questions like this are so hard to answer. I just hope Kyrie gets to play a full career in the NBA, unlike his time at Duke.

[ikiru36]

And those two are perfect examples of questions like this are so hard to answer. I just hope Kyrie gets to play a full career in the NBA, unlike his time at Duke.

Amen to that! And may Nolan and Kyle have long, productive careers as well.

Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[CDu]

Brand and Boozer. I don't know how Kyrie will do. I like Kyrie, but I tend to question how good he is based off of the limited exposure I have to him, even after playing a few games for us. I was sold that he would be amazing when I was watching HS All-American games, though, but I haven't seen how he would do over the course of a grueling season. I think Boozer is arguably the best player out of Duke. Injuries are mounting, but he has been very good.

I'd say Boozer is third on the list (if not lower). Grant Hill hasn't been relevant in nearly a decade, but before his injuries he was one of the best 5-10 players in the NBA for 5-6 years. I'd put Brand ahead of Boozer as well based on Brand's production early in his career. Brand suffered a similar fate to Hill in that he had serious injuries right as he was becoming a star. Boozer's aggregate performance could pass Brand though, as Brand hasn't been the same since the injuries. But (as you note) Boozer has had his share of injuries too.

As for the original question, I think it's impossible to say with any accuracy. The kid has played all of 11 games above the high school level, and only 3 since returning from a very serious injury. It's just too hard to tell if he'll reach the level of multiple All-NBA teams (like Hill did).

[BobbyFan]

It will be a challenge for Kyrie to be among the top 5 PGs over the next several years, considering that Paul, Williams, Rose, Westbrook and Rondo are all 26 or younger.

[ikiru36]

It will be a challenge for Kyrie to be among the top 5 PGs over the next several years, considering that Paul, Williams, Rose, Westbrook and Rondo are all 26 or younger.

Thanks BobbyFan, I was trying to make this same point earlier and forgot to include Derrick Rose! Makes the Hill (pun initially unintended) he's climbing even higher.

Go Kyrie!!!!!!!!!! Go Duke!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Starter]

I think Kyrie's going to be a really good player. But I also think people forget just how good Grant Hill was before all the injuries. He was hands-down a top 5 player in the NBA during his years with Detroit. I'm not old enough to have extensively watched him at Duke (I'm 31), but I remember his early NBA career vividly, and he was The Man back then. I'd say he was a very slight step behind Jordan and Shaquille, and probably on par with Iverson, in terms of endorsements and visibility. I often think about what could have been if he had stayed healthy with McGrady in Orlando. He might have been one of the most decorated players of all time.

Kyrie has a long way to go in that regard. It's a different time now, easier to go viral with the internet and whatnot, but if he's a 7-time All-Star at the end of his career, that'll be a tremendous achievement.

[Class of '94]

I think Kyrie's going to be a really good player. But I also think people forget just how good Grant Hill was before all the injuries. He was hands-down a top 5 player in the NBA during his years with Detroit. I'm not old enough to have extensively watched him at Duke (I'm 31), but I remember his early NBA career vividly, and he was The Man back then. I'd say he was a very slight step behind Jordan and Shaquille, and probably on par with Iverson, in terms of endorsements and visibility. I often think about what could have been if he had stayed healthy with McGrady in Orlando. He might have been one of the most decorated players of all time.

Kyrie has a long way to go in that regard. It's a different time now, easier to go viral with the internet and whatnot, but if he's a 7-time All-Star at the end of his career, that'll be a tremendous achievement.

I attended Duke during the same time period that Grant did and had the luxury of watching him play at Duke; and have continued to follow Grant's career in the NBA since he graduated. As I mentioned in other threads, Grant's athletic ability and versatility on the college level was amazing as evidenced by some of his highlight reel dunks that have been captured on Duke Blue Planet. Prior to the injuries, Grant was arguably considered the most athletic player (even with guys like Kobe and Vince Carter around) and the best perimeter player in the NBA by many when Jordan retired from the Bulls. I, too, wonder what if Grant didn't have the misdiagnosis on his ankle injuries, how good Grant might have been, especially when you can still see how talented and athletic he is at age 38. If Grant didn't have the ankle injury, there's no way Kyrie could catch him in terms of being the best NBA player from Duke; but because of Grant's injuries, Kyrie has a small chance but I still doubt he overtakes him.

[yancem]

I think Kyrie's going to be a really good player. But I also think people forget just how good Grant Hill was before all the injuries. He was hands-down a top 5 player in the NBA during his years with Detroit. I'm not old enough to have extensively watched him at Duke (I'm 31), but I remember his early NBA career vividly, and he was The Man back then. I'd say he was a very slight step behind Jordan and Shaquille, and probably on par with Iverson, in terms of endorsements and visibility. I often think about what could have been if he had stayed healthy with McGrady in Orlando. He might have been one of the most decorated players of all time.

Kyrie has a long way to go in that regard. It's a different time now, easier to go viral with the internet and whatnot, but if he's a 7-time All-Star at the end of his career, that'll be a tremendous achievement.

This is where I think that Irving has the most potential of a Duke player entering the draft since Hill. He has such a great personality and such a zest for the game that it is almost contagious. I think that he has the potential to become one of the most marketable players in the league. Of course he is going to have to play well too but he is pretty much the perfect pitch man.

[dukejim1]

We should hope that kyrie can follow the development path of Luoll who many believe is on the verge of becoming a consistent all star

[uh_no]

Last year at this time we were talking about the upcoming duke season being among the greatest ever....and look where that got us....lets wait til he establishes himself in the NBA before we hail him as the greatest dukie ever.....lest the basketball gods smite us with something like a lost phalange, or a concussed navel.

[_Gary]

In terms of what we saw in a regrettably shortened season for Kyrie at Duke, I think he has a very good chance of being the best NBA Dukie of all time. He has all the quickness an elite PG needs. He's got the ability to finish. He showed a very nice outside stroke. His defense, before his injury, was solid with his quick feet and hands. I just think Kyrie is as high a quality of Dukie as we've put out in some time. If I were a betting man he'd get my vote as having the best chance to supplant Grant Hill as the top NBA Dukie of all time.

Gary

[OldPhiKap]

I attended Duke during the same time period that Grant did and had the luxury of watching him play at Duke; and have continued to follow Grant's career in the NBA since he graduated. As I mentioned in other threads, Grant's athletic ability and versatility on the college level was amazing as evidenced by some of his highlight reel dunks that have been captured on Duke Blue Planet. Prior to the injuries, Grant was arguably considered the most athletic player (even with guys like Kobe and Vince Carter around) and the best perimeter player in the NBA by many when Jordan retired from the Bulls. I, too, wonder what if Grant didn't have the misdiagnosis on his ankle injuries, how good Grant might have been, especially when you can still see how talented and athletic he is at age 38. If Grant didn't have the ankle injury, there's no way Kyrie could catch him in terms of being the best NBA player from Duke; but because of Grant's injuries, Kyrie has a small chance but I still doubt he overtakes him.

I haven't followed the whole thread, but would add that Johnny Dawkins' career was cut short by injury too. Oh, what could have been. Ditto JWill. And you set out Grant's case very well also.

Kyrie has some things about him that I am not sure I have seen in an incoming freshman. The sky is the limit. But the limit is also the body's ability to keep it together.

Stay healthy, and do well.

[brevity]

I'm not even sure this thread will have any life.

No, this is exactly the kind of DBR thread that has a life. Everyone who sees the topic will groan and click it. Then, of those who choose to respond, some will comment on how ridiculous this question is right now, while others will try to legitimize it by pulling it in the direction of a previous (and better) discussion from only a few weeks ago.

And since I'm guilty of adding to the thread now, I may as well comment.

Because of his injury-shortened college career, Kyrie Irving reminds me a little of that barely-seen football player in the 1980s movie Summer School: the one least exposed to the teacher's influence, and yet the only one who ends up acing the placement test. College basketball was lucky to have him around, even if he didn't really need college basketball.

If he gets drafted by Cleveland at #1, it's a great honor for him and for Duke. And while I personally think that it is silly to speculate on his career much further, I do acknowledge that there is a little room for others to speculate about what the Cavaliers can do in the next few seasons to build a team around him.

[SupaDave]

Until he gets a ring - I don't want to hear it.

And right now there are many other Devils in a much better position to achieve championship status. Right now we should pray he's as good and consistent as Battier.

And weren't we just having this convo about Gerald a little while ago?

Pitch man? He'll probably see less endorsements than John Wall who made himself a household name in his one year. Kyrie? Notsomuch. He'll get some #1 pick love and of course locally in Cleveland and magazine ads but I've got a feeling that Mr. Smith will see quite a bit more marketing dollars right out the box. Kyrie is gonna have to do Blake Griffin good to get more exposure. Most folks haven't seen enough of him. There are LOTS and LOTS of good guys in the NBA (can you say Jason Terry?) - he's gonna have to prove it.

[PADukeMom]

Isn't there a rule that any thread about Kyrie has to have the word "Vigil" in its title?;)

You made my Thursday morning!

IMHO it is a bit too early to bestow "best ever" title on Kyrie. He hasn't played a single NBA game. Factor in to the equasion that he is in all probability going to Cleveland. If LeBron couldn't win in Cleveland...can Kyrie?
personally I think Kyrie is going to go second in the draft. I think Cleveland is going to take Derrick Williams as the #1 pick & they will take Brandon Knight at #4. This is my personal opinion.

[Billy Dat]

Because of his injury-shortened college career, Kyrie Irving reminds me a little of that barely-seen football player in the 1980s movie Summer School: the one least exposed to the teacher's influence, and yet the only one who ends up acing the placement test.

This needs its own award as an extremely obscure reference that I had to dig way back to remember, but as I thought back, I remember what you are referring to. Classic bad 80s movie...Mark Harmon, a thin and hot Kirstie Alley, a very young Courtney Thorne Smith, sterotypical class of missfits - the stoner gory filmakers, the bombshell foreign exchange student, the pregnant teen, the fiesty latina..it was basically "Stand and Deliver" for losers. Great call.

[Mcluhan]

Case closed, folks:

"After the first six seasons of his career, before his ankle injury, Hill had a total of 9,393 points, 3,417 rebounds and 2,720 assists. Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, and LeBron James are the only three players in league history to eclipse these numbers after their first six seasons. "

Unless we already decided that Austin Rivers is the best Duke player ever. ;)

[GreatestCoachEver!]

But don't you have to factor in the injuries to assess the full body of work? Grant Hill had an amazing first several seasons and has had a remarkable resurgence recently but all those years of injury clearly take away from his career. Just in the same way that the injuries detract from Kyrie's college career, or Hurely or JWill's or Brand's NBA careers.

For that reason, I think Kyrie does have a decent shot of going down in history as the greatest NBA player to come from Duke. He has the talent and drive and just needs to stay healthy to do great stuff.


Now, we just need likely second rounder, Kyle Singler, to surprise people the way second rounder Boozer has surprised people. . .

[yancem]

Pitch man? He'll probably see less endorsements than John Wall who made himself a household name in his one year. Kyrie? Notsomuch. He'll get some #1 pick love and of course locally in Cleveland and magazine ads but I've got a feeling that Mr. Smith will see quite a bit more marketing dollars right out the box. Kyrie is gonna have to do Blake Griffin good to get more exposure. Most folks haven't seen enough of him. There are LOTS and LOTS of good guys in the NBA (can you say Jason Terry?) - he's gonna have to prove it.

Wall got a lot of exposure and has the talent to be great but he seems more reserved and laid back. I'm not sure that his personality will land him that many major tv ads. Irving on the other hand did get quite a bit of exposure because of his injury. If his game translates well to the nba game, I think his personality could garner him the tv ads. Like I said in my original post he has to prove him self on the court but the big time tv endorsement deals require more than just talent. There are many perennial all stars that don't get the national tv commercials. Only a few get the Gatorade, McDonald's, Coke type commercials. The rest get relegated to magazines and local tv. I think that if Irving becomes an all star he can be one of those guys.

[COYS]

Case closed, folks:

"After the first six seasons of his career, before his ankle injury, Hill had a total of 9,393 points, 3,417 rebounds and 2,720 assists. Oscar Robertson, Larry Bird, and LeBron James are the only three players in league history to eclipse these numbers after their first six seasons. "

Unless we already decided that Austin Rivers is the best Duke player ever. ;)

+1 here. I think people forget just how amazing Grant was before the injuries started to mount. Six years is not an inconsequential time period. I also think that if you take him healthy he's on virtually any 10 Best NBA player in the 90's list.

Also, Brand gets a bad rap for being on the Clippers. He would've been a perennial all star if he played on a contender. He was in the top 21 in the player efficiency ratings from 2002-2007 with the 2002 season being his lowest at 21. This included two seasons where he peaked at number 6 just a whisker behind guys with names like Wade, James, and Garnett (when he was still in his prime) and even ahead of a guy named Bryant. His assist numbers early in his career are underrated and he was always an excellent defender despite his unimpressive height for an NBA PF. He was a model of consistency from his rookie year through 2007. Boozer has been very good, but if defense is taken into consideration, I don't see how Brand isn't the current number 2 behind Grant in terms of NBA players from the K era. Laettner was also far better pre-injury than anyone gives him credit for but injury struck him earlier and his production wasn't Hall of Fame worthy prior to the injury as Grants was.

[Starter]

+1 here. I think people forget just how amazing Grant was before the injuries started to mount. Six years is not an inconsequential time period. I also think that if you take him healthy he's on virtually any 10 Best NBA player in the 90's list.

Also, Brand gets a bad rap for being on the Clippers. He would've been a perennial all star if he played on a contender. He was in the top 21 in the player efficiency ratings from 2002-2007 with the 2002 season being his lowest at 21. This included two seasons where he peaked at number 6 just a whisker behind guys with names like Wade, James, and Garnett (when he was still in his prime) and even ahead of a guy named Bryant. His assist numbers early in his career are underrated and he was always an excellent defender despite his unimpressive height for an NBA PF. He was a model of consistency from his rookie year through 2007. Boozer has been very good, but if defense is taken into consideration, I don't see how Brand isn't the current number 2 behind Grant in terms of NBA players from the K era. Laettner was also far better pre-injury than anyone gives him credit for but injury struck him earlier and his production wasn't Hall of Fame worthy prior to the injury as Grants was.

I agree with this. Anyone who watched the Suns-Clippers playoff series back in 2006 knows how incredibly dominant an offensive player Elton was at his peak. (And if you need a refresher, Jack McCallum's "Seven Seconds or Less" pretty accurately details it. Even if you don't, it's an excellent book that's worth a read for any basketball fan.) He averaged an insane 25 points, 10 rebounds and 4 assists in his 12 playoff games that year. Even this past year, with injuries adding up, Elton was a very good player on a team whose system he was supposedly unable to fit into.

[Starter]

Personally, by the way, I think Kyrie will do pretty well in endorsements right off the bat. He seems a natural for Nike, especially since he's riding with LeBron. I actually think he's probably just as well-known as Wall was last year given that he played for Duke, the saga with his toe, etc., and being the No. 1 pick has a certain Madison Ave. cache all its own. Coming to save the Cavs or whatever is an angle. He's young, cool, and a respectable and nonthreatening young dude. And -- don't laugh -- he's got a cool name. I actually think it helps.

[Rich]

And -- don't laugh -- he's got a cool name. I actually think it helps.

Irving is a totally cool name. It was my grandfather's. ;)

[Starter]

Irving is a totally cool name. It was my grandfather's. ;)

It was my uncle's name! (I meant Kyrie, but Uncle Irving was totally awesome too. He drove a motorcycle!)

[cameroncrazy3104]

Since NBA careers are defined by championships, I would say that, assuming he goes to the cavs, that Cleveland would have to pick up some more pieces before I make them a title contender.