Graduation rates

[dairedevil]

Today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution has an editorial by Arne Duncan about the NCAA basketball teams and graduation rates. Not a lot of new information, but he says this in the article,

"In last year’s tournament, the two finalists, Duke and Butler, both had outstanding academic records. This year, eight teams in the tournament graduate 100 percent of both their black players and white players: Belmont, Brigham Young, Illinois, Notre Dame, Utah State, Vanderbilt, Villanova and Wofford."

Are the Duke seniors not on track to graduate? I hadn't heard that at all...I know Kyle has received academic honors. If, by some chance, Nolan isn't graduating, that would affect any jersey retirement.....and wouldn't it keep the banner (s) from the rafters?

Here's the link: http://www.ajc.com/opinion/the-real-madness-in-876214.html

[Bluedog]

Today's Atlanta Journal-Constitution has an editorial by Arne Duncan about the NCAA basketball teams and graduation rates. Not a lot of new information, but he says this in the article,

"In last year’s tournament, the two finalists, Duke and Butler, both had outstanding academic records. This year, eight teams in the tournament graduate 100 percent of both their black players and white players: Belmont, Brigham Young, Illinois, Notre Dame, Utah State, Vanderbilt, Villanova and Wofford."

Are the Duke seniors not on track to graduate? I hadn't heard that at all...I know Kyle has received academic honors. If, by some chance, Nolan isn't graduating, that would affect any jersey retirement.....and wouldn't it keep the banner (s) from the rafters?

Here's the link: http://www.ajc.com/opinion/the-real-madness-in-876214.html

Graduation rate of 100% indicates nobody transferred or left early for the NBA over a rolling period, I believe. It's not that just all seniors graduate. Gerald was the last to leave early for the NBA, and Elliot transferred (and TK the year before). At least, that's how it used to work. I'm not sure if they've changed the transfer/leave for NBA rules in the calculations.

Nolan and Kyle are both on pace to graduate this year.

Edit: Just looked up Duke's APR, and it's multi-year score is a 980 out of 1000. Duke received a perfect 1000 for the most recent 2008-09 class. (Although I don't see a separate men's and women's score.)

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/apr2009/193_2009_apr.pdf

[cspan37421]

This is my understanding too. I remember when Bob Huggins was the poster boy for atrocious graduation rates Cincinnati, a perfect 0%. As I expected, he complained about the way it was calculated. But as I listened to his detailed complaints, if he was right, there is a problem with how it's calculated. If you have kids transfer away and get a degree somewhere else, that's a 0 in your numerator and a 1 in your denominator. If you have kids who are talented enough for the NBA and leave early for a full time job, same thing (even if they come back and get their degree later - beyond, what, a 6 year window?). I forget the rest of his examples, but the calculation is flawed, or at least, doesn't measure what you might think it does (e.g., that the rate is the compliment of the % who drop out/fail out - it's just not so).

[Dukeface88]

Graduation rate of 100% indicates nobody transferred or left early for the NBA over a rolling period, I believe. It's not that just all seniors graduate. Gerald was the last to leave early for the NBA, and Elliot transferred (and TK the year before). At least, that's how it used to work. I'm not sure if they've changed the transfer/leave for NBA rules in the calculations.

Nolan and Kyle are both on pace to graduate this year.

Edit: Just looked up Duke's APR, and it's multi-year score is a 980 out of 1000. Duke received a perfect 1000 for the most recent 2008-09 class. (Although I don't see a separate men's and women's score.)

http://web1.ncaa.org/app_data/apr2009/193_2009_apr.pdf

From http://www.ncaa.org/wps/wcm/connect/public/NCAA/Resources/Research/Graduation+Rates, it looks like transfers don't count against us, provided they were in good academic standing when they left, but early NBA departures do. So my guess is that Gerald and McBob are the reason we don't have a perfect score.

[UrinalCake]

"This year, eight teams in the tournament graduate 100 percent of both their black players and white players"

Is it really necessary to separate black and white players? Isn't that just asking for trouble?

[dukebluesincebirth]

This is my understanding too. I remember when Bob Huggins was the poster boy for atrocious graduation rates Cincinnati, a perfect 0%. As I expected, he complained about the way it was calculated. But as I listened to his detailed complaints, if he was right, there is a problem with how it's calculated. If you have kids transfer away and get a degree somewhere else, that's a 0 in your numerator and a 1 in your denominator. If you have kids who are talented enough for the NBA and leave early for a full time job, same thing (even if they come back and get their degree later - beyond, what, a 6 year window?). I forget the rest of his examples, but the calculation is flawed, or at least, doesn't measure what you might think it does (e.g., that the rate is the compliment of the % who drop out/fail out - it's just not so).

I totally get everything you wrote and thanks for doing the research. It sounds like the system may be flawed. Having said that, it still blows me away that Bob Huggins could have a 0% rate. His teams weren't all that great to cause a huge drop in numbers because of early-NBA entries. I also don't recall an unusual amount of transfers from Cincinnati. So while the system may be flawed, I don't know if that's Bob's only problem.

[UrinalCake]

So my guess is that Gerald and McBob are the reason we don't have a perfect score.

Yeah, G is earning a mere $2.1 million and McRoberts $885K, so clearly Duke has not prepared them for the future.

[uh_no]

"This year, eight teams in the tournament graduate 100 percent of both their black players and white players"

Is it really necessary to separate black and white players? Isn't that just asking for trouble?

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6217303

no

[Bluedog]

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6217303

no

The male-female gap is also widening...With females posting much better numbers than their male counterparts. The African American male-African American female gap is tremendously wide.


Yeah, G is earning a mere $2.1 million and McRoberts $885K, so clearly Duke has not prepared them for the future.

While I agree with you, that was also Gary Williams' argument when they posted a 0% graduation rate. He cited the salary of several former players...

[Dukeface88]

Yeah, G is earning a mere $2.1 million and McRoberts $885K, so clearly Duke has not prepared them for the future.

I wasn't saying I disapprove of their decisions (in all honesty, McBob would propbably be better off if he left even earlier), just noting why we aren't posting a "perfect" score.

[Rudy]

I wasn't saying I disapprove of their decisions (in all honesty, McBob would propbably [sic] be better off if he left even earlier), just noting why we aren't posting a "perfect" score.
This probably isn't the place to start that debate again, but I had to laugh at "better off". In his context it can mean no more than "His draft position and therefore his initial contract would have been better." A pretty limited "better off" n'est pas? (He might even have learned the conditional perfect tense better than the usual fan.:rolleyes:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/English_verbs#Overview_of_tenses)

[4decadedukie]

This is my understanding too. I remember when Bob Huggins was the poster boy for atrocious graduation rates Cincinnati, a perfect 0%. As I expected, he complained about the way it was calculated. But as I listened to his detailed complaints, if he was right, there is a problem with how it's calculated. If you have kids transfer away and get a degree somewhere else, that's a 0 in your numerator and a 1 in your denominator. If you have kids who are talented enough for the NBA and leave early for a full time job, same thing (even if they come back and get their degree later - beyond, what, a 6 year window?). I forget the rest of his examples, but the calculation is flawed, or at least, doesn't measure what you might think it does (e.g., that the rate is the compliment of the % who drop out/fail out - it's just not so).


This is a much-discussed DBR topic, and our archives provide considerable depth in this area.

With this said, the FUNDAMENTAL question is whether gifted Division I football and basketball players -- and that is an EXTREMELY small segment of all NCAA student-athletes (including Divisions I, II and III, males and females, and non-revenue sport participants) and an even more insignificant subset of all undergraduates -- are principally “regular” students, or are they essentially semi-pro athletes in development for the NBA and the NFL? Our nation and society have been served VERY well by the traditional paradigm of the student-athlete, who gains much leadership, teamwork, self-discipline, etc. through competitive intercollegiate sports. Further, countless individuals and universities do both (academics and athletics) well; Duke is perfect evidence that these objectives are not mutually exclusive.

However, at many other universities, these goals seem to be largely incompatible, as substantiated by atrocious graduation rates, abnormally high dropout rates, and ludicrous scholastic emphasis (most of Kentucky’s 2010 “one-and-dones” never attending any second semester classes, for example). When a student departs without earning a bachelorette degree -- and there clearly are fine and substantial reasons to do so -- he does not fulfill the academic element of his “implied undergraduate contract.” In some cases, this may mean that a more-fully-qualified and more-dedicated student was denied financial aid and/or admission to accommodate the academically indifferent athlete’s brief college sojourn. Clearly, when dropping out is a critical -- legitimate family problems, financial issues, medical matters, and so forth -- we should all be fully supportive. However, when it primarily results from a self-interested athlete’s “get rich quick” and/or “celebrity” motivations -- and please remember, early departures my seriously undermine an entire team -- I believe it is likelly to place selfishness and greed ahead of long-term societal benefits, ahead of the team’s best interests, and ahead of the long-enduring and highly successful concept of resident American undergarduate education. In addition, it is a distinctly poor role model for teenage youngsters, who will soon be faced with similar issues.

[dairedevil]

Thanks for the input..I didn't mean to start a long discourse, just wanted some clarification about the status of Duke's seniors. Glad to know that they are on target. Looking forward to the rest of the tourney!

[GODUKEGO]

Here is a link to the full study showing each schools graduation rates. This is the most recent report.

http://tidesport.org/Grad%20Rates/2011_Mens_Bball_FINAL.pdf

[miramar]

"This year, eight teams in the tournament graduate 100 percent of both their black players and white players"

Is it really necessary to separate black and white players? Isn't that just asking for trouble?

Unfortunately, a number of schools have done a terrible job of graduating African American athletes, and not just in basketball. While it may be an inconvenient truth, it's a way of keeping schools honest, provided they are interested in providing their players with an education.

Here's what the report says:

The following results from 2011 also are alarming. The GSR data shows:
 30 men’s tournament teams (54 percent, an increase from 49 percent in 2010) have a 30 percentage point or greater gap between the graduation rates of their white and African-American basketball student-athletes.
 36 men’s tournament teams (64 percent, a decrease from 65 percent in 2010) have a 20 percentage point or greater gap between the graduation rates of their white and African-American basketball student-athletes.

[uh_no]

Unfortunately, a number of schools have done a terrible job of graduating African American athletes, and not just in basketball. While it may be an inconvenient truth, it's a way of keeping schools honest, provided they are interested in providing their players with an education.

Here's what the report says:

The following results from 2011 also are alarming. The GSR data shows:
 30 men’s tournament teams (54 percent, an increase from 49 percent in 2010) have a 30 percentage point or greater gap between the graduation rates of their white and African-American basketball student-athletes.
 36 men’s tournament teams (64 percent, a decrease from 65 percent in 2010) have a 20 percentage point or greater gap between the graduation rates of their white and African-American basketball student-athletes.

These stats bother me, for the reasons as pointed before....GH counts against duke here....nolan would have counted against duke had he left....statistically, black guys are more likely to leave early for the draft....now I understand thats not the only thing at work here, but the stats are nonetheless deceiving

[miramar]

I hadn't seen this before, but some media outlets used APR scores to predict the outcome of the NCAA tournament, with the higher score winning each time in order to reward academic achievement.

http://www.propublica.org/article/from-propublicas-sports-desk-predicting-ncaa-champs-using-academic-performa

For example, Texas was supposed to beat Duke in the next round based on a higher APR,but that makes no sense. Only 60% of whites and 17% of blacks graduate at UT, while at Duke it's 100% and 80%.

I thought that Rick Barnes was the new Jerry Tarkanian, but Washington also graduates 17% of African American students, while Kansas State and Arizona are even worse at 14%. How can the administration allow that?

[Buckeye Devil]

"This year, eight teams in the tournament graduate 100 percent of both their black players and white players"

Is it really necessary to separate black and white players? Isn't that just asking for trouble?

Why would this be troublesome? The NCAA has a commercial on TV during the tournament about its athletes and in it is a blip about the fact that black athletes are 10% more likely to graduate (presumably more likely than black non-athletes). I get your point, but apparently it is not that big of a deal.