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-jk
04-15-2011, 08:24 PM
So, as linked on the front page, maybe Barnes plans to return next year.

Surely UNC has to be considered the prohibitive preseason #1 at that point.

Ah, well, the pendulum swings both ways...

-jk

Wheat/"/"/"
04-15-2011, 08:32 PM
Obviously. I hope the "multiple sources" are correct...and I'm sure the guys here must think Feldman has some credibility, but forgive me if I wait until I see an official announcement...

fh84
04-15-2011, 08:33 PM
I am not gonna believe anything until UNC or Barnes personally make an announcement. Yesterday the word was there is no decision and it will take another week...

ACniner
04-15-2011, 08:35 PM
So, as linked on the front page, maybe Barnes plans to return next year.

Surely UNC has to be considered the prohibitive preseason #1 at that point.

Ah, well, the pendulum swings both ways...

-jk

Yeah, I agree with other posters I'm not sure if his sources are going to pan out. I've not heard this mentioned by some of the best in the business yet...

Wheat/"/"/"
04-15-2011, 08:47 PM
This was a post in the comments below Feldman's article from someone claiming to be on the Daily Tar Heel staff...

"As a member of the news organization closest to the team, this is much more than irresponsible reporting--it's a flat out lie. You don't know if he's coming back because he's never said one way or the other. He said he hasn't decided and has no timeline for deciding. If he had decided, there would have been a press release from the University, just as there was a press release for the announcement that Henson, Zeller and the others would be returning. And it's no question that the DTH would have run the story since we've been covering University news for... I don't know... Maybe 118 years? Your claims are false, you have no attribution or facts to support your argument. You're speculating at best, and your speculations aren't even well-informed. Try educating yourself, please. And when we're this close to the guys (closer than I'm sure you'll ever be) I can say with confidence that if anyone knows what his decision is, it would be his coach, his teammates, the University, and us."

I'm a little surprised that DBR may have jumped the gun on this. Do J&B have some other sources?????

fh84
04-15-2011, 08:47 PM
I must say this is quite ridiculous and makes me almost happy that Kyrie told us his decision right away. I can't believe how many people seem to just make up stories to get readers/followers.
First this radio moderator from Iowa, who seems to claim everyday that Barnes is going to announce tomorrow, now this.

Jeff Goodman (Fox Sports) yesterday: "Shirley Barnes, Harrison's mother, was adamant to me that no decision has been made yet. Said decision likely next week on his future."

Who knows...

burns15
04-15-2011, 08:56 PM
I must say this is quite ridiculous and makes me almost happy that Kyrie told us his decision right away. I can't believe how many people seem to just make up stories to get readers/followers.
First this radio moderator from Iowa, who seems to claim everyday that Barnes is going to announce tomorrow, now this.

Jeff Goodman (Fox Sports) yesterday: "Shirley Barnes, Harrison's mother, was adamant to me that no decision has been made yet. Said decision likely next week on his future."

Who knows...

The people on IC are refuting this too, Idk if its true

DonnyDevil
04-15-2011, 09:15 PM
This was on twitter....

@DukeHoopBlog C ya Barnes...

I assume this means you think he will enter the draft?

streblo
04-15-2011, 09:26 PM
There isn't a single quote from any of the parties involved in this decision, nor from any of the 'multiple sources' listed in the report. I'm calling BS.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-15-2011, 09:26 PM
He still has until May 8th to withdraw from the draft, if he was to decide to enter, as long as he does not hire an agent.

Kyrie too, right? I don't think he has signed with an agent either.

Unless he was sure he wants to stay, which he must not be, the smart thing would be to declare...pass on hiring and agent, and pull out on May 7th if he wants.

How much more name recognition will he get nationally in the press the longer he waits? Why not play it out to his future professional benefit? His decision is not hurting UNC's recruiting plans, so there is really no downside that I see here in testing things...surprising events could still happen before the deadline that could benefit his position.

Declare, and pull out May7th if he wants to....that's what I'd probably do....

rthomas
04-15-2011, 09:30 PM
Harrison Barnes is the real deal. It's pretty obvious by the way he played, especially towards the second half of the season. And as far as being a huge ACC fan, I'm happy to have a star commit. and he will help Duke reach the competitiveness we need.

And to be honest, i love his game. i just wish he wasn't a tar heel.

The bottom line is this: I don't give a rat's patuey who Carolina has. Bring it on.

blueduke59
04-15-2011, 09:41 PM
Article says:


[With Barnes returning to school, the 2012 NBA Draft is shaping up to be one of the deepest and most talented drafts in recent memory and could include other sophomore standouts such as Ohio State's Jared Sullinger and Baylor's Perry Jones, along with a potential slew of talented freshman.

If story is true the biggest loser in all this (besides unc's opponents) is Todd Zeller. He was projected a fringe 1st round pick this year. He'll be lucky to get drafted next year.

devildeac
04-15-2011, 09:44 PM
I'm not going to believe any decision until it has been Skyped.;)

Duke4life92
04-15-2011, 10:09 PM
I can believe it,heck:rolleyes:,imo this kid is so vain that he knows he is'nt going to be #1 in the draft and probably can't stand the thought it.He's ego would be crushed.He'll return and try again to be projected as #1 overall pick in the draft next year.Jmo,but i could care less either way,give em hell duke no matter who you play!

Scorp4me
04-15-2011, 10:42 PM
They were picked too high pre-season last year and the pollsters couldn't wait to get them back up in the rankings to prove they weren't wrong. Now mind you I'm not saying they weren't good, just too high.

Now they're better this year and they'd have to be picked #1...wouldn't wanna ruin a perfect records =)

dukelifer
04-15-2011, 10:58 PM
They were picked too high pre-season last year and the pollsters couldn't wait to get them back up in the rankings to prove they weren't wrong. Now mind you I'm not saying they weren't good, just too high.

Now they're better this year and they'd have to be picked #1...wouldn't wanna ruin a perfect records =)
I predict the entire UNC basketball starting lineup will be pre-season first team All Americans- it is only fitting for the greatest basketball team in our lifetime.

Bob Green
04-15-2011, 11:03 PM
If story is true the biggest loser in all this (besides unc's opponents) is Todd Zeller. He was projected a fringe 1st round pick this year. He'll be lucky to get drafted next year.

Who is Todd Zeller? :confused:

BD80
04-15-2011, 11:08 PM
The "Black Falcon" isn't ready for the pros? He was at this time last year!

He would be a higher pick this year than next.

richardjackson199
04-15-2011, 11:20 PM
Who is Ryan Feldman and who are his multiple sources close to Barnes? The front page claims Barnes has announced his intention to return. But there are no quotes from Barnes anywhere saying this. So why has no major news outlet, UNC, Barnes himself, or anyone reliable said that? I have no inside info. DBR has a no rumor-mongering policy. There are links, but are they credible? I'm just asking. This sounds very premature unless someone knows something.

Leck
04-15-2011, 11:27 PM
no speculation in this post, simply a reaction to the intial post's assertion that if barnes returns the pendulem swings back to the holes next year.

if he does, they'll be great. no doubt about it. but they're definitely flawed w/ only zeller and henson on the front line, obviously desmond hubert will be forced into minutes immediately...and he ain't ready like justin knox was. if either zeller or henson get into foul trouble, they're in trouble (think kentucky).

honestly, i see our trajectory next season as being similar to carolina's this past year. we're gonna struggle early and have some growing pains, but come mid-march...no one will want to play us. we'll be dangerous. as will carolina. so i think the pendulem isn't swinging as far to their side as some might think.

dukelifer
04-15-2011, 11:30 PM
Who is Ryan Feldman and who are his multiple sources close to Barnes? The front page claims Barnes has announced his intention to return. But there are no quotes from Barnes anywhere saying this. So why has no major news outlet, UNC, Barnes himself, or anyone reliable said that? I have no inside info. DBR has a no rumor-mongering policy. There are links, but are they credible? I'm just asking. This sounds very premature unless someone knows something.

Did not even make the local news- even the rumor. Either no one cares that he has announced or there is no announcement.

El_Diablo
04-15-2011, 11:33 PM
no speculation in this post, simply a reaction to the intial post's assertion that if barnes returns the pendulem swings back to the holes next year.

if he does, they'll be great. no doubt about it. but they're definitely flawed w/ only zeller and henson on the front line, obviously desmond hubert will be forced into minutes immediately...and he ain't ready like justin knox was. if either zeller or henson get into foul trouble, they're in trouble (think kentucky).

honestly, i see our trajectory next season as being similar to carolina's this past year. we're gonna struggle early and have some growing pains, but come mid-march...no one will want to play us. we'll be dangerous. as will carolina. so i think the pendulem isn't swinging as far to their side as some might think.

Well, sorry to burst your bubble, but they also got 5-star PF James McAdoo up front.

El_Diablo
04-16-2011, 12:21 AM
That said, until a few Wildcats declare for the draft, I think Kentucky is still better than UNC on paper (even if Barnes returns).

Devilsfan
04-16-2011, 12:39 AM
Let's hope the skyper from he cornfields returns. It will be all the more satisfying to beat them and expose the bubba wannabe coach as totally overrated.

blueduke59
04-16-2011, 07:17 AM
Who is Todd Zeller? :confused:

Tyler Zeller. My apologies. Don't know where the Todd came from.:o

Mike Corey
04-16-2011, 09:10 AM
To be fair, he does look like a Todd.

Expect Humble Harry to return. His deal with Jordan (http://www.nike.com/jumpman23/index.html) will be waiting for him whenever he chooses to go pro.

And if he flops, he can always follow in Tyler Hansbrough's footsteps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBJm-UorQu0).

Channing
04-16-2011, 09:43 AM
I can believe it,heck:rolleyes:,imo this kid is so vain that he knows he is'nt going to be #1 in the draft and probably can't stand the thought it.He's ego would be crushed.He'll return and try again to be projected as #1 overall pick in the draft next year.Jmo,but i could care less either way,give em hell duke no matter who you play!

Where do people get that his ego is so much larger than the rest of the college basketball worlds? Yes. He skyped his announcement. He also had the entire world telling him he was the best college basketball recruit since Carmello Anthony, and had two of the most storied programs in NCAA history coming after him with the full court press.

I didn't see anything in the way he acted during the year that made me think his ego was out of control. He didn't throw teammates under the bus when he was struggling, he didn't conduct me first interviews, and by all accounts, he was a great teammate.

kong123
04-16-2011, 10:10 AM
HB met with Roy yesterday around 1:45. In this meeting, HB reportedly told Roy that he was leaning toward the NBA. The more and more I think about it, I wonder if HB is just playing a little game.

Bob Green
04-16-2011, 10:20 AM
HB met with Roy yesterday around 1:45. In this meeting, HB reportedly told Roy that he was leaning toward the NBA. The more and more I think about it, I wonder if HB is just playing a little game.

Can you provide a legitimate source to back up this post? Or, is this just a rumor? Rumor mongering is frowned upon at DBR.

devildeac
04-16-2011, 10:21 AM
HB met with Roy yesterday around 1:45. In this meeting, HB reportedly told Roy that he was leaning toward the NBA. The more and more I think about it, I wonder if HB is just playing a little game.

HB?

Playing a little game?

Nah, couldn't be talking about the same fellow.:rolleyes:

kong123
04-16-2011, 10:24 AM
Can you provide a legitimate source to back up this post? Or, is this just a rumor? Rumor mongering is frowned upon at DBR.

Since this is a thread based on speculation, I do not see my post as an infraction. Having said that, I expect an email any second now banning me for a few days.

I stand by what I have posted and I cannot post a link to it because it is also frowned upon. Take it for what is, but I think it is valid information.

Bob Green
04-16-2011, 10:27 AM
I stand by what I have posted and I cannot post a link to it because it is also frowned upon.

Ah, a thread at IC? That's about as reliable as a screen door on a submarine.

kong123
04-16-2011, 10:46 AM
This was a post in the comments below Feldman's article from someone claiming to be on the Daily Tar Heel staff...

"As a member of the news organization closest to the team, this is much more than irresponsible reporting--it's a flat out lie. You don't know if he's coming back because he's never said one way or the other. He said he hasn't decided and has no timeline for deciding. If he had decided, there would have been a press release from the University, just as there was a press release for the announcement that Henson, Zeller and the others would be returning. And it's no question that the DTH would have run the story since we've been covering University news for... I don't know... Maybe 118 years? Your claims are false, you have no attribution or facts to support your argument. You're speculating at best, and your speculations aren't even well-informed. Try educating yourself, please. And when we're this close to the guys (closer than I'm sure you'll ever be) I can say with confidence that if anyone knows what his decision is, it would be his coach, his teammates, the University, and us."

I'm a little surprised that DBR may have jumped the gun on this. Do J&B have some other sources?????


Hey, I agree with Wheat, don't call me out for speculation when this thread was started based on information from a speculative article.

Come on Bob, you are better than that....

AluminumDuke
04-16-2011, 10:58 AM
Hey, I agree with Wheat, don't call me out for speculation when this thread was started based on information from a speculative article.

Come on Bob, you are better than that....

It is one thing to post a link to an article, qualifying it by stating upfront that you question the source, and then speculate as to the validity or potential implications of said article. That is a discussion, not rumor mongering.

On the other hand, to state, as if it were fact, that a meeting has taken place between a player and coach and to report statements made in that meeting without siting a source is rumor mongering. If you'd like to push your mockery of this forum and its rules further, I'd be happy to comply with your suggestion of another vacation.

Devilsfan
04-16-2011, 11:03 AM
The question I keep asking is why is Kyrie so much more valuable than HB? The answers I come up with are:
Coaching K taught vs. Ol'Roy coached
Maturity Kyrie was ready for excellence on the court immediately and exhibited tremendous maturity throughout his injury, always supporting his teammates.
How he handled his college recruitment (Skypeless with class).
Overall how Kyrie carries himself.

kong123
04-16-2011, 11:28 AM
The question I keep asking is why is Kyrie so much more valuable than HB? The answers I come up with are:
Coaching K taught vs. Ol'Roy coached
Maturity Kyrie was ready for excellence on the court immediately and exhibited tremendous maturity throughout his injury, always supporting his teammates.
How he handled his college recruitment (Skypeless with class).
Overall how Kyrie carries himself.


I think its laughable that you would attribute KI's early success on anything other than he skill level and athletic ability. HB skillset was not ready for the college level and I believe he is not ready currently for the NBA. I think K is a better coach than Roy, but to say that K taught him and that Roy coached HB seems to be opposite from how it actually played out. KI was amazing right off the bat. The first 8 games he played placed him firmly as the #1 prospect in the NBA draft. The first half of HB's season, HB played well below expectations. At the end, he improved enough to regain top draft status. So, looking at these two scenarios, one player got better throughout the year, the other player basically came into college prepared to play at the next level, both physically and in level of skill. However, your perspective is noted.

I understand you feel that HB was classless for using Skype to make his announcement, but as someone else pointed out in this thread, how has he shown great immaturity? By picking UNC over Duke? By a nickname given to him by ESPN?

http://www.tarheeltimes.com/article29902.aspx

gumbomoop
04-16-2011, 11:37 AM
The question I keep asking is why is Kyrie so much more valuable than HB? The answers I come up with are:
Coaching K taught vs. Ol'Roy coached
Maturity Kyrie was ready for excellence on the court immediately and exhibited tremendous maturity throughout his injury, always supporting his teammates.
How he handled his college recruitment (Skypeless with class).
Overall how Kyrie carries himself.

Maybe it's more a matter of position-specific skills. For his position of PG, Kyrie has top-quality skills, esp an amazing handle-in-speed. He uses both hands when attacking the rim.

Barnes, OTOH, while also a fine, fine talent, just yet lacks the kind of smooth handle NBA folks value in SFs. I wondered throughout the season why HB settled so frequently for outside shots. Perhaps he understood that his handle, undoubtedly a strength at HS-level, was adequate but not great for ACC-level.

Both are special talents, and likely clutch players even at the next level, but right now Kyrie is more clearly ready to play efficiently at the highest level. Kyrie is a much more [I]exciting player than Barnes. Even the also-exciting Jimmer and Kemba aren't going to go #1-2. I'd guess Minnesota will do almost anything other than offer Kevin Love in a trade, to trade up to #1 if they fall to #2-4 in the lottery. [I don't know crap about the NBA, so anyone feel free to correct my outrageous speculation here, if it's outrageous.]

Barnes does have a somewhat more difficult decision to make than did Kyrie. There is surely just a bit of an ego-thing involved [possibly for Kyrie, definitely for Barnes]. For example, had Sullinger and Jones [Baylor] opted to leave college, I'd guess - repeat: guess - that Barnes would be more likely to stay at UNC. But since they both appear to be staying in college, that means Barnes moves up to top 5, probably, making it a bit more tempting to leave now.

fgb
04-16-2011, 12:21 PM
if the nba adopts a 2 and done rule, barnes would still be top 5 next year. he could even without it, but with it, it's difficult to imagine him not being up there.

Duvall
04-16-2011, 03:28 PM
I think its laughable that you would attribute KI's early success on anything other than he skill level and athletic ability. HB skillset was not ready for the college level and I believe he is not ready currently for the NBA. I think K is a better coach than Roy, but to say that K taught him and that Roy coached HB seems to be opposite from how it actually played out.[/url]

This isn't baseball. Part of a coach's job is designing a system that displays his player's strengths and hides their weaknesses. Krzyzewski revamped Duke's entire approach on offense and defense to take advantage of Irving's skills, and the results were remarkable.

ChicagoHeel
04-16-2011, 03:39 PM
Where do people get that his ego is so much larger than the rest of the college basketball worlds? Yes. He skyped his announcement. He also had the entire world telling him he was the best college basketball recruit since Carmello Anthony, and had two of the most storied programs in NCAA history coming after him with the full court press.

I didn't see anything in the way he acted during the year that made me think his ego was out of control. He didn't throw teammates under the bus when he was struggling, he didn't conduct me first interviews, and by all accounts, he was a great teammate.

I have often wondered the same. I admit that the Skype acceptance was a little over the top, but other than that I don't see much call for calling the kid arrogant. Obviously, he has confidence- you must if you are going to take and hit the clutch shots. But his behavior at UNC has been impressive both on and off the court, especially considering the way he struggled on the court for the first time in his life.

Duvall
04-16-2011, 03:44 PM
I have often wondered the same. I admit that the Skype acceptance was a little over the top, but other than that I don't see much call for calling the kid arrogant. Obviously, he has confidence- you must if you are going to take and hit the clutch shots. But his behavior at UNC has been impressive both on and off the court, especially considering the way he struggled on the court for the first time in his life.

We were all impressed with the way Barnes did not let his inability to put the ball in the basket with regularity stop him from taking fourteen to fifteen shots each game. Perseverance.

Mike Corey
04-16-2011, 04:43 PM
I have often wondered the same. I admit that the Skype acceptance was a little over the top, but other than that I don't see much call for calling the kid arrogant. Obviously, he has confidence- you must if you are going to take and hit the clutch shots. But his behavior at UNC has been impressive both on and off the court, especially considering the way he struggled on the court for the first time in his life.

Mr. Barnes was humbled in the first half of the season, particularly as his friends at Ohio State, Texas and Duke flourished as freshman right out of the gate. He was a better player and teammate as a result of those struggles, IMO, and will continue to be so in the future. By March, the Iowan was one of the best players in the country.

davekay1971
04-16-2011, 05:30 PM
I think its laughable that you would attribute KI's early success on anything other than he skill level and athletic ability. HB skillset was not ready for the college level and I believe he is not ready currently for the NBA. I think K is a better coach than Roy, but to say that K taught him and that Roy coached HB seems to be opposite from how it actually played out. KI was amazing right off the bat. The first 8 games he played placed him firmly as the #1 prospect in the NBA draft. The first half of HB's season, HB played well below expectations. At the end, he improved enough to regain top draft status. So, looking at these two scenarios, one player got better throughout the year, the other player basically came into college prepared to play at the next level, both physically and in level of skill. However, your perspective is noted.

Some of the early success of Kyrie and struggles of TBF are probably due to their relative levels of preparedness coming into college, and some are probably due to the system/situation in which they were placed. As noted earlier in this thread, K recognized Kyrie's skills and structured the offense around him, which worked out well for Kyrie. Barnes, on the other hand, was placed in a situation where he seemed to be expected to create his own shot, which he was not able to do. Barnes' improvement coincided with Marshall's assumption of the bulk of the PG responsibilities. Even at the end of the season, I didn't see Barnes as being significantly better at creating his own shot. However, Carolina's offense, with Marshall at the point, got Barnes the ball in positions where he could finish close to the basket or get open looks and take better advantage of his strong shooting abilities. I'll grant Roy some credit for putting Barnes in a better position to succeed...but I suspect Marshall deserves most of that credit.

dukedoc
04-16-2011, 05:35 PM
Could someone change the title of this thread? Seems inaccurate, at least for now, and gives me indigestion.

Wheat/"/"/"
04-16-2011, 06:08 PM
My sense of Barnes is that he is never going to be the type of NBA player that takes people off the dribble at crunch time, unless it's with that little step back jumper, which is pretty sweet.

He's going to kill teams with steady play and make you pay for mistakes...solid defense, can't leave him open, better block him out...etc. just a really good all around player and teammate with no real weakness, but no great overwhelming gift either.

That's why I just don't see him as a top pick, but then again, a lot of the guys with the "gifts" besides, Kyrie and D. Williams, are sitting this one out it seems, so he has climbed the board.

yancem
04-16-2011, 06:32 PM
My sense of Barnes is that he is never going to be the type of NBA player that takes people off the dribble at crunch time, unless it's with that little step back jumper, which is pretty sweet.

He's going to kill teams with steady play and make you pay for mistakes...solid defense, can't leave him open, better block him out...etc. just a really good all around player and teammate with no real weakness, but no great overwhelming gift either.

That's why I just don't see him as a top pick, but then again, a lot of the guys with the "gifts" besides, Kyrie and D. Williams, are sitting this one out it seems, so he has climbed the board.

There are a whole lot of guys with the "gifts" you're talking about in college this year period. Even if all of the top guys declared, it wouldn't overly strengthen this years draft. It was going to be weak and has only gotten weaker with some of the top players returning. But even Sullinger and Jones all have question marks and might have been drafted higher than Barnes but then again depending on how the ping pong balls bounce might not have. To me Barnes is a solid safe pick. Maybe not the guy you want to draft #1 over all but teams have done much worse with picks 3-5.

Hell he'll be better than Kwame Brown and a few other #1 picks but if you have the # 1 pick you almost have to take a risk on the player with "potential". That's why Orlando drafted Howard over Okafor. Yeah he was much more of a risk but sometimes the gambles work out.

chattpanther
04-16-2011, 09:48 PM
Harrison was just interviewed on the Jordan Brand Classic by Quint Kessenich:

Quint asked: "Have you made a decision yet?"
Barnes: "No, I haven't made a decision yet."
Quint: "Well, when will you make a decision?"
Barnes: "Sometime soon."
Quint: "Can you be a little more specific? What are the biggest question marks in your mind right now?"
Barnes: "That's personal stuff. I'll talk to my family."
Quint: "Beautiful, we appreciate your time and good luck"

moonpie23
04-16-2011, 10:01 PM
so, basically, there are two kinds of "sources"....

1. Those sources that don't really know what HWNSNBM is going to do.

or

2. Liars

Wheat/"/"/"
04-16-2011, 10:03 PM
Yep...overall a weak draft.

I think I see what's going on here.

DBR is trying to use some kind of reverse mojo....it was out of charactor for them to use such a weak source. :)

devildeac
04-16-2011, 10:14 PM
Yep...overall a weak draft.

I think I see what's going on here.

DBR is trying to use some kind of reverse mojo....it was out of charactor for them to use such a weak source. :)

Yea, maybe next time someone here will quote a more reliable source, perhaps something like IC.

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/24.gif
;)

dukelifer
04-16-2011, 10:40 PM
so, basically, there are two kinds of "sources"....

1. Those sources that don't really know what HWNSNBM is going to do.

or

2. Liars

I am not sure I can trust Barnes as knowing what he is going to do. He clearly has made his intentions known but he must have forgotten what he said. Sources close to him and the situation can't be wrong.

Duvall
04-16-2011, 10:49 PM
so, basically, there are two kinds of "sources"....

1. Those sources that don't really know what HWNSNBM is going to do.

or

2. Liars

I doubt that. I think there are sources that have been told by Barnes that he is staying, sources that have been told by Barnes that he is leaving, and sources that have been told by Barnes that he is undecided. That's just how he operates.

MarkD83
04-16-2011, 10:51 PM
I doubt that. I think there are sources that have been told by Barnes that he is staying, sources that have been told by Barnes that he is leaving, and sources that have been told by Barnes that he is undecided. That's just how he operates.

Maybe he is transfering to UCLA.

Starter
04-16-2011, 11:24 PM
Given what we know about him already, I could definitely see a scenario where he's confided in people that he's staying, knowing it would leak and get people talking, while still controlling his message and raising his profile by revealing his hand when it works for him.

JasonEvans
04-16-2011, 11:29 PM
FYI- I have changed the title of this thread. Given all the uncertainty, I think it only prudent to change a title that appeared definitive when, in fact, it appears nothing definitive has happened yet.

-Jason "FWIW, like I said about Kyrie, I think Barnes would be loco to come back to school" Evans

ChicagoHeel
04-17-2011, 12:40 AM
Given what we know about him already, I could definitely see a scenario where he's confided in people that he's staying, knowing it would leak and get people talking, while still controlling his message and raising his profile by revealing his hand when it works for him.

And what precisely do you know about him? And on the basis of what evidence have you drawn your conclusions?

Starter
04-17-2011, 01:43 AM
And what precisely do you know about him? And on the basis of what evidence have you drawn your conclusions?

I don't think it's a humongous leap to say Barnes likes all eyes on him, as demonstrated by the way he carried himself throughout his recruiting process, and the method with which he conducted the announcement of his college choice. And it's been beat into the ground that he has a definitive focus on building his personal brand, and such.

I didn't say I was guaranteeing what I presented was the way he's orchestrating this whole thing. But given what we know about his savvy in terms of drumming up attention for the moves he makes, I was just presenting a scenario that seems perfectly plausible. You can't see this potentially being the way he's working it? And note that I didn't even say there's anything fundamentally wrong with it.

So... maybe relax a bit? After all, I like Chicago -- Kanye, Lupe and Common all hail from there, two Dukies in the Bulls' starting lineup, Mark Prior was the man, Abe Frohman and all that. Nothing but love, baby.

darjum
04-17-2011, 05:25 AM
The 2012 draft may contain Anthony Davis, Michael Gilchrist and Austin Rivers all of whom have equal to or greater long term NBA star potential than Mr Barnes. The only prospect in the 2011 draft that DOES have a better chance at being a star in the NBA is Kyrie. Therefore if Mr Barnes skips the 2011 and enters the 2012 draft he may slip quite a few spots...

or there might be no season next year, a new 2+ college attendance rule implemented under the new CBA & Mr Barnes may end up being the only potential star in the 2012 draft...but I doubt it.

Either way when Michael Gbinije locks him up on defense he'll wish he never came back! Go Duke!

_Gary
04-17-2011, 07:49 AM
I don't think it's a humongous leap to say Barnes likes all eyes on him, as demonstrated by the way he carried himself throughout his recruiting process, and the method with which he conducted the announcement of his college choice. And it's been beat into the ground that he has a definitive focus on building his personal brand, and such.

I didn't say I was guaranteeing what I presented was the way he's orchestrating this whole thing. But given what we know about his savvy in terms of drumming up attention for the moves he makes, I was just presenting a scenario that seems perfectly plausible. You can't see this potentially being the way he's working it? And note that I didn't even say there's anything fundamentally wrong with it.

So... maybe relax a bit? After all, I like Chicago -- Kanye, Lupe and Common all hail from there, two Dukies in the Bulls' starting lineup, Mark Prior was the man, Abe Frohman and all that. Nothing but love, baby.


FWIW, I absolutely agree with your assessment of the HB situation. Last night as he was being interviewed he looked like the proverbial cat that swallowed the canary to me. I believe he's already made up his mind and is just directing the media like a conductor does an orchestra. And Y-E-S, he loves having all eyes on him and he's playing this for all it's worth. The polar opposite of Kyrie, IMHO.

El_Diablo
04-17-2011, 09:49 AM
And what precisely do you know about him? And on the basis of what evidence have you drawn your conclusions?

FWIW, a DTH column called Barnes out for constantly googling himself in class, so it's not just the Duke fans (and everyone else who watched Skypegate) who have implied that he is kind of full of himself.

El_Diablo
04-17-2011, 09:56 AM
a new 2+ college attendance rule implemented under the new CBA

I'm not sure why this is being kicked around by the media at all. Yeah, the owners threw that out there once, but it's just posturing in preparation for the CBA negotiations. The players say they intend to get rid of the age restriction, so the owners say they intend to push for a longer restriction, and the two sides end up compromising by keeping it just the way it is. Which is exactly where the owners really want it (since it gives them a chance to filter the real prospects but doesn't keep those players out of the NBA for too long).

The NBA will not go to a 2-year restriction in the new CBA...because it provides no real benefits to owners. Also, if they really wanted a 2-year restriction, they would be talking about a 3-year limit right now.

jipops
04-17-2011, 10:26 AM
In response to the latest title of this thread -

With Barnes I think UNC is a shoe-in for the title. The real question will be whether or not they go undefeated. They will be that good. The last time we saw a team with that kind of talent, balance, and experience was the 2009 UNC team and the 2011-12 UNC team would be even better than '09 with Barnes. Coaching this team would be one of the smallest challenges Roy has ever faced.

Without Barnes UNC is still easily a Final Four caliber team and possibly a title team. They still have one of the top pg's in the country, a very powerful front court, and a plethora of scoring wings.

It's really an embarrassment of riches either way.

uh_no
04-17-2011, 10:40 AM
In response to the latest title of this thread -

With Barnes I think UNC is a shoe-in for the title. The real question will be whether or not they go undefeated. They will be that good. The last time we saw a team with that kind of talent, balance, and experience was the 2009 UNC team and the 2011-12 UNC team would be even better than '09 with Barnes. Coaching this team would be one of the smallest challenges Roy has ever faced.

Without Barnes UNC is still easily a Final Four caliber team and possibly a title team. They still have one of the top pg's in the country, a very powerful front court, and a plethora of scoring wings.

It's really an embarrassment of riches either way.

Be careful. Very similar things were said about last year's duke team....in the end, nobody is a 'shoe in' for the title, regardless of the players on the floor.

sagegrouse
04-17-2011, 10:40 AM
In response to the latest title of this thread -

With Barnes I think UNC is a shoe-in for the title. The real question will be whether or not they go undefeated. They will be that good. The last time we saw a team with that kind of talent, balance, and experience was the 2009 UNC team and the 2011-12 UNC team would be even better than '09 with Barnes. Coaching this team would be one of the smallest challenges Roy has ever faced.

Without Barnes UNC is still easily a Final Four caliber team and possibly a title team. They still have one of the top pg's in the country, a very powerful front court, and a plethora of scoring wings.

It's really an embarrassment of riches either way.

I may have Board fatigue 'cuz I can't tell whether posts are sarcastic or intended to be read straight. But maybe, just maybe the "shoe-in" malaprop was subtly intended to reflect some future butt-kicking by the Devils against the Heels.

sagegrouse

Kedsy
04-17-2011, 11:31 AM
With Barnes I think UNC is a shoe-in for the title. The real question will be whether or not they go undefeated. They will be that good. The last time we saw a team with that kind of talent, balance, and experience was the 2009 UNC team and the 2011-12 UNC team would be even better than '09 with Barnes.

Actually, I think the last time we saw a team with that kind of talent, balance, and experience was the 2010-11 Duke Blue Devils. Wasn't the real question before Kyrie got hurt whether we were going to go undefeated?

COYS
04-17-2011, 11:41 AM
The 2012 draft may contain Anthony Davis, Michael Gilchrist and Austin Rivers all of whom have equal to or greater long term NBA star potential than Mr Barnes. The only prospect in the 2011 draft that DOES have a better chance at being a star in the NBA is Kyrie. Therefore if Mr Barnes skips the 2011 and enters the 2012 draft he may slip quite a few spots...


I think this HAS to way into any prospect's thought process when deciding whether or not to declare. A decent number of top tier prospects have already elected to return with Sullinger and Perry Jones headlining that group. Plus, in general, NBA scouts seem to look more favorably on the high school class of 2011 meaning that the guys you mentioned plus possibly Teague, Kabongo, McAdoo, and Quincy Miller.

I still maintain that the most important fact a college player must consider is whether or not his game and mind are ready for the league. But if he thinks he's ready to go AND the decisions of other prospects means he's likely to be a top 5 pick, I can't imagine turning it down.

Devilsfan
04-17-2011, 12:12 PM
May? He will definitely slip if he defers to 2012. The second important factor and the one that probably has put the most pressure on his staying including the probable recruitment of MJ to get him to stay one more year is the fact that if he goes and becomes instantly rich ol'roy will have to do a lot more coaching in 2012. That's problematic for rams fans imho.

fgb
04-17-2011, 01:44 PM
i think even more importantly than slipping in the draft, is again that second contract; a stronger draft class means a stronger free agent class in four or five years (i can't remember how long the rookie contracts run). the leaner the free agent group, obviously, the more in demand the top players in that group will be, which will drive up their value.

_Gary
04-17-2011, 01:58 PM
Be careful. Very similar things were said about last year's duke team....in the end, nobody is a 'shoe in' for the title, regardless of the players on the floor.

I kinda thought that was jipops point, to put the reverse whammy on them. At least that's the way I took it. :p

Greg_Newton
04-17-2011, 04:29 PM
FWIW, a DTH column called Barnes out for constantly googling himself in class, so it's not just the Duke fans (and everyone else who watched Skypegate) who have implied that he is kind of full of himself.

Is this true?? Is it online anywhere?

If so, that's hilarious.

hudlow
04-17-2011, 05:06 PM
He needs to go this year while he still has his looks.

El_Diablo
04-17-2011, 06:01 PM
Is this true?? Is it online anywhere?

If so, that's hilarious.

"To Harrison Barnes: It’s awesome that you are starting to live up to all the pre-season hype (knock-on-wood), but are you really going to sit in class and Google yourself the whole time?"

http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2011/02/kvetching_board_for_february_18_2011

NashvilleDevil
04-17-2011, 06:08 PM
In response to the latest title of this thread -

With Barnes I think UNC is a shoe-in for the title. The real question will be whether or not they go undefeated. They will be that good. The last time we saw a team with that kind of talent, balance, and experience was the 2009 UNC team and the 2011-12 UNC team would be even better than '09 with Barnes. Coaching this team would be one of the smallest challenges Roy has ever faced.

Without Barnes UNC is still easily a Final Four caliber team and possibly a title team. They still have one of the top pg's in the country, a very powerful front court, and a plethora of scoring wings.

It's really an embarrassment of riches either way.

Have your posts the last 4 months been a long reverse jinx? You kept on saying how great and more talented UNC was all year and now you're on the team next year going undefeated and being one of the great teams in history. Please tell us this is an elaborate reverse jinx.

burns15
04-17-2011, 06:17 PM
In response to the latest title of this thread -

With Barnes I think UNC is a shoe-in for the title. The real question will be whether or not they go undefeated. They will be that good. The last time we saw a team with that kind of talent, balance, and experience was the 2009 UNC team and the 2011-12 UNC team would be even better than '09 with Barnes. Coaching this team would be one of the smallest challenges Roy has ever faced.

Without Barnes UNC is still easily a Final Four caliber team and possibly a title team. They still have one of the top pg's in the country, a very powerful front court, and a plethora of scoring wings.

It's really an embarrassment of riches either way.

Once again, here you go talking up UNC. Even if Barnes returns, I don't see how UNC is any more talented than the 2011 version of Duke was. In fact, IMHO, I would take the 2011 Duke team in a match-up any day. This projected UNC team has ZERO final four experience, ZERO national title experience, ZERO championship experience of any kind! Heck, they have only played 4 NCAA tourney games ever....Tyler Zeller's part on the championship team in 2009 does not count because he has no impact on that season at all. Duke had arguably the best player in the country and easily the best point guard in the country, the two most experienced players in the country (both who are All-Americans), two of the most athletic big man, a scrappy defensive point guard, arguably two of the top 5 shooters in the nation, and the best coach to ever coach the game...and yet they still didn't win.

NO team is a shoe in ever, NO team is even a favorite against the field. What happens if Harrison Barnes breaks his foot in pre-season and is never the same player (a la Greg Paulus), or what if McAdoo takes a while to adjust to the college game like Barnes and Henson (who were both more highly rated I believe, but not by much), what if either Hairston, McDonald, or Strickland decides they are not seeing enough minutes and decide to pout like Drew, what if Roy continues to play everyone and overplays guys like Hubert, McDonald, and Watts, or what if the UNC team catches the flu come tournament time and plays ONE lackluster game, or if one team in the tournament just can't miss for most of the second half, or what if their talent is overrated to begin with. I thought you would have learned your lesson with Duke this year that NO team is ever a shoe in..but maybe if you have not you should revisit 2002 Duke, or 1999 Duke, or 1991 UNLV, or 2008 Memphis (37-1 coming in), etc..

ChicagoHeel
04-17-2011, 07:20 PM
"To Harrison Barnes: It’s awesome that you are starting to live up to all the pre-season hype (knock-on-wood), but are you really going to sit in class and Google yourself the whole time?"

http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2011/02/kvetching_board_for_february_18_2011

This is the story that was mentioned earlier in this thread as evidence of Barnes' arrogance? It's scarcely different than a tweet.

El_Diablo
04-17-2011, 08:29 PM
This is the story that was mentioned earlier in this thread as evidence of Barnes' arrogance? It's scarcely different than a tweet.

What do you want--a NYT article exploring his internet searches and the frequency with which he googles himself? :confused:

Regardless, I never said it was "evidence." I said others have implied that he is full of himself. And that column certainly implies that.

MartyClark
04-17-2011, 08:47 PM
Actually, I think the last time we saw a team with that kind of talent, balance, and experience was the 2010-11 Duke Blue Devils. Wasn't the real question before Kyrie got hurt whether we were going to go undefeated?

N.C. will be very good next year, with or without Barnes. There are no shoo ins in college basketball anymore. I hope N.C. is great next year. I hope they are undefeated when they play Duke for the first time. Sometimes, it is fun to be the perceived underdog and I won't bet against Coach K and Duke.

You simply can't predict the NCAA champion, with any degree of certainty, anymore. Next year will be a very interesting year for Duke. I look for good things.

jipops
04-17-2011, 09:33 PM
Once again, here you go talking up UNC. Even if Barnes returns, I don't see how UNC is any more talented than the 2011 version of Duke was. In fact, IMHO, I would take the 2011 Duke team in a match-up any day. This projected UNC team has ZERO final four experience, ZERO national title experience, ZERO championship experience of any kind! Heck, they have only played 4 NCAA tourney games ever....Tyler Zeller's part on the championship team in 2009 does not count because he has no impact on that season at all. Duke had arguably the best player in the country and easily the best point guard in the country, the two most experienced players in the country (both who are All-Americans), two of the most athletic big man, a scrappy defensive point guard, arguably two of the top 5 shooters in the nation, and the best coach to ever coach the game...and yet they still didn't win.


How much Final Four experience did the 2010 Duke team have? How many tournament wins did they have? How much did UConn have after their previous NIT season?



NO team is a shoe in ever, NO team is even a favorite against the field. What happens if Harrison Barnes breaks his foot in pre-season and is never the same player (a la Greg Paulus), or what if McAdoo takes a while to adjust to the college game like Barnes and Henson (who were both more highly rated I believe, but not by much), what if either Hairston, McDonald, or Strickland decides they are not seeing enough minutes and decide to pout like Drew, what if Roy continues to play everyone and overplays guys like Hubert, McDonald, and Watts, or what if the UNC team catches the flu come tournament time and plays ONE lackluster game, or if one team in the tournament just can't miss for most of the second half, or what if their talent is overrated to begin with. I thought you would have learned your lesson with Duke this year that NO team is ever a shoe in..but maybe if you have not you should revisit 2002 Duke, or 1999 Duke, or 1991 UNLV, or 2008 Memphis (37-1 coming in), etc..

Ok, I'll rephrase, Barring injury, UNC is a shoo-in. Yea, I know it is a grand statement. Believe me, I would love to put in some reverse jinx on these guys, but I'm just calling it like I see it. If everyone returns they have a multitude of known quantities, not a bunch of guys being hyped that haven't played college ball before. I just see a team with an enormous amount of talent that already gelled last year and has all the pieces that Roy needs. Roy often doesn't do very well when he has to compensate for a key weakness. There really is no real weakness that I see this time. And unlike 2011 Duke, UNC has more scoring ability in the post. There is just more balance there than existed for 2011 Duke.

Also - 2002 Duke was a sub-par defensive team having lost Battier and James. '91 UNLV and '08 Memphis did not play in power conferences. Memphis couldn't hit a ft if their lives depended on it. UNLV ran into a better team and Grant Hill :). '99 Duke was exposed by Cinci a bit early in the season.

I thought the exact same thing before the '08-'09 season, and unfortunately I was correct then.

dukeballboy88
04-17-2011, 10:06 PM
Duke will still be better than unc next year regardless of what barnes does.

BTW, my unc guys tell me that Barnes si going to make the announcement that he is coming back Wednesday at the unc banquet! He is so full of himself. Im glad he didnt go to Duke because I dont think he is as good as he thinks he is.

moonpie23
04-17-2011, 10:20 PM
so, do you tell the folks that are feeding you that you're leaving them?

how many guys announce they're leaving at the team banquet?

ChicagoHeel
04-17-2011, 10:38 PM
Duke will still be better than unc next year regardless of what barnes does.

BTW, my unc guys tell me that Barnes si going to make the announcement that he is coming back Wednesday at the unc banquet! He is so full of himself. Im glad he didnt go to Duke because I dont think he is as good as he thinks he is.

Ahh, more outstanding evidence that Barnes is full of himself. FYI, the UNC was banquet was last week.

burns15
04-17-2011, 10:38 PM
How much Final Four experience did the 2010 Duke team have? How many tournament wins did they have? How much did UConn have after their previous NIT season?



Ok, I'll rephrase, Barring injury, UNC is a shoo-in. Yea, I know it is a grand statement. Believe me, I would love to put in some reverse jinx on these guys, but I'm just calling it like I see it. If everyone returns they have a multitude of known quantities, not a bunch of guys being hyped that haven't played college ball before. I just see a team with an enormous amount of talent that already gelled last year and has all the pieces that Roy needs. Roy often doesn't do very well when he has to compensate for a key weakness. There really is no real weakness that I see this time. And unlike 2011 Duke, UNC has more scoring ability in the post. There is just more balance there than existed for 2011 Duke.

Also - 2002 Duke was a sub-par defensive team having lost Battier and James. '91 UNLV and '08 Memphis did not play in power conferences. Memphis couldn't hit a ft if their lives depended on it. UNLV ran into a better team and Grant Hill :). '99 Duke was exposed by Cinci a bit early in the season.

I thought the exact same thing before the '08-'09 season, and unfortunately I was correct then.

exposed? they went through the ACC 19-0, they were 37-1... how is that exposed?

sagegrouse
04-17-2011, 10:58 PM
How much Final Four experience did the 2010 Duke team have? How many tournament wins did they have? How much did UConn have after their previous NIT season?



Ok, I'll rephrase, Barring injury, UNC is a shoo-in. Yea, I know it is a grand statement. Believe me, I would love to put in some reverse jinx on these guys, but I'm just calling it like I see it. If everyone returns they have a multitude of known quantities, not a bunch of guys being hyped that haven't played college ball before. I just see a team with an enormous amount of talent that already gelled last year and has all the pieces that Roy needs. Roy often doesn't do very well when he has to compensate for a key weakness. There really is no real weakness that I see this time. And unlike 2011 Duke, UNC has more scoring ability in the post. There is just more balance there than existed for 2011 Duke.

Also - 2002 Duke was a sub-par defensive team having lost Battier and James. '91 UNLV and '08 Memphis did not play in power conferences. Memphis couldn't hit a ft if their lives depended on it. UNLV ran into a better team and Grant Hill :). '99 Duke was exposed by Cinci a bit early in the season.

I thought the exact same thing before the '08-'09 season, and unfortunately I was correct then.

Is it fair for us to ask you to make sense when you express a sweeping opinion? 2012 UNC will be the best college team since the 2009 UNC team? Hunh? UNC 2009, of course, lost four games and didn't win the ACC. (Gee. I wonder who did?)

UNC 2012 (presumably with Barnes) is a "shoo in" for the NCAA championship. This is, if you'll pardon my French, arrant nonsense. There are no shoo-ins in the NCAA tournament since the UCLA era.

I admit that "They have a multitude on known quantities," since everyone returns. But how does that cure the total lethargy that UNC displayed in the the three ACC tournament games and the first two NCAA games? It avoided ACC quarter and semi upsets through your basic miracles and then got run off the court by Duke.

Also, how does the presence of known quantities cure the absence of outside scoring and shooting, which was truly terrible, and the lack of any perimeter on-ball defense beyond Dexter Strickland? Uh, who is gonna guard Austin and Seth?

"Known quantities" and All-Americans are a different concept. UNC returns its players, but no one was first team All ACC, and certainly no one was on a major A-A team. Of course, if Barnes returns, he will be preseason A-A; there is tradition. HB was first team A-A his freshman year, so why not his sophomore year?

And, of course, what you said about Duke 1999 being "exposed by Cinci a bit" refers to a two-point loss in Anchorage in a midnight game in the month of November. My tendency is to heavily discount November games and Alaska/Hawaii/PR tournaments, and this was both. I thought Duke was a little flat in St. Pete in 1999, and letting UConn go out to an early ten-point lead was just horrible, even though Duke caught up by halftime. BUT THIS GOES BACK TO WHAT MOST OF US BELIEVE: THERE ARE NO SHOO-INS FOR NCAA CHAMPION.

The supposed weaker defense for Duke in 2002 was, you say, due to the loss of Battier and James. Most people believe the 2002 team was not as focused and determined as the 2001 team. Maybe it was the absence of Shane; maybe it was the distractions of being defending champion. But I remember at the end of the season CBS named its A-A team based on whom the announcers had seen -- JWill, Boozer and Dunleavy were all first team. Anyone ever remember a five-man college A-A team with three players from the same school? Moreover, Dahntay was added to the 2002 team, and he was an excellent defender. Both the 2001 and the 2002 lost four games. Maybe a miracle win against IU would have taken Duke to the title again. Who knows? Certainly the win over Maryland in Minneapolis in 2001 was a miracle from where I was sitting at the Metrodome. So just why do you conclude, somewhat dismissively, that 2002 was an inherently weaker team than 2001?

Anyway, if you persist with preposterous opinions without any supporting logic, I guess either you or I will have a less enjoyable stay on this Board than otherwise.

Sorry to be cranky -- I guess the accent was on the "grouse" not the "sage."

sagegrouse

Duvall
04-17-2011, 11:24 PM
If Barnes comes back, I bet UNC beats Miami by at least three points next year. Maybe even four.

Starter
04-18-2011, 01:21 AM
Ahh, more outstanding evidence that Barnes is full of himself.

The guy orchestrated a high school version of LeBron's Decision, where he said, without irony, that he was picking the college for him to "leave [his] legacy." He's sort of doing the same kind of thing right now. Maybe he really is some totally humble dude. But I find it hard to believe you wouldn't be able to understand how people would think he isn't.

Native
04-18-2011, 09:11 AM
He stays.

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/041811aaa.html

dukelifer
04-18-2011, 09:21 AM
He stays.

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/041811aaa.html

UNC with the big target this year- will be more fun to beat them.

Gewebe14
04-18-2011, 09:26 AM
http://aboverim.blogspot.com/

he's back, no more speculation... at least we get to mock him another year

Edit: oops missed that post above

NashvilleDevil
04-18-2011, 09:27 AM
The hand wringing from Duke fans I mean.

JasonEvans
04-18-2011, 09:31 AM
And I have (again) changed the title of the thread.

-Jason

cbnaylor
04-18-2011, 09:31 AM
Well it was nice hearing very little from UNC fans over the past two years. Looks like they will be back to their annoying little selfs.

RoyalBlue08
04-18-2011, 09:33 AM
It will be interesting to see how this decision affects UNC and Barnes career. UNC certainly is loaded with talent and expectations. Have fun with that UNC fans. Barnes will probably never be a higher pick than he would have been this year, unless of course his game grows. I honestly don't think he is going to improve a lot, he already does the things well that most players usually develop. But who knows, maybe time at college allows himself to take it to another level.

dukelifer
04-18-2011, 09:36 AM
Well it was nice hearing very little from UNC fans over the past two years. Looks like they will be back to their annoying little selfs.

Next year they will have their exodus and Duke may be the team to beat. The Yin and Yang of the Duke UNC rivalry. I still think they will stumble come tourney time unless they develop another ball handler. Still they will have their shares of big blowouts to be sure.

ChicagoHeel
04-18-2011, 09:37 AM
I read somewhere that Barnes is the only player ranked top 4 on both Scout and Rivals to stay 2 years. Each of the other fourteen was a one and done. He said from the beginning that he wanted an education and to leave a college legacy- I guess he meant it.

roywhite
04-18-2011, 09:37 AM
"As an 18-year old, I'm in the early stages of my life journey," Barnes says. "I'm honored and blessed for the chance to play in the NBA. And because of my family, teachers, passion, and work, I have the ultimate dream of one day playing and experiencing a fulfilling career in the NBA.

"Opportunities, both beneficial and life changing, can seem to make the next phase of my journey an easy decision


blah, blah, blah....

barf alert on the progress report of his journey for self-actualization

darjum
04-18-2011, 09:40 AM
If they discuss his choice in PTI they would say "very noble, but a big risk for top 5 pick". Hated seeing Kyrie leave, but realistically it was the wise thing to do. Hope for Harrison's sake that he doesn't suffer a bad injury...but I do hope that he shoots 30% from the field, averages under 5-6ppg and collects 1.5 reb and ast pg. But maybe that's just me being petty.

But to answer the threads question: Barnes officially announces he is staying at UNC...doesn't change how I already feel about UNC, a one dimensional coach who plays to a system that if he doesn't have NBA lottery talent at his disposal (particularly at point guard), then he is flat out of ideas.

cbnaylor
04-18-2011, 09:41 AM
Well I don't know about anybody else, but I'm pulling for Knight and Jones to come back to Kentucky. :)

darjum
04-18-2011, 09:46 AM
Well I don't know about anybody else, but I'm pulling for Knight and Jones to come back to Kentucky. :)

Not me! UK leaves a bad taste in the mouth, similar to that of the Miami Heat. Must be something about too much hair gel on their coaches and Team Presidents.

BD80
04-18-2011, 09:51 AM
Kudos to hb and to ol' roy. There's a reason this kid was a priority for us; this announcement is a glimpse. ol' roy must not be so bad if hb decided to stay rather than take tens of millions.

Still hate mj and can't understand how any kid would voluntarily choose to wear such an UGLY blue each and every day.

GTHCGTH.

jdj4duke
04-18-2011, 09:58 AM
It Begins- The hand wringing from Duke fans I mean.

Nope, no hand wringing for me. I agree with some old but true statements from Mr. Roy Williams; I don't give a s&#^& about North Carolina.

Fuqua's Finest
04-18-2011, 09:59 AM
Well. I'm for one am glad the drama is over with. It's going to be super satisfying watching Chapel Hill fans react once they lose their first game. Then it'll be even better material once they lose their 2nd game. Can you imagine the things we'll hear from the IC crowd:

Off with Roy's head!
Dadgum! Roy can't coach.
Roy should retire! He doesn't have it anymore.
Blah, Blah, Blah!!!

I am also glad the target is not on Duke this year. I'm sure we'll be Top 10 to start, but the pressure on Chapel Hill to go undefeated, sweep through the ACC regular season and Tourney, then steamroll everyone in their path to another NCAA Championship will be an enormous weight to bear all season. I would definitely compare this '11-12 team to the '09 team in terms of expectations. While we will always be Duke, if we lose a game it's no biggie. It will truly be fun enjoying a season without the bullseye.

NashvilleDevil
04-18-2011, 10:01 AM
Nope, no hand wringing for me. I agree with some old but true statements from Mr. Roy Williams; I don't give a s&#^& about North Carolina.

Should have said some that's on me.

DukeGirl4ever
04-18-2011, 10:03 AM
While we will always be Duke, if we lose a game it's no biggie. It will truly be fun enjoying a season without the bullseye.

Just like 2010...that season sure was fun.
I do think it is incredibly difficult to play an entire season with a target on your back. Few teams are able to uphold that expectation (Duke in '92 and the Florida team of recent back to back championships come to mind).

I like the underdog status....it fuels the fire! Looking forward to another exciting year next year.

geraldsneighbor
04-18-2011, 10:30 AM
Well, here's my effort to give you all a glass half full attitude. With Barnes, Sullinger, Jones, and others returning to school, it adds to the draft class of 2012. Which means, the likelihood of Austin Rivers playing two years at Duke, even if the age limit stays the same, improves.

Also, we get to cheer against Barnes for another season.

MChambers
04-18-2011, 10:35 AM
Well, here's my effort to give you all a glass half full attitude. With Barnes, Sullinger, Jones, and others returning to school, it adds to the draft class of 2012. Which means, the likelihood of Austin Rivers playing two years at Duke, even if the age limit stays the same, improves.

Also, we get to cheer against Barnes for another season.

We get to see our team beat Barnes's team for another season.

dukeballboy88
04-18-2011, 10:40 AM
I maybe on an island here but I for one think I would rather henson go pro over barns. henson is a game changer on the defensive end and it makes teams adjust what they do offensively. I dont think barnes is a good fit for hucks style of play and it may slow unc down having to run the offense through barnes

While barnes is a good player, 6'8" wing players that can put it on the floor and shoot grow on trees these days thats why huck told him he might fall out of the lottery. A player like henson is hard to find.

This could work out to Duke's advantage in the long run. If hb dont have a stellar season next year or gets hurt, it maybe a crushing blow for hucks recruiting going forward.

Reilly
04-18-2011, 10:43 AM
blah, blah, blah....

barf alert on the progress report of his journey for self-actualization

http://confidentwriting.com/2008/12/why-do-people-choose-to-use-long-words/

Off-putting game (stand around, smirk); off-putting press conferences; off-putting wordiness ....

ACniner
04-18-2011, 10:57 AM
Well. I'm for one am glad the drama is over with. It's going to be super satisfying watching Chapel Hill fans react once they lose their first game. Then it'll be even better material once they lose their 2nd game. Can you imagine the things we'll hear from the IC crowd:

Off with Roy's head!
Dadgum! Roy can't coach.
Roy should retire! He doesn't have it anymore.
Blah, Blah, Blah!!!

I am also glad the target is not on Duke this year. I'm sure we'll be Top 10 to start, but the pressure on Chapel Hill to go undefeated, sweep through the ACC regular season and Tourney, then steamroll everyone in their path to another NCAA Championship will be an enormous weight to bear all season. I would definitely compare this '11-12 team to the '09 team in terms of expectations. While we will always be Duke, if we lose a game it's no biggie. It will truly be fun enjoying a season without the bullseye.

I am also glad the drama is over with. Many Duke fans I know are constantly accusing UNC of being overly concerned with our program more than theirs when it comes to losses etc. I don't like seeing so many people fearing Barnes returning, or nit picking possible flaws with UNC next year either. I'm ready to see that first jump ball at Cameron, and we will deal with UNC when its time for that. UNC may very well live up to pre-season expectations and steam roll, or outside factors may give them a wake up call. Either way, as Duke fans, lets focus our attention on whats happening recruiting wise. This looks like one of the biggest and baddest reloading classes I can remember. I think we have some fun development to watch over the next couple of seasons.

sagegrouse
04-18-2011, 10:59 AM
Some advanced textual criticism, which I learned (?) in Religion 55, back in the day.


"As an 18-year old, I'm in the early stages of my life journey," Barnes says.

Oh, I get it: you didn't take a post-graduate year or repeat 8th grade. Therefore, you are young for your class. How nice and how irrelevant.


"I'm honored and blessed for the chance to play in the NBA. And because of my family, teachers, passion, and work, I have the ultimate dream of one day playing and experiencing a fulfilling career in the NBA.

Uh, you are returning to college. Seems like it should be "honored and blessed" not to have the chance to play in the NBA. Oh, I see. I have a fabulous opportunity, which I am turning down. Get over it, Skype Boy; these quotes should be addressing UNC and your teammates.


"Opportunities, both beneficial and life changing, can seem to make the next phase of my journey an easy decision.

What the "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" does this mean, except that "I am turning my back on tens of millons and sure fame." Didn't you also say that in the previous paragraph.


"But I am a student-athlete at the University of North Carolina. I'm here to experience college life, grow as a person, receive a quality education, and be part of the greatest basketball family in college sports.

"The experiences I've enjoyed on and off the court will be invaluable. These experiences will help fuel my journey in the NBA and beyond.

This is the only on-message quote in the whole article, and you buried it.



"I look forward to meeting the challenging journey in the NBA, but my decision on November 13, 2009, still holds true. I'm focused on being a student-athlete. And my decision is to continue this part of my journey at the University of North Carolina.

"As a team, we're preparing for a special season. My off-season plans are to diligently work on honing my basketball skills in all areas with one team-goal in mind -- to bring the 2012 national championship home to UNC."



Aha! World to Skypeboy: Don't say, the target is on my back. It's a mistake. It really puts the target on your teammates. And, since you do a lot of standing around on offense, that practice will now attract a lot more attention. And those miracle 3-point shots in the last couple of minutes are gonna be a lot harder to make.

sagegrouse

Mike Corey
04-18-2011, 10:59 AM
Barnes will gesticulate in Chapel Hill for another season? Bring it on.

Lord Ash
04-18-2011, 11:04 AM
Damn.

Well, up and down;

Up... now UNC fans will have to experience a season with the crushing expectations of a National Title making every loss seem like the end of the world. It can make a basketball season a lot less fun. See, Duke 2010-2011.

Down... now Duke fans can't relax until next March if/when Carolina goes out of the tournament.



Damn. Wish he had gone pro.

moonpie23
04-18-2011, 11:15 AM
Good......bring it...

Kedsy
04-18-2011, 11:16 AM
I read somewhere that Barnes is the only player ranked top 4 on both Scout and Rivals to stay 2 years. Each of the other fourteen was a one and done. He said from the beginning that he wanted an education and to leave a college legacy- I guess he meant it.

You mean ever? What about Josh McRoberts?

PADukeMom
04-18-2011, 11:33 AM
Good for him & UNC.

ChicagoHeel
04-18-2011, 11:36 AM
Some advanced textual criticism, which I learned (?) in Religion 55, back in the day.



Oh, I get it: you didn't take a post-graduate year or repeat 8th grade. Therefore, you are young for your class. How nice and how irrelevant.



Uh, you are returning to college. Seems like it should be "honored and blessed" not to have the chance to play in the NBA. Oh, I see. I have a fabulous opportunity, which I am turning down. Get over it, Skype Boy; these quotes should be addressing UNC and your teammates.



What the "Whiskey Tango Foxtrot" does this mean, except that "I am turning my back on tens of millons and sure fame." Didn't you also say that in the previous paragraph.



This is the only on-message quote in the whole article, and you buried it.



Aha! World to Skypeboy: Don't say, the target is on my back. It's a mistake. It really puts the target on your teammates. And, since you do a lot of standing around on offense, that practice will now attract a lot more attention. And those miracle 3-point shots in the last couple of minutes are gonna be a lot harder to make.

sagegrouse

Not to put too harsh a word on it, but this strikes me as petty. Congratulations, you just ripped apart the text of a college freshman- not very difficult to do.

WHile overall I commend DBR's level of civility, I'm honestly surprised I have seen so many of these type posts recently- poor attempts to belittle your opponent. It's my view that when UNC fans refer to "Sunglare" and "Ostentatious Rivers", it says more about them than their Duke opponents; same when Duke fans exaggerate trivial issues to demonize Heels. I really don't understand why more people can't say- "I don't like UNC, I want them to lose every game, I wish Barnes had left, but I respect their players and program". Maybe it's less fun if you are not tearing apart the character of your opponents, but I do feel like this board has somewhat loftier aspirations, which is part of the reason I'm drawn to it.

The reality is, if Barnes had chosen Duke, almost everyone here would have loved his work ethic, dedication to his teammates, subdued on-court demeanor, and his ability in the clutch. Had he announced a second year, DBR would have lauded his dedication to to the university, team, and education.

ChicagoHeel
04-18-2011, 11:37 AM
You mean ever? What about Josh McRoberts?

Sorry, I think it was in the last five years.

sagegrouse
04-18-2011, 11:41 AM
Not to put too harsh a word on it, but this strikes me as petty. Congratulations, you just ripped apart the text of a college freshman- not very difficult to do.

WHile overall I commend DBR's level of civility, I'm honestly surprised I have seen so many of these type posts recently- poor attempts to belittle your opponent. It's my view that when UNC fans refer to "Sunglare" and "Ostentatious Rivers", it says more about them than their Duke opponents; same when Duke fans exaggerate trivial issues to demonize Heels. I really don't understand why more people can't say- "I don't like UNC, I want them to lose every game, I wish Barnes had left, but I respect their players and program". Maybe it's less fun if you are not tearing apart the character of your opponents, but I do feel like this board has somewhat loftier aspirations, which is part of the reason I'm drawn to it.

The reality is, if Barnes had chosen Duke, almost everyone here would have loved his work ethic, dedication to his teammates, subdued on-court demeanor, and his ability in the clutch. Had he announced a second year, DBR would have lauded his dedication to to the university, team, and education.

Your comment is fair, but didn't the UNC SID put out the release and isn't its job to make UNC and Barnes look good?

sagegrouse

X-Man
04-18-2011, 11:46 AM
I read somewhere that Barnes is the only player ranked top 4 on both Scout and Rivals to stay 2 years. Each of the other fourteen was a one and done. He said from the beginning that he wanted an education and to leave a college legacy- I guess he meant it.


You mean ever? What about Josh McRoberts?

What about Kyle Singler? http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&yr=2007

CDu
04-18-2011, 11:48 AM
What about Kyle Singler? http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&yr=2007

He was only #5 in Rivals, so he didn't make the list of players who were top-4 in both Scout and Rivals.

Wander
04-18-2011, 11:51 AM
What about Kyle Singler? http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=9&c=4&cfg=bb&yr=2007

Singler was just barely out of the Top 4 in both rivals and scout. But pretty damn close, and also awesome that a consensus top 6 recruit stayed FOUR years.

Faison1
04-18-2011, 11:52 AM
BOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!

Boo, I say.

I've been booing that kid for 2 years now. Dating back to Novemebr of 2009, I think.

Class of '94
04-18-2011, 11:54 AM
Not to put too harsh a word on it, but this strikes me as petty. Congratulations, you just ripped apart the text of a college freshman- not very difficult to do.

WHile overall I commend DBR's level of civility, I'm honestly surprised I have seen so many of these type posts recently- poor attempts to belittle your opponent. It's my view that when UNC fans refer to "Sunglare" and "Ostentatious Rivers", it says more about them than their Duke opponents; same when Duke fans exaggerate trivial issues to demonize Heels. I really don't understand why more people can't say- "I don't like UNC, I want them to lose every game, I wish Barnes had left, but I respect their players and program". Maybe it's less fun if you are not tearing apart the character of your opponents, but I do feel like this board has somewhat loftier aspirations, which is part of the reason I'm drawn to it.

The reality is, if Barnes had chosen Duke, almost everyone here would have loved his work ethic, dedication to his teammates, subdued on-court demeanor, and his ability in the clutch. Had he announced a second year, DBR would have lauded his dedication to to the university, team, and education.

You've made some fair comments; but to be completely fair, there have been many posters here that agreed and supported Kyrie leaving for the NBA because it made complete financial sense. Now, were there posters that didn't want Kyrie to leave or would DBR have erupted with excitement had Kyrie chosen to stay? Of course......But that said, I found that that there was a lot of support for Kyrie's decision to go pro.

As far as Barnes and UNC is concerned, I strongly dislike UNC with a passion, and after what Mike Corey divulged in an earlier post, I honestly don't have a lot of respect for Barnes as a person in how he handled his recruiting announcement (and if a duke recruit had did the same thing, I'd same the same thing about that recruit); but I respect UNC as a team and program; and I respect Barnes as a player. I think UNC will be really good; and I give Barnes credit for staying another year in school to develop and enjoy campus life. Personally, I think he needed to stay to develop more because I didn't think his first season lived up to the hype until a little bit towards the end. The jury is out with me in terms of how dominant this UNC will be; but I look forward to matching up with them and seeing how well Roy can mesh the talent together.

And as Mike Corey and Moonpie have said, Bring it on!!!!!!!!

roywhite
04-18-2011, 11:56 AM
2005 RSCI consensus rankings (http://www.rscihoops.com/)

FWIW, both Josh McR and Tyler H-brough were top 4 consensus in 2005; Josh stayed 2 yrs and TH 4 years.

gumbomoop
04-18-2011, 12:28 PM
Both UNC and Duke will have loads of talent and depth next season. Can't deny that UNC has clear edge in proven-experienced-talent, but Duke is solid, too.

Even if Daniels goes elsewhere [and Murphy either stays in HS or redshirts], K will have:

- 5 bigs [MP1,2,3,RK,JH]
- 2 wings [AD,MG]
- 2 combo guards [SC,AR]
- 2 PGs [TT,QC]

K is unlikely to play 11 guys by mid-season, so it will be interesting to see:
- whether Josh and Michael get some PT late-season
- whether TT or QC moves ahead in the PG-PT sweepsteaks
- whether K might play 9-10 guys in rotation, depending on opponent and game situation


Now, Roy has a way-full roster, maybe 13 guys:

- 5 bigs [TZ,JH,JM,Jackson Simmons,Desmond Hubert]
- a zillion wings [HB, LM, RB, PJH, JW-no longer a PF!]
- a sorta combo guard [DS]
- 2 PGs [KM, Stilman White]

Roy's pattern is to play lots of guys, to the recent consternation of UNC fans, who, in retrospect, are soooooo [justifiably] happy the Wears and Drew became Bruins. Was it a coincidence that UNC played so well with fewer guys? Was it all just because of that one particular fewer guy? [Actually, maybe yes.]

Anyhow, I will be interested in:

- whether anyone redshirts
- whether anyone transfers [I'd have bet that LM would have transferred by now, but, due to transfer/injury attrition, by golly, he got good PT, and may be ahead of both RB and PJH, for all I know]
- whether White actually is the backup PG, or Roy goes with DS for 6-7 mpg; KM simply has to - has to - play 32-34 mpg [and has to - has to- stay healthy]
- most interesting, whether Roy plays 10-11 guys into NCAAT; will Simmons or Hubert actually take even a few minutes from TZ/JH/JM late season? [Is Roy nuts?] Does Justin Watts disappear, or play 7-10 mpg? Lotta talent ahead of him, and no one has suggested he's a glue guy.

jipops
04-18-2011, 12:35 PM
Is it fair for us to ask you to make sense when you express a sweeping opinion? 2012 UNC will be the best college team since the 2009 UNC team? Hunh? UNC 2009, of course, lost four games and didn't win the ACC. (Gee. I wonder who did?)

UNC 2012 (presumably with Barnes) is a "shoo in" for the NCAA championship. This is, if you'll pardon my French, arrant nonsense. There are no shoo-ins in the NCAA tournament since the UCLA era.

I admit that "They have a multitude on known quantities," since everyone returns. But how does that cure the total lethargy that UNC displayed in the the three ACC tournament games and the first two NCAA games? It avoided ACC quarter and semi upsets through your basic miracles and then got run off the court by Duke.

Also, how does the presence of known quantities cure the absence of outside scoring and shooting, which was truly terrible, and the lack of any perimeter on-ball defense beyond Dexter Strickland? Uh, who is gonna guard Austin and Seth?

"Known quantities" and All-Americans are a different concept. UNC returns its players, but no one was first team All ACC, and certainly no one was on a major A-A team. Of course, if Barnes returns, he will be preseason A-A; there is tradition. HB was first team A-A his freshman year, so why not his sophomore year?

And, of course, what you said about Duke 1999 being "exposed by Cinci a bit" refers to a two-point loss in Anchorage in a midnight game in the month of November. My tendency is to heavily discount November games and Alaska/Hawaii/PR tournaments, and this was both. I thought Duke was a little flat in St. Pete in 1999, and letting UConn go out to an early ten-point lead was just horrible, even though Duke caught up by halftime. BUT THIS GOES BACK TO WHAT MOST OF US BELIEVE: THERE ARE NO SHOO-INS FOR NCAA CHAMPION.

The supposed weaker defense for Duke in 2002 was, you say, due to the loss of Battier and James. Most people believe the 2002 team was not as focused and determined as the 2001 team. Maybe it was the absence of Shane; maybe it was the distractions of being defending champion. But I remember at the end of the season CBS named its A-A team based on whom the announcers had seen -- JWill, Boozer and Dunleavy were all first team. Anyone ever remember a five-man college A-A team with three players from the same school? Moreover, Dahntay was added to the 2002 team, and he was an excellent defender. Both the 2001 and the 2002 lost four games. Maybe a miracle win against IU would have taken Duke to the title again. Who knows? Certainly the win over Maryland in Minneapolis in 2001 was a miracle from where I was sitting at the Metrodome. So just why do you conclude, somewhat dismissively, that 2002 was an inherently weaker team than 2001?

Anyway, if you persist with preposterous opinions without any supporting logic, I guess either you or I will have a less enjoyable stay on this Board than otherwise.

Sorry to be cranky -- I guess the accent was on the "grouse" not the "sage."

sagegrouse

Fair enough, but I don't think my own bold prediction should make you cranky in any way.

We heard from various analysts this past season and the season before that there were no truly great college teams. In fact, Bilas is someone who made this point quite often. UNC 2012 will be very similar to 2009 in that they have a combination of next-level talent AND experience (2009 UNC has 2 starters on NBA playoff teams and 2 other guys earning NBA paychecks). It is my belief that we will be seeing a great team. And unfortunately one that we really don't like.

The lethargy that UNC displayed in the ACC tournament? How is that cured? How about an added year of experience? How did Duke cure their propensity for early tournament exits before 2010 which included a dismantling at the hands of Villanova? Experience.

As for UNC's poor outside shooting from this past season. Leslie McDonald had already become a cure for that in the latter part of the season. We'll see what happens now with Bullock, admittedly not a known quantity at this point. How do we know Dexter will not have improved. Barnes proved to be an excellent perimeter scorer. They will have one of the best point guards in the country with arguably the nations top front court. Guys are going to get easy looks.

UNC's defense was ranked 6th according to kenpom. With everyone back isn't it likely it will be no worse than the same? Probably better?

Why do I conclude, "somewhat dismissively", that 2002 was an inherently weaker team than 2001? This is kind of a tangent discussion isn't it? But just to point out one facet - Dunleavy replaced Battier at the 4 spot. Does anyone really believe we were able to maintain defensive effectiveness on the interior with that change? Yes Dahntay was a defensive asset. I am not being dismissive here. I do think the pressure of repeating does make things harder too.

I know I used the term "shoo in" rather cavalierly. But since I used it I have to stick with it. If I were to pick a champ for 2012 in a non-biased manner - UNC would be my pick without hesitation but with much trepidation. This in no way changes how much I'll follow my own team. I think Duke has excellent possibilities and it should be very interesting to see just how the team and its personalities develop. But that isn't the topic of this thread.

I respect your opinions and you seem to be one of the more informed posters on this board so I would hate for my opinion on this subject to make your board visit a poor experience and I don't see why it would. It's not like I was disparaging or meant to disparage anything about my own team.

DevilWearsPrada
04-18-2011, 12:35 PM
Unc will be locked and loaded next season!

I didn't hear how Harry Barnes announced that he was staying at Unc for his soph year.

Did he skype it? Or do something dramatic? Or did Carolina just realease it?

Chris Randolph
04-18-2011, 12:37 PM
UNC should be preseason #1 in the nation. They could be really really special by seasons end. But we know, unfortunately, all it takes is one toe to derail a championship season :)

ACniner
04-18-2011, 12:40 PM
Both UNC and Duke will have loads of talent and depth next season. Can't deny that UNC has clear edge in proven-experienced-talent, but Duke is solid, too.
.

Thats exactly on point. I think some fans can't see the forest from the trees. Granted, Duke will have lots of questions about how these freshmen develop. With that being said, you almost have to expect some major leaps from Dawkins, Curry, Plumlee X2. I really began to respect the Plums towards the end with the effort they showed compared to earlier times. Kelly really began to come into his own, and I have no doubts he will improve his strength and shot over the summer. Sure we lost two of the best players to ever put the uniform on at Duke, and that hurts. The thing is, we have a really solid core of experience combined with a dynamic player like Rivers. It's almost scary to think of how explosive Dawkins/Curry/Rivers could be if they get hot. Now that I have that bad Arizona taste out of my mouth, I am eager to see this squad in action next year, and I think they aren't as far below UNC as some writers have you believe.

DukieinSoCal
04-18-2011, 12:41 PM
I keep searching for the silver linings in all of this and the only one I can find is that Nolan and Kyle will get drafted higher as a result of all these guys coming back to school. I can think think of at least 5 guys - Sullinger, Perry Jones, the 3 UNC kids - that likely would have been picked ahead of our 2 seniors. Now, they're much closer to first round status and guaranteed contracts. Good for them. They certainly deserve it.

Chris Randolph
04-18-2011, 12:45 PM
Could be over reaction, could be truth but more and more I'm disappointed that Kyrie left early. Guys with the same NBA opportunity as Kyrie turning it down to get better and enjoy being in college. And you'd think playing for K and Duke would be the ultimate thing you'd want to stay an extra year for. Thought Kyrie was more of the type of person who'd stay in college, as opposed to say Barnes, Henson, Sullinger or Baylor's frosh

ACniner
04-18-2011, 12:50 PM
Could be over reaction, could be truth but more and more I'm disappointed that Kyrie left early. Guys with the same NBA opportunity as Kyrie turning it down to get better and enjoy being in college. And you'd think playing for K and Duke would be the ultimate thing you'd want to stay an extra year for. Thought Kyrie was more of the type of person who'd stay in college, as opposed to say Barnes, Henson, Sullinger or Baylor's frosh

Who really knows what all goes through a kid's mind when they have to make this decision. Although those you mention were very high picks, I think Kyrie still had the biggest reason to leave. He really has less questions about his game than some of those guys, and if his dream is to be in the NBA, he should go when he has a solid chance at a number one pick.

MChambers
04-18-2011, 12:54 PM
Could be over reaction, could be truth but more and more I'm disappointed that Kyrie left early. Guys with the same NBA opportunity as Kyrie turning it down to get better and enjoy being in college. And you'd think playing for K and Duke would be the ultimate thing you'd want to stay an extra year for. Thought Kyrie was more of the type of person who'd stay in college, as opposed to say Barnes, Henson, Sullinger or Baylor's frosh
I understand your reaction, but I think you need to bear in mind that Irving is very likely the first pick in the draft. The others are not. At best, they'd go in the 3-5 range.

Don't get me wrong - I think there are great arguments for staying in school, even in Irving's circumstances. But I don't think you should compare his decision to that of Mr. Barnes.

Devilsfan
04-18-2011, 12:58 PM
It will be that much more enjoyable when we beat them and when they go out early in the big dance.

Dr. Rosenrosen
04-18-2011, 12:59 PM
You have to wonder if this doesn't make it tougher for KI. One the one hand, the more guys who return, the more his top draft position is solidified. On the other hand, the more guys who return, the more it has to raise questions in his own mind, especially now with HB coming back. He may feel like he is missing an awful lot by leaving.

Chris Randolph
04-18-2011, 01:12 PM
Gotta give credit to Roy Williams. His top 3 recruits for the 2011-12 season were Zeller, Henson and Barnes :)

ChicagoHeel
04-18-2011, 01:22 PM
I understand your reaction, but I think you need to bear in mind that Irving is very likely the first pick in the draft. The others are not. At best, they'd go in the 3-5 range.

Don't get me wrong - I think there are great arguments for staying in school, even in Irving's circumstances. But I don't think you should compare his decision to that of Mr. Barnes.

I agree. On the one hand, there was a different mindset coming in. Barnes always indicated that he wanted to stay more than one year. But there is also the question of skills. As good as Barnes is, it is relatively easy to point to aspects of his game that need improvement (e.g. ball handling). KI's game is really much more NBA-ready than Barnes'. As a lower pick with a less developed skill-set, it was a different decision for Barnes.

mkirsh
04-18-2011, 01:25 PM
UNC fans, where is the outrage? We all know the only way someone forgoes the NBA to come back to school is if the head coach selfishly manipulates them into staying. I trust there will be a series of angry letters to Coach Williams for putting his personal agenda above HB's career?

oldnavy
04-18-2011, 01:37 PM
http://confidentwriting.com/2008/12/why-do-people-choose-to-use-long-words/

Off-putting game (stand around, smirk); off-putting press conferences; off-putting wordiness ....

Does anyone would seriously believe HB wrote that statement? Not a slam on HB per se, but that is a polished and professional piece of public relations.

Just like ol' Roy and his good ol boy act, HB tries just a little too hard for me.... I can't really warm up to him.

cbnaylor
04-18-2011, 01:38 PM
UNC fans, where is the outrage? We all know the only way someone forgoes the NBA to come back to school is if the head coach selfishly manipulates them into staying. I trust there will be a series of angry letters to Coach Williams for putting his personal agenda above HB's career?

LOL.....this is SO true. I love how it's April 18th 6 months until it starts up again but here in NC, it never goes away. 24/7

oldnavy
04-18-2011, 01:45 PM
Not to put too harsh a word on it, but this strikes me as petty. Congratulations, you just ripped apart the text of a college freshman- not very difficult to do.

WHile overall I commend DBR's level of civility, I'm honestly surprised I have seen so many of these type posts recently- poor attempts to belittle your opponent. It's my view that when UNC fans refer to "Sunglare" and "Ostentatious Rivers", it says more about them than their Duke opponents; same when Duke fans exaggerate trivial issues to demonize Heels. I really don't understand why more people can't say- "I don't like UNC, I want them to lose every game, I wish Barnes had left, but I respect their players and program". Maybe it's less fun if you are not tearing apart the character of your opponents, but I do feel like this board has somewhat loftier aspirations, which is part of the reason I'm drawn to it.

The reality is, if Barnes had chosen Duke, almost everyone here would have loved his work ethic, dedication to his teammates, subdued on-court demeanor, and his ability in the clutch. Had he announced a second year, DBR would have lauded his dedication to to the university, team, and education.

Nope. I never did like Christian Laettner. I liked the fact that he won a lot of games for Duke, but I could never defend his personality....

Barnes is smug. He played the Duke fan base and coaches during his recruitment, and of course his method of announcing was way over the top, so don't be surprised that there is no love loss on this board for him...

And honesty, I am glad that HB, TZ and JH are all returning. I think they need to. I have said over and over, I wish the kids would stay in school and enjoy the ride a little longer... but it is each individuals choice and no fan can make it for them. Best of luck to UNC next year, you should have a really good season.

sandinmyshoes
04-18-2011, 01:45 PM
UNC will be very good next year, but there's still not a lot of power in the paint. Lots of finesse types with Zeller, Henson and McAdoo.

Of course, if their three point shooting improves this season, and it should, that will create more opportunity for their bigs. With the usual natural progression for three point shooters, and the addition of McAdoo (high post) and Hairston, their perimeter game just about has to get better. Now it's a matter of how much.

I worry that McAdoo stayed in high school when he could have come to college early. I mean, it may be good for him and society ect, but it could be bad for us if it means he'll also be inclined to do so in college as well.

J4Kop99
04-18-2011, 01:51 PM
I agree. On the one hand, there was a different mindset coming in. Barnes always indicated that he wanted to stay more than one year. But there is also the question of skills. As good as Barnes is, it is relatively easy to point to aspects of his game that need improvement (e.g. ball handling). KI's game is really much more NBA-ready than Barnes'. As a lower pick with a less developed skill-set, it was a different decision for Barnes.

Ok... Kyrie played 8 games! We have absolutely no idea of what weaknesses he may or may not have. Also... take into consideration that Barnes was the main guy on UNC, coming in as a freshman. That is 5X as much pressure as Kyrie had on him. Kyrie was surrounded by vets and 2 pre-season all-americans. All he had to do was go out there and play. Barnes had to lead a team of young players who played in the NIT the previous season... that is absolutely ridiculous to think about. That's not even taking into account the added pressure that his coach and others put on him by labeling him as a preseason all-american.

There are some brilliant posters on here... but there is also an equal amount of blind, duke homers who will never give credit to anyone, unless they wear the Duke blue. I love Duke, always have, always will. I hate Carolina. Having said that, I still can see past all of the BS and understand how great of a thing Harrison Barnes is doing for his program. Our main guy did not choose to do that. Paint it whichever way you want, but it's the truth.

It amazes me that some of you still call Harrison Barnes out for something he did 2 years ago... yet whenever anyone from Duke makes any mistake, it's always because they are still young and aren't mature enough and on and on and on....

If it makes you all feel a little better, report my posts as being anti-duke or inappropriate... I have never seen a message board, compiled of mostly grown, well-educated adults, as pretentious as DBR. We as Duke fans have received that label for decades now, and after reading/posting on this website for over a year, I am reminded as to why the label sticks.


-Next year:

We will not be as talented as UNC, they will be the favorites by a large margin.

Our star freshman will not return. UNC's will. (I respect the hell out of Barnes for that)

We will have trouble finding a player to lead us... UNC will not.


These points frustrate many Duke fans... and for good reason. With that said, it does not mean they are false. Digging deeper, it will not make those points go away even if you continue making fun of an 18 year old Harrison Barnes for skyping his recruiting decision.


--We are in a very similar position to UNC coming into last year. Let' hope it works out as well(or even better) for us, as it did them.

SoCalDukeFan
04-18-2011, 01:54 PM
We have Coach K.

Without Kyle and Nolan next year's team will need a new identity and without Kyrie one that is totally new. Certainly difficult but one that the staff should find the task challenging and rewarding.

I think its going to be a lot of fun watching the team grew and develop.

UNC will be very very good but there will be other teams that at least very good. With physical play and the three point shot any college team can get upset.

Go Duke

SoCa;

Starter
04-18-2011, 02:15 PM
You know, I, for one, have zero guilt about not particularly liking Harrison Barnes based on what I perceive from my living room. I don't have to like everyone, and the tone of the quotes in his release pretty much do him justice, IMO. I still think there's a decent chance he orchestrated this announcement like I originally said -- just sayin'. It's not like I'm making fun of how he looks or something. And though playing for UNC certainly doesn't help my opinion of Barnes, I'm not so certain I'd like him even if he played for Duke. I didn't like the condescending tone of his announcement even before the Skype stunt and hanging the other coaches out to dry. He came off the same way to me two days ago at the Jordan Classic, earnestly talking about how he hadn't made his mind up yet or some such. I guess it just came to him Monday morning. There have been players at Duke who I flat-out didn't like when they were there, even guys I knew personally. And there have been players at UNC I've liked very much -- Lawson, Forte and Kendall Marshall come to mind.


I agree. On the one hand, there was a different mindset coming in. Barnes always indicated that he wanted to stay more than one year. But there is also the question of skills. As good as Barnes is, it is relatively easy to point to aspects of his game that need improvement (e.g. ball handling). KI's game is really much more NBA-ready than Barnes'. As a lower pick with a less developed skill-set, it was a different decision for Barnes.

That said, I do mostly agree with this. Add in Irving's catastrophic injury, and these are far different situations. And it's true, it's not like Barnes hasn't been saying all along he could potentially even stay for three years and graduate.

In terms of him working on stuff, it can't hurt. I mean, he scored 40 in a game and he's a gym rat, so I think he'd be ready now if he wanted to be. But this would most definitely make him a more seasoned player when he does declare; even if the draft is loaded next year, he'd still go high. Note that as a pretty certain top 5 pick, I'd encourage just about anyone to go. But if he wants to add a National Title to his resume and life experiences, this would be about the best shot anyone could ever have. And even if that doesn't come to pass, like CH said, a year more of seasoning certainly isn't a bad thing.

burns15
04-18-2011, 02:24 PM
For all those talking about how unstoppable UNC will be next year, remember that they will not be nearly as experienced as the team that won it all in 2009.
A comparison
PG -- Lawson was a yr older than Marshall (Lawson by far the better player)
SG -- Ellington and Strickland are both juniors (Ellington by far the better player)
SF -- Ginyard was a year older than Barnes (Barnes by far the better player).. i know ginyard got hurt but he provided senior leadership nonetheless
PF -- Thompson and henson both juniors (Henson by a bit)
C -- Hans and zeller both seniors (hans by far the better player)

Bench
G Frasor is a yr older than McDonald (different players, but I'll take Frasor b/c of experience)
G Drew and Hairston both freshmen (Hairston is the better player, but Drew wasn't bad his frosh year)
G Graves and Bullock are both sophomores (I'd say this is a push, Bullock could take the advantage if his knee is healthy and he plays to his potential, but right now both are spot up shooters)
F Davis and McAdoo are both freshmen (push)
F Green is 3 yrs older than Watts (Green by a large margin)
Watts didnt play his frehsmen year much

Edge, by far to 2009 UNC...and they didn't win the ACC

ChicagoHeel
04-18-2011, 02:36 PM
For all those talking about how unstoppable UNC will be next year, remember that they will not be nearly as experienced as the team that won it all in 2009.
A comparison
PG -- Lawson was a yr older than Marshall (Lawson by far the better player)
SG -- Ellington and Strickland are both juniors (Ellington by far the better player)
SF -- Ginyard was a year older than Barnes (Barnes by far the better player).. i know ginyard got hurt but he provided senior leadership nonetheless
PF -- Thompson and henson both juniors (Henson by a bit)
C -- Hans and zeller both seniors (hans by far the better player)

Bench
G Frasor is a yr older than McDonald (different players, but I'll take Frasor b/c of experience)
G Drew and Hairston both freshmen (Hairston is the better player, but Drew wasn't bad his frosh year)
G Graves and Bullock are both sophomores (I'd say this is a push, Bullock could take the advantage if his knee is healthy and he plays to his potential, but right now both are spot up shooters)
F Davis and McAdoo are both freshmen (push)
F Green is 3 yrs older than Watts (Green by a large margin)
Watts didnt play his frehsmen year much

Edge, by far to 2009 UNC...and they didn't win the ACC

This is pretty true and another reason why you can't just hand UNC the crown now. THrow in the fact that the competition is stiffer and there is again reason to pause before making strong claims about UNC's title chances. One thing though, you seem to be ranking players based on offense. Rate them in terms of defense and the incoming team is better at almost every position.

hudlow
04-18-2011, 02:42 PM
Gonna be a lot of big heads wearing baby blue next year. I don't think ol' Roy is capable of stroking everyone's ego enough to promote healthy chemistry.

Harrison Barnes may be the greatest basketball player of all times....He's already up there with Jordan...

miramar
04-18-2011, 02:49 PM
This is pretty true and another reason why you can't just hand UNC the crown now. Throw in the fact that the competition is stiffer and there is again reason to pause before making strong claims about UNC's title chances. One thing though, you seem to be ranking players based on offense. Rate them in terms of defense and the incoming team is better at almost every position.

While you have to give Carolina credit for winning the ACC regular season and getting to the Elite 8, this was not a dominant team. We should expect them to be better next year, but if Rivers is as good as advertised (and if the big men step up, which I fully expect) then Duke will be more than competitive. Duke could not match up with UNC during Hansbrough's senior season, but I think 2011-12 will be very different.

davekay1971
04-18-2011, 02:51 PM
This is pretty true and another reason why you can't just hand UNC the crown now. THrow in the fact that the competition is stiffer and there is again reason to pause before making strong claims about UNC's title chances. One thing though, you seem to be ranking players based on offense. Rate them in terms of defense and the incoming team is better at almost every position.

I also think Henson is much, much better than Deon Thompson, particularly at the defensive end of the floor. Given another year in the weight room, a stronger, more experienced Henson is going to be a very, very good player. Probably more productive on offense, and a guy who is already a defensive and rebounding beast. Short and sweet - Henson could be a superstar next year, a description that could never be applied to Deon Thompson.

That being said, I'm far from ready to hand the crown to UNC. They return everybody and add good frosh, but they are still a team that had a lot of narrow wins in the ACC, got crushed by some random team in the ACC tournament, and made the elite 8 by playing 2 weaker teams at home and beating a pretty mediocre 11 seed. This sounds like I'm dismissing their accomplishments - I'm not. They had a good year but were not a great team even by the end of the season. For UNC to win the ACC championship or national championship, they're going to have to improve a lot of areas. You can see the potential, but, right now, it's all potential...just like Duke.

miramar
04-18-2011, 02:54 PM
Harrison Barnes may be the greatest basketball player of all times....He's already up there with Jordan...

Mike's legally changed his name to Michael Harrison Jordan.

CDu
04-18-2011, 02:58 PM
For all those talking about how unstoppable UNC will be next year, remember that they will not be nearly as experienced as the team that won it all in 2009.
A comparison
PG -- Lawson was a yr older than Marshall (Lawson by far the better player)
SG -- Ellington and Strickland are both juniors (Ellington by far the better player)
SF -- Ginyard was a year older than Barnes (Barnes by far the better player).. i know ginyard got hurt but he provided senior leadership nonetheless
PF -- Thompson and henson both juniors (Henson by a bit)
C -- Hans and zeller both seniors (hans by far the better player)

Bench
G Frasor is a yr older than McDonald (different players, but I'll take Frasor b/c of experience)
G Drew and Hairston both freshmen (Hairston is the better player, but Drew wasn't bad his frosh year)
G Graves and Bullock are both sophomores (I'd say this is a push, Bullock could take the advantage if his knee is healthy and he plays to his potential, but right now both are spot up shooters)
F Davis and McAdoo are both freshmen (push)
F Green is 3 yrs older than Watts (Green by a large margin)
Watts didnt play his frehsmen year much

Edge, by far to 2009 UNC...and they didn't win the ACC

I'd drop Ginyard since he basically sat out the 2009 season. But you can then replace Ginyard with Green (a senior) in the starting lineup. It's still a step down from Barnes, but not as big (and just as experienced). Green wasn't 3 years older than Watts will be (Watts will be a senior). But Watts may or may not even see the court next year, so that comparison wasn't relevant anyway.

But you do have a point in terms of experience. One thing that the 2009 UNC team will have that the 2012 team won't is that the main guys (Hansbrough, Lawson, Ellington, Green, Thompson) will have played together for 2+ years coming into the season. Next year's core group (Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Strickland, Marshall) will have had one year playing together. Another major difference is that the top-end talent at PG and in the post was better on the 2009 team. Marshall and Zeller are both very good (All-ACC caliber) players, but neither has shown the level of dominance that Lawson and Hansbrough showed.

That doesn't mean that UNC won't still be arguably the best team in the country. It just means a little more variability in any given game. That matters when talking about single-elimination tournaments.

roywhite
04-18-2011, 03:03 PM
No doubt UNC has considerable talent returning, and some good additions, enough to rank as the ACC favorite and possible #1 nationally (depending some on decisions from Kentucky). Zeller, Henson, Barnes, and McAdoo comprise quite a front court.

Seems to me their main question marks remain:
Do they have good outside shooting?
Can they defend well on the perimeter?

Outside shooting could come from Barnes, Bullock, Hairston, and possibly Marshall, though none has proven consistency from 3-pt range.

Perimeter defense can come from Strickland, though he was not an outside shooting threat. Barnes can be an effective defender on some perimeter players, and Bullock could contribute there, too. Marshall is perhaps a step slow.

Who best to beat such a team? Maybe a team with several good outside shooters, say like Curry, Dawkins, Kelly, and Rivers with Cook and Gbinije as additional possibilities.

Should be interesting.

CDu
04-18-2011, 03:16 PM
No doubt UNC has considerable talent returning, and some good additions, enough to rank as the ACC favorite and possible #1 nationally (depending some on decisions from Kentucky). Zeller, Henson, Barnes, and McAdoo comprise quite a front court.

Seems to me their main question marks remain:
Do they have good outside shooting?
Can they defend well on the perimeter?

Outside shooting could come from Barnes, Bullock, Hairston, and possibly Marshall, though none has proven consistency from 3-pt range.

Perimeter defense can come from Strickland, though he was not an outside shooting threat. Barnes can be an effective defender on some perimeter players, and Bullock could contribute there, too. Marshall is perhaps a step slow.

Who best to beat such a team? Maybe a team with several good outside shooters, say like Curry, Dawkins, Kelly, and Rivers with Cook and Gbinije as additional possibilities.

Should be interesting.

Additional questions will include:
1. will they have quality depth at PG - Strickland and the incoming freshman PG have not shown that they can run the position in Marshall's absence.
2. will they have enough depth in the post - they'll have at least 4 bigs next year, but McAdoo is unproven and the other guy is not highly rated.

These questions may not end up mattering if Marshall, Zeller, and Henson are able to stay on the floor enough. But they remain questions.

That said, it's always nice to have 4 returning players who are already All-ACC caliber and a load of talent alongside those 4 players. UNC currently has fewer questions (and more good answers) than anyone else in the ACC.

Duvall
04-18-2011, 03:41 PM
This is odd (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811).


The phone rang around 6 p.m. or so on New Year’s Eve.

The caller ID read: Harrison Barnes.

North Carolina’s highly touted freshman had only 13 games under his belt and was struggling, at least according to the expectations. He was averaging only 12.1 points and was shooting 36 percent from the field.

His buddy, Duke freshman Kyrie Irving, dominated out of the gates down the road, but the adjustment for Barnes took time. Now, Barnes was searching for answers.

The consensus No. 1 player in the freshman class coming out of high school in Ames, Iowa, had three questions for me.

1. Did I think he still had a shot of being an All-American?

2. Did he still have a chance of being the national Player of the Year?

3. Most important, did I think the North Carolina Tar Heels could cut down the nets?

CDu
04-18-2011, 03:53 PM
This is odd (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/harrison-barnes-has-unfinished-business-at-north-carolina-041811).

That is certainly odd. Strange that Barnes would be calling Goodman to ask these questions.

If that's an accurate recollection of actual events, it would seem that Barnes set both personal and team goals that may be tricky to achieve. In fact, one of those goals (PoY) could potentially conflict with the team's goals (it may make more sense to go to Zeller/Henson more). But that would certainly explain why he'd want to return if he felt he had unfinished business.

That being said, the next step in speculation (assuming of course that this story wasn't completely fabricated by Goodman) is whether he really is in it for the "journey" or whether it's the goal that is what matters. And the next question is (again assuming the story is accurate) this: what does he do next year if he doesn't make All-American and/or UNC doesn't win it all?

I certainly commend him for having goals and sticking around to try to see them through if they're important to him. But I agree that this story has some weirdness to it.

sagegrouse
04-18-2011, 04:03 PM
That is certainly odd. Strange that Barnes would be calling Goodman to ask these questions.

If that's an accurate recollection of actual events, it would seem that Barnes set both personal and team goals that may be tricky to achieve. In fact, one of those goals (PoY) could potentially conflict with the team's goals (it may make more sense to go to Zeller/Henson more). But that would certainly explain why he'd want to return if he felt he had unfinished business.

That being said, the next step in speculation (assuming of course that this story wasn't completely fabricated by Goodman) is whether he really is in it for the "journey" or whether it's the goal that is what matters. And the next question is (again assuming the story is accurate) this: what does he do next year if he doesn't make All-American and/or UNC doesn't win it all?

I certainly commend him for having goals and sticking around to try to see them through if they're important to him. But I agree that this story has some weirdness to it.

HB wouldn't have liked Duke very much. K would never have tolerated this me-first attitude: 1. national player of the year? 2. first team all-american? 3 (and last). NCAA championship.

sagegrouse

Saratoga2
04-18-2011, 04:14 PM
I am glad that we don't play UNC until the middle of the season next year. By then, we should have the team running smoothly and the leadership questions should be largely answered. That said, we are still likely to be on the short end of most of the matchups. Here's what I see.

Center:
Zeller is a tough matchup for either Miles or Ryan. Don't expect a lot from Marshall at this stage. Advantage UNC.

Power Forward:
Henson is roughly the same capability as Miles. I actually like Mason's game a little more and expect improvement from him. Advantage to neither.

Point guard:
Marshall is a quality point guard with good size although hasn't been a big scorer. We could have Seth, Tyler or Quinn at point by the time we face them. In any case, I expect Marshall to have an edge due to his experience. Advantage UNC.

Shooting Guard:
I am assuming Leslie McDonald but it could be Hairston or Strictland. As a wild possibility they might even put Barnes in that slot. We will have Austin or Andre taking that role. It might just be that the advantage would go to Duke with the likely matchups.

Small Forward:
With Barnes or McAdoo probables for this position and Duke likely to have Andre or Michael, the advantage is with UNC. Even if we get Alex and/or DeAndre, they will be less experienced and I would still say UNC has a marked advantage.

Both teams will have depth, with Duke deep at the inside and point and UNC deep at small forward but with quality backup at both guards.

Still a lot to be determined as far as who will be on the Duke roster. We should know that shortly.

tommy
04-18-2011, 04:16 PM
Who really knows what all goes through a kid's mind when they have to make this decision. Although those you mention were very high picks, I think Kyrie still had the biggest reason to leave. He really has less questions about his game than some of those guys, and if his dream is to be in the NBA, he should go when he has a solid chance at a number one pick.

Like almost all posters on this board, I don't have any idea what factors were or weren't important to Kyrie in making his decision. But one thing that sure wouldn't surprise me if it did play a big role is this: 18 and 19 year old kids who are stud ballplayers like Kyrie, Barnes, and all the others, tend to think they're invincible. Nothing can touch them. No injury is significant. They're bulletproof.

Kyrie knows otherwise. He suffered a strange and debilitating injury and while he and we were lucky he made the recovery he did, he now knows that he is not immune from serious injury, including ones that can threaten a career. It wouldn't surprise me if that freaked him out -- and maybe for good reason. Maybe he's making a different decision than almost all the top players in the country because he knows injury, and he justifiably fears it, and is making a decision that will guarantee he and his family get paid, without risk of a career-damaging injury next year.

ACniner
04-18-2011, 04:28 PM
HB wouldn't have liked Duke very much. K would never have tolerated this me-first attitude: 1. national player of the year? 2. first team all-american? 3 (and last). NCAA championship.

sagegrouse

So are we assuming since he told Goodman those things in that order, that its the particular order he had in mind on his personal goal list? Look, he strikes me as a bit cocky but I would be willing to wager if he had skyped Coach K with a Duke hat on, a majority of us would have a very different opinion of him. We would say how dedicated and goal oriented he is, and that he's at Duke to leave a legacy. I dislike HB and the tarheels as much as anyone, but I try to be realistic and refrain from wasting too much energy on it. Its funny to me how some of us are also trying to nit pick their flaws for next year. Sure they have questions as most teams will, but we have to face they are going to be very talented. I look forward to the challenge from our own group of talented young Devils to compete with them all season long.

Duvall
04-18-2011, 04:30 PM
So are we assuming since he told Goodman those things in that order, that its the particular order he had in mind on his personal goal list? Look, he strikes me as a bit cocky but I would be willing to wager if he had skyped Coach K with a Duke hat on, a majority of us would have a very different opinion of him. We would say how dedicated and goal oriented he is, and that he's at Duke to leave a legacy.

Having personal goals is one thing. Calling up a reporter to discuss your personal goals is something else.

CDu
04-18-2011, 04:31 PM
I am glad that we don't play UNC until the middle of the season next year. By then, we should have the team running smoothly and the leadership questions should be largely answered. That said, we are still likely to be on the short end of most of the matchups. Here's what I see.

Center:
Zeller is a tough matchup for either Miles or Ryan. Don't expect a lot from Marshall at this stage. Advantage UNC.

Power Forward:
Henson is roughly the same capability as Miles. I actually like Mason's game a little more and expect improvement from him. Advantage to neither.

I'd group the bigs together here, because there's some uncertainty about who will play where for us. Zeller and Henson have a productivity edge on the Plumlees and Kelly. Depth is a question, as the backups will be McAdoo and the other freshman (unless Williams goes with Watts again). It also remains to be seen if (or how much) our bigs can close the gap. It's not like we don't have talented bigs - they just haven't shown the polish that UNC's bigs have shown.

Also, I assume you meant Henson is roughly the same capability as Mason. I'd say he's certainly ahead of Miles right now. I think he's more polished than Mason, though either player could emerge in a big way next year.

I'd give UNC the overall edge right now, but that's not to say we couldn't close the gap (or pass them inside). Some things would just have to go right for us. UNC has fewer questions to answer.


Point guard:
Marshall is a quality point guard with good size although hasn't been a big scorer. We could have Seth, Tyler or Quinn at point by the time we face them. In any case, I expect Marshall to have an edge due to his experience. Advantage UNC.

Again, UNC has the edge right now in that they have the most proven player and the fewest questions.


Shooting Guard:
I am assuming Leslie McDonald but it could be Hairston or Strictland. As a wild possibility they might even put Barnes in that slot. We will have Austin or Andre taking that role. It might just be that the advantage would go to Duke with the likely matchups.

Strickland started this year at SG and I don't see McDonald surpassing him. But Strickland and McDonald will play here. I think we have a likely advantage here, but a lot of that is dependent on guys taking on new roles. and Dawkins has never been a go-to guy at the college level, and Rivers hasn't yet played a game. Curry has had moments, but he's generally been a tertiary option at the ACC level (and he may be forced to play PG). If we don't thoroughly win this matchup, we will likely have trouble beating UNC.


Small Forward:
With Barnes or McAdoo probables for this position and Duke likely to have Andre or Michael, the advantage is with UNC. Even if we get Alex and/or DeAndre, they will be less experienced and I would still say UNC has a marked advantage.

McAdoo really isn't likely to play SF. He's going to be the primary backup for Zeller/Henson in the post. UNC will have Barnes, Bullock, and Hairston at the SF spot, and it'll be primarily Barnes. That's likely to be a big edge for UNC.


Both teams will have depth, with Duke deep at the inside and point and UNC deep at small forward but with quality backup at both guards.

Still a lot to be determined as far as who will be on the Duke roster. We should know that shortly.

I think the biggest thing is that UNC has far fewer question marks than we do. Basically, anything could happen. We have any number of guys who could emerge. But we are very unproven. UNC is fairly proven at every spot on the floor and has depth. We can match them, but the theme is going to be that we need several things to go right for us. Not unlike how guys like Thomas, Zoubek, Smith, and Scheyer emerged (at various points) during the 2010 season. It can happen, but a lot has to go right.

CDu
04-18-2011, 04:34 PM
HB wouldn't have liked Duke very much. K would never have tolerated this me-first attitude: 1. national player of the year? 2. first team all-american? 3 (and last). NCAA championship.

sagegrouse

Assuming of course two things:
1. that this is the order Barnes asked them
2. that this is the order Barnes was thinking of them in terms of importance

Regardless, it's weird that he's calling a writer to talk about it.

Jderf
04-18-2011, 04:39 PM
Assuming of course two things:
1. that this is the order Barnes asked them
2. that this is the order Barnes was thinking of them in terms of importance

Regardless, it's weird that he's calling a writer to talk about it.

Right. It's not so much that the event reflects positively or negatively on Barnes. It's just a strange thing to do. I can't imagine a young guy like him sitting in his dorm room, mulling over these questions in his head, and then going, "Aha! I know what I can do about this. Jeff Goodman will know the answers!" It's just bizarre. Or as Goodman puts it, "unique."

Edit: ... I guess it's more reliable than shaking your magic eight ball.

Reilly
04-18-2011, 05:02 PM
Does anyone would seriously believe HB wrote that statement? Not a slam on HB per se, but that is a polished and professional piece of public relations.

Just like ol' Roy and his good ol boy act, HB tries just a little too hard for me.... I can't really warm up to him.

Watch his announcement presser and how he talks about each of the programs he considered. Given that, I seriously believe the recent statement could have come from HB or that it accurately sets out what he would want to say.

My point: I wouldn't call it polished and professional. It is what somebody *thinks* is polished and professional, but which, in reality, is not (due to what you accurately note: trying too hard).

The turn-of-slogan that Wolfpack fans say about UNC "to seem rather than to be" seems quite appropriate here and w/ respect to Barnes. To seem (polished, educated, thoughtful) rather than to actually be. That statement is *not* polished, was my point.

NSDukeFan
04-18-2011, 05:40 PM
...

I am also glad the target is not on Duke this year. I'm sure we'll be Top 10 to start, but the pressure on Chapel Hill to go undefeated, sweep through the ACC regular season and Tourney, then steamroll everyone in their path to another NCAA Championship will be an enormous weight to bear all season. I would definitely compare this '11-12 team to the '09 team in terms of expectations. While we will always be Duke, if we lose a game it's no biggie. It will truly be fun enjoying a season without the bullseye.
New here?:D

Well, here's my effort to give you all a glass half full attitude. With Barnes, Sullinger, Jones, and others returning to school, it adds to the draft class of 2012. Which means, the likelihood of Austin Rivers playing two years at Duke, even if the age limit stays the same, improves.

Also, we get to cheer against Barnes for another season.

For a positive, I was thinking more along the lines of what DukieinSoCal is saying here:


I keep searching for the silver linings in all of this and the only one I can find is that Nolan and Kyle will get drafted higher as a result of all these guys coming back to school. I can think think of at least 5 guys - Sullinger, Perry Jones, the 3 UNC kids - that likely would have been picked ahead of our 2 seniors. Now, they're much closer to first round status and guaranteed contracts. Good for them. They certainly deserve it.


Gotta give credit to Roy Williams. His top 3 recruits for the 2011-12 season were Zeller, Henson and Barnes :)
Just like Duke's top recruit last year was Kyle, who I remember thinking was better to have back than any freshman coming in. I still think that.

UNC will be very good next year, but there's still not a lot of power in the paint. Lots of finesse types with Zeller, Henson and McAdoo.

...
I think people (certainly not just you) tend to expect a lot of post players. Not only should they be able to score in the post at will, but it has to be a certain way. The problem is that there just aren't very many Shaqs or Dwight Howards, or Hakeems or Olajuwons in the pro game, let alone in college. There are very few bruising, back to the basket players out there.

If you have a 7-footer who can score in the post, run the floor and shoot a bit, you are ahead of about 97% of college teams. If you have another post player who is a fantastic defensive player and is learning to use his great length and athleticism in the post, your power in the paint is likely better than every other team in the country,unless OSU can find a quality big to pair with Sullinger and/or Jones stays for UK (though he plays a lot on the perimeter), Davis makes the kind of impact many are expecting and Wiltjer plays well in the post. UNC's post players may not be body builders, but they will be able to play inside against anyone, which is more important than how brawny they aren't.

This is certainly not to say that I think Carolina is going undefeated, an automatic final four participant, or anything like that. If UK returns everyone, I assume they are preseason #1. I also like Duke's chances of being in the group of teams that have almost as good a chance as anyone to make a run next year first at the ACC championship and then for a final four berth. I expect Duke will be a better team for most of next year than any of this year's final four teams. Does that mean I expect Duke to be in the final four? It is unlikely, but I think they have as good a chance as almost anyone, looking at things at this way too early point.

oldnavy
04-18-2011, 05:49 PM
While you have to give Carolina credit for winning the ACC regular season and getting to the Elite 8, this was not a dominant team. We should expect them to be better next year, but if Rivers is as good as advertised (and if the big men step up, which I fully expect) then Duke will be more than competitive. Duke could not match up with UNC during Hansbrough's senior season, but I think 2011-12 will be very different.

I think we just could not match up with Ty Lawson. He broke us down and we had no one with his speed to stay in front of him. When we played them without Ty we actually won, although I am not sure if it was Hansbrough's senior or junior year or both....

I like our chances better with the 11-12 tarheels. Marshall is an outstanding player, actually the best player on the team IMO, but he is not super fast and he can be defended if made to shoot or drive. The rest of the matchups are pretty close. Even if you give the heels the edge on each match up (which I do not think is true) the differences is negligable. Should be some good games.

gumbomoop
04-18-2011, 06:03 PM
Watch his announcement presser and how he talks about each of the programs he considered. Given that, I seriously believe the recent statement could have come from HB or that it accurately sets out what he would want to say.

My point: I wouldn't call it polished and professional. It is what somebody *thinks* is polished and professional, but which, in reality, is not (due to what you accurately note: trying too hard).

The turn-of-slogan that Wolfpack fans say about UNC "to seem rather than to be" seems quite appropriate here and w/ respect to Barnes. To seem (polished, educated, thoughtful) rather than to actually be. That statement is *not* polished, was my point.

I agree with Reilly on the actual announcement statement: it's someone's idea of a polished statement, but it's suffused with PR-polish that is actually pretentious. I have no idea whether the words are Barnes's or a PR person's.

Pretentious?
1. use of the word "journey" 5 times. Five, as in five.
2. the trying-too-hard, fake-pensiveness of the truly weird phrase - in the syntax as it appears - "can seem"
3. the specific phrase "life journey" - people have lives rather than lifestyles or life journeys
4. the specific phrase "fuel my journey"

I do not doubt that Jeff Goodman, and other sports folks, find HB unusually mature, thoughtful, etc. He is different, which would be delightful, were it not for his making such a point of being noticed for being different, which is other than delightful.

I personally tend to [or want to] like semi-weirdos and misfits. I admit, however, to a preference for the person who runs her/his "life journey" unobtrusively, letting others notice them for their good qualities.

In the end, there's no accounting for taste. I find it disconcerting to see such a talented young person so intent - to the off-putting edge of obsessiveness - on playing himself, and on molding his persona and smoothing its already smooth edges so deliberately.

At some point Harrison Barnes will actually mature, and will undoubtedly do great things in the NBA and beyond. Heel fans will have every reason to be proud of him, and Duke fans every reason to be a tad bit jealous.

But not just yet.

Reilly
04-18-2011, 06:26 PM
... At some point Harrison Barnes will actually mature ....

You might hope, but I wouldn't be so sure. If he's out on the ledge with the skype stuff, and now another year later with this tripe (I'd use an earthier 10-cent word, but don't want to run afoul of the censoring software), maybe he thinks it's cool, and that it works for him, and he'll keep doing it. Fine by me if he does. I sort of like their PG Marshall, and Zeller and Henson seem OK .... It helps keep the rivalry fires going when they are goofs, so thank God for Roy and the Falcon!

sandinmyshoes
04-18-2011, 06:29 PM
New here?:D



I think people (certainly not just you) tend to expect a lot of post players. Not only should they be able to score in the post at will, but it has to be a certain way. The problem is that there just aren't very many Shaqs or Dwight Howards, or Hakeems or Olajuwons in the pro game, let alone in college. There are very few bruising, back to the basket players out there.

If you have a 7-footer who can score in the post, run the floor and shoot a bit, you are ahead of about 97% of college teams. If you have another post player who is a fantastic defensive player and is learning to use his great length and athleticism in the post, your power in the paint is likely better than every other team in the country,unless OSU can find a quality big to pair with Sullinger and/or Jones stays for UK (though he plays a lot on the perimeter), Davis makes the kind of impact many are expecting and Wiltjer plays well in the post. UNC's post players may not be body builders, but they will be able to play inside against anyone, which is more important than how brawny they aren't.

This is certainly not to say that I think Carolina is going undefeated, an automatic final four participant, or anything like that. If UK returns everyone, I assume they are preseason #1. I also like Duke's chances of being in the group of teams that have almost as good a chance as anyone to make a run next year first at the ACC championship and then for a final four berth. I expect Duke will be a better team for most of next year than any of this year's final four teams. Does that mean I expect Duke to be in the final four? It is unlikely, but I think they have as good a chance as almost anyone, looking at things at this way too early point.

My point about "power" in the paint, is that the UNC bigs were often thrown off their game by physical defense. In our win in the ACC tourney our bigs did a good job of pounding on their bigs. Kentucky did the same thing in the NCAAs. It's not even that important that the bigs on other teams score a lot (though it helps) but only that they play strong, physical defense. That's especially true when UNC isn't hitting their 3 pointers.

I think that our post depth can offset their edge in post skill by playing physical defense. We can afford to lose a Plumlee, or even a couple of Plumlees to fouls if the physicality of the game is pushing their more finesse style bigs out of their comfort zone.

sandinmyshoes
04-18-2011, 06:33 PM
I agree with Reilly on the actual announcement statement: it's someone's idea of a polished statement, but it's suffused with PR-polish that is actually pretentious. I have no idea whether the words are Barnes's or a PR person's.

Pretentious?
1. use of the word "journey" 5 times. Five, as in five.
2. the trying-too-hard, fake-pensiveness of the truly weird phrase - in the syntax as it appears - "can seem"
3. the specific phrase "life journey" - people have lives rather than lifestyles or life journeys
4. the specific phrase "fuel my journey"

I do not doubt that Jeff Goodman, and other sports folks, find HB unusually mature, thoughtful, etc. He is different, which would be delightful, were it not for his making such a point of being noticed for being different, which is other than delightful.

I personally tend to [or want to] like semi-weirdos and misfits. I admit, however, to a preference for the person who runs her/his "life journey" unobtrusively, letting others notice them for their good qualities.

In the end, there's no accounting for taste. I find it disconcerting to see such a talented young person so intent - to the off-putting edge of obsessiveness - on playing himself, and on molding his persona and smoothing its already smooth edges so deliberately.

At some point Harrison Barnes will actually mature, and will undoubtedly do great things in the NBA and beyond. Heel fans will have every reason to be proud of him, and Duke fans every reason to be a tad bit jealous.

But not just yet.

Some of the things you are saying reminds me of the accusations I heard thrown at Shane by UNC fans. That he was pretentious and so forth. I certainly don't think Barnes is a Shane Battier, but both were mature as college freshmen. We should expect them to be college graduate mature, or 30 something mature at that point in their lives.

ChicagoCrazy84
04-18-2011, 07:01 PM
It's hard not to get more and more frustrated with Kyrie's decision. I'm certainly not going to start bashing the kid for leaving, but you have to wonder what stuck in the minds of kids like Sullinger, Perry Jones, Henson, Zeller, and HB that didn't stick in Kyrie's. Was it solely the fact that #1 overall was in his future? Would Kyrie had definitely be a #1 if Sullinger was leaving too? I just doubt that all these kids thought to themselves "Im not going to be #1 overall so I might as well stay." Lots of questions up in the air and it seems like the only ones saying "what could have been" are Duke fans. Kinda sucks.

gumbomoop
04-18-2011, 07:45 PM
Some of the things you are saying reminds me of the accusations I heard thrown at Shane by UNC fans. That he was pretentious and so forth. I certainly don't think Barnes is a Shane Battier, but both were mature as college freshmen. We should expect them to be college graduate mature, or 30 something mature at that point in their lives.

I'm not surprised by this. It would be interesting to see some frosh-soph Shane-statements, to see whether I'd judge them to be pretentiousness [assuming the unlikely, that I could be absolutely unbiased]. Might be impossible to compare, even if available, as I'd probably cut Shane some slack. And I sure as hell wouldn't accept as accurate the judgment of [most] Heel fans re pretentiousness. I'd be willing, at least, to listen to offers from our DBR Heels to correct my biased views. But as my mind is nearly made up, I probably would resist making any wholesale recantation.

As I say [actually, from a Latin proverb, I think], there's no accounting for taste. And in this case, or possibly these [Shane and Harrison] cases, the special problem of Duke v. UNC bias makes it virtually impossible to come to an absolutely objective judgment. [But I did really like Shane's broad smile, not to mention the fact that - in the NC, wasn't it? - he grabbed a broom or something and knocked that ball down off the top of the backboard. Great.]

SupaDave
04-18-2011, 07:47 PM
It's hard not to get more and more frustrated with Kyrie's decision. I'm certainly not going to start bashing the kid for leaving, but you have to wonder what stuck in the minds of kids like Sullinger, Perry Jones, Henson, Zeller, and HB that didn't stick in Kyrie's. Was it solely the fact that #1 overall was in his future? Would Kyrie had definitely be a #1 if Sullinger was leaving too? I just doubt that all these kids thought to themselves "Im not going to be #1 overall so I might as well stay." Lots of questions up in the air and it seems like the only ones saying "what could have been" are Duke fans. Kinda sucks.

None of them were gonna get playing time. Kyrie, my friend, will most definitely be on the court...

AZLA
04-18-2011, 09:20 PM
All of the negative comments thrown HB's way is unbecoming.

Having help with preparing a well-versed PR statement -- so?

That's smart. If he did.

Do you doubt Kyrie is also incapable of crafting a PR statement or did he get help too?

It's something any one of you would do if you happened to be a public figure.

HB is going back to school. That's great! Especially for college basketball. Or do you want to beat the Heels only based on attrition? I say bring the best, day in and day out, and that will be the true measure of a champion.

He's representing what Duke fans applaud. I wish Kyrie made that same decision, but can understand why he didn't. Regardless, Kyrie jumped -- HB stayed.

And don't say HB isn't ready for the pros.

You haven't been watching basketball.

Obviously, North Carolina will be dominant next year AND with good players, that seem to be good kids and are doing it the right way.

You don't have to like it, you just have to get used to it.

Newton_14
04-18-2011, 10:06 PM
All of the negative comments thrown HB's way is unbecoming.

Having help with preparing a well-versed PR statement -- so?

That's smart. If he did.

Do you doubt Kyrie is also incapable of crafting a PR statement or did he get help too?

It's something any one of you would do if you happened to be a public figure.

HB is going back to school. That's great! Especially for college basketball. Or do you want to beat the Heels only based on attrition? I say bring the best, day in and day out, and that will be the true measure of a champion.

He's representing what Duke fans applaud. I wish Kyrie made that same decision, but can understand why he didn't. Regardless, Kyrie jumped -- HB stayed.

And don't say HB isn't ready for the pros.

You haven't been watching basketball.

Obviously, North Carolina will be dominant next year AND with good players, that seem to be good kids and are doing it the right way.

You don't have to like it, you just have to get used to it.

I agree with most of this. I do applaud kids who care about their college legacy and stay multiple years in college to try to leave a legacy. I wish they all were like Nolan and Kyle and stayed all 4 years, or at the least 3. Back in the old days, when only the best of the very best declared "Hardship" and went to the NBA after their Jr year, the fan's, myself included, expected that and didn't really fret about it. All of those guy's left a legacy and were close enough to graduation, they could come back and finish up pretty easily. Most did.


I miss those days, but understand that the culture has changed. The current rules are wrong and only serve to make things worse. I would vote for the baseball rule and let those good enough go directly to the NBA out of High School, but if they chose college, they could not be drafted by the NBA until after their Jr year. Seems fair to all sides. Certainly moreso than the current rules.


I also agree with ChicagoHeel that we should avoid the juvenile banter in the Duke/UNC Rivalry.

The one point I disagree on, is I think it is fair to not like some of the UNC players, just like it is fair for the UNC fans not to like some of our players, especially when there is a valid reason to not like them. I also think it is fair to not like Barnes for the ego deal, but agree it is a slippery slope when pointing out the issues. For an example, I did not see anything wrong with the way "Starter" stated his reasons for not liking HB.

Duvall was more than fair in posting the link that showed the conversation between HB and Goodman. I believe that is evidence of the "ego" many have been pointing out. Like anything else, there is a right way and a wrong way to discuss perceived "issues". I was fine with the way Starter and Duvall approached it, but agree others posts were over the top.


For me personally, having grown up here right in the middle of it, and having to hear it 24/7 360, and sitting right across from 4 Heel fans at work, one of which has a glass rat on his desk he named "K", and a picture above that of a rat with Coach K's head photo-shopped in, I hate UNC with a passion. I would never pull for them under any circumstances in any sport. But I respect the heck out of the Rivalry, and the accomplishments of UNC's basketball program. I respect the talent they have and have had over the years, and I respect the heck out of Dean Smith. One of the all-time great coaches.

Just my two cents. I hope it made some semblance of sense.:D

Zerogee
04-18-2011, 10:08 PM
It's hard not to get more and more frustrated with Kyrie's decision. I'm certainly not going to start bashing the kid for leaving, but you have to wonder what stuck in the minds of kids like Sullinger, Perry Jones, Henson, Zeller, and HB that didn't stick in Kyrie's. Was it solely the fact that #1 overall was in his future? Would Kyrie had definitely be a #1 if Sullinger was leaving too? I just doubt that all these kids thought to themselves "Im not going to be #1 overall so I might as well stay." Lots of questions up in the air and it seems like the only ones saying "what could have been" are Duke fans. Kinda sucks.

This. I'm in the same boat - I wish Kyrie well, I understand his decision, I have no hard feelings towards him - but after seeing lottery pick after lottery pick (and in HB's, Sullinger's, and possibly some other cases, Top 5 picks) decide to return, I wonder why Kyrie didn't feel that way as well. Irving was the consummate cheerleader, clearly passionate about the team and had he never returned from the toe injury, I think he would have left really enjoying his Duke experience.

So why did it end there?

I'm not one who thinks he's going to change in his mind - he's gone, that's fine, we'll all move on - but I do wonder if he had waited a couple more weeks and seen just how many people decided to come back, if he would have thought differently. Oh well!

Newton_14
04-18-2011, 10:14 PM
This. I'm in the same boat - I wish Kyrie well, I understand his decision, I have no hard feelings towards him - but after seeing lottery pick after lottery pick (and in HB's, Sullinger's, and possibly some other cases, Top 5 picks) decide to return, I wonder why Kyrie didn't feel that way as well. Irving was the consummate cheerleader, clearly passionate about the team and had he never returned from the toe injury, I think he would have left really enjoying his Duke experience.

So why did it end there?

I'm not one who thinks he's going to change in his mind - he's gone, that's fine, we'll all move on - but I do wonder if he had waited a couple more weeks and seen just how many people decided to come back, if he would have thought differently. Oh well!

Others have mentioned this but I feel it is worth stating again, I think the injury played a huge role in the decision. Kyrie had a major injury for the first time ever, and no doubt it scared the heck out of him. There is much to risk.

I wish he were coming back, but there is just no way I can begrudge the kid. He "unpacked his bags" and gave us everything he had while playing and while injuried. It is also my understanding he gave his all in his studies and classroom work as well. He also made it known from the beginning that he would likely go after one year if he was ready. I support his decision and have not one ounce of ill will towards him. Just not fair to him to do that imo.

cptnflash
04-18-2011, 11:27 PM
All of the negative comments thrown HB's way is unbecoming.

Having help with preparing a well-versed PR statement -- so?

That's smart. If he did.

Do you doubt Kyrie is also incapable of crafting a PR statement or did he get help too?

It's something any one of you would do if you happened to be a public figure.

HB is going back to school. That's great! Especially for college basketball. Or do you want to beat the Heels only based on attrition? I say bring the best, day in and day out, and that will be the true measure of a champion.

He's representing what Duke fans applaud. I wish Kyrie made that same decision, but can understand why he didn't. Regardless, Kyrie jumped -- HB stayed.

And don't say HB isn't ready for the pros.

You haven't been watching basketball.

Obviously, North Carolina will be dominant next year AND with good players, that seem to be good kids and are doing it the right way.

You don't have to like it, you just have to get used to it.

Best post in this entire thread. +1 to everything you said.

shoutingncu
04-19-2011, 01:35 AM
For all those talking about how unstoppable UNC will be next year, remember that they will not be nearly as experienced as the team that won it all in 2009... Edge, by far to 2009 UNC...and they didn't win the ACC

True, but they were the best team in the ACC. :)


But you do have a point in terms of experience. One thing that the 2009 UNC team will have that the 2012 team won't is that the main guys (Hansbrough, Lawson, Ellington, Green, Thompson) will have played together for 2+ years coming into the season. Next year's core group (Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Strickland, Marshall) will have had one year playing together.

I would add to both of your points about experience that the 2009 group returned a Final Four team. Only one game more than 2012, but significant in terms of experience.

We'll see what that extra year brings, though. 2007 wasn't exactly a banner year for the '09 core (well, it was, but not one to get overly excited about by comparison to the years that followed). That core buckled down in '08, and returned in '09 to go further.

We'll see if the "growing pains" that the 2012 group endured in '11 will be enough to get them to that next level only one year later.

Put me in the camp that thinks they're not as good on paper as the last two dominant pre-season teams (Duke '11, Carolina '09). That said, they still probably have a better chance than most to make a deep run.

oldnavy
04-19-2011, 07:14 AM
All of the negative comments thrown HB's way is unbecoming.

Having help with preparing a well-versed PR statement -- so?

That's smart. If he did.

Do you doubt Kyrie is also incapable of crafting a PR statement or did he get help too?

It's something any one of you would do if you happened to be a public figure.

HB is going back to school. That's great! Especially for college basketball. Or do you want to beat the Heels only based on attrition? I say bring the best, day in and day out, and that will be the true measure of a champion.

He's representing what Duke fans applaud. I wish Kyrie made that same decision, but can understand why he didn't. Regardless, Kyrie jumped -- HB stayed.

And don't say HB isn't ready for the pros.

You haven't been watching basketball.

Obviously, North Carolina will be dominant next year AND with good players, that seem to be good kids and are doing it the right way.

You don't have to like it, you just have to get used to it.

I think you are missing the overall point. It is not just his last statement, it is the whole package.

Playing a game in his recruitment, by stringing it out and leading others to think that he was open to choices other than UNC only to say in the Skype conference that there never was a choice.. it is his wearing a shirt that says "I'm the dude" on it, it is his unbelievably lame nickname that he has embraced, it is the hype that surrounded him (although not his fault) coming in, it is him discussing his “brand” and now this obviously engineered statement that he puts out.

Any one of these things alone would be minor and of little consequence, but when you add them up it paints a picture of a kid who seems overly concerned with his "legacy" and image rather than being a kid that plays the game of basketball.

Give me John Henson any day over Barnes, at least he seems to enjoy the game and best of all he can smile and laugh at himself...

I am very use to UNC being a quality program. I am actually proud of that because it makes the rivalry that much better. I have no problem with UNC being good, but from time to time there comes along a player that is just hard for me to like, and HB is one of those players.

I feel that I must qualify my last statement. I do not know HB so what I dislike about him is his public image. He is most likely a very good kid in person...

darjum
04-19-2011, 07:42 AM
Others have mentioned this but I feel it is worth stating again, I think the injury played a huge role in the decision. Kyrie had a major injury for the first time ever, and no doubt it scared the heck out of him. There is much to risk.

Agreed; for every person who has ever laced up a pair of sneakers and taken to a basketball court the risk of injury is always there. For most of us we risk a swollen ankle, black eye or at worst an injury that might keep us off work for a few day/weeks. But when you are risking millions of dollars, the risk reward becomes so much higher. I too credit HB for wanting to extend his game at the college level, but as a top 5 pick he risks a lot to return.

I have also heard a lot of people crediting HB for valuing his education. This is true if he does indeed finish his degree. I have taught many students who dropped out after/during their second year and consequently did not receive their degree. Those students do not get credit for sticking in school for two years, they still have to pay all of their fees and get little in return, bar the experience they gain from being in a higher place of learning. If he stays the course and gets his degree then yes, by all means praise away. If he leaves after two years and never finishes his degree then the point is mute. Therefore before people praise HB for choosing scholastic achievement over money do so after he has a degree. Will he gain valuable maturity and basketball skill by sticking around for a second year, absolutely, ultimate scholastic achievement, not so. Therefore sticking around for a second year doesn’t entitle anyone credit for academic achievement, however finishing what you start sure does.

That’s why I credit Kyle Singler so much. After his Freshmen year he could have come out, got drafted probably higher than he will after his Senior year and could have been living off a three year rookie deal (such as Kevin Love). Instead Kyle grew as a person and when drafted will be a productive player for whoever is bright enough to draft him. Plus we got to enjoy a true warrior playing for the Devils for the past four years.

darjum
04-19-2011, 07:52 AM
I feel that I must qualify my last statement. I do not know HB so what I dislike about him is his public image. He is most likely a very good kid in person...

Didn't the world do the same thing to LeBron last year? I would dare say not many people who post on DBR actually know LeBron personally, but we are entitled to our opinion based on his public image and the way he conducts himself. I personally didn't like the way LeBron handled himself, do I know the man, of course not, but I'm entitled to my opinion. Do I like HB, sure don't, but I'm entitled to that.

Neither Duke nor UNC fans can be objective about their like or dislike of HB and we will each assess the manner in which he conducts himself in different lights, mine just happens to be darker shade of blue which sometimes makes me see red when listening, watching or digesting anything HB related.

dukeballboy88
04-19-2011, 08:38 AM
I just dont think hb is that good. Now he will be a good college player but I dont think he is a franchise player in the NBA. He is slow and he settles for jumpers to much. If I were a unc fan, I would want him to attack the rim more. He is a good shooter but not that good and thats why he looked like a bust the majority of the season last year. In hucks offense if they have to play in the half court and cant get anything in the post, the wings have to create a shot by themselves and at times hb couldnt find the range therefore bad shooting nights.

Im not bitter or hating because for one, I didnt want him at Duke the moment he did the whole press conference with a skype show. Watching I was like, who does this kid think he is? Im just calling it how I see it and the way I see it, HB will be a 10 year journeyman in the NBA because 6'8" versatile wings grow on trees these days and HB is slow and passive.

Duke is looking to sign a 6'8" versatile wing in Daniels that I kind of like better because from what ive seen DD plays D. So I maybe alone here but I just dont think hb is that good.

roywhite
04-19-2011, 09:02 AM
Looking at some of HB's numbers for last season:

Per game:
15.7 pts 5.8 rebs 1.4 asst 1.9 t/o

42.3% FG 34.4% 3-pt 75.0% FT

Comments:
His shooting and scoring improved late in the year
Despite the improvement, his overall accuracy is not impressive
He showed the ability to take and hit clutch shots late in games
Didn't generate much production defensively in terms of steals and blocks
Didn't get to the line much for an offensive-minded player; he was 93-124 from the line total, averaging only 3.35 FT attempts per game

Bottom line IMO
He was a good, not great, player last year who hit some clutch shots
He has room for improvement in many areas---shooting accuracy, setting up teammates, and production on defense
It would certainly be reasonable for him to make a significant jump from freshman to sophomore and become one of the best players in the conference and in the country, but he's not there yet.

Faison1
04-19-2011, 09:04 AM
I am glad that we don't play UNC until the middle of the season next year. By then, we should have the team running smoothly and the leadership questions should be largely answered. That said, we are still likely to be on the short end of most of the matchups. Here's what I see.

Center:
Zeller is a tough matchup for either Miles or Ryan. Don't expect a lot from Marshall at this stage. Advantage UNC.

Power Forward:
Henson is roughly the same capability as Miles. I actually like Mason's game a little more and expect improvement from him. Advantage to neither.

Point guard:
Marshall is a quality point guard with good size although hasn't been a big scorer. We could have Seth, Tyler or Quinn at point by the time we face them. In any case, I expect Marshall to have an edge due to his experience. Advantage UNC.

Shooting Guard:
I am assuming Leslie McDonald but it could be Hairston or Strictland. As a wild possibility they might even put Barnes in that slot. We will have Austin or Andre taking that role. It might just be that the advantage would go to Duke with the likely matchups.

Small Forward:
With Barnes or McAdoo probables for this position and Duke likely to have Andre or Michael, the advantage is with UNC. Even if we get Alex and/or DeAndre, they will be less experienced and I would still say UNC has a marked advantage.

Both teams will have depth, with Duke deep at the inside and point and UNC deep at small forward but with quality backup at both guards.

Still a lot to be determined as far as who will be on the Duke roster. We should know that shortly.

About 2 weeks ago, I thought the only clear advantage we'd have was at shooting guard (and I use the term "clear" loosely, considering I'm talking about an unproven freshman).

But the more thought I give the situation, the more I think we're gonna be fine.

Think about the 3 matchups we had this past year. Barnes and Singler negated one another, Nolan had huge games, Seth played his best ball of the season, and our frontcourt played strong D with Miles emerging with renewed confidence.

Fast forward to next year, we lose Kyle and Nolan, but keep the rest of the team. Granted, losing Kyle in particular is going to be a HUGE hole to fill. Over the past 4 years, when he was out of the game, the team just didn't function as smoothly. His loss will be a big question mark.

Almost as big a loss will be Nolan. But if we're lucky, and the hype is real, maybe Austin fills that scoring void.

If Mason improves, and Seth keeps his Elephant Hunting Mentality, I like our chances. Mason is 4 and 1 against the heels in his career so far.

gumbomoop
04-19-2011, 10:27 AM
All of the negative comments thrown HB's way is unbecoming.

Having help with preparing a well-versed PR statement -- so?

That's smart. If he did.

Do you doubt Kyrie is also incapable of crafting a PR statement or did he get help too?

It's something any one of you would do if you happened to be a public figure.

HB is going back to school. That's great! Especially for college basketball. Or do you want to beat the Heels only based on attrition? I say bring the best, day in and day out, and that will be the true measure of a champion.

He's representing what Duke fans applaud. I wish Kyrie made that same decision, but can understand why he didn't. Regardless, Kyrie jumped -- HB stayed.

And don't say HB isn't ready for the pros.

You haven't been watching basketball.

Obviously, North Carolina will be dominant next year AND with good players, that seem to be good kids and are doing it the right way.

You don't have to like it, you just have to get used to it.

You make two distinct points in your post here. With the second point, the focus of the last 2/3 of your post, I agree, and have praised, repeatedly, HB's talents and the overall quality of UNC, both its bball program and its academic excellence. First-class university, first-class basketball program. One exception re HB: his handle is still a weakness, and may partially account for his tendency to settle for jumpers, when his power should make him unstoppable going to the rim. Anyhow, he's [almost] as talented as advertised. Despite the overhype at the beginning of this past season, I assume he will be on most 2011-'12 preseason AA teams [maybe 2d-3d team?].

With your first point, and very precisely with your description of the announcement as "a well-versed PR statement," I disagree. Now maybe my real gripe is with PR generally, rather than this particular example, which, in my judgment [shared by some, not by others, as there's no accounting for taste] is suffused with pretentiousness, concrete examples of which I cited in post 167. You're probably correct that it's generally assumed that it would be "smart" to go to a PR-person for help. Further, if ironically, you may have hit upon a key point when you note that critics, if they were public figures, would also depend on their PR-folks. Maybe that's why I see so many public figures who seem dismally dim. Anyhow, PR-stuff rarely impresses writers who value clarity, precision, fluidity. [I think this was Reilly's point in post 107 in providing the link re good writing. Reilly could correct me if I misunderstood.]

To summarize:
1. I agree with you that Barnes is very talented, and I applaud his decision to return, again agreeing with you that it's great for college ball.
2. I disagree that his statement is "well-versed." It's fluff. Our disagreement on this issue might be merely a matter of, "there's no accounting for taste," but I suspect it's actually a much larger issue about what constitutes good writing.
3. Re pretentiousness: There might be a disagreement among posters about (a) whether HB is overfull of himself, and - here's the real trouble, I suspect - (b) even if so, whether it's unbecoming to mention.

UrinalCake
04-19-2011, 10:35 AM
I just dont think hb is that good. Now he will be a good college player but I dont think he is a franchise player in the NBA.

I mostly agree with you, though I think his impact in college will be a little greater than you. If I were an NBA GM there's no way I'd draft him in the top 5. He just doesn't seem like the kind of guy you can build your team around. I really feel like he's making a mistake by coming back, and I say that without my dark blue-tinted goggles on. His stock can only go down next year. Aside from the fact it will be a stronger draft, he'll have to play incredibly well just to maintain his status. Right now people still think he has "potential," but if he plays at the same level that he did this year, he will be "exposed" and viewed as having reached his ceiling.

Now maybe he really does like being in college and wants to win a title, and if that's the case then I can't fault him for that, but in terms of his NBA draft stock his best time to go would be now.

sagegrouse
04-19-2011, 10:45 AM
Anyhow, PR-stuff rarely impresses writers who value clarity, precision, fluidity.


I think most communications professionals value clarity, precision and readability. Also, directness: say what you think, but be polite and humble and don't rub peoples faces in it.

I was having some fun with Mr. Barnes in my "textual criticism" earlier in the thread. His message should have been: "I'm 18 years old; the NBA can wait. I want to get an education, enjoy college and win an NCAA championship with (not for) my teammates."

Instead, it read like he wrote a statement and gave it to the SID office to make into a story. I am sure the guys and gals there held their noses and issued it.

Consider the off-message stuff, like:

"As an 18-year old, I'm in the early stages of my life journey." Holy cow!

"I'm honored and blessed for the chance to play in the NBA." Uh.... you are returning to college.

"Opportunities, both beneficial and life changing, can seem to make the next phase of my journey an easy decision." WTF?

You know, sometimes it's better to just act like a kid. It would seem more sincere.

And, even though he's young, it's OK to poke fun at a rival. Just think how much fun we had with Psycho T, who I am convinced was given that name by his Mom.

sagegrouse

oldnavy
04-19-2011, 10:58 AM
I mostly agree with you, though I think his impact in college will be a little greater than you. If I were an NBA GM there's no way I'd draft him in the top 5. He just doesn't seem like the kind of guy you can build your team around. I really feel like he's making a mistake by coming back, and I say that without my dark blue-tinted goggles on. His stock can only go down next year. Aside from the fact it will be a stronger draft, he'll have to play incredibly well just to maintain his status. Right now people still think he has "potential," but if he plays at the same level that he did this year, he will be "exposed" and viewed as having reached his ceiling.

Now maybe he really does like being in college and wants to win a title, and if that's the case then I can't fault him for that, but in terms of his NBA draft stock his best time to go would be now.

I agree that HB is not a dominating player. Until he can create his own shot either off the dribble or down low on a post-up move, he will be a very good player, but far from an elite player. Now he may very well develop into an elite player with work this summer. He needs to be able to put the ball on the floor if he truly wants to be an outside-in face up player. Now he pump fakes or does a one or two dribble step back jumper. Smart defenders will crowd him more and not go for the pump fake until he demonstrates that he can get past them. Also this type of player is well defended when they are denied the ball (duh), but HB never really seemed to work hard off the ball to get open.

Again, this all may change over the next several months, but as of the end of the year I still think he was the 3rd or 4th best player on his own team behind Marshall (robbed of ACC rookie of the year IMO), Zeller, and maybe even Henson...

NashvilleDevil
04-19-2011, 11:03 AM
Now maybe he really does like being in college and wants to win a title, and if that's the case then I can't fault him for that, but in terms of his NBA draft stock his best time to go would be now.

oldnavy beat me to it and stated it much better than I did.

Class of '94
04-19-2011, 11:12 AM
I mostly agree with you, though I think his impact in college will be a little greater than you. If I were an NBA GM there's no way I'd draft him in the top 5. He just doesn't seem like the kind of guy you can build your team around. I really feel like he's making a mistake by coming back, and I say that without my dark blue-tinted goggles on. His stock can only go down next year. Aside from the fact it will be a stronger draft, he'll have to play incredibly well just to maintain his status. Right now people still think he has "potential," but if he plays at the same level that he did this year, he will be "exposed" and viewed as having reached his ceiling.

Now maybe he really does like being in college and wants to win a title, and if that's the case then I can't fault him for that, but in terms of his NBA draft stock his best time to go would be now.

I'm wondering if the reason why he is staying is to get his jersey retired. If the link that was posted earlier was true about HB asking the sports writer those questions, I think if he wins NPOY, becomes an AA, and wins a national championship along with graduating, he would become a candidate for having his jersey retired.

In the grand scheme of things, he made his choice....and so be it. I feel really good about Duke's chances against them next year and I look forward to Duke busting some Tarheel championship aspirations (again).

ChicagoHeel
04-19-2011, 12:52 PM
I agree that HB is not a dominating player. Until he can create his own shot either off the dribble or down low on a post-up move, he will be a very good player, but far from an elite player. Now he may very well develop into an elite player with work this summer. He needs to be able to put the ball on the floor if he truly wants to be an outside-in face up player. Now he pump fakes or does a one or two dribble step back jumper. Smart defenders will crowd him more and not go for the pump fake until he demonstrates that he can get past them. Also this type of player is well defended when they are denied the ball (duh), but HB never really seemed to work hard off the ball to get open.

Again, this all may change over the next several months, but as of the end of the year I still think he was the 3rd or 4th best player on his own team behind Marshall (robbed of ACC rookie of the year IMO), Zeller, and maybe even Henson...

I agree with many of the points about the weaknesses in Barnes' game. He doesn't penetrate and get to the line enough because his dribbling is suspect. That is the area, along with off-the-ball movement, that I expect to improve the most. I might also add that his defense doesn't get enough credit. Ask Singler about his abilities there. One other thing, he carried a lot of the scoring load last year. Other than Zeller, he was the one carrying the brunt of the scoring load. No knock on Irving, but I do believe Barnes might have benefited from playing along Singler and Smith who were quite capable of generating their own offense.

Finally, I think his overall numbers are misleading because they improved so over the course of the season. My hope and expectation is that the offensive efficiency will continue the trend that Luke Winn (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/luke_winn/04/18/north.carolina.loaded/index.html) has outlined- and that the variance from game to game will decrease, which is not an unreasonable expectation for a talented player entering into his second year.

sagegrouse
04-19-2011, 01:13 PM
I'm wondering if the reason why he is staying is to get his jersey retired. If the link that was posted earlier was true about HB asking the sports writer those questions, I think if he wins NPOY, becomes an AA, and wins a national championship along with graduating, he would become a candidate for having his jersey retired.

In the grand scheme of things, he made his choice....and so be it. I feel really good about Duke's chances against them next year and I look forward to Duke busting some Tarheel championship aspirations (again).

UNC honors jerseys (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Carolina_Tar_Heels_men's_basketball), of which there are 43, but only eight are retired:


Retired basketball jerseys

Number Player Year
NC Jack Cobb 1926
20 George Glamack 1941
10 Lennie Rosenbluth 1957
12 Phil Ford 1978
52 James Worthy 1983
23 Michael Jordan 1984
33 Antawn Jamison 1998
50 Tyler Hansbrough 2009


There are two standouts on the list: Jack Cobb, who didn't have a number, so there was nothing to retire, and Antwan Jamison, who stayed only two years.

To have his jersey honored, a player must have met one of the following criteria:


MVP of a National Championship-winning team
Member of a gold medal-winning Olympic team
First- or second-team All-America
ACC Player of the Year
NCAA Tournament MOP


To have his jersey retired, the player must win one of the six or so NPOY awards, including MOP of the NCAA tournament. I would say HB is very likely to have his jersey "honored."

This is more than even I want to know on the subject.

sagegrouse

roywhite
04-19-2011, 01:17 PM
slight correction on the UNC list

Antawn Jamison was a 3-year guy; averaged 19 pts and 9.9 rebounds
He was a Tarheel who was also reasonably likeable; incoming player McAdoo appears to be somewhat similar in his game and his personality.

sagegrouse
04-19-2011, 01:30 PM
slight correction on the UNC list

Antawn Jamison was a 3-year guy; averaged 19 pts and 9.9 rebounds
He was a Tarheel who was also reasonably likeable; incoming player McAdoo appears to be somewhat similar in his game and his personality.

Jamison is a good guy by all reports.

Both he and Vince Carter played three years -- for some reason I thought it was only two.

sagegrouse

NashvilleDevil
04-19-2011, 01:53 PM
Jamison is a good guy by all reports.

Both he and Vince Carter played three years -- for some reason I thought it was only two.

sagegrouse

Sheed and Stack only played two years.

Reilly
04-19-2011, 02:05 PM
... Stack only played two years.

Unfortunately, it's not until Year 3 of the Carolina undergraduate curriculum where they cover that a week is made up of seven days.

http://www.beaumonde.net/weblog/archives/2004/03/is_jerry_stackhouse_a_bit_weir.html

burns15
04-20-2011, 04:41 PM
I'd drop Ginyard since he basically sat out the 2009 season. But you can then replace Ginyard with Green (a senior) in the starting lineup. It's still a step down from Barnes, but not as big (and just as experienced). Green wasn't 3 years older than Watts will be (Watts will be a senior). But Watts may or may not even see the court next year, so that comparison wasn't relevant anyway.

But you do have a point in terms of experience. One thing that the 2009 UNC team will have that the 2012 team won't is that the main guys (Hansbrough, Lawson, Ellington, Green, Thompson) will have played together for 2+ years coming into the season. Next year's core group (Zeller, Henson, Barnes, Strickland, Marshall) will have had one year playing together. Another major difference is that the top-end talent at PG and in the post was better on the 2009 team. Marshall and Zeller are both very good (All-ACC caliber) players, but neither has shown the level of dominance that Lawson and Hansbrough showed.

That doesn't mean that UNC won't still be arguably the best team in the country. It just means a little more variability in any given game. That matters when talking about single-elimination tournaments.

You are right about Watts, for some reason I included freshman Watts instead of Watts on the 2011 team. I still think it is valid to include Watts in the comparison, however, because of Roy's insistence on playing basically everyone who is not a walk-on. This is a major fault I believe

burns15
04-20-2011, 04:53 PM
True, but they were the best team in the ACC. :)



I would add to both of your points about experience that the 2009 group returned a Final Four team. Only one game more than 2012, but significant in terms of experience.

We'll see what that extra year brings, though. 2007 wasn't exactly a banner year for the '09 core (well, it was, but not one to get overly excited about by comparison to the years that followed). That core buckled down in '08, and returned in '09 to go further.

We'll see if the "growing pains" that the 2012 group endured in '11 will be enough to get them to that next level only one year later.

Put me in the camp that thinks they're not as good on paper as the last two dominant pre-season teams (Duke '11, Carolina '09). That said, they still probably have a better chance than most to make a deep run.

I agree that 2009 UNC was the best and most talented team in the ACC that year, and that if Duke and UNC played 10 times, UNC would win 6-8 times. However, the NCAA trophy is not given to the team that is most talented and experienced... it is given to the team that wins the tournament. In a one game situation, anything can happen

CDu
04-20-2011, 04:54 PM
You are right about Watts, for some reason I included freshman Watts instead of Watts on the 2011 team. I still think it is valid to include Watts in the comparison, however, because of Roy's insistence on playing basically everyone who is not a walk-on. This is a major fault I believe

I think it's unlikely that he'll play Watts significant minutes next year. I certainly wouldn't base the comparison on Watts to Green (who started and averaged over 25mpg). Watts only played this year because Williams prefers to rotate 4 different guys in the post and he only had 3 actual bigs (so Watts was the backup PF). Next year, UNC will have 4-5 bigs, meaning Watts won't have to play out of position. And since Watts won't have to play out of position, he'll move to about 7th on the list of UNC wing players.

wk2109
04-20-2011, 07:31 PM
I just dont think hb is that good. Now he will be a good college player but I dont think he is a franchise player in the NBA. He is slow and he settles for jumpers to much. If I were a unc fan, I would want him to attack the rim more. He is a good shooter but not that good and thats why he looked like a bust the majority of the season last year. In hucks offense if they have to play in the half court and cant get anything in the post, the wings have to create a shot by themselves and at times hb couldnt find the range therefore bad shooting nights.

Im not bitter or hating because for one, I didnt want him at Duke the moment he did the whole press conference with a skype show. Watching I was like, who does this kid think he is? Im just calling it how I see it and the way I see it, HB will be a 10 year journeyman in the NBA because 6'8" versatile wings grow on trees these days and HB is slow and passive.

Duke is looking to sign a 6'8" versatile wing in Daniels that I kind of like better because from what ive seen DD plays D. So I maybe alone here but I just dont think hb is that good.

I'm completely with you. I think he's just a glorified jumpshooter. I think Andre could put up similar numbers if he were given the type of green light to shoot that Barnes has.