2011 NBA Draft

[shoutingncu]

Maryland's Jordan Williams (http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/28141724), but no agent.

UCLA takes a hit, too (http://eye-on-college-basketball.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/26283066/28141576), but at least they'll have LDII to keep their spirits up.

[pfrduke]

Further to this list:

Ashton Gibbs of Pitt
Darius Morris of Michigan
Nicola Vucevic of USC
Tobias Harris of Tennessee

Vucevic have an agent; the others are just testing the waters (and, in my opinion, all likely to return).

[devildeac]

Searched and didn't see a thread about this, unless you count the Kyrie and Mason threads:

? Legitimate link here:

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/harrison-barnes-returning-north-carolina?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d99cacbff663d33%2C0

[Olympic Fan]

Searched and didn't see a thread about this, unless you count the Kyrie and Mason threads:

? Legitimate link here:

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/harrison-barnes-returning-north-carolina?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d99cacbff663d33%2C0

I'd be a bit skeptical about this link -- it's to a message board post on a notably unreliable draft website.

Barnes may stay, but I'll need something more reliable than this to believe it.

As for draft news, nbadraft.net is at the bottom of the totem pole. Draft Express is a little bit better ... ESPN's draft section is slightly better still.

PS Just to follow up ... the site also has a link to a post on the Bleacher Report, which cites a tweet by a guy I've never heard of. If true (and anything's possible), this is a VERY strange way for the news to leak. So far, no news from a legitmate news source or even a semi-legitimate UNC source.

[Bluedog]

Searched and didn't see a thread about this, unless you count the Kyrie and Mason threads:

? Legitimate link here:

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/harrison-barnes-returning-north-carolina?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d99cacbff663d33%2C0


I'd be a bit skeptical about this link -- it's to a message board post on a notably unreliable draft website.

Barnes may stay, but I'll need something more reliable than this to believe it.


Jeff Borzello of CBS Sports says Barnes still "gathering information" as of late yesterday.

http://twitter.com/jeffborzello


Harrison Barnes tells me he's still "gathering information" about the NBA draft, and isn't leaning either way right now.

[Duvall]

Jeff Borzello of CBS Sports says Barnes still "gathering information" as of late yesterday.

http://twitter.com/jeffborzello

Gosh, it's almost like Barnes is telling everyone what they want to hear about his upcoming big decision.

[monkey]

Gosh, it's almost like Barnes is telling everyone what they want to hear about his upcoming big decision.

Lol. I hear his mom is secretly a Cleveland Cavaliers fan...

[roywhite]

Gosh, it's almost like Barnes is telling everyone what they want to hear about his upcoming big decision.

And David Stern has been advised to have a Skype video connection?

[ajgoodfella7]

Lol. I hear his mom is secretly a Cleveland Cavaliers fan...

The Decision, Part II?

[Indoor66]

Gosh, it's almost like Barnes is telling everyone what they want to hear about his upcoming big decision.

I heard he was consulting the BronBron about announcement procedures.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Searched and didn't see a thread about this, unless you count the Kyrie and Mason threads:

? Legitimate link here:

http://www.nbadraft.net/forum/harrison-barnes-returning-north-carolina?sms_ss=facebook&at_xt=4d99cacbff663d33%2C0

The link says that with Barnes returning, someone who didn't think he would go top 5 now would. Buy Ole Roy promised Barnes he wouldn't go until 5-11, right?

http://www.bulletsforever.com/2011/4/4/2090227/roy-williams-tells-harrison-barnes-he-will-be-5th-11th-pick

[devildeac]

I'd be a bit skeptical about this link -- it's to a message board post on a notably unreliable draft website.

Barnes may stay, but I'll need something more reliable than this to believe it.

As for draft news, nbadraft.net is at the bottom of the totem pole. Draft Express is a little bit better ... ESPN's draft section is slightly better still.

PS Just to follow up ... the site also has a link to a post on the Bleacher Report, which cites a tweet by a guy I've never heard of. If true (and anything's possible), this is a VERY strange way for the news to leak. So far, no news from a legitmate news source or even a semi-legitimate UNC source.


Jeff Borzello of CBS Sports says Barnes still "gathering information" as of late yesterday.

http://twitter.com/jeffborzello

Good info. Thanks. I don't follow the NBA much so your replies and others since yours are quite helpful.

[MaxAMillion]

Gosh, it's almost like Barnes is telling everyone what they want to hear about his upcoming big decision.

Based on what? All these third hand reports of his staying are nothing more than internet gossip that flies around this time of year.

[NSDukeFan]

Based on what? All these third hand reports of his staying are nothing more than internet gossip that flies around this time of year.

I think he's keeping things close to the vest.

[Olympic Fan]

Just to update -- absolutely no press conference Tuesday. Barnes told the Daily Tar Heel today that he's still gathering info. Henson said that he'll have a decision by Saturday:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/blog/press_box/2011/04/henson_and_barnes_give_timetable_on_draft_decision

[kong123]

from what I have heard/read. Two of the guys asked for more information from Roy and they are supposed to meet with him today to discuss things further. I imagine that we will hear something within the week. I believe all three will return.

[diveonthefloor]

from what I have heard/read. Two of the guys asked for more information from Roy and they are supposed to meet with him today to discuss things further. I imagine that we will hear something within the week. I believe all three will return.

As they should. UNC-Ch is a terrific school and to miss out on the entire experience, it would take more than just NBA riches. These guys are terrific young men and will do nothing but benefit from more time in the classroom, and on the court.

[freedevil]

^ Hhmm.

[CharlestonDevil]

As they should. UNC-Ch is a terrific school and to miss out on the entire experience, it would take more than just NBA riches. These guys are terrific young men and will do nothing but benefit from more time in the classroom, and on the court.

Is it still April 1st?

[UrinalCake]

Henson said that he'll have a decision by Saturday

I guess that's when we'll get the skinny on him.

[mgtr]

I guess that's when we'll get the skinny on him.

Clever! I just don't see Henson surviving in the NBA, unless he becomes more of an outside player. Can you imagine him fighting Dwight Howard for the ball?

[Jeff Frosh]

from what I have heard/read. Two of the guys asked for more information from Roy and they are supposed to meet with him today to discuss things further. I imagine that we will hear something within the week. I believe all three will return.

Roy: "HB, you may be in the top 3 picks in the draft, but you should come back and make me look good. After all, I'm your Skype Daddy. JH, you may be a lottery pick, but the food on the road in the NBA is not as nutritious as the dadgum southern cooking you get here, and we heckuva lot know you still need more weight. TZ, you know you can't play in the NBA, so you may as well hang around to help me win another championship without having to do much coaching. And guys, please don't tell anyone, but, despite the prevailing rumor (that I keep spreading), it is the Tar Heels, not them darn Blue Devils, who underperform in the NBA. So you may as well stay for another year because it certainly could be the highlight of your basketball career. What do you say boys?"

[Billy Dat]

I think Henson will do fine in the NBA. Yeah, he'll have problems fighting Dwight Howard for the ball, but so does every other player in the NBA. He should watch Chris "Birdman" Anderson and realize that he can be better, which would make him a solid rotation player. If you are a solid rotation player for 10 years, you will make $30MM - $60MM...righteous bucks.

It is so rare that potential Lottery Picks don't leave. Jared Sullinger would be the first in a long time. That's why I assume Kyrie is gone and hope that Barnes and Henson go, too. As far as Mason is concerned, I fear that Kyle's senior year and McRoberts sophomore year may lead him to declare - in that they would have been better leaving a year earlier from a draft perspective. If he's seen as all potential now, better for him, from the standpoint of guaranteed money, to leave while he's being discussed as a first rounder. Plus, he probably thinks about the kind of touches he's going to get next year...Rivers, Curry and Dawkins are going to be options 1-3...it may come down to whether or not he thinks he can improve enough on offense to command more touches.

[kong123]

Roy: "HB, you may be in the top 3 picks in the draft, but you should come back and make me look good. After all, I'm your Skype Daddy. JH, you may be a lottery pick, but the food on the road in the NBA is not as nutritious as the dadgum southern cooking you get here, and we heckuva lot know you still need more weight. TZ, you know you can't play in the NBA, so you may as well hang around to help me win another championship without having to do much coaching. And guys, please don't tell anyone, but, despite the prevailing rumor (that I keep spreading), it is the Tar Heels, not them darn Blue Devils, who underperform in the NBA. So you may as well stay for another year because it certainly could be the highlight of your basketball career. What do you say boys?"

maybe he could get the Daily Tarheel to write an editorial telling him to "go pro"

[El_Diablo]

Roy: "HB, you may be in the top 3 picks in the draft, but you should come back and make me look good. After all, I'm your Skype Daddy. JH, you may be a lottery pick, but the food on the road in the NBA is not as nutritious as the dadgum southern cooking you get here, and we heckuva lot know you still need more weight. TZ, you know you can't play in the NBA, so you may as well hang around to help me win another championship without having to do much coaching. And guys, please don't tell anyone, but, despite the prevailing rumor (that I keep spreading), it is the Tar Heels, not them darn Blue Devils, who underperform in the NBA. So you may as well stay for another year because it certainly could be the highlight of your basketball career. What do you say boys?"

No, Roy is lying to Harrison by telling him he's in the 5-11 range.

[Reilly]

I tried to find Roy's quotes about McCants possibly going pro after the 2003-04 season. It was some of the most self-serving, transparent tripe I'd ever seen from a coach. McCants of course stuck around for one more year and bolted in 2005.

I'm guessing Barnes is bright enough to figure out that Roy's in it for himself. Whatever's good for Roy is good for the player, and for Haitians, for that matter.

[kong123]

I tried to find Roy's quotes about McCants possibly going pro after the 2003-04 season. It was some of the most self-serving, transparent tripe I'd ever seen from a coach. McCants of course stuck around for one more year and bolted in 2005.

I'm guessing Barnes is bright enough to figure out that Roy's in it for himself. Whatever's good for Roy is good for the player, and for Haitians, for that matter.

I believe this is so unfair. I understand where you are coming from and I understand that many UNC fans would say the same thing about K if KI ended up staying around, but it isn't fair no matter what team you pull for.

I have read the same comment supposedly made by Roy about HB going anywhere from 5-11 in the draft. Is this a direct quote from Roy? I do not believe it was, it was from Pat Forde. But, regardless of the validity of the quote, it is mean spirited to try and imply Roy would forsake HB's future plans just to benefit himself and the program. If someone would say that K made KI come back from his injury, would that be fair? Come on guys, be better than this.

[Reilly]

kong123, I'm unclear what you believe is unfair. You write: "[I]t is mean spirited to try and imply Roy would forsake HB's future plans just to benefit himself and the program." I did not try to imply that; I think I said it point blank. And I do not believe it is mean-spirited; it's simply my non-mean-spirited take on Roy and his MO.

Roy strikes me as someone who is in it for himself first before being in it for a program or his players. There's nothing inherently wrong with that -- with thinking of yourself first. We all do it to a large degree.

In 2000, Roy turned down UNC? Why? I believe it was because Kansas was going to be loaded that coming year as compared to Carolina. I could be wrong about that. But that's what I believe.

In 2003, Roy came back to UNC? Why? I believe it was because UNC was going to be loaded that coming year as compared to Kansas. I could be wrong about that. But that's what I believe.

I recall reading a quote at some point during the 2003-2004 season or shortly thereafter, from Roy about McCants and the possibility of going pro; the quote was something about Roy telling McCants "if you just commit to staying two more years [or something, whatever he had left] we'll do great things together". I went looking for that quote just now but could not find it. It struck me, at the time, as being very self-serving and phony ... like he was trying to make it all sound like it was in McCants' best interest, but transparently it seemed like it was all about Roy. The fakery of it all really struck me. I could be wrong about my memory (why I went looking for the quote); I could be wrong about Roy's true motivations. But that's how it struck me, and stuck in my memory.

I have no idea what Roy has told Barnes. Somebody above said the 5-11 stuff; not me. I have no idea. I do have some sort of idea about Roy's motivations in these endeavors (switching jobs, advising players). That idea is based solely on what I read and see. That idea certainly could be wrong. Roy strikes me as phony in many instances, esp. when saying he is putting others interests above his own (Kansas program; UNC program; McCants; Barnes). Maybe I'm wrong that he's phony in these instances. For his sake, I hope I am. It is, however, my honest assessment based on the little bits of information I've seen, not a mean-spirited swipe.

[Billy Dat]

The Carolina situation is a little like the decision the Florida OhFours had to make in 2006, minus the small detail of them winning a national championship and pusuing a repeat. Noah and Horford would certainly have been top 10 picks in 2006, but them came back to chase history. If Barnes, Henson and Zeller all come back to join Marshall and the rest of the rookies, they will be a real favorite. The Florida OhFours were best of friends so that factored in.

At Duke, it's a totally different dynamic in that we are definitely losing 2/5ths of our starters and, likely our biggest talent. But, we are bringing in a big haul so it will kind of be a 1999/00 year or a 2002/03 year. Mason is an X-Factor. The question is, how much better is Mason/Miles/Ryan/Josh/Marshall than Miles/Ryan/Josh/Marshall?

[kong123]

looking at how McCants turned out, think he could have used a bit more guidance?

if that is how you feel, fine. obviously not going to be able to change your opinion of him. i just think that having such a negative opinion of someone you have only a limited amount of info on isn't really much of an opinion. its a bias.

[El_Diablo]

I believe this is so unfair. I understand where you are coming from and I understand that many UNC fans would say the same thing about K if KI ended up staying around, but it isn't fair no matter what team you pull for.

I have read the same comment supposedly made by Roy about HB going anywhere from 5-11 in the draft. Is this a direct quote from Roy? I do not believe it was, it was from Pat Forde. But, regardless of the validity of the quote, it is mean spirited to try and imply Roy would forsake HB's future plans just to benefit himself and the program. If someone would say that K made KI come back from his injury, would that be fair? Come on guys, be better than this.

So you think a writer for ESPN is just fabricating the story and attributing that draft projection to Roy? That seems a little mean spirited to try and imply that a member of the media would be so unprofessional as to make it up. Come on kong, be better than this.

Otherwise, if you want to defend Roy, please name 4 players in this year's draft who will definitely be drafted ahead of Barnes, and up to 10 who could reasonably be drafted ahead of him.

[kong123]

So you think a writer for ESPN is just fabricating the story and attributing that draft projection to Roy? That seems a little mean spirited to try and imply that a member of the media would be so unprofessional as to make it up. Come on kong, be better than this.

Otherwise, if you want to defend Roy, please name 4 players in this year's draft who will definitely be drafted ahead of Barnes, and up to 10 who could reasonably be drafted ahead of him.


my post was not to deny that Roy said it, it was to point out that it wasn't a direct quote from Roy. So, if it isn't a direct quote from Roy, then where did it come from? If you cannot find a direct source, is it conceivable that the quote isn't completely accurate?

Having said that, I have no problem with the quote if it is true. For the record, I also feel that HB is in the top 5. I also think that HB knows he is in the top 5. My point is, do you honestly think Roy is trying to lie to HB to keep him for 1 more year? Either you are predetermined to believe everything negative about Roy and UNC or you are not. There is a middle ground, but on a forum like this, it is usually that black and white. If you are predetermined to believe everything negative, then that has to be taken into account when reading someones posts. If they do not have the ability to be objective about something, then their thoughts become less than an opinion and more of a rant.

[diveonthefloor]

But, regardless of the validity of the quote, it is mean spirited to try and imply Roy would forsake HB's future plans just to benefit himself and the program. If someone would say that K made KI come back from his injury, would that be fair? Come on guys, be better than this.

Perspective.

Most UNC fans will think that K would do whatever it takes to help himself over his player; and many Duke fans probably think the same of Roy.

They are both class guys. Other than the occasional Roy gaff (e.g., the dumb Haitian earthquake comment), he probably means well.

[johnb]

I read various back and forths, but does anyone have definitive information about:

1. The availability and size of insurance policies that would cover people like Kyrie and Harrison if they stay and get injured. I recall Danny Ferry took out one, and I assume they're still out there.

2. Whether 2011 draftees will have their contracts based on the current CBA or the next one?

[El_Diablo]

my post was not to deny that Roy said it, it was to point out that it wasn't a direct quote from Roy. So, if it isn't a direct quote from Roy, then where did it come from? If you cannot find a direct source, is it conceivable that the quote isn't completely accurate?

Having said that, I have no problem with the quote if it is true. For the record, I also feel that HB is in the top 5. I also think that HB knows he is in the top 5. My point is, do you honestly think Roy is trying to lie to HB to keep him for 1 more year? Either you are predetermined to believe everything negative about Roy and UNC or you are not. There is a middle ground, but on a forum like this, it is usually that black and white. If you are predetermined to believe everything negative, then that has to be taken into account when reading someones posts. If they do not have the ability to be objective about something, then their thoughts become less than an opinion and more of a rant.

You're right. I am biased. I believe Roy Williams is a good coach but a petty man.

Maybe it's completely unfounded, but whether he's targeting Duke targets (like making a late run at Kyrie Irving after he already had Larry Drew and Kendall Marshall committed for 2010-11) to try to prevent them from going to Duke, publicly belittling his own players, throwing an opposing fan out of the Dean Dome for yelling "Miss it Deon!" during a free throw, publicly belittling his players some more, comparing his struggles to the Haiti earthquake, ripping Tarheel fans on talk radio, or changing hotels in Charlotte to get one "as nice or nicer than" Duke's hotel...I have been unimpressed the picture that develops when I start to connect all the dots about Roy's personality. And that was all just in the last 18 months.

After the 2008 season, Lawson, Ellington, and Green all considered going pro. Roy said he would take charge of filtering all the draft chatter down to them so they could make an informed decision--and guess what?--they all came away thinking their draft stock was much lower than they expected, and they all returned. Even Lawson, who later admitted that he wanted to get out of Chapel Hill and would have done so if he thought he could. And now I hear that Roy's telling Barnes he's in the 5-11 range...what do you expect me to think is going on here? You expect me to think that he's incapable of acting in his own self-interest by nudging Barnes into returning by downplaying his draft stock a little bit? How else do you explain a 5-11 projection at this point? If you think he's incapable of being petty or acting in his own interest, then I would submit that you're just as biased as me. ;)

[superdave]

The 2011 draft was shaping up to be a 6 man draft. Irving, Williams, Barnes, Sullinger, Perry Jones, Kanter all seemed to be projected as good NBA players. You could go a little deeper and throw in Terrence Jones, Knight, and maybe Kemba.

But it's really shaping up to be weak as more guys are dropping out. Sullinger is already out and it looks like a couple of guys listed above may stay in college one more year. I suppose the NBA is getting what they ask for with the labor problems. This could be really good for college basketball next year though.

[HCheek37]

A yearly event in Portsmouth, Virginia starts tomorrow with 64 seniors invited to a camp that has produced some NBA success stories. No Duke players will be attending but big names such as Pullen, Howard, Diebler, Harrellson, Skeen, Dunn, Stitt, Tracy Smith, etc will be there.

I looked at the rosters briefly and was definitely intrigued to see how these three teams fare:

Roger Brown's
Coaches : Billy Mann & John Kelly
23 Allen, Jeff Virginia Tech F 6' 7"
20 Dia, Papa SMU F 6' 9"
33 Diebler, Jon Ohio State F 6' 6"
22 Harper, Justin Richmond F 6' 10"
11 Muldrow, Sam South Carolina F 6' 9"
14 Goudelock, Andrew College of Charleston G 6' 2"
25 Hurtt, Justin Tulsa G 6' 4"
10 Pullen, Jacob Kansas State G 6' 0"

Talk about a team that will be shooting tons of 3s and shooting it from anywhere. Goudelock, Pullen, Diebler and even Hurtt will be firing them up.

Portsmouth Sports Club
Coaches : Tony Holloway & P.J. Honore
15 Macklin, Vernon Florida C 6' 10"
1 Holland, John Boston University F 6' 5"
12 Skeen, Jamie Virginia Commonwealth F 6' 9"
10 White, Billy San Diego State F 6' 8"
5 Clark, Bill Duquesne G 6' 5"
0 Dunn, LaceDarius Baylor G 6' 4"
13 Fisher, Corey Villanova G 6' 1"
3 Stone, Julyan Texas - El Paso G 6' 7"

A very tough starting 5 here with Macklin, Skeen, White, Fisher, and Dunn all being the stars of their teams. Good balance and scoring here, I look for Skeen and Macklin to get a shot at the NBA.

Mike Duman
Coaches : Max Gillespie & Jerry Hasty
# Last Name College Pos Ht Wt PPG RPG APG SPG BPG FG% 3PT% FT%
14 McGhee, Gary Pittsburgh C 6' 11"
3 Holiday, Justin Washington F 6' 6"
12 Howard, Matt Butler F 6' 8"
10 Johnson, Gary Texas F 6' 6"
1 Delaney, Malcolm Virginia Tech G 6' 3"
4 Gray, Steven Gonzaga G 6' 5"
2 Summers, Durrell Michigan State G 6' 5"
0 Wright, Chris Georgetown G 6' 1"

This is my pick to win it, FWIW, they have inside toughness and shooting from Holiday, Delaney, mixed with Summers and Gray's athleticism. Figure 3 or 4 NBA shots here too.

Other notes:
Lavoy Allen (Temple) and Malcolm Thomas (SDSU) team up after their teams has a 2 OT battle in the Round of 32.

Jimmy Butler (Marq) and Rick Jackson (Syracuse) team up after Marquette upset Syracuse in the Round of 32 this year. Both are NBA prospects.

Matt Howard (Butler) and Gary McGhee (Pittsburgh) team up after the epic finish that Butler/Pittsburgh had in the tournament.

Jeff Allen (VT) and Justin Harper (Richmond) team up after Harper's team possibly took Va Tech's spot in the tourney by winning the A10 tourney. (only received a 12 seed which means they likely weren't in before that win)

[kong123]

You're right. I am biased. I believe Roy Williams is a good coach but a petty man.

Maybe it's completely unfounded, but whether he's targeting Duke targets (like making a late run at Kyrie Irving after he already had Larry Drew and Kendall Marshall committed for 2010-11) to try to prevent them from going to Duke, publicly belittling his own players, throwing an opposing fan out of the Dean Dome for yelling "Miss it Deon!" during a free throw, publicly belittling his players some more, comparing his struggles to the Haiti earthquake, ripping Tarheel fans on talk radio, or changing hotels in Charlotte to get one "as nice or nicer than" Duke's hotel...I have been unimpressed the picture that develops when I start to connect all the dots about Roy's personality. And that was all just in the last 18 months.

After the 2008 season, Lawson, Ellington, and Green all considered going pro. Roy said he would take charge of filtering all the draft chatter down to them so they could make an informed decision--and guess what?--they all came away thinking their draft stock was much lower than they expected, and they all returned. Even Lawson, who later admitted that he wanted to get out of Chapel Hill and would have done so if he thought he could. And now I hear that Roy's telling Barnes he's in the 5-11 range...what do you expect me to think is going on here? You expect me to think that he's incapable of acting in his own self-interest by nudging Barnes into returning by downplaying his draft stock a little bit? How else do you explain a 5-11 projection at this point? If you think he's incapable of being petty or acting in his own interest, then I would submit that you're just as biased as me. ;)

Look, I am not going to try and defend my points to you. You are biased, as am I. However, I do not dislike or disrespect Coach K the way you do Roy. I am capable of taking information and making a decision that doesn't adhere strictly to my fan bias. That is largely due to my time here on the DBR. I think it has ultimately made me a better fan of the rivalry. From a UNC fans point of few, there is just as much negative to say about K as there is Roy. Do you hear me saying that? No. Many on the board mention that I am one of the fairest UNC fans they know. I think that is sad. Its sad that the stereotype of a UNC fan is a negative thing. But, don't think the same isn't said about someone being a typical Duke fan. You probably could care less. All in all, I am on a Duke forum and I have to realize that you guys are going to say things like this and continue on your merry way. I hope from time to time, fair minded members on the board will stand up to posters like yourself that help formulate the Duke fan stereotype. I am usually disappointed when that doesn't happen so I try and do it myself. That gets usually gets me banned. So, I guess I should learn my lesson and understand that you come to this forum to talk to like minded people and that you are not here to be a fair minded person. In the end, and my presence is a speed bump to that experience.

[Ralph-Wiggum]

After the 2008 season, Lawson, Ellington, and Green all considered going pro. Roy said he would take charge of filtering all the draft chatter down to them so they could make an informed decision--and guess what?--they all came away thinking their draft stock was much lower than they expected, and they all returned. Even Lawson, who later admitted that he wanted to get out of Chapel Hill and would have done so if he thought he could.

There's some serious revisionist history going on here. Ellington and Green were definitely not ready to turn pro after 2008. Ellington would have almost certainly have been drafted in the 2nd round and Danny Green might not have been drafted at all. Both players improved their stock by coming back for another year.

Lawson, on the other hand, was ready to turn pro and had been told that the Nuggets would likely draft him with the 20th pick. Teams higher up in the draft were non-committal. But then Lawson got pulled over for driving after drinking, drinking under the age of 21, and driving with a suspended license. Those charges made Denver hesitant to draft Lawson and they told him so. So instead of risking it, Lawson decided to go back to school. Without those charges, I am certain he would have stayed in the draft.

UNC has had plenty of players enter the draft early since Roy came, perhaps more than any other school (?). And a number of those players certainly could have used an extra year or two to improve (Brandon Wright anyone?), but their stock was high and so Roy told them to go. With that record, it seems pretty disingenuous to suggest that Roy tries to lowball players into coming back.

[El_Diablo]

Look, I am not going to try and defend my points to you. You are biased, as am I. However, I do not dislike or disrespect Coach K the way you do Roy. I am capable of taking information and making a decision that doesn't adhere strictly to my fan bias. That is largely due to my time here on the DBR. I think it has ultimately made me a better fan of the rivalry. From a UNC fans point of few, there is just as much negative to say about K as there is Roy. Do you hear me saying that? No. Many on the board mention that I am one of the fairest UNC fans they know. I think that is sad. Its sad that the stereotype of a UNC fan is a negative thing. But, don't think the same isn't said about someone being a typical Duke fan. You probably could care less. All in all, I am on a Duke forum and I have to realize that you guys are going to say things like this and continue on your merry way. I hope from time to time, fair minded members on the board will stand up to posters like yourself that help formulate the Duke fan stereotype. I am usually disappointed when that doesn't happen so I try and do it myself. That gets usually gets me banned. So, I guess I should learn my lesson and understand that you come to this forum to talk to like minded people and that you are not here to be a fair minded person. In the end, and my presence is a speed bump to that experience.

I didn't really have any personal dislike for Roy until very recently, and it was due to his own behavior and public statements. Maybe he's a great, selfless individual who cares nothing about himself, but that's just not the image he's projected recently, so my perception of him may be unfairly biased. Sorry if that offends you. But that doesn't mean I can't call BS if Roy starts pitching the "5-11 range" spiel to Barnes. If the situation were reversed, and Coach K were acting as Kyrie's sole intermediary and reportedly telling him that his draft projections were only in the 4-10 range, and Kyrie then decided to come back, think about how you would view it. Would you feel that Coach K was being completely forthright, when every other source on the planet had Kyrie in the top three? Of course you wouldn't; neither would I. The only problem is...that set of facts doesn't exist here, so whatever your current "dislike or disrespect" of Coach K, it would not be affected by that same sort of distaste that Duke fans may feel about Roy now when it is reported that he's saying something like that to one of his players. I mean, come on. If you can't call out that 5-11 projection as dubious, then I don't know what you can question as a fan.

Look, I don't know for a fact that Roy's privately underselling Barnes' stock to Harrison and Shirley...maybe NBA scouts are extremely turned off by Barnes' ego and thus quietly dropped him a few spots, or maybe Roy's now telling him he's in the 2-6 range. I really don't know. But what I do know is that I noticed a clear disconnect between the consensus projections and what Roy was reportedly telling him. I would have to surrender my fan card if I passed on such an easy opportunity to point out Roy's failings as a human being! :D For your own sanity, please don't get too upset when you hear Duke fans do this, especially on a Duke message board. I will get my jabs in when I can...but it's only half serious (since I realize my perspective is limited). I'm not stalking around every second of the day brooding about Roy; I just find his antics lend themselves to easy criticism, so when I sit down for a few minutes to make a critical comment about him, perhaps it comes off a little strong. But it's Roy's fault--he needs to stop giving me so much daggum ammunition!!! :D

I live in North Carolina and have UNC friends. You are not the only reasonable (or reasonable-ish ;)) UNC fan I know. I don't want to sidetrack the draft conversation any further on this issue (other than to reiterate the absurdity of Barnes' coach telling him that he honestly believes Barnes could be drafted 11th overall!), but please feel free to PM me if you want to continue.

[El_Diablo]

it seems pretty disingenuous to suggest that Roy tries to lowball players into coming back.

I think telling Barnes he could get drafted 11th overall is lowballing him. To each his own, though...

[Reilly]

looking at how McCants turned out, think he could have used a bit more guidance?

if that is how you feel, fine. obviously not going to be able to change your opinion of him. i just think that having such a negative opinion of someone you have only a limited amount of info on isn't really much of an opinion. its a bias.

Let's have some fun with words, kong123. First things first, you're right: you are not going to change my opinion of Roy. You might if you produced some relevant facts or anecdotes, but not in simply dismissing opinions, based on events, as "bias."

opinion: "a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty."

bias: "a particular tendency or inclination, especially one that prevents unprejudiced consideration of a question"

My opinion -- not bias -- about Roy Williams has to do with his handling of his job flirtations in 2000 & 2003 [Gut didn't talk to Roy for three years post-2000 -- think that was b/c Gut considered Roy such a stand up guy?] and my opinion -- not bias -- has to do with what struck me as his self-serving (transparently so to my memory) quotes about McCants.

Hate to disappoint you, but just because he's Carolina's coach doesn't make me think less of him reflexively -- I'm not biased that way. But when Roy acts like a self-serving fool, I begin to form opinions about the man. Surely I'm not the first, nor the last, who will consider him a self-serving phony, based on events (not bias). We may all be wrong. Or not.

[kong123]

My opinion -- not bias -- about Roy Williams has to do with his handling of his job flirtations in 2000 & 2003 [Gut didn't talk to Roy for three years post-2000 -- think that was b/c Gut considered Roy such a stand up guy?] and my opinion -- not bias -- has to do with what struck me as his self-serving (transparently so to my memory) quotes about McCants.

do you think Coach Gut was upset with Roy because he did not leave Kansas and run straight to UNC? I think it is pretty obvious that this is the reason Gut was angry.

So, lets look a bit further into why Roy didn't jump at his first opportunity. Is it because he was proud of what he had built at Kansas? That he wanted to remain at a program that was thriving? A program that made him who he was? Would you consider that a possibility?

Ok, so here is the other option. Roy felt like he was close to winning a NC at Kansas and didn't want to pass that up. He knew that the following year could be special and nothing was more important to him than winning it all. Not even UNC. Remember, he doesn't give a crap about UNC.

Which is it? Where are your facts there? Either could be true and neither could be true. But, you take bits and pieces of what you want from the facts to formulate an opinion that paints Roy in the worst possible light.

Another example. Roy apparently tells HB that he has been told by his sources that HB could go anywhere between 5-11. You automatically assume Roy made that number up to steer HB back to school. Is it possible that the 5-11 is actually what Roy was told? Of course it isn't, we are talking about Roy Williams. Roy only cares about himself.

Its like we are either Republicans or Democrats. If you hear Rush Limbaugh say something, you automatically accept it. If Bill Mauher says something against the Republicans, you buy into that. You have to tow the party line? You have to believe the worst possible scenario every time. You are completely closed off to any other thought process. So, because of this, I say your bias makes your opinion worthless to me. You put absolutely no thought into your opinion, just your response to me.

[jipops]

Is it because he was proud of what he had built at Kansas?


Wha? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kansas already a storied and immensely successful program before Roy got there? What exactly did he build at KU? He obviously did a great job there, no denying that.

[kong123]

Wha? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Kansas already a storied and immensely successful program before Roy got there? What exactly did he build at KU? He obviously did a great job there, no denying that.

Kansas was on probation and had a post season ban when he got there. he took over, ran a clean program, and became the coach with the highest win percentage of active coaches.

he didn't invent the wheel, but he did take Kansas up a notch nationally.

[Reilly]

...You put absolutely no thought into your opinion, just your response to me.

Wrong again. I never thought one way or the other about Roy. I don't reflexively hate just b/c somebody's connected to Carolina. Thought Dean wonderfully detail-oriented, appreciated the true affection he seemed to engender in his players. Roy wasn't on my radar. But then he started acting like a fool, it seemed to me. Struck me as odd. Wish I could find the McCants quote -- really just struck me as out of tune for a coach to say, and self-serving. It was sort of a slow dawning on me: he's a phony. Self-serving phony. It's my opinion, is all. Thought went into it, analysis of various episodes in his public life. I also put thought into my response to you. Hope you appreciated it.

[Chicago 1995]

The reason people think Roy is being self serving in telling Barnes he could slide to 11 is that Roy is the only person saying that. There are a lot of credible reporters who cover the draft and the NBA and I haven't seen any of them suggesting Barnes would slide like that. He's the #3 prospect on most boards at worst. And then there is what Roy is telling him. These guys have sources too, you know.

Couple that with some questionable comments and advice in the past -- Lawson, particularly, Hansbrough arguably, Davis, McCants -- and Roy's act when struggling in 2010, and it's fair to wonder if it isn't, in his mind, all about Roy all the time.






do you think Coach Gut was upset with Roy because he did not leave Kansas and run straight to UNC? I think it is pretty obvious that this is the reason Gut was angry.

So, lets look a bit further into why Roy didn't jump at his first opportunity. Is it because he was proud of what he had built at Kansas? That he wanted to remain at a program that was thriving? A program that made him who he was? Would you consider that a possibility?

Ok, so here is the other option. Roy felt like he was close to winning a NC at Kansas and didn't want to pass that up. He knew that the following year could be special and nothing was more important to him than winning it all. Not even UNC. Remember, he doesn't give a s**t about UNC.

Which is it? Where are your facts there? Either could be true and neither could be true. But, you take bits and pieces of what you want from the facts to formulate an opinion that paints Roy in the worst possible light.

Another example. Roy apparently tells HB that he has been told by his sources that HB could go anywhere between 5-11. You automatically assume Roy made that number up to steer HB back to school. Is it possible that the 5-11 is actually what Roy was told? Of course it isn't, we are talking about Roy Williams. Roy only cares about himself.

Its like we are either Republicans or Democrats. If you hear Rush Limbaugh say something, you automatically accept it. If Bill Mauher says something against the Republicans, you buy into that. You have to tow the party line? You have to believe the worst possible scenario every time. You are completely closed off to any other thought process. So, because of this, I say your bias makes your opinion worthless to me. You put absolutely no thought into your opinion, just your response to me.

[Duke79UNLV77]

Kansas was on probation and had a post season ban when he got there. he took over, ran a clean program, and became the coach with the highest win percentage of active coaches.

he didn't invent the wheel, but he did take Kansas up a notch nationally.

Kansas lost a scholarship as punishment thanks to Ole Roy. He said he'd called the compliance office, but no one there remembered receiving his call. Like Derrick Rose, Deshawn Stevenson travelled to retake his SATs. In hospitable North Carolina, Stevenson's scores improved even more than Rose's. Ole Roy is lucky the NCAA caught Stevenson's in time, though he insisted Stevenson had just been studying hard. Take 3 didn't go so well for Stevenson. Lester Earl, anyone? Why did the Pump Brothers from California have an AAU team in Kansas with a steady flow of players going to college there? They sure did make a lot of money selling tickets. Luckily, there are no records for Ticketsgate from Ole Roy's time. Boosters got to football and even women's basketball at Kansas, but sure, they ignored the program they cared the most about. Just like at UNC. So, you'll stake Ole Roy's credibility on the projection of Barnes as a #11 draft pick?

[jipops]

Kansas was on probation and had a post season ban when he got there. he took over, ran a clean program, and became the coach with the highest win percentage of active coaches.

he didn't invent the wheel, but he did take Kansas up a notch nationally.

I'm aware of the probation, post-Larry Brown national title. A subjective argument obviously but I think it can be agreed upon that Roy continued on Kansas' winning ways. I just didn't think it could actually be inferred that he built a program there (which I don't think you were actually inferring) or that he even built something at all. Roy has proved to be an excellent program sustainer. But a Dean Smith, Phog Allen, Mike Krzyzewski, Adolph Rupp - program builder type, it's hard to see Roy being at that level, no matter how many titles he ultimately wins. But I guess we'll never get a chance to really know will we?

[moonpie23]

if everything was so rosy, why didn't roy stay at kansas?

[Scoring Point]

The reason people think Roy is being self serving in telling Barnes he could slide to 11 is that Roy is the only person saying that. There are a lot of credible reporters who cover the draft and the NBA and I haven't seen any of them suggesting Barnes would slide like that. He's the #3 prospect on most boards at worst. And then there is what Roy is telling him. These guys have sources too, you know.

Couple that with some questionable comments and advice in the past -- Lawson, particularly, Hansbrough arguably, Davis, McCants -- and Roy's act when struggling in 2010, and it's fair to wonder if it isn't, in his mind, all about Roy all the time.

I would like nothing more than for Barnes to leave. But I think the views of NBA scouts and GMs on him are a lot more divided than the draft boards, most of which work from the same set of (relatively limited) information, suggest. They all love his skill set, particularly his shooting stroke, his competitiveness/moxie and willingness to play D. But many view him as only a decent athlete, not particularly quick or explosive, at position where he'll be going up against a lot of guys with freaky athleticism. He also takes a lot of shots to get his points, and rarely attacks the basket (just 16% of his points this year from FTs). So there are some with legitimate questions about how high his ceiling may be.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'm aware of the probation, post-Larry Brown national title. A subjective argument obviously but I think it can be agreed upon that Roy continued on Kansas' winning ways. I just didn't think it could actually be inferred that he built a program there (which I don't think you were actually inferring) or that he even built something at all. Roy has proved to be an excellent program sustainer. But a Dean Smith, Phog Allen, Mike Krzyzewski, Adolph Rupp - program builder type, it's hard to see Roy being at that level, no matter how many titles he ultimately wins. But I guess we'll never get a chance to really know will we?

Sustaining a program in many ways is more difficult than creating one from scratch. First and foremost, the fan base is breathing down your neck from day one. While this happens at a lot of schools, it's exponentially worse at high-level programs. Second, you are expected to always perform at a high level. Making the tourney is a given, but FF are expected year in and year out. That's not a lot of pressure.... Third, you will always get compared to your predecessors, whether fair or not. This agian leads to added pressure.

I'm not saying that Roy is more impressive than Coach K (not at all, actually. Coach K is still in a league of his own), but I think that Roy's achievements at KU and UNC - especially with a clean program - is incredible. Look at Doherty at UNC, Gillispie at Kentucky, every coach post-Wooden at UCLA; these coaches were considered some of the best up-and-coming coaches and crashed and burned because they couldn't handle the pressure.

I really don't like Roy - I think the way he handles the media is childish and pathetic. He treats his players with such disrespect. I feel he has little loyalty. But man! That guy can recruit and coach.

Anywho, just my two cents. As always, I hope UNC loses all of its games next year.

[dukeballboy88]

I read that most NBA GM's are comparing Barnes to Sean Elliot. They think he will be good but not a franchise player. I also read that NBA GM's think it would be wise for all to come back to school if there is a lockout missing any games!

[gumbomoop]

I would like nothing more than for Barnes to leave. But I think the views of NBA scouts and GMs on him are a lot more divided than the draft boards, most of which work from the same set of (relatively limited) information, suggest. They all love his skill set, particularly his shooting stroke, his competitiveness/moxie and willingness to play D. But many view him as only a decent athlete, not particularly quick or explosive, at position where he'll be going up against a lot of guys with freaky athleticism. He also takes a lot of shots to get his points, and rarely attacks the basket (just 16% of his points this year from FTs). So there are some with legitimate questions about how high his ceiling may be.

Two interesting points here:

quick/explosive - This is my impression, too. Now, he's powerful enough to be explosive, but his handle is too inconsistent just yet.

rarely attacks - There might be a logical connection between his handle-deficiencies and his hesitancy to go to the rim more. He had a few thunder dunks over the season, but far fewer than one might have expected. He seemed to settle for the 3 a bit too often. Maybe that was a function of his career plan: he's an NBA 3 and will make his living hitting jumpers and playing good D.

[rotogod00]

I read that most NBA GM's are comparing Barnes to Sean Elliot. They think he will be good but not a franchise player. I also read that NBA GM's think it would be wise for all to come back to school if there is a lockout missing any games!

I've read Paul Pierce comparisons. Bit closer to a franchise player

[Starter]

You know, Sean Elliott was actually a pretty good player with a lot of heart. Before his kidney went bad, he was a really solid NBA player who contributed mightily to an NBA championship team. He also hit one of the greatest shots (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9FDboZTyeuA) in NBA history, while being very sick at the time.

Just saying, Barnes is being compared to Sean Elliott like that's some sort of scarlet letter. If I draft Barnes -- even in the top 5 -- and he turns out a versatile two-time All-Star who averaged like 16 points per game before getting sick, and excelled when it mattered most, I'd be more than okay with it.

Sorry, more about Sean Elliott than Barnes there. :)

[-jk]

Morris twins declare (http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_8574/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=eLhivSQ7&detailindex=1). Kansas stepping up interest in Daniels.

-jk

[Newton_14]

Two interesting points here:

quick/explosive - This is my impression, too. Now, he's powerful enough to be explosive, but his handle is too inconsistent just yet.

rarely attacks - There might be a logical connection between his handle-deficiencies and his hesitancy to go to the rim more. He had a few thunder dunks over the season, but far fewer than one might have expected. He seemed to settle for the 3 a bit too often. Maybe that was a function of his career plan: he's an NBA 3 and will make his living hitting jumpers and playing good D.

Agree on everything here with one exception. Barnes has made it clear several times that he views himself as an NBA 2/SG.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

Agree on everything here with one exception. Barnes has made it clear several times that he views himself as an NBA 2/SG.

Yes but what he wants is not always going to be what he gets. As of right now he is viewed by the NBA as a 3.

[sagegrouse]

Yes but what he wants is not always going to be what he gets. As of right now he is viewed by the NBA as a 3.

And I hear him making comparisons of himself to Scottie Pippen. Well, I knew Scottie Pippen. Scottie Pippen was a friend of mine. And no, Harrison, you are no Scottie Pippen.

sagegrouse

[UrinalCake]

So let me get this straight: Henson, Zeller, and Barnes all met with Roy last week around the same time. Shortly after those meetings, Henson and Zeller announce they're coming back. Barnes has been silent ever since. Does anyone else interpret this as a sign that he's probably more likely to be leaving?

[oldnavy]

So let me get this straight: Henson, Zeller, and Barnes all met with Roy last week around the same time. Shortly after those meetings, Henson and Zeller announce they're coming back. Barnes has been silent ever since. Does anyone else interpret this as a sign that he's probably more likely to be leaving?

I think it is more of a sign that Barnes wants to spotlight for himself when he makes his announcement. He can't share a headline, come on he's the BLAAAACK FALCONNNNN!!! (echo sounds....)

[nocilla]

So let me get this straight: Henson, Zeller, and Barnes all met with Roy last week around the same time. Shortly after those meetings, Henson and Zeller announce they're coming back. Barnes has been silent ever since. Does anyone else interpret this as a sign that he's probably more likely to be leaving?

That is what I thought.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I think it is more of a sign that Barnes wants to spotlight for himself when he makes his announcement. He can't share a headline, come on he's the BLAAAACK FALCONNNNN!!! (echo sounds....)
Maybe he'll Skype it.

[Bluedog]

Perry Jones is returning to Baylor next season. That's now two top five picks - Jones and Sullinger - who have decided to return to school. Baylor should be quite solid next season and this year's NBA draft is looking incredible weak.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6331762

I wonder what Brandon Knight, HB, and Derrick Williams will decide to do...DraftExpress has Knight going #6 now with HB going #4 and Williams going #2.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

There is no reason for a kid to rush and announce his decision before the deadline date unless he his 100% sure. Just because we are all intently interested does/should not matter.

Why not wait and look over all the potential picks that may decide to enter, see if anything crazy happens, and get all the information possible right to the deadline?

Seems a wise move on HB's part to take his time to me.

UNC is in good shape either way. HB comes back, really nice...decides to go...McAdoo is plugged in. Roy has done a nice job here with his recruiting strategy to potentially have both options available. A little luck and HB decides to stay, and that's how championship quality teams are formed.

[G man]

There is no reason for a kid to rush and announce his decision before the deadline date unless he his 100% sure. Just because we are all intently interested does/should not matter.

Why not wait and look over all the potential picks that may decide to enter, see if anything crazy happens, and get all the information possible right to the deadline?

Seems a wise move on HB's part to take his time to me.

UNC is in good shape either way. HB comes back, really nice...decides to go...McAdoo is plugged in. Roy has done a nice job here with his recruiting strategy to potentially have both options available. A little luck and HB decides to stay, and that's how championship quality teams are formed.

You can lump me in with the crowd that despises everything that is UNC, but I must admit you are correct. Roy looked like he lost his evaluation skills in regard to recruiting (example Wears and Larry Drew), but his current roster and incoming class looks very good. Question is will he get them to mold into a championship caliber team? It appears that the talent is there.

[Greg_Newton]

Scott Van Pelt tweeted earlier (http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-basketball/2011/4/11/2104903/harrison-barnes-unc-basketball-2011-nba-draft) that he's hearing Barnes will return. Lots of people saying the same.

Bleh.

[dukelifer]

So let me get this straight: Henson, Zeller, and Barnes all met with Roy last week around the same time. Shortly after those meetings, Henson and Zeller announce they're coming back. Barnes has been silent ever since. Does anyone else interpret this as a sign that he's probably more likely to be leaving?

I interpret it as his news was better with regard to the draft. Henson needs to put on lbs but scouts think he has a huge upside- Zeller is effectively maxed out but likely a first rounder. Barnes is intriguing, but folks are not completely sold on a top 3 pick- but that depends on who else declares. He is waiting to see.

[dukelifer]

Scott Van Pelt tweeted earlier (http://www.sbnation.com/ncaa-basketball/2011/4/11/2104903/harrison-barnes-unc-basketball-2011-nba-draft) that he's hearing Barnes will return. Lots of people saying the same.

Bleh.

If true- Roy will have an interesting juggling act- he has had a tough time with big egos. Should make for an entertaining year seeing if they can live up to the huge expectations- much bigger than Duke's were this year.

[yancem]

Perry Jones is returning to Baylor next season. That's now two top five picks - Jones and Sullinger - who have decided to return to school. Baylor should be quite solid next season and this year's NBA draft is looking incredible weak.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6331762

I wonder what Brandon Knight, HB, and Derrick Williams will decide to do...DraftExpress has Knight going #6 now with HB going #4 and Williams going #2.

You have to think that if Williams and Kight both decide to stick around for another year that Barnes moves up to the 2-3rd pick. Right? I'm with Wheat here, the longer Barnes waits, the more information he will have to make the best decision for him. I think that Sullinger and Jones returning makes it more difficult for Barnes to stay but there are a few other people that might go higher than him that haven't made their decisions. The more that come back the better his draft position, the harder his decision becomes.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

It's now being reported that he's returning to UNC, with announcement later this week.

http://isportsweb.com/2011/04/11/barnes-returning/

[RoyalBlue08]

I am shocked that Jones is returning. Some must really think the lockout is going to be long. Or maybe they think the NBA is going to a two and done rule making next year's draft extremely weak. I hope Barnes and all the other kids still deciding come back for another year. Should only help the draft positions of Kyle and Nolan! Anything that helps them out I am all for.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Roy looked like he lost his evaluation skills in regard to recruiting (example Wears and Larry Drew), but his current roster and incoming class looks very good.

If you are referring to talent, I think Roy's evaluation the Wears was just fine. Those two kids are going to be excellent college players. My take is they just got home sick and did not like the team chemistry. Stuff happens.

The evaluation miss seems to have been Drew, and not so much on skills and ability, but mental toughness and character, which has to be a gamble for any coach with any player while recruiting HS sophs and Jr's they really can't possibly know in such a short time.

It's easy for us in hindsight to pin an evaluation mistake on Roy for Drew, but who would have thought a son of a respected NBA coach would have acted as he did? And ultimately have the negative effect on team chemistry that he did?

'09-'10 was just a perfect storm of pain for UNC. We accept that and have moved on...at least most of us.

As a UNC fan, I am certainly happy with the overall quality of players Roy has recruited, and how those players play hard for him. (Again, forget '09-'10).

[kong123]

Its funny, when things are starting to look up again, UNC fans come out of the shadows.

[moonpie23]

Its funny, when things are starting to look up again, UNC fans come out of the shadows.


+1 for kong.......he gutted it out when unc had that disaster season ending with the NIT loss and finishing sixty-something.........


i don't remember him liking it....but he was sticking by his team thru thick and thin.....

[Wheat/"/"/"]

If true- Roy will have an interesting juggling act- he has had a tough time with big egos. Should make for an entertaining year seeing if they can live up to the huge expectations- much bigger than Duke's were this year.

Who has he had a tough time with?

And I doubt expectations can possibly be any higher than Duke's pre-Kyrie injury were.

I actually think Roy does very well with "big ego" players, and we know all big time competitors at the highest level of college basketball have big egos.
He gets many HS AA types and finds ways to play them all, and keeps them happy with their role and PT.

Should HB return, expectations will be to win it all, and even if he leaves, next years team will still be in the hunt to win it all. High expectations worked out in '08-'09, I see no reason high expectations can't be met in '11-'12. All the parts to the puzzle will be there either way.

BTW, here's a recent story I saw on James McAdoo (http://hamptonroads.com/2011/04/young-norfolk-athlete-good-will-ambassador)that seems to point to another player with big time skills, and a grounded ego, that should fit right in as a freshman back up...if it comes to that.

[moonpie23]

W next years team will still be in the hunt to win it all.

i have a tarhole "acquaintance" that says the same thing. He dropped this on me about 5 years ago saying, "well, unc will ALWAYS be up there at the end with a chance to win the national title..."


but, let's be realistic......you can SAY you'll be "in the hunt" until, well.....until you're NOT in the hunt. (NIT)

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Its funny, when things are starting to look up again, UNC fans come out of the shadows.

If you guys are referring to me with the snarky comments, you might want to think again. I've been an unwavering UNC fan on this board since '97.

I have a life. I generally don't participate in the negative stuff on the board, like we saw all of last year regarding UNC's season here, while some of you guys seem to enjoy it.

So yea, maybe I have been in the shadows waiting for the light of some intelligent, rational and cordial conversation.

Then again, maybe I've just been busy?

Moving on....

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

Perry Jones is returning to Baylor next season. That's now two top five picks - Jones and Sullinger - who have decided to return to school. Baylor should be quite solid next season and this year's NBA draft is looking incredible weak.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6331762

I wonder what Brandon Knight, HB, and Derrick Williams will decide to do...DraftExpress has Knight going #6 now with HB going #4 and Williams going #2.

Wow...I am stunned that Jones is returning. I had made a lot of assumptions about Baylor which this totally contradicts. You know what they say about assuming...:p

This year seems like the largest group of returning top talent that I can remember.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

This year seems like the largest group of returning top talent that I can remember.


It has been surprising, and a head scratcher as to why.

One thing obviously is the lockout threat, but I wonder how much international talent is out there that we are really not hearing about that will take some 1st round picks?

[airowe]

It has been surprising, and a head scratcher as to why.

One thing obviously is the lockout threat, but I wonder how much international talent is out there that we are really not hearing about that will take some 1st round picks?

What's up Wheat! Haven't seen you around these parts in a while...

Hope you're doing well. Still waiting on that Fandango gift certificate. :p

[gwlaw99]

It has been surprising, and a head scratcher as to why.

One thing obviously is the lockout threat, but I wonder how much international talent is out there that we are really not hearing about that will take some 1st round picks?

Is it remotely possible that Kyrie changes his mind?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Wow...forgot all about whatever it was about, but do remember a bet now for some movie tix, remind me what it was, and what I owe you and send me a PM where to send them.

Sorry for forgetting..it's been a crazy past year.

[dukelifer]

Who has he had a tough time with?

And I doubt expectations can possibly be any higher than Duke's pre-Kyrie injury were.

I actually think Roy does very well with "big ego" players, and we know all big time competitors at the highest level of college basketball have big egos.
He gets many HS AA types and finds ways to play them all, and keeps them happy with their role and PT.

Should HB return, expectations will be to win it all, and even if he leaves, next years team will still be in the hunt to win it all. High expectations worked out in '08-'09, I see no reason high expectations can't be met in '11-'12. All the parts to the puzzle will be there either way.

BTW, here's a recent story I saw on James McAdoo (http://hamptonroads.com/2011/04/young-norfolk-athlete-good-will-ambassador)that seems to point to another player with big time skills, and a grounded ego, that should fit right in as a freshman back up...if it comes to that.

I think expectations are higher than Duke as they effectively have everyone back from this year's team and add McAdoo and Hairston to go with 6 other McDonald AA's. Not sure Roy has kept everyone happy - three AA's have left recently- but such is life- lose three AAs and get three more to replace them. As for being in the hunt- aren't they usually? One off season and folks want to make it seem like UNC is coming off a dark period.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Is it remotely possible that Kyrie changes his mind?


He's probably the #1 pick, so unlikely. How can he do better?

And didn't he hire an agent already, making him ineligible to return?

If he hasn't hired an agent, and only announced a plan to hire one, I guess anything is possible.

[airowe]

Is it remotely possible that Kyrie changes his mind?

Kyrie's not coming back.

Wheat, don't worry about it. Just giving you a hard time. We bet that Duke would sweep UNC in 2010 (Well, I did -- you took the opposite).

Not a worry, just glad to have you back around these parts...

[shoutingncu]

We bet that Duke would sweep UNC in 2010 (Well, I did -- you took the opposite)...

And as silly as that looks in retrospect, wasn't the original bet even more ludicrous?

[airowe]

And as silly as that looks in retrospect, wasn't the original bet even more ludicrous?

Evidently not. ;)

[LSanders]

Wow...I am stunned that Jones is returning. I had made a lot of assumptions about Baylor which this totally contradicts. You know what they say about assuming...:p

This year seems like the largest group of returning top talent that I can remember.


Spelled ... L-O-C-K-O-U-T

Personally, I don't understand why any kid would come out this year. So, you're drafted 1-2-3. So what? You may not get to play or get paid for a year (except potential endorsements). I'd rather come back to the infrastructure of a university with the coaches, team, trainers, and, if necessary, medical personnel than to hire a trainer and play pick-up games for a year.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Kong bringing some serious TRUTH!

Not really, but why let some facts get in the way?

All one would need to do is look back and see that I stopped in before the first Duke/UNC game in the pre-game thread...and then took the time to stand up and post in the post game thread after the Heels got spanked in the second half.

To suggest by kong that I am a fairweather fan, or bandwagon fan, is ignorant and was only an attempt to bring something negative to the board, which he was sucessful at doing, again. It's unfortunate.

Back on topic....the SportingNews (http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/feed/2011-03/2011-nba-draft/story/whos-no-1-kyrie-irving-harrison-barnes-derrick-williams-all-have-argument-to-be-) is tossing out that HB could possibly go #1.

[devildeac]

Not really, but why let some facts get in the way?

All one would need to do is look back and see that I stopped in before the first Duke/UNC game in the pre-game thread...and then took the time to stand up and post in the post game thread after the Heels got spanked in the second half.

To suggest by kong that I am a fairweather fan, or bandwagon fan, is ignorant and was only an attempt to bring something negative to the board, which he was sucessful at doing, again. It's unfortunate.

Back on topic....the SportingNews (http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/feed/2011-03/2011-nba-draft/story/whos-no-1-kyrie-irving-harrison-barnes-derrick-williams-all-have-argument-to-be-) is tossing out that HB could possibly go #1.

Heck, yea. Barnes as #1. I like that debate/discussion. Go for it! Far cry from the #3-11 that ol roy was "advising.":rolleyes:;)

[DukeGirl4ever]

Back on topic....the SportingNews (http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/feed/2011-03/2011-nba-draft/story/whos-no-1-kyrie-irving-harrison-barnes-derrick-williams-all-have-argument-to-be-) is tossing out that HB could possibly go #1.

How quickly things have changed...wonder what Roy is selling Prince Harry this week?
Didn't he just tell Barnes that he was somewhere from 5-11? Now he's possibly a #1?

I agree with other posters who said Harrison would be wise to wait until the last minute to see what names enter the draft. However, unlike Kyrie, I won't be disappointed to see him go.

[DukeGirl4ever]

Heck, yea. Barnes as #1. I like that debate/discussion. Go for it! Far cry from the #3-11 that ol roy was "advising.":rolleyes:;)

You beat me to it! And I am still amazed that when Roy feeds the Tar Heels those kind of lines that the UNC fans buy in to it, but when Coach K does it, it's because he only cares about himself and his program.

[UrinalCake]

I don't think this has been mentioned but in "news that should surprise no one," Kemba Walker is reported to be entering the draft. I'm a little surprised he hasn't gotten more consideration for the top pick, considering he did about everything you can do in college. He should be the most ready to contribute right away of anyone.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I don't think this has been mentioned but in "news that should surprise no one," Kemba Walker is reported to be entering the draft. I'm a little surprised he hasn't gotten more consideration for the top pick, considering he did about everything you can do in college. He should be the most ready to contribute right away of anyone.

It's the NBA. They always drafted on potential. If it was NBA-readiness / previous accomplishments, Duke players would be lottery picks every time. Unfortunately, Singler and Smith are looking like mid-to-late 1st round picks.

[UrinalCake]

It's the NBA. They always drafted on potential.

I agree that that is most often the case, but there are exceptions. Sometimes a team got burned by going for a prospect the previous year and wants more of a sure thing. Sometimes a team fears its fan base is slipping and needs to win right away. I sort of felt like Evan Turner was the "safe pick" last year over other guys who had higher ceilings. Plus Walker is still a junior so it's not like he's peaked. Not saying that guarantees he will be the #1 pick, but his NBA-readiness should be a factor when comparing to guys like, say, Kanter, or even Irving.

[flyingdutchdevil]

I agree that that is most often the case, but there are exceptions. Sometimes a team got burned by going for a prospect the previous year and wants more of a sure thing. Sometimes a team fears its fan base is slipping and needs to win right away. I sort of felt like Evan Turner was the "safe pick" last year over other guys who had higher ceilings. Plus Walker is still a junior so it's not like he's peaked. Not saying that guarantees he will be the #1 pick, but his NBA-readiness should be a factor when comparing to guys like, say, Kanter, or even Irving.

The problem with the NBA draft is that GMs frequently take the guy with potential because that is the best way for them to keep his job. If a GM chooses a safe player when a raw player that has extreme potential is drafted and that player ends up being an All-Star, the GM gets shafted.

Of course, this can easily backfire like Kevin Pritchard, who smartly drafted Oden over Durant (there was a consensus that Oden had more potential on draft day but clearly the media was wrong on that one), and subsequently got fired a few years later.

That said, I agree with you. I hope Walker is a lottery pick. I really don't like UCon, but Walker has been one of my favorite players this year. He's got a great personality and even greater game.

[Kedsy]

I don't think this has been mentioned but in "news that should surprise no one," Kemba Walker is reported to be entering the draft. I'm a little surprised he hasn't gotten more consideration for the top pick, considering he did about everything you can do in college. He should be the most ready to contribute right away of anyone.


It's the NBA. They always drafted on potential.

The NBA also drafts on size vs. position. There is no way a 6'1" shooting guard would be considered with the top pick. He will be guarded by 6'5"/6'6" guys who are just as quick as he is and may find it difficult to shoot over them. More importantly, assuming his NBA team has a real PG, who would Kemba defend?

This, by the way, is probably why Nolan and Kyle are not getting a lot of mid-first round love as well. Nolan at 6'2", while a little bigger than Kemba, is still not big enough to play SG on most NBA teams, and my guess is Kyle's shooting woes this season have made the NBA guys stop thinking of him as a perfect NBA 3, and he is too small to be an effective 4 in the League.

[moonpie23]

YES !!!! HWNSNBM IS DEFINITELY THE NUMBER ONE PICK......he's soooooooooo awesome....yeah, he's definitely the best player in the draft...

he should be #1 in ALL the mock drafts...he's got the skills, move, moxie, brains.. His basketball IQ is like.....uhh.... Rebecca Black-like AWESOME!!!

yea, that's the ticket.....take HIM @#1.......

he should go...

[Wheat/"/"/"]

Media reports I saw said Roy told HB that there was the "possibility" he could go between 5-11. But the truth is no-one really knows what Roy told HB, it's all speculation.

At the time that came out, I could easily have seen HB going between 5 and 11 myself.

[moonpie23]

Media reports I saw said Roy told HB that there was the "possibility" he could go between 5-11. But the truth is no-one really knows what Roy told HB, it's all speculation.

At the time that came out, I could easily have seen HB going between 5 and 11 myself.

whoooaa.....hang on wheat....."at the time that came out" you could have seen him going between 5 and 11, but now, with no more information, you have no trouble seeing him go @#1? really?

do you think roy told him that he possibly COULD go # 1?

[oldnavy]

You beat me to it! And I am still amazed that when Roy feeds the Tar Heels those kind of lines that the UNC fans buy in to it, but when Coach K does it, it's because he only cares about himself and his program.

It is a little amusing. I am finding the more I speak with what I would call the more rabid UNC fans (IC types) the less knowledgeable they are and the more irrational they are.

Some think that HB's LAME nickname THEEE BLACKKKK FALLLCOOONNNNNN is from a comic book hero he liked as a kid???? I guess they created that myth to make it seem less lame than it is, but the fact is there is no Black Falcon comic book hero, and he got the name from ESPN. Yet these same defenders of the BLAAAACKKKK FALLCCCOOONNNN would openly deride JJ for writing poetry….

When a legit top 5 prospect stays at UNC and skips the draft it is because he "loves the college experience" or he "really wants to win a title for UNC" blah, blah, blah.... but when a Duke player of the same caliber stays, it is because K lied to him or some other crazy excuse...

The hypocrisy amazes me, why can’t you just not like the other program for being your primary rival? Why make up nonsense? Last year I had a lot of fun deriding Roy, but that was based on public behavior and statements, not rumored junk, like the idea that K told Wm Avery that he was “messing” up his program by leaving early. A total falsehood that has been disproven, yet the UNC faithful quote it like fact.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

whoooaa.....hang on wheat....."at the time that came out" you could have seen him going between 5 and 11, but now, with no more information, you have no trouble seeing him go @#1? really?

do you think roy told him that he possibly COULD go # 1?

First, I didn't say anything about HB being a #1 pick, I just linked to a SportingNews article.

Since that 5-11 conversation supposedly took place...a lot has changed. There is more info out there.

My opinion is that he is a very good, well rounded player, but I'm not sure he's a "difference maker" at the pro level and worthy of the gamble of a top pick. Those picks are usually reserved for playes that can carry teams or have tremendous upside.

Personally, if I were a GM and I was looking out for my team for the next 10 years, I'd have gambled on Henson developing into a force before taking the safe pick in a steady Barnes.

And sure, I think Roy has told him he might go #1 if that's what he is being told. There is no benefit for Roy to lie to a player, dispite what some fans think.

[superdave]

With Sullinger and Perry back to college, that pretty much guarantees Barnes to be a top 4 pick if not a little higher, right? This is a weak draft and Barnes has been top 5 all along with Irving, Perry, Sully, Kanter. At this point he's 1 through 4 depending on team need in my mind. I really dont see him slipping unless he has a Stepbrothers level interview.

[rotogod00]

From Telep's just completed chat:

Q: Any idea when we may hear anything from Barnes? Also are there any recruits in 2011 you think of as highly as you thought of Barnes?

Telep: "... Harrison Barnes is legitimately torn. I think his "legacy" is a big concern to him and he knows UNC would have a title run should he stay. Factor in the lockout and the decision is complicated. I think he goes 1-5 in the draft so its hard to pass that up but he's a young man with extraordinary long term vision."

[gwlaw99]

NBA summer league was just cancelled in preparation for lock out.
http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2011/4/13/2108237/nba-lockout-2011-summer-league

[cbnaylor]

Chris Singleton just announced that he will be entering the NBA Draft.

Source: http://www.ustream.tv/channel/teamsingleton

[mr shadow 008]

Derrick Williams is entering the draft and will hire an agent. Sorry cannot post link as I am on my phone at work, but the article is on the front page if espn.com.

[JasonEvans]

Derrick Williams is entering the draft and will hire an agent. Sorry cannot post link as I am on my phone at work, but the article is on the front page if espn.com.

Linky linky. (http://www.arizonawildcats.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/041311aad.html) Many Mock Drafts have Williams as the #1 pick.

Also worth noting-- Louisville's Terrence Jennings is testing the waters (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20110413/SPORTS02/304130129/-1/videonetwork/Louisville-basketball-s-Terrence-Jennings-test-NBA-Draft?odyssey=nav|head). Same with Tu Holloway of Xavier (http://www.foxsportsohio.com/04/14/11/Holloway-to-test-draft-Lottery-order-set/fso_infohose_landing.html?blockID=503872&feedID=3725). If they are smart they will both decide to come back to school as they appear to be maybe 2nd rounders. But, smart and NBA Draft decisions seem to rarely go hand-in-hand.

Also, Calipari says he is encouraging (http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20110413/SPORTS03/304130113/-1/rsslink?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter)Knight, TJones, and Liggins to test the draft but he says they may all decide to pull out because of uncertainty about the lockout. I hate that slimedog, but if he ever manages to keep his one-and-done studs for more than a year he is going to have a very impressive team.

-Jason "I am now hearing analysts talk about the lockout lasting until 2012" Evans

[-jk]

Kansas' Josh Selby has declared (http://m.apnews.com/ap/db_8574/contentdetail.htm?contentguid=YhP7dziU). With the Morris twins, they're losing a lot.

-jk

[-bdbd]

More on Derrick Williams:

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/basketball/ncaa/04/13/williams.nba.draft.ap/index.html?eref=sihp

Well, here's another kid that Duke BB made rich... Unfortunately, in thiscase, not b/c he was one of ours! :(

Amazing to think of the incredible journey this kid has taken over the last two years. From almost-entirely-ignored recruit, not in the top-100 in his HS class, to potential #1 draft pick less than 24 months later. Wow!!! That'll give hope to a lot of "borderline Major/Mid-Major" recuits out there.

I hope he packs some warm clothing though, b/c the transition from SoCal and AZ to Minnesota, or Cleveland, or Toronto.... well, it ain't gonna be fun! :rolleyes:

[DukeGirl4ever]

I didn't know where to put this, so I will put it here.
I just looked at one of the Mock Drafts yesterday (can't remember which one), and it had Kyle going to the Bulls.

I don't normally watch NBA in the regular season b/c it's too long, but I personally would like to see him play with the Bulls. Watching them now, I know Korver is a shooter, but I'd take Kyle any day over him.

[darjum]

I didn't know where to put this, so I will put it here.
I just looked at one of the Mock Drafts yesterday (can't remember which one), and it had Kyle going to the Bulls.

I don't normally watch NBA in the regular season b/c it's too long, but I personally would like to see him play with the Bulls. Watching them now, I know Korver is a shooter, but I'd take Kyle any day over him.

The benefit for Kyle (albeit not financially) is that with him being drafted later in the first round (rather than in the lottery) he will end up on a quality team (I personally could see him on the Spurs). Then he will get a chance to learn from quality veteran players and a great coaching staff. Either way, wherever he goes they will be getting a great player who can contribute in some way from the minute he gets there.

[JohnGalt]

It has been surprising, and a head scratcher as to why.

One thing obviously is the lockout threat, but I wonder how much international talent is out there that we are really not hearing about that will take some 1st round picks?

Here's a link with some info on the internationals looking for a spot in the draft. It's from the Bleacher Report so take it for what it's worth, but it has some interesting information on several very-difficult-to-pronounce names. Most notably, the top two players the gentleman lists have wingspans of 7'6 and 7'7, respectively. He also has Enes as #3 (of 6 total) in his power rankings...hmmm

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/669111-nba-draft-2011-power-ranking-enes-kanter-and-the-six-best-european-prospects/page/2

[CDu]

I didn't know where to put this, so I will put it here.
I just looked at one of the Mock Drafts yesterday (can't remember which one), and it had Kyle going to the Bulls.

I don't normally watch NBA in the regular season b/c it's too long, but I personally would like to see him play with the Bulls. Watching them now, I know Korver is a shooter, but I'd take Kyle any day over him.

Singler is perhaps a better all-around player than Korver (it's hard to compare where Singler is now to Korver now). But Korver gets on the court specifically because he's one of the best shooters in the NBA. He fills a very specific need for the Bulls (who don't have a lot of great perimeter shooters). So unless Singler really improves his perimeter shot, I don't think he'd play over Korver on the Bulls. And he definitely wouldn't play over Deng.

[DukeGirl4ever]

Singler is perhaps a better all-around player than Korver (it's hard to compare where Singler is now to Korver now). But Korver gets on the court specifically because he's one of the best shooters in the NBA. He fills a very specific need for the Bulls (who don't have a lot of great perimeter shooters). So unless Singler really improves his perimeter shot, I don't think he'd play over Korver on the Bulls. And he definitely wouldn't play over Deng.


I definitely agree with this assessment. Korver makes key shots, but Kyle will be a better overall player after he gets more experience....I hope. But you are right, Korver gets PT because of his ability to make shots. I will say that Kyle also has the potential to be a lights out shooter. I have seen flashes of it, but unfortunately, I think he played much of last year and perhaps this year with an injured wrist.

I guess I selfishly want to see him play for the Bulls. I was a big fan of Pippen and Rodman, and I just can't get in to NBA ball anymore. This Bulls team is refreshing to watch, and I actually like Noah and Rose. It's an added bonus to have such great former Dukies on the team as well, and I may eventually "find love" for an NBA team again.

[CDu]

I definitely agree with this assessment. Korver makes key shots, but Kyle will be a better overall player after he gets more experience....I hope. But you are right, Korver gets PT because of his ability to make shots. I will say that Kyle also has the potential to be a lights out shooter. I have seen flashes of it, but unfortunately, I think he played much of last year and perhaps this year with an injured wrist.

I guess I selfishly want to see him play for the Bulls. I was a big fan of Pippen and Rodman, and I just can't get in to NBA ball anymore. This Bulls team is refreshing to watch, and I actually like Noah and Rose. It's an added bonus to have such great former Dukies on the team as well, and I may eventually "find love" for an NBA team again.

Yeah, as a Bulls fan, I'd selfishly love to see as many Duke players on the team (provided they make the team better, of course) as possible. So I'd love to add Singler. From his perspective, it probably isn't the best fit - unless he can establish himself at the SG spot as an upgrade over Brewer or Bogans (i.e., good enough defensively and more capable offensively). Realistically though, I think Singler's best shot would come from another team.

Nolan Smith, on the other hand, could possibly fill a nice role as Rose's backup (replacing Watson).

[hedevil]

As a bulls fan, I am really hoping that the Bulls opt for either Kyle or Nolan. I don't see either one as a starter in the near future (if ever), however either one would be a nice pick up to come off the bench. In certain game match ups it would be nice to have a Nolan Smith to take up certain defensive assignments to allow Rose to play off of the ball defensively. The Bulls seem to like Duke players, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the draft.

[sagegrouse]

As a bulls fan, I am really hoping that the Bulls opt for either Kyle or Nolan. I don't see either one as a starter in the near future (if ever), however either one would be a nice pick up to come off the bench. In certain game match ups it would be nice to have a Nolan Smith to take up certain defensive assignments to allow Rose to play off of the ball defensively. The Bulls seem to like Duke players, so I'm keeping my fingers crossed for the draft.

We'll see. Kyle will be a valuable player from the minute he steps on the court IMHO (where the H is typically silent). His knowledge of the game, his effort, determination, and decent athleticism will determine that. Question is, what's his position?

Nolan can get into the lane, and we'll see if he can get to the hoop and finish. His floaters and teardrops are designed for the NBA. He'll get a chance to be a PG, which will require better court vision and passing, but I like his chances as a starter in the NBA.

sagegrouse

[Newton_14]

We'll see. Kyle will be a valuable player from the minute he steps on the court IMHO (where the H is typically silent). His knowledge of the game, his effort, determination, and decent athleticism will determine that. Question is, what's his position?

Nolan can get into the lane, and we'll see if he can get to the hoop and finish. His floaters and teardrops are designed for the NBA. He'll get a chance to be a PG, which will require better court vision and passing, but I like his chances as a starter in the NBA.

sagegrouse

I agree on both counts. Regarding Nolan, I thinked his court vision and passing improved dramatically from his Junior to Senior year, but most folks missed it because his scoring increased at the same time. He averaged more assists than Kyrie actually. In THE ACC Championship game he had 10 assists to go with his 20 points.

I feel he can improve even more, but I honestly feel he made really good strides in those 2 area's this year and just did not get the credit due. When a player has a flaw in an intangible area such as court vision, it is hard to lose the stigma. Though we can look to increased assists as a measure, court vision is more than that. Seeing the floor and making the right pass at the right time does not always lead to an assist for the player, so a player has to really work hard to overcome that type of stigma.

My overall point I guess, is I like Nolan's chances as a NBA PG. He will defend the position like a beast, and will excel off of high ball screens where he either looks to finish or dish to a finisher. He has also worked himself into a really good ball-handler with a wicked crossover.

I fully believe Nolan ends up being a starting PG in the NBA. May take a year or two, but he will get there. The Bobcat's could certainly use him.

My two cents..

[DukeGirl4ever]

Three CATS are gone....Liggins, Jones, and Knight.

http://www.ukathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/042011aaa.html

[sagegrouse]

Three CATS are gone....Liggins, Jones, and Knight.

http://www.ukathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/042011aaa.html

Interesting. But did you notice the following item?


He [Liggins] was named to the Lefty Driesell Defensive All-America Team and was also named the Southeastern Conference Defensive Player of the Year by Yahoo! Sports, as well as being named to the SEC AllI'm a real wanker for saying this.-Defensive Team by the league’s coaches.


The "Lefty Driesell Defensive All-American Team?" You mean, named for the same guy that joked that he wanted a ten-second shot clock 'cuz his guys loved to run and shoot? Wow!

sagegrouse

[CDu]

Three CATS are gone....Liggins, Jones, and Knight.

http://www.ukathletics.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/042011aaa.html

That's good news for UNC (and everyone else). Definitely a blow to UK, although it's nice to have a great recruiting class to fall back on.

[MarkD83]

That's good news for UNC (and everyone else). Definitely a blow to UK, although it's nice to have a great recruiting class to fall back on.

I am buring this comment in this thread so that it gets less attention, but maybe we should starta thread about how UNC is a lock to go undefeated so that the pressure of expectations gets cranked up for the Tar Heels.

[CDu]

I am buring this comment in this thread so that it gets less attention, but maybe we should starta thread about how UNC is a lock to go undefeated so that the pressure of expectations gets cranked up for the Tar Heels.

Sorry if my post came across wrong. I was thinking about it in terms of UNC's preseason ranking (which will almost certainly now be #1) and everyone (from the perspective of weakening UK's title hopes). UNC still will be the preseason favorite now, but they're still far less likely than the field to win the title. And I certainly don't expect an undefeated season from them.

[MarkD83]

Sorry if my post came across wrong. I was thinking about it in terms of UNC's preseason ranking (which will almost certainly now be #1) and everyone (from the perspective of weakening UK's title hopes). UNC still will be the preseason favorite now, but they're still far less likely than the field to win the title. And I certainly don't expect an undefeated season from them.

CDu. You don't need to apologize for your post. I actually saw it as an opportunity. This past year was a very difficult year for me to enjoy Duke basketball because of the high expectations. Duke was expected to win every game, go undefeated and waltz to the NCAA championship so any minor problem with the team was cause for major meltdowns on DBR. So now is the time to see if we can make 2011-12 uncomfortable for UNC and its fans. So...here is a quote from me that we can use.

"UNC is so loaded with talent that I expect they will be the first team since Indiana to go undefeated. They are so good that I hope Duke stays within 20 of them when they play Duke at Cameron. I have no hope of Duke even making a game of it in Chapel Hill. As far as the NCAA's go, UNC should win every game by at least 10 which would be the first time that happened since Duke in 2001."

[1 24 90]

CDu. You don't need to apologize for your post. I actually saw it as an opportunity. This past year was a very difficult year for me to enjoy Duke basketball because of the high expectations. Duke was expected to win every game, go undefeated and waltz to the NCAA championship so any minor problem with the team was cause for major meltdowns on DBR. So now is the time to see if we can make 2011-12 uncomfortable for UNC and its fans. So...here is a quote from me that we can use.

"UNC is so loaded with talent that I expect they will be the first team since Indiana to go undefeated. They are so good that I hope Duke stays within 20 of them when they play Duke at Cameron. I have no hope of Duke even making a game of it in Chapel Hill. As far as the NCAA's go, UNC should win every game by at least 10 which would be the first time that happened since Duke in 2001."

Much as it pains me to say it, UNC won all of their tourney games in 2009 by at least 12 points.

[MarkD83]

Much as it pains me to say it, UNC won all of their tourney games in 2009 by at least 12 points.

Oh well. I did graduate in 1983 so that means I am old and have a selective memory.

[moonpie23]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011/news/story?id=6395107


mods please merge if you think it's just a KI post...

[oldnavy]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011/news/story?id=6395107


mods please merge if you think it's just a KI post...

Would this be the second greatest thing to happen to Kentucky basketball??

[CLW]

Would this be the second greatest thing to happen to Kentucky basketball??

No greatest b/c it was the 2nd year in a row they pulled off this "feat"

[KenTankerous]

As a Kentucky taxpayer, I think one-and-dones ought to pay the university for their scholarship benefits. Then again, how much would one semester of 12 credit hours really do for the state coffers?

[gumbomoop]

The ESPN article makes clear that these guys are "testing the waters," as none will sign with an agent. The key word in the first paragraph of the article is "maybe." As in "They're gone. Maybe."

Knight refers to putting his game "on display in front of NBA scouts," and Liggins says he's going to have his "game evaluated by pro scouts."

Maybe one or more of the 3 will leave. Maybe one or more will stay.

Maybe Jordan Williams is gone. Maybe Reggie Johnson is gone. Or maybe, as Olympic Fan has suggested a couple of times on the ACC-next-year thread, some guys will come to their senses.

[darjum]

I live in Australia and we are subjected to a lot of SEC games on ESPN & ESPN 2. Hence I found myself watching a lot of UK games (always makes me cringe when they cut to Calapari). I could never figure out how I actually felt about Terrence Jones. No doubt he was an athlete, but I couldn't tell how much skill he actually had? Personally I don't see him has a 'star'. but maybe a solid rotation player. His jump shot looks awful, not always a reflection of your ability to shoot, but I never felt he was a fluid player. Regardless, he has the physical tools to play the game at the NBA level (so did Julian Wright coming out of Kansas a few years ago and he blows).

I do however feel Brandon Knight will be a quality NBA player. Much in the way Raymond Felton is a very solid NBA player, but not a star. To me Kyrie has true star potential (Chris Paul comes to mind), whilst Knight I feel will always be dependable but never at that level.

[JohnGalt]

...says he's "going all in." He didn't directly say it, but presumably "going all in" entails hiring an agent.

Draft Express has him in the late lottery. Anyone seen him play?

http://www.cubuffs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205140897&DB_OEM_ID=60 (http://www.cubuffs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205140897&DB_OEM_ID=600)0

[cbnaylor]

Add another one. Reports are saying that Tristan Thompson is declaring for the NBA Draft and will hire an agent.

Source:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/Texas-Longhorns-forward-Tristan-Thompson-to-enter-NBA-draft-042111

[crimsonandblue]

...says he's "going all in." He didn't directly say it, but presumably "going all in" entails hiring an agent.

Draft Express has him in the late lottery. Anyone seen him play?

http://www.cubuffs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205140897&DB_OEM_ID=60 (http://www.cubuffs.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_LANG=C&ATCLID=205140897&DB_OEM_ID=600)0

Burks is a really well-rounded NBA two. Doesn't do anything ridiculously well, but does everything well. Good, not great athlete. More a scorer than a shooter. Seems like a really nice, smart kid.

[BD80]

As a Kentucky taxpayer, I think one-and-dones ought to pay the university for their scholarship benefits. ...

Why? They didn't take up any space in class.

[theAlaskanBear]

I agree on both counts. Regarding Nolan, I thinked his court vision and passing improved dramatically from his Junior to Senior year, but most folks missed it because his scoring increased at the same time. He averaged more assists than Kyrie actually. In THE ACC Championship game he had 10 assists to go with his 20 points.

I feel he can improve even more, but I honestly feel he made really good strides in those 2 area's this year and just did not get the credit due. When a player has a flaw in an intangible area such as court vision, it is hard to lose the stigma. Though we can look to increased assists as a measure, court vision is more than that. Seeing the floor and making the right pass at the right time does not always lead to an assist for the player, so a player has to really work hard to overcome that type of stigma.

My overall point I guess, is I like Nolan's chances as a NBA PG. He will defend the position like a beast, and will excel off of high ball screens where he either looks to finish or dish to a finisher. He has also worked himself into a really good ball-handler with a wicked crossover.

I fully believe Nolan ends up being a starting PG in the NBA. May take a year or two, but he will get there. The Bobcat's could certainly use him.

My two cents..

I have to disagree with you. I think Nolan's optimal position in the NBA is as a SG. He did a wonderful job for us last year as a PG, but he doesn't have the natural vision, instinct, or passing to be a starting PG. Nolan was most effective last year when he had an aggressive scoring mentality and he created plays off of that. I think his best chance to be successful is as an undersized SG, but with a reputation as a defender with a great slashing/mid-range game.

Think Jason Terry.

[wilko]

Why? They didn't take up any space in class.

Space class? I didn't know UK had an astronautic training program..

[burns15]

Players at four-year colleges are eligible after completing their junior years, or after their 21st birthdays.

And I agree with you that the one-and-done rule is terrible for college basketball. High schoolers should be allowed to go straight to the NBA if they so choose, but if they do go to college, they need to stay for a minimum of 2 years.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011/news/story?id=6408508

Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, and Jordan Hamilton have all declared for the draft. Hamilton has hired an agent and is done, apparently Thompson is pretty much in to stay as well..... what a change of fortunes for the Longhorns

[darjum]

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011/news/story?id=6408508

Tristan Thompson, Cory Joseph, and Jordan Hamilton have all declared for the draft. Hamilton has hired an agent and is done, apparently Thompson is pretty much in to stay as well..... what a change of fortunes for the Longhorns

Yes, with the addition of Myck Kabongo I felt they were easily the class of the B12 and right up there with UK, UNC and Ohio St for preseason rankings...not anymore.

[darjum]

Some draft sources have Singler going in the second round, are they insane?!

There's no way an intelligent organization doesn't pick him up somewhere in the first round. Crazy talk :confused:

[duke1983]

Tidbit on Nolan and his draft status...

http://blogs.courier-journal.com/rickbozich/2011/04/25/nolan-smith-says-thanks/

"Smith said that with the assistance of the dean of the Duke University Law School, he just finished selecting his agent for the 2011 NBA Draft. He said the early feedback has him getting selected between 17 and 23 in the first round."

[superdave]

Tidbit on Nolan and his draft status...

http://blogs.courier-journal.com/rickbozich/2011/04/25/nolan-smith-says-thanks/

"Smith said that with the assistance of the dean of the Duke University Law School, he just finished selecting his agent for the 2011 NBA Draft. He said the early feedback has him getting selected between 17 and 23 in the first round."

Thanks for sharing. It looks like Nolan really helped himself this year. I hope he makes it onto a perrenial playoff team, preferably OKC or Chicago.

[superdave]

The article on the front page about the NCAA cutting the length of the evaluation period is yet another sign that the NCAA does not care about the kids. If the NCAA wants to help kids out, then spend some of those billions they make in tv contracts to do a 3-day camp where players who are considering declaring early can meet with and work out for NBA teams before the declaration deadline. There is zero downside for eligibility reasons and it would give kids face time with pro representatives so they can make a better informed decision. The NCAA should pay for plane tickets, hotels and meals out of that fat CBS contract.

Also, the fact that the NCAA is maintaining its rigid set of rules in a year with so much labor contract uncertainty is a bad thing for kids like Kyrie and Brandon Knight. There's no real reason why these kids cannot stay in the draft without hiring an agent and come back to college next year. If the NCAA cared and would work with the NBA to make it happen, an NBA team could retain the draft rights to a kid and let them play one year more of college in the event of an NBA work stoppage. I'm sure there's alot to work out to make it happen, but this probable work stoppage is a No Man's Land for these kids.

The more I see the less faith I have in the NCAA. I dont think it is a particularly good organization, and I really dont think they even make a half-hearted attempt to understand the positions these kids are in and how best to serve them. If I were a college kid like Kyrie (Duke allegiances not withstanding) I would not unpack my bags in college if I was a one and done caliber player. The NCAA is not looking out for you, so why let them collect money off your work?

Super "Maybe I'm callous, but the NCAA is rotten through and through" Dave

[superdave]

I give Calipari credit for putting this together (http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/04/john-calipari-kentucky-combine-nba-draft/1). This seems to be a good way for players to be around NBA scouts, GMs etc and get some feedback.

However I do worry about kids from smaller schools who may not have a coach who could set this up, or 3 pro-caliber teammates who will help draw scouts.

The NBA and NCAA should set up a pre-declaration date workout along these lines so kids can get more info earlier and may not even have to go through the declaration process. There's no difference between a workout on Saturday, April 9 and Friday, April 29 except some arbitrary date some suit set up. Earlier would also help kids make decisions faster and would help coaches on the recrutiting trail too.

[zack2014]

I just thought I let everyone know that the feeling on campus (Maryland) is that Jordan Williams is going to stay in the draft. I have several friends in his classes and he hasn't gone to class in about a month.

[BD80]

... Jordan Williams ... hasn't gone to class in about a month.

So he's on track to to make the Dean's list at UK?

[shoutingncu]

Terrence Jones returns (http://gary-parrish.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/29133830) to Kentucky.

[Leck]

ashton gibbs is coming back for pitt. they'll be a force in the big east again.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6502905.

[loldevilz]

Terrence Jones returns (http://gary-parrish.blogs.cbssports.com/mcc/blogs/entry/6271764/29133830) to Kentucky.

Kentucky is going to be insanely good next year. Davis, Jones, Gilchrist, Lamb, and Teague. That might be the most talented starting five in the last decade.

[darjum]

Kentucky is going to be insanely good next year. Davis, Jones, Gilchrist, Lamb, and Teague. That might be the most talented starting five in the last decade.

Yes, a very interesting line up. Lamb and Teague will have to really light it up from beyond the ark in order for UK to be legitimate with all of the Freshmen on board. Defensively they should be very athletic and their pressure should be intense. Davis appears a bit of a Garnett clone.

[roywhite]

Kentucky is going to be insanely good next year. Davis, Jones, Gilchrist, Lamb, and Teague. That might be the most talented starting five in the last decade.

Or is it even the most talented starting five at KY in the last two years?

[NSDukeFan]

Or is it even the most talented starting five at KY in the last two years?

Good question

Fr. Wall vs. Fr. Teague advantage Wall
So. Lamb vs. Fr. Bledsoe advantage talent (Bledsoe?) better that year (Lamb?)
So. Miller? vs. Fr. Gilchrist advantage Gilchrist
Sr. Patterson vs. So. Jones advantage (?)
Fr. Cousins vs. Fr. Jones advantage (?)

Tough call. I don't know which is the most talented and/or best. Patterson as a senior was nice to have on a freshmen dominated team. Having both Lamb and Jones back helps an awful lot though and Wiltjer off the bench could be very solid.

[COYS]

Good question

Fr. Wall vs. Fr. Teague advantage Wall
So. Lamb vs. Fr. Bledsoe advantage talent (Bledsoe?) better that year (Lamb?)
So. Miller? vs. Fr. Gilchrist advantage Gilchrist
Sr. Patterson vs. So. Jones advantage (?)
Fr. Cousins vs. Fr. Jones advantage (?)

Tough call. I don't know which is the most talented and/or best. Patterson as a senior was nice to have on a freshmen dominated team. Having both Lamb and Jones back helps an awful lot though and Wiltjer off the bench could be very solid.

Patterson was actually a junior on that team with Wall, Cousins, etc. I also think that you meant to add a Freshman Davis into the calculations.

[Lord Ash]

I would say that PatPat team was more talented. I am a LITTLE bit "wait and see" on Davis... while I think he is a physical specimen, I am not convinced he will be dominant right away... see Henson, John for what I think may be an equivalent.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

My bet is Nolan makes it into a top 15 pick. His game is going to translate better for the NBA than some people think. He's gonna D people with effort and score on their mistakes. He'll never be an offensive go to guy, but no-one is going to be able to leave him either without him causing pain. He earned my respect over his years at Duke.

That Davis kid impressed with what little I saw of his ball handling during those all star games. He's a long guy. He looked much more comfortable on the open floor dribble than I ever see from Henson, even through last season.
Davis seems destined to be a wing guy. While Henson is heading to be a paint guy...at least to me.
Henson is not going to be facing up much and taking defenders off the dribble. I'd bet Davis does from the start.

I see Davis as a "Durant" type, and Henson as a "Rodman" type player.

[duke09hms]

Guilty thought of the day:

Is it bad that I'm hoping all of UK's stars come back from the draft so we can have another powerhouse team that can keep UNC from winning it all next year?

[NSDukeFan]

Patterson was actually a junior on that team with Wall, Cousins, etc. I also think that you meant to add a Freshman Davis into the calculations.

Yes, you are correct that Patterson was a Jr. and I meant to have freshman Davis vs. Cousins. I think from a pure talent standpoint, this year's UK team is more talented as the difference between Gilchrist and Miller more than makes up for any other match up differences.

[darjum]

Yes, you are correct that Patterson was a Jr. and I meant to have freshman Davis vs. Cousins. I think from a pure talent standpoint, this year's UK team is more talented as the difference between Gilchrist and Miller more than makes up for any other match up differences.

Yes, I agree with you. The UK team of two year ago was a better interior scoring team, but next years UK team will be a better outside shooting and defensive unit, which overall will make them a better overall team. Against WestVir in the E8 two years ago UK couldn't hit a 3 to safe themselves, this years team will not have the same problem.

Having said that, the dynamic between Jones, Davis and Gilchrist will be interesting to watch as I'm sure Cal was not expecting Jones to be back and I'm fairly certain each will want to play BIG minutes. Freshmen and demand for minutes can be an issue if not handled well, maybe an implosion on the way? One can hope.

[moonpie23]

duke, unc, uk.....man....next year is gonna rawk!!!!

[COYS]

Guilty thought of the day:

Is it bad that I'm hoping all of UK's stars come back from the draft so we can have another powerhouse team that can keep UNC from winning it all next year?

I'd rather Duke be the team that keeps UNC from winning the title.

[duke09hms]

I'd rather Duke be the team that keeps UNC from winning the title.

Sure, me too. But in the spirit of ABC, I'd rather there be other strong teams out there that could take them out. Don't want them to be like MD '02 facing an easy IU team or UConn '04 facing an easy GT team in the finals.

I wish Brandon Knight had returned - he could carve up the UNC perimeter D right easy.

[darjum]

Sure, me too. But in the spirit of ABC, I'd rather there be other strong teams out there that could take them out. Don't want them to be like MD '02 facing an easy IU team or UConn '04 facing an easy GT team in the finals.

I wish Brandon Knight had returned - he could carve up the UNC perimeter D right easy.

I'm not sure how you feel, but I actually believe Ohio State maybe better than UK. I know they will miss Jon Diebler and David Lighty, but Craft is a fabulous on the ball defender, Buford and Sullinger are pros and they bring in another strong recruiting class. I would not be surprised to see Ohio State dominate the B10 again this year and be a one seed come tournament time. Therefore here's another team for the ABC.

[gumbomoop]

I'm not sure how you feel, but I actually believe Ohio State maybe better than UK. I know they will miss Jon Diebler and David Lighty, but Craft is a fabulous on the ball defender, Buford and Sullinger are pros and they bring in another strong recruiting class. I would not be surprised to see Ohio State dominate the B10 again this year and be a one seed come tournament time. Therefore here's another team for the ABC.

I'd think tOSU is the logical-on-paper preseason #3, for the reasons darjum states.

Until fairly late last season, I hadn't paid much attention to BigTen ball, but once I saw Aaron Craft play D, I was absolutely startled by how great he was on D. I discovered near season's end that he had - as a frosh, no less - been chosen unanimously as the conf DPOY. Won some other conf recognition, too. Extraordinary court sense, Scheyer-wise [in more ways than one]. D-disruptive, almost Mugsy-wise, if not exactly Mugsy-style.

Even after Duke's exit from the NCAAT, I posted a couple of times encouraging folks, unless totally dispirited, to follow Craft. His D against Knight in the UK game was brilliant, including his perfect positioning on that final shot that Knight hit. [As Battier knows, you can do everything right, but the guy still hits the shot. Next play.....] Which for Craft is next season.

Next to anticipating the great battles next year between Duke and UNC, I look forward to tOSU's tv appearances. Craft is remarkable, every bit as impressive in his strengths as is Sullinger.

[Class of '94]

I'd think tOSU is the logical-on-paper preseason #3, for the reasons darjum states.

Until fairly late last season, I hadn't paid much attention to BigTen ball, but once I saw Aaron Craft play D, I was absolutely startled by how great he was on D. I discovered near season's end that he had - as a frosh, no less - been chosen unanimously as the conf DPOY. Won some other conf recognition, too. Extraordinary court sense, Scheyer-wise [in more ways than one]. D-disruptive, almost Mugsy-wise, if not exactly Mugsy-style.

Even after Duke's exit from the NCAAT, I posted a couple of times encouraging folks, unless totally dispirited, to follow Craft. His D against Knight in the UK game was brilliant, including his perfect positioning on that final shot that Knight hit. [As Battier knows, you can do everything right, but the guy still hits the shot. Next play.....] Which for Craft is next season.

Next to anticipating the great battles next year between Duke and UNC, I look forward to tOSU's tv appearances. Craft is remarkable, every bit as impressive in his strengths as is Sullinger.

Living in SE Michigan now, you hear alot of questionable things about the way Thad Motta and his coaching staff does things in terms of recruiting and during games, so it is hard for me to get behind and root for Ohio State in football or anything else; but saying that, I do agree with you that Craft is a fun player to watch. And both Sullinger and Craft will make OSU a top 5 team next year as well as a NCAA championship contender.

[pfrduke]

Here's the official list (http://www.nbadraft.net/2011-nba-draft-official-early-entrants) of early entrants, which totals 72 collegians. My over/under bets that fewer than half of the early entrants get drafted.

[Kedsy]

That Davis kid impressed with what little I saw of his ball handling during those all star games. He's a long guy. He looked much more comfortable on the open floor dribble than I ever see from Henson, even through last season.
Davis seems destined to be a wing guy. While Henson is heading to be a paint guy...at least to me.
Henson is not going to be facing up much and taking defenders off the dribble. I'd bet Davis does from the start.

My guess is you're probably right, but coming out of high school, I remember the word on Henson being he was an insanely long wing, with great ball skills. My recollection is some were calling him a point-forward. Just shows that high school game doesn't always translate into college game. Or that my memory is faulty. One or the other.

[Kedsy]

Kentucky is going to be insanely good next year. Davis, Jones, Gilchrist, Lamb, and Teague. That might be the most talented starting five in the last decade.

In the last decade? With three freshmen starters? Plus Lamb who was decent but was by no means a star in his one college year.

As a couple of people have pointed out, this isn't that different from 2010 Kentucky. Also, off the top of my head, I'd take the talent on 2001 Duke, 2011 Duke, maybe 2004 Duke, 2005 UNC, 2009 UNC, 2010 Kansas, maybe 2011 Kansas, maybe 2011 Ohio State, 2006 Florida, 2007 Florida, maybe 2008 Memphis, maybe 2004 UConn, and probably half a dozen others, at least.

Kentucky will be good next year. We'll have to see how their freshman actually play before saying how good.

[loldevilz]

In the last decade? With three freshmen starters? Plus Lamb who was decent but was by no means a star in his one college year.

As a couple of people have pointed out, this isn't that different from 2010 Kentucky. Also, off the top of my head, I'd take the talent on 2001 Duke, 2011 Duke, maybe 2004 Duke, 2005 UNC, 2009 UNC, 2010 Kansas, maybe 2011 Kansas, maybe 2011 Ohio State, 2006 Florida, 2007 Florida, maybe 2008 Memphis, maybe 2004 UConn, and probably half a dozen others, at least.

Kentucky will be good next year. We'll have to see how their freshman actually play before saying how good.

I didn't say best I said most talented.

2010 Kentucky had Wall and Cousins and Patterson, but Jones is better than Patterson. Davis is looks to me like one of the best freshman in a long time.

They add to that Gilchrist and Teague who are only the top rated players at their positions. And both were rated #1 in the country at some point.

Who can match that talent?

[Kedsy]

I didn't say best I said most talented.

2010 Kentucky had Wall and Cousins and Patterson, but Jones is better than Patterson. Davis is looks to me like one of the best freshman in a long time.

They add to that Gilchrist and Teague who are only the top rated players at their positions. And both were rated #1 in the country at some point.

Who can match that talent?

Most if not all of the teams I mentioned. Next year's Kentucky team has 5 or 6 NBA draft picks on it. So have a lot of other teams, including many of those I listed.

High school recruiting ranking does not necessarily equate to talent. For example, Terrance Jones was the #11 recruit in the country, according to RSCI. Patrick Patterson was #9, but you say unequivocally that Jones is better. (By the way, if we're talking about talented, rather than best, why all of a sudden do you revert to saying Jones is "better" than Patterson?)

Who is as talented as Gilchrist and Teague? I don't know, but I doubt you do, either. Josh Selby was supposed to be this amazing talent (and #6 recruit), but he was only OK at Kansas this past season. Why are you so sure Teague (also a #6 recruit) is that much more talented than Selby?

[Wheat/"/"/"]

My guess is you're probably right, but coming out of high school, I remember the word on Henson being he was an insanely long wing, with great ball skills. My recollection is some were calling him a point-forward. Just shows that high school game doesn't always translate into college game. Or that my memory is faulty. One or the other.

Yea, Henson was talked about as a wing type, and we know Roy even tried to play him out there before everyone realized it was just not working. (Probably a recruiting promise to give it a try).

Henson is fairly skilled, or maybe I should say not bad, with the dribble for a 6'11" guy, but he's not near enough skilled to play WF, and will unlikely ever be, IMO.

I saw immediately the Davis kid could handle it, and I think he will play on the outside. They have different games, for sure, despite their similar size.

Henson is what we used to call a "Jug Butt" back in the day. He has the caboose that clears space. He needs to embrace his "gift" and use it as a weapon inside, along with that freakish length..if you've ever played against guys like that you know they are a killer to play against.

If I could be his agent and had a say in tuning his body, I'd do everything I could to develop his legs and lower body strength, then a few quick drop step moves and the mid range jumper...but he will get paid to rebound, block shots, rebound, block shots, rebound... so he has to get stronger.

He has the ball handling ability to take a rebound and start the dribble up the floor, start a break, but he'll need to give it up at mid court.

I think Henson is easily a lottery pick after next season.

[gumbomoop]

I saw immediately the Davis kid could handle it, and I think he will play on the outside.

It looks as if UK's bigs are: Davis, Jones, Wiltjer, Vargas. The only purely inside player among that quartet is Vargas, who, unless very much improved, will play only 10-15 mpg. That leaves maybe 65-70 mpg for the 2 inside positions. The other 3 guys will perhaps all be inside-outside guys.

I do agree with you that Davis has a better handle than UK's other 3 bigs, but still, he's so long that he'll spend plenty of time inside. UK has 7-9 guys [depending on what one, esp Coach Cal, thinks of Vargas and Jon Hood] who can play, and some real versatility all over the court.

[Class of '94]

Yea, Henson was talked about as a wing type, and we know Roy even tried to play him out there before everyone realized it was just not working. (Probably a recruiting promise to give it a try).

Henson is fairly skilled, or maybe I should say not bad, with the dribble for a 6'11" guy, but he's not near enough skilled to play WF, and will unlikely ever be, IMO.

I saw immediately the Davis kid could handle it, and I think he will play on the outside. They have different games, for sure, despite their similar size.

Henson is what we used to call a "Jug Butt" back in the day. He has the caboose that clears space. He needs to embrace his "gift" and use it as a weapon inside, along with that freakish length..if you've ever played against guys like that you know they are a killer to play against.

If I could be his agent and had a say in tuning his body, I'd do everything I could to develop his legs and lower body strength, then a few quick drop step moves and the mid range jumper...but he will get paid to rebound, block shots, rebound, block shots, rebound... so he has to get stronger.

He has the ball handling ability to take a rebound and start the dribble up the floor, start a break, but he'll need to give it up at mid court.

I think Henson is easily a lottery pick after next season.

I agree with your assessment of Henson and his role in the NBA; but how can Henson easily be a lottery pick when at best he appears to be a role player at the next level with limiteded offensive capability? I know 7ft centers with limited ability offensively but strong defensively have been drafted in the lottery; but I don't think Henson fits into that category.

[Newton_14]

Yea, Henson was talked about as a wing type, and we know Roy even tried to play him out there before everyone realized it was just not working. (Probably a recruiting promise to give it a try).


Actually it took the Ed Davis injury, and Travis Wear injury, to force Roy to play Henson at the 4, where he belonged to begin with. Until the injuries forced Roy's hand, Henson played exclusively on the wing and was lost. He finally started showing promise when he was moved to the 4. Henson thought he could be a Small Forward, and Roy felt he was too thin to play on the interior. Both were wrong. I could see Henson being a late lottery/top 20 pick if he can keep improving, and develop his offensive skill set

After watching the Davis kid headed to Kentucky, I was very impressed. I think he is going to be a stud on the interior. He has great length and knows how to use it. He also has great instincts and pursue's the ball like a mad man. Has great hands and a soft touch around the basket. Like Henson, his length and quickness will offset the lack of bulk imo. He doesn't quite have the freakish length of Henson, but his offensive skills are much better, and I would attribute much of that to growing up as a guard.

Davis is a very unique case. Not sure I have ever seen a player go from 6'2 to 6'10 that late in his High School years. I can't recall exactly the timing, but I think he starter his Jr year of High School at 6'2? Then sprouts to 6'10 in a year or so. Just bizarre

[darjum]

I agree with your assessment of Henson and his role in the NBA; but how can Henson easily be a lottery pick when at best he appears to be a role player at the next level with limiteded offensive capability? I know 7ft centers with limited ability offensively but strong defensively have been drafted in the lottery; but I don't think Henson fits into that category.

I see him as a frail version of J.Noah of the Bulls. Noah is about 1 inch taller and 20 pounds heavier than Henson right now according to their profiles on ESPN. Both have good motors and rebound well, plus neither is competent offensively outside of dunks and putbacks around the rim. The differences I see is that Henson is a more natural shot blocker but Noah has about 10 times more heart.

[pfrduke]

Looks like Kyrie to the Cavs.... they're #1, Minnesota #2, and Utah #3. Can't see him falling lower than the Jazz (although was hoping Utah had the #1 pick when this was the final 3).

ETA: The Cavs pick that went #1 was the Clippers pick that they traded to Cleveland along with Baron Davis for Mo Williams. Kyrie on the Clippers with Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin would have been so much better than what he's going to end up with on either Cleveland or Minnesota.

[Duvall]

Looks like Kyrie to the Cavs....

Ugh. He deserves better.

[Devilsfan]

Finally Cleveland may soon have a king with class. Make us even prouder of you Kyrie!

[sporthenry]

With the Cavs also having the 4th pick, I don't think its all doom and gloom. Assuming they don't trade the pick for another player, Kyrie will probably be joined by a big, more than likely a foreign born player. They have some pieces like Hickson and they will be miserable for a year or two but that gives them a chance to pick up someone next year.

[ThePublisher]

Clevland is a black hole. Not as bad as the clippers, but still not good. The market is small. I'm disappointed for Kyrie, I was really hoping he would go somewhere better.

Should have stayed at Duke. =)

[NashvilleDevil]

Clevland is a black hole. Not as bad as the clippers, but still not good. The market is small. I'm disappointed for Kyrie, I was really hoping he would go somewhere better.

Should have stayed at Duke. =)

Why? So he could have been picked by Cleveland next year?

[Devilsfan]

Yeah, I'm sure you would give up the money to return to college.

[Newton_14]

Looks like Kyrie to the Cavs.... they're #1, Minnesota #2, and Utah #3. Can't see him falling lower than the Jazz (although was hoping Utah had the #1 pick when this was the final 3).

ETA: The Cavs pick that went #1 was the Clippers pick that they traded to Cleveland along with Baron Davis for Mo Williams. Kyrie on the Clippers with Eric Gordon and Blake Griffin would have been so much better than what he's going to end up with on either Cleveland or Minnesota.

So does Utah take Brandon Knight then, or Kemba? I have to believe that Kyrie and Williams go 1 and 2. Cleveland having the 4th pick makes things interesting as well. It will be interesting to see if the keep the pick and if so who they use it on, or if they trade it. If for some reason reason Minnesota and Utah pass on Williams, Cleveland getting both Kyrie and Williams would be a huge step in the right direction for the Cav's.

[weezie]

Well, the BR report may not be anything to make book on but if Kyle ends up in Chitown....wow, just WOW! What a great fit that would be.
I'd hate to see it through my Detroit glasses (poor Pistons, sigh...) but what a stupendous pickup that would be for him and them.

[78Devil]

I don't follow the bottom half of the NBA well enough to know -- but if you are Kyrie, who among Minnesota, Utah and Cleveland would you have preferred. In other words, how is he (and his agent) likely to look at this vs. the alternatives. Would he rather have joined Love in Minnesota?

[Bluedog]

I don't follow the bottom half of the NBA well enough to know -- but if you are Kyrie, who among Minnesota, Utah and Cleveland would you have preferred. In other words, how is he (and his agent) likely to look at this vs. the alternatives. Would he rather have joined Love in Minnesota?

Yes. Cleveland was the consensus worst place for Kyrie in most people's opinion. They just have too many holes. Not happy about this. Would have liked to see him in Minnesota, Toronto, or Utah. At least the Cavs also have the fourth pick. I could see them picking up Kanter. Unlikely that DWilliams is still available. Still too bad that they Clippers traded their pick. Kyrie with Griffin would have been fun to watch and living in LA is a bit more fun than Cleveland for a 19 year old.

[moonpie23]

beaking news....kyrie irving sentenced in "HE'S AMAZING" case.....

[sporthenry]

I don't follow the bottom half of the NBA well enough to know -- but if you are Kyrie, who among Minnesota, Utah and Cleveland would you have preferred. In other words, how is he (and his agent) likely to look at this vs. the alternatives. Would he rather have joined Love in Minnesota?

Well Minnesota has Rubio in their back pocket and who knows what will happen with that? The Jazz probably have a bit more with Favors (although it remains to be seen what he becomes). But apart from nobody wanting to be in Cleveland, I think they could have a nice team. Lets say they draft Kyrie and either Kanter, Jonas, Jan, or even Bismack Biyombo. Kyrie will have more than enough growing pains and so will the rest of those big men. So lets say they get another top 3-5 pick next year and add someone like Gilchrist or Rivers. Then Jamison comes off the books next year and Baron the year after. So lets give them a starting line up of Irving, Rivers (wishful thinking), Vesely, Hickson, and Varejao. Of course a lot of ifs with Vesely or Rivers but I believe they will add 2 good players on top of Irving. And then it makes Cleveland look like a nice opportunity for a FA to go to.

[heyman25]

Who isn't dealt adversity. Kyrie can't choose his team. He will go to whoever picks him.Cleveland has a very passionate fanbase.If he plays well Cleveland would rally around Kyrie. For me I can wait til June 23 and not try speculating on where Kyrie goes. As a Duke fan I want him to be number 1 in the lottery.

[CDu]

Well, the BR report may not be anything to make book on but if Kyle ends up in Chitown....wow, just WOW! What a great fit that would be.
I'd hate to see it through my Detroit glasses (poor Pistons, sigh...) but what a stupendous pickup that would be for him and them.

Actually, I don't think the Bulls are a good fit for Singler in terms of playing time. They already have a SF (Deng) and they're really committed to him. At the SG spot, they have a better shooter in Korver and a better defender in Brewer. So I don't think Singler would find playing time there. He'd be on a really good team (and as a Bulls fan I'm always happy to see more Duke guys on the team), but I'd hope there are better opportunities out there.

[Starter]

I think I'm in the minority here, but I think Cleveland is a wonderful place for Kyrie to end up. I'm friends with several people from Cleveland, and they're already excited at the possibility of Kyrie playing there. They love their athletes there, and I think getting Kyrie is a good way to move on from the LeBron debacle. They're going to love him and support him unconditionally. (With No. 4, I think it's Kanter if he doesn't go No. 3 to Utah. Otherwise, I think they go with one of the foreign bigs.)

Conversely, the Clippers would have been a horrible place for Kyrie to end up, Blake Griffin or no Blake Griffin. So long as Donald Sterling owns the team -- trust me, or read thi (http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=4187729)s -- I wouldn't wish the Clippers on anyone. I think Blake is ghost the minute he can leave. Say what you will about Dan Gilbert, he's sort of a nut, but he's a good guy and cares about his team. You can't say either about Sterling.

Minnesota is horribly run by Kahn, by the way. I'd prefer Kyrie not play for a guy who insinuated the draft lottery was rigged. And nobody wants to play in Toronto.

[Starter]

Here's Cleveland's roster situation (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm), by the way.

Pretty grim. But it's not the end of the world. Jamison comes off the books after next year, or is a $15 million expiring to use as a trade chip. They're stuck with Baron for two years, but it's not so bad when you consider that acquiring him netted them Kyrie, and he can help take some of the pressure off Kyrie while transitioning to the pros. Hope for Kanter in the draft. Then you build around Kyrie, Kanter, Varejao -- the only guy on the team signed long-term -- maybe Hickson, maybe Sessions. If Utah takes Kanter, and I suspect they will, take whichever international big you like the best and hope.

[Starter]

You know, rethinking this -- and I'm sorry to hijack this thread after everyone went to sleep -- Utah probably isn't taking Kanter. They have all sorts of talent down low. It's really the strength of their team. They probably pick between Brandon Knight and Kemba. (I'd take Knight, the pure point guard)

[pfrduke]

Here's Cleveland's roster situation (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm), by the way.

Pretty grim. But it's not the end of the world. Jamison comes off the books after next year, or is a $15 million expiring to use as a trade chip. They're stuck with Baron for two years, but it's not so bad when you consider that acquiring him netted them Kyrie, and he can help take some of the pressure off Kyrie while transitioning to the pros. Hope for Kanter in the draft. Then you build around Kyrie, Kanter, Varejao -- the only guy on the team signed long-term -- maybe Hickson, maybe Sessions. If Utah takes Kanter, and I suspect they will, take whichever international big you like the best and hope.

Cleveland needs to do what OKC did. This is their third season since leaving Seattle, and already there are only two players left on the team who played for the Sonics - Nick Collison and Kevin Durant. Otherwise, the roster has been completely reinvented through some great drafting - Westbrook, Ibaka, and Harden have all been extremely valuable assets - successful trades for solid role players (acquiring Maynor, Perkins, Sefolosha, and Cook), and very little on the free agent market (Royal Ivey is the only free agent on the playoff roster). They were able to do this through clearing cap space, which allowed them to be flexible when other teams needed to do salary dumps (Maynor, for example, was acquired because Utah needed to get rid of Matt Harpring's contract, and OKC was willing to take it on).

The Cavs are perfectly set up to do this* - the only player on the current roster who will still be under his current contract in Kyrie's third season is Anderson Varejao. Jamison is off the books after next year (and could be a valuable expiring contract to use in a midseason trade), Davis, Gibson, and Sessions two years from now (no one else's contract is worth mentioning). They'll have a decision to make about Hickson, but otherwise, they can rebuild their roster from the ground up. Add Kyrie and maybe Kanter this year. Likely end up with another high lottery pick next year (they'll be terrible again next season). Suddenly you have a young core that, knock on wood, will be high value NBA players, roster flexibility to make strategic acquisitions, and they'll be poised to be a top 5 team in the East for the next several years.

*with the caveat that it's almost a certain guarantee that no one the Cavs draft or otherwise acquire is going to be as good as Kevin Durant.

[Greg_Newton]

Cleveland needs to do what OKC did.

Definitely agree, but OKC's series of personnel moves over the last several years may have been the most brilliant in the history of the league. To build a championship competitor in OKLAHOMA in three years with your four leading scorers under age 23 is just ridiculous. Good luck to Cleveland...

If I were Cleveland, I honestly might just draft Irving, Byongo and Jajuan Johnson (all projected to be available) and hope for a guy like QMiller, Barnes or Gilchrist in the lottery next year (assuming they emerge as elite scorers) along with a Seth Curry-type in the second round. A great PG, a big-time wing scorer, a shooter, and a stable of long, athletic forwards and bigs is the best bet for their kind of franchise, IMO, and that's about as close to the OKC model as you can get with this draft. KI, Baron, Miller, Byongo and Hickson/Varejo with Johnson and a shooter off the bench could be a decent core, especially if you add a FA or two.

I'm just not sure I buy Kanter as a cornerstone for a young, uptempo team... I can see him starring on the Celtics or Spurs, but I'm just not sure he matches the identity Cleveland will have to take on to be successful. An non-sexy small-market franchise like that just isn't ever going to sculpt a core of free agent veterans into a contender.

[ice-9]

Well, the BR report may not be anything to make book on but if Kyle ends up in Chitown....wow, just WOW! What a great fit that would be.
I'd hate to see it through my Detroit glasses (poor Pistons, sigh...) but what a stupendous pickup that would be for him and them.

I think Nolan Smith would make an awesome fit for Chicago! Reasons:

- Nolan would be a great PG for the "Bench Mob" back-up team, who are fierce defensively and limited offensively (especially if Taj is not on fire and Korver denied shots)

- He can also play a bit of SG alongside Derrick Rose and Chicago can always use more perimeter shooters

- Nolan plays D, and the Bulls are all about D

- Nolan will fit the culture there to a T. He's a team oriented player with little to no drama willing to make sacrifices for the greater good -- he'd be a positive force in the locker room

Here's to hoping the Bulls pick both Nolan and Singler.

[darjum]

I know this might be blasphemous and get me removed from DBR altogether, but there is a chance that Kyrie doesn't actually go #1. Before you start writing scathing criticisms to my comment hear me out.

In my opinion there are 4 players who stand out as being potential impact players, similar to 2005 when Bogut, Paul, M.Williams and D.Williams were the top picks. This time it is Irving, Williams, Kanter and Brandon Knight. In order for Irving to not go #1, Cleveland has to be CERTAIN that there is a massive difference between Kyrie and Brandon Knight and they really have to like William's out of Arizona. If we assume (a big assumption) that Minnesota isn't going to pick another PG, especially with Rubio coming over, the Cavs may actually take William's with the first pick, Minny picks Kanter or Valanciunas to team with Love, and then Utah takes Irving at #3, leaving the Cav's to take Knight...that is assuming they feel the difference between Knight and Irving isn't that great, particularly with the recent history of #1 overall picks and injury concerns (I don't care what anybody tells me, teams will be worried about Irving's toe).

Otherwise, the Cavs take Irving, Minny takes Williams or Kanter, Utah takes the remaing player, leaving the Cav's to have to draft Jonas Valanciunas, Tristan Thompson or Bismack Biyombo as they already took Irving #1 and we don't want another Minny draft from 2009. Keep in mind that Utah does have D.Harris, so drafting another PG might not be a priority? Although I'd take Irving or Knight over Harris.

So maybe Irving doesn't end up in Cleveland, but as most websites indicate, and any Duke fan who watched Irving for the first section of the year knows, his talent might be too much to pass up and the Cavs do take him #1. With that in mind, peoples criticism of the Cavs situation is not how I see it. Learning under a rejuvenated B.Davis (if you look at how he played for the Cavs in the final quarter of the season, he played very well) may actually be a good learning environment for Irving and take some of the pressure off. The Cavs will want improvement, but they will want to be in the lottery picking up high picks for a few years so expectations will still be low. The next few drafts have the potential to be loaded and the Cavs may want to put themselves in a position to reload quickly.

It would be great for the Duke program to have a player go #1 overall, but it's not as certain in my eyes as ESPN made it out to be.

[HCheek37]

Yahoo's Adrian Wojnarowski has a nice piece up about Kyrie avoiding the flashy aggressive sales pitch from Lebron's posse and ending up with a lesser known agent with future earnings and charity work as a centerpiece of his pitch.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AvyAvOX6ikUjv7GceLC_1GK8vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_kyrie_irving_lebron_james_cavaliers_da n_gilbert_draft051711

[monkey]

Yahoo's Adrian Wojnarowski has a nice piece up about Kyrie avoiding the flashy aggressive sales pitch from Lebron's posse and ending up with a lesser known agent with future earnings and charity work as a centerpiece of his pitch.

http://sports.yahoo.com/nba/news;_ylt=AvyAvOX6ikUjv7GceLC_1GK8vLYF?slug=aw-wojnarowski_kyrie_irving_lebron_james_cavaliers_da n_gilbert_draft051711

Hmm. I found this quote from the article quite bothersome:

"For parts of Irving’s freshman season at Duke, rival agents believed LeBron’s camp would sign him. “They came very hard for Kyrie,” says an ex-Duke basketball player who spent time on campus this season. “… All over him".

Maybe I'm naive but agents shouldn't be making pitches for our players while they are on campus.

[johnb]

Cavaliers owner Dan Gilbert, called it a "beautiful" night, saying on a conference call: "I knew it was the right move all along. When it was over, someone on stage told me that it was the Clippers' pick and I thought they were messing around. It wasn't until 10-15 minutes later when I actually started to believe it."

I'm always impressed by the lack of correlation between wealth and intelligence.

[UrinalCake]

The Hornets were pretty much a black hole until Chris Paul got there. If Irving proves to be as good as expected, plenty of guys will want to play with him.

[weezie]

Actually, I don't think the Bulls are a good fit for Singler in terms of playing time. They already have a SF (Deng) and they're really committed to him. At the SG spot, they have a better shooter in Korver and a better defender in Brewer. So I don't think Singler would find playing time there. He'd be on a really good team (and as a Bulls fan I'm always happy to see more Duke guys on the team), but I'd hope there are better opportunities out there.


JJ taught me to never doubt a determined, hard working player and Kyle certainly fits that description. Ya' never know.
I still think it would be a great pick-up for the bull.

[darjum]

JJ taught me to never doubt a determined, hard working player and Kyle certainly fits that description. Ya' never know.
I still think it would be a great pick-up for the bull.

I know this sounds crazy, but I would take Kyle over Richard Jefferson to start for the Spurs. He would fit well with the Spurs work ethic and at this stage he's ready to be a major contributor for an appropriate team. If he doesn't get drafted in the first round it is a complete travesty, considering had he come out after his freshman year he would have probably been late lottery.

[superdave]

With the #1 overall pick Irving appears to be the consensus. I dont expect workouts or interviews to change that.

More interestingly, Cleveland also has the #4. Baron Davis has 3 years left on his deal at $14m per; Antawn Jamison has 2 years left at $13.4 m per. Cleveland also has a $14.5 m trade exception from Lebron leaving. They could move the pick if they dont get who they want there. Their two biggest contracts are not expiring, but one could be packaged with the trade exception and the pick to swing a bigger deal. Perhaps they could get Rudy Gay or another similar player with some of these assets.

[sagegrouse]

I know this might be blasphemous and get me removed from DBR altogether, but there is a chance that Kyrie doesn't actually go #1. Before you start writing scathing criticisms to my comment hear me out.

In my opinion there are 4 players who stand out as being potential impact players, similar to 2005 when Bogut, Paul, M.Williams and D.Williams were the top picks. This time it is Irving, Williams, Kanter and Brandon Knight. In order for Irving to not go #1, Cleveland has to be CERTAIN that there is a massive difference between Kyrie and Brandon Knight and they really have to like William's out of Arizona. If we assume (a big assumption) that Minnesota isn't going to pick another PG, especially with Rubio coming over, the Cavs may actually take William's with the first pick, Minny picks Kanter or Valanciunas to team with Love, and then Utah takes Irving at #3, leaving the Cav's to take Knight...that is assuming they feel the difference between Knight and Irving isn't that great, particularly with the recent history of #1 overall picks and injury concerns (I don't care what anybody tells me, teams will be worried about Irving's toe).

Otherwise, the Cavs take Irving, Minny takes Williams or Kanter, Utah takes the remaing player, leaving the Cav's to have to draft Jonas Valanciunas, Tristan Thompson or Bismack Biyombo as they already took Irving #1 and we don't want another Minny draft from 2009. Keep in mind that Utah does have D.Harris, so drafting another PG might not be a priority? Although I'd take Irving or Knight over Harris.

So maybe Irving doesn't end up in Cleveland, but as most websites indicate, and any Duke fan who watched Irving for the first section of the year knows, his talent might be too much to pass up and the Cavs do take him #1. With that in mind, peoples criticism of the Cavs situation is not how I see it. Learning under a rejuvenated B.Davis (if you look at how he played for the Cavs in the final quarter of the season, he played very well) may actually be a good learning environment for Irving and take some of the pressure off. The Cavs will want improvement, but they will want to be in the lottery picking up high picks for a few years so expectations will still be low. The next few drafts have the potential to be loaded and the Cavs may want to put themselves in a position to reload quickly.

It would be great for the Duke program to have a player go #1 overall, but it's not as certain in my eyes as ESPN made it out to be.

Not blasphemous at all -- having two of the top four picks makes the strategy pretty darn interesting. Then there's the possibility of trading one of the two picks for an experienced player, although the labor relations situation may make that unlikely.

sagegrouse

[flyingdutchdevil]

This isn't a shot at Cleveland fans. This isn't a shot at Kyrie at all. But Kyrie must have been sulking after the lottery yesterday. There were a lot of teams that could have been up-and-comers hard they won the lottery and taken Kyrie (Minnesota, Utah, Sacramento, Toronto to name a few). These teams have up-and-coming players who needed a great PG to lead them. And then Cleveland wins the lottery. What does Cleveland have right now? An ageing and grumpy PG. An outside shooting PF with no toughness. An ex-NC State PF that is still learning the game and no one knows his true upside. A whole slew of role players that would be 10-12 men on any other roster. They have the 1 and 4 picks this year. Unfortunately, this is a crazy weak draft where, after the 1 and 2 spots, nothing is guaranteed. They would take Kanter or some unknown European SF/PF/C who needs 3-4 years to mature and may turn out to be a Darko.

I think Kyrie will kill it in the NBA and, in a couple of years, possibly be a top 5 PG in the NBA (considering the depth of NBA PGs right now, that is a huge compliment). But his team is in the dumps right now. This isn't like Paul who had a few parts like West and a strong management. This is the Cavs, who's bad luck is second to the Clippers and has really poor management.

I want Kyrie to succeed and I'm sure he will. But it will take a lot of patience (and possibly a different team) to do so.

[gwlaw99]

This isn't a shot at Cleveland fans. This isn't a shot at Kyrie at all. But Kyrie must have been sulking after the lottery yesterday. There were a lot of teams that could have been up-and-comers hard they won the lottery and taken Kyrie (Minnesota, Utah, Sacramento, Toronto to name a few). These teams have up-and-coming players who needed a great PG to lead them. And then Cleveland wins the lottery. What does Cleveland have right now? An ageing and grumpy PG. An outside shooting PF with no toughness. An ex-NC State PF that is still learning the game and no one knows his true upside. A whole slew of role players that would be 10-12 men on any other roster. They have the 1 and 4 picks this year. Unfortunately, this is a crazy weak draft where, after the 1 and 2 spots, nothing is guaranteed. They would take Kanter or some unknown European SF/PF/C who needs 3-4 years to mature and may turn out to be a Darko.

I think Kyrie will kill it in the NBA and, in a couple of years, possibly be a top 5 PG in the NBA (considering the depth of NBA PGs right now, that is a huge compliment). But his team is in the dumps right now. This isn't like Paul who had a few parts like West and a strong management. This is the Cavs, who's bad luck is second to the Clippers and has really poor management.

I want Kyrie to succeed and I'm sure he will. But it will take a lot of patience (and possibly a different team) to do so.

If the Cavs get Irving and Kanter and get a good lottery pick next year, they will have a nice young core.

[flyingdutchdevil]

If the Cavs get Irving and Kanter and get a good lottery pick next year, they will have a nice young core.

Listen to the podcast with Bill Simmons and Chad Ford that just came out. NBA scouts are basing Kanters potential on 2 games. 2 games. That is unbelievable. Kanter may be good, but I can't see him as even a Zach Randolph type. The Cavs will have one difference maker in Kyrie (and nothing is guaranteed in the NBA) and will need a lot of drafts to make it happen. They could go like OKC, but that involves great management (which the Cavs don't have) and luck (which the Cavs may have). Or they could go like the Timberwolves, and that isn't a pretty story.

[NashvilleDevil]

They could go like OKC, but that involves great management (which the Cavs don't have) and luck (which the Cavs may have). Or they could go like the Timberwolves, and that isn't a pretty story.

So how come in your previous post you thought it would be better if Kyrie landed in Minnesota? Minnesota has never been a well run organization. If Kyrie goes there (it's still possible if D. Williams goes 1) then Love and Beasley could be gone if they decide to blow it up again. Some were saying it would have been nice if he had gone to the Clippers. While playing with Blake and Gordon would have been great, it is still a team owned by Donald Sterling and until he is gone they will continue to not attract the top free agents and lose their best players when they hit free agency.

I think Cleveland or Utah would have been great for Kyrie. Maybe Gilbert learned from the mistakes made during LeBron's years and now they will do better at building a team.

[Kdogg]

The Hornets were pretty much a black hole until Chris Paul got there. If Irving proves to be as good as expected, plenty of guys will want to play with him.

The Hornets were far from a black hole during their time in Charlotte. Average? Maybe, but I would argue slightly better than average but they were definitely not a black hole. I still have fond memories of the LJ, Muggsy, Curry teams.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

The Hornets were far from a black hole during their time in Charlotte. Average? Maybe, but I would argue slightly better than average but they were definitely not a black hole. I still have fond memories of the LJ, Muggsy, Curry teams.

LJ and Kendall Gill were unstoppable in NBA Jam.

[gwlaw99]

Listen to the podcast with Bill Simmons and Chad Ford that just came out. NBA scouts are basing Kanters potential on 2 games. 2 games. That is unbelievable. Kanter may be good, but I can't see him as even a Zach Randolph type. The Cavs will have one difference maker in Kyrie (and nothing is guaranteed in the NBA) and will need a lot of drafts to make it happen. They could go like OKC, but that involves great management (which the Cavs don't have) and luck (which the Cavs may have). Or they could go like the Timberwolves, and that isn't a pretty story.

Well, he did play a year of high school basketball as a senior in the US so he was highly recruited and watched by scouts. Other than Kentucky, he had offers from Washington UCLA, USC, Indiana, and UNLV. He was rated the #1 center in his high scholl class by Scout.com (http://http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4508332). Rivals.com (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-1909)rated him the #3 overall player in his class. He was also named the Most Valuable Player in the 2009FIBA Europe Under-18 Championship, averaging 18.6 points and 16.4 rebounds

Sure, it's not like its a year of college, but its more than 2 games.

[Billy Dat]

Well, he did play a year of high school basketball as a senior in the US so he was highly recruited and watched by scouts. Other than Kentucky, he had offers from Washington UCLA, USC, Indiana, and UNLV. He was rated the #1 center in his high scholl class by Scout.com (http://http://scouthoops.scout.com/a.z?s=75&p=8&c=1&nid=4508332). Rivals.com (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/recruiting/rankings/rank-1909)rated him the #3 overall player in his class. He was also named the Most Valuable Player in the 2009FIBA Europe Under-18 Championship, averaging 18.6 points and 16.4 rebounds

Sure, it's not like its a year of college, but its more than 2 games.

The BS Report with Ford was interesting. They talked about how many NBA segment prospects by Tier when deciding who to draft:

Tier 1- potential NBA Superstars/Franchise guys
Tier 2 - NBA All Star potential
Tier 3 - 3rd-5th Starter potential
Tier 4 - Rotation guys

The said this year's draft has no Tier 1s, two Tier 2s (Irving/Kanter most likely), a handful of Tier 3s, but a ton of Tier 4s. As a result, they feel that positions 3-7 are a disaster as teams always want a pick that high to be at least a Tier 2. In terms of Kanter, let's also remember that he played pro for a few years overseas which was probably equal to a few years of college in the US. Plus, Turkish players are all the rage right now...Asik, Erden, Ilyasova...pass the kebabs!

[theAlaskanBear]

The BS Report with Ford was interesting. They talked about how many NBA segment prospects by Tier when deciding who to draft:

Tier 1- potential NBA Superstars/Franchise guys
Tier 2 - NBA All Star potential
Tier 3 - 3rd-5th Starter potential
Tier 4 - Rotation guys

The said this year's draft has no Tier 1s, two Tier 2s (Irving/Kanter most likely), a handful of Tier 3s, but a ton of Tier 4s. As a result, they feel that positions 3-7 are a disaster as teams always want a pick that high to be at least a Tier 2. In terms of Kanter, let's also remember that he played pro for a few years overseas which was probably equal to a few years of college in the US. Plus, Turkish players are all the rage right now...Asik, Erden, Ilyasova...pass the kebabs!

Semih Erden (Celtics), Hedo Turkoglu (Magic), Mehmet Okur (Jazz).

For awhile I thought Zaza Pachulia was Turkish as well, but he is Georgian! The Turkish national team is ranked #6 in FIBA, and the nickname of the team is 12 dev adam: "twelve giant men." A room mate in school was Turkish -- he said that basketball is pretty popular among the youth, and is more of a middle/upper-class game where he was from.

[Billy Dat]

Semih Erden (Celtics), Hedo Turkoglu (Magic), Mehmet Okur (Jazz).

For awhile I thought Zaza Pachulia was Turkish as well, but he is Georgian! The Turkish national team is ranked #6 in FIBA, and the nickname of the team is 12 dev adam: "twelve giant men." A room mate in school was Turkish -- he said that basketball is pretty popular among the youth, and is more of a middle/upper-class game where he was from.

Good call...the 12 Giant Men song was echoing around the World Championships in Turkey this past summer where they rode a wave of local enthusiasm to the finals against the USA where they met Kevin Durant and turned into 12 Silver Medals.

[Atlanta Duke]

NYT article on Kyrie going to Cleveland, with this quote from Drederick Irving on stereotypes about one and done players

“Everybody in my family has gotten our degrees, our master’s,” said the elder Irving, a Wall Street financial broker who left a job at Cantor Fitzgerald in the World Trade Center six months before 9/11. “We value the education aspect of it with Kyrie.”

The Times reporter then adds this shot at the NBA halfway house in Lexington while noting that Kyrie's godfather is former NBA player and UK assistant coach Rod Strickland:)

Had they not, Kyrie would have been with John Calipari at Kentucky last season, where the godfather, Strickland, works as an assistant coach. Irving finished his spring semester at Duke and shook his father’s hand on a pact to get his degree within five years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/sports/basketball/fate-hands-cavaliers-a-no-1-pick.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fs ports%2Findex.jsonp

[g-money]

NYT article on Kyrie going to Cleveland, with this quote from Drederick Irving on stereotypes about one and done players

“Everybody in my family has gotten our degrees, our master’s,” said the elder Irving, a Wall Street financial broker who left a job at Cantor Fitzgerald in the World Trade Center six months before 9/11. “We value the education aspect of it with Kyrie.”

The Times reporter then adds this shot at the NBA halfway house in Lexington while noting that Kyrie's godfather is former NBA player and UK assistant coach Rod Strickland:)

Had they not, Kyrie would have been with John Calipari at Kentucky last season, where the godfather, Strickland, works as an assistant coach. Irving finished his spring semester at Duke and shook his father’s hand on a pact to get his degree within five years.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/05/19/sports/basketball/fate-hands-cavaliers-a-no-1-pick.html?src=un&feedurl=http%3A%2F%2Fjson8.nytimes.com%2Fpages%2Fs ports%2Findex.jsonp

Wow, great article. Here's hoping Kyrie makes good on his pledge to get a degree. He's got a huge hill to climb with only one year of college under his belt, but my sense is that he'll have so many more opportunities later in life if he can push through.

In the meantime, I'm looking forward to watching KI battle - and figure out how to beat - all the great point guards in the NBA next year. It's a different kind of education, but one that will still make us proud.

[BD80]

Wow, great article. Here's hoping Kyrie makes good on his pledge to get a degree. He's got a huge hill to climb with only one year of college under his belt, but my sense is that he'll have so many more opportunities later in life if he can push through. ...

That included two summer semesters.

[Duke of Nashville]

Kyrie will have a hug task in Clevland. He'll get plenty of attention and I can not wait for him to fill the hype.

I hope Nolan Smith gets drafted by the Knicks at #17. I think he would be a lot of fun to watch on such a big stage. Playing with Amare and Melo would be interesting as well to follow.

Kyle Singler at #21 to Portland would be great for his family and fans. I could see it happen, but the experts don't have it that way.

Oh well. Good luck to them all!

[CDu]

Kyrie will have a hug task in Clevland. He'll get plenty of attention and I can not wait for him to fill the hype.

I hope Nolan Smith gets drafted by the Knicks at #17. I think he would be a lot of fun to watch on such a big stage. Playing with Amare and Melo would be interesting as well to follow.

Kyle Singler at #21 to Portland would be great for his family and fans. I could see it happen, but the experts don't have it that way.

Oh well. Good luck to them all!

Unfortunately, I don't think Portland is a likely destination for Singler (at least not in the first round). They have Wallace, Matthews, Fernandez, and Roy all signed through next year, and I'm guessing they'd like to retain Wallace at the 3. I can't see them committing guaranteed money to a guy who might be battling for 4th in the wing rotation.

[Wheat/"/"/"]

I made a dinner bet with a buddy of mine back in March that Singler would not get drafted in the first round, and now I am not as confident about it as I was at the time I made it... with all the returning players and a generally weak draft.

It's not that I don't think he's a very good player, and one that will play in the league, it's just that I can't see where he will match up with his skill set to justify a first round pick.

I'm thinking GM's will look for a diamond in the rough gamble in the first and get him second round and save some money.

And I think Nolan goes higher than 17......

[darjum]

I made a dinner bet with a buddy of mine back in March that Singler would not get drafted in the first round

I do understand your bet and it's such a shame that it probably was an even money bet, because had he come out after his freshman year would you have made the same bet?! No, because there was still the unknown about Kyle back then, hence the dreaded "P" word.

What Kyle may lack in "potential" he makes up in being able to actually play! At no point in his career did I look at Kyle's play and say "this guy can't play in the NBA". I remember looking at Gerald Henderson in his Jr year and feeling, "he's ready for the league". I looked at Kyle in his Fr year and thought the same thing!

Hopefully some GM gets wise and picks him in the first rnd, because he will have a 10+ year career in the NBA, he just needs to hook on with the right team. My fingers are still crossed for the Spurs.

[Billy Dat]

I do understand your bet and it's such a shame that it probably was an even money bet, because had he come out after his freshman year would you have made the same bet?! No, because there was still the unknown about Kyle back then, hence the dreaded "P" word.

What Kyle may lack in "potential" he makes up in being able to actually play! At no point in his career did I look at Kyle's play and say "this guy can't play in the NBA". I remember looking at Gerald Henderson in his Jr year and feeling, "he's ready for the league". I looked at Kyle in his Fr year and thought the same thing!

Hopefully some GM gets wise and picks him in the first rnd, because he will have a 10+ year career in the NBA, he just needs to hook on with the right team. My fingers are still crossed for the Spurs.

Nothing has hurt him more than his lackluster outside shooting last season. If he gets hot in these workouts, he could move up.

[COYS]

I do understand your bet and it's such a shame that it probably was an even money bet, because had he come out after his freshman year would you have made the same bet?! No, because there was still the unknown about Kyle back then, hence the dreaded "P" word.

What Kyle may lack in "potential" he makes up in being able to actually play! At no point in his career did I look at Kyle's play and say "this guy can't play in the NBA". I remember looking at Gerald Henderson in his Jr year and feeling, "he's ready for the league". I looked at Kyle in his Fr year and thought the same thing!

Hopefully some GM gets wise and picks him in the first rnd, because he will have a 10+ year career in the NBA, he just needs to hook on with the right team. My fingers are still crossed for the Spurs.

I feel like this is going to be one of those drafts where a LOT of 6-10'' to 7-0'' "projects" are drafted in the first round simply because GM's tend to be willing to risk money on big guys who are generally harder to find than guards like Nolan or SF like Kyle. That being said, we're also going to look back on this draft and see a fairly large number of names listed in the first round that no one remembers because they were projects that never panned out. Personally, I hope a contender gets to the point where they could draft a project OR go with a guy they know will give them quality minutes right away, even if he never becomes a star. Depending on what some of the international prospects decide on staying in the draft or how willing OKC is to spend money on buying out a Euro contract, I could see a team like OKC (who just might be coming off a title year, you never know) deciding to go for Kyle with pick 24. They don't really have another true SF to back up Durant. Sefolosha is a strong defender but offers little on the offensive end. Kyle can come in off the bench, provide solid defense, good rebounding, and knock down open jumpers right away. Of course, on the other hand, OKC really needs depth at the center position as well, so taking a project center with defensive instincts wouldn't be a bad choice either. Regardless, I still think that whichever team ends up with Kyle will be very happy and is destined to get more value than they could have expected considering how low in the draft Kyle is likely to go.

[Double DD]

Listen to the podcast with Bill Simmons and Chad Ford that just came out. NBA scouts are basing Kanters potential on 2 games. 2 games. That is unbelievable. Kanter may be good, but I can't see him as even a Zach Randolph type. The Cavs will have one difference maker in Kyrie (and nothing is guaranteed in the NBA) and will need a lot of drafts to make it happen. They could go like OKC, but that involves great management (which the Cavs don't have) and luck (which the Cavs may have). Or they could go like the Timberwolves, and that isn't a pretty story.

Did Ford say that? That's a bit of an exaggeration. Kanter is definitely a bit of a mystery, but the scouts do have his perfomance at the Under 18 championships as well to evaluate him on where he was the MVP two years ago after averaging 19 and 16. Interestingly, the last 3 MVPs of that tournament should all be top ten picks this year, (Motiejunas in 2008 and Valanciunas in 2010).

[Starter]

I feel like this is going to be one of those drafts where a LOT of 6-10'' to 7-0'' "projects" are drafted in the first round simply because GM's tend to be willing to risk money on big guys who are generally harder to find than guards like Nolan or SF like Kyle. That being said, we're also going to look back on this draft and see a fairly large number of names listed in the first round that no one remembers because they were projects that never panned out. Personally, I hope a contender gets to the point where they could draft a project OR go with a guy they know will give them quality minutes right away, even if he never becomes a star. Depending on what some of the international prospects decide on staying in the draft or how willing OKC is to spend money on buying out a Euro contract, I could see a team like OKC (who just might be coming off a title year, you never know) deciding to go for Kyle with pick 24. They don't really have another true SF to back up Durant. Sefolosha is a strong defender but offers little on the offensive end. Kyle can come in off the bench, provide solid defense, good rebounding, and knock down open jumpers right away. Of course, on the other hand, OKC really needs depth at the center position as well, so taking a project center with defensive instincts wouldn't be a bad choice either. Regardless, I still think that whichever team ends up with Kyle will be very happy and is destined to get more value than they could have expected considering how low in the draft Kyle is likely to go.

I think this seems like a pretty reasonable assessment of both Singler's potential destinations and the wide variety of foreign players who will get drafted this year. Honestly, with the diminished state of NCAA ball, if I'm a GM, I'd roll the dice on someone who has thrived in the international game more than someone they've seen have success on an unremarkable college level. That's what Kyle and Nolan are dealing with.

That said, Nolan won't have a problem at all. Teams are looking for what he brings to the table, especially with guys like Maynor and Teague having such great postseasons. I'd love to see him on the Knicks too, I view him as a better version of Toney Douglas (i.e. one that can shoot). And I have to agree with COYS, I think a contender will love to take Singler somewhere in the mid-20s, figuring his jump shot will become a definitive strength on the next level. I see him as being able to carve out a Korver/Kapono type niche if he can improve that, especially since I don't think his bread and butter in the pros will be slashing or overpowering people.

[CDu]

I think this seems like a pretty reasonable assessment of both Singler's potential destinations and the wide variety of foreign players who will get drafted this year. Honestly, with the diminished state of NCAA ball, if I'm a GM, I'd roll the dice on someone who has thrived in the international game more than someone they've seen have success on an unremarkable college level. That's what Kyle and Nolan are dealing with.

I think a good part of it has to do with not wanting to pay guaranteed money to a guy you don't think is going to be more than a back of the rotation player. With the Euro guys, they don't necessarily have to come over (which frees up salary cap space), and there's always the potential (though most of the Euro guys don't pan out either). That's why you see so many foreign players go in the second half of the first round instead of low-ceiling college stars.


That said, Nolan won't have a problem at all. Teams are looking for what he brings to the table, especially with guys like Maynor and Teague having such great postseasons. I'd love to see him on the Knicks too, I view him as a better version of Toney Douglas (i.e. one that can shoot).

I always thought Douglas was a good shooter. He's a career 43% shooter (38% 3pt shooter) in the NBA. That's pretty reasonable for a guard these days. I'd be surprised if Smith shot a higher percentage than that, actually. But I do see them as similar types of players (good defense, solid outside shot, good quickness and toughness, more scorer than distributor). I agree that Smith will find a home, probably as a 3rd guard but potentially as a starter (the proliferation of young talented PG will make finding a starting spot a bit trickier).


And I have to agree with COYS, I think a contender will love to take Singler somewhere in the mid-20s, figuring his jump shot will become a definitive strength on the next level. I see him as being able to carve out a Korver/Kapono type niche if he can improve that, especially since I don't think his bread and butter in the pros will be slashing or overpowering people.

The concern with Singler is that he wasn't a good shooter this year. Kapono and Korver are two of the best perimeter shooters in the league, so Singler will need to improve his shooting touch A LOT to carve out that type of role. He's a smart player and an energy guy, but I don't know whether or not he'll translate to the next level (where he'll no longer be a big option at SF).

[sagegrouse]

The concern with Singler is that he wasn't a good shooter this year. Kapono and Korver are two of the best perimeter shooters in the league, so Singler will need to improve his shooting touch A LOT to carve out that type of role. He's a smart player and an energy guy, but I don't know whether or not he'll translate to the next level (where he'll no longer be a big option at SF).

I think projecting players to the NBA is a hazardous business except for the very few. That said, I found it interesting that Singler received one seond team All-American honor this year -- from the Natl Association of Basketball Coaches. Those guys were paying attention to how much he does on the floor besides shooting and scoring.

I think Kyle will not only make the league but see plenty of time on the court as a rookie. His learning curve is gonna be lower than most other players, given how well he sees the court and how much knowledge he has of the game. I expect energy and shooting will also help.

But we'll see.

sagegrouse

[sporthenry]

After watching some of the combine, its funny to note the huge discrepancy between Fraschilla/Elmore and Ford/Penn. Elmore/Fraschilla just base everything off what they saw this year in college basketball and while I'm not a huge fan of drafting on potential, at some point, you have to project these players after they develop. They were saying that the Cavs should pass on Kyrie and take Kemba b/c they weren't sold on Kyrie b/c he didn't play the whole year.
One other argument that really caught my ear was that they said Boston made a mistake by drafting Avery Bradley and Ainge was afraid to admit it when he said he would be a top 5 pick this year, and they compared it to the Sam Young pick. While I agree the Sam Young pick was a good one and perhaps he fell a bit too far b/c of his age, to write off Bradley who is almost 6 years his younger at this point is ridiculous. It all depends what situation the team is in but drafting someone like Selby or Tobias Harris and giving them the year or two to develop when they would be in college should not be held against the team. These types of players really only came about after the 1 and done rule so its a bit premature to see how those picks play out but the one player who fits this bill the most would probably be Jrue Holiday who fell to 17 and has developed rather nicely.

[gwlaw99]

After watching some of the combine, its funny to note the huge discrepancy between Fraschilla/Elmore and Ford/Penn. Elmore/Fraschilla just base everything off what they saw this year in college basketball and while I'm not a huge fan of drafting on potential, at some point, you have to project these players after they develop. They were saying that the Cavs should pass on Kyrie and take Kemba b/c they weren't sold on Kyrie b/c he didn't play the whole year.
One other argument that really caught my ear was that they said Boston made a mistake by drafting Avery Bradley and Ainge was afraid to admit it when he said he would be a top 5 pick this year, and they compared it to the Sam Young pick. While I agree the Sam Young pick was a good one and perhaps he fell a bit too far b/c of his age, to write off Bradley who is almost 6 years his younger at this point is ridiculous. It all depends what situation the team is in but drafting someone like Selby or Tobias Harris and giving them the year or two to develop when they would be in college should not be held against the team. These types of players really only came about after the 1 and done rule so its a bit premature to see how those picks play out but the one player who fits this bill the most would probably be Jrue Holiday who fell to 17 and has developed rather nicely.

One of the talking heads on ESPNU today said Singler will be out of the NBA in 2-3 years. I will have to rewatch to see who it was. Elmore actually then stood up for Singler.

[Billy Dat]

Kyle is going to go through the process that every player transitioning from college to the pros goes through, figuring out how he needs to change his game to stick. The stars usually have a smoother transition, once they figure the game out, their skills allow them to dominate as they did in college/high school. Everybody else adjusts.

One of the first steps is transforming your body to maximize your potential. Kyle will need to get stronger and quicker. Then, odds are, he'll have to earn minutes as an energy guy that can hit an open shot out to 3 point range, offense rebound, and contain his man within a team concept. If he can carve out a Nick Collison-esque career, not the same game but similar in impact, I think he'll have been wildly successful.

10 years, rotation guy, $50MM+ career earnings.

[SCMatt33]

Hadn't seen this on here yet, so I thought I would post a link to the official combine measurements (http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=19859)

Player / Ht no shoes / Ht shoes / Wingspan
Irving / 6' 1.75" / 6' 3.5" / 6'4"
Singler / 6' 7.5" / 6' 8.5" / 6' 10.1"
Smith / 6' 1.5" / 6' 3.5" / 6' 5.5"

There aren't really any surprises here as each one measured out to be just under their Duke listed height without shoes, but above their listed height in shoes (which is what the NBA officially uses). There aren't a whole ton of shockers on this year's list overall. There was NO player at the combine who measured at 7' even with shoes. Without shoes, the tallest guy in the draft was Nikola Vucevic, at 6'10.25". On the short end, Isaiah Thomas came in at just over 5'10" with shoes on, and that was actually a bit bigger than what was expected. Without shoes, Kemba Walker was under 6' but 6'1" with them.

[Starter]

I think a good part of it has to do with not wanting to pay guaranteed money to a guy you don't think is going to be more than a back of the rotation player. With the Euro guys, they don't necessarily have to come over (which frees up salary cap space), and there's always the potential (though most of the Euro guys don't pan out either). That's why you see so many foreign players go in the second half of the first round instead of low-ceiling college stars.


Yup, teams definitely take guys to stash them. They also take them because a lot of times, they're more polished and flat-out better than the American college equivalents. Besides of course Parker and Ginobili, off the top, you have Varejao, Diaw, Beaubois, Gortat, Ibaka, Kirilenko, Dragic, Marc Gasol, Okur... all guys nobody knew at the time they were taken, and yet you'd take them collectively or individually over nearly any college player drafted around the spots they were selected.




I always thought Douglas was a good shooter. He's a career 43% shooter (38% 3pt shooter) in the NBA. That's pretty reasonable for a guard these days. I'd be surprised if Smith shot a higher percentage than that, actually. But I do see them as similar types of players (good defense, solid outside shot, good quickness and toughness, more scorer than distributor). I agree that Smith will find a home, probably as a 3rd guard but potentially as a starter (the proliferation of young talented PG will make finding a starting spot a bit trickier).



Not for nothing, 43% isn't really that good -- at least, it's not if you don't bring anything else to the table. As in, Allen Iverson shot terrible percentages but had a multitude of other positive aspects to his game. (Also, take it from a Knicks fan who cringes every time Toney D shoots). We'll see how it goes for Nolan; I would hope he has the potential -- and pedigree -- to be a better shooter than Douglas as he transitions to the NBA game. But we essentially agree in terms of why the two are comparable. You're right in that being a rotation player, at least at first (and possibly long-term) is probably where we're at here. Teague didn't start right away either, and appears to have a bright future.


The concern with Singler is that he wasn't a good shooter this year. Kapono and Korver are two of the best perimeter shooters in the league, so Singler will need to improve his shooting touch A LOT to carve out that type of role. He's a smart player and an energy guy, but I don't know whether or not he'll translate to the next level (where he'll no longer be a big option at SF).

Kyle definitely didn't shoot well this year, but he's been a 40% shooter on threes before. The skills are there. I actually wonder if he ever really recovered from that knee issue from the preseason. He wore a brace for a lot of the year, and frankly looked like a different, more tentative player. Either way, we agree that he's not going to overpower anyone, but everyone becomes a much better shooter in the pros. I see no reason why Singler can't -- if for nothing more than sheer necessity -- in order to become a rotation player somewhere.

[Starter]

Kyle is going to go through the process that every player transitioning from college to the pros goes through, figuring out how he needs to change his game to stick. The stars usually have a smoother transition, once they figure the game out, their skills allow them to dominate as they did in college/high school. Everybody else adjusts.

One of the first steps is transforming your body to maximize your potential. Kyle will need to get stronger and quicker. Then, odds are, he'll have to earn minutes as an energy guy that can hit an open shot out to 3 point range, offense rebound, and contain his man within a team concept. If he can carve out a Nick Collison-esque career, not the same game but similar in impact, I think he'll have been wildly successful.

10 years, rotation guy, $50MM+ career earnings.

Cosign on all of this. I think he's smart enough to figure out what he has to do to make it work, and then do it. He may not be able to rebound like Collison, but he'll figure out things to offer.

[tommy]

A few interesting tidbits here (http://thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=728). Including the fact that Enes Kanter and Jeremy Tyler, of all people, impressed on the floor. Wazzoo's Klay Thompson too.

For the Duke-centric, Kyrie, Kyle and Nolan were all good in the interview room, and Kyrie apparently had a good run at the ping pong table, but nobody could touch Ohio State's Jon Diebler there.

On the negative side, Imam Shumpert and LaceDarius Dunn, among others, did not impress in interviews.

[darjum]

A few interesting tidbits here (http://thehoopsreport.com/article.aspx?id=728). Including the fact that Enes Kanter and Jeremy Tyler, of all people, impressed on the floor. Wazzoo's Klay Thompson too.

For the Duke-centric, Kyrie, Kyle and Nolan were all good in the interview room, and Kyrie apparently had a good run at the ping pong table, but nobody could touch Ohio State's Jon Diebler there.

On the negative side, Imam Shumpert and LaceDarius Dunn, among others, did not impress in interviews.

Two things that stood out in the article to me were:

"A source said that the Utah Jazz are very interested in Kemba Walker at No. 3. The question is what they would then do with Devin Harris. They could move Harris to shooting guard and play him alongside Walker".

"Derrick Williams stressed that he is an NBA small forward. But his skill set resembles more of a power forward at this point. However, he measured at 6-foot-7 without shoes".

Really, Kemba Walker? He's a fine player, but this must be a really weak draft if he goes #3. Personally I would take Brandon Knight in a heart beat over Kemba as far as pro potential goes.

Pro scouts and GM's get a bit scared by the word tweener, which is what William's essentially saying he is.

[flyingdutchdevil]

1. Dammit Clippers. Why did you have to trade that pick? Can you imagine playing Kyrie with Blake Griffin AND Gordon? Sigh...

2. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Kyrie is a fatty :p. He had one of the highest body fat percentages in the combine. Obviously, he is still getting back into shape and will inevitably lose the weight (unless he hires Sean May's chef), but I think it's funny that he's one of the "fatter" athletes in the draft.

[darjum]

1. Dammit Clippers. Why did you have to trade that pick? Can you imagine playing Kyrie with Blake Griffin AND Gordon? Sigh...

2. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Kyrie is a fatty :p. He had one of the highest body fat percentages in the combine. Obviously, he is still getting back into shape and will inevitably lose the weight (unless he hires Sean May's chef), but I think it's funny that he's one of the "fatter" athletes in the draft.

In reference to your second point maybe instead of "two quick points" as your title you should change to "two round points"! I'm sure he'll get back in shape fast...unless of course you're right and he begins an all burger diet...

Yes, Kyrie and Blake would have been a thing of beauty. The Clips are doomed!

[Bluedog]

1. Dammit Clippers. Why did you have to trade that pick? Can you imagine playing Kyrie with Blake Griffin AND Gordon? Sigh...

2. I mean this in the nicest way possible, but Kyrie is a fatty :p. He had one of the highest body fat percentages in the combine. Obviously, he is still getting back into shape and will inevitably lose the weight (unless he hires Sean May's chef), but I think it's funny that he's one of the "fatter" athletes in the draft.

1. Yep...

2. While he'll probably get that down as he hasn't played that much ball in the past several months, I don't think body fat really tells you that much. Do you think Derrick and Jordan Williams (or Singler) aren't in shape?

Singler 10.0%
Kyrie 10.2%
Markieff Morris 10.2%
Derrick Williams 10.8%
Dejuan Blair 12.0%
Jordan Williams 12.1%
Trey Thompkins 15.5%

I guess it's more uncommon for guards to have 10%+ body fat, though. Durant couldn't do ONE bench press rep. Did that mean he is a weakling who can't make it in the league? Obviously not. ;)

This is not meant to disparage or even disagree with you flyingdutchdevil. I agree it's kinda funny and you meant it in a lighthearted manner. Just saying these combine numbers have very limited utility, in my opinion. Maybe wingspan and reach are somewhat useful. DeMarcus Nelson had an absurdly low 4.5% body fat and tied Joey Dorsey in the bench press with 19 for one of the best in the camp...Unfortunately, nobody selected him in the draft. Although his height may have been disappointing, but obviously they take more into consideration than simply these numbers.

[BD80]

... Kyrie ... will inevitably lose the weight (unless he hires Sean May's chef), ...

I thought Colonel Sanders passed away ...

Is Popeye still around?

[devildeac]

I do understand your bet and it's such a shame that it probably was an even money bet, because had he come out after his freshman year would you have made the same bet?! No, because there was still the unknown about Kyle back then, hence the dreaded "P" word.

What Kyle may lack in "potential" he makes up in being able to actually play! At no point in his career did I look at Kyle's play and say "this guy can't play in the NBA". I remember looking at Gerald Henderson in his Jr year and feeling, "he's ready for the league". I looked at Kyle in his Fr year and thought the same thing!

Hopefully some GM gets wise and picks him in the first rnd, because he will have a 10+ year career in the NBA, he just needs to hook on with the right team. My fingers are still crossed for the Spurs.

Not sure if anyone has linked this yet but a nice read about Kyle:
http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/05/22/1215386/singler-says-duke-stay-was-a-help.html

[devildeac]

I made a dinner bet with a buddy of mine back in March that Singler would not get drafted in the first round, and now I am not as confident about it as I was at the time I made it... with all the returning players and a generally weak draft.

It's not that I don't think he's a very good player, and one that will play in the league, it's just that I can't see where he will match up with his skill set to justify a first round pick.

I'm thinking GM's will look for a diamond in the rough gamble in the first and get him second round and save some money.

And I think Nolan goes higher than 17......

Nice article in the Raleigh N&O today about Nolan:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/05/22/1215388/nolan-smith-knows-how-to-compete.html

[devildeac]

I thought Colonel Sanders passed away ...

Is Popeye still around?

Do you mean this one?

http://www.popeyes.com/



;)

[timmy c]

draft express has some NBA draft combine vid's for your viewing pleasure. Check out:
Kyle Singler Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G-U3WQOokQA&feature=player_embedded)
Kyrie Irving Video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErMV6N5WyHc&feature=player_embedded)

[Greg_Newton]

1 7'7" wingspan. SEVEN-SEVEN. That's unheard of.

2. He's very powerfully built with <5% body fat and an excellent, coordinated all-around athlete. How many guys with wingspans in even the 7'5+ range have ever been able to claim that? Shaq, 'Zo, Kemp, Ibekwe, Ibaka... not many others. From a pure length, body, and athleticism standpoint as a prospect, he's in rarified air with Shaq, 'Zo, and Kemp, IMO. He's definitely no Sene or Riek.

3. He plays with a fanatical competitiveness and aggression. He's a tough, intimidating dude. He gets every bit out of his physical gifts, rather than coasting on them.

4. He doesn't just rely on length to block shots - has incredible instincts and timing, and he covers huge amounts of lateral ground for blocks. He almost literally contests every shot at the rim.

5. While he's still a teenager and new to the game, he's already performed very well in Europe and is improving very rapidly, and is supposedly very charismatic and engaging.

6. This often gets overlooked, but the fact that his wingspan is a full foot longer than his height gives him a major advantage. Over the years, players learn how to instantaneously formulate their approach to the basket based on the opposing player's size and position when they jump, unconsciously estimating roughly how high the player will be able to get to challenge their shot, and adjusting accordingly. Byongo's massive discrepency means he'll always be able to reach a few inches higher than a player's instinct will expect him to, which is a much bigger advantage than you might think.

Honestly, I don't know if I've ever seen a group of high-level players be intimidated to the point where they just stopped attacking the rim completely like they did in the world game. And that was no McD's game - the teams were playing to win, but the US basically just gave up attacking the rim by the end. It was pretty remarkable.

There are plenty of scorers, workhorse big men, etc. anywhere you look. But when a unique guy like this comes around that has all the tools to have such a profound effect on how the opposing offense has to approach its offense and play around the rim, IMO you take him, especially with a team like Cleveland's situation. I believe the guy is a great rebounder and game changer on the defensive end in the NBA right now, and really, is probably just as effective on the other end as Ibaka. As countintuitive as it may seem, I don't think he's actually a much less risky pick than a lot of big men.

I know I'm in the minute minority on this, but I think he's be a guy we'll look back on in a few years and say "Can you believe [X] took [average European big] over Byongo?"

IMO, the draft should go:

1) Irving
2) Kanter
3) Walker
4) Byongo
5) Williams
6 Knight
7-9) Leonard/Valenciunus/Vesley

[sporthenry]

Really, Kemba Walker? He's a fine player, but this must be a really weak draft if he goes #3. Personally I would take Brandon Knight in a heart beat over Kemba as far as pro potential goes.

Pro scouts and GM's get a bit scared by the word tweener, which is what William's essentially saying he is.

I would agree that people talking about Kemba that early is an indication of the draft's weakness but it also might show the NBA changing to drafting more on production than potential even though Knight's production was pretty good towards the end. Kemba just reminds me of a scoring PG who dominates college basketball but won't have the same success in the NBA. Players like Toney Douglas or Scottie Reynolds. While I think he is a better scorer than these guys I don't think he can keep up with Rose or Wall and he hasn't exactly proven to be a good facilitator. Douglas has carved out a nice niche in the league but I think Knight could be a starting PG at some point for a good team whereas Kemba can only be a rotation guy. And Kemba's did hit some clutch shots but if he is the guy with the ball in his hands at late game situations, I don't think your team is very good and I'd be surprised to see him have that success versus someone like Rose.

As far as Williams, he is pushing this idea of a 3 but does anyone see him covering LeBron James, Durant, Paul Pierce, or even Kobe? Chad Ford wasn't sold on his 3 shooting ability and the fact he only hit 42 3's should raise some concern. And the NBA 3 is back quite a bit back and I don't remember too many of his 3's not being close to the line. So I think he is a 4 but will be a bit small for that position both in height and strength at least at this point. He could prove a mismatch at the 4 b/c of his quickness and range but he will have to prove he can cover the 4 first. I guess time will tell but I think Irving is the safer pick for the GM even with all his questions and if they don't take him and he develops into what we think he could be, the GM is gone so that has to come into the equation. Meanwhile, if he drafts Irving and he fails, you aren't faulted nearly as much since everyone seems to agree KI should be 1.

[sporthenry]

There are plenty of scorers, workhorse big men, etc. anywhere you look. But when a unique guy like this comes around that has all the tools to have such a profound effect on how the opposing offense has to approach its offense and play around the rim, IMO you take him, especially with a team like Cleveland's situation. I believe the guy is a great rebounder and game changer on the defensive end in the NBA right now, and really, is probably just as effective on the other end as Ibaka. As countintuitive as it may seem, I don't think he's actually a much less risky pick than a lot of big men.


I agree and the more I read about Biyombo, the better he sounds. I agree that he seems like an Ibaka type player who many have been impressed with. He is someone who will probably be able to play whenever they bring him to the NBA b/c of his defensive game. And his offensive game will just get better and even if it never develops the offense, he is a guy who will either be able to cover the likes of Dirk, Durant, or even LeBron or at least provide a force at the rim.

Vesely and Valucianas are also good prospects as I think they could surpass Kanter but as you mention they have more questions b/c they are offensive players whose offense is still developing. Either way, if they took any of those 3, I think it would be the right move b/c Kanter will probably be better right away but Cleveland should be looking long term. I like Vesely's ability to play the 3/4 and he could be a mismatch waiting to happen but with big men seeming so few and far between (we'll see what the 2012 HS class has to offer), I'd take one of the bigs unless they really believe in Varejao since next year's bigs will be Sullinger and Anthony Davis.

And the best part is that if they draft one of those bigs along with the fact Kyrie hasn't played much, there will be a lot of growing pains which would almost guarantee another top 5 pick. That means next year you'd add another impact player like Rivers, Davis, Gilchrist, Barnes, Beal, Q. Miller, etc. So you give them a core of Irving, Rivers/Beal/Gilchrist, Biyombo/Vesely/Valucianas and add some pieces through FA, the trade exception, 2 expiring contracts, and getting some veterans to surround a young core and Cleveland's future looks pretty bright as opposed to 9 months ago.