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NYC Duke Fan
04-19-2011, 05:59 AM
I good friend of mine and a UNC graduate, ( he was a track star there), gloating over the announcement that Harrison Barnes was returning, was ragging me about Kyrie Irvings bailing out after only one year. He said the same thing was going to happen next year with Austin Rivers and even mentioned Corey Magette. I countered that while Magette was a very player for Duke I did not consider him to be an impact player in the same mold as Irving or what I expect Rivers to be.

I indicated that had Irving not gotten hurt this year there was a chance that he would have returned for his sophmore year.

He said impact UNC players don't leave after one year and challenged me to name one.I said Marvin Williams and he countered with saying that while Williams was a very good player at UNC, he only averaged about 11 points a game and about 20 minutes playing time and he did not consider him to be an impact player like Irving was .

It was all done in good fun. He had to buy me a steak dinner at Peter Lugar's last year as I had to do the same a few years back when UNC won. I hope that I don't have to do it again in March of 2012.

Can anyone help him out here to rebut his challenge?

Thank you.

sagegrouse
04-19-2011, 06:13 AM
I good friend of mine and a UNC graduate, ( he was a track star there), gloating over the announcement that Harrison Barnes was returning, was ragging me about Kyrie Irvings bailing out after only one year. He said the same thing wasa going to happen next year with Austin Rivers and even mentioned Corey Magette. I countered that while Magette was a very player for Duke I did not consider him to be an impact player in the same mold as Irving or what I expect Rivers to be.

I indicated that had Irving not gotten hurt this year there was a chance that he would have returned for his sophmore year.

He said UNC players don't leave after one year and challenged me to name one.I said Marvin Williams and he countered with saying that While Williams was a very good player at UNC, he only averaged about 11 points a game and about 20 minutes playing time and he did not consider him to be an impact player like Irving was .

Off the top of my head, I think it is two to one for Duke players leaving after one year vs. UNC players. UNC, however, has a longer list staying only two years before entering the draft, including Rasheed, Stackhouse, Jamison, Carter, and Ed Davis. Duke's list is Avery, Brand, and McBob.

And, of course, there is always the pipeline from UNC to Los Angeles: Wear, Wear, Drew, and Stephenson.

sagegrouse

sporthenry
04-19-2011, 06:34 AM
I good friend of mine and a UNC graduate, ( he was a track star there), gloating over the announcement that Harrison Barnes was returning, was ragging me about Kyrie Irvings bailing out after only one year. He said the same thing was going to happen next year with Austin Rivers and even mentioned Corey Magette. I countered that while Magette was a very player for Duke I did not consider him to be an impact player in the same mold as Irving or what I expect Rivers to be.

I indicated that had Irving not gotten hurt this year there was a chance that he would have returned for his sophmore year.

He said UNC players don't leave after one year and challenged me to name one.I said Marvin Williams and he countered with saying that while Williams was a very good player at UNC, he only averaged about 11 points a game and about 20 minutes playing time and he did not consider him to be an impact player like Irving was .

It was all done in good fun. He had to buy me a steak dinner at Peter Lugar's last year as I had to do the same a few years back when UNC won. I hope that I don't have to do it again in March of 2012.

Can anyone help him out here to rebut him?

Thank you.

Well you also got Brandan Wright who played 27.4 minutes with 14.7 points and 6.2 rebounds. And I'm not really sure what his argument is? It is funny with UNC fans, you just can't win. If Singler or McRoberts come back, its b/c the coach manipulated them, but if they go, its b/c UNC recruits higher quality guys or something along those lines. How about Smith and Singler return after a title run, something Lawson or Ellington didn't do?


These current situations are completely different than the past with the new rule where you probably would never have seen AR or even KI in college to begin with. And if Barnes actually lived up to the hype all year, meaning he was an AA, I don't see him coming back. Instead, I would say both teams have had their share of highly touted freshman who come in and struggle a bit so their draft stocks fall. McRoberts, Singler, Ed Davis, etc. And in today's game, you are better not playing a game b/c your potential can only go down from there.

darjum
04-19-2011, 07:08 AM
The primary reason you will find it difficult to rebut his point is that during the one and done era UNC has not had a freshman who was actually good enough to be a 100% lock as a top 1-2 selection in the draft. The only one was indeed Marvin Williams (whom I might add stinks as an NBA player despite obvious physical gifts). Recent Tar Heels with the obvious athletic physical tools to play at an NBA level (eg Brandon Wright, Marvin Williams, Ed Davis etc) haven't had the mental toughness to match.

His point is mute and when Kyrie and Austin tear up the NBA you'll be the one laughing.

MIKESJ73
04-19-2011, 08:22 AM
You could bring up the All-American arguement.

Duke has had 15 consensus All-Americans since 1988, 13 graduated (Brand and Dunleavy are the exceptions) and this doesn't include guys like Duhon and Singler that made one or more second teams but were not consensus.

uNC on the other hand had 10 during the same time period. Only two graduated (Hanstravel and Montross were the exceptions).

OZZIE4DUKE
04-19-2011, 08:23 AM
Boy, I hate it when Adam Gold (99thefan in Raleigh) gets something right, but in this case what he said yesterday probably makes your case as well as anything will. When it comes to Kyrie, all his skills are in place to succeed in the NBA. While he can certainly improve and get stronger, he can already do everything he needs to at an acceptable level to make an impact next season, if there is a next season, in the NBA. Not so for Harrison Barnes. He needs to be able to do more than shoot, and the best place for him to work on his skills is in college, and not on an airplane traveling from city to city in the NBA and then sitting on the bench during games.

As for Maggette, his leaving early was a blessing, as his then unknown AAU infractions before he was recruited by Duke came to light after he was gone and might/could have led to penalties to Duke had he stayed. We got lucky, although we didn't know it at the time.

And, by the way, I still find Kyrie's situation curious... It's not May 8th yet.

TonyWR
04-19-2011, 08:28 AM
I good friend of mine and a UNC graduate, ( he was a track star there), gloating over the announcement that Harrison Barnes was returning, was ragging me about Kyrie Irvings bailing out after only one year. He said the same thing was going to happen next year with Austin Rivers and even mentioned Corey Magette. I countered that while Magette was a very player for Duke I did not consider him to be an impact player in the same mold as Irving or what I expect Rivers to be.

I indicated that had Irving not gotten hurt this year there was a chance that he would have returned for his sophmore year.

He said impact UNC players don't leave after one year and challenged me to name one.I said Marvin Williams and he countered with saying that while Williams was a very good player at UNC, he only averaged about 11 points a game and about 20 minutes playing time and he did not consider him to be an impact player like Irving was .

It was all done in good fun. He had to buy me a steak dinner at Peter Lugar's last year as I had to do the same a few years back when UNC won. I hope that I don't have to do it again in March of 2012.

Can anyone help him out here to rebut his challenge?

Thank you.

Remind your tarhole buddy that Duke players don't transfer out in cowardly fashion and have their fathers call the coach to inform him. All you need to say is "Wear Twins".

It's hilarious, when the holes have an advantage that's all you hear but when they choke out (nit, graves, wear twins, etc...) they don't want to discuss it. Typical.

Son of Mojo
04-19-2011, 08:30 AM
Off the top of my head, I think it is two to one for Duke players leaving after one year vs. UNC players. UNC, however, has a longer list staying only two years before entering the draft, including Rasheed, Stackhouse, Jamison, Carter, and Ed Davis. Duke's list is Avery, Brand, and McBob.

And, of course, there is always the pipeline from UNC to Los Angeles: Wear, Wear, Drew, and Stephenson.

sagegrouse

Weren't Jamison and Carter 3 year players?

sagegrouse
04-19-2011, 08:33 AM
You could bring up the All-American arguement.

Duke has had 15 consensus All-Americans since 1988, 13 graduated (Brand and Dunleavy are the exceptions) and this doesn't include guys like Duhon and Singler that made one or more second teams but were not consensus.

uNC on the other hand had 10 during the same time period. Only two graduated (Hanstravel and Montross were the exceptions).

I thought Mike Dunleavy did graduate. At least, there was testimony here about some 6-9 guy in cap and gown in Wallace Wade.

sagegrouse

Turtleboy
04-19-2011, 08:46 AM
His point is mute and when Kyrie and Austin tear up the NBA you'll be the one laughing.And even if he were the one laughing you wouldn't be able to hear him.

El_Diablo
04-19-2011, 08:55 AM
I thought Mike Dunleavy did graduate. At least, there was testimony here about some 6-9 guy in cap and gown in Wallace Wade.

sagegrouse

Dunleavy returned for summer school, earning a B.A. in History in the summer of 2005.

NBA bio: http://www.nba.com/playerfile/mike_dunleavy/bio.html

MIKESJ73
04-19-2011, 09:03 AM
Sorry, I meant graduated before entering the NBA. I should have said that.

UrinalCake
04-19-2011, 09:03 AM
It's really ironic that people are ripping Duke for having a one-and-done player. As recently as last year, the common criticism was that Coach K can no longer recruit elite talent. Even our National Championship was viewed as the result of above-average players staying around, plus a lot of luck. Now one guy leaves early, who's projected to be a likely #1 overall, and all of a sudden it means that Duke is some one-and-done factory? People will find any reason they can to hate on Duke.

jdk
04-19-2011, 09:15 AM
Marvin Williams and Corey Maggette are very similar comparisons in terms of being sixth men whose stock skyrocketed after the tournament.

UrinalCake
04-19-2011, 09:25 AM
Marvin Williams and Corey Maggette are very similar comparisons in terms of being sixth men whose stock skyrocketed after the tournament.

Also, both players would have started for any other team in the country other than the ones they were on.

Matches
04-19-2011, 09:51 AM
Yeah, Brendan Wright is the obvious counterpoint - started as a freshman and was a key player. Maggette and Williams are, as noted, very similar in terms of their roles and impact.

And of course, the undercurrent of all this is that Roy seems to be talking guys into staying who probably shouldn't. Ed Davis made a mistake not going pro after his freshman year. Hearing this year that Roy told Barnes he'd go between 5th and 11th? I suppose going 5th counts as "between 5th and 11th", LOL. UNC's had a nice run of guys coming back for an extra year, but arguably it's been to their financial detriment (and likely will be again with Henson and Zeller given how loaded next year's draft is going to be compared to this year's).

jdk
04-19-2011, 11:26 AM
And of course, the undercurrent of all this is that Roy seems to be talking guys into staying who probably shouldn't. Ed Davis made a mistake not going pro after his freshman year. Hearing this year that Roy told Barnes he'd go between 5th and 11th? I suppose going 5th counts as "between 5th and 11th", LOL. UNC's had a nice run of guys coming back for an extra year, but arguably it's been to their financial detriment (and likely will be again with Henson and Zeller given how loaded next year's draft is going to be compared to this year's).

I can understand Henson and to an extent, Barnes wanting to come back and develop their game more. But Zeller is the one that puzzles me the most. He already has a ring. He has a history of injuries. In his first full season without injuries, he had arguably the best tournament numbers of any big man in the country. Yet in the weakest draft in a decade where there are no polished big men, he decides to come back? Don't they teach opportunity cost at the UNC business school?

jimsumner
04-19-2011, 11:29 AM
I can understand Henson and to an extent, Barnes wanting to come back and develop their game more. But Zeller is the one that puzzles me the most. He already has a ring. He has a history of injuries. In his first full season without injuries, he had arguably the best tournament numbers of any big man in the country. Yet in the weakest draft in a decade where there are no polished big men, he decides to come back? Don't they teach opportunity cost at the UNC business school?

Tyler Zeller is a very, very good student. He enjoys college and values the degree he'll get next spring.

Matches
04-19-2011, 11:33 AM
Tyler Zeller is a very, very good student. He enjoys college and values the degree he'll get next spring.

Which of course is perfectly valid, commendable even. I hope he's not a business major, though, because he just made a very bad business decision.

College will always be there. Maybe the full "college experience" is fleeting and tied to youth, but the school itself, and the opportunity to get a degree, ain't going anywhere.

jdk
04-19-2011, 11:44 AM
Tyler Zeller is a very, very good student. He enjoys college and values the degree he'll get next spring.

I don't doubt it. That he has to get it next spring is going to cost him however.

Bay Area Duke Fan
04-19-2011, 01:22 PM
Off the top of my head, I think it is two to one for Duke players leaving after one year vs. UNC players. UNC, however, has a longer list staying only two years before entering the draft, including Rasheed, Stackhouse, Jamison, Carter, and Ed Davis. Duke's list is Avery, Brand, and McBob.

And, of course, there is always the pipeline from UNC to Los Angeles: Wear, Wear, Drew, and Stephenson.

sagegrouse

Luol Deng also went to NBA after only one year at Duke.

wilko
04-19-2011, 01:33 PM
I'd spin it the other way as well..

If the crux of his statement is "Folks don't want to leave..."

Then own the other side of the argument "Folks cant wait to get here" as proof to submit Andre D and now Alex M (as of a couple minutes ago...) These guys were so happy to come they left HS early.

The one time (I know of) that Roy tried it with McAdoo he was rebuffed..

sporthenry
04-19-2011, 02:57 PM
I just think this is UNC fans always hating on Duke for whatever they can. I'm sure we do it a bit but not nearly as much as they do it. As previously mentioned, Duke never got top talent or one and dones anymore, now K could have the #1 pick 2 years in a row? Then somehow us getting the top players is bad now b/c they get inferior talent that sticks around?

And it was only a few years ago when we were Transfer U. All year they cried about when would 'Dre transfer. Meanwhile, it is them who have had the defections. And forgive me but I don't see where Dexter, KM, Leslie, Bullock, Hairston, and Barnes all get on the court. So it appears there might be another transfer in the very near future.

Then they bring up K's issues with parents but forget to mention Rashad McCant's dad among others. Or they even bring up Singler passing on the draft and costing him millions when Zeller is doing the exact same thing. But somehow, Zeller is doing it for the right reasons and Singler the wrong.

sagegrouse
04-19-2011, 03:15 PM
Join Date:Feb 2007 Originally Posted by sagegrouse
Off the top of my head, I think it is two to one for Duke players leaving after one year vs. UNC players. UNC, however, has a longer list staying only two years before entering the draft, including Rasheed, Stackhouse, Jamison, Carter, and Ed Davis. Duke's list is Avery, Brand, and McBob.

And, of course, there is always the pipeline from UNC to Los Angeles: Wear, Wear, Drew, and Stephenson.

sagegrouse


Luol Deng also went to NBA after only one year at Duke.
Yeah, I managed off the top of my head to get most of the list wrong, crediting Jamison and Carter with two years when they stayed three. Forgetting about one-year guys Brendan Wright and Luol Deng.

So what is the scorecard:

One and done--
Duke: Maggette, Deng, Kyrie
UNC: Wright, Marvin Williams

Two and over--
Duke: Avery, Brand, McBob
UNC: Rasheed, Stackhouse

Transfer --
Too many to count?

sagegrouse

El_Diablo
04-19-2011, 03:45 PM
Don't forget Ed Davis for the UNC 2-and-through list.

Highlander
04-19-2011, 04:27 PM
Don't forget Ed Davis for the UNC 2-and-through list.

And Joe Forte.

UrinalCake
04-20-2011, 08:37 AM
I think fans can be forgiven for forgetting Joe Forte and Ed Davis. The NBA certainly has.