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gw67
07-08-2007, 08:15 AM
Next year appears to be a down year for the ACC as far as top teams are concerned but there are several good players remaining and a few good players entering the league. My take on the top players, by position, in the upcoming season is as follows:

Point Guard – Singletary (UVa), Lawson (UNC), Paulus (Duke), Rice (BC), Vasquez (Md), Douglas (FS), Smith (WF)

PG Summary – Singletary and Rice are gunners and should challenge Hansbrough for league scoring honors. Lawson and Paulus will likely get some All ACC consideration. This is a very strong position for some teams who have depth at PG – UNC, Duke, Md and Wake. On the other hand, NC State and Georgia Tech need to find PGs among their returnees/frosh.

Off Guard/Wing – Clinch (GT), Ellington (UNC), Nelson (Duke), Scheyer (Duke), Henderson (Duke), Grant (NCS), Rich (FS), Washington (VT), McClinton (Miami)

OG/W Summary – This position took a hit by graduation and defection to NBA. By necessity, McClinton will probably be the highest scorer at this position but he will not be the best player. Clinch should be the top player on a good Tech team while Ellington, Grant and Rich will be top supporting players on their respective teams. Duke’s success will depend on its’ perimeter players. Nelson is the senior captain who will probably lead the team in scoring; Scheyer may be the best all around player on the team; and Henderson has the physical tools that make NBA scouts take notice. Some teams, such as Md, FS and VT need to find replacements for key players who left.

Frontcourt – Hansbrough (UNC), Costner (NCS), McCauley (NCS), Gist (Md), Mays (Clem), Booker (Clem), Thompson (UNC), Collins (Miami), plus freshmen Singler (Duke), Hickson (NCS) and Lawal (GT)

Frontcourt Summary – Hansbrough should be the best player in the league for the third straight year. Costner and Gist should have big years and Booker, Thompson and Collins should develop as sophs. Frontcourt is a strong position at UNC, Clemson and NC State and there is potential at Duke, Georgia Tech, Miami and Maryland.

Predicted All ACC by position: PG – Singletary; OG/W – Clinch, Nelson; Frontcourt – Hansbrough, Gist

gw67

JasonEvans
07-08-2007, 10:27 AM
Nice post and analysis. Lewis Clinch is a good dark-horse kinda pick for a guy to surprise some folks and be a first-team All-ACC player next season. He was one his way to a really special soph campaign when he ran into academic problems and got suspended. Obviously, there is no way to know how the extended layoff affected him -- it is my understanding that he was not allowed to practice with the team 2nd semester and even this summer -- but the kid was tearing it up when he went out.

I know it was against somewhat inferior competition, but he was averaging 17+ ppg through his first 10 games. He's as good a 3-point shooter as there is in the conference. It will probably help him to play alongside a "pass-first" PG in freshman Mo Miller this season as opposed to being on a team with Crittendon and Young, who were both looking for their shot A LOT of the time.

As an aside--- be on the lookout for Va Tech's freshman class. They brought in a bunch of athletes to run with Deron Washington. I bet one or two of them step up and relly have an impact. I hear this Jeff Allen kid is the real deal. Remember his name. He's a bear inside and has a lot of bounce. He's going to grab a ton of rebounds. His high school/prep school years certainly prepared him for ACC calliber play as he weent to DeMatha, Oak Hill, and Hargrave.

-Jason "aside from Hansy and Singletary, there is no one in the conference who is a lock for even 2nd team All-ACC... that's unusual" Evans

P.S.- Well, maybe Rice...

jimsumner
07-08-2007, 10:39 AM
"Hansbrough should be the best player in the league for the third straight year"

Beg pardon?

SilkyJ
07-08-2007, 10:58 AM
-Jason "aside from Hansy and Singletary, there is no one in the conference who is a lock for even 2nd team All-ACC... that's unusual" Evans

P.S.- Well, maybe Rice...

I dont think he's a lock, but I bet lawson makes at least 2nd team


"Hansbrough should be the best player in the league for the third straight year"

Beg pardon?

Yea, have you forgotten one Jonathon Clay Redick?

jimsumner
07-08-2007, 11:47 AM
I like the way GW67 quitely slipped in the bit about TH to see if folks are actually paying attention.

For the record, I don't even think TH was the best player in the ACC last year. I'd put Thornton and Dudley above him.

gw67
07-08-2007, 12:02 PM
I forgot to take my Ginkgo this morning! Of course, Redick and Williams were the top two players in the ACC during Hansbrough's freshman year.

I agree with Jason re Clinch. The little that I have seen him play, he was outstanding. In addition to Clinch, I think that Thompson (excellent offensive moves around basket and agressive going after the ball), Collins (the most impressive frontcourt athlete - good defense and rebounding plus nice short jumper) and Booker (very good fundamentals who improved as the season progressed) are the players who could be dark horse candidates for All ACC this year. As we have discussed many times, Henderson may have a breakout year as well but that was expected of him as a freshman.

gw67

JBDuke
07-08-2007, 12:12 PM
...

-Jason "aside from Hansy and Singletary, there is no one in the conference who is a lock for even 2nd team All-ACC... that's unusual" Evans

P.S.- Well, maybe Rice...


Nice post, gw67. As to Jason's comment above - I think Ellington is pretty much a lock for one of the top two teams, and I think he'll be Clinch's biggest rival for top shooting guard in the conference.

gw67
07-08-2007, 12:38 PM
jimsumner - In addition to forgetting my Ginkgo, I had my brain fried yesterday playing golf with my oldest son at the Glen Riddle Golf Club just East of Ocean City. The Golf Club was built on the farm and stables where Man O' War, War Admiral and many other racing horses were housed. Terrific golf course and wonderful afternoon but I probably shouldn't be playing golf in the afternoon heat at my age. Anyway, I agree with you that Thornton was probably the best player in the ACC last year.

I started this thread after my son commented that it will be a real down year for the ACC this coming season and I thought about the players returning. IMO, one of the weakest years for the ACC was the year after the Terps won the title. The All ACC team that year was Julius Hodge, Dahntay Jones, Steve Blake, Ed Scott and Josh Howard. This was the All Star team that couldn't shoot straight and, IMO, it was one of the weakest in recent memory. My feeling is that this year's All ACC team will likely be much better.

gw67

ACCBBallFan
07-08-2007, 01:16 PM
Not sure I am ready to annoint Deon Thompson as an all-ACC any more than Collier, Osby, Lance, Dickey or Jeremis Smith.

Here's a reply I dug out from a Deon will be All-ACC thread on another board

I know it does not go by position and recipients from prior year are not automatic, but here is a starter set of competition, and this list does not even include Lawson:

All-ACC Team

First team
1 *Tyler Hansbrough, North Carolina (106), 318
2 Sean Singletary, Virginia (100), 312

Second team
3 Tyrese Rice, Boston College, 177

Third team
4 Brandon Costner, N.C. State, 94
5 Jack McClinton, Miami, 48

Honorable mention (20 or more points)
6 Ben McCauley, N.C. State, 36
7 James Mays, Clemson, 34
8 DeMarcus Nelson, Duke, 34
9 James Gist, Maryland, 28

10 Tywon Lawson would get the nod before Deon, but I would think 3rd team or Honorable Mention may be in his reach, but each ACC team probably has a returning guy or new recruit they feel has just as good a shot as UNC fans feel Deon has.

First order of business is to win the ACC which would increase number of UNC recipients, but Ellington, Green and Ginyard are also competition for Deon.

NC State with a good finish might make a case for Gavin Grant.

Duke might have Singler or Henderson or maybe even Paulus.

GA Tech might have Dickey, Morrow, Jeremis Smith or Lewis Clinch.

Clemson might have KC Rivers or Booker or Hammonds.

MD might have Vasquez or Osby

BC might have Oates

FSU might have Swann or Rich

VA Tech might have Deron Washington or A J Vassallo

UVA might have Diane

somebody may surface for Wake

Only freshman I listed is Singler but JJ Hickson, Lawal and there are more

-----------------
GW67,

You listed Jon Scheyer, Tony Douglas, Ish Smith and Dwayne Collier whom I missed and I had a few you did not have as potentials: Dickey, Morrow, Jeremis Smith, KC Rivers, Cliff Hammonds, Osby, Oates (questionable but someone on BC besides Rice may surface), Swann, Vassallo, Diane, Ginyard and Green.

Very few locks but I would give players who got votes last year the early edge.

With respect to all defensive team, all five first team guys are gone but Honorable Mention all Defensive Nelson and Mays are the early favorites

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/030507aaq.html

gw67
07-08-2007, 01:53 PM
ACCBBallFan - I suspect that you are right about those who got votes last year, at least in the eyes of the media when they pick the preseason teams. I made my picks strictly from memory. There are a bunch of players who may emerge who I didn't identify such as Skeen of Wake but based on my view at this time, the ones I identified look to have either the game or the potential to be one of the top 15 players in the ACC next year.

I will briefly comment on a few that you mentioned then give you my two cents on Thompson.

Dickey, Morrow and Smith - all are nice players who will be part of the support cast for Clinch, IMO.

KC Rivers and Cliff Hammonds - again, they are nice players who will score some points but Clemson will go as far as Booker and Mays takes them, IMO.

Swann - He shares the ball more than Douglas but is not the scorer that Douglas is nor the all around player that Rich is.

Thompson - From the little I saw of Thompson, I liked his offensive play and his defensive rebounding. His problem may be that he is very similar to Hansbrough and may not be a good complement. Williams successfully handled this situation several times at Kansas and I expect the he will get these two frontcourt players to play well together.

gw67

Bay Area Duke Fan
07-08-2007, 05:05 PM
To those who included DeMarcus Nelson as All ACC, I hope you're right. But based upon his play the past few years, I can't see how he'll be one of the better players in the ACC.

In fact, I doubt that he'll be one of Duke's top players in 2007-08. I would expect that Singler, Paulus and Scheyer will all be more productive than Nelson in the coming season.

JasonEvans
07-08-2007, 10:08 PM
To those who included DeMarcus Nelson as All ACC, I hope you're right. But based upon his play the past few years, I can't see how he'll be one of the better players in the ACC.

In fact, I doubt that he'll be one of Duke's top players in 2007-08. I would expect that Singler, Paulus and Scheyer will all be more productive than Nelson in the coming season.

Just to be clear, you are aware that Markie led Duke in scoring and steals last year and was second in rebounding to the guy who left early for the NBA, right?

Oh, and did I mention that he was our best perimeter defender too?

Look, it is always hard to forecast who is going to step up and the such, but projecting Nelson, a senior, as one of Duke and the ACC's top players is hardly a reach.

-Jason "personally, I think Paulus will be our best player next year" Evans

Bob Green
07-09-2007, 07:10 AM
I expect DeMarcus Nelson to have a very good senior season as he will benefit from the addition of Nolan Smith. Last year, Nelson frequently had to guard our opponents fastest player. For example, Ty Lawson when we played Carolina. Smith will be able to assist in that role and allow Nelson to be the 2-guard on both ends of the court.

I consider All-ACC to be a distinct possibility for DeMarcus Nelson in 07-08.

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

Hector Vector
07-09-2007, 09:33 AM
First Team -- Hansborough, Singletary, Lawson, Costner, Mays
Second Team -- McCauley, Paulas, Vasquez, Singler, Rice
Third Team -- Toney, Gist, Nelson, Henderson, Clinch

1Devil
07-09-2007, 12:08 PM
Just to be clear, you are aware that Markie led Duke in scoring and steals last year and was second in rebounding to the guy who left early for the NBA, right?

Oh, and did I mention that he was our best perimeter defender too?

Look, it is always hard to forecast who is going to step up and the such, but projecting Nelson, a senior, as one of Duke and the ACC's top players is hardly a reach.

-Jason "personally, I think Paulus will be our best player next year" Evans

The fact that DeMarcus was our best player last year says all you need to know about last year's team. I expect him to make incremental improvements, but I expect this year's freshmen/sophomores to be much more effective than last year's freshmen/sophomores. A couple in that large group will have a good shot at being our best.

greybeard
07-09-2007, 01:25 PM
Jason "did I tell you that he was our best exterior defender" Evans is almost correct; well, not really.

David McClure was your best exterior player, but only if you count the zone aspects of K's, "he never plays zone defenses," half-court defense. McClure in every switch situation always remained with the ball out front, no matter who was coming off whom, and probably played the best defense for a team in the history of the planet, in my opinion, last year.

DeMarcus will shoot less, but almost always when he is is in rhythm, unlike last year when I believe that he was told he had to shoot regardless; will get many more rests this year; will have much more arc on his shot this year because he will have more legs under him because he will be asked to do much less and will get more rest; will finish more effectively this year but only because of the same stuff I just said: and may well end up being Duke's best player next year, but only if someone else doesn't, but I would not put my money on Paulus but only because of the foot which I hope will not continue to plague him but wishen and hopin won't make it necessarily so.

Otherwise I completely agree that Jason "I am always correct" Evans is spot on.

Patrick Yates
07-09-2007, 01:45 PM
The fact that DeMarcus was our best player last year says all you need to know about last year's team. I expect him to make incremental improvements, but I expect this year's freshmen/sophomores to be much more effective than last year's freshmen/sophomores. A couple in that large group will have a good shot at being our best.

The above post was dead-on. DeMarcus was our best defender, but was by no means a lock-down defender. It is not like he shut down Lawson or anything, so lets not go nuts about him on D. He is a very good defender, and the best such on our team next year.

But our offense last year was awful. Awful. Being the offensive leader on last year's team is like being the best looking girl at an ugly girl convention. Tis the epitome of darning with faint praise.

DN has huge holes in his Offensive game. Even the apologists on this board have to begrudge that. His outside shot is inconsistent, some of his drives are extremely ill-concieved, and his ball handling is mediocre.

That said, he made huge strides with his body last summer, and if his skills make a similiar jump this year, he can be All-ACC somewhere. He certainly has the raw ability, it just needs to be molded.

Regarding the All-ACC teams this year, we could be looking at a 99 type scenario. UNC is clearly the class of the conference next year. If they stay healthy, and the returning players improve (not a lot, just a modicum), UNC could be dominant. They might not lose a single conference game. At most, I see them losing only 1-3 (extreme outside, barring catastrophic injury) games this year.

If they do go undefeated, or lose only 1 game, then they should dominate the All-ACC teams. I can easily see them with 3 members of the 1st team, with TL, TH, and WE. Singletary could swoop up another spot, with the fifth slot open to whoever surprises this year. Probably someone from the next team in conference, us or Clemson.

We may not like it, but UNC has a bunch of talented players, and next year is a down year for virtually everyone else. The only team in conference stronger than usual is Clemson, and they are not world beaters. (I say that Duke is worse than usual, if better than last year, while NCSU could be approximately where they were in better Sendek years)

Which brings me to a question for the board.

Next year does not look like a NC type of year. It is not outside the realm of possibility for Duke to be a NC contender, but we are not even a darkhorse favorite at this time, nor should we be.

Next year however, we could be a team loaded with talent and experience. Most of the best players on the team are Soph or Fr. Only 3 players are older, DN, GP, and MP with the latter two almost certainly returning. Might this year not be a good one to focus on the future? I love DN, and I want him to play, a lot, but not 30+ mpg. It will not translate into significantly more wins this year, nor will a heavy dose of DN help when he is gone.

Does any one else want to see a focus on Duke building for the next NC title run, next year? Even if it may mean a few, if any, less wins this year?

All I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt for KS and GH to get used to having the reigns in their hands this year.

Patrick Yates

SilkyJ
07-09-2007, 01:51 PM
Just to be clear, you are aware that Markie led Duke in scoring and steals last year and was second in rebounding to the guy who left early for the NBA, right?

Oh, and did I mention that he was our best perimeter defender too?

Look, it is always hard to forecast who is going to step up and the such, but projecting Nelson, a senior, as one of Duke and the ACC's top players is hardly a reach.

-Jason "personally, I think Paulus will be our best player next year" Evans

I have been saying this for months, and I just dont understand how anyone thinks he wont be a starter or at least our 2nd best player if not best player.


Jason "did I tell you that he was our best exterior defender" Evans is almost correct; well, not really.

David McClure was your best exterior player, but only if you count the zone aspects of K's, "he never plays zone defenses," half-court defense. McClure in every switch situation always remained with the ball out front, no matter who was coming off whom, and probably played the best defense for a team in the history of the planet, in my opinion, last year.


You must be turning into alzheimers-beard cause Sheld didn't graduate that long ago...and then there was this other guy, what was his name....Bane Shattier??

SilkyJ
07-09-2007, 01:55 PM
Does any one else want to see a focus on Duke building for the next NC title run, next year? Even if it may mean a few, if any, less wins this year?

All I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt for KS and GH to get used to having the reigns in their hands this year.

Patrick Yates

This gets debated a lot and personally I would like to see it, but K will never do it. He always plays the players who give him the best chance to win THAT year.

Case and point: he knew McBob was leaving after last year b/c they decided that after his FRESHMAN year, and he therefore knew that Zoubek would be critical in the frontcourt this year, yet zoubek sat and sat last year...

VaDukie
07-09-2007, 02:06 PM
The above post was dead-on. DeMarcus was our best defender, but was by no means a lock-down defender. It is not like he shut down Lawson or anything, so lets not go nuts about him on D. He is a very good defender, and the best such on our team next year.

But our offense last year was awful. Awful. Being the offensive leader on last year's team is like being the best looking girl at an ugly girl convention. Tis the epitome of darning with faint praise.

DN has huge holes in his Offensive game. Even the apologists on this board have to begrudge that. His outside shot is inconsistent, some of his drives are extremely ill-concieved, and his ball handling is mediocre.

That said, he made huge strides with his body last summer, and if his skills make a similiar jump this year, he can be All-ACC somewhere. He certainly has the raw ability, it just needs to be molded.

Regarding the All-ACC teams this year, we could be looking at a 99 type scenario. UNC is clearly the class of the conference next year. If they stay healthy, and the returning players improve (not a lot, just a modicum), UNC could be dominant. They might not lose a single conference game. At most, I see them losing only 1-3 (extreme outside, barring catastrophic injury) games this year.

If they do go undefeated, or lose only 1 game, then they should dominate the All-ACC teams. I can easily see them with 3 members of the 1st team, with TL, TH, and WE. Singletary could swoop up another spot, with the fifth slot open to whoever surprises this year. Probably someone from the next team in conference, us or Clemson.

We may not like it, but UNC has a bunch of talented players, and next year is a down year for virtually everyone else. The only team in conference stronger than usual is Clemson, and they are not world beaters. (I say that Duke is worse than usual, if better than last year, while NCSU could be approximately where they were in better Sendek years)

Which brings me to a question for the board.

Next year does not look like a NC type of year. It is not outside the realm of possibility for Duke to be a NC contender, but we are not even a darkhorse favorite at this time, nor should we be.

Next year however, we could be a team loaded with talent and experience. Most of the best players on the team are Soph or Fr. Only 3 players are older, DN, GP, and MP with the latter two almost certainly returning. Might this year not be a good one to focus on the future? I love DN, and I want him to play, a lot, but not 30+ mpg. It will not translate into significantly more wins this year, nor will a heavy dose of DN help when he is gone.

Does any one else want to see a focus on Duke building for the next NC title run, next year? Even if it may mean a few, if any, less wins this year?

All I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt for KS and GH to get used to having the reigns in their hands this year.

Patrick Yates

I'm a bit more optimistic on our chances for next year. I think with our talent on the perimeter we'll be a Final Four contender - did anyone else at the banquest remember K insinuating that? . I think we'll spend most of the year hopping in and out of the top 10, and hopefully by March we'll be battle tested and ready to roll.

The story of Duke teams the past 10 years has been superb regular season play and somewhat dissapointing Tournament results. I hope some karma comes around that this is the year we can come from a 3 or 4 seed and knock off some other teams for a change. However, I don't think we'll be so good next year that the first weekend will be a breeze and we could very well be going home early again.

I hate to look to far forward into the crystal ball, but even if the worst case scenario comes to pass and we lose GH and KS early, we'll still be primed for a title run in 09.

greybeard
07-09-2007, 02:36 PM
You must be turning into alzheimers-beard cause Sheld didn't graduate that long ago...and then there was this other guy, what was his name....Bane Shattier??

Can't compare the teams that Sheld and Shattier played on, and their rolls on it, and the team that McClure played on. Last year's team did not score on runouts, ran clock everytime down, and were playing in a guard dominated league. McClure would play against the likes of VT or Va and remain on the ball. First he'd be on Singletary and stay in front of him, no matter what he tried to do, then Singletary would hand it off to R, and the same, than R would have Singletary come off him while still dribbling and keep it and McClure would still be there. Ditto with Dowdell, Washington, and the other Dude. Oh, and then McClure would go get the in-the-crowd rebound.

I did not say McClure was the best defender in Duke history. Just that he was asked to and did contribute more on defense than anyone I can remember. I don't remember too good anymore but I do remember the guys you mentioned. I stand by what I said.

And, if they did more defensively than McClure for their teams, what's your point? Mine hardly depended on literal truth.

Classof06
07-09-2007, 02:51 PM
The above post was dead-on. DeMarcus was our best defender, but was by no means a lock-down defender. It is not like he shut down Lawson or anything, so lets not go nuts about him on D. He is a very good defender, and the best such on our team next year.

But our offense last year was awful. Awful. Being the offensive leader on last year's team is like being the best looking girl at an ugly girl convention. Tis the epitome of darning with faint praise.

DN has huge holes in his Offensive game. Even the apologists on this board have to begrudge that. His outside shot is inconsistent, some of his drives are extremely ill-concieved, and his ball handling is mediocre.

That said, he made huge strides with his body last summer, and if his skills make a similiar jump this year, he can be All-ACC somewhere. He certainly has the raw ability, it just needs to be molded.

Regarding the All-ACC teams this year, we could be looking at a 99 type scenario. UNC is clearly the class of the conference next year. If they stay healthy, and the returning players improve (not a lot, just a modicum), UNC could be dominant. They might not lose a single conference game. At most, I see them losing only 1-3 (extreme outside, barring catastrophic injury) games this year.

If they do go undefeated, or lose only 1 game, then they should dominate the All-ACC teams. I can easily see them with 3 members of the 1st team, with TL, TH, and WE. Singletary could swoop up another spot, with the fifth slot open to whoever surprises this year. Probably someone from the next team in conference, us or Clemson.

We may not like it, but UNC has a bunch of talented players, and next year is a down year for virtually everyone else. The only team in conference stronger than usual is Clemson, and they are not world beaters. (I say that Duke is worse than usual, if better than last year, while NCSU could be approximately where they were in better Sendek years)

Which brings me to a question for the board.

Next year does not look like a NC type of year. It is not outside the realm of possibility for Duke to be a NC contender, but we are not even a darkhorse favorite at this time, nor should we be.

Next year however, we could be a team loaded with talent and experience. Most of the best players on the team are Soph or Fr. Only 3 players are older, DN, GP, and MP with the latter two almost certainly returning. Might this year not be a good one to focus on the future? I love DN, and I want him to play, a lot, but not 30+ mpg. It will not translate into significantly more wins this year, nor will a heavy dose of DN help when he is gone.

Does any one else want to see a focus on Duke building for the next NC title run, next year? Even if it may mean a few, if any, less wins this year?

All I am saying is that it wouldn't hurt for KS and GH to get used to having the reigns in their hands this year.

Patrick Yates

I'm with you in terms of Duke, Patrick. This team is 1-2 seasons away from being a legit contender. I'll lean towards one year, because a class of Henderson, Scheyer, Thomas and Zoubek as juniors should be pretty seasoned, when you consider they were thrown into the fire their freshman years. So, by the 2008-09 season, especially if we land either E. Williams or Monroe (not even both), I'd be surprised if we weren't one of the nation's elite teams heading into the season; if we're not, that means someone (Gerald, Singler, etc.) left early for the NBA, meaning they had a ridiculously good year and thus Duke probably did better as a team than we currently expect this coming season.

That being said, I'm with you in that I would like to see them prepare for that by giving the reins to kids like Henderson, Scheyer, Singler, and Smith. I'd include Paulus, but he already has the reins, so he's naturally part of this group. At this point, it looks to me that any NC in the forseeable future will be on the backs of these kids in particular. Why not start prepping them now?

As far as UNC goes, to say they could possibly run through the ACC undefeated, while not impossible, is pretty bold. They should be considered the best team in the league, but as I've said numerous times before, they have a lot of kids that will be asked to fill much larger roles than they did last year; for them to run through the ACC unscatched means you assume that will be a seamless transition. I'm not so sure it will be. While I don't forsee them losing to Virginia Tech twice again, they lost 5 conference games last year and while the conference might be weaker, I believe UNC will be as well; to assume they'll be better than last year after losing Brandan Wright and Reyshawn Terry is, again, pretty bold. The ACC may be a little down this year, but it's still the ACC.

If they go undefeated or once-defeated, I guess Ellington would probably have to be an All-ACC performer, but again, I think that's a stretch. Maybe it's because he had two awful games against Duke last year, but I'm not completely sold on this kid, not enough to give him that kind of respect. By the numbers, Scheyer had a better freshman year and had to carry a much heavier load. Therefore, to see Ellington go from having a comparable but inferior year to Scheyer one year to 1st team All-ACC the next is a highly impressive (though speculative) progression.

greybeard
07-09-2007, 03:09 PM
Got it. From now on I won't confuse what you said for what you meant.

Now that was funny.

McClure spent more time on the ball guarding the potential shooter than anybody I have ever seen who wore a Duke uniform, or any other for that matter. It was an extraordinary performance.

Neither Sheld nor Battier was asked to do anything comparable. Battier would play stopper on the best big, and Sheldon would provide great help defense. Neither was "on" like K asked McC to stay "on" the potential scorer/shooter for most all the time on each possession. Most extraordinary defensive performance I have seen, Sheldon and Battier included. Now, your case, sir, if you got one.

Or did you also not mean what you said, which sort of was lacking in any splanation. BTW, what's the hard edge about? You don't like McClure or something?

SilkyJ
07-09-2007, 03:09 PM
I did not say McClure was the best defender in Duke history. Just that he was asked to and did contribute more on defense than anyone I can remember.

Fair enough, but you did you say he was the best player in the history of the planet, which I think would encompass Duke bball history (see below since your memory is clearly failing you)


McClure in every switch situation always remained with the ball out front, no matter who was coming off whom, and probably played the best defense for a team in the history of the planet, in my opinion, last year.



And, if they did more defensively than McClure for their teams, what's your point? Mine hardly depended on literal truth.

Got it. From now on, I won't confuse what you said for what you meant.



You don't like McClure or something?.

I Love McClure. One of my favorites on the team. I dont like the fact that you arent making any sense.

greybeard
07-09-2007, 03:23 PM
Doing more for your team defensively in the history of the planet is not the same as being the best defender in the history of the planet. If that does not make sense, then it is the reader's problem not mine.

McClure played THE MAJOR role with regard to exterior defense on the team last year. The most important defender, however, was McRob. He was the anchor without whom the defense would not have worked. Period. But, the guy who worked the hardest, and who was principally responsible for stopping the shooter penetrators like those I mentioned was McClure. DeMarcus played terrific and tenacious defense, but McClure had the lead role and played it specularly, did more for his team defensively in the history of the world.

Now, make your case for someone else. Or don't.

I hardly was implying that there was dislike for McClure on this board.

greybeard
07-09-2007, 04:17 PM
I don't even know what you are talking about at this point. you are clearly going senile.

Is the best player in the league the guy who does the most for his team? Is there one answer to that question?

Who is more valuable on offense, the guy who creates space two passes away that allows the guy who catches it to beat his man because there is no help, or the guy who catches it and beats his man because he sees there is no help?

We know who gets the most credit. Is he the more valuable to the team? Depends on your perspective. Dr. Jack Ramsey would answer that question differently than most lay people. You still do not know what I am talking about do you?

Stop the childish stuff, or don't. Senile ain't nearly as bad as nasty.

Classof06
07-09-2007, 04:34 PM
Doing more for your team defensively in the history of the planet is not the same as being the best defender in the history of the planet. If that does not make sense, then it is the reader's problem not mine.

McClure played THE MAJOR role with regard to exterior defense on the team last year. The most important defender, however, was McRob. He was the anchor without whom the defense would not have worked. Period. But, the guy who worked the hardest, and who was principally responsible for stopping the shooter penetrators like those I mentioned was McClure. DeMarcus played terrific and tenacious defense, but McClure had the lead role and played it specularly, did more for his team defensively in the history of the world.

Now, make your case for someone else. Or don't.

I hardly was implying that there was dislike for McClure on this board.

Go take a look at Shelden Williams' senior year. Talk about ridiculous responsibilities. Not only was he the backbone of the whole defense, he got absolutely no help defensively (we never double-teamed or trapped the post), and he had to help out on EVERY dribble penetration. Each night we relied on Shelden to be the ultimate help defender, to be the last line of defense, to be "The Landlord," all while guarding his own man on an island. Keep in mind, our perimeter routinely featured Paulus and Redick, along with significant minutes from Melchionni; these are 3 average defenders at best. And on top of all this, we couldn’t even afford for him to foul out of a game! McRoberts was wet behind the ears and Boateng surely wasn’t going to cut it (even if he could, we'll never know). IMO, Shelden was as valuable to the 05-06 team defensively as JJ was offensively. Maybe even more.

Krzyzewski couldn't have asked any more of this kid defensively, and I suspect that's one reason why nobody at Duke will ever wear #23 again.

RepoMan
07-09-2007, 04:51 PM
Does any one else want to see a focus on Duke building for the next NC title run, next year? Even if it may mean a few, if any, less wins this year?


Patrick Yates

Patrick: I like to read your posts, but you suggest a most unpalatable strategy. If Coack K ever adopted such a loser mentality (sacrifice the potential accomplishments of this team for that which might be realized by the next team), I would hope for a replacement coach.

What would you say to DeMarcus? "Look son, I know you've worked your a** off for me for four years, and I know you give us the best chance to win games, but I think Gerald needs more experience so that he is better next year, so you need to ride the pine. Sorry."

It doesn't get much worse than that. I hope you don't really think that's a good idea. Frankly, its unethical.

greybeard
07-09-2007, 04:57 PM
Go take a look at Shelden Williams' senior year. Talk about ridiculous responsibilities. Not only was he the backbone of the whole defense, he got absolutely no help defensively (we never double-teamed or trapped the post), and he had to help out on EVERY dribble penetration. Each night we relied on Shelden to be the ultimate help defender, to be the last line of defense, to be "The Landlord," all while guarding his own man on an island. Keep in mind, our perimeter routinely featured Paulus and Redick, along with significant minutes from Melchionni; these are 3 average defenders at best. And on top of all this, we couldn’t even afford for him to foul out of a game! McRoberts was wet behind the ears and Boateng surely wasn’t going to cut it (even if he could, we'll never know). IMO, Shelden was as valuable to the 05-06 team defensively as JJ was offensively. Maybe even more.

Krzyzewski couldn't have asked any more of this kid defensively, and I suspect that's one reason why nobody at Duke will ever wear #23 again.

Good case.

Perhaps I was just too taken with the unusual quality of everybody on the team switching on all screens except McClure who stayed with the ball no matter what. I found that extraordinary, and could only imagine how strong and solid and balanced he'd have had to be to stay in front of the guys he was on and how long he had to stay down in a defensive stance on the ball.

Your case for Shelden is strong. In fact, I was "sure" as a frequent ajc poster that a principal reason he went at 5 was that he would absolutely shut down the pick and roll at key times, particularly at the end of games. If I posted that onceon the ajc site, I posted it a thousand times. Can't help but think that Woody has badly misused the guy.

I have to say also that I was even more impressed with Shelden's performance on offense his last year than his defense. His dominance inside was astounding. I also saw Duke that year as an offensive powerhouse built around a Mr. OUTSIDE extraordinaire and a dominent Mr. Inside. Stops seemed to be made at more strategic times that year; last year, each time down was the Battle of the Bulge.

Anyway, I just have never seen anybody deployed on defense the way that McClure was. Was, am, blown away with K's vision and the kid's performance.

jaimedun34
07-09-2007, 07:46 PM
The idea of losing games now to win games later is just ridiculous, and I'm a bit disappointed to hear it from Duke fans. After seasons like '95 and '07, you would think that every win is appreciated. Who's to say that Henderson is even here for his junior year? You never, ever know how the next season is going to shake out and you should never base what you do this season on what you want to do next season (unless you are installing your system offensively/defensivly ex: motion offense and man to man) That is what the summer and preseason are for!

It's just funny that everyone dumps on Nelson for having major holes in his game. He seriously might as well give his scholarship to Patrick Davidson, because he can offer nothing to the team. He can't shoot, he can't handle the ball, he can't distribute... I mean, what does he bring to the table for this Duke team?

ACCBBallFan
07-10-2007, 05:35 AM
I do not consider it playing inferior this year to be superior next but rather playing less than optimal in early part of season to be most proficient at end of season, and I am thinking Zoubek, not the guys others have mentioned.

Zoubek is the only true post player, and even getting Monroe does not change that. Duke may still win without Zoubek but chances are greatly improved if he is allowed to learn in games.

whereinthehellami
07-10-2007, 07:54 AM
After reading the thread, a couple of points jumped out to me:


Our offense next year should be a strength. Our guys have the talent to put the ball in the bucket and now they have the experience. The leadership of Paulus (his team) should help the "chemistry issues" from last year and IMO Singler is going to infuse the team with a jolt of offense (creativity).



McClure did play great defense last year (especially pre-injury) and was a good rebounder for his size. If he regains his confidence from re-aggravating his knee I think he will start. I think we will have enough offense from the other guys that McClure's energy, defense, rebounding, and overall "glueness" will make him one of the most important players on the team next season, especially when you consider our frontcourt issues.

jimsumner
07-10-2007, 09:58 AM
"The idea of losing games now to win games later is just ridiculous, and I'm a bit disappointed to hear it from Duke fans."

Krzyzewski did pretty much this in 1983 when he threw a bunch of freshman to the wolves in preference to more experienced players like Chip Engelland, Mike Tissaw and Doug McNeely. The context was different, of course. K was building his program in 1983 and he's maintaining it now. But the idea of giving up short-term benefits for better long-term benefits is not inherently ridiculous.

That said, I fully expect K to play the lineup that gives Duke the best chance of winning. He has said on numerous occasions that he expects Duke to compete for the NCAA title every year. Just because Duke didn't compete for the NCAA title last year doesn't mean he's abandoned that philosophy.

ACCBBallFan
07-10-2007, 10:14 AM
After reading the thread, a couple of points jumped out to me:


Our offense next year should be a strength. Our guys have the talent to put the ball in the bucket and now they have the experience. The leadership of Paulus (his team) should help the "chemistry issues" from last year and IMO Singler is going to infuse the team with a jolt of offense (creativity).



McClure did play great defense last year (especially pre-injury) and was a good rebounder for his size. If he regains his confidence from re-aggravating his knee I think he will start. I think we will have enough offense from the other guys that McClure's energy, defense, rebounding, and overall "glueness" will make him one of the most important players on the team next season, especially when you consider our frontcourt issues.

Your two points seem to contradict one another. McClure no doubt adds value on defense, but that would be at expense of offense.

Unless Duke plays small ball with Singler at 5 center and McClure at forward, along with Paulus, Nelson and Scheyer/Henderson, are you saying McClure starts in lieu of Singler, which may happen in early part of year due to experience.

If small ball with Singler at center were the lineup in Blue-White game, Zoubek could guard McClure (as could any opponent's slower big) leaving Lance/King to guard Singler. Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson match up with Smith-Henderson-Pocius.

The difference might boil down to Singler, whether he can be as effective guarding Zoubek as he was against Kousfas, and whether he can be the scoring difference between the two teams, plus how well the other frosh play vis a vis Duke's returning nucleus.

Duke has a lot of guys like McClure, with Taylor King his antithesis, that may be plusses on one end of the floor but minuses on the other. Similarly Duke needs Paulus's leadership and playmaking but defense is not his forte, with Marty vice versa.

Nobody is better than coach K at mixing and matching. This could be a year where who plays game to game depends on the matchups the opponent presents.

whereinthehellami
07-10-2007, 11:00 AM
Your two points seem to contradict one another. McClure no doubt adds value on defense, but that would be at expense of offense.

Unless Duke plays small ball with Singler at 5 center and McClure at forward, along with Paulus, Nelson and Scheyer/Henderson, are you saying McClure starts in lieu of Singler, which may happen in early part of year due to experience.

My point was that with a year of experience and obvious talent/skills Duke's offense should no longer be a liability. I don't think the fact that McClure isn't a great offensive threat will be as big of a deal as alot of people are making it out to be. The rest of the line-up has punch and can score. I think McClure showed that he could hit the 10-15 footer early last year before he lost a little bit of confidence. I wouldn't be suprised to see him hold his own if let open. I'd be more worried about BZ and LT being able to be productive on the offensive end. And as far as the other aspects of the game/intaglibles, I would take McClure ahead of BZ and LT. I think it gets dicier between McClure/GH but I think I'd still start with Dave as his energy, stamina, and experience give him the edge in my book.

Gotta run...mid thought.

RepoMan
07-10-2007, 11:25 AM
Krzyzewski did pretty much this in 1983 when he threw a bunch of freshman to the wolves in preference to more experienced players like Chip Engelland, Mike Tissaw and Doug McNeely. The context was different, of course.

I think the context was substantially different.

The suggestion made above is that K should sacrifice wins today to gain wins tomorrow. Do you think Duke would have won more games in 82-83 if Johnny Dawkins et al played less?

I guess no one will know the answer, but I'd bet my last dollar that K believed that playing the Freshman as much as he did in 82-83 gave the team the best chance of winning THAT season.

PS: Seniors England and Emma were in the top 6 rotation, averaging over 20 minutes a game in 82-83 after K brought in his key Freshman class.

jimsumner
07-10-2007, 11:58 AM
Repoman,

I've written extensively about the class of '86 and have talked about that '83 season with all the principles, including K. There is absolutely no doubt that Mike Krzyzewski made a conscious decision to go with the lineup that brought Duke the best chance of winning down the line. That included diminishing the playing time of holdovers Mike Tissaw, Chip Engelland, Doug McNeely, Todd Anderson, Dan Meagher, Greg Wendt, and Jay Bryan. Every single holdover from '82 played less in '83.

Chip Engelland sat on the bench for four games before he bought into the program. By sat on the bench, I mean zero minutes played. Engelland was sixth in the ACC in scoring in 1982 and was a senior in '83. His PT dropped from 1008 minutes in '82 to 516 in '83. That's a pretty steep drop. Tissaw went from 728 mp in '81 to 611 in '82 to 46 in '83. And he also was a senior. McNeely went from 23 mpg to 7.5 mpg before dropping off the team; he came back in '84.

The other decision made by K that season was to play man-to-man even though a judicious use of zone likely would have helped the short-term w/l record. Duke got absolutely toasted that year on D. But they learned.

K's thinking was that he was going to win with the freshmen and they were going to be playing man-to-man when they won, whether it was this year or next.

Trust me, lots of young coaches on the spot would not have had the nerve to bypass the experience for youth. It took a lot of confidence for K to do so and a lot of support for Butters to tell the critics--many of whom were prominent high rollers--to take a hike. I have a great deal of admiration for both men.


As stated in a prior post, I neither want nor expect K to make comparable decisions this season. But I still maintain that the CONCEPT of playing more talented but less experienced players ahead of less talented but more experienced players in order to develop a program for the future is not inherently illogical.

RepoMan
07-10-2007, 01:05 PM
Sounds like you know more than me, so I defer.

I have absolutely zero first-hand knowledge, so your judgment is much better informed than my opinion.

Making the question abstract, I have no problem with playing youth over experience, if you think that youth gives you a better chance to win (perhaps because the youth in question includes massive talent that far exceeds that of the experienced players). But, a decision to sacrifice a current season, along with the senior year of athletes who have very short careers (esp if they have no pro options), because it will help the next season, while not inherently illogical, strikes me as fundamentally unfair, and, well, inconsistent with a winning attitude.

Classof06
07-10-2007, 03:27 PM
Sounds like you know more than me, so I defer.

I have absolutely zero first-hand knowledge, so your judgment is much better informed than my opinion.

Making the question abstract, I have no problem with playing youth over experience, if you think that youth gives you a better chance to win (perhaps because the youth in question includes massive talent that far exceeds that of the experienced players). But, a decision to sacrifice a current season, along with the senior year of athletes who have very short careers (esp if they have no pro options), because it will help the next season, while not inherently illogical, strikes me as fundamentally unfair, and, well, inconsistent with a winning attitude.

I agree with you that would be ethically problematic, but I think you're looking at it from an extreme point of view. What I mean is just what Lance said in his interview the other day; it doesn't have to be just the upperclassmen taking the leadership roles, especially when we have so few upperclassmen. These kids don't or shouldn't have to defer, especially when they're going to be the core of what looks like a very bright future for this program. As was expected, so much relied on the makeshift upperclassmen last year that when Paulus misses a month of preseason, McClure re-aggravates his knee, and Josh doesn't seem to take the reins like people expect, you become a team with no direction, losing 4 out of your last 5 games. Lance was the most vocal freshman last year and even he said he deferred too much. That's how it is when you're as young as we were last year, but this isn't last year.

My point is that I wanna see these sophomores like Scheyer, Henderson, Thomas, Zoubek and maybe even a Singler or a Nolan Smith take as much ownership in this thing as a Nelson. Because as I said earlier, any championship (ACC or NCAA) we win in the forseeable future will be won on the backs of those kids, and most likely not Nelson's. That's not Demarcus' fault, but given both the size and promise of the last, present and next recruiting classes, Duke is headed straight for a situation where they have both superior depth and talent to last year, and maybe even this year (depending on who signs, who defects, etc).That's more of a reason to put these kids on the front line ASAP, and last year was a good start despite the end result. The quicker our youth develops, the closer we'll get to the promise land. I think it's a situation where you want to place as much onus on the young kids as you would a Demarcus as opposed to minimalizing Demarcus' role.

greybeard
07-10-2007, 07:55 PM
Your two points seem to contradict one another. McClure no doubt adds value on defense, but that would be at expense of offense.

Unless Duke plays small ball with Singler at 5 center and McClure at forward, along with Paulus, Nelson and Scheyer/Henderson, are you saying McClure starts in lieu of Singler, which may happen in early part of year due to experience.

If small ball with Singler at center were the lineup in Blue-White game, Zoubek could guard McClure (as could any opponent's slower big) leaving Lance/King to guard Singler. Paulus-Scheyer-Nelson match up with Smith-Henderson-Pocius.

The difference might boil down to Singler, whether he can be as effective guarding Zoubek as he was against Kousfas, and whether he can be the scoring difference between the two teams, plus how well the other frosh play vis a vis Duke's returning nucleus.

Duke has a lot of guys like McClure, with Taylor King his antithesis, that may be plusses on one end of the floor but minuses on the other. Similarly Duke needs Paulus's leadership and playmaking but defense is not his forte, with Marty vice versa.

Nobody is better than coach K at mixing and matching. This could be a year where who plays game to game depends on the matchups the opponent presents.

Also, it might be that with less a defensive load, McClure might show better on offense. Last year K obviously wanted to keep the score down and he had in McRob the sweeper (soccer term, sorry guys) to make the half court strangle-hold approach to defense work. Might not use that tack this year, and ask less of McClure on the defensive end. If so, he might have more to give, physically and otherwise, on the offensive end. That game-ender showed some specialness with the ball in his hands.

Who knows. All I know is that I wouldn't want to have to play him head up to compete for playing time. You beat him, game day is a vacation.

Patrick Yates
07-11-2007, 11:42 AM
The idea of losing games now to win games later is just ridiculous, and I'm a bit disappointed to hear it from Duke fans. After seasons like '95 and '07, you would think that every win is appreciated. Who's to say that Henderson is even here for his junior year? You never, ever know how the next season is going to shake out and you should never base what you do this season on what you want to do next season (unless you are installing your system offensively/defensivly ex: motion offense and man to man) That is what the summer and preseason are for!

It's just funny that everyone dumps on Nelson for having major holes in his game. He seriously might as well give his scholarship to Patrick Davidson, because he can offer nothing to the team. He can't shoot, he can't handle the ball, he can't distribute... I mean, what does he bring to the table for this Duke team?

I never suggested sitting, or even not starting, DN. I simply do not want to see him playing 30+ mpg, nor do I want him to be the focus point of the offense.

But, you guys are right, K is going to play the guys who give us the best chance to win. Not for the year, but the best chance to win the next game, even if that would be no help later in the year.

Thus, here is what will happen. GP and DN will get arround 35 mpg. Smith will play sparingly, and we will see a lot of 3 and 4 guard lineups with GH and DN on court at the same time. DN will play more than GH. JS will be the primary SG, with DN and GH splitting time at the SF. Whichever of the three posts, KS, LT, or BZ, is not ready to go, immediately, will spend the season on the bench, playing sparingly. KS (probably) will play a lot, one of the other two will play some, and the third will get mop up duty.

That rotation will be the one most ready to play on the first day of practice, and the first game of the season. They will play a lot, early, and will thus gel, early. The team will look good during the acc (during a year in which a professional women's team could be competitive some nights), and then falter down the stretch, and get destroyed in the sweet 16.

Next year, we will have to replace DN's monster minutes, and GH and/or KS will have to adjust to a new role as foc(us/al)point(s) of the offense. They may or may not get it during the year in time for the NCAAs. If we're lucky. GH or KS might be good enough to go pro in a weak draft leaving us SOL if we do not get EW and/or Monroe.

My point was that KS and GH, and the rest of the team, should get used to these guys being the center points of the O this year, a year when we do not have realistic FF aspirations, unless BZ is much better than last year, and KS is a stud from day 1.

DN is a good kid, and a good player. But, from his freshman year, his weaknesses have been ball handling and perimeter shooting. In three years he did not address those problems. Maybe he was snake-bit by injuries. That sucks.

Again, not saying he shouldn't play. He should play, a lot. But he should not be the focus of the offense. His ceiling just isn't as high as GH and KS (or NS and maybe BZ). Optimism for the year is fine. But not delusion.

On a side note, do not let your hatred of UNC blind you. They are going to be good this year. WE will be worlds better than last year, and TL will be able to hit outside jumpers next year. And you better believe that TH is working on his midrange game. Thomson has lost 15-20lbs to around 240, and is looking nasty (according to a newspaper artilce from somewhere). Only 2-3 teams in conference have the talent to play with UNC: Duke, Clemson, and NCSU.

Clemson may have a mental block where UNC is concerned, and NCSU has guard issues. That leaves Duke, and I do not think we beat them at the dome unless we hit 60+% from 3. At Cameron, we have a shot, but that is the last game of the year, so both teams can gel, so who knows. Yes, I can really see UNC going undefeated in conference. They are almost as good as last year (considering player improvement). The conference is just weak this year.

Patrick Yates

ACCBBallFan
07-11-2007, 01:07 PM
Patrick, your concern about too much PT for Nelson is mis-directed as Scheyer, Henderson and Singler will surely get all the minutes they can handle, which will place them in good stread for next year.

How many minutes these four plus Paulus play has more of an effect on Marty, Nolan and Taylor. Marty appeared to be ready had it not been for the ankle injury. We wil have to see if the two frosh are ready or need a year of the freshman Marty treatment to get ready.

I think it will be some time before any ACC team goes undefeated in conference. Some were saying that about UNC last year and they lost 5 conference games and almost had to play in Thursday ACC tourney game.

Every year some UNC guy gets over annointed as pre-saeon All -ACC, whether it be Terrry two years in a row and now Deon, who will be decent but not great. I actually look for juniors Green and Ginyard to have more of an impact than sophomores Deon or Alex, but Tyler will be a beast and Lawson will be very good, maybe Ellington too, or even Frasor if his foot is healed.

Lance if paried with Tyler would also look more promising than Deon/Alex by their lonesomes on another team would.

Hard to imagine UNC winning all its games with Duke(2), NCS(2), Clemson(2) and the infamous streak, BC (2) whom they have struggled against, and GA Tech (away), UVA (away) and Miami (away). FSU (2) and Homes with MD, VA Tech and WF should not be too much of a problem.

gw67
07-11-2007, 02:15 PM
I started this thread last Sunday and it appears that it has, as sometimes happens, taken a different direction. That's OK by me since I enjoy reading different opinions regarding next year's team even when I disagree with some of them. Since I had the audacity to suggest Nelson (along with four other Duke players) will be among the top players in the ACC next year and predicted that he would be first team (by position), I will make my case.

Nelson will be the captain and a senior starter on a good Duke team (in the top 3 in the ACC). I expect him to average 14-16 ppg on a well balanced team. He obviously needs to improve his ball handling, passing and foul shooting. I expect him to improve marginally in each of these areas during his senior year. He is an excellent defensive player and a good rebounder for his size. When I read the posts of the past couple of days I note that someone put Nelson's defensive abilities down because he wasn't a "lock down" defender. I'm sorry, but I'm not sure one of those exists in college basketball today (and very few in the 24 second game). With all the NPOY's who have played for Duke, only Grant and Billy King would occasionally shut someone down cold. Nelson is a tough defender who is strong, has good defensive fundamentals, guards multiple size players, doesn't foul excessively, and makes opponents work hard for their points. He has improved his defensive stats (rebounding, steals and blocks) every year and is often called upon by Coach K to guard the best non-big man on the opposition. It would not surprise me if Paulus had a better year and made All ACC but my picks were by position. Lastly, he is well thought of by the folks who picked the players who try out for the Pan Am team. Just my two cents.

gw67

greybeard
07-11-2007, 02:19 PM
Where the term "two cents" came from, or are you all too young?

gw67
07-11-2007, 02:39 PM
Apparently, it originated as a gambling term - "put my two cents in". See links.

http://members.aol.com/MorelandC/HaveOriginsData.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_two_cents_(idiom)

gw67

greybeard
07-11-2007, 03:36 PM
Apparently, it originated as a gambling term - "put my two cents in". See links.

http://members.aol.com/MorelandC/HaveOriginsData.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/My_two_cents_(idiom)

gw67

Back in the day, when you went to the "candy" store to hang out, you sat at the counter and drank your egg cream (no, there are no eggs in em), which cost 15 cents, or a fountain soda which cost either 5 (small) or 10 cents (large), and talked dodgers/Yankees with the boyz. Now, there were no fountains that spewed out mixed drinks in those days. You placed your order, the guy spritzed some syrup (coke, cherry, chocolate) into the bottom of a glass, hit the seltzer tap, stirred, and voila, you had your drink.

Now, if you had no money and your friends were the kind that I had, you might end up with a glass of plain seltzer, which in the hood, was known as a 2 cents plain because that's how much it cost.

Now, nobody in the world, at least nobody in the world that counted, wanted anything to do with a 2 cents plain. Therefore, when you were offering your opinion, which like a glass of seltzer you knew that nobody in the world that counted, which were the guys in the candy store, wanted to hear, you began by saying, "let me stick my two cents in."

That is how the phrase originated; at least, that is my story and I'm stickin to it!

For two bits, you could go to a double feature and five cartoons on Saturday afternoon, and buy a slice of pizza on the way, 15 cents, and an ice cream when you watched the movie, a cup of chocolate and vanilla for 10 cents.

Two cents never got you in no poker game even back then!

jimsumner
07-11-2007, 03:54 PM
Oh NO! Not another poker thread. :rolleyes:

jaimedun34
07-11-2007, 05:50 PM
sorry I went off a bit before, it's just that our fanbase, for some reason, loves to build other players up by putting down the players they compete with. We always expect the new player to be some kind of saviour and that rarely is the case. On Nelson, his ball handling and shooting are not very good, but he has made major strides in the shooting department since his freshman year. He just needs more consistency.

I agree 110% that no player on Duke should play more than 30 mpg. I have a feeling Paulus will get 35 mpg, though, if he can handle it. I'm hoping that Nolan Smith will gain enough of K's trust and play well enough to spell Paulus for a few minutes each half.

Patrick Yates
07-12-2007, 08:47 AM
You also have a valid point. If, and I believe it to be a big if, DN can improve his shooting and ball handling, Duke can be very good this year. However, we have not seen a significant improvement. Sure, DN has made small strides in these areas, but not a jump. Personally, I think we have seen all the skill improvement we are liklely to see out of DN. He will still be valuable, but not the team Superstar, as I believe KS and GH COULD be.

Patrick Yates

Waynne
07-12-2007, 09:31 PM
In a way, I hope those who are dissing Nelson's abilities prove to be correct. As Jason or someone pointed out earlier in the thread, despite the flaws in his game, DN led last year's team in scoring, was second in rebounding, and was by FAR our best perimeter defender. He had a few bad games, but was the only player on last year's team who consistently played at a high level the entire season. He is our most experienced player by a long shot. He will be an integral part of this year's team, and will very likely average 30+ min./game (as will Paulus, Scheyer, and Singler).

If someone can beat DN out for a position, or even cause him to play reduced minutes, then we will be a pretty good team.

KvilleNC
07-12-2007, 10:22 PM
Hansborough is all hype. He has no range and will get angry and whiny in crucial situations (such as at NC ST when he blew it and didnt contribute in the last ten minutes of the game). I agree that hansborough will make first team all-ACC but he isnt as good as everyone says.

+there is no way James Gist will make 1st team or even second team. Hes terrible, all he does is dunk

Indoor66
07-13-2007, 10:04 AM
In a way, I hope those who are dissing Nelson's abilities prove to be correct. As Jason or someone pointed out earlier in the thread, despite the flaws in his game, DN led last year's team in scoring, was second in rebounding, and was by FAR our best perimeter defender. He had a few bad games, but was the only player on last year's team who consistently played at a high level the entire season. He is our most experienced player by a long shot. He will be an integral part of this year's team, and will very likely average 30+ min./game (as will Paulus, Scheyer, and Singler).

If someone can beat DN out for a position, or even cause him to play reduced minutes, then we will be a pretty good team.

Great post - but don't bet the farm on someone beating him out. :D