The Mason Plumlee NBA Draft Vigil

[DukeHoopsGuru]

NBA Draft Express Twitter says Mason definitely returning.

http://twitter.com/draftexpress

[stillcrazie]

NBA Draft Express Twitter says Mason definitely returning.

http://twitter.com/draftexpress

Please, let it be so.

[OldSchool]

How cool would it be if we could find a team on our schedule next year against whom we could put the three brothers on the court at the same time, even if only for a few minutes---

"Plumlee passes to Plumlee coming off a screen from Plumlee and hits the shot!"

[Buckeye Devil]

He needs to return. He has a lot of upside but would have a lot of pine splinters in his rear end if he went to the NBA.

[dakkon74]

I think he would be crazy to go now. Is he even 1st round? I am surprised him leaving is even a topic.

[NYC Duke Fan]

I have not heard anything regarding the UNC trio. We read that Sullinger and the kid from Texas are coming back but not one rumor anout the 3 amigos from Chapel Hill.

[billyj]

How cool would it be if we could find a team on our schedule next year against whom we could put the three brothers on the court at the same time, even if only for a few minutes---

"Plumlee passes to Plumlee coming off a screen from Plumlee and hits the shot!"

:cool:I think the announcer will probably go shoot himself by the end of the game.

[rotogod00]

I think he would be crazy to go now. Is he even 1st round? I am surprised him leaving is even a topic.

He's #23 on Chad Ford's Top 100. Ford has also said that he is "leaning toward declaring for the draft"

[sporthenry]

I think this makes sense from everyone involved b/c Mason has actuall shown some development. I kinda felt that McBob left at the right time b/c I didn't really see him getting that much better at Duke, but Mason has already shown some work ethic with his development of some semblance of a post game. With one good summer, if he can make that little hook his go to move and either develop a second move or possibly a jump shot, than Mason can be a dominant player in the ACC and a certified lottery pick.

[Bluedog]

Chad Ford says Mason Plumlee is "Leaning Toward Declaring for NBA Draft" according to DukeUpdate's synopsis of his insider article:

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/draft2011/insider/columns/story?columnist=ford_chad&page=InOut-2011&action=login&appRedirect=http%3a%2f%2finsider.espn.go.com%2fnba %2fdraft2011%2finsider%2fcolumns%2fstory%3fcolumni st%3dford_chad%26page%3dInOut-2011

http://dukeupdate.com/


This contradicts what Draft Express said earlier:

"Duke fans: Rest easy. A good source tells us Mason Plumlee has decided to return to school. Won't even test the waters."

So, who knows if Chad Ford knows what he's talking about. I personally would be shocked if he declares. I don't think he's guaranteed to be a first round pick, but I guess neither was Shav and he left early.

Edit: Others are saying Ford's report is inaccurate....Sorry for bringing it up again.

[jnastasi]

chad ford is an idiot...the guy clearly has it out for duke and therefore i don't take much of what he says seriously

[lotusland]

How cool would it be if we could find a team on our schedule next year against whom we could put the three brothers on the court at the same time, even if only for a few minutes---

"Plumlee passes to Plumlee coming off a screen from Plumlee and hits the shot!"

Someone who knows Marshall really well said that he has point guard vision...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVfxvOT0jrM&feature=youtu.be

[FireOgilvie]

Have we heard anything either way? If he was definitely staying and leaving wasn't a very serious option, he would have said something. A reporter asked Marshall in the video posted on the front page (and the post above this one) if Mason was going pro, and his answer basically said he was going to support him either way, etc. It was so vague and the way he said it made me really concerned. Right now, I really think he's leaning towards going pro. Hopefully, he proves me wrong! I think he can make a huge jump up the charts with what I expect will be a breakout season this year.

[rotogod00]

chad ford is an idiot...the guy clearly has it out for duke and therefore i don't take much of what he says seriously

yeah, that's it. guess wouldn't shouldn't take him seriously when he saye kyrie's gonna be the top pick in the draft

[Kewlswim]

yeah, that's it. guess wouldn't shouldn't take him seriously when he saye kyrie's gonna be the top pick in the draft

Hi,

A broken clock is right twice a day too. Chad Ford could be an idiot and still make the right prediction about Kyrie. I could predict that someday California will have another earthquake and that New Orleans will experience another Katrina. Each of those predictions are easy to make. The key would be if I could tell you when--I can't. Chad knows enough to know Kyrie is most likely a top three pick. The top pick still has to do with who wins the lottery, their needs, and who else comes out, etc. Even then, Kyrie is still most likely the top pick. Chad is not really making a very bold statement.

GO DUKE!

[1991 duke law]

He needs to return. He has a lot of upside but would have a lot of pine splinters in his rear end if he went to the NBA.

Your golden retriever looks beautiful. Great dogs.

[rotogod00]

Hi,

A broken clock is right twice a day too. Chad Ford could be an idiot and still make the right prediction about Kyrie. I could predict that someday California will have another earthquake and that New Orleans will experience another Katrina. Each of those predictions are easy to make. The key would be if I could tell you when--I can't. Chad knows enough to know Kyrie is most likely a top three pick. The top pick still has to do with who wins the lottery, their needs, and who else comes out, etc. Even then, Kyrie is still most likely the top pick. Chad is not really making a very bold statement.

GO DUKE!

Of course. I just find it humorous how someone is automatically an idiot or anti-Duke if they have anything negative to say about a player or the program. Maybe sometimes, they're just right.

[J4Kop99]

If he doesn't come back... I honestly don't know how to finish this sentence without being banned from this website.


Let's just say if Mason leaves, there would be a completely different sentiment shown on this board compared to what's going on with the Kyrie situation... Even though he accomplished about 100X as much as Kyrie did.

[1991 duke law]

If he doesn't come back... I honestly don't know how to finish this sentence without being banned from this website.


Let's just say if Mason leaves, there would be a completely different sentiment shown on this board compared to what's going on with the Kyrie situation... Even though he accomplished about 100X as much as Kyrie did.

Notwithstanding that we all feel entitled to have a view on a kid's departure, my feelings are that while I want every kid to stay all four years I have no right to criticize a kid for leaving early (as contrasted to questioning whether his short or long term NBA success will be impacted by leaving prematurely). It is his life and he did not sign a contract stating that he will stay for four years. No broken contract and no broken promise. The fact that he is not going to be a high pick or the fact that he has not yet accomplished anything noteworthy in college does not diminish his right to leave as he sees fit.

That all being said, I will hang no banner for a kid that uses Duke as a quick entry into the NBA. If you want to be part of Duke folk lore, stay and earn that glory. Kyle is a perfect example. But I will not get angry at Mason or criticize him should he choose to leave. It is his life to lead and I cannot imagine that his decisions will be based on my intense desire for Duke basketball to be strong next year.

[lancepippin]

blue devil nation tweeted yesterday that once the season ended, they reported that mason would be back. draft express has also tweeted the same thing.

[superdave]

chad ford is an idiot...the guy clearly has it out for duke and therefore i don't take much of what he says seriously

Chad Ford simply reports what he hears from NBA scouts and GMs. He is not an idiot and does a pretty good job of ranking high school and college talent based on the insider discussion he hears.

I have also never seen any reason to believe he has it out for Duke or that his mental faculties are weak. I have been reading his Espn insider articles for a long time and he's a good source.

[Devilsfan]

I love the completely opposite opinions on his (Fords) mental faculties. At any rate we will know Plumlee's choice in less than three weeks and then the team can get on with preparations for 2011-2012.

[hq2]

Mason isn't ready yet. He needs a lot of work on his low post game and his free throw shooting. He can either get it at Duke, or in the NBDL. Which would you choose?

[Kewlswim]

Of course. I just find it humorous how someone is automatically an idiot or anti-Duke if they have anything negative to say about a player or the program. Maybe sometimes, they're just right.

Hi,

I have no idea if Chad Ford is an idiot or not. Actually, I don't really care (that is for others who feel the need to fret over). What I do care about is Duke and I am sad when kids who have no business leaving, leave. I don't put Kyrie or Elton in that group.

GO DUKE!

[Kedsy]

chad ford is an idiot...the guy clearly has it out for duke and therefore i don't take much of what he says seriously


Of course. I just find it humorous how someone is automatically an idiot or anti-Duke if they have anything negative to say about a player or the program. Maybe sometimes, they're just right.

What I don't get is how saying that Mason is leaning toward declaring (true or not) is anti-Duke. The information may or may not be accurate, but IMO Chad Ford's not saying anything about Duke one way or the other.

[DevilWearsPrada]

On 99.9 the fan radio sports station, on Thrusday, during the Adam Gold Show, one of the topics was the possibility of Mason Plumblee going into the draft.

During the segment, the sports announcers commented on the play of both Miles and Mason. Noting that both have had some flashes of great basketball, but not the level of an NBA player. And the discussion of Marshall coming into the mix was discussed as well.

During the segment, the talk of the 3 Zeller brothers was discussed. It was either Adam Gold or the other commentator that said, " ONE Tyler Zeller is better than 3 Plumblees." :rolleyes:

I don't know how they can say this. Duke beat Carolina 2 out of 3 times this season. And Duke completely dominated at the ACC tourney. All of the Tarhole games were close, with the exception of the final Duke Championship game. The Tarholes Should have lost to Miami on Friday.

When you live in North Carolina, and especially the Triangle, it (Unc and the Tarholes) are thrown down your throat, in your face and the Talk of everyone. And of course, almost every other car has Unc sticker on it. :p

Mason needs to stay at Duke and graduate!! And work on his skill set.

[cbnaylor]

I understand the whole potential thing. Obviously Jeff Capel staying for another year hurt him because by then, the NBA knew he wasn't NBA Material but I believe that Mason's case is a little different. I think he will get drafted if he stays another two years or not. The thing is, if he left now, I believe he would be in and out of the NBA within two years because he still has things that he needs to work on. That's why I believe staying is more important this time then potential.

[Buckeye Devil]

Your golden retriever looks beautiful. Great dogs.

Thanks. I wanted to name him Coach K but my family rebelled against me taking my Duke fanaticism that far.

[Fish80]

Of course. I just find it humorous how someone is automatically an idiot or anti-Duke if they have anything negative to say about a player or the program. Maybe sometimes, they're just right.

Mr Rotogodo,

Your logic is inherently fallacious. ;) I'll break it down for you:

anti-Duke = IDIOT
negative to say about a player = IDIOT
negative to say about the program = IDIOT

Respectfully,

Not-an-idiot

[TonyWR]

On 99.9 the fan radio sports station, on Thrusday, during the Adam Gold Show, one of the topics was the possibility of Mason Plumblee going into the draft.

During the segment, the sports announcers commented on the play of both Miles and Mason. Noting that both have had some flashes of great basketball, but not the level of an NBA player. And the discussion of Marshall coming into the mix was discussed as well.

During the segment, the talk of the 3 Zeller brothers was discussed. It was either Adam Gold or the other commentator that said, " ONE Tyler Zeller is better than 3 Plumblees." :rolleyes:

I don't know how they can say this. Duke beat Carolina 2 out of 3 times this season. And Duke completely dominated at the ACC tourney. All of the Tarhole games were close, with the exception of the final Duke Championship game. The Tarholes Should have lost to Miami on Friday.

When you live in North Carolina, and especially the Triangle, it (Unc and the Tarholes) are thrown down your throat, in your face and the Talk of everyone. And of course, almost every other car has Unc sticker on it. :p

Mason needs to stay at Duke and graduate!! And work on his skill set.


How true, most tarholes cant admit that Duke owned the ACC tournament, all they want to talk about is how their holes got one game further in the NCAAT than Duke. Their lack of class is disgusting but typical.

[Dr. Tina]

Mark Watson (Watzone) said on Twitter that he has no idea why people think Mason may put his name in the draft when it's already been said that he's returning. Of course, things could change, but I'll trust Watzone on this one.

[Class of '94]

How true, most tarholes cant admit that Duke owned the ACC tournament, all they want to talk about is how their holes got one game further in the NCAAT than Duke. Their lack of class is disgusting but typical.

And let's be real.....If some UNC fans want to hang their hats on UNC going one game further than duke (whoopee!!!), they need to remember that they don't get a ring for that or go into the history books for great accomplishments; and let's not forget, they beat a Marquette team that was a double digit seed and inferior to a very hot 5th seeded Arizona team.

[ChicagoHeel]

When you live in North Carolina, and especially the Triangle, it (Unc and the Tarholes) are thrown down your throat, in your face and the Talk of everyone. And of course, almost every other car has Unc sticker on it.

It is certainly ridiculous, and evidence that 'Tar Hole' is a perfect term to describe the fan base, that the majority of the people living in the state of North Carolina cheer for the University of North Carolina. Are you also annoyed to be living in the US and find so many people speaking English with an annoying American accent and flying American flags?

[davekay1971]

It is certainly ridiculous, and evidence that 'Tar Hole' is a perfect term to describe the fan base, that the majority of the people living in the state of North Carolina cheer for the University of North Carolina. Are you also annoyed to be living in the US and find so many people speaking English with an annoying American accent and flying American flags?

While I understand your overall point, you're not making an accurate comparison. There aren't several competing countries in the US with their own languages and flags. In the state of North Carolina, however, the lucky folks can pick from The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, UNC-Wilmington, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina State University, Davidson University, Wake Forest University, East Carolina University, etc,...or even that other school in Durham (sadly infested with yankees as it is). The annoyance, for us residents of this fine state who are not fans of UNC-CH, is that local media seem to forget that there are indeed teams playing basketball in North Carolina who don't wear pastel blue.

[Channing]

During the segment, the talk of the 3 Zeller brothers was discussed. It was either Adam Gold or the other commentator that said, " ONE Tyler Zeller is better than 3 Plumblees." :rolleyes:

I don't know how they can say this. Duke beat Carolina 2 out of 3 times this season. And Duke completely dominated at the ACC tourney. All of the Tarhole games were close, with the exception of the final Duke Championship game. The Tarholes Should have lost to Miami on Friday.

.
i am not sure what Duke beating unc has to do with the reality of the fact that T. Zeller has shown a much more refined offensive game than either Plumlee. Mason may have a higher ceiling, but at this point I would certainly say that TZ is better than either Mason or Miles, and frankly, its not that close. If either Mason or Miles developed Zeller's low post hook shot they would be an absolute force to be reckoned with.

[thewoosh31]

Thanks. I wanted to name him Coach K but my family rebelled against me taking my Duke fanaticism that far.

Thank goodness. Otherwise you'd have instances of where your family members would say, "Coach K left a little present in the living room." ;)

[Regenman]

I'd take Zeller over any current Duke big man (or two) in a heartbeat.

[DevilWearsPrada]

While I understand your overall point, you're not making an accurate comparison. There aren't several competing countries in the US with their own languages and flags. In the state of North Carolina, however, the lucky folks can pick from The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, UNC-Wilmington, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina State University, Davidson University, Wake Forest University, East Carolina University, etc,...or even that other school in Durham (sadly infested with yankees as it is). The annoyance, for us residents of this fine state who are not fans of UNC-CH, is that local media seem to forget that there are indeed teams playing basketball in North Carolina who don't wear pastel blue.

THANK YOU for saying that! On the Sports Radio in the Triangle, its Unc this and Unc that. It doesnt Matter if its Mens Basketball, Womens Basketball, Lacrosse, Football or PIng pong or Marbles.

When I was in Charlotte for the Mens ACC tourney, it was the same way. With the sports media, its all about the Little Boy Blue.

[DevilWearsPrada]

I'd take Zeller over any current Duke big man (or two) in a heartbeat.

Well, all three Plumlees will be at Duke this Fall, along with Ryan Kelly. The 3 Zeller brothers are enrolled in different schools, thank goodness. But TZ and John Henson are really dominate in the paint. :( Hopefully, MP1 MP2 and MP3 will get it going and rolling this Fall!

Aren't the Plumlees and the Zellers all from Indiana? They must eat alot of corn from TALL STALKS!

[captmojo]

Plumlee wanabes. Old time ball.

[House G]

Plumlee wanabes. Old time ball.

What a classic! Love those Hanson brothers.

[diveonthefloor]

While I understand your overall point, you're not making an accurate comparison. There aren't several competing countries in the US with their own languages and flags. In the state of North Carolina, however, the lucky folks can pick from The University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, UNC-Wilmington, UNC-Charlotte, North Carolina State University, Davidson University, Wake Forest University, East Carolina University, etc,...or even that other school in Durham (sadly infested with yankees as it is). The annoyance, for us residents of this fine state who are not fans of UNC-CH, is that local media seem to forget that there are indeed teams playing basketball in North Carolina who don't wear pastel blue.

I would love to see an enterprising investigative reporter analyze stats on the identity of the alma maters of the sports reporters and editors of the newspapers, radio stations, and tv stations in the triangle.

[JMarley50]

i am not sure what Duke beating unc has to do with the reality of the fact that T. Zeller has shown a much more refined offensive game than either Plumlee. Mason may have a higher ceiling, but at this point I would certainly say that TZ is better than either Mason or Miles, and frankly, its not that close. If either Mason or Miles developed Zeller's low post hook shot they would be an absolute force to be reckoned with.

I was reading through that thinking the same thing. The guy was comparing TZ to the Plumli not Duke vs UNC this year. I don't care which shade of blue you pull for, you have to admit TZ is much better right now.

[Bob Green]

Mason may have a higher ceiling, but at this point I would certainly say that TZ is better than either Mason or Miles, and frankly, its not that close.

Agreed! Tyler Zeller is consistent, which is one area where Miles and Mason need to improve. If either one (preferably both) develops consistency over the summer, the front court will be in great shape next season.

I'm a huge Plumlee fan and love that they are playing at Duke, but Tyler Zeller is the more talented ball player.

[Devilsfan]

The above post although true is borderline blasphamy.

[ChicagoHeel]

I would love to see an enterprising investigative reporter analyze stats on the identity of the alma maters of the sports reporters and editors of the newspapers, radio stations, and tv stations in the triangle.

You don't need an investigative reporter to unearth some sort of media-driven conspiracy theory. Just look at the market. UNC has 18,500+ undergrads vs. maybe 7,500 or so for Duke. Perhaps 85 percent of those students are from NC. More than half of UNC's almost 300,000 alumni live in the state of NC. Add family members to the alumni figures and you have a large market of UNC fans. And yes, there are lots of fine universities in North Carolina, but only one is the flagship university of North Carolina, which is why so many people who never go to UNC or even college still pull for their home team. So of course there is going to be lots of coverage of UNC, which is why I have never understood this line of grumbling from Duke fans.

[wk2109]

You don't need an investigative reporter to unearth some sort of media-driven conspiracy theory. Just look at the market. UNC has 18,500+ undergrads vs. maybe 7,500 or so for Duke. Perhaps 85 percent of those students are from NC. More than half of UNC's almost 300,000 alumni live in the state of NC. Add family members to the alumni figures and you have a large market of UNC fans. And yes, there are lots of fine universities in North Carolina, but only one is the flagship university of North Carolina, which is why so many people who never go to UNC or even college still pull for their home team. So of course there is going to be lots of coverage of UNC, which is why I have never understood this line of grumbling from Duke fans.

One thing I'm curious about: Do UNC fans care that so few of their team's players are actually from North Carolina?

[burns15]

The above post although true is borderline blasphamy.

Its either true or its blasphemy. It can't be both. They are not similar in meaning

[captmojo]

... More than half of UNC's almost 300,000 alumni live in the state of NC. Add family members to the alumni figures and you have a large market of UNC fans. And yes, there are lots of fine universities in North Carolina, but only one is the flagship university of North Carolina, which is why so many people who never go to UNC or even college still pull for their home team...

Oooh...this explains it. I get the picture. It's all clear to me now. I bow to this superior insight. :rolleyes:

Only one question remains, however. When exactly, did NC State University move out beyond our borders? :confused: I guess it must have been about the same time as more than half of all the alums took off, as well.

I answered my own question. So...nevermind.

[stillcrazie]

Oooh...this explains it. I get the picture. It's all clear to me now. I bow to this superior insight. :rolleyes:

Only one question remains, however. When exactly, did NC State University move out beyond our borders? :confused: I guess it must have been about the same time as more than half of all the alums took off, as well.

I answered my own question. So...nevermind.

In all fairness to ChicagoHeel, NC State takes a back seat to UNC when it comes to representing the state. The media knows its market and caters to it; it's that simple. It irritates me to hear the media bias, but I understand where it comes from and don't get too bent out of shape about it. The only guy who consistently annoyed me was Bomani Jones, who made his disdain for Duke obvious.

[MChambers]

I'm a huge Plumlee fan and love that they are playing at Duke, but Tyler Zeller is the more talented ball player.
I think this is debatable, but it really depends what you mean by talent. I'd say Zeller is the more skilled player, but I'd say Mason has more physical talent, at least in terms of running, jumping, and strength. No doubt, however, that at this point Zeller is the better player.

[Vincetaylor]

I think this is debatable, but it really depends what you mean by talent. I'd say Zeller is the more skilled player, but I'd say Mason has more physical talent, at least in terms of running, jumping, and strength. No doubt, however, that at this point Zeller is the better player.

Unfortunately, Zeller is much better than Mason right now. Not even debatable. Mason might be better in the pros, but that won't mean much for Duke next year(if he comes back). Mason might be more physically gifted, but not more talented.

[COYS]

Unfortunately, Zeller is much better than Mason right now. Not even debatable. Mason might be better in the pros, but that won't mean much for Duke next year(if he comes back). Mason might be more physically gifted, but not more talented.

This is true right now. However, there are two areas where Mason has been a bit better than Zeller. One is rebounding. Based almost entirely on natural ability and owing little to consistent positioning, box-out skills, etc, Mason's defensive rebounding rate was 24%, which was good for 48th in the entire nation and is an excellent number. With improved positioning and feel for the game, which should happen naturally, it is entirely possible that this number will improve next year making him one of the nation's premier rebounders (compare this to only 15.3% for Zeller). The other area is assist rate. In my opinion, Mason has very underrated court vision. His assist rate of 10.4% is very solid for a center/powerforward and I would not at all be surprised to see this rate increase next year, as well, as he will certainly receive a few more touches and play a more integral role in the offense. The flipside of this is that he absolutely must cut his turnover rate. However, if things "click" for him a little more next year, we could see him emerge as an elite rebounder (if he isn't, already) and one of the best play-making forwards in the ACC. Zeller will likely continue to average more points per game, but I expect Mason to be significantly better as a rebounder, shot blocker, and passer.

[FireOgilvie]

Zeller is also a year older than Mason. The numbers aren't directly comparable, but Zeller averaged 9.3 pts 4.6 rebounds as a sophomore last year. Mason had 7.2 pts and 8.4 rebounds this year. Also, Mason averaged more blocks and had a higher FG percentage than Zeller this year. I think Mason will average a double-double this year (or very close).

[captmojo]

In all fairness to ChicagoHeel, NC State takes a back seat to UNC when it comes to representing the state. The media knows its market and caters to it; it's that simple. It irritates me to hear the media bias, but I understand where it comes from and don't get too bent out of shape about it. The only guy who consistently annoyed me was Bomani Jones, who made his disdain for Duke obvious.

In all fairness to me, watch what happens if the worm turns and State starts winning again. The great unwashed will drop that baby blue, and colors at WalMart will turn red so fast...(make up your own metaphor) :cool:

[diveonthefloor]

You don't need an investigative reporter to unearth some sort of media-driven conspiracy theory.

If it is all the same to you, I'll stick to the conspiracy theory.

[sagegrouse]

Zeller is also a year older than Mason. The numbers aren't directly comparable, but Zeller averaged 9.3 pts 4.6 rebounds as a sophomore last year. Mason had 7.2 pts and 8.4 rebounds this year. Also, Mason averaged more blocks and had a higher FG percentage than Zeller this year. I think Mason will average a double-double this year (or very close).

Supple equals capability to score; demand equals need to score.

FWIW, Zeller HAD to be a major offensive force for UNC. Who else was there, especially early in the season, before Barnes became a threat? At Duke, the inside guys were not as essential, because Duke had the ACC's leading scorer and team leader Kyle Singler putting up nearly 40 points per game. Plus, there was Kyrie for awhile and some scoring from Seth and Andre. There was little need, unfortunately, to develop the Plumlees and Ryan as a focal point of the offense.

Next year will be a different story, and we will see how well Duke develops some inside scoring and how Mason, for example, compares with Tyler Z. In fact, this is one of the most interesting questions to ponder going into next season.

sagegrouse

[DBFAN]

I think it is important to note that Plumlee has never had more than a handful of games with a true point guard who knows naturally how to get the ball at the right time to a big man. Next season wll be different for him if he stays. Cook seems to be a pass first PG. Remember Mason was having a pretty good run in the first 8 games he had with Irving. I truly believe he will turn a lot of heads next season

[Seattledukie]

This is true right now. However, there are two areas where Mason has been a bit better than Zeller. One is rebounding. Based almost entirely on natural ability and owing little to consistent positioning, box-out skills, etc, Mason's defensive rebounding rate was 24%, which was good for 48th in the entire nation and is an excellent number. With improved positioning and feel for the game, which should happen naturally, it is entirely possible that this number will improve next year making him one of the nation's premier rebounders (compare this to only 15.3% for Zeller). The other area is assist rate. In my opinion, Mason has very underrated court vision. His assist rate of 10.4% is very solid for a center/powerforward and I would not at all be surprised to see this rate increase next year, as well, as he will certainly receive a few more touches and play a more integral role in the offense. The flipside of this is that he absolutely must cut his turnover rate. However, if things "click" for him a little more next year, we could see him emerge as an elite rebounder (if he isn't, already) and one of the best play-making forwards in the ACC. Zeller will likely continue to average more points per game, but I expect Mason to be significantly better as a rebounder, shot blocker, and passer.

Mason's turnovers mostly came either early in the season or when he tried to take the ball off the dribble late in the season. As the season went along and he had the ball in the paint he was solid.

[DukieinSoCal]

Unfortunately, Zeller is much better than Mason right now. Not even debatable. Mason might be better in the pros, but that won't mean much for Duke next year(if he comes back). Mason might be more physically gifted, but not more talented.

I totally agree. I don't even know why everyone is debating this other than the fact that Mason is our player and we're blindly devoted. Zeller consistently demonstrates a soft touch around the basket, hits a high percentage of open jumpers from 15 feet in, and knows how to get inside position for his baby hook. Mason doesn't do any of these things well yet. I sure hope he develops all these essential big man skills but I wonder how much he works on these aspects of his game. I've always gotten the impression that Mason thinks he's a wing player and wants to dribble, penetrate, make acrobatic shots, etc. Sadly, I fear he's a product of this generation, enamored with high-flying dunks and highlight reel plays rather than the simple, effective fundamentals of the game. I hope I'm wrong on that one. We'll see.

[tommy]

I totally agree. I don't even know why everyone is debating this other than the fact that Mason is our player and we're blindly devoted. Zeller consistently demonstrates a soft touch around the basket, hits a high percentage of open jumpers from 15 feet in, and knows how to get inside position for his baby hook. Mason doesn't do any of these things well yet.

You're right. That's really the thing with Mason. He has no touch. While he has difficulty freeing himself for makable shots within 10 feet of the basket, when he does free himself, he just doesn't make them. Reminds me of McRoberts in some ways in that respect.

The thing that bugs me about this is that developing touch is usually a product of just plain hard work. Shooting a lot of shots. Practice, practice, practice, until you get a feel for the shot and until that feel becomes ingrained. It concerns me to think that perhaps Mason doesn't work hard enough on this aspect of his game. I hope I'm wrong about it, but I fear I may not be.

[Newton_14]

You're right. That's really the thing with Mason. He has no touch. While he has difficulty freeing himself for makable shots within 10 feet of the basket, when he does free himself, he just doesn't make them. Reminds me of McRoberts in some ways in that respect.

The thing that bugs me about this is that developing touch is usually a product of just plain hard work. Shooting a lot of shots. Practice, practice, practice, until you get a feel for the shot and until that feel becomes ingrained. It concerns me to think that perhaps Mason doesn't work hard enough on this aspect of his game. I hope I'm wrong about it, but I fear I may not be.

Wow. Sorry, but I have to disagree with both of you guys. What Zeller has is a great shooting touch. He shoots it with the ease of a guard. That is a gift. A well honed gift for sure, but it's not like Zeller was born a terrible shooter and worked himself into a great one.

Zeller just has superior shooting skills compared to Mason. I think Mason can be become a good shooter, but he will never have the touch that Zeller has. Some things players are just born with.

And as has been commented on numerous times before, it is totally unfair to call out players for not working on a skill or not working in practice, etc. We do not see the practices and the summer work these kids put in. To suggest they are not good at something due to lack of work is a very unfair and unwarranted accusation, unless there is hard evidence (like a statement from a teammate or coach) to back it up. We have no idea what Mason works on. I would be willing to wager though, that all of the Duke players, Mason included work hard on all aspects of their game.

Mason and Tyler Z are totally different players for one thing. Tyler is a finesse big man with great offensive skill, but is not a great defender and not a great rebounder, but the guy can flat out score the basketball with ease.

Mason is a great rebounder, good shot blocker, and good defender. He struggles scoring the ball, but has made improvement and I expect will improve even more. He has great court vision, and is a good passer, especially for a big. He also has shown the ability to put the ball on the floor facing up and score or get fouled, especially from the baseline.


Mason is a work in progress, but is on track to becoming an impact player. It just takes longer with some kids, especially bigs. I just think it is unfair to suggest that Mason is a terrible player, and suggest that he does not work hard on his game.

[COYS]

Wow. Sorry, but I have to disagree with both of you guys. What Zeller has is a great shooting touch. He shoots it with the ease of a guard. That is a gift. A well honed gift for sure, but it's not like Zeller was born a terrible shooter and worked himself into a great one.

Zeller just has superior shooting skills compared to Mason. I think Mason can be become a good shooter, but he will never have the touch that Zeller has. Some things players are just born with.

And as has been commented on numerous times before, it is totally unfair to call out players for not working on a skill or not working in practice, etc. We do not see the practices and the summer work these kids put in. To suggest they are not good at something due to lack of work is a very unfair and unwarranted accusation, unless there is hard evidence (like a statement from a teammate or coach) to back it up. We have no idea what Mason works on. I would be willing to wager though, that all of the Duke players, Mason included work hard on all aspects of their game.

Mason and Tyler Z are totally different players for one thing. Tyler is a finesse big man with great offensive skill, but is not a great defender and not a great rebounder, but the guy can flat out score the basketball with ease.

Mason is a great rebounder, good shot blocker, and good defender. He struggles scoring the ball, but has made improvement and I expect will improve even more. He has great court vision, and is a good passer, especially for a big. He also has shown the ability to put the ball on the floor facing up and score or get fouled, especially from the baseline.


Mason is a work in progress, but is on track to becoming an impact player. It just takes longer with some kids, especially bigs. I just think it is unfair to suggest that Mason is a terrible player, and suggest that he does not work hard on his game.

Plus 1 for this post, Newton. Look, Zeller may be the better player, but the gap is not nearly as wide as some on this board seem to believe it to be. Zeller is the superior scorer. That is not debatable right now. However, Mason has the advantage in rebounding, defense (he improved tremendously as the season went on and will continue to get better), passing, and dribbling. Scoring is obviously extremely important in basketball, but it isn't everything. Quite frankly, if Mason improves his scoring numbers a bit, his FT% a lot, and continues a natural progression in the other areas, Mason may emerge as the more well rounded player as early as next season.

[uh_no]

Plus 1 for this post, Newton. Look, Zeller may be the better player, but the gap is not nearly as wide as some on this board seem to believe it to be. Zeller is the superior scorer. That is not debatable right now. However, Mason has the advantage in rebounding, defense (he improved tremendously as the season went on and will continue to get better), passing, and dribbling. Scoring is obviously extremely important in basketball, but it isn't everything. Quite frankly, if Mason improves his scoring numbers a bit, his FT% a lot, and continues a natural progression in the other areas, Mason may emerge as the more well rounded player as early as next season.

Zeller was *only* a rebound per game off mason. Now obviously that's fairly significant, but its not pacific ocean wide. Zeller on the other hand more than doubled mason's scoring output, 8 points a game is a large gap. Mason far outstrips zeller by an assist per game. I would hardly say mason is the better dribbler, though. Perhaps he dribbles MORE, but that isn't necessarily better. While turnovers aren't the most telling thing, he had 33% more turnovers (1.9-1.4) than zeller did.

Zeller is clearly a much better scorer, there's no denying that, but in my opinion, neither is worlds ahead of the other in any other stat category.

[phaedrus]

And as has been commented on numerous times before, it is totally unfair to call out players for not working on a skill or not working in practice, etc. We do not see the practices and the summer work these kids put in. To suggest they are not good at something due to lack of work is a very unfair and unwarranted accusation, unless there is hard evidence (like a statement from a teammate or coach) to back it up. We have no idea what Mason works on. I would be willing to wager though, that all of the Duke players, Mason included work hard on all aspects of their game.


Really? Would you wager that Tyler works hard on his post moves, and that Mason works hard on his 3-point shooting? Or do you think it's possible that different players pick different things to focus on, according to preference and need, and that maybe - just maybe - some players work harder than others?

I just don't see it as degrading to suggest that maybe Mason didn't specifically focus on his baby-hook and drop-step last summer. As you say, we fans generally don't know what it is our players devote their basketball work to. Often, we come to this forum to speculate on the unknown based on the games we've seen and the things we do know - and the speculation of some posters will inevitably vary from that of other posters.

I appreciate your defense of Mason, but I don't like when posters suggest that certain non-offensive topics of conversation are simply off-limits.

[Kedsy]

Zeller was *only* a rebound per game off mason. Now obviously that's fairly significant, but its not pacific ocean wide.

Well, first of all, Mason had 1.3 more rebounds per game, not 1.0, and that difference is something. Second, Zeller played 82 more minutes than Mason did. Mason's rebounds per 40 minutes (13.13) is 28% higher than Zeller's (10.24).

If you look at Pomeroy's breakdown, you can see Mason is only a little bit better at offensive rebounding than Zeller (Mason grabbed 11.1% of the available offensive boards vs. Zeller's 10.8%), but Mason is a vastly superior defensive rebounder than Zeller, snagging 24.0% of the available defensive rebounds, while Zeller only got 15.3%, a whopping 57% advantage for Mason, which if not "Pacific Ocean wide" is at least Atlantic.

[Newton_14]

Really? Would you wager that Tyler works hard on his post moves, and that Mason works hard on his 3-point shooting? Or do you think it's possible that different players pick different things to focus on, according to preference and need, and that maybe - just maybe - some players work harder than others?

I just don't see it as degrading to suggest that maybe Mason didn't specifically focus on his baby-hook and drop-step last summer. As you say, we fans generally don't know what it is our players devote their basketball work to. Often, we come to this forum to speculate on the unknown based on the games we've seen and the things we do know - and the speculation of some posters will inevitably vary from that of other posters.

I appreciate your defense of Mason, but I don't like when posters suggest that certain non-offensive topics of conversation are simply off-limits.

We can agree to disagree. I would defend any player when a fan suggests the player is not working on "X" or "Y" in practice or in their summer work. IMO it is an unfair allegation to make. It also suggests that the coaches are not having the player work on the correct skills.

As for Mason, it was stated by Jason Williams late in the season that Wojo and Mason had been working really hard in practice on the little baseline jumphook. So that much we know for sure was being worked on.

Constructive criticism is certainly fair for sure, I just find it incredibly unfair when a fan says something like "Mason is not working on his low post moves in practice", when we as fans do not attend the practices.

[ChicagoHeel]

I think it is important to note that Plumlee has never had more than a handful of games with a true point guard who knows naturally how to get the ball at the right time to a big man. Next season wll be different for him if he stays. Cook seems to be a pass first PG. Remember Mason was having a pretty good run in the first 8 games he had with Irving. I truly believe he will turn a lot of heads next season

This is a good point. A good distributor could make a huge difference for MP. Despite all the Zeller comparisons, I think Mason is more similar to Henson. Zeller has had a natural shooting touch and scoring ability from day 1. He just needed to gain some experience and learn the skill of shot selection to become a star. MP can get better, but will never have that touch. He reminds me of Henson in that, to date, Henson is not someone you can dump the ball into and have him consistently create a good shot on his own. Henson gets a lot of points through put-backs and plays largely set up by Marshall's passing or penetration. It is his athleticism that generates the baskets. I want MP to go pro because even though I will never fear his jump shot, I think he has an upside that i would prefer to see realized in NBA.

[Wander]

This is a good point. A good distributor could make a huge difference for MP.

Careful. Quinn Cook is not Kyrie Irving. In fact, I consider Kyrie making Mason look like a good scorer one of his more impressive accomplishments.

Good call on the Mason/Henson thing, though. I can see Mason as a poor man's Henson. Tall NBA draft picks who rely on their outstanding physical talents, block shots, are great rebounders, terrible shooters, and make too many boneheaded plays. At any rate, they're a lot more similar than Mason and Zeller are.

[uh_no]

Well, first of all, Mason had 1.3 more rebounds per game, not 1.0, and that difference is something. Second, Zeller played 82 more minutes than Mason did. Mason's rebounds per 40 minutes (13.13) is 28% higher than Zeller's (10.24).

If you look at Pomeroy's breakdown, you can see Mason is only a little bit better at offensive rebounding than Zeller (Mason grabbed 11.1% of the available offensive boards vs. Zeller's 10.8%), but Mason is a vastly superior defensive rebounder than Zeller, snagging 24.0% of the available defensive rebounds, while Zeller only got 15.3%, a whopping 57% advantage for Mason, which if not "Pacific Ocean wide" is at least Atlantic.

Fair enough. I take the Zoubek argument here: a player can't be productive when he's not in the game, so I really don't put as much stock into per 40 minutes stats. That said, you are of course right he's better at defensive rebounding by a very large margin when playing the same amount of time. On the same breath, though, his points and turnovers look even WORSE than they did before relative to zeller.

Again, those numbers don't mean a thing anyway unless he can keep himself out of trouble and on the floor. Zoubek figured this out and we all know what happened.

[verga]

with Mason is his inability to put the ball in the basket. He has no go to moves and if he does we have not seen them. I have mentioned in earlier post's that Mason was attending a "Big Man" camp in Chicago in early summer last year (2010). After i read about his presence at the camp, i was happy to see him at the Pro Am at NC Central in early July. When i saw him i started to wonder when he would show me his new found offensive moves, well that never happened. He began the session as he had the previous year, dribbling the ball, taking outside shots, nothing had changed. Mason has a couple of things he does well, he is a good jumper and he runs the court fairly well but Mason is not quick, Miles is quick. Mason is not that good of a defensive player, yes he blocks some shots but he also leaves his feet when the opponent uses a pump fake on him. His ability to hit the 10 or 15 foot shot is missing as well. So we have a player that everyone, including myself thinks will be really good but when? I'm going to give him another year to hopefully enhance his game and make a name for himself. I think when we as fans look at these kids we get carried away sometimes both for the good and bad. What i'm concerned about as a fan is will my team (Duke) win games and which players will help us do that? Mason so far has not lived up to the standard that we as fans have put on him, perhaps we have expected to much of him, if we have then we will have to live with what we have.

[OZ]

with Mason is his inability to put the ball in the basket. He has no go to moves and if he does we have not seen them. I have mentioned in earlier post's that Mason was attending a "Big Man" camp in Chicago in early summer last year (2010). After i read about his presence at the camp, i was happy to see him at the Pro Am at NC Central in early July. When i saw him i started to wonder when he would show me his new found offensive moves, well that never happened. He began the session as he had the previous year, dribbling the ball, taking outside shots, nothing had changed. Mason has a couple of things he does well, he is a good jumper and he runs the court fairly well but Mason is not quick, Miles is quick. Mason is not that good of a defensive player, yes he blocks some shots but he also leaves his feet when the opponent uses a pump fake on him. His ability to hit the 10 or 15 foot shot is missing as well. So we have a player that everyone, including myself thinks will be really good but when? I'm going to give him another year to hopefully enhance his game and make a name for himself. I think when we as fans look at these kids we get carried away sometimes both for the good and bad. What i'm concerned about as a fan is will my team (Duke) win games and which players will help us do that? Mason so far has not lived up to the standard that we as fans have put on him, perhaps we have expected to much of him, if we have then we will have to live with what we have.

Personally, I am willing to give him two more years.

[Saratoga2]

Personally, I am willing to give him two more years.

Yes, but while other teams have key talent returning, we are still sweating out whether Mason will return for another season. The faults listed by others should not obscure the fact that Mason is the best big man on the Duke roster at this time.

[airowe]

Yes, but while other teams have key talent returning, we are still sweating out whether Mason will return for another season. The faults listed by others should not obscure the fact that Mason is the best big man on the Duke roster at this time.

You're not sweating whether Mason returns for the 2012 season still, right? He's definitely coming back.

[roywhite]

You're not sweating whether Mason returns for the 2012 season still, right? He's definitely coming back.

Thanks, airowe.

That has been my impression, yet I've seen this thread grow...wasn't sure what it was about.

[rotogod00]

Thanks, airowe.

That has been my impression, yet I've seen this thread grow...wasn't sure what it was about.

It's due to the fact that Chad Ford (for one) still has him in the group of "Players leaning toward declaring for the draft" (as of April 11, 2011, 5:57 PM ET)

[roywhite]

It's due to the fact that Chad Ford (for one) still has him in the group of "Players leaning toward declaring for the draft" (as of April 11, 2011, 5:57 PM ET)

I don't have a hard time choosing whom to believe here.

Airowe has Duke contacts and a good track record.

[johnb]

If Mason is definitely coming back, why doesn't he say so?

Since Mason was our most talented big man this past year, why are we finding fault with him? I'm much more content with finding fault with the coaches at U Conn and KY, slightly more content with finding fault with Carolina players (though it gets complicated when one has a sister who is playing for us), and uncomfortable when nitpicking over the ways in which our best interior player doesn't have a reliable 15 foot jump shot or in assertions about PT for players most of us have never seen play in a genuinely predictive game, much less practices and games that don't begin until next fall.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

Zeller was *only* a rebound per game off mason. Now obviously that's fairly significant, but its not pacific ocean wide. Zeller on the other hand more than doubled mason's scoring output, 8 points a game is a large gap. Mason far outstrips zeller by an assist per game. I would hardly say mason is the better dribbler, though. Perhaps he dribbles MORE, but that isn't necessarily better. While turnovers aren't the most telling thing, he had 33% more turnovers (1.9-1.4) than zeller did.

Zeller is clearly a much better scorer, there's no denying that, but in my opinion, neither is worlds ahead of the other in any other stat category.

Zeller scores more yes BUT he also plays more. Also unc ran their offense through the bigs and we ran ours through the guards giving Zeller more oppurtunities to score. I would like to know how many times a game Zeller touched the ball inside compared to Mason.

[gumbomoop]

If Mason is definitely coming back, why doesn't he say so?

I may be in a minority of one here, but if Mason has decided to stay, I'd just as soon he not have a press conference to announce it. No Skype/Tweet stuff, either. Preferably no announcement whatsoever, from him, his family, his brothers, Nolan, Kyrie, GoDuke, the Honorable Mods, nobody. I'd prefer that he simply let pass the deadline to declare for the draft.

This would have 2 advantages: (1) It would show some extra good sense on Mason's part. In effect, he'd be saying, "Yeah, I know there's talk about me and the NBA, but I think I need to improve some first. And Miles and I are gonna beat the crap out of Marshall in practice. Some things are more important than money." (2) It would drive many DBR posters crazy, metaphorically speaking. Which we, including me, deserve, as Obsessed Nut Cases. Gotta see the humor in this.

Though I suppose that, even in this scenario, i.e., absolute silence, we'll have a new thread asking, "What does it mean that the NBA deadline has passed, and Mason hasn't said anything yet? He's not transferring, is he?"

[DukeUsul]

Jeff Goodman of Fox lists Mason as having said that he'll be back.

http://jeffgoodman.yardbarker.com/blog/jeffgoodman/nba_draft_early_entry_watch_list/4552755

[Kedsy]

Jeff Goodman of Fox lists Mason as having said that he'll be back.

http://jeffgoodman.yardbarker.com/blog/jeffgoodman/nba_draft_early_entry_watch_list/4552755

Yeah, but he also has Kyrie on there as having signed with an agent, and we all know that's not true.

[cbnaylor]

Well I'm taking it like this, no news is good news. :)

[magjayran]

Zeller scores more yes BUT he also plays more. Also unc ran their offense through the bigs and we ran ours through the guards giving Zeller more oppurtunities to score. I would like to know how many times a game Zeller touched the ball inside compared to Mason.

Of course UNC ran their offense through Zeller because they could trust that he would do something good with it. That jump hook thing that Zeller does is pretty special. He turns with it quickly and he has a soft touch so it goes in even if it catches rim. Mason's little hook shot move is sort of almost there. Whenever he goes to it I sort of hold my breath because I know he can convert it....sometimes but he often doesn't.

I love the Plumlees. They are our guys and they do some very good things. They just aren't quite Zeller level and that's ok. I'm sure UNC fans like their Dexter Strickland even if he's no Nolan Smith.

[UrinalCake]

I disagree with the notion that UNC ran their offense through Zeller. I didn't watch very many of their games, but there was frequent complaining among UNC fans that Zeller didn't get the ball enough. They would just sort of forget about him for long stretches. He's a really efficient scorer, but doesn't take a lot of shots. Not trying to knock him because I really like him as a player, but just wanted to raise the point that he was not the focal point of their offense, he was more like one really important building block.

[sagegrouse]

I disagree with the notion that UNC ran their offense through Zeller. I didn't watch very many of their games, but there was frequent complaining among UNC fans that Zeller didn't get the ball enough. They would just sort of forget about him for long stretches. He's a really efficient scorer, but doesn't take a lot of shots. Not trying to knock him because I really like him as a player, but just wanted to raise the point that he was not the focal point of their offense, he was more like one really important building block.

Well, Duke clearly ran its offense through (a) Nolan (who usually had the ball) and (b) Kyle.

Then who the heck did North Carolina run the offense through? I watched the Heels a lot, and while Barnes was effective the last half of the season, he still did a lot of standing around. Marshall would drive and dish to Zeller or Henson. The preferred defense was to make him shoot by defending the pass. And no one else for the Tar Heels was a consistent shooter, much less scorer. None of the guards averaged more than 7.5 per game.

UNC's scoring came primarily from inside: Zeller, Barnes, Henson, and Knox scored 61.5% of the Heels' points. Comparable figures for Duke (bigs plus Kyle) are 45%. Omitting both Barnes and Singler makes the comparison even starker -- 41% inside scoring for UNC vs. 24% for Duke.

I sound like a broken record (do they still make those vinyl things?), but when Duke emphasizes the inside game more, Mason and Ryan (and Miles) are gonna score a lot more. The question is, how efficient will they be.

sagegrouse

[OldPhiKap]

BTTT -- this thread is mentioned in today's SI article (Duke preview)