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Zeke
07-02-2007, 07:18 PM
You people in Durham who have inside knowledge of these things, please tell me how Bryan is doing. He's going to be very important to Duke BB for the next few years.

4decadedukie
07-03-2007, 04:51 AM
Zeke - Thanks for posting this question, I simply couldn't agree more and I, too, will eagerly await information.

bhd28
07-03-2007, 09:24 AM
It is hard to say. I watched pickup games the last two nights. BZ is so much bigger than anyone else, that he gets great position a lot (Lance has guarded him every game). That said, he still doesn't go Josh on the rim at all. I think he had one dunk in two nights, and it was with nobody within 5 feet of him. He definitely needs to go up stronger. That said, whenever he got the ball one-on-one down low, he was fouled about 70% of the time... not like him calling 'I got fouled,' but like Lance or Demarcus (usually the latter) just grabbing his arm or body or fouling him hard to restart play. His footwork seemed much better (though I am no expert on footwork for big men... I mainly watched to see whether he would walk and whether he pivoted smoothly and to the appropriate side), but he fouled more than blocked shots on Defense, and he doesn't show much power in his game. Lots of tip-put-backs, etc. He also had his shot blocked about 4 times by Demarcus coming over to help behind Lance. The guy had to be frustrated both nights by the constant fouling. If it was me, I would drop a hard foul or two back on someone by the end of the night. Though BZ was obviously frustrated by the fouling, he didn't. If the season started today, he wouldn't be in the starting lineup. It doesn't, though, so there is a lot of time. That said, Lance has improved his shot a lot (though it still seems to have a bit of side spin), and I cannot really see any other bigs than Kyle and Lance starting. Hopefully BZ will prove me wrong.

JasonEvans
07-03-2007, 10:43 AM
I watched pickup games the last two nights.

DUDE!!! We need more info! Tell us about the freshmen and tell us more about what you saw from the vets.

--Jason "actual basketball news in July... stunning!!" Evans

VaDukie
07-03-2007, 11:27 AM
It is hard to say. I watched pickup games the last two nights. BZ is so much bigger than anyone else, that he gets great position a lot (Lance has guarded him every game). That said, he still doesn't go Josh on the rim at all. I think he had one dunk in two nights, and it was with nobody within 5 feet of him. He definitely needs to go up stronger. That said, whenever he got the ball one-on-one down low, he was fouled about 70% of the time... not like him calling 'I got fouled,' but like Lance or Demarcus (usually the latter) just grabbing his arm or body or fouling him hard to restart play. His footwork seemed much better (though I am no expert on footwork for big men... I mainly watched to see whether he would walk and whether he pivoted smoothly and to the appropriate side), but he fouled more than blocked shots on Defense, and he doesn't show much power in his game. Lots of tip-put-backs, etc. He also had his shot blocked about 4 times by Demarcus coming over to help behind Lance. The guy had to be frustrated both nights by the constant fouling. If it was me, I would drop a hard foul or two back on someone by the end of the night. Though BZ was obviously frustrated by the fouling, he didn't. If the season started today, he wouldn't be in the starting lineup. It doesn't, though, so there is a lot of time. That said, Lance has improved his shot a lot (though it still seems to have a bit of side spin), and I cannot really see any other bigs than Kyle and Lance starting. Hopefully BZ will prove me wrong.

Are pickup games open to the public to watch?

pratt '04
07-03-2007, 11:32 AM
I will post more in a couple days as I'm about to head out of town, but wanted to chime in briefly as I've also seen the guys play pickup the past several nights.

Taylor King's shooting is ridiculous. He was able to take over several of the pickup games nailing 3 after 3. And he is a gunner... he will shoot from ANYWHERE with defenders all over him. And no one can block his shot because a) he's tall, and more importantly b) his release is lightning quick. Last night he hit a fade-away three from a step behind NBA range that had my jaw on the floor.

I was not expecting King to play much this season, but with shooting like that, he will absolutely find some minutes.

bhd28
07-03-2007, 12:19 PM
Are pickup games open to the public to watch?

Yep, open. I think they play tonight as well (9pm or just after), but I won't be able to go. I also posted in the 'starters' poll thread on pg. 4

http://dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2315&page=4

with a few comments on the freshmen. To sum it up, as mentioned by pratt04, Taylor King is a scary shooter. He has been the best shooter on the floor both nights... better than Greg last night and JJ on Sunday (that said, it is scary in a bad way when he puts the ball on the floor). Nolan Smith is crazy skinny, but he is very quick and was driving on Nelson basically at will. Singler didn't play as well last night, but he was great Sunday, has a very heady game, is fundamentally sound, has great post moves (spins, fakes, etc...), and plays hard all the time. Hopefully he can improve his explosiveness some while here (leg strength), but he is pretty quick and will be a great player. Should start day 1 IMHO, as he will add so much in so many areas. He seems to be in the right place at the right time a lot.

jimsumner
07-03-2007, 01:16 PM
We all love to read the pick-up reports but many of us approach them with a certain level of skepticism, having read breathless accounts of how this was the year that Taymon Domzalski, Casey Sanders, Nick Horvath, Shavik Randolph, Sean Dockery or your favorite player to be named later was just dominating and was poised to rocket the top of the charts.

I suspect that whatever Brian Zoubek has or has not been doing won't become manifest during pick-up games. Not to say that summer isn't important. On the contrary, many players have come out of a summer a lot more talented than they were when they went into the summer. But much of that work is grunt and grind work, behind closed doors, with the benefits becoming apparent over a long period of time.

ACCBBallFan
07-03-2007, 01:22 PM
Taylor King's shooting is ridiculous. He was able to take over several of the pickup games nailing 3 after 3. And he is a gunner... he will shoot from ANYWHERE with defenders all over him. And no one can block his shot because a) he's tall, and more importantly b) his release is lightning quick. Last night he hit a fade-away three from a step behind NBA range that had my jaw on the floor.

I was not expecting King to play much this season, but with shooting like that, he will absolutely find some minutes.
I realize one needs to take this pick up game optimism with a grain of salt, but the more I hear about the evenness of the players, the more I think K may do what he did on Team USA and alternate Blue and White teams, not necessarily with equal PT.

Even here, having trouble figuring out who the 11th guy would be unless coach K gets totally impatient with Zoubek.

If it were not for his experience and knack for getting things done, I might think McClure who could fill in on either team whose player was unavailable due to injury of fouls.

Initially I was thinking King but if his shot is that quick and good, and if his defense is not horrendous, he may get the pass JJ got his freshman year.

Whichever team Zoubek is on needs good entry passers. Marty seems to have the look to the post attitude and maybe Nolan and King will. No one on last year's team who played, except Josh, seemed to know how and when to throw an entry pass.

As much as K likes to have Paulus and/or Scheyer on the floor, and for reasons others have cited, it might make sense to start Henderson with Paulus and pair Scheyer with Smith,

Paulus-Henderson-Nelson-Singler-Lance

Smith-Scheyer-Pocius-[2 of McClure-Zoubek-King, might vary depending on the opponent]

Toward the end of the season, when he shortens his rotation, the nucleus would be Paulus-Scheyer-Henderson-Nelson-Singler, plus whichever other person for 6-man rotation (or 2 or 3 persons for 7-8) has played best over the course of the season to date.

johnb
07-03-2007, 01:35 PM
I don't think he's ever platooned Duke teams. I think he'd say that his 1-3 players are substantially better than players 8-10, that they're 21 years old, and the starters should be able to play hard for 30 minutes. Just because it's hard to predict who is going to be 1-3 or 8-10 doesn't mean things won't shake out after a month of practice. That's a bit different from taking players from the top 10% of the NBA; most of them are similar in terms of skillset.

Mcluhan
07-03-2007, 01:37 PM
It's a tradition: Every summer we Duke fans get all excited about how unbelievably deep we are, based on pickup reports, high school reps and the projected imprvement of returning players, only to have those hopes dashed by K come fall.

In part, it's because our three bases (pickups, HS reps, and projected improvement) are inaccurate. In part, it's because K apparently doesn't believe in developing depth over the course of the season, and would prefer a militant live and die by the starters ethos.

I'm not saying he doesn't substitute; he's a basketball coach after all. But over the last ten years or so he seems more and more reluctant to cultivate and improve players in game situations.

VaDukie
07-03-2007, 02:21 PM
It's a tradition: Every summer we Duke fans get all excited about how unbelievably deep we are, based on pickup reports, high school reps and the projected imprvement of returning players, only to have those hopes dashed by K come fall.

In part, it's because our three bases (pickups, HS reps, and projected improvement) are inaccurate. In part, it's because K apparently doesn't believe in developing depth over the course of the season, and would prefer a militant live and die by the starters ethos.

I'm not saying he doesn't substitute; he's a basketball coach after all. But over the last ten years or so he seems more and more reluctant to cultivate and improve players in game situations.

I think 1998 and 2003 showed that when we've had depth we've used it. We went through several years where we had 1 man recruiting classes (Maggette, Duhon, Deng, Ewing) and that coupled with early defections meant we've often had teams that were only 6-7 deep.

I know criticizing K about depth is one of the pillars of this board, but at least for this year I'm optimistic we'll have it and use it.

Mcluhan
07-03-2007, 02:50 PM
I think 1998 and 2003 showed that when we've had depth we've used it. We went through several years where we had 1 man recruiting classes (Maggette, Duhon, Deng, Ewing) and that coupled with early defections meant we've often had teams that were only 6-7 deep.

I know criticizing K about depth is one of the pillars of this board, but at least for this year I'm optimistic we'll have it and use it.

Let's hope so. There always seems to be a guy who, whatever his current deficiencies, would improve with more game experience, and when the chess matches really begin in the tournament, with foul trouble, injuries, etc., we'll be saved by a Thomas Hill type frosh (because he got Thomas Hill type frosh minutes).

I've also wondered why K doesn't seem to realize we're blowing out the other team until maybe the 39th minute. Then, maybe, he puts in a few bench guys.

Bob Green
07-03-2007, 05:51 PM
We all love to read the pick-up reports but many of us approach them with a certain level of skepticism, having read breathless accounts of how this was the year that Taymon Domzalski, Casey Sanders, Nick Horvath, Shavik Randolph, Sean Dockery or your favorite player to be named later was just dominating and was poised to rocket the top of the charts.

I suspect that whatever Brian Zoubek has or has not been doing won't become manifest during pick-up games. Not to say that summer isn't important. On the contrary, many players have come out of a summer a lot more talented than they were when they went into the summer. But much of that work is grunt and grind work, behind closed doors, with the benefits becoming apparent over a long period of time.

Jim,

Shame on you! Introducing reality in July is uncalled for. :)

Bob Green
Yokosuka, Japan

Battery
07-04-2007, 11:40 AM
Zou has put on size. I'm not sure about strength..its pick-up so i'm not sure if he's getting as physical as he needs to be.

grossbus
07-04-2007, 09:14 PM
"We all love to read the pick-up reports but many of us approach them with a certain level of skepticism"

AMEN!

watzone
07-05-2007, 09:10 AM
Some reports are better than others ... refined over time;)


We all love to read the pick-up reports but many of us approach them with a certain level of skepticism, having read breathless accounts of how this was the year that Taymon Domzalski, Casey Sanders, Nick Horvath, Shavik Randolph, Sean Dockery or your favorite player to be named later was just dominating and was poised to rocket the top of the charts.

I suspect that whatever Brian Zoubek has or has not been doing won't become manifest during pick-up games. Not to say that summer isn't important. On the contrary, many players have come out of a summer a lot more talented than they were when they went into the summer. But much of that work is grunt and grind work, behind closed doors, with the benefits becoming apparent over a long period of time.

grossbus
07-05-2007, 02:03 PM
"Some reports are better than others ... refined over time"

perhaps true, but the overall abundance of enthusiasm leads to unfortunate, overly positive commentary. it has come to this: the more enthusiastic the pickup report praise, the more i lower my expectations.

Olympic Fan
07-06-2007, 10:02 AM
I got to see Monday night's pickup games, so keep in mind that the following is based on one night's viewing:

-- Zoubek has reshaped his body a great deal. He's much more muscular LOOKING, although playing against so many swarming little guys, it's hard to tell how much stronger he is. There must have been a dictate from the coaches about getting him the ball down low, because in the games I saw, he was fed the ball over and over. He was very aggressive, but because of the hacking and grabbing, had a hard time finishing. He seemed to be in very good shape -- he got up and down the court at full speed with little effort.

-- The fastest fullcourt player was Singler, who consistently beat everybody else down the court. Almost all his scoring came from running the break. He was also a very solid defender and a good rebounder, but I was disappointed that he never looked for his shot in the halfcourt. Again, except for the break, he was the most unaggressive offensive player on the floor. It may have had something to do with a foot injury -- he cut his foot running on a beach -- that had him sidelined for a while. Still, the injury didn't seem to hurt him in transition.

-- Nolan Smith was the best player on the floor -- for the first 10 minutes, then his effectiveness dropped off rapidly. It's funny -- he's built a lot like Johnny Dawkins and Dawkins could run forever, but of all the players on the court, Smith seemed the struggle the most with fatigue. That early show was spectacular -- on the first possession of the game, he hit a contested 3 ... on the second, he took the ball 90 feet in transition, exploding past a couple of defenders at the basket to finish with a thunderous slam dunk ... then he sliced through the defense in halfcourt to finish with another slam. He also had a nice mid-range jumper -- the ability to start a drive and go up in traffic and make the 15-footer. Since he jumps so high, he can get it off against anybody. It will be interesting to see his game when Johnny D gets him in shape.

-- Taylor King is indeed a ridiculous shooter, but that overshadows the rest of his game. He's tough inside, who uses his long arms to rebound well. He also displayed an mid-range jumper although he seemed to drive, initiate contact with his defender, then bounce off and into his quick pullup shot. It will be interesting to see how that's called. BTW, I counted King as 6-for-15 on 3s Monday night -- he's a streaky shooter ... he was 6-of-11 and missed his last four. I did notice that right after he hit a fallaway 3 from the corner, he filled a wing on the break and, like JJ used to do, he ran for his favorite 3-point spot and was begging for the ball. He looked POed when he didn't get it.

As for the other returnees -- I didn't see any physical change in Lance, he's as slender as ever. He did look a lot more aggressive offensively -- even making a 3-pointer and a couple of mid-range jumpers; Paulus was superb, totally under control and continuing his deadly shooting (I had him at 8-of-12 3-pointers); Nelson looked much the same as he always does; McClure also looked much the same; Marty looked very aggressive offensively, but wasn't particularly effective; Henderson didn't play.

That's what I saw ... just keep in mind it's based on one night's viewing. Jim's right -- it's easy to read too much into pickup games. But it's something to fill a July night.

mapei
07-06-2007, 11:26 AM
Nice report. Thanks!

greybeard
07-06-2007, 11:35 AM
I noticed in one or possibly two of the pictures, Zoubek standing with his knees locked back. Many tall thin people do that. It is a balance thing. Only, while it "feels" more secure, it isn't. Not only is a locked-back knee stance woefully unstable, it is also impossible to move from that stance without first readjusting. Impossible. So, if you notice Zoubek standing that way, I'd say he needs to get himself to an Iyengar yoga teacher pronto; or a PT who will work with him on trampolean, balance board, standing one footed, knee bent in various degrees, and do other things to improve his standing at rest position. It will make him oh so much stronger, faster, more explosive, if my reading of that picture is actually telling. Anyway, check it out if you are in the gym. Then, if you got the nerve . . . .

bhd28
07-06-2007, 11:44 AM
Olympic, thanks for the report. I thought it was very accurate. I will say, for Kyle, that he looked MUCH better Sunday vs. Monday. On Sunday, he called for and got the ball, made a couple of mid-range jumpers, one-3 from the corner, and drove on T.King several times, using spins and pumps effectively to get off his shot. He set screens a number of times for the PG, and used the 'roll' or 'pop' effectively from it. He also crashed the boards much more on the offensive end and got several boards for his effort. That said, he didn't put them back that effectively, with BZ and T.King (who has long arms) effectively blocking his shot a couple of times. That said, unlike several players on the team, Kyle didn't call many fouls on 'minor' contact. A couple of his misses could probably have been considered fouls.

whereinthehellami
07-06-2007, 12:43 PM
I know that we are loaded with talent and experience at the guard positions but Smith has a really balanced game. He has decent size, good speed, good hops, a good bball IQ, and some decent experience playing for a loaded HS team that played other tough HS teams. I don't see Smith starting at all this year but I like the thought of a long, speedy penetrator who plays good defense.

SilkyJ
07-11-2007, 11:29 AM
Why is it that we always seem to break that bone??? What the heck is going on?!?

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=1087696

At least we are realllly good at treating it. Since he has already added weight to his frame, I wonder whether that will affect his rehab/recovery time. 8-10 weeks has him back on the court in September, so shouldn't affect his development too much...right???

Capn Poptart
07-11-2007, 11:44 AM
This is bad. We need him in triathlon-quality shape this year.

At least it didn't happen in September or later.

mapei
07-11-2007, 11:45 AM
Duke basketball has to have a disproportionate number of significant foot injuries. :(

Lord Ash
07-11-2007, 11:48 AM
Wow wow wow.

That is really really bad.

So much for developing over the summer.

:confused:

Patrick Yates
07-11-2007, 11:49 AM
This is devastating to any real post-season goals. GP had a similiar injury last year (foot) and every on the board claims that was the root of his problems last year.

BZ, in addition to the weightroom work, needed reps in practice more than anything. No player needed to simply play, more than he did. His footwork was what hurt him the most last year, and now it is the one thing he cannot work on. Just awful for the team. We can still be good this year, but I think any talk of BZ being ready to be a significant force this year just ended, along with any realistic talk of the FF.

Patrick Yates

4decadedukie
07-11-2007, 12:01 PM
:( - sometimes, a picture is worth a thousand words.

ato3
07-11-2007, 12:04 PM
nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

hondoheel
07-11-2007, 12:05 PM
I don't think he was going to play much anyway.

markbdevil
07-11-2007, 12:06 PM
It has to be the shoes, time to switch from Nike to something else!

captmojo
07-11-2007, 12:06 PM
is it the fifth metatarsal or a d%*n 17 point lead? Which is worse?

Zeb
07-11-2007, 12:13 PM
Boozer, Paulus, Brand, Zoubek have all broken their foot... am I missing someone?

FreezingDevil
07-11-2007, 12:19 PM
Does anyone know how exactly you get such an injury? Do you roll your foot or come down too hard on that side? This injury seems to be so common with basketball players it makes me think it must be a matter of weight and massive shoe size. Zoubs, if you hadnt already noticed, has a slightly bigger shoe size than the average man.

AKG
07-11-2007, 12:34 PM
This is devastating to any real post-season goals. GP had a similiar injury last year (foot) and every on the board claims that was the root of his problems last year.

BZ, in addition to the weightroom work, needed reps in practice more than anything. No player needed to simply play, more than he did. His footwork was what hurt him the most last year, and now it is the one thing he cannot work on. Just awful for the team. We can still be good this year, but I think any talk of BZ being ready to be a significant force this year just ended, along with any realistic talk of the FF.

Patrick Yates


Honestly Yates, enough is enough. First of all, Duke fields an extremely deep and talented team this year. I'm very confident that Coach K will be able to manage the excellent talent he has assembled this year. There have been some extremely compelling suggestions for the various "small ball" lineups K could utilize (e.g. Singler, GH, Scheyer,Nelson,Paulus) as well as talk of playing a high pressure Team USA style where he could use a blue and a white team because of all the talent at the 2 and 3 spot. I'm really excited to see a highly athletic team use the press to jump start the offense. I think transition baskets were a key component missing from the offense last year. More importantly, what is your basis for the speculation that "any realistic talk of the FF" just ended?
Statistically speaking:

Zoubek: 7.3 min 3.1 pts 2.2 rbs 1.2 to

Granted, he was expected to play a much larger role this season, and some of his benefit in terms of protecting the rim and occupying space don't show up in the stat sheet. However, it's not even certain that he was going to earn significant minutes this year. That said, what is your basis for saying with certainty that a july foot injury precludes us from the FF? I've noticed that you tend to measure the potential success of a team by where you think they'll finish in the tourney. (X will get us to the sweet 16, Y makes us a FF team) Realistically, this isn't how college basketball works. I can see you predicting an ACC regular season finish or even a final overall ranking, but the tournament is totally unpredictable. That's the beauty of it. If JJ and Shelden's team doesn't run into the perfect storm of a JJ shooting slump and an absurdly athletic LSU team, they could very well have won it all.

I also don't see the relevance of your comparison to GP's injury. GP's problems were IMO 95 percent related to lateral quickness defending the perimeter and the lack of an explosive first step. Which of these two skills were you reasonably expecting out of Zoubs? Also I remember a certain duke team having great success with REGGIE LOVE at center. I thought reggie was great (and was friends with him when I was a student) but I don't think it's unreasonable to expect that Lance or KS is a better option at center.

I'm extremely optimistic about the potential of this duke team. I think people are going to be blown away by the performance of a healthy GP. Demarcus Nelson is a winner, and GH is a superstar in the making. Lance and Marty could be ready for breakout seasons, and I haven't even mentioned the freshman. So how about we wait and see and not start predicting the demise of the team...in JULY.

EarlJam
07-11-2007, 12:36 PM
Boozer, Paulus, Brand, Zoubek have all broken their foot... am I missing someone?

Hurley, 1992

That's when G. Hill took over a large part of the point guard duties.

ACCBBallFan
07-11-2007, 12:37 PM
Definitely hurts Zoubs ability to practice footwork or lower body weight training, but he can still work on upper body, and FTs.

hondoheel
07-11-2007, 12:53 PM
I remember Bill Russell once talking about James Donaldson when he was a young player, and how he should play ping pong to develop hand-eye coordination. Might be something he could do while he recovers.

Olympic Fan
07-11-2007, 12:53 PM
Not all foot injuries are the same -- this is the same injury that Brand, Boozer (twice) and Hurley suffered. Chris Collins also suffered the same injury in 1995 in preseason.

On the other hand, Paulus' injury was very different (it was the aggravation of a chronic problem that he brought with him).

The timing of the injuries is also significant -- Boozer suffered his first broken foot in September and was back at full speed by mid-December. He suffered his second on the last week of the regular season in 2001 and returned to play a big role in the Final Four just over four weeks later.

Brand suffered his injury in late in December his freshman season and returned two weeks before the end of the regular season. Hurley suffered his in the first half of the Feb. 5 loss at UNC and was back in the lineup Feb. 26 against Virginia.

This will hurt Zoubek's development, but based on past performance, he'll be back at full speed in mid-to-late September, in plenty of time to get in peak shape before the start of the season.

Classof06
07-11-2007, 01:03 PM
Obviously this injury sucks, but I don't think this is as devastating as people are making it out to be. Before you compare this to the effect that Paulus' injury had on our team, remember that Paulus broke his foot literally a month before the first game of the season. As of today, our first game isn't for almost exactly another 4 months. Like it said on the front page, this is a summer injury and I think we dodged a bullet by having it happen in July as opposed to Late August or September. I also don't see Brian losing the weight he gained on a bum foot; he's not running anywhere anytime soon. He can still work on upper body strength, and that was the bulk of his strength problem to begin with, IMO.

This sets Brian back in terms of his development, but even if he is out the maximum time (10 weeks), he still has around 4-6 weeks to get ready for the season. I'm not saying he'll return to 100% in that time span, but that's a good chunk of time to get back into form. As far as adapting, this injury further legitimizes 2 specific lineup possibilities. With Paulus, Nelson and Scheyer, K can use a 4/5 combo of Singler and Thomas or Henderson and Singler. I haven't seen Zoubek play since the season, but I agree with AKG in that even with a healthy Zoubek, Thomas and Singler can't be considered an inferior alternative to Brian at the 5. We will survive...

RepoMan
07-11-2007, 01:12 PM
This is devastating to any real post-season goals.
Patrick Yates

Dude: You are out of control. Take a deep breath . . .

mgtr
07-11-2007, 01:20 PM
Dude: You are out of control. Take a deep breath . . .

I agree with this quote about Patrick Yates' comments. This is not the end of the season. Don't forget, we have a secret weapon (well, he isn't such a secret, and don't ask me to spell his name!) This injury could well have made PP more important (though we will all watch UK this season to see how he develops).
I would guess that LT will be the main beneficiary of this problem. Note that 8-9 weeks will put BZ on the court at the beginning of official practice. Could have been a lot, lot worse.
I am certainly not ready to fold the cards we hold.

mr. synellinden
07-11-2007, 01:38 PM
Hurley, 1992

That's when G. Hill took over a large part of the point guard duties.

I posted about this several months ago and raised the question about whether there is something wrong with the floor in Cameron because it seems like Duke players suffer these injuries far too often in comparison to what you would expect to be the norm.

Back in the late 80s, NC State had one of those hard rubber floors like Card Gym used to have and I recall that one of the reasons they replaced it was due to greater chance of injuries. Playing surfaces definitely can create more injuries - see Astroturf - and I wonder if Duke needs to look closely at the Cameron playing surface and whether it's a contributing factor.

dukelion
07-11-2007, 01:46 PM
The season doesn't start until mid-NOVEMBER!!!!!!

Zoubek will be back in September and will have more than 2 MONTHS to practice and scrimmage.

Paulus if you recall opted not for surgery which really set him back as he waited until this offseason to have it.

Z had the surgery right away and will defintely be recovered for the start of the season.

Obviously it will set him back a bit but not so much that he won't have those 2 MONTHS to catch up and get back into shape.

Also not to mention that the ACC season doesn't even start until January 2008!

Geez.....Relax people.

SilkyJ
07-11-2007, 01:58 PM
I would guess that LT will be the main beneficiary of this problem. Note that 8-9 weeks will put BZ on the court at the beginning of official practice.

8 weeks puts him on the court on September 5th, which is more than a month BEFORE official practice starts. 10 weeks puts him on the court September 19th.

Remember that is FULL recovery time. He will be on the court wayyy before that at least doing light stuff. Not to mention our doctors seem to have this procedure/recovery down pat, so its not unreasonable to expect him out there at 100% (at least health-wise) in August.

Either way, with the "max-time" scenario where he does take 10 weeks, he is still ready to go a month before practice ever starts!

gep
07-11-2007, 02:02 PM
I posted about this several months ago and raised the question about whether there is something wrong with the floor in Cameron because it seems like Duke players suffer these injuries far too often in comparison to what you would expect to be the norm.

Back in the late 80s, NC State had one of those hard rubber floors like Card Gym used to have and I recall that one of the reasons they replaced it was due to greater chance of injuries. Playing surfaces definitely can create more injuries - see Astroturf - and I wonder if Duke needs to look closely at the Cameron playing surface and whether it's a contributing factor.

When I read the front page, all I could say to myself was "not again". [If I recall, didn't Demarcus also injure his foot (but in a game, I think)? Marty too?] In any case, it does seem like there's a relatively large number of foot injuries at Duke (I also posted this question a couple of years ago, I think). I was wondering back then if it might be related to what/how Duke players practice (please note that I'm just a regular fan, not an expert). The post above indicates a possible link to the floor in Cameron. Someone else also mentioned the shoes.

Another question I have is how prevalent are these kinds of foot injuries at other colleges. Are they occurring and we just don't hear about them (since we're not regularly their fans), or is it relatively unique to Duke. Thanks...

OZZIE4DUKE
07-11-2007, 02:09 PM
8 weeks puts him on the court on September 5th, which is more than a month BEFORE official practice starts. 10 weeks puts him on the court September 19th.

Remember that is FULL recovery time. He will be on the court wayyy before that at least doing light stuff. Not to mention our doctors seem to have this procedure/recovery down pat, so its not unreasonable to expect him out there at 100% (at least health-wise) in August.

Either way, with the "max-time" scenario where he does take 10 weeks, he is still ready to a month before practice ever starts!

Recovery time is always quoted for the time for the bone and connective tissue to heal. There is still considerable occasional pain in the foot for weeks or even months after the bone is healed. I know, I broke my 5th metatarsil when I was 15, just before baseball season started at my NY area HS. Was really bummed out as I missed most of the season.

The 5th M is a fragile bone, and is easy to break when your foot comes down hard or comes down on an angle, which is what happened to mine. I thought I had sprained my ankle, but nooooooooooo, I had what looked like a 1/2 inch pipe under the skin of my foot when I took my sneaker off.

While this injury seems to hit Duke bball athletes quite often, I think it is more because of the intensity that they practice and play, and just "bad luck" rather than the playing surfaces (Cameraon) or the shoes. Actually, I'd like to be proven wrong on this, because then the problem can be avoided in the future.

Get well fast, ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ, we need you next season! :D

greybeard
07-11-2007, 02:12 PM
I feel bad for Zoubek. Remembering back, playing ball in the summer, with teammates and former players coming back, with no coaching, is fun. Not the most important time, but he is a kid and this is a bummer.

jaimedun34
07-11-2007, 02:45 PM
You might add Nelson to the "foot injury" roster, although I think his foot was fractured, not broken or maybe it was an ankle.

Either way, it sucks for the team and Zoubek. Hopefully he can be back to good health soon.

mapei
07-11-2007, 04:13 PM
"fractured, not broken"?

jaimedun34
07-11-2007, 04:25 PM
lol, I always thought there was a difference b/t a fracture and a break? Ah, I think I get it now. :)

greybeard
07-11-2007, 04:55 PM
lol, I always thought there was a difference b/t a fracture and a break? Ah, I think I get it now. :)

I always thought that a fracture is a crack in the bone, which is different than a break in which the bone is fractured into more than one piece.:confused:

SoCalDukeFan
07-11-2007, 05:00 PM
It seems like we have way more than our share.

However I only follow Duke BBall close enough to know if we have more than our share or not. Anyone know how if our record of foot injuries is really high or just about what you would expect in college bball.


Thanks

SoCal

OZZIE4DUKE
07-11-2007, 06:09 PM
I always thought that a fracture is a crack in the bone, which is different than a break in which the bone is fractured into more than one piece.:confused:

A break is a fracture, a fracture is a break. I believe a compound fracture is when the bone breaks the skin, ie, is sticking out into the air - really nasty stuff.

Either way, it hurts.

greybeard
07-11-2007, 06:10 PM
Seems high to everyone, but then, the number of knee injuries seems low, and the number of overall injuries seems to be just about right. Well, that isn't exactly the word I should have chosen, "the norm" works much better.

I think that the issue of the number of injuries in all sports needs to be addressed and have been saying so for some time (you think?). A good beginning would be for the media or somebody to begin keeping track of the numbers of different injuries. Perhaps that might lead to changes that will make the games we play safer.

On the other hand, the fatalities from automobile accidents are readily available; we are bombarded with gruesome images daily, and yet do practically nothing.

My honest belief with regard to basketball in particular is that the number of injuries could be greatly reduced while actually enhancing the asthetics of the game. Calling our game more closely, getting rid of collapseable rims, and absolutely enforcing the rule against rim hanging, making it illegal and a technical no matter the circumstances would, I believe, all go a long way.

I'd be interested in statistical comparisons of different types of injuries in International play vs. the American game, say the NBA or college game. I believe that the International style is far less physical (I do not know that for sure).

Just whistling in the wind, I am afraid.

By the way, now that I am thinking about it (always very dangerous), the Feldenkrais work that I have been exploring might be most useful in helping athletes avoid foot injuries--remove tension and inflexibility from feet on an on-going basis and encourage use of the feet in more effective ways. Much better than having trainers work on feet with massage techniques and could be done by players on their own as part of a wellness regimen away from the court. Some training by a practitioner, there are several really good ones in Durham, and a few cds, 30 minutes of relaxing movement two or three times a week, and the entire body could be better oiled. Anyway, as my Gramma used to say, it couldn't hurt.

Hope Z deals with this well, and gets the support he needs.

Fish80
07-11-2007, 06:21 PM
Certainly, this injury is very disappointing for Z. But he has plenty of time to heal and to rehab before the season. He'll be fine, and the team will be fine. Having this injury now is much better than having it day 2 of practice.

madscavenger
07-11-2007, 07:43 PM
Sounds like a good name for a European rock 'n roll band.

DevilAlumna
07-11-2007, 07:53 PM
Sounds like a good name for a European rock 'n roll band.

Too long to fit on a T-shirt... unless it were a Zoubek-sized XXL-super-tall. :D

JasonEvans
07-11-2007, 08:41 PM
Sounds like a good name for a European rock 'n roll band.

Which? "Fifth Metatarsal" or "Zoubek"

I think a band named "Zoubek" would be cool.

"Dude, did you download the lastest Zoubek single? The drum play is nasty on that one!"

"Sweet, I just got tickets to see Zoubek on Saturday night"

-Jason "in my mind, Zoubek is a rock band with a little bit of a reggae influence mixed in" Evans

mapei
07-11-2007, 08:44 PM
My honest belief with regard to basketball in particular is that the number of injuries could be greatly reduced while actually enhancing the asthetics of the game. Calling our game more closely, getting rid of collapseable rims, and absolutely enforcing the rule against rim hanging, making it illegal and a technical no matter the circumstances would, I believe, all go a long way.

Instinctively I agree with the first of those, calling the game more closely, but not necessarily with having a zero-tolerance rule on rim hanging. Wouldn't that risk increasing injury, since players hang to avoid coming down awkwardly, especially on top of another player?

On collapsible rims, I'm not sure I understand. Why would getting rid of them reduce injury?

JasonEvans
07-11-2007, 08:45 PM
Which? "Fifth Metatarsal" or "Zoubek"


Wait, I just got it. You were talking about the title of the entire thread -- "Zoubek & the Fifth Metatarsal"

Yeah, that is a waaay cool band name!

-Jason "hmmmm. one second... I've got an idea" Evans

greybeard
07-11-2007, 11:05 PM
Instinctively I agree with the first of those, calling the game more closely, but not necessarily with having a zero-tolerance rule on rim hanging. Wouldn't that risk increasing injury, since players hang to avoid coming down awkwardly, especially on top of another player?

On collapsible rims, I'm not sure I understand. Why would getting rid of them reduce injury?

Actually, I would go for eliminating dunking entirely, me and John Wooden think alike about that. Thinking that no one would go for that, the changes would reduce dunking dramaticly. No one would thrown down without being assured of where he was going to come down. Would curtail much dangerous play as well as unnecessary wear and tear on bodies. No pull down rims, many dunks, especially by bigs off of bounds or catches would not be tried because they would be misses.

Now, I think dunks probably contribute significantly to wear and tear leading to injuries, especially over long seasons, which by the way are way too long which also contributes to injuries. I also think that dunks dumb down the game. Anybody who watched the Pearl or Pete would have to say that the game can be far more engaging, interesting and exciting than it is with dunks. Sure there are the few "highlight" dunks that bring everyone out of their seats (even me,I try but don't always make it), but imo those thrillas pale in comparison to the magic that using the board and maneuvering the ball can create. I have a feeling that creating the old kind of finishing skills would also make players smarter, cleverer, and better more interesting shooters. Would bring back the mid-range, dribble and pull up game that Internationals like Parker and Mano have but we see so few Americans use.

Hope that that helps.

madscavenger
07-12-2007, 12:44 AM
Wait, I just got it. You were talking about the title of the entire thread -- "Zoubek & the Fifth Metatarsal"

Yeah, that is a waaay cool band name!

-Jason "hmmmm. one second... I've got an idea" Evans

Bingo!

Their first album could be called FRACTURED

DevilAlumna
07-12-2007, 01:07 AM
Bingo!

Their first album could be called FRACTURED

Let me guess, their less-acclaimed sophomore album would be "8-10 weeks"?

Troublemaker
07-12-2007, 01:20 AM
Agree with everyone else. Not devastating, but it's an injury that will be felt in terms of consequences. From reading offseason articles, the vibe I got from the players and coaches is that they expected Z to start at center this season; I think Greg even mentioned in one of the articles that he considers Z to be the key to the season. Well, I doubt Z will be a starter now. It's hard enough for a true center to thrive in Duke's system, but now the injury time off + the post-injury time required to re-condition and get re-acquainted with teammates probably means Z is going to be a bench player this season.

His teammates just need to step up to minimize any negative impact. I mean, if Lance develops and retains a consistent mid-range jumper this season, I'd be thrilled to have a starting lineup with him and Kyle as the "4" and "5" on the court, with all the matchup problems they can cause. Since Kyle is allegedly a bit of a threat on the post and not just an outside shooter, it could work.

DukieUGA
07-12-2007, 11:05 AM
lots of posts indicate that "matchup problems" is kinda the buzzword. Lots of posts seem to indicate that Lance will create these magical problems for other teams as will Singler. I seem to remember Lance having problems matching up with other PFs/SFs last year, which is not to say he will have the same problems this year due to attrition (some big guys left last year) and his own development, but other players will have developed too. I'm just saying that i don't put too much stock in this matchup problems mantra b/c it swings both ways. How is LT or Singler gonna stop Hansblahblah deep in the post? Just for example. There are plenty of other talented big men in the ACC who are taller etc than either Singler or LT. If LTs game has changed somewhat from last year (ie a decent jumper and 2+ assists for the season) then maybe he will create some of these mythical MPs. I see hustle, grit and on-the-floor desire as LTs assets rather than being able to out-talent ACC PFs. Hopefully by his Jr. year LT will have a bit more polish to his game and be able to let his talent shine more (i just want to be clear, i do believe LT has got lots of talent). I have yet to see Kyle play so i'll refrain from assessing anything of his game.

Patrick Yates
07-12-2007, 11:40 AM
Great post. Yes, those MP's work both ways. KS will be hard to guard, but he may have some problems with true Cs and some of the burlier PFs in the acc.

It is kind of moot though. It will depend on which team can exploit those MPs to the best of their advantage.

This is where BZ's injury is so devastating. The one thing he really lacked was touches. And say what you will, his conditioning will suffer. Lifting weights will be hard. There are only so many exercises that can be done without standing or planting weight. But it is the thousands of reps that he would surely have done in the next few months, coupled with the problems of adjusting to the injury and the limitations that it will force on him.

He can still be a huge help on D, but if his O is not better developed, his Defender will be able to slouch off onto KS, or to stop penetration.

Patrick Yates

Bluedawg
07-12-2007, 11:42 AM
At least we are realllly good at treating it. Since he has already added weight to his frame, I wonder whether that will affect his rehab/recovery time. 8-10 weeks has him back on the court in September, so shouldn't affect his development too much...right???

It set Greg back quite a bit.

greybeard
07-12-2007, 12:37 PM
1. Feet are integral parts to a machine, along with the ankle, that has tremendous mechanical advantage and does an incredible amount of work. The release in basketball, pronation, operates similarly; momentum is genrated by any of a number of means, beginning of course with pushing into mother earth, and those forces get multiplied by a proper release. Same with the feet only they carry the weight of our world on them, multiplied by the force being put primarily down, which are then propelled up and forward by the lever system of which the feet bones are an integral part.

2. How should the feet be aligned and weight distributed in order to create maximimum performance? I don't know.

3. When we have ankle sprains and they heal, are are foot bones and the tissue that connects them the same and does the machine of which they are a part function differently after healing occurs? Rhetorical, yes? Does it matter? How could it be otherwise? But, the body does adjust. The question is how does the adjustment add to, if at all, the likelihood of a broken foot bone, or more particularly, a fifth meta.

Now, here it gets interesting, whether you've had a prior injury or not.

First, we have to know what we are dealing with. If you have read this far, maybe I gottsya.

Sit down on a straight backed chair or a stool with your feet a part, as in an at ease stance. Let the kneesbe over the ankles. Then look down and observe, CAREFULLY.

Check out the direction of the feet. They will not be parallel that is for sure.

Check out which is tilted on the outside more than the other.

Check out how the weight is distributed on each, back/forward, left/right.

Now we are going to get more finite: the toes. Examine each in relation to the others on the same foot; then compare them to partners on the other feet. Notice spacing, shape and direction.

Now, cross leg over the ther so that the ankle sits comfortably right above or on the need. Take a hold of your big toe, using the thumb and the forefinger on either side (not top and bottom). Pull the toe so it is extended, only what is confortable. Twirl it, the toe, slowly, again only what is easy.
Place the other hand at the top of the big toe extended, up where it joins near the ankle. Keep twirling, twisting. Can you feel movement with the other hand? Be patient. Move the other hand to the point where the mid bone joins the upper bone of the foot. See the picture of Zoob's foot that was on the main page; it would be the joint on the top of the metatarsal, just above the break; all five marjor bones in the ffot have those joints. See if you feel movement. Then let your hand slide down a bit.

Do this with each of your toes and observe. There will be differences.

Gotta run now. I will be back by popular demand to tell you some more, not alot, about how to complete a tactile examination of the foot using your hands. There are movements that you can do that will provide still more valuable information, and will begin to return different organization of the bones and declinations of the foot and how it works. You gotta pay me for that. Only kidding but this gets tedious even for me.

Suffice it to say that I recently spent a weekend doing this stuff; had significant reorganization that reawakened some old injuries I thought were healed and with continued work am experiencing an entirely different foot shape and stepping motion. Interesting technology. Later

RepoMan
07-12-2007, 12:51 PM
Suffice it to say that I recently spent a weekend doing this stuff; had significant reorganization that reawakened some old injuries I thought were healed and with continued work am experiencing an entirely different foot shape and stepping motion. Interesting technology. Later

Greybeard--you rock! (Though, I confess, half the time I have no idea what you are saying.)

SilkyJ
07-12-2007, 02:02 PM
It set Greg back quite a bit.

True, but I was more referring to our ability to surgically repair, Greg didn't haev surgery til after the season...


You might add Nelson to the "foot injury" roster, although I think his foot was fractured, not broken or maybe it was an ankle.

Either way, it sucks for the team and Zoubek. Hopefully he can be back to good health soon.

Nelson did break or facture or whatever, but that was during a game at MSG vs Drexel, not a cause of our facilities or anything like that. There was a "scrum" going for a loose ball and someone crashed into/onto his foot.

ACCBBallFan
07-12-2007, 02:02 PM
How is LT or Singler gonna stop Hansblahblah deep in the post? Just for example. There are plenty of other talented big men in the ACC who are taller etc than either Singler or LT. If LTs game has changed somewhat from last year (ie a decent jumper and 2+ assists for the season) then maybe he will create some of these mythical MPs. I see hustle, grit and on-the-floor desire as LTs assets rather than being able to out-talent ACC PFs. Hopefully by his Jr. year LT will have a bit more polish to his game and be able to let his talent shine more (i just want to be clear, i do believe LT has got lots of talent). I have yet to see Kyle play so i'll refrain from assessing anything of his game.Other than UNC, ACC is not all that strong in taller big men, but heavier yes.

No one on UNC is over 6' 9" but Tyler is a beast and Thompson weighs 245, Alex 225, and they have a PG who can penetrate and dish.

Dickey is 6'10" and ate up Josh last year but will be without Crittenden and Young but Clinch is back. Jeremis Smith, Peacoc and Aminu are no taller than Kyle/Lance, weigh more, and are athletic, with no proven PG. They also now have Lawal.

Similarly, Costner is 6'8" and McCauley 6'9" but they weigh a lot more than Singler or Lance, but also have no proven PG with Atsur gone. That also now have JJ Hickson.

Clemson has a good duo in Mays/Booker but they are not much bigger than Kyle/Lance. They lost Vernon Hamilton but still have cliff Hammonds and KC Rivers.

BC has Blair who is 6'11" but more of a defensive presence than O, and Oates is 6'10" but roams he perimeter. PG Rice will be their go to guy.

Miami has a lot of returning beef, but McClinton may not give them the ball and Clemente transferred to K-State.

UVA has lots of bigs who are not all that good, Mikaslaukas, Sorroye, but chances are Singletary will be showing off his NBA wears.

MD lost Ibekwe and their 7 footer but still have a bulky 6' 8" Osby and an athletic 6'8" Gist plus two decent guards in Vasquez and Hayes who will be better as Sophomores, but not much else unless freshmen over achieve.

I am not familiar with this year’s in-bound frosh, but FSU, Wake and VA Tech likely play small ball too.

So I am not sure where these mythical ACC matchups materialize. Other than Tyler/Deon and McCauley/Costner assuming a PG can get them the ball and Dickey et al who also needs a PG.

Against most ACC teams it will be Singler and Lance athletically matching up with someone else who is also classified more as an athlete than as a brute.

Small ball catches up with Duke in the NCAAs, not the ACC.

----------------
Edit for ACC players not on teams from last year

Yes, Duke lost McRoberts, but look at the dominant forwards and guards other ACC teams lost and none picked up a group as strong as Singler-King-Smith:

UNC lost Wright, Terry, and Miller, gets Graves off red shirt and is still well stocked.

NC State lost Atsur; but gets Hickson

GA Tech lost Crittenden/Young; gets Lewis Clinch and Lawal

FSU lost Thornton; Jerel Allen; but gets Toney Douglas back

BC Lost Dudley/Marshall/Sean Williams;

UVA lost JR Reynolds/Cain;

Wake lost Visser/Drum;

VA Tech lost Coleman Collins, Dowdell/Gordon;

MD lost Ibekwe, Jones, Strawberry, Bowers, and seldom used Parrish Brown.

If those guys were still around, Duke's small ball would be in much more trouble than it actually will be this year without all of them.

Troublemaker
07-12-2007, 02:32 PM
lots of posts indicate that "matchup problems" is kinda the buzzword. Lots of posts seem to indicate that Lance will create these magical problems for other teams as will Singler. I seem to remember Lance having problems matching up with other PFs/SFs last year, which is not to say he will have the same problems this year due to attrition (some big guys left last year) and his own development, but other players will have developed too. I'm just saying that i don't put too much stock in this matchup problems mantra b/c it swings both ways. How is LT or Singler gonna stop Hansblahblah deep in the post? Just for example. There are plenty of other talented big men in the ACC who are taller etc than either Singler or LT. If LTs game has changed somewhat from last year (ie a decent jumper and 2+ assists for the season) then maybe he will create some of these mythical MPs. I see hustle, grit and on-the-floor desire as LTs assets rather than being able to out-talent ACC PFs. Hopefully by his Jr. year LT will have a bit more polish to his game and be able to let his talent shine more (i just want to be clear, i do believe LT has got lots of talent). I have yet to see Kyle play so i'll refrain from assessing anything of his game.

That's a good point. As you said, MPs work both ways. My excitement for LT-with-a-jumpshot being a matchup problem doesn't mean I don't recognize that he's going to have lots of problems defending the post on the other end. That's almost a given. If Zoubek isn't part of Duke's predominant lineup next year (and especially if he's relegated to deep bench status), then any premier big man we run into will score on us at will when he has the ball in the post. Whether our ball-pressure and ball-denial can prevent the premier big man from consistently receiving the ball in the post is another question, but yeah, if Tyler has the ball in the post, he'll score.

LT needs to have a jumpshot so he can hurt these big men like Tyler on offense. Most of LT's value next season will be dependent on that jumpshot. If it's consistent then he can pull guys away from the basket and open up his driving game (because he does have tremendous quickness; LT's athleticism is almost entirely horizontal instead of vertical) and open up driving lanes for his teammates. LT without a jumpshot is just another guy. I hope Dave comes back with a jumpshot as well.

Basically, small ball requires guys who can shoot to make it function at a contending level.

Classof06
07-12-2007, 02:35 PM
See, I don't even think playing Thomas and Singler together should be considered small ball. Just because their not as ripped as Shelden or 7-1 like Brian, doesn't mean they can't defend in the post. Lance, though skinny, is 6-8 and Singler is 6-9. In college, that is not small-ball.

Troublemaker
07-12-2007, 02:45 PM
What the rotation could be like if Z is the 11th man on the team:

Paulus (33 min)..................Smith (12)
Scheyer (25)................Pocius (5)
Nelson (25)..................Henderson (25)
Singler (30)..................McClure (10)
Thomas (25).................King (10)

LT and McClure desperately need reliable jumpshots to make that work.

mapei
07-12-2007, 02:56 PM
And LT needs to avoid foul trouble. I remember games when he had trouble getting to 10 minutes; 25 is a big jump.

Troublemaker
07-12-2007, 03:00 PM
See, I don't even think playing Thomas and Singler together should be considered small ball. Just because their not as ripped as Shelden or 7-1 like Brian, doesn't mean they can't defend in the post. Lance, though skinny, is 6-8 and Singler is 6-9. In college, that is not small-ball.

6-8 and 6-9 will be much better than, say, playing a 6-4 Henderson on the post (due to the extra height and wingspan being better at preventing post entries). But ultimately, what threatens a big man like Tyler when he gets the ball in the post?
(1) defender's strength, to make Tyler receive the ball farther out than he's comfortable... LT and Kyle won't be strong enough
(2) outstanding height to challenge the shot... 6-8 and 6-9 are average height for the post. Tyler can go over the top
(3) outstanding leaping ability / shotblocking to challenge the shot... LT and Kyle are fine athletes, but Ben Wallace (explosive leaping) they are not

Tyler and other premier big men should score at will against us if they receive the ball in the post. We'll have to either send double teams to bother him (b/c Tyler IS a bit of a black hole when he gets the ball) or hope we get turnovers off ball pressure and denial.

Troublemaker
07-12-2007, 03:11 PM
The thing about relying on ball denial for post defense, though, is that it has to work in conjunction with ball pressure up top. I just don't see Greg as someone who can threaten the opposing PG with pressure, harassing him into turnovers or cutting off passing angles (by turning him around, for example). Duke's small lineup (or however you want to label a lineup without Z) probably won't have all the parts necessary to defend well against top 10 teams next season. You sorta need oustanding lateral quickness everywhere on the court to make it work. Duke will have to be an oustanding offensive team next season to contend at the highest levels, imo, because I don't think the defense can carry them. Hopefully LT and Dave are working on those jumpshots as we speak.

ACCBBallFan
07-12-2007, 03:13 PM
6-8 and 6-9 will be much better than, say, playing a 6-4 Henderson on the post (due to the extra height and wingspan being better at preventing post entries). But ultimately, what threatens a big man like Tyler when he gets the ball in the post?
(1) defender's strength, to make Tyler receive the ball farther out than he's comfortable... LT and Kyle won't be strong enough
(2) outstanding height to challenge the shot... 6-8 and 6-9 are average height for the post. Tyler can go over the top
(3) outstanding leaping ability / shotblocking to challenge the shot... LT and Kyle are fine athletes, but Ben Wallace (explosive leaping) they are not

Tyler and other premier big men should score at will against us if they receive the ball in the post. We'll have to either send double teams to bother him (b/c Tyler IS a bit of a black hole when he gets the ball) or hope we get turnovers off ball pressure and denial.Absolutley right, unless Zoubek can slow him down, you know Tyler is going to score and one, so you have to take your chances UNC does not hit from outisde.

Lawson and Ellington did not always hit, Miller and Terry are gone, Green can be streaky, Ginyard not an outside threat but like McClure has nose for the ball,

Deon/Alex is a bit of an unknown, but if you can get some fouls on them, rather take your chances on Copeland.

Graves might be a zone buster but who knows,
Frasor's foot may or may not have healed varying reports.

Better chance this year trading off McRoberts without Wright Terry and Miller and with Nolan to help Nelson on defense against his old teammate Lawson.

Kingsnoggle and Singler could cause those bigs some matchup problems, but UNC still the favorite.

greybeard
07-12-2007, 03:20 PM
Greybeard--you rock! (Though, I confess, half the time I have no idea what you are saying.)

Me neither, the body isn't easy to come to terms with and words are not really adequate, certainly mine. Let be try to clarify a few things by beclouding further:

1. Don't read anything into your observations. A foot might lean on the outside because of things going on elsewhere in the body, or not going on elsewhere in the body. Feldenkrais awareness through movement experiences are designed, structured, in a way that make certain combinations and functions and their relationships more apparent and free up things that are stuck, though we rarely know it. Developing one's ability to notice differences is essential to being aware, to learning.

2. As for the sentence you found so amusing, you know the old saw: a guy goes to the orthopod and says, "Doc, it hurts when I do this. Can you help me." The Doc says, "Sure, don't do it no more." More truth in that than we realize. So, sometimes, and in this case it was one of them for me, we move in strange ways to avoid what hurts." You start moving differently, you encounter the hurt. Now I have begun correcting other stuff including the alignments and movement of the bones in my feet that are making the hurt go away, this time not by "not doing it," but by organizing myself very differently.

3. If you are thinking of attempting the type of scan I suggested, I need to be clearer about something. When I said that your knees should be over your ankles, I meant to only be giving a suggestion about how far your feet should be away from your pelvis. Far enough so that your lower leg is neither leaning away from or toward your body. DO NOT animate your thigh muscles to hold your knees literally over your ankles. RELAX your thighs. Noticing the different angles your upper legs point towards is a very useful awareness, as is the angle our lower legs make when they join the feet.

4. If you have done the twisty things and are sufficiently interested, I will give you a few other things you can do with those toes to make quite a difference in the quality of feeling throughout the leg. Or not. You will tell me or rather yourself.

a. after twirling the toes, take ease toe between the same two fingers, elongate and pull down, only to the extent that is comfortable. There will be flextion in the joint that is mid foot. Do that with all the toes.

b. with your right foot over your left thigh as before, take the fingers of your right hand from above the feet and interweave your fingers and toes. Do not force things. Come with the hand over the top of the foot, not from the bottom. You will find that some spaces are more resistent than others. Do this any number of times. You WILL over time be able to put your fingers all the way throughso that the webs between the toes and the fingers touch.

c. repeat b but interlace your fingers through your toes in the NONHABITUAL way. Nonhabitual, you ask? The way you chose to interlace your fingers with fingers, and fingers with toes, is not by happenstance. Left to your drothers, you will put one thumb over the other virtually every time; ditto with the thumb over the big toe. Do it the other way. Will it matter? You tell me after you've done it. (try it when you do upper ab work, but rachet back a bit so that differences might be more discernible). Once your fingers are as far interwoven as is comfortable, use your hand to extend the foot and bend the front downwards, again only what is easy.

d. repeat b and c on the other foot.

Oh, I forgot to mention. Before you begin any of this. You should lay down on the floor, on your back. Put a small pillow under your head if your neck is uncomfortable. Notice how your body relates to the ground, and the quality of contact in the places there is contact. Relax for a few momments, and notice which side of your lower back is closer to the ground, which leg is pointed where, etc.

When you've finished with our little awareness through movement experience (it is greatly abbreviated, btw), lie down again. Notice again what is present.

Later.

Boston Dukie
07-13-2007, 08:38 PM
I don't think the Zoubek injury is much of a big deal for a few reasons.

1) Plenty of time to recovery as many have said

2) I don't think he was (is) going to play as much as everyone thinks. First, he needs to drastically improve and I didn't see him getting significant time until his junior year, and second he doesn't fit well in the K's system.

Zoubek is a tall, slow, back to basket big man with very limited athleticism (one dunk all year at 7-1?). Who was the last guy like this to do well with K? It has been forever, all the other players of this mold have not done well. Aaron Grey on Pittsburgh is the guy Zoubek should try to be, but I don't think even Aaron Grey fits well in K's system.

All of these guys below bring more to the court imho.

King - he can drain the 3 ball and is supposed to be a very good rebounder (which zoubek is not)

Thomas - high energy, quick and long, above average athlete, supposed to be a good leader

Singler - great at everything

McClure - versatile, high energy, great defender across many positions, above average athlete


Zoubek's best attribute is that he is tall.

I think with less Zoubek, coach K can run up and down the floor with all the small line-ups everyone on this board is drooling over.

ACCBBallFan
07-14-2007, 09:29 AM
King - he can drain the 3 ball and is supposed to be a very good rebounder (which zoubek is not)

I think with less Zoubek, coach K can run up and down the floor with all the small line-ups everyone on this board is drooling over.
I don't know how good a rebounder any of the freshmen are, but on a per 40 minute basis, Zoubek was Duke's best rebounder, including Josh.

Surprisingly, Dave McClure was second best, with Josh third since he tended to avoid the lane on offense.

Reb/40 min MIN OFF DEF TOT NAME
12.1 235 31 40 71 Brian Zoubek
9.1 716 52 111 163 David McClure
8.9 1164 69 191 260 Josh McRoberts
6.7 1052 45 132 177 DeMarcus Nelson
6.6 463 37 39 76 Lance Thomas
6.0 618 29 63 92 Gerald Henderson
4.0 1112 40 70 110 Jon Scheyer
3.1 193 4 11 15 Martynas Pocius
2.7 1068 19 54 73 Greg Paulus

If he can sang a rebound and make a decent outlet pass, Zoubs does not need to be a gazelle on the fast break.

Four guys can fast break on 3 or less, three guys can fast break on 2 or less, two can fast break on 1 or less, and one can fast break on none.

Zoubs can catch up and participate in half court offense if the break does not materialize.

He does have to make sure the opposing center does not beat him down to their offensive end.

mgtr
07-14-2007, 12:34 PM
Interesting and useful analysis. Amazing how many people on this board are willing to put in some serious thinking and calculations. Thanks for putting things in perspective. McClure numbers were not a surprise, but Zoubek's were to me.

Troublemaker
07-14-2007, 01:15 PM
If he can sang a rebound and make a decent outlet pass, Zoubs does not need to be a gazelle on the fast break.

Four guys can fast break on 3 or less, three guys can fast break on 2 or less, two can fast break on 1 or less, and one can fast break on none.

Zoubs can catch up and participate in half court offense if the break does not materialize.

He does have to make sure the opposing center does not beat him down to their offensive end.

Agreed. And I continue to think that folks overrate our fastbreak potential. Frankly, we don't have the type of PG and the type of athletic big men finishers for it. We do have 3 athletic wings but that's not enough. Zoubek isn't out of place on this team at all (at least wrt fitting in with his teammates [I still have qualms about how we've utilized/developed true centers historically]), and the more Z we see this season, the better a team we probably will be.

ACCBBallFan
07-14-2007, 01:58 PM
Agreed. And I continue to think that folks overrate our fastbreak potential. Frankly, we don't have the type of PG and the type of athletic big men finishers for it. We do have 3 athletic wings but that's not enough. Zoubek isn't out of place on this team at all (at least wrt fitting in with his teammates [I still have qualms about how we've utilized/developed true centers historically]), and the more Z we see this season, the better a team we probably will be.
Think yoy are right on that, Troublemaker.

Just because Duke had a lot of depth, pre the slew of injuries that hopefully will be healed by time season starts, does not equate to Duke being a running team. Neither does playing Paulus and Scheyer a lot, which I am not opposed to BTW, as long as some others lay too.

Roy uses his depth to run, run, run and wear teams out. If K uses his depth, it will be for matchups and to replace guys in foul trouble, not necessarily to run except if he puts a combination like Smith, Henderson, Nelson, Singler, Lance on the floor occasionally that can pressure the ball and start the break off turnovers.

Boston Dukie
07-14-2007, 07:15 PM
Of course you are going to have a lot of rebounds per minute when you play very few minutes, and those minutes are garbage time, and when you do play those minutes you are stationed under the basket on defense

If he were a good rebounder he would have had much better rebounding numbers in highschool at 7-1

Also, I wonder how many offensive rebounds he had?

Also, pull the per minute rebounding numbers for Elton Brand and Taymon D, and Chris Burgess and Shelden Williams (and Tyler H) and compare them with all with Zoubek and each other - would think lots of misleading conclusions

I think Josh is a much better rebounder than zoubek regardless of the what the per minute numbers say

ACCBBallFan
07-14-2007, 09:14 PM
If he were a good rebounder he would have had much better rebounding numbers in highschool at 7-1

Also, I wonder how many offensive rebounds he had?

I think Josh is a much better rebounder than zoubek regardless of the what the per minute numbers say

The Offensive and Defensive and total number of Rebounds were in the post on page 3 with the metrics, in Zoubek's case 31 Offensive, 40 Defensive, 71 total. I'll reformat which should help.

Reb/40 MIN OFF DEF TOT NAME
12.1 0235 31 040 071 Brian Zoubek
09.1 0716 52 111 163 David McClure
08.9 1164 69 191 260 Josh McRoberts
06.7 1052 45 132 177 DeMarcus Nelson
06.6 0463 37 039 076 Lance Thomas
06.0 0618 29 063 092 Gerald Henderson

Everybody except Lance who had 37-39 tended to have a lot more Defensive than Offensive rebounds. Josh for example had O=69; D=191, total =260.

I would not argue against a statement that a lot of Zoubek's rebounds came off his own misses, a claim often used agaisnt Sean May and Tyler too, and they were not too shabby.

If Duke shoots a lot of 3s this year, that connotes long rebounds which makes it more important that guys like Singler, Henderson, Nelson and Scheyer snag those.

It makes no difference what Brand or Shelden or Josh or any other former Duke player or player for another team had or did not have.

Duke has who it has and has to get rebounds from that group of players.

With such a height and weight advantage, (though I admit positioning and other factors are also important), odds are Zoubek is Duke's best chance for grabbing rebounds on either end of the floor, as evidenced by pickup game reports.

Only real alternatives to Zoubek are guys at least 6'7" McClure-King-Lance-Singler and my money is on Zoubek, then Lance, McClure, Singler, King, though rebounding is only one facet of determining who plays.

Zoubek also presents the best option for getting other team's bigs in foul trouble as they probably would not even come close to getting out there to guard King or keep up with Singler, and have the muscle advantage on Lance and McClure who stay inside and are not as much of a threat outside as King or Singler nor inside as Zoubek.

As I said in another post, when Zoubek plays, better he is paired with Singler or King (despite the slowness of Zoubek/King, so need Smith and Henderson and Nelson when Zoubek/King are both in) to prevent the double team as other big has to respect Singler-King ability to score but can slack off on Lance-McClure.

OTOH, when Zoubs is not in the game, better to play the quicker Lance or McClure is a more pressing up tempo manner. Not many situations where it behooves Duke to play both Lance and McClure at same time since the offense would stagnate as it did last year.

Kind of the same argument in reverse why many favor Paulus or Scheyer rather than both at same time, but K whose opinion is the only one that counts, does not seem to buy into that, (or maybe he just did not feel he had the alternatives last year but with Smith may change this sometimes this year).

SilkyJ
07-15-2007, 11:01 AM
Agreed. And I continue to think that folks overrate our fastbreak potential. Frankly, we don't have the type of PG and the type of athletic big men finishers for it. We do have 3 athletic wings but that's not enough. Zoubek isn't out of place on this team at all (at least wrt fitting in with his teammates [I still have qualms about how we've utilized/developed true centers historically]), and the more Z we see this season, the better a team we probably will be.

I agree that greg may not be the ideal PG to run the fast break, but only because of his speed, which as we all know was affected last year by the foot injury. So we really dont know if he can run the break well enough or not.

I also disagree that we dont have the personnel (beyond the PG) to run the break well. I disagree that you have to have athletic big men, our wings will suffice with their hops: Gerald and Demarcus are very good to excellent finishers in transition and scheyer is a natural scorer and can finish on the break as well. Besides, you dont think Lance and Singler (lance especially) are athletic enough to finish in transition??

Troublemaker
07-15-2007, 12:20 PM
I agree that greg may not be the ideal PG to run the fast break, but only because of his speed, which as we all know was affected last year by the foot injury. So we really dont know if he can run the break well enough or not.
We also have his freshman season (when his legs were fine) to observe, remember? He just doesn't seem fast enough. Name a great fastbreak team and almost invariably you're going to have a speedy PG to fuel that engine. Maybe his speed has been hidden the past two years, but at this point, it's "show me" time. Meaning I'm going to assume he doesn't have it until he shows me that he does. It really doesn't matter anyway. If he can be a good halfcourt PG, I'd be thrilled.


I also disagree that we dont have the personnel (beyond the PG) to run the break well. I disagree that you have to have athletic big men, our wings will suffice with their hops: Gerald and Demarcus are very good to excellent finishers in transition and scheyer is a natural scorer and can finish on the break as well. Besides, you dont think Lance and Singler (lance especially) are athletic enough to finish in transition??

Anyone can finish with an unimpeded path to the basket. But I'm talking about fastbreaks, not breakaways. For example, you mention Markie but he's never shown the ability to finish in traffic consistently. He gets blocked, stripped, or charges with regularity when there are defenders around. Question -- are you comfortable with the sight of Markie receiving the ball on the wing and then bullrushing to the basket with defenders in the area? I'm not. I think the only two guys on the roster that I'd trust (until someone shows otherwise) to have the body control and explosiveness to finish in traffic are Gerald and Marty. And we'll see what Nolan can bring to the table. Other than that, I think we have more of a team that's going to camp out behind the 3-pt line during transition than one that's going to be consistently successful attacking the rim. And with the "camp out" strategy, you need a speedy PG to push it and make the defense react to him and forget about the shooters in order for it to work. Which brings us full circle.

Cali-Duke
07-15-2007, 01:42 PM
We also have his freshman season (when his legs were fine) to observe, remember? He just doesn't seem fast enough. Name a great fastbreak team and almost invariably you're going to have a speedy PG to fuel that engine. Maybe his speed has been hidden the past two years, but at this point, it's "show me" time. Meaning I'm going to assume he doesn't have it until he shows me that he does. It really doesn't matter anyway. If he can be a good halfcourt PG, I'd be thrilled.



Anyone can finish with an unimpeded path to the basket. But I'm talking about fastbreaks, not breakaways. For example, you mention Markie but he's never shown the ability to finish in traffic consistently. He gets blocked, stripped, or charges with regularity when there are defenders around. Question -- are you comfortable with the sight of Markie receiving the ball on the wing and then bullrushing to the basket with defenders in the area? I'm not. I think the only two guys on the roster that I'd trust (until someone shows otherwise) to have the body control and explosiveness to finish in traffic are Gerald and Marty. And we'll see what Nolan can bring to the table. Other than that, I think we have more of a team that's going to camp out behind the 3-pt line during transition than one that's going to be consistently successful attacking the rim. And with the "camp out" strategy, you need a speedy PG to push it and make the defense react to him and forget about the shooters in order for it to work. Which brings us full circle.


Well, it is a little unfair to say Paulus hasn't run the fast break because we have been playing half court offense for his entire college career. We did it to tailor to JJ's abilities, and, for some reason, we continued it last year. Still, I'm not discounting the possibility that he has difficulty running full court offense (which is what we are doing next year). We'll just have to see what he does.

SilkyJ
07-15-2007, 01:57 PM
We also have his freshman season (when his legs were fine) to observe, remember? He just doesn't seem fast enough. Name a great fastbreak team and almost invariably you're going to have a speedy PG to fuel that engine. Maybe his speed has been hidden the past two years, but at this point, it's "show me" time. Meaning I'm going to assume he doesn't have it until he shows me that he does. It really doesn't matter anyway. If he can be a good halfcourt PG, I'd be thrilled.

Very true, but I agree with Cali's response below:


Well, it is a little unfair to say Paulus hasn't run the fast break because we have been playing half court offense for his entire college career. We did it to tailor to JJ's abilities, and, for some reason, we continued it last year. Still, I'm not discounting the possibility that he has difficulty running full court offense (which is what we are doing next year). We'll just have to see what he does.


Anyone can finish with an unimpeded path to the basket. But I'm talking about fastbreaks, not breakaways. For example, you mention Markie but he's never shown the ability to finish in traffic consistently. He gets blocked, stripped, or charges with regularity when there are defenders around. Question -- are you comfortable with the sight of Markie receiving the ball on the wing and then bullrushing to the basket with defenders in the area? I'm not. I think the only two guys on the roster that I'd trust (until someone shows otherwise) to have the body control and explosiveness to finish in traffic are Gerald and Marty. And we'll see what Nolan can bring to the table. Other than that, I think we have more of a team that's going to camp out behind the 3-pt line during transition than one that's going to be consistently successful attacking the rim. And with the "camp out" strategy, you need a speedy PG to push it and make the defense react to him and forget about the shooters in order for it to work. Which brings us full circle.

You are right about Markie in traffic, but I think with only one or maybe two people back on D in a fastbreak situation is much different than when he is driving in the halfcourt set. Let's hope he's made some more improvement like he has every year and will be a little better at finishing in traffic.

Troublemaker
07-15-2007, 02:37 PM
Well, it is a little unfair to say Paulus hasn't run the fast break because we have been playing half court offense for his entire college career. We did it to tailor to JJ's abilities, and, for some reason, we continued it last year. Still, I'm not discounting the possibility that he has difficulty running full court offense (which is what we are doing next year). We'll just have to see what he does.

I don't think it's a given at all that we're going to be a fastbreak team this season, i.e. a team that pushes the ball a lot. If an opportunity to run presents itself, sure, but I don't we're going to force the issue to be an uptempo team. Like I said, I think the personnel fits a halfcourt team more than a fastbreak team, and I think you may have cause and effect reversed. IMO, one of the reasons we didn't run a lot is Greg himself, which is fine. I happen to think he can be a very good halfcourt PG and that this season, Duke overall can be a very good halfcourt team that relies on pick-and-rolls, and pick-and-pops as our bread and butter.

jaimedun34
07-15-2007, 03:07 PM
I don't think it's a given at all that we're going to be a fastbreak team this season, i.e. a team that pushes the ball a lot. If an opportunity to run presents itself, sure, but I don't we're going to force the issue to be an uptempo team. Like I said, I think the personnel fits a halfcourt team more than a fastbreak team, and I think you may have cause and effect reversed. IMO, one of the reasons we didn't run a lot is Greg himself, which is fine. I happen to think he can be a very good halfcourt PG and that this season, Duke overall can be a very good halfcourt team that relies on pick-and-rolls, and pick-and-pops as our bread and butter.

You know, I've started to think the same thing about our upcoming team... I don't even care if we are a halfcourt team or a transition team. What's really important is that the team finds an identity sooner rather than later.

I think this team will start out like the 2004 team did... Trying to outscore opponents on the break and maybe dropping a few early games before finding the right game plan.

Cali-Duke
07-15-2007, 03:23 PM
I don't think it's a given at all that we're going to be a fastbreak team this season, i.e. a team that pushes the ball a lot. If an opportunity to run presents itself, sure, but I don't we're going to force the issue to be an uptempo team. Like I said, I think the personnel fits a halfcourt team more than a fastbreak team, and I think you may have cause and effect reversed. IMO, one of the reasons we didn't run a lot is Greg himself, which is fine. I happen to think he can be a very good halfcourt PG and that this season, Duke overall can be a very good halfcourt team that relies on pick-and-rolls, and pick-and-pops as our bread and butter.

If you look at last year's games, we usually had the lead when we played up tempo. Look at when we played UNC at Cameron. It was when we tried to slow things down that we just lost it. In my opinion, we didn't keep running last year because our guys just got worn down. Simply put, there wasn't enough depth for K's limited rotation. This year, it seems more possible. Plus, rumor on campus based on what we have heard from the basketball players is that we are going back to full court offense. Granted, Coach K hasn't said anything official, but it would seem that the players thoughts are a decent indication of what might be.

I completely agree with you in that we could be a good half court team that relies on pick-and-rolls. With our bigger guys setting picks on the outside, we would spread the court, which is important when we don't have a dominant post/rebounder. Still though, we have a bunch of athletic wings that fit a running offense. Lance Thomas would work really well in this system. For a big guy, Zoubek is pretty fast and can run with the team. So our "post" men probably wouldn't slow us down. In my opinion, we could do even better as a running team and rely on wearing teams out/exploiting holes in the defense. This would prevent Greg from constantly having to be the one to create for himself. Who knows though; this is all speculation. In the end, it doens't matter to me, as long as we win a championship while I'm still here. :)

OZZIE4DUKE
07-15-2007, 04:19 PM
Also, I wonder how many offensive rebounds he had?



Z's offensive rebounds would be skewed by his rebounding his own missed layup, and rebounding his own missed tap, and rebounding his won missed tap and finally (sometimes) putting the ball back in the hole. He did that several times last year. He really needs to improve his finishing around the basket.

ACCBBallFan
07-15-2007, 05:14 PM
Z's offensive rebounds would be skewed by his rebounding his own missed layup, and rebounding his own missed tap, and rebounding his won missed tap and finally (sometimes) putting the ball back in the hole. He did that several times last year. He really needs to improve his finishing around the basket.
I said the same thing in my post above:

"I would not argue against a statement that a lot of Zoubek's rebounds came off his own misses, a claim often used against Sean May and Tyler too, and they were not too shabby."

As long as he eventually finishes though, not a problem, ugly but effective even if not efficient, and it could lead to other team's big guy racking up fouls.

greybeard
07-16-2007, 10:00 AM
Many things go into it. Undoubtedly, speed with the ball, if you have it, can be one of them. Where you catch the outlet probably is much more important (whether and how quickly you can release). The real issues around Paulus' ability to lead the fast break seem to me to turn (1) on the extent to which K will want to run; (2) the ability to turn teams over and get it off the board; (3) Paulus's ability to easily change directions and stop on his "bad foot;" and, related to three but the thing IMO that hurt him the most last year, Paulus's ability to find sufficient stability to make quick decisions and release the ball unexpectedly (even to him) utilizing that "bad" foot in a pivotal fashion.

Some fast break leaders need to beat the defenders down the court; others can function well as the defense, on the move, tries to swell around the ball (2 or more guys). Greg struck me as the guy who loved to be the honey that drew the bears around him, only when he got into "trouble", which he was used to inviting, his foot failed him and he really found himself in "trouble."

I would not expect to see Duke try to dominate with its half-court defense as it did last year. It will need more possessions. Whether that means running or playing a quicker-to-the shot offense I wouldn't have a clue.

Troublemaker
07-16-2007, 11:33 AM
Now I DO expect to see Duke use the press more. If by fastbreaking, people mean that they expect to see Duke press and cause turnovers, especially against the weak teams on the schedule, leading to 3-on-1s, 2-on-1s, breakaway opportunities, etc, then I agree. But a true fastbreak team is one like Carolina, or Phoenix in the pros, that can do it off missed shots, not just turnovers. I don't see Duke as a team that has the personnel to be consistently effective pushing the ball off missed shots. I see us as a team that's going to push when an obvious opportunity presents itself but we'll be more than content to pull the ball out and grind teams in the halfcourt.

Besides the elements I've mentioned before that are lacking, can we clean the defensive boards? I'm pretty sure this is going to be a Duke team that gets pounded by offensive rebounds. That will limit the opportunities to run. Do we have the outlet passers? It's going to have to be the freshmen that excel in this area because I don't think the returning big men are particularly adept at it.

ACCBBallFan
07-16-2007, 11:08 PM
Now I DO expect to see Duke use the press more. If by fastbreaking, people mean that they expect to see Duke press and cause turnovers, especially against the weak teams on the schedule, leading to 3-on-1s, 2-on-1s, breakaway opportunities, etc, then I agree. But a true fastbreak team is one like Carolina, or Phoenix in the pros, that can do it off missed shots, not just turnovers. I don't see Duke as a team that has the personnel to be consistently effective pushing the ball off missed shots. I see us as a team that's going to push when an obvious opportunity presents itself but we'll be more than content to pull the ball out and grind teams in the halfcourt.

Besides the elements I've mentioned before that are lacking, can we clean the defensive boards? I'm pretty sure this is going to be a Duke team that gets pounded by offensive rebounds. That will limit the opportunities to run. Do we have the outlet passers? It's going to have to be the freshmen that excel in this area because I don't think the returning big men are particularly adept at it.I think we can confidently predict Paulus-Nelson-Singler as three on the floor a lot of the time.

How much Duke changes its personna from last year depends on how much the other 2 frosh bring to the table and how much improvement from the returnees, very profound I admit.

But seriously if you team those 3 with two of Smith, Gerald, and an improved Lance, Duke could be more uptempo. Gerald is a pretty safe bet with Nolan being needed for the quick guard and/or Lance for the mobile post guy, with Pocius also adept at that style.

For that style Scheyer could sub in for Paulus but not co-exist on floor at same time (other styles, you betcha).

Other than defensive rebounding Zoubek on the surface does not appear to fit that style, but not all 5 guys have to run a jail break, as 4 on less than 4, 3 or 4 on less than 3, 2 or more on less than 2, and 1 on more on none are all fast break advantages. if the break is not there, Zoubek with improved footwork could be a Luke Schenscher type in half court.

On a per 40 minute basis, Zoubek was Duke's best rebounder and McClure's average was also better than Josh. So if Lance is not mega improved, Dave could be the guy in this set but that's really small.

IMO, when Zoubek is on the floor, he should rarely be paired on forward line with Lance or Dave as they are not outside threats and facilitate Zoubs being doubled easily. They also are smaller and not as strong as many teams' forwards. So they have to be utilized for quickness, which is not a Zoubek trait.

So with Zoubek should be Singler or King but if King you really need a quick trio that includes Smith-Nelson-Henderson and even Singler if you want him at his natural 3 position.

Marty Pocius is also a possibiity particularly when Zoubs is in as Marty seems more adept at looking for the entry pass than any of last year's peers. Have to wait and see if any of the frosh know how to throw an entry pass where it is needed and on time.

But on any of these sets that exclude both Paulus and Scheyer, don't expect to see it anywhere other than message boards.
Realistically, it is Zoubek or King in post, not paired together, since Taylor likely needs at least a year to improve his perimeter defense but may be too good an offensive weapon to not use in a Kingsnoggle set. Taylor King is not 6'11" like Pittsnoggle but no one on Duke except Zoubek is and he cannot go 40 minutes.

Marty and Zoubs can only co-exist with one of Paulus/Scheyer (a virtual K requirement) and two of Nelson-Henderson-Singler-Smith since King/Lance/McClure have been excluded in this scenario above.

Since King has so much range, he could be paired well with Lance or Dave, whereas Zoubek can not. Singler-Nelson-Henderson-Smith can be paired with anybody.

mgtr
07-18-2007, 09:57 PM
ACCBBallfan-
Pretty nice analysis. I certainly agree with the Paulus-Nelson-Singler triad. There are those who are quick to "replace" Paulus and/or Nelson, but I don't see it. The rest of the team depends, as you say, a lot on the development of Frosh and Sophs. Perhaps the key is how much Zoubek and Thomas have developed, and exactly what King can contribute.
It will be an interesting year.

SilkyJ
09-08-2007, 02:31 PM
Anybody got one?

guys/gals who are still on campus: anybody see whether zoubek is still on crutches, has a boot, etc.? is demarcus wearing a cast?

dukemath
09-08-2007, 03:15 PM
I saw Demarcus on Friday in Wilson. He was not wearing a cast. A guy asked him to play a pick-up game with us. He politely said he was not 100% yet. I said "Are you crazy? We don't someone getting Demarcus injured in a pick-up game!"

6th Man
09-08-2007, 07:15 PM
I saw Demarcus and Zoubek at the football game last Sat vs. UConn. No cast for Demarcus and Zoubek was not on crutches nor did he have a boot. However, he was not walking well at all. Had on running shoes and a very bad limp. I'd say he isn't close to playing yet. But man, does he stick out walking around a football stadium. I guess being 7 feet will make you stick out a little.

heyman25
09-08-2007, 11:27 PM
practice is about 6 weeks away. Whoever is helping Zoubek with rehab better light a fire under his derriere.

Bob Green
09-09-2007, 01:38 AM
Zoubek needs to take his time and ensure the foot is properly healed. I'm no podiatrist but it seems like common sense that a foot injury to a 7"1" 260 pound person will take some time to heal. IMO, rushing him back to action would be a mistake.

I'm hoping for a healthy Brian Zoubek after Christmas.

4decadedukie
09-09-2007, 08:13 AM
One thing I never worry about is Duke basketball players receiving the best medical care, certainly to include rehabilitation and physical therapy. I recall more than a few cases where our guys came back sooner and stronger than expected.

NovaScotian
09-09-2007, 09:45 AM
i saw zoubek getting out of a car parked in a handicapped spot the other day. can you get a handicapped thing for breaking your foot? even if you play for duke?

TillyGalore
09-09-2007, 09:52 AM
i saw zoubek getting out of a car parked in a handicapped spot the other day. can you get a handicapped thing for breaking your foot? even if you play for duke?

Yes, though it is probably a temporary tag.

DukeUsul
09-09-2007, 12:30 PM
i saw zoubek getting out of a car parked in a handicapped spot the other day. can you get a handicapped thing for breaking your foot? even if you play for duke?

LOL, I remember when I was in school Elton always parked in a yellow zone in front of the dumpster by our apartment on central. I don't think I ever saw a ticket on the window of his Navigator...... I don't think ticketing bball players was ever a big priority of Duke Public Safety.

TillyGalore
09-09-2007, 04:17 PM
Could the handicap placard that would hang in the front mirror actually be a state issued one versus a Duke issued one?

heyman25
09-10-2007, 12:04 AM
Maybe his broken metatarsal will remind him not to travel when he is on the court.

SilkyJ
09-10-2007, 01:30 AM
well played my friend...well played...

NovaScotian
09-10-2007, 07:44 AM
well played indeed

SMO
09-10-2007, 07:44 AM
practice is about 6 weeks away. Whoever is helping Zoubek with rehab better light a fire under his derriere.

That's right! Someone better make sure Brian gets that bone to heal faster. A little hustle please???

Bluedawg
09-10-2007, 08:20 AM
practice is about 6 weeks away. Whoever is helping Zoubek with rehab better light a fire under his derriere.


That's right! Someone better make sure Brian gets that bone to heal faster. A little hustle please???

Absolutely not...you want him to heal properly. Anything else would hurt the team more than help it.

dougc33
09-10-2007, 08:41 AM
...sarcasm?

greybeard
09-10-2007, 11:48 AM
Let me see if I get this right. Six guys from last year's team had surgeries within a 12 month period, and you guys are concerned about what? And you have confidence in whom? Wow!

SilkyJ
09-10-2007, 12:21 PM
Let me see if I get this right. Six guys from last year's team had surgeries within a 12 month period, and you guys are concerned about what? And you have confidence in whom? Wow!

I'm not sure who you are implying that we should be concerned about. The injuries are not fault of the coaching/medical staff, in whom I have the utmost confidence. I guess I am a little concernced about the players' practice style...but I think you just have to chalk this up to a fluke...

I am concerned about our team heading into the season. We have much to prove. We will be very weak inside, but have a ton of talent in the 1-3 positions, and I am confident that our guard play will be sufficient to get us back to where we belong in the top 10 or 15 teams in the country...and remember, guard play is what wins in March...

Wander
09-10-2007, 12:24 PM
...and remember, guard play is what wins in March...

This is a complete myth.

greybeard
09-10-2007, 12:34 PM
I'm not sure who you are implying that we should be concerned about. The injuries are not fault of the coaching/medical staff, in whom I have the utmost confidence. I guess I am a little concernced about the players' practice style...but I think you just have to chalk this up to a fluke...

I am concerned about our team heading into the season. We have much to prove. We will be very weak inside, but have a ton of talent in the 1-3 positions, and I am confident that our guard play will be sufficient to get us back to where we belong in the top 10 or 15 teams in the country...and remember, guard play is what wins in March...

Me, I'd be concerned about the incidence of serious injury, not with how soon people could return. Let me see, what do Brand, Maggette, Latn., Hill, Dunleavy all have in common, besides having played for Duke.

Nope, I am not implying that anything is unique to Duke. I am implying that there is something about the game that needs to change.

More importantly, I am implying that players themselves need to take responsibility for educating themselves about how to learn more about the use of their bodies then just what will help them jump higher, run faster, hold position better, etc. Something that might begin with, "how can I land softer, and then softer and easier than that. How can I cut so it is softer, easier, less, jarring; etc . . . ."

Or, they can continue to rely exclusively on the expert trainers and medical staff who are not attuned to how each unique individual can best organize themselves to perform certain tasks, and how to not only be effective, but also be safe.

SMO
09-10-2007, 02:09 PM
...sarcasm?

Thank you. I see my sense of humor is not lost on all.

Patrick Yates
09-10-2007, 02:36 PM
There was a good article on SI.com about a recent rash of foot injuries that is currently striking the European soccer/futbol leagues. Several player have gone down with, you guessed it, metatarsal (sp?) injuries.

The writer attributed this to the shoes (many of which happened to be Nikes). His unscientific theory was based on the hand test. Basically, the newer shoes of today weigh considerably less than shoes of even 10 years ago. Nike, and other shoe companies, stress this weight difference as a selling point. Now, part of the weight-loss in shoes comes from new materials, but part of it comes from putting in less support.

I fear that modern shoes have less to do with support than aesthetics. Today's players have grown up in these shoes, as a result they may have spent years in shoes that did not provide their rapidly growing dogs with enough support.

Have you noticed that FB and Baseball Players rarely have this injury? I belive it is because they play in shoes with hard, flat, bottoms. Likewise, there is a tribe of mexican indians, who live in the mountains of north western Mehico, who wear only hard, leather sandals (think gladiator style). They routinely have races of up to 60+ miles, yet they have almost no incidence of foot and knee injury. Studies are begining to theorize that the modern shoe, molded to the foot, actually serve to weaken the bones of the foot by reducing the load they must bare on a daily basis. Thus, a hard plant or shift on the foot leads to a break.

None of this is beadrock science yet, but I believe that in 5-10 years we will beleive that current footwear is the equivalent of the desk chair.

As to Duke, our players tend to come from more affluent backgrounds (at least compared to other scholarship ball players) and were thus able to afford the trendier, less healthy footwear even as small children. Poorer individuals may spend more time wearing cheaper, and ironically, healthier, shoes until their teens (when shoe deals for AAU and HS teams kick in), by which time their metatarsals are more firmly developed. (I know Elton falls outside this theory, but his feet had to grow at a fast rate even for a post player. I was at Duke with him, and his feet were huge even for his body. Big players are more at risk for this injury, IMHO, but inferior footwear can't help).

If this is true, why do not all affluent kids have foot problems you ask? Simple, we may have foot problems, but, much like undiagnosed heart problems, our foot problems never manifest because we do not put the stress on them that a scholarship BB player does. I would like to see the Duke medical establishment take a look at this. Their curative prowess is astounding, but some preventative work would be far superior in the long run.

Patrick Yates

SilkyJ
09-10-2007, 02:49 PM
Me, I'd be concerned about the incidence of serious injury, not with how soon people could return. Let me see, what do Brand, Maggette, Latn., Hill, Dunleavy all have in common, besides having played for Duke.


Um...I don't know, what do they have in common?


This is a complete myth.

Thanks for your insight and analysis.


There was a good article on SI.com about a recent rash of foot injuries that is currently striking the European soccer/futbol leagues. Several player have gone down with, you guessed it, metatarsal (sp?) injuries.

The writer attributed this to the shoes (many of which happened to be Nikes). His unscientific theory was based on the hand test. Basically, the newer shoes of today weigh considerably less than shoes of even 10 years ago. Nike, and other shoe companies, stress this weight difference as a selling point. Now, part of the weight-loss in shoes comes from new materials, but part of it comes from putting in less support.



very interesting point. makes sense to me, at least intuitively...would like to see some serious studies done...

Karl Beem
09-10-2007, 02:51 PM
Agreed. The modern shoe is for lounging by the pool. In my last years of playing tennis (bad knees), I couldn't wear tennis shoes. I used the more supportive BB shoes.

jma4life
09-10-2007, 03:19 PM
BG, I've heard all that stuff you're saying as well, but from what I've heard, big bulky shoes are also truly worse for the feet and primarily ankle as they actually result in more forces and stresses being applied to the foot. Think about basketball players who often wear high cut shoes that are bulky compared to football and soccer players in cleats. Who has more frequent ankle injuries. So I guess basketball shoes need to both become less bulky and also need to improve their soles.

greybeard
09-10-2007, 04:08 PM
There was a good article on SI.com about a recent rash of foot injuries that is currently striking the European soccer/futbol leagues. Several player have gone down with, you guessed it, metatarsal (sp?) injuries.

The writer attributed this to the shoes (many of which happened to be Nikes). His unscientific theory was based on the hand test. Basically, the newer shoes of today weigh considerably less than shoes of even 10 years ago. Nike, and other shoe companies, stress this weight difference as a selling point. Now, part of the weight-loss in shoes comes from new materials, but part of it comes from putting in less support.

I fear that modern shoes have less to do with support than aesthetics. Today's players have grown up in these shoes, as a result they may have spent years in shoes that did not provide their rapidly growing dogs with enough support.

Have you noticed that FB and Baseball Players rarely have this injury? I belive it is because they play in shoes with hard, flat, bottoms. Likewise, there is a tribe of mexican indians, who live in the mountains of north western Mehico, who wear only hard, leather sandals (think gladiator style). They routinely have races of up to 60+ miles, yet they have almost no incidence of foot and knee injury. Studies are begining to theorize that the modern shoe, molded to the foot, actually serve to weaken the bones of the foot by reducing the load they must bare on a daily basis. Thus, a hard plant or shift on the foot leads to a break.

None of this is beadrock science yet, but I believe that in 5-10 years we will beleive that current footwear is the equivalent of the desk chair.

As to Duke, our players tend to come from more affluent backgrounds (at least compared to other scholarship ball players) and were thus able to afford the trendier, less healthy footwear even as small children. Poorer individuals may spend more time wearing cheaper, and ironically, healthier, shoes until their teens (when shoe deals for AAU and HS teams kick in), by which time their metatarsals are more firmly developed. (I know Elton falls outside this theory, but his feet had to grow at a fast rate even for a post player. I was at Duke with him, and his feet were huge even for his body. Big players are more at risk for this injury, IMHO, but inferior footwear can't help).

If this is true, why do not all affluent kids have foot problems you ask? Simple, we may have foot problems, but, much like undiagnosed heart problems, our foot problems never manifest because we do not put the stress on them that a scholarship BB player does. I would like to see the Duke medical establishment take a look at this. Their curative prowess is astounding, but some preventative work would be far superior in the long run.

Patrick Yates

Interesting, just got a call from my 17 year old. His school just put in some of that new turf and he heard from a friend that kids are saying that playing on turf with the newer type cleat bottoms--if you are familiar, the newer bottoms, instead of round spikes, have long thin inch long cleats, more like baseball shoes only thinner. Nike's lighest shoe, the Vapor, has the newer style cleats.


Anyway, the shoes he bought were the predecessor to the Adidas classic mundials. He was telling me that these shoes are made of paper thin leather that you can barely feel.

My understanding is that that is the way soccer boots of old were, that is, completely unstructured, even on the bottoms. Today's shoes have a structured footbed, instead of just a flat thin bottom as in the shoes of old.

By contrast, the Nike Vapors are very rigid on the side of the shoe. The outside is equally soft, but, in most instances are synthetic (all the hot colors) and do not stretch or breathe.

In bball, as in American football, I would go the real retro way. In basketball, return to old converse canvas. It will slow down the game. You just cannot go as hard and as unnecessarily high with those things. Also, I wonder about the floor finishes. I'm sure that they have been refined to reduce slipping and sliding by some ionization that repels dust particals. I'd do away with them too. (Only fooling here folks; they don't have that kind of technology do they).

In football, I would do away with these big face masks and return to leather helmets and shoulder pads and only play on grass. The game might even approach becoming a game again.

No, I ain't holdin my breathe on any of this.

buddy
09-10-2007, 04:48 PM
Take all the time necessary to get healthy. Nobody ever won a National Championship in November. I know its hard to work into the rotation mid-season, but late season injuries are a killer.

mapei
09-10-2007, 05:01 PM
>Have you noticed that FB and Baseball Players rarely have this injury? I believe it is because they play in shoes with hard, flat, bottoms.

I don't disagree with your overall point, but on this argument it seems that the hardness of the basketball court compared to football and baseball fields is a major difference that can't be discounted.

Like Karl Beem, I had to switch to basketball shoes for tennis. In my case it was just way too many ankle injuries. The bulkier shoes were definitely NOT a disadvantage for my particular ankle issues. I needed something to help me prevent roll-unders, and the high tops and wider soles helped a lot. I suppose they slowed me down some, but I never had a sprained ankle in the basketball shoes.

allenmurray
09-10-2007, 05:14 PM
i saw zoubek getting out of a car parked in a handicapped spot the other day. can you get a handicapped thing for breaking your foot? even if you play for duke?

Temporary handicapped placards are not uncommon at all for folks with broken bones in the feet and/or reent surgery to the feet/ankle/knee. allenmurray and Mrs. allenmurray have both been the beneficiaries. I believe ours had a 30 day limit.

greybeard
09-10-2007, 05:15 PM
>Have you noticed that FB and Baseball Players rarely have this injury? I believe it is because they play in shoes with hard, flat, bottoms.

I don't disagree with your overall point, but on this argument it seems that the hardness of the basketball court compared to football and baseball fields is a major difference that can't be discounted.

Like Karl Beem, I had to switch to basketball shoes for tennis. In my case it was just way too many ankle injuries. The bulkier shoes were definitely NOT a disadvantage for my particular ankle issues. I needed something to help me prevent roll-unders, and the high tops and wider soles helped a lot. I suppose they slowed me down some, but I never had a sprained ankle in the basketball shoes.

Try wood, it slows the game down; EarlJam swears by it.:cool:

bluebutton
09-10-2007, 07:48 PM
Temporary handicapped placards are not uncommon at all for folks with broken bones in the feet and/or reent surgery to the feet/ankle/knee. allenmurray and Mrs. allenmurray have both been the beneficiaries. I believe ours had a 30 day limit.

Out in CA, I had a 6 month temporary handicap tag for hip surgery. I'd hope that players AND regular folk who have had surgeries have recourse to this. Then again LA parking is such a nightmare perhaps they are more willing to help out LA gimps?

Jaymf7
09-10-2007, 09:26 PM
Let me see if I get this right. Six guys from last year's team had surgeries within a 12 month period, and you guys are concerned about what? And you have confidence in whom? Wow!

I may be quoting the wrong poster here, but it seems like there has been quite a lot of discussion about Duke players having a disproportionately high incidence of broken feet over the past decade or so. There's no disputing that we've had a lot of broken feet, but maybe that's a good thing. Consider this...

If we assume that injuries are a natural part of the sport and all teams will suffer injuries, which they do, it seems that broken feet are preferable to other types of lower-body injuries (think knees). I'm not a doctor, but maybe it is a "weakest link" kind of thing.

Other than Dave last year, it seems like we have had very few serious knee injuries. Perhaps this is due to special stretching/training/conditioning routines we have adopted. When our players' lower bodies have been put in extremely stressful positions, their feet have given way before their knees.

This may be complete crap, but I'd gladly take 8-10 week foot injuries over career-threatening knee issues (which we have had disproportionately few).

BTW-- crazy finish to this first Monday night game!?!? Just saw the 2 consecutive goal line interference penalties.

greybeard
09-11-2007, 04:00 PM
I may be quoting the wrong poster here, but it seems like there has been quite a lot of discussion about Duke players having a disproportionately high incidence of broken feet over the past decade or so. There's no disputing that we've had a lot of broken feet, but maybe that's a good thing. Consider this...

If we assume that injuries are a natural part of the sport and all teams will suffer injuries, which they do, it seems that broken feet are preferable to other types of lower-body injuries (think knees). I'm not a doctor, but maybe it is a "weakest link" kind of thing.

Other than Dave last year, it seems like we have had very few serious knee injuries. Perhaps this is due to special stretching/training/conditioning routines we have adopted. When our players' lower bodies have been put in extremely stressful positions, their feet have given way before their knees.

This may be complete crap, but I'd gladly take 8-10 week foot injuries over career-threatening knee issues (which we have had disproportionately few).

BTW-- crazy finish to this first Monday night game!?!? Just saw the 2 consecutive goal line interference penalties.

Neither are good. Knee, acl and or mcl, are real bad. I have a feeling that feet/ankle problems, even those of the more routine variety suffered by most even quasi jocks during teens through early adulthood are the source of many otherwise inexplicable hip replacements in people who never "hurt" their hips, back problems that all too often are "blamed" on girth rather than fundamental and longstanding misallignments and poor-ambulation/standing/sitting habbits having to do with hips having to do with feet/ankles. Oops, left out bad knee injuries.

Feet are the most important and complicated machines in a series of machines that we use in ambulating, jumping, landing, sitting, getting upright, etc. Can't see how a serious foot injury like Z's is preferrable to a knee injury unless it is a real, rea, real nasty one.

I certainly would take McClure's knee problem over the current foot problems facing his three teammates.

NYC Duke Fan
10-05-2007, 11:58 AM
Did anyone hear about Brian Zoubek breaking his foot in July ?

If so, any details ?

thank You

Classof06
10-05-2007, 12:13 PM
Yeah, there was a lot of talk about it on these boards this summer. Brian broke his left foot July 9th during a pickup game at Duke and had surgery soon thereafter. He just recently got back on the floor again and, unless there's something I don't know, should be ready for the first day of practice on October 12th.

ACCBBallFan
10-05-2007, 04:43 PM
Did anyone hear about Brian Zoubek breaking his foot in July ?

If so, any details ?

thank You

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/high_school/new_jersey/20071005_Zoubek_looking_for_a_fresh_start.html