Scholarships and Athletics

[NYC Duke Fan]

I know everyone's interest is focused on Sunday's game with Michigan but this discussion came up last night at dinner and I thought that I would post it and get an answer.

I am not naive to think that athletes at any top flight academic institution, Duke included, are subject to the same academic qualifications as virtually all students are. In addition, students with special gifts , I am sure, are also not subject. If an 18 year old who is a world class cellist applies or an 18 year old who won a Pulitzer prize in literature applies, I am sure that they do not have to score 1400-1500 on their SATs or carry an almost straight A=average and these two examples because of their special qualifications could qualify for a full academic scholarship. .

I doubt very much that Jodi Foster at Yale, Brooke Shields at Princeton, Natalie Portman at Harvard, Jennifer Connelly at Stanford or Julis Stiles at Columbia had the same academic qualifications as the regular applying student. The point is that they had a special qualification for admission, similar to the world class cello player, although I doubt that they needed an academic scholarship..

Sorry for rambling, but the question that was asked at dinner by a friend is why couldn't Duke who is recruiting a top flight basketball player, ( saying that basketball is a special qualification for admission similar to the cello player),and give him an academic scholarship so long as meets certain academic qualifications and save a basketball scholarship to give to someone else, thus increasing the number of basketball players?

[4decadedukie]

This is a much discussed subject, there are probably thousands of somewhat related posts in the DBR archives, and there is also a pertinent, currently active thread. With that said, an answer to your friend's question might be that the size of any Division I Basketball team is limited by NCAA policy; therefore, "increasing" the number of varsity players through alternative scholarship assistance is not an option.

[MCFinARL]

I know everyone's interest is focused on Sunday's game with Michigan but this discussion came up last night at dinner and I thought that I would post it and get an answer.

I am not naive to think that athletes at any top flight academic institution, Duke included, are subject to the same academic qualifications as virtually all students are. In addition, students with special gifts , I am sure, are also not subject. If an 18 year old who is a world class cellist applies or an 18 year old who won a Pulitzer prize in literature applies, I am sure that they do not have to score 1400-1500 on their SATs or carry an almost straight A=average and these two examples because of their special qualifications could qualify for a full academic scholarship. .

I doubt very much that Jodi Foster at Yale, Brooke Shields at Princeton, Natalie Portman at Harvard, Jennifer Connelly at Stanford or Julis Stiles at Columbia had the same academic qualifications as the regular applying student. The point is that they had a special qualification for admission, similar to the world class cello player, although I doubt that they needed an academic scholarship..

Sorry for rambling, but the question that was asked at dinner by a friend is why couldn't Duke who is recruiting a top flight basketball player, ( saying that basketball is a special qualification for admission similar to the cello player),and give him an academic scholarship so long as meets certain academic qualifications and save a basketball scholarship to give to someone else, thus increasing the number of basketball players?

It's my general impression that Duke doesn't give a lot of purely academic scholarships, beyond very elite programs like the Robertson and Duke scholarships. instead, most of the financial aid is need-based. So even the cellist or writer you describe might not receive a scholarship if they didn't qualify for need-based aid. Generally speaking, admissions standards are one thing, and scholarship standards are something else. This isn't true at all schools, of course--academic scholarships are increasingly common at state universities that want to up their statistical profiles by attracting students with high SAT scores, for example.

As a practical matter, of course, 4decadedukie is no doubt right that NCAA policies would make this hard to do effectively anyway. I'm just saying that even if you could get around the NCAA rules, there might still be institutional obstacles.

[Rudy]

I don't see the basketball program suffering because it doesn't have enough scholarships to offer top recruits. Maybe you could make that argument for the football team, or some other athletic team that feels it is short on scholarship allotments. But then why give even more favor than already exists to the special talent of athleticism to take a scholarship away (it is a scarce resource) from another special talent area like music or science or from a non-athletic need-based award?

[NYC Duke Fan]

I don't see the basketball program suffering because it doesn't have enough scholarships to offer top recruits. Maybe you could make that argument for the football team, or some other athletic team that feels it is short on scholarship allotments. But then why give even more favor than already exists to the special talent of athleticism to take a scholarship away (it is a scarce resource) from another special talent area like music or science or from a non-athletic need-based award?

You make a very valid point .

[-jk]

I believe the NCAA has a long and convoluted (naturally) set of rules to cover athletic scholarships.

I'm on my BB right now, and can't so searching for the specifics.

-jk

[pfrduke]

I recall that Will Johnson, who played for the Heels back in the early 2000s, was a Morehead Scholar. I do not recall whether he was recruited or walked on after he arrived at UNC. I also do not recall whether his Morehead scholarship counted against the team's scholarship limits. But there is at least precedent for a student on an academic scholarship to play on a high-level D-I team (insert joke here about how UNC was not exactly a "high level" team when Johnson played).

[SCMatt33]

I don't know the exact wording, but the NCAA's rule is pretty simple. The basketball team can only have 13 players receiving any scholarship money. Schools can call scholarships whatever they want. As far as the NCAA is concerned, there is no difference between a "basketball" scholarship and an "academic" scholarship. Furthermore, they have rules covering multi-sport athletes, as their scholarship will only count against one team. There are a ton of examples across division I of football players walking on to basketball teams, because their scholarships will only count against football no matter what. For basketball players, their scholarships only count against basketball if they play any other sport (besides football). I'm not sure what the order is after that or if the school gets to choose beyond football and basketball, but there are certainly strict rules regarding this issue.

[Bluedog]

Just thought I'd point out that Ivy League schools do not give any merit scholarships (academic or athletic). So your examples (save Stanford) couldn't receive full rides unless they're need based. Although obviously a special skill (athletics included) can help with admissions.

[Olympic Fan]

I don't know the exact wording, but the NCAA's rule is pretty simple. The basketball team can only have 13 players receiving any scholarship money. Schools can call scholarships whatever they want. As far as the NCAA is concerned, there is no difference between a "basketball" scholarship and an "academic" scholarship. Furthermore, they have rules covering multi-sport athletes, as their scholarship will only count against one team. There are a ton of examples across division I of football players walking on to basketball teams, because their scholarships will only count against football no matter what. For basketball players, their scholarships only count against basketball if they play any other sport (besides football). I'm not sure what the order is after that or if the school gets to choose beyond football and basketball, but there are certainly strict rules regarding this issue.

Just about right ... schools are allowed just 13 recruited basketball players. You can call their scholarships anything you want, but if they are recruited and receive any money. There are a couple of exceptions:

-- football/basketball players count against football's limit of 85. But basketball/any other sport count against basketball.

-- a player, even a recruited player, won't count against the limit if he receives NO money from the school. That's what happened with Trajan Langdon, who signed a baseball contract. The San Diego Padres paid his way to Duke. Lee Melchionni was recruited during a time when the NCAA had an ill-conceived rule against more than five scholarship kids in a class. His wealthy father paid his way for one year to get around the rule.

-- a non-recruited player doesn't count against the limit. But there are VERY strict rules to goven this. Carolina has a kid coming in next year named Simmons that was never recruited by UNC, although he was by several mid-majors. This comes up in Duke football a lot -- I believe that coaches are allowed one contact with a kid, but that a second contact makes the kid a recruited player and if he gets any money (even academic or need-based scholarship money) the kid becomes a recruited player.

Believe me, the NCAA is well aware of how schools try to get around the scholarship limits. There are rules that prevent giving track scholarships to football players or music scholarships to basketball players.

[NovaScotian]

It's my general impression that Duke doesn't give a lot of purely academic scholarships, beyond very elite programs like the Robertson and Duke scholarships. instead, most of the financial aid is need-based. So even the cellist or writer you describe might not receive a scholarship if they didn't qualify for need-based aid. Generally speaking, admissions standards are one thing, and scholarship standards are something else.

Also, music and literature are academic programs at duke, while basketball isn't.

[uh_no]

I don't know the exact wording, but the NCAA's rule is pretty simple. The basketball team can only have 13 players receiving any scholarship money. Schools can call scholarships whatever they want. As far as the NCAA is concerned, there is no difference between a "basketball" scholarship and an "academic" scholarship. Furthermore, they have rules covering multi-sport athletes, as their scholarship will only count against one team. There are a ton of examples across division I of football players walking on to basketball teams, because their scholarships will only count against football no matter what. For basketball players, their scholarships only count against basketball if they play any other sport (besides football). I'm not sure what the order is after that or if the school gets to choose beyond football and basketball, but there are certainly strict rules regarding this issue.

I believe there are some differences though, there are minor sport athletes that receive partial scholarships so that the money can be divided amongst more players....apparently there are different scholly rules for different sports, which I didn't know

[TheRose77]

Wiki Natalie Portman and you will find that she was quite capable of making it into Harvard without special treatment.

[wilson]

Wiki Natalie Portman and you will find that she was quite capable of making it into Harvard without special treatment.Same with Jodie Foster at Yale. She's immensely articulate and speaks about three languages.

[SCMatt33]

I believe there are some differences though, there are minor sport athletes that receive partial scholarships so that the money can be divided amongst more players....apparently there are different scholly rules for different sports, which I didn't know

This is correct. I was only talking about it in relation to football and basketball. The NCAA differentiates between "head count" sports and "equivalency" sports. Head count sports like football and basketball have one scholarship for 1 person, regardless of whether the scholarship is full or partial. Equivalency sports are allowed to split scholarships between athletes (though in some sports, there are limits to how many athletes the scholarships can be split between).

[Saratoga2]

Today's paper had an article dealing with another side of the scholarship question. It dealt with basketball in particular and noted that a number of programs are receiving NCAA money but are graduating less than 50 % of their players. In addition, it pointed to a large discrepancy rate between the graduation rate of white and black players. Duke earned high marks in that regard as did several tournament teams. On the other hand I believe Syracuse was not mentioned favorably.

Tough situation where kids have the opportunity to get an education but wind up neither getting into the NBA nor having a degree to offer prospective employers.

[MCFinARL]

Also, music and literature are academic programs at duke, while basketball isn't.

Well, yes--thus their relevance to the availability or unavailability of academic scholarships. Am I missing something?

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Wiki Natalie Portman and you will find that she was quite capable of making it into Harvard without special treatment.

As any Harvard admissions officer would haughtily tell you, you have a 7% of getting into Harvard and if you are not legacy, the number is actually lower. So saying anyone could get into Harvard without whatever special circumstance allowed it is probably a stretch since the amount of randomness in the process is substantial.

[4decadedukie]

As any Harvard admissions officer would haughtily tell you, you have a 7% of getting into Harvard and if you are not legacy, the number is actually lower. So saying anyone could get into Harvard without whatever special circumstance allowed it is probably a stretch since the amount of randomness in the process is substantial.

Ah, could this be an example of the dreaded "pot calling the kettle crimson?"
:D

[MCFinARL]

Ah, could this be an example of the dreaded "pot calling the kettle crimson?"
:D

Could be, but that doesn't mean OandBS is wrong. Portman is certainly an intelligent young lady, but Harvard (like Princeton also, I imagine) turns down numerous class valedictorians with perfect SAT scores (which, BTW, Natalie Portman did not have--I think hers were in the mid to high 1300s when 1600 was the max--this was reported in a magazine interview with Portman a few years back) every year. It's really just a crap shoot. So, yeah, it's not wrong to say that Portman might have gotten in to Harvard without being who she was, but it is wrong to say she would have.

[uh_no]

Could be, but that doesn't mean OandBS is wrong. Portman is certainly an intelligent young lady, but Harvard (like Princeton also, I imagine) turns down numerous class valedictorians with perfect SAT scores (which, BTW, Natalie Portman did not have--I think hers were in the mid to high 1300s when 1600 was the max--this was reported in a magazine interview with Portman a few years back) every year. It's really just a crap shoot. So, yeah, it's not wrong to say that Portman might have gotten in to Harvard without being who she was, but it is wrong to say she would have.

Agree. Admissions is such a crapshoot, especially when SAT scores get up into those higher ranges. Given that's on the low range, but schools put a lot of weight on stuff you've done already (ie, stuff that brings the school publicity and thus $$$) and you can't argue that portman had been more successful before she got there than most people will be in their lives