Osama Bin Laden IS DEAD

[DevilOfATime]

Breaking right now

[hurleyfor3]

Sure it's not just a toe injury?

[Jarhead]

I have been watching the ABC coverage, and he's dead. They have his body, and have verified his DNA. Agencies are on alert in case his death triggers prepositioned attacks. We'll see tomorrow how the world reacts. Huge sense of relief, but we have to remain vigilant.

[Jarhead]

Sure it's not just a toe injury?

Yes, very sure. His toe is as dead as the rest of him. The President will be on TV in a couple of minutes to report what they know.

[duke74]

Breaking right now

Good riddance. Hades has a new resident tonight.

[JasonEvans]

Folks, I am unlocking this thread because I know many members of the DBR community will want to join together to celebrate this news -- even as crowds are gathering all over the country to celebrate it together.

However, I also want to issue a warning -- as you all should know, we do not allow partisan political discussion on the DBR. Please keep your thoughts in this thread away from the political arena. We will cite and delete anything that ventures into partisan bickering or taunting.

Thanks... and now lets all get back to celebrating a great moment in American history.

--Jason "mad props to the folks who found him, planned this mission, kept it secret, and carried it out... amazing triumph of American intel and military" Evans

[snowdenscold]

I saw this on DBR before I checked my regular news sites, so DBR can claim: "You heard it here first."

Anyway, awesome news. Too bad I drove by the White House an hour or two before the gatherings started.

[Lord Ash]

Good. Having lived in NYC for a lot of years, including blocks away from the towers when they went down, I can't tell you how long I've been waiting for this. Well, actually, I guess I can... since 9/11/01.

Not often that waking up to news of a death is a good thing, but this is one of those times.

BTW... Seal Team? Runthroughs of mockups of the house? Crashed American helo? No casualties? Woman who is a human shield? How quickly until this becomes a movie?

Oh, and this might sound horrible, but there better be some photos of that body forthcoming. I understand WHY the buried at sea, but still...

[roywhite]

The kids at Penn State were pretty happy about the news.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=txQo8yEIqPY

[OldPhiKap]

a -a- a- a- h- h - h . . . . . SEE 'YA!!!!!!!!

[sagegrouse]

With Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari and PM Yousaf Raza Gillani by Gates and Clinton and with Army commander Ashfan Pervez Kayani by Adm. Mullen.

Subject: Osama lived for years only forty miles from Islamabad and in a compound near one of Pakistan's main military academies and only a few hundred yards from Pakistan Army units.

How is it possible that the location of Osama was not known to the Army and the ISI? And if it was known, why was this "problem" for Pakistan and America not eliminated by the Pakistanis? "And General," asks Adm. Mullen, "perhaps you can answer why the United States has given nearly $12 billion in military aid to Pakistan as part of the War on Terror if not to eliminate Osama?"

sagegrouse

[77devil]

With Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari and PM Yousaf Raza Gillani by Gates and Clinton and with Army commander Ashfan Pervez Kayani by Adm. Mullen.

Subject: Osama lived for years only forty miles from Islamabad and in a compound near one of Pakistan's main military academies and only a few hundred yards from Pakistan Army units.

How is it possible that the location of Osama was not known to the Army and the ISI? And if it was known, why was this "problem" for Pakistan and America not eliminated by the Pakistanis? "And General," asks Adm. Mullen, "perhaps you can answer why the United States has given nearly $12 billion in military aid to Pakistan as part of the War on Terror if not to eliminate Osama?"

sagegrouse

Either deception or willful ignorance and incompetence none of which are desirable.

[Udaman]

Unbelievable. Not the news, but that nobody is questioning it.

The most wanted man in the history of the U.S.....and we kill him....and then immediately bury him at sea. No photos of the body. No bringing him back to the U.S.?

I'm sorry, but this smacks of a massive conspiracy. Let's look at the facts:

1) No body. Immediatly buried at sea, even though the closest sea is 900 miles away. So now there is no way to identify this body for sure. They said they didn't want to bury him on land to create a shrine. WTF? Bury him on U.S. soil in a military compound where nobody can get to it.

2) No survivors of the raid. Nobody to verify anything.

3) Compound then burned. Thus no way to verify anything.

4) DNA proven. Seriously? In just a few hours they got a piece of his body, flew it to some medical center and had it verified? And all in time to quickly bury his body at sea?

I'm sorry. I don't buy it at all. I've said before, I firmly believe Bin Laden was killed way back when the war started. The guy was an absolute media hound, and he flaunted in our face that we couldn't catch him. And over the last 9 years all we've had are radio messages from him - nothing on TV. Nothing that could confirm it was him.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not. I laugh at the people who claim 9/11 was a hoax, or that we never walked on the moon, etc, etc. But this is a joke. And we are all the punch line.

In the end it doesn't really matter because the bottom line is that this murderer was indeed killed, but trust me, over the next decades there will be a ton written on when and how Osama was really killed.

[Lord Ash]

While I agree that no bringing home the body is a little fishy, there have been Bin Laden tapes up to rather recently, so I don't think he has been dead for years and years, and I definitely don't think the US government would be capable of hiding it for some plot to maintain fear in America.

I am sure that photos of the body will circulate shortly. I think the idea of dumping the body at sea is a strange one, but the reasoning behind it is fairly sound.

The level of sophistication and secrecy needed to pull of a "hoax" in something like this I think is beyond the ability of any group to maintain. Strange circumstances, yes, but I think it is legit.

[Udaman]

I wish that was true. But basically, all you need are a few people who dropped the bunker buster bomb on a site where they thought he was, and then the realization that he was never seen again. We couldn't find him because there was nothing left to find.

If pictures of the body show up, then maybe I'll buy into this. But this just smells all kinds of wrong to me.

[Channing]

Folks, I am unlocking this thread because I know many members of the DBR community will want to join together to celebrate this news -- even as crowds are gathering all over the country to celebrate it together.



I am pretty conflicted by the above. I think OBL was a horrible horrible man, and deserved to die. However, I don't think that celebrating death is a good thing. We found him, we killed him. Mission accomplished. I know there are huge gaping wounds left after 9/11, and a lot of people may find this news and subsequent celebration cathartic. However, just as I despise videos of, for example, Palestinians dancing and celebrating death and destruction in Israel, I have a similar feeling towards dancing and celebrating this death.

[sagegrouse]

Unbelievable. Not the news, but that nobody is questioning it.

The most wanted man in the history of the U.S.....and we kill him....and then immediately bury him at sea. No photos of the body. No bringing him back to the U.S.?

I'm sorry, but this smacks of a massive conspiracy. Let's look at the facts:

1) No body. Immediatly buried at sea, even though the closest sea is 900 miles away. So now there is no way to identify this body for sure. They said they didn't want to bury him on land to create a shrine. WTF? Bury him on U.S. soil in a military compound where nobody can get to it.

2) No survivors of the raid. Nobody to verify anything.

3) Compound then burned. Thus no way to verify anything.

4) DNA proven. Seriously? In just a few hours they got a piece of his body, flew it to some medical center and had it verified? And all in time to quickly bury his body at sea?

I'm sorry. I don't buy it at all. I've said before, I firmly believe Bin Laden was killed way back when the war started. The guy was an absolute media hound, and he flaunted in our face that we couldn't catch him. And over the last 9 years all we've had are radio messages from him - nothing on TV. Nothing that could confirm it was him.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not. I laugh at the people who claim 9/11 was a hoax, or that we never walked on the moon, etc, etc. But this is a joke. And we are all the punch line.

In the end it doesn't really matter because the bottom line is that this murderer was indeed killed, but trust me, over the next decades there will be a ton written on when and how Osama was really killed.

You need to suspend your disbelief for a little while. The SEALS on the raid and maybe the CIA operatives will be given every medal that Congress and the Pentagon can think of. There will be beaucoup details emerging, including grisly photos (spare me, please) and eyewitness accounts, all with the blessing of the government. The participants will be interviewed countless times over the coming years and will write many books.

No hoax about killing Osama could possibly be kept secret. Be patient.

Dropping the body at sea was well-thought out, to provide for early burial as Muslims require and to avoid there being an Osama shrine somewhere and even to avoid the discussion of what to do with the body.

Burial at sea is no problem for the U.S. military, and at least it gave the AF a role in the operation. The lab work was surely springloaded and will be vouched for, I expect, by the Armed Forces Institute of Pathology. And don't tell me those guys would falsify results.

Sorry for your denial, but I don't agree with you at all.

sagegrouse

[El_Diablo]

Good grief.


No body. Immediatly buried at sea, even though the closest sea is 900 miles away. So now there is no way to identify this body for sure.

Here are the reasons for the burial at sea: http://newsfeed.time.com/2011/05/02/why-was-bin-laden-buried-at-sea-so-quickly/?hpt=C2

And even if they buried him on land somewhere, what are you gonna do, dig the body up yourself? Are you really that cynical that you need independent verification?


No survivors of the raid. Nobody to verify anything.

There were several survivors--the Navy SEALs who executed the mission. I'm sure you will hear more of the story eventually, and your paranoia will be placated. But if you think they're lying about it as part of some vast cover-up, then I'm not sure why you think having an "enemy survivor" would mollify your suspicions. After all, if they'd go this far to fake it, couldn't they also plant a couple phony terrorists to corroborate it?


Compound then burned. Thus no way to verify anything.

Where exactly did you hear this? The BBC has been showing video of the compound...did they have it in advance of the raid? Or is it fake footage? Or are you just jumping to conclusions and/or relying on bad sources? It's hard to tell.


I'm sorry. I don't buy it at all. I've said before, I firmly believe Bin Laden was killed way back when the war started. The guy was an absolute media hound, and he flaunted in our face that we couldn't catch him. And over the last 9 years all we've had are radio messages from him - nothing on TV. Nothing that could confirm it was him.

Messages were released for years, referencing specific events in the interim. And yes, even videos. For example, on the eve of the 2004 election, he released a VIDEO and referenced both Bush and Kerry. Now please explain to me how he knew it would be Kerry in 2004 before he was killed in Tora Bora in 2001.

You see how quickly this conspiracy theory unravels?


I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not. I laugh at the people who claim 9/11 was a hoax, or that we never walked on the moon, etc, etc.

So I'm sure you can understand if people are laughing at you now. ;)

[Mike Corey]

Unbelievable. Not the news, but that nobody is questioning it.

The most wanted man in the history of the U.S.....and we kill him....and then immediately bury him at sea. No photos of the body. No bringing him back to the U.S.?

I'm sorry, but this smacks of a massive conspiracy. Let's look at the facts:

1) No body. Immediatly buried at sea, even though the closest sea is 900 miles away. So now there is no way to identify this body for sure. They said they didn't want to bury him on land to create a shrine. WTF? Bury him on U.S. soil in a military compound where nobody can get to it.

2) No survivors of the raid. Nobody to verify anything.

3) Compound then burned. Thus no way to verify anything.

4) DNA proven. Seriously? In just a few hours they got a piece of his body, flew it to some medical center and had it verified? And all in time to quickly bury his body at sea?

I'm sorry. I don't buy it at all. I've said before, I firmly believe Bin Laden was killed way back when the war started. The guy was an absolute media hound, and he flaunted in our face that we couldn't catch him. And over the last 9 years all we've had are radio messages from him - nothing on TV. Nothing that could confirm it was him.
Osama bin Laden was killed yesterday. The War on Terror continues. No more of this silliness, please.

Regardless, there are photographs that are to be released soon to placate conspiracy theorists like you.

[El_Diablo]

ABC News has posted footage of the interior the compound:

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/inside-operation-brought-osama-bin-laden/story?id=13506413

[duke74]

I am pretty conflicted by the above. I think OBL was a horrible horrible man, and deserved to die. However, I don't think that celebrating death is a good thing. We found him, we killed him. Mission accomplished. I know there are huge gaping wounds left after 9/11, and a lot of people may find this news and subsequent celebration cathartic. However, just as I despise videos of, for example, Palestinians dancing and celebrating death and destruction in Israel, I have a similar feeling towards dancing and celebrating this death.

Sorry, I respectfully disagree...to me, there is no moral equivalence at all between the two scenarios. This DOES warrant celebrating. Celebrating in Gaza the death of children and civilians is not the same thing. Nor was the celebrating there in September 2011.

Time now to move on, protect the country and our citizens, and progress the efforts to rid the world of "men" (and women) like UBL.

[DukieInKansas]

As Mark Twain once said, "I have never wished a man dead, but I have read some obituaries with great pleasure."

[77devil]

Unbelievable. Not the news, but that nobody is questioning it.

The most wanted man in the history of the U.S.....and we kill him....and then immediately bury him at sea. No photos of the body. No bringing him back to the U.S.?

I'm sorry, but this smacks of a massive conspiracy. Let's look at the facts:

1) No body. Immediatly buried at sea, even though the closest sea is 900 miles away. So now there is no way to identify this body for sure. They said they didn't want to bury him on land to create a shrine. WTF? Bury him on U.S. soil in a military compound where nobody can get to it.

2) No survivors of the raid. Nobody to verify anything.

3) Compound then burned. Thus no way to verify anything.

4) DNA proven. Seriously? In just a few hours they got a piece of his body, flew it to some medical center and had it verified? And all in time to quickly bury his body at sea?

I'm sorry. I don't buy it at all. I've said before, I firmly believe Bin Laden was killed way back when the war started. The guy was an absolute media hound, and he flaunted in our face that we couldn't catch him. And over the last 9 years all we've had are radio messages from him - nothing on TV. Nothing that could confirm it was him.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist. I'm not. I laugh at the people who claim 9/11 was a hoax, or that we never walked on the moon, etc, etc. But this is a joke. And we are all the punch line.

In the end it doesn't really matter because the bottom line is that this murderer was indeed killed, but trust me, over the next decades there will be a ton written on when and how Osama was really killed.

Tongue firmly in cheek, right? As the story advances there will be plenty of evidence released including pictures.

[BD80]

With Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari and PM Yousaf Raza Gillani by Gates and Clinton and with Army commander Ashfan Pervez Kayani by Adm. Mullen.

Subject: Osama lived for years only forty miles from Islamabad and in a compound near one of Pakistan's main military academies and only a few hundred yards from Pakistan Army units.

How is it possible that the location of Osama was not known to the Army and the ISI? And if it was known, why was this "problem" for Pakistan and America not eliminated by the Pakistanis? "And General," asks Adm. Mullen, "perhaps you can answer why the United States has given nearly $12 billion in military aid to Pakistan as part of the War on Terror if not to eliminate Osama?"

sagegrouse

I found it interesting that the entire operation was conducted WITHOUT cooperation of Pakistan. Due to the problems with one helicopter and bringing in a back-up, there was a concern when the operation lasted long enough for the Pakistanis to notice the activity and scramble fighters. We obviously concluded that coordinating operations with the Pakistanis resulted in information leaked to bin ladin.

I don't believe the government owes us full explanations or disclosures. I still believe that Flight 93 was shot down by friendly fire over an area least likely to increase collateral damage - it was the only way to neutralize the threat once the terrorists had control of the plane - and the correct decision. Making the passengers the heroes is a nice, feel-good story, but highly unlikely.

The fact that bin laden escaped US special ops for 10 years speaks volumes about the level of the anti-US sentiment throughout the world.

[roywhite]

Tongue firmly in cheek, right? As the story advances there will be plenty of evidence released including pictures.

Exactly. Here's info on the DNA matching

http://www.thedailybeast.com/cheat-sheet/item/bin-ladens-body-identified-by-dna/autopsy/#

[DevilOfATime]

CNN is now reporting DNA is a match to Bin Laden. GO USA AND GOD BLESS AMERICA~. It has been a long time coming. Last night I cried and cheered when the news broke. It was happy tears that our great Navy seals caught him and took him out

http://www.cnn.com/

[DevilOfATime]

I could not have been happier for a person to die like I am right now that he is dead. I was cheering when I heard the news breaking last night. Thank you to our Navy Seals that caught him and killed him. It won't bring back the victims families that he destroyed in 9-11 or back in 1993. But I hope it will bring some kind of closure to them. My prayers and thoughts are with the families and still is today and will always be. God Bless America.

[duke74]

I could not have been happier for a person to die like I am right now that he is dead. I was cheering when I heard the news breaking last night. Thank you to our Navy Seals that caught him and killed him. It won't bring back the victims families that he destroyed in 9-11 or back in 1993. But I hope it will bring some kind of closure to them. My prayers and thoughts are with the families and still is today and will always be. God Bless America.

Ditto...and don't forget the Cole, Kenya and Tanzania....

[roywhite]

Some details of the operation and the unit that carried it out.

http://mobile.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden-20110502

[BD80]

Some details of the operation and the unit that carried it out.

http://mobile.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden-20110502

Now THAT is a new NCIS spin-off that I wotld watch!

[sagegrouse]

I found it interesting that the entire operation was conducted WITHOUT cooperation of Pakistan. Due to the problems with one helicopter and bringing in a back-up, there was a concern when the operation lasted long enough for the Pakistanis to notice the activity and scramble fighters. We obviously concluded that coordinating operations with the Pakistanis resulted in information leaked to bin ladin.

It is tempting to make much of the fact that we didn't alert the Pakistanis. Remember that we also didn't tell the Congress. I expect this was very close-hold.


I don't believe the government owes us full explanations or disclosures. I still believe that Flight 93 was shot down by friendly fire over an area least likely to increase collateral damage - it was the only way to neutralize the threat once the terrorists had control of the plane - and the correct decision. Making the passengers the heroes is a nice, feel-good story, but highly unlikely.

So you think the Bush Administration, the U.S. military and the 9/11 Commission all lied to the American people? I don't. And exactly how would such a lie be protected when many, many people would have known about it? I can't even imagine that such a falsehood would even be considered.


The fact that bin laden escaped US special ops for 10 years speaks volumes about the level of the anti-US sentiment throughout the world.

You may think that Obama was protected by supporters in the Arab and Islamic world. I am am more cyncial: governments in that region would have been happy to get rid of that millstone both to placate the U.S. and to protect themselves. Pakistan, however, still has a lot of questions to answer.

sagegrouse

[SuperTurkey]

You may think that Obama was protected by supporters in the Arab and Islamic world. I am am more cyncial: governments in that region would have been happy to get rid of that millstone both to placate the U.S. and to protect themselves. Pakistan, however, still has a lot of questions to answer.

Trust me, you're probably the millionth person to make that mistake today. ;)

[Vincetaylor]

With Pakistani President Asif Ali Zardari and PM Yousaf Raza Gillani by Gates and Clinton and with Army commander Ashfan Pervez Kayani by Adm. Mullen.

Subject: Osama lived for years only forty miles from Islamabad and in a compound near one of Pakistan's main military academies and only a few hundred yards from Pakistan Army units.

How is it possible that the location of Osama was not known to the Army and the ISI? And if it was known, why was this "problem" for Pakistan and America not eliminated by the Pakistanis? "And General," asks Adm. Mullen, "perhaps you can answer why the United States has given nearly $12 billion in military aid to Pakistan as part of the War on Terror if not to eliminate Osama?"

sagegrouse

The "War on Terror" has been a very profitable venture for Pakistan. As long as they play along and act like they are trying to help the U.S. root out Al Qaeda and the Taliban, the funds will continue to flow their way. Keeping Bin Laden alive not only appeased the extremists in Pakistan, but it also guaranteed that the "War on Terror" would continue and that billions in cash would continue to come. Now that Bin Laden is dead, the U.S. will have less political support at home to continue its presence in Pakistan and it will be less inclined to give them money.

[sagegrouse]

You may think that Obama [ No, no, no! I meant Osama bin Ladin.] was protected by supporters in the Arab and Islamic world. I am am more cyncial: governments in that region would have been happy to get rid of that millstone both to placate the U.S. and to protect themselves. Pakistan, however, still has a lot of questions to answer.

sagegrouse

Thanks SuperTurkey for catching the mistake.

sagegrouse

[ncexnyc]

I've seen words used in various articles and responses such as mission accomplished, and closure. My response is, "Really?"
While the man may be dead, his legacy of death and misery continues to grow everyday. We still have troops stationed in both Iraq and Afghanistan and every time one of them is killed Bin-Laden will have played a part in it. Every time a civilian in one of those countries dies Bin-Laden will have played a part in it.
Then there is the issue of our precious resources which are being diverted away from our people and channeled into the prosecution of these conflicts.
Yes, the man is dead, but his evil will live on for many, many years.

[Udaman]

Hey all - I guess I should have written that part of the story seems fishy to me. It is a conspiracy theory....and as more information comes out, it certainly looks like what they say happened really did. For some reason I just woke up in a weird mood, I guess, and the story seemed too good to be true.

If what they are saying did indeed transpire, it's a great day for freedom in the world, and a major testament to the skill of our men and women in the military.

[JasonEvans]

I am pretty conflicted by the above. I think OBL was a horrible horrible man, and deserved to die. However, I don't think that celebrating death is a good thing. We found him, we killed him. Mission accomplished. I know there are huge gaping wounds left after 9/11, and a lot of people may find this news and subsequent celebration cathartic. However, just as I despise videos of, for example, Palestinians dancing and celebrating death and destruction in Israel, I have a similar feeling towards dancing and celebrating this death.

I hear you and, in retrospect, my choice of words was perhaps poor.

I am somewhat conflicted here.

A piece of me wants to believe that no person is beyond redemption -- that anyone has within them the capability to see a different perspective and change their mind. history is full of examples. Think of how powerful it could have been if, somehow, we managed to convince Osama that terror and violence were not the best ways to get his views heard.

But, another piece of me feels some people and some crimes are impossible to tolerate. Why should we not celebrate the death of a man who brought death and injury and sadness to tens of thousands of people? Isn't the world a better place today with him gone -- if you could go back and kill him before he committed his crimes, wouldn't you do so? Isn't he one of those folks like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and a few others who brought so much death and ruin upon the world that we should wish they never existed?

Like I said, I am conflicted.

But, I think I have found a solution! I should not have said we were celebrating his death... what we were celebrating was a sense that justice had finally come to the victims of 9-11 and other Al-Qaeda crimes. We were celebrating a feeling that the people who had brought terror and death so close to home had suffered a crushing defeat. We were celebrating a feeling of some relief that someone who had threatened us over and over again would never threaten us again.

We do not celebrate his death-- we do celebrate an end to what his life represented.

Does that work better?

--Jason "by the way, when I say, 'an end' I know that Al Qaeda is not gone and terrorism is not dead -- we must remain vigilant and continue to work to educate the world that we can all live together" Evans

[JasonEvans]

Trust me, you're probably the millionth person to make that mistake today. ;)

Several TV stations have made the mistake (http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/05/02/fox_reaction/nbc12.jpg) today -- interestingly, all of them appear to be Fox affiliates. Hmmmm.

My favorite is this local anchor from the Fox Affiliate in New York who says... well, listen for yourself...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMP7Ys57ha4

Ooops!

-Jason "it is an easy mistake to make and I don't think there is a Fox conspiracy at play here" Evans

[duke74]

I hear you and, in retrospect, my choice of words was perhaps poor.

I am somewhat conflicted here.

A piece of me wants to believe that no person is beyond redemption -- that anyone has within them the capability to see a different perspective and change their mind. history is full of examples. Think of how powerful it could have been if, somehow, we managed to convince Osama that terror and violence were not the best ways to get his views heard.

But, another piece of me feels some people and some crimes are impossible to tolerate. Why should we not celebrate the death of a man who brought death and injury and sadness to tens of thousands of people? Isn't the world a better place today with him gone -- if you could go back and kill him before he committed his crimes, wouldn't you do so? Isn't he one of those folks like Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, and a few others who brought so much death and ruin upon the world that we should wish they never existed?

Like I said, I am conflicted.

But, I think I have found a solution! I should not have said we were celebrating his death... what we were celebrating was a sense that justice had finally come to the victims of 9-11 and other Al-Qaeda crimes. We were celebrating a feeling that the people who had brought terror and death so close to home had suffered a crushing defeat. We were celebrating a feeling of some relief that someone who had threatened us over and over again would never threaten us again.

We do not celebrate his death-- we do celebrate an end to what his life represented.

Does that work better?

--Jason "by the way, when I say, 'an end' I know that Al Qaeda is not gone and terrorism is not dead -- we must remain vigilant and continue to work to educate the world that we can all live together" Evans

Jason, I'm sorry, but I for one celebrate his death - with unabashed joy...all the while recognizing that there is much to be done and his death may not change a thing about the threat - especially if you believe the AQ "franchising theory" vs. AQ "Central". We may have just killed the icon -- the "head" of the fish -- but the rest of the body may in fact live on.

[BD80]

... So you think the Bush Administration, the U.S. military and the 9/11 Commission all lied to the American people? I don't. And exactly how would such a lie be protected when many, many people would have known about it? I can't even imagine that such a falsehood would even be considered. ...sagegrouse

Yes. The commission "concluded" the flight had crashed before the military even "learned" of it. Flight 93 crashed after 10:00 AM, the first 2 flights hit the Trade Towers at 8:45 and 9:00 (the second crash made it clear there was an attack), and the Capitol was hit at 9:30. Right about 9:30 the flight 93 pilots broadcast "mayday" as the hijacking took place. I'd rather believe our military was not so incompetent that it could not address a security risk over Youngstown Ohio within 30 minutes - I think it is clear the military is more concerned with secrecy (and effectiveness) than with the appearance of competency. If the miltary did know of flight 93 before it crashed, then the commission lied.

NORAD did claim that Flight 93 was being tracked and was to be shot down if DC was threatened. The commission disagreed with this claim. Somebody is lying. Cheney and Bush refused to testify under oath - 'nuff said.

Frankly, very few people would really "know" if the flight was shot down - and I am certain those individuals could be entrusted with the secret.

There are a lot of guys doing jobs for our country for which they will unfortunately never be thanked. It is only because OBL was a high vaue target that this operation will get attention. Good job guys.

[A-Tex Devil]

This guy (http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2011/05/02/from-abbottabad-live-tweeting-the-bin-laden-attack/?mod=google_news_blog), who appears to be a developer or IT guy working out of Abottabad, accidentally live-blogged the whole thing last night. He had enough followers that it's since gone viral.

He mentioned a helicopter crash. Did we ever find out exactly what happened with the one helicopter we didn't get back? Was it shot down/shot at while on ground or mechanical failure?

[weezie]

I just keep marveling at the steel-willed courage of the special ops guys. What incredible odds and the very soul of bravery.
We see the Seals training on the beach in Virginia: 10 mile sand runs in boots and packs and a 10 mile swim back against the current with those boots around their necks and packs still on their backs, no matter what the weather.
So proud of these young men!!!

[sagegrouse]

This guy (http://blogs.wsj.com/indiarealtime/2011/05/02/from-abbottabad-live-tweeting-the-bin-laden-attack/?mod=google_news_blog), who appears to be a developer or IT guy working out of Abottabad, accidentally live-blogged the whole thing last night. He had enough followers that it's since gone viral.

He mentioned a helicopter crash. Did we ever find out exactly what happened with the one helicopter we didn't get back? Was it shot down/shot at while on ground or mechanical failure?

As I understand it. there was no helicopter crash, or even a malfunction. The helicopters were supposed to hover over the compound for the duration of the ground mission. Because of the high walls around the compound (12-18 feet), this created a vacuum below and a loss of lift for one of the birds, resulting in a chopper landing rather than hovering. Apparently, there was concern that this chopper could not take off, so a substitute in the area was brought in to take the troops and captives back. The remaining helicopter was destroyed as a matter of precaution (God knows what it was carrying from a weapons and equipment perspective).

sagegrouse

[wilson]

Apropos of Jason Evans' and others' conflicting emotions regarding the celebration of Osama's death, celebrity Rabbi Shmuley Boteach has offered this (http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rabbi-shmuley-boteach/hate-osama-but-do-not-rej_b_856130.html?ref=fb&src=sp) very interesting take from a Jewish theological perspective.

And here (http://www.flickr.com/photos/whitehouse/sets/72157626507626189/) is a very cool (in my opinion) flickr album of shots from inside the White House situation room during the raid on Sunday.

[BD80]

I find it interesting that the intel that led to the raid was developed after years of interrogating detainees at Guantanamo.

[wilson]

I find it interesting that the intel that led to the raid was developed after years of interrogating detainees at Guantanamo....and in some of the infamous CIA "secret prisons" in Romania, Poland, and elsewhere.

[Mike Corey]

I find it interesting that the intel that led to the raid was developed after years of interrogating detainees at Guantanamo.

The name of the courier seems to have become known to the U.S. thanks to information gleaned from Sheikh Mohammed, yes.

This is perhaps (among the reasons) why the Obama Administration reversed course on wanting to close Gitmo.

[blueduke59]

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4sl8cdfpwGs/Tb4imlnREEI/AAAAAAAAAL0/lDM9r4rUwJk/s400/230534_1851141011802_1639050794_31876609_6335626_n .jpg

[CameronBlue]

Then there is the issue of our precious resources which are being diverted away from our people and channeled into the prosecution of these conflicts.
Yes, the man is dead, but his evil will live on for many, many years.

The fact that civilian contractors outnumber military personnel in both Iraq and Afghanistan by wide margins supports your contention that victory over "evil" will be long in coming.

[CameronBlue]

It’s good that this thug is no longer spreading misery that afflicted the lives of so many people around the world. Like others have expressed in this thread I'm conflicted as well. But I won’t begrudge anyone’s right to dance in the streets if that’s what they want to do. It’s not my cup of tea but then no one close to me died on 9/11. I just don't express my patriotism by dancing on the graves of my country's enemies however much they deserve it.

Some pundit in the foreign press will castigate America for this action by arguing moral relativism and blaming America for its misguided military adventurism or rather misguided political adventurism backed by the power of the military. OBL's war against the West was not a just war against a murderous and corrupt oppressor. He murdered innocents without cause. He had no consistent philosophy and manipulated and violated the tenants of Islam to which he supposedly adhered, killing Westerners and fellow Islamists alike without discrimination. He was one in a long line of bloodthirsty mutants that the human gene pool spits out from time to time. On this day, while China and India develop evermore powerful economies, I am reminded that warfare is one of the things that America does best, blow stuff up and kill people. So I am conflicted and exceedingly sad that my country so frequently compels its citizens to fight, kill and die in its name. But America has rightfully sat in judgment of Osama Bin Laden. Death suits him.

[Poincaré]

Jason Evans said that he unlocked this thread so that we could all "celebrate" this event together. Why must the celebration be on the Internet? Why must DBR be an outlet for the celebrations? Aren't there enough? Apparently Twitter exploded last night. So anyone with a Twitter account had an outlet. Can't we talk to our family and friends? Can't we celebrate in private? Can't we celebrate by throwing a party, and also stimulate the economy in the process with our consumption of cakes and candles? For those of us who believe that his death, while appropriate, is nothing to be happy about, can't we contemplate the event elsewhere?

Better yet, we have a public policy board here on DBR where such non-sports topics are aggregated. Can't we celebrate there?

I raise these questions because this discussion is taking subtle turn toward the political, and by the time it turns into an open flame war, it will be too late.

The division of the boards serves a good purpose after all. To introduce discretionary subversion of that division on the part of the moderators sets a bad precedent for the future. We might like how the moderators exercise this discretion today. Will we like it tomorrow?

If the goal was to let people know that Osama had been killed, the front page did that job (as did the rest of the Internet).

Let's move this back to the PPB.

I won't insist upon the point. It is just a suggestion, but please consider it.

Thank you.


Sincerely,

DBR reader, just a lemma

[Newton_14]

Justice is served. That is the main thing for me. I am glad that OBL paid the ultimate price for killing thousands of innocent people over the years. The memories of the people jumping from the WTC to avoid the unbearable heat from the fires that day, is something that I will never forget seeing. They as did the others that died that day, deserve justice, may they rest in peace.

I applaud the soldiers who performed their jobs flawlessly and professionaly last night in getting this job done without suffering any casualties on our side. Losing one helicopter was a small price to pay. They deserve the medals that will be coming their way.

[SuperTurkey]

Better yet, we have a public policy board here on DBR where such non-sports topics are aggregated. Can't we celebrate there?

Let's move this back to the PPB.

DBR hasn't had a PPB for 2 or 3 years.

[superdave]

Ambinder for National Journal (http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden-20110502?print=true)

Scahill for The Nation
(http://www.thenation.com/blog/160332/jsoc-black-ops-force-took-down-bin-laden)

I also highly recommend Jake Tapper's blog posts today for ABC (http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/).

These guys understand the group and the culture that enabled all this to happen. Good stuff.

[sagegrouse]

It’s good that this thug is no longer spreading misery that afflicted the lives of so many people around the world. Like others have expressed in this thread I'm conflicted as well. But I won’t begrudge anyone’s right to dance in the streets if that’s what they want to do. It’s not my cup of tea but then no one close to me died on 9/11. I just don't express my patriotism by dancing on the graves of my country's enemies however much they deserve it.


Random thoughts (no surprise in that):



Being "glad we caught him" is not the same IMHO as "dancing on the graves."

He was the leader and most important perpetrator of the deadliest attack against Americans within US borders.

It has been ten years since the 9/11 attack, and that is far too long to be chasing the perpetrator. We have had a concerted effort to find the guy, especially recently, the dimensions of which are just now being understood. Failure to capture Bin Laden has given comfort and encouragement to our enemies in the radical Muslim world and elsewhere. This is the end of the story thread, if not the end of the story.

The story that is just beginning is the protection of Bin Laden by various elements in Pakistan, and not just the local prefect chief, who was certainly paid off to allow the compound to be built and not divulge it. Hey, Mother Teresa could not have built that structure without a payoff.

The order was made, I believe, to kill him not capture him. War is bloodthirsty and people die. Although I see how some people can disagree with the order to kill, but as George Orwell, wrote, "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."

We shall soon learn how Osama died. I expect the answer will be, hiding under a bed on the third floor of his residence. Clearly the animated graphics are totally false, but we will get the full story.


I know a lot of SEALS. And I am happy they are on our side.

sagegrouse

[Poincaré]

DBR hasn't had a PPB for 2 or 3 years.

You know what I mean. The off-topic board...

[JasonEvans]

Lemma (and anyone else wondering about this thread)--

While this did start on the Off-topic board (which bears no resemblance at all to the now defunct Public Policy Board, once there were headlines about this story on the DBR front-page, it became EK Board material. The rule has always been, if DBR writes about it, it goes on the EK Board.

I also want to say that, aside from one post that had some material redacted, folks have behaved well within the bounds of what is an acceptable post on the DBR. Our community has, so far, shown great restraint in keeping this discussion away from partisan bickering.

Lastly, you seem to be wondering why we would want to discuss or "celebrate" this here instead of with our families/friends/whatever. I don't see the desire to discuss it as a substitute for us wanting to celebrate with others. I have talked about this with just about everyone in my life today -- and that includes the many folks in the DBR community who are a part of my life.

While most of us only know each other by our handles and avatars, it is not at all a stretch to say that there is a strong sense of community here, especially among those of us who have been around a while and post often. I feel a kinship with dozens of DBR posters -- many of whom have commented in this thread. When I come up to Durham to see a game, I contact many of these people and we get together for a drink or a hug/handshake. I share news and events with them as I do with many friends.

I did not even hesitate for a moment when I heard this news last night. I ran to the DBR to see what folks were saying. I am sure I was not alone in that reaction.

If many people want me to move this back to the OffT board, I can. No big deal. But to question whether or not it belongs on the DBR -- that's just silly.

-Jason "thanks for humoring me as I wax nostalgic about my relationship with this place" Evans

[JasonEvans]

I know a lot of SEALS. And I am happy they are on our side.

A-men, brotha!

http://sale.images.woot.com/Navy_Seals1f7Detail.png

-Jason " ;) " Evans

[Bluedog]

Maryland students celebrated with a riot and burning stuff. Shocking I know...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JnpDHNK8XR0&feature=player_embedded

At least we now know it's not just when they beat Duke.


How college campuses reacted to Osama bin Laden’s death (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/How-college-campuses-reacted-to-Osama-Bin-Laden-?urn=ncaab-wp2526)

[1999ballboy]

I firmly believe Bin Laden was killed way back when the war started.

If our top government officials knew he was dead for 7 or 8 years, then how, in any way, would it have been considered good for America to keep that a secret? There just isn't any conceivable motive for that kind of conspiracy.


The guy was an absolute media hound, and he flaunted in our face that we couldn't catch him. And over the last 9 years all we've had are radio messages from him - nothing on TV. Nothing that could confirm it was him.
Maybe because he didn't want us to find him?


over the next decades there will be a ton written on when and how Osama was really killed.
A lot is written about a lot of things. I think Hilary Duff wrote a book last year.

[Poincaré]

Lemma (and anyone else wondering about this thread)--

While this did start on the Off-topic board (which bears no resemblance at all to the now defunct Public Policy Board, once there were headlines about this story on the DBR front-page, it became EK Board material. The rule has always been, if DBR writes about it, it goes on the EK Board.

I also want to say that, aside from one post that had some material redacted, folks have behaved well within the bounds of what is an acceptable post on the DBR. Our community has, so far, shown great restraint in keeping this discussion away from partisan bickering.

Lastly, you seem to be wondering why we would want to discuss or "celebrate" this here instead of with our families/friends/whatever. I don't see the desire to discuss it as a substitute for us wanting to celebrate with others. I have talked about this with just about everyone in my life today -- and that includes the many folks in the DBR community who are a part of my life.

While most of us only know each other by our handles and avatars, it is not at all a stretch to say that there is a strong sense of community here, especially among those of us who have been around a while and post often. I feel a kinship with dozens of DBR posters -- many of whom have commented in this thread. When I come up to Durham to see a game, I contact many of these people and we get together for a drink or a hug/handshake. I share news and events with them as I do with many friends.

I did not even hesitate for a moment when I heard this news last night. I ran to the DBR to see what folks were saying. I am sure I was not alone in that reaction.

If many people want me to move this back to the OffT board, I can. No big deal. But to question whether or not it belongs on the DBR -- that's just silly.

-Jason "thanks for humoring me as I wax nostalgic about my relationship with this place" Evans

Well, if the rules say that once DBR mentions it, it can be on the main board, who am I to disagree?

That said, my original points on there being no need to celebrate on the main board stand as they are. You cannot be serious in claiming that people cannot be bothered to click once to get to the off-topic board for their Osama-related conversations...or that it would some how greatly detract from the collective joy to have it on the off-topic board. Also, unless the thread started on the main board, I don't see there being an explicit mandate to move it to the main board because it appeared on the front page. I am really just quibbling on that last point though.

Like I said, I was only making a suggestion. Now that you have corrected my ignorance of the rules, I feel like my pre-knowledge of the rule would have stopped me from posting in the first place. My opinion is now not strong enough to merit a written protest.

Carry on.

Also, thanks for your explanation. I appreciated your clarity on the matter.

[turnandburn55]

I'd like a moderator to compare and contrast

1- Infractions imposed upon a poster for accusing a basketball player of being disloyal to the Duke program

2- Infractions imposed upon a poster for accusing a US Military servicemember in Afghanistan/Pakistan of lying about conducting an operation to kill Osama bin Laden.

That is all, thank you :)

[Johnboy]

Ambinder for National Journal (http://www.nationaljournal.com/whitehouse/the-secret-team-that-killed-bin-laden-20110502?print=true)

Scahill for The Nation
(http://www.thenation.com/blog/160332/jsoc-black-ops-force-took-down-bin-laden)



Thanks for those links. I am really glad we have JSOC on our side. If these articles are even close to describing their capabilities, they are incredibly good at what they do, and what they do best is find and kill America's enemies. Very interesting articles.

[hedevil]

Congratulations to the Navy Seals that carried out this operation in such a professional, pinpoint manner as well as our president for having the patience and judgment to give the order to go ahead, knowing and understanding the political and possible human risks had this operation gone sour. Congratultions to those in the know who were so professional and mum in the lead up to this operation. I am so grateful to the men and women in our armed forces (such as my baby brother, cousin, brother-in-law, and countless friends) who protect our country and freedom everyday.

[Mike Corey]

This story in the Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?hp) provides a great amount of detail about how the intelligence was gathered--the big break seems to have come in July 2010 when the courier's license plate was written down and his car was tracked to bin Laden's compound--and about how the mission went down Sunday.

As to the "celebration of a death," the best explanation of the euphoric response I've heard has been that this amounts to my generation's equivalent of VJ Day.

9/11 was a seminal moment for many people in this country no matter their generation, but was uniquely so for a generation that had been fortunate enough to not really know anything of war until that day came and went. And unlike the other wars our collective memory can recall--WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf--this war had a single face from the start, that face of course being bin Laden's. His demise was a stated goal from the outset, from our then-president on down; it having happened, in my opinion, resulted in a celebration not of death, or of a single death, but of retribution.

Granted, that may be mere quibbling. But in a war where there has never been any hope of a treaty being signed to end the conflict--and indeed, where there is no indication that any single event may end the conflict--this is perhaps as close as we've gotten to a victory thus far. It certainly felt like a victory to me. And I don't think there's anything wrong with celebrating the collective effort and sacrifice that led to that victory either.

Discussing the wisdom with which all of that effort has been directed is not for this board, and is a separate matter altogether. But for an evening, at least, there was an opportunity to celebrate an achievement that, ultimately, may have been more symbolic in importance than of practical gain. Either way, those out there lamenting the reaction (http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/05/02/osama_and_chants_of_usa) as being indicative of bin Laden's ultimate victory of having changed our society into one that "finds orgasmic euphoria in news of bloodshed" are being rather unfair, in my opinion. This was not a celebration of bloodshed; that is too superficial a take.

[blazindw]

I said this on Facebook and I'll say it here: it was just as appropriate to celebrate bin Laden's demise as it was appropriate to reflect quietly on the magnitude of the moment. Your natural reaction to this news was absolutely correct. Who are we to tell 9/11 first responders celebrating at Ground Zero Sunday night that they were wrong to celebrate someone's death, even an enemy? Who are we to tell the children who lost someone in the towers or the Pentagon or Flight 93 that they can't exult that the man who orchestrated that attack was brought to ultimate justice? I knew someone lost in the towers and my dad left the Pentagon just prior to the attack (He was at the Capitol and was next headed to the White House when the Pentagon was struck, 2 rumored targets in itself). I wasn't wrong to be glad that bin Laden was dead, to want to scream in unison with a couple thousand at the White House Sunday night. Nor was it wrong for me to do what I eventually did, which is let the historic moment sink in and reflect on the world that demon forced us into post-9/11. The face of the War on Terror was terminated, yet we all know that this isn't the end. But, the most visible battle, the one that had weighed us down as a nation for ten years and cost us thousands of soldiers' lives, was finally won. Hopefully the soldiers feel that their sacrifice was worth it...and judging from the reaction of my friend who's in Afghanistan and told the sentiment of everyone he knew there, they were pumped to cross that primary objective off the big checklist. That is a cause for celebration in however form you feel is appropriate.

[DUKIECB]

This story in the Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?hp) provides a great amount of detail about how the intelligence was gathered--the big break seems to have come in July 2010 when the courier's license plate was written down and his car was tracked to bin Laden's compound--and about how the mission went down Sunday.

That was an amazingly detailed article! I felt like I was reading a Hollywood script. What must it have been like in that situation room? Can you say TENSE!

It just goes to show what extraordinary measures have to be taken to accomplish something like this. The amount of man power and hours put in to pull something like this off is truly staggering.

[wilson]

It certainly felt like a victory to me. And I don't think there's anything wrong with celebrating the collective effort and sacrifice that led to that victory either.Excellent post, Mike. I'd like to especially agree with the above-quoted text, and to add that the celebrations are also born out of the current national mood. The wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, which have felt an awful lot like quagmires for the better part of a decade, have finally produced at the very least, a huge moral victory. People are unemployed and pessimism about the economy and the nation's future abounds. Our political culture is fractured and contentious. We've spent the past couple of years often bickering over inconsequential things, many wondering if the United States was in decline.
Then, all of a sudden comes a moment that every American can unequivocally regard as good news, and yes, celebrate together. The last time our entire nation rallied around a single event and expressed a unified, apolitical statement, it was the most profound tragedy in America in decades, the very largest one of many Americans' lives. Now that tragedy is bookended with a positive event...if you want to be blunt, call it an "excuse" for Americans to rejoice a little bit.
I for one think we need that right now, and while celebrating a person's death is undeniably a bit crass, Osama bin Laden was one of the few people in all of history who best deserved such a sendoff. To me, though, it wasn't about Osama; it was about Americans enjoying the chance to celebrate something that finally, tangibly went right.

[Kfanarmy]

MODS;

why is this in the BB forum?

[SuperTurkey]

MODS;

why is this in the BB forum?

Not a mod, but the answer is that it was posted on DBR proper. By longstanding convention, that means it is fair game for the main board.

[roywhite]

Interesting piece by Fouad Ajami in the WSJ.

Osama Bin Laden, Weak Horse (http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704436004576299110143040714.html?m od=googlenews_wsj)


It was bin Laden's deserved fate to be struck down when an entirely different Arab world was struggling to be born. The Arab Spring is a repudiation of everything Osama bin Laden preached and stood for. If al Qaeda found an appropriate burial ground, the place must be Midan al-Tahrir, Liberation Square, in Cairo.

[duke79]

This story in the Times (http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/03/world/asia/03intel.html?hp) provides a great amount of detail about how the intelligence was gathered--the big break seems to have come in July 2010 when the courier's license plate was written down and his car was tracked to bin Laden's compound--and about how the mission went down Sunday.

As to the "celebration of a death," the best explanation of the euphoric response I've heard has been that this amounts to my generation's equivalent of VJ Day.

9/11 was a seminal moment for many people in this country no matter their generation, but was uniquely so for a generation that had been fortunate enough to not really know anything of war until that day came and went. And unlike the other wars our collective memory can recall--WWII, Korea, Vietnam, Persian Gulf--this war had a single face from the start, that face of course being bin Laden's. His demise was a stated goal from the outset, from our then-president on down; it having happened, in my opinion, resulted in a celebration not of death, or of a single death, but of retribution.

Granted, that may be mere quibbling. But in a war where there has never been any hope of a treaty being signed to end the conflict--and indeed, where there is no indication that any single event may end the conflict--this is perhaps as close as we've gotten to a victory thus far. It certainly felt like a victory to me. And I don't think there's anything wrong with celebrating the collective effort and sacrifice that led to that victory either.

Discussing the wisdom with which all of that effort has been directed is not for this board, and is a separate matter altogether. But for an evening, at least, there was an opportunity to celebrate an achievement that, ultimately, may have been more symbolic in importance than of practical gain. Either way, those out there lamenting the reaction (http://www.salon.com/news/politics/war_room/2011/05/02/osama_and_chants_of_usa) as being indicative of bin Laden's ultimate victory of having changed our society into one that "finds orgasmic euphoria in news of bloodshed" are being rather unfair, in my opinion. This was not a celebration of bloodshed; that is too superficial a take.

Thanks for the link. Very interesting story. Of course, there are already reports that we may not know the full story of how they tracked down Bin Laden. The speculation is that the CIA and the NSA and other intelligence agencies may not want to reveal the full story to protect sources in Pakistan and other intelligence gathering methods. I'm not sure we will ever know all the details behind this raid, but, I can only say, thank God for the professionalism, training, and bravery of those Navy seals. Obviously, many things could have gone wrong (and some did - the crash of one of the helicopters) - but overall quite a success.

[BD80]

I celebrate the military victory, but find the glee in the murder of obl a bit off-putting, in particular, Letterman's "Top Ten" list of obl"s last words, #1 "I need a houseful of Seals like I need a hole in the head." Our culture loses its moral "high ground" when we are so blithe about killing our enemies (including women).

[moonpie23]

That was an amazingly detailed article! I felt like I was reading a Hollywood script. What must it have been like in that situation room? Can you say TENSE!

but the movie won't be like some jack bauer/jason bourne guys getting it done.....byt the time it makes it through the hollywood wringers it will be harold and kumar on vacation and wind up trying to buy weed at the wrong house.

HAROLD AND KUMAR BUY WEED AT THE LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT.

[superdave]

but the movie won't be like some jack bauer/jason bourne guys getting it done.....byt the time it makes it through the hollywood wringers it will be harold and kumar on vacation and wind up trying to buy weed at the wrong house.

HAROLD AND KUMAR BUY WEED AT THE LAST HOUSE ON THE LEFT.

Kumar actually worked in the Obama Administration.

Kal Penn that is (http://culturalcapitol.com/2009/04/08/kumar-is-working-for-obama/).

I dont know anything about his basketball allegiances. I'm trying to stay on topic here...

[dukebluesincebirth]

I celebrate the military victory, but find the glee in the murder of obl a bit off-putting, in particular, Letterman's "Top Ten" list of obl"s last words, #1 "I need a houseful of Seals like I need a hole in the head." Our culture loses its moral "high ground" when we are so blithe about killing our enemies (including women).


I agree with your post. This is a military victory, but I can't celebrate killing. I heard a NYC firefighter on a cnn interview yesterday speaking about how you probably wouldn't find many family members of those lost in 9/11 celebrating. They may feel a sense of relief, but not celebration. Killing a man in Pakistan won't bring their loved ones back. I wish our world leaders could eventually realize that using war/killing as a means of settling disputes will never settle anything, only prolong it.

[Mike Corey]

I wish our world leaders could eventually realize that using war/killing as a means of settling disputes will never settle anything, only prolong it.

In sentiment, I agree with this. A proper response requires nuance that ventures into public policy. I'll try to avoid approaching the line.

The goal of this particular mission to retrieve bin Laden--"Geronimo"--was to retrieve him. There was, per reports, little expectation that bin Laden would be able to be taken alive, or without inflicting any casualties to others. However, it is clear that the Seals and those in charge of their mission took care to minimize the number of casualties as much as possible. That our Seals were able to accomplish that, particularly given the incredible difficulty of such a mission, is to their great credit, and to the credit of those who designed this mission.

The broader view--bin Laden as the terrorist who launched a 10-year War on Terror--has not been as surgical, even if the initial goal of finding bin Laden and those responsible for 9/11 was, at least superficially, identical to this specific mission. But the fact of the matter is that wars cannot be fought as precisely and intricately as individual missions.

Lastly, to the more philosophical point you've made, different world leaders have very different perspectives on when force is necessary. Some use it at the drop of a hat; some only when deemed absolutely necessary; some, never at all. Is force ever necessary? I suppose you would argue that it is not. I truly wish that were the case. The confluence of circumstances that would have to arise to eliminate the necessity of force in certain instances would require many variables that are often far too risky or far too unlikely, I'm afraid. But if your point is more directed at the War on Terror, then your point is a great one, but one that must (and has) coincided with force. Remember the necessity of "winning hearts and minds"? The arrival at policies that advance that successfully, without the occasional need of force (see: Iraq, and defense personnel defending the construction of infrastructure, schools, hospitals, homes, businesses, etc.), will hopefully rue the day.

Can that be reached without ever firing a bullet? Certainly. But the absolute policy seems, and has been, too good to be true.

[Reilly]

I ... find the glee in the murder of obl a bit off-putting....

One of the world's large religions had this to say: don't rejoice, but reflect on our own responsibilities ...

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/1101730.htm

Jesuit Father Federico Lombardi, the Vatican spokesman, released a brief written statement reacting to the news.

"Osama bin Laden, as we all know, bore the most serious responsibility for spreading divisions and hatred among populations, causing the deaths of innumerable people, and manipulating religions to this end," Father Lombardi said.

"In the face of a man's death, a Christian never rejoices, but reflects on the serious responsibilities of each person before God and before men, and hopes and works so that every event may be the occasion for the further growth of peace and not of hatred," the spokesman said

[Reilly]

This article was co-written by Craig Whitlock, former editor of The Chronicle. Includes a quote from a Duke professor:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/bin_ladens_secret_sea_burial_adds_to_the_mystery_o f_his_life/2011/05/02/AF4uEPZF_story.html?nav=emailpage

[Mike Corey]

This article was co-written by Craig Whitlock, former editor of The Chronicle. Includes a quote from a Duke professor:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/national/bin_ladens_secret_sea_burial_adds_to_the_mystery_o f_his_life/2011/05/02/AF4uEPZF_story.html?nav=emailpage

And another Chronicle editor, Ian Crouch of The New Yorker, on a forthcoming book about Seal Team 6. (http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/books/2011/05/seal-team-six.html)

[77devil]

Thanks for the link. Very interesting story. Of course, there are already reports that we may not know the full story of how they tracked down Bin Laden. The speculation is that the CIA and the NSA and other intelligence agencies may not want to reveal the full story to protect sources in Pakistan and other intelligence gathering methods. I'm not sure we will ever know all the details behind this raid, but, I can only say, thank God for the professionalism, training, and bravery of those Navy seals. Obviously, many things could have gone wrong (and some did - the crash of one of the helicopters) - but overall quite a success.

The full extent of the sources and methods used for tracking down bin Laden will not be made public for a long, long time, if ever, at least not intentionally-not even remotely close.


The goal of this particular mission to retrieve bin Laden--"Geronimo"--was to retrieve him.

Bin Laden's code name was Jackpot. Geronimo was the code word for a successful capture or kill. Notwithstanding the reports, I always will have serious doubt that retrieve was a real mission consideration. Obviously, I have no evidence, but deductive reasoning suggests, at least to me, that KIA was the primary if not sole objective. It brought swift justice and avoided a wrath of undesirable reactions to a drawn out spectacle of holding, prosecuting, and executing bin Laden. And in the retrieve scenario, what ultimately is done with the body to avoid enabling the creation of a shrine or otherwise precipitating an adverse response?

[PaIronDuke]

In sentiment, I agree with this. A proper response requires nuance that ventures into public policy. I'll try to avoid approaching the line.

The goal of this particular mission to retrieve bin Laden--"Geronimo"--was to retrieve him. There was, per reports, little expectation that bin Laden would be able to be taken alive, or without inflicting any casualties to others. However, it is clear that the Seals and those in charge of their mission took care to minimize the number of casualties as much as possible. That our Seals were able to accomplish that, particularly given the incredible difficulty of such a mission, is to their great credit, and to the credit of those who designed this mission.

The broader view--bin Laden as the terrorist who launched a 10-year War on Terror--has not been as surgical, even if the initial goal of finding bin Laden and those responsible for 9/11 was, at least superficially, identical to this specific mission. But the fact of the matter is that wars cannot be fought as precisely and intricately as individual missions.

Lastly, to the more philosophical point you've made, different world leaders have very different perspectives on when force is necessary. Some use it at the drop of a hat; some only when deemed absolutely necessary; some, never at all. Is force ever necessary? I suppose you would argue that it is not. I truly wish that were the case. The confluence of circumstances that would have to arise to eliminate the necessity of force in certain instances would require many variables that are often far too risky or far too unlikely, I'm afraid. But if your point is more directed at the War on Terror, then your point is a great one, but one that must (and has) coincided with force. Remember the necessity of "winning hearts and minds"? The arrival at policies that advance that successfully, without the occasional need of force (see: Iraq, and defense personnel defending the construction of infrastructure, schools, hospitals, homes, businesses, etc.), will hopefully rue the day.

Can that be reached without ever firing a bullet? Certainly. But the absolute policy seems, and has been, too good to be true.

I find the actions of our country in this matter to be virtually impeccable and to be infinitely more compassionate, thoughtful, and carefully managed than anything to-or likely to-come out of the Islamic world under similar circumstances.

Regarding "hearts and minds", this will get the attention and rspect of Islamic and Arabic minds more intensely than anything else I can imagine.

[roywhite]

Nice story about hundreds going to the Flight 93 crash site near Shanksville, PA (http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20110503_Bin_Laden_news_brings_throng_to_Flight_93 _crash_site.html) after the news of Bin Laden's death.


SHANKSVILLE, Pa. - They began to arrive by the dawn's early light, bearing flowers and flags, memories of America's darkest day, and hopes for a safer future.

One man's spray-painted sign said, "I did not forget."

[cspan37421]

One thing that seems to get scant attention is what (IIRC) the NYTimes reported about the SEALS bringing back a "treasure trove" of computers and hard drives from the compound in which Bin Laden had been hiding. We have all heard that there was no telephone or internet access at the site, but OBL obviously carried on overseeing his organization somehow. It seems quite reasonable to believe that many networks could be disrupted as a result of what is found on these computer files. At the very least, it should give us an idea of how it operates.

Getting OBL was an important symbolic step - but there are many, many who would gladly take up his cause and try to fill his shoes. So I don't think his killing makes us much safer, if any. The intel we captured, and how we make use of it, very well may, however.

[Scorp4me]

Sometimes there are absolutes.......

I couldn't agree more. It is the current sentiment of our generation that there is no black and white only shades of grey that has to the currently situation our world faces. Were that the case for our grandparents we might all be speaking a very different language. I can only say that I feel a bit better than some of the those moving into power (not just here but also abroad) now are figuring out that was a mistake.

I'm not going to get into an argument over whether things were better in our grandparents time, but they had a few things right I think we can learn from.

[johnb]

I couldn't agree more. It is the current sentiment of our generation that there is no black and white only shades of grey that has to the currently situation our world faces. Were that the case for our grandparents we might all be speaking a very different language...

I may be misinterpreting your point, but I'd say there are plenty of shades of gray. Not so much about this mission--which seems obviously to have been an assassination, which I'd view as reasonable--but about our approach to people who are different from us. And so while I'd say 9/11 might have been absolutely wrong, our country has made many international decisions over the decades that would be unlikely to earn us friends throughout the world.

But to my point. If the United States of my grandparents' time was as blanketly mistrustful and angry towards nonAmericans as are plenty of segments of our population, the US would have closed its borders 80 years ago, and yep, many of us wouldn't be speaking English; we'd be speaking whatever language they speak in our grandparents' countries since many of us would never have become Americans in the first place.

[BD80]

One thing that seems to get scant attention is what (IIRC) the NYTimes reported about the SEALS bringing back a "treasure trove" of computers and hard drives from the compound in which Bin Laden had been hiding. We have all heard that there was no telephone or internet access at the site, but OBL obviously carried on overseeing his organization somehow. It seems quite reasonable to believe that many networks could be disrupted as a result of what is found on these computer files. At the very least, it should give us an idea of how it operates.

Getting OBL was an important symbolic step - but there are many, many who would gladly take up his cause and try to fill his shoes. So I don't think his killing makes us much safer, if any. The intel we captured, and how we make use of it, very well may, however.

A big part of obl's success was the financing. obl was a figurehead, a presence that generated a flow of money to terrorist activities. Losing obl will greatly weaken the financial ties to the Arabian shieks, and the computer files may also divulge the finances that made obl so dangerous,

Without obl, there will be no leader, but there will be power struggles that will weaken al quida and expose it to further attack.

There will still be terrorism, but it will not be so well funded nor so well planned.

[moonpie23]

i too agree that "retrieval" was not on the menu....

A long drawn out trial? where he would have a direct camera to the world with every statement that came out of his mouth? Execution? hardly in this day and age...another ageless debate over the death penalty? with so many emotions at stake?

not the mention the possibility, however remote, that he could be snitched back from us?


no. i think the mission was carried out flawlessly.......well, cept for that helo....

[Kfanarmy]

Not a mod, but the answer is that it was posted on DBR proper. By longstanding convention, that means it is fair game for the main board. Didn't even notice the PPB was gone...Is this a serious unstated rule? anything on DBR can be a topic for the main board vice Off Topic?

[-jk]

Didn't even notice the PPB was gone...Is this a serious unstated rule? anything on DBR can be a topic for the main board vice Off Topic?

More of a tradition than a hard-and-fast rule. But, yes, traditionally, most topics Julio covers on the main site are fair game on the EK board.

And, yes, the PPB has been gone for years. It's covered in the gudelines sticky.

-jk

[Orange&BlackSheep]

I think my favorite part of the conspiracy theory(ies) mentioned earlier in this thread is the notion that President Bush would have left the glory of announcing Bin Laden's death to his "Democrat" successor.

I appreciate Jason's re-attempt at framing this as a celebration of something other than Bin Laden's cold, dead body. Time has allowed this moment to be less bile filled for me. That said, the systematic elimination of members of this group seems like good policy to me.

[Poincaré]

I noticed that my post offended some people (you know who you are). I apologize for that. I had no intention of dumping on your moment. Please understand that my intentions were pure and I was only worried about the thread turning political and dividing Duke fans as it became longer. I was also ignorant of the rules regarding what is allowed on the main board. My worries might have been premature. Given the presence of moderators in this thread, I am sure that things will be monitored so that they don't get out of hand.

[roywhite]

I think my favorite part of the conspiracy theory(ies) mentioned earlier in this thread is the notion that President Bush would have left the glory of announcing Bin Laden's death to his "Democrat" successor.

I appreciate Jason's re-attempt at framing this as a celebration of something other than Bin Laden's cold, dead body. Time has allowed this moment to be less bile filled for me. That said, the systematic elimination of members of this group seems like good policy to me.

Sorry, I've read most of the posts in this thread; I can't figure out what you're talking about here?

Can you make a specific reference or explain further?

[Newton_14]

Sorry, I've read most of the posts in this thread; I can't figure out what you're talking about here?

Can you make a specific reference or explain further?

Some of the posts were removed due to political content. That is why you missed them Roy.

We would request that folks not go down that road. Thoughts on the mission and outcome are welcome, but we do not want to get into politics in this thread. On the whole, most have followed that guideline.

Let's stay away from political conspiracy theories please. Thanks

[blazindw]

56.5 million people watched the President deliver the news that bin Laden was dead live across all the major news networks that carried the live feed. That is beyond incredible considering for 80% of the population, it was 10:30 or later (Eastern and Central time zones) on a Sunday night.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/03/osama-bin-laden-dead-56-million-viewers-announcement_n_857277.html

[cspan37421]

A big part of obl's success was the financing. obl was a figurehead, a presence that generated a flow of money to terrorist activities. Losing obl will greatly weaken the financial ties to the Arabian shieks, and the computer files may also divulge the finances that made obl so dangerous,

Without obl, there will be no leader, but there will be power struggles that will weaken al quida and expose it to further attack.

There will still be terrorism, but it will not be so well funded nor so well planned.

I think it will be fascinating to find out from those hard drives, flash disks, etc., what banks, governments, companies, etc., (if any) were happy to do business with him for a given price. Obviously that's secondary to breaking up any imminent attacks, but still ... there could be some very nervous people around the globe right now, relocating on short notice.

BTW, I disagree there will be no leader of Al Qaeda. It's a fairly flat organization as it is; in time there may be more, smaller, more loosely knit groups that work together periodically and work independently as well. I don't think there will be that many power struggles. It's my understanding that even in the Islamic religion, it's not very hierarchical at all - there is no worldwide leader of the religion, or even on a national basis - it's heavily localized. So there's a parallel there, they're used to not needing one specific leader.

I feel similarly regarding planning. Given enough people working on terrorism, there will always be some who are better planners than others, and they will, in time, get a reputation for their skills.

Funding wise, I am more with you, it may well be a deep blow to AQ, but as others have noted, you don't have to spend a lot to have a big effect. It would be different if you hoped to organize, feed, clothe, and house an invading army. That's not what they're trying to do. Others have also noted, not a few of these folks are educated enough to hold a decent day job, e.g., engineer by day, fanatic by night. So even the effect of reduced funding may only have mild salutary effects.

[cspan37421]

http://twitter.com/#!/alqaeda

a sample post:

"I always thought that seals were such cute, friendly creatures. Boy, did I get that one wrong."

[wilson]

By far the best, most intelligent consideration of bin Laden's death I've yet seen:
http://www.ymtoday.com/articles/3819/bonhoeffer-and-bin-laden
It comes from a Christian perspective, but via Bonhoeffer, whom I think most can agree had interesting things to say about humanity irrespective of religion.

[hedevil]

It appears that they have gathered some information that Bin Laden was planning future attacks on our railways in the cities of New York, D.C., and Chicago. This is based on the intel that they gathered in Bin Laden's compound. Sorry I don't have a link at the time, I'm watching this on CNN. From what they can gather this planning was in it's infant stages at best. They do know however that the plan had a target date of September 11th, 2011. This year, on the tenth anniversary. I'm curious to see how much info these disc drives and such will produce in the future.

[JasonEvans]

Apparently a cat was instrumental in making the Osama mission work. Slate has a full photo essay (http://www.slate.com/id/2293232/slideshow/2293228/fs/0//entry/2293227/)on the secretive role of cats in war.

http://img.slate.com/media/7/actionCat2.jpg

-Jason "Band of Whiskers... bwahahaha!" Evans

[OldPhiKap]

Apparently a cat was instrumental in making the Osama mission work. Slate has a full photo essay (http://www.slate.com/id/2293232/slideshow/2293228/fs/0//entry/2293227/)on the secretive role of cats in war.

http://img.slate.com/media/7/actionCat2.jpg

-Jason "Band of Whiskers... bwahahaha!" Evans

Looks like a Persian.

[SuperTurkey]

Apparently a cat was instrumental in making the Osama mission work. Slate has a full photo essay (http://www.slate.com/id/2293232/slideshow/2293228/fs/0//entry/2293227/)on the secretive role of cats in war.

http://img.slate.com/media/7/actionCat2.jpg

-Jason "Band of Whiskers... bwahahaha!" Evans

Not to get too PPB, but this is obvious feline propaganda from the Blame Dogs First set. I thought better of you, Jason!

All real Americans support the efforts of Dogfort (http://www.reddit.com/r/dogfort).

[BD80]

Not to get too PPB, but this is obvious feline propaganda from the Blame Dogs First set. I thought better of you, Jason!

All real Americans support the efforts of Dogfort (http://www.reddit.com/r/dogfort).

Cats are so, ... so ... French.

[sagegrouse]

Having watched way too many TV news programs in my life, especially in the last few days, I am amazed at the statements that go unchallenged, as though the folks on the screen aren’t even listening to each other.

Consider these three statements, which have been heard often the last five days:

#1. No one in the Arab world will believe that Osama is dead unless there is a body or at least a recognizable picture. The US has no credibility.

Unasked question: Didn’t the bin Laden compound include over a dozen members of the Bin Laden family, most of whom survived the raid and are in the hands of the Pakistanis. Would not these people testify to his death or be provably related to Obama via records or DNA?

Denouement: No issue. Al Qaeda has admitted that Obama is dead.

#2. The threat of a terrorist response from Al Qaeda and radical groups has increased as a result of Obama’s killing.

Unasked question: While one should never underestimate a threat of terrorism, isn’t it true that with the records the CIA recovered at the site plus the other records gathered prior to the raid that the members of Al Qaeda are too busy covering their tracks and fleeing for their lives?

Denouement: We’ll see.

#3. Given the location of the compound in a Pakistani military city near the national military college, the Pakistanis had to be aware and Osama had to have a support group within the defense or intelligence service.

Unasked question #3-1: In a world where predator drones are killing terrorist leaders right and left, is there not a safer place in the country than the small city of Abbottabad?

Unasked question #3-2: With all the evidence gathered by the US at the CIA spy center in the town of Abbottabad (today's WaPo), will not the involvement of people in the compound with the Paki government be clearly laid out in evidence produced by the US.

Denouement: I am all ears....

sagegrouse

[duke09hms]

Would not these people testify to his death or be provably related to Obama via records or DNA?

Denouement: No issue. Al Qaeda has admitted that Obama is dead.

#2. The threat of a terrorist response from Al Qaeda and radical groups has increased as a result of Obama’s killing.



It's hilarious how many times people still get Obama and Osama confused and misspelled haha.

News companies are out to make money, and the longer they can stir up controversy and conspiracy theories the more money they make. It also helps to have an ignorant general public too.

[sagegrouse]

It's hilarious how many times people still get Obama and Osama confused and misspelled haha.

News companies are out to make money, and the longer they can stir up controversy and conspiracy theories the more money they make. It also helps to have an ignorant general public too.

Thanks for pointing out the error. I now try to use only "Bin Laden" cuz I can't screw it up, but my wife catches me mixing up Obama/Osama all the time. Second time in this thread. :o :o

sagegrouse

[wilson]

A fascinating deconstruction of "The Situation Room Photo":
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/05/iconic.photo/index.html?iref=obinsite

[SuperTurkey]

A fascinating deconstruction of "The Situation Room Photo":
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/05/05/iconic.photo/index.html?iref=obinsite

Very interesting, thanks for the link! It's either a positive statement for social progress or a negative statement for my own naivete that I never thought of the racial aspect (Obama as America's protector) of the picture.

[moonpie23]

wow....the videos released today sure paint a different picture of OBL....the mystique certainly fades away.....

[bluepenguin]

Folks, I am unlocking this thread because I know many members of the DBR community will want to join together to celebrate this news -- even as crowds are gathering all over the country to celebrate it together.

Thanks for unlocking, but can you explain why this is in the main basketball forum and not the off-topic forum?

[SuperTurkey]

Thanks for unlocking, but can you explain why this is in the main basketball forum and not the off-topic forum?

As discussed earlier in the thread, by longstanding convention, almost anything written about on DBR proper is eligible for the main board, even if not related to Duke sports.

[superdave]

Cool article (http://news.yahoo.com/ap-enterprise-man-hunted-osama-bin-laden-040627805.html) on the lead intelligence analysts' role in the hunt for Bin Laden.

[MIV]

Cool article (http://news.yahoo.com/ap-enterprise-man-hunted-osama-bin-laden-040627805.html) on the lead intelligence analysts' role in the hunt for Bin Laden.

Hmmm...he walked on to a Div I basketball team, shows unparalleled persistence, always had influence beyond his title, and is the one man in the room that everyone listens to. Can there be any doubt about this man's true identity (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=152100)?

[OldPhiKap]

Hmmm...he walked on to a Div I basketball team, shows unparalleled persistence, always had influence beyond his title, and is the one man in the room that everyone listens to. Can there be any doubt about this man's true identity (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=152100)?

I thought it was Reggie Love, but he wouldn't have needed the Seals to finish his job.

[altmike]

Does anyone else think that it is odd that no one is asking about the heir apparent, Bin Laden son Hamza? There were reports that he had escaped the raid a couple of weeks after Osama was killed.

Osama's 11 year-old daughter told the pakistanis that Hamza was taken away alive with Osama's body.

The US has maintained that only Osama was taken from the compound.

There has been no peep out of Hamza for the last eight weeks nor has the US or Pakistan had any urgency to find the fleeing terrorist that I could find.

About two weeks ago some international reports stated that Hamza was captured by the Americans and buried at sea with his father.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I only think it is odd that no one else has asked the question, "Did we get Hamza?".

[superdave]

Does anyone else think that it is odd that no one is asking about the heir apparent, Bin Laden son Hamza? There were reports that he had escaped the raid a couple of weeks after Osama was killed.

Osama's 11 year-old daughter told the pakistanis that Hamza was taken away alive with Osama's body.

The US has maintained that only Osama was taken from the compound.

There has been no peep out of Hamza for the last eight weeks nor has the US or Pakistan had any urgency to find the fleeing terrorist that I could find.

About two weeks ago some international reports stated that Hamza was captured by the Americans and buried at sea with his father.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, I only think it is odd that no one else has asked the question, "Did we get Hamza?".

Like the actual size of Patrick Davidson's biceps, it's classified!