Maryland Snubbed by NIT?

[BD80]

Is this true? Among the tourney links page on DBR was this:

http://weblogs.baltimoresun.com/sports/thetoydepartment/2011/03/dazed_and_confused_in_college.html

18-14 Terps don't make even the NIT?

Would the correct term be snicker or snigger?

[DevilHorns]

Let's play a ''guess what I'm thinking game.''

16-16 team

5-11 in a respected conference

Do they make the NIT tourney?

Yes, the 2009 UNC Men's BB team did make the NIT.

(BTW, MD is 19-14, and 7-9 in conference).

[gw67]

Not getting an invite to the NIT makes sense to me given the circumstances of fewer at-large openings being available and the fact that the three ex-Big East teams from the ACC (VT, BC and Miami) had a 5-0 record against the Terps. Assuming that Williams doesn't jump to the NBA, I expect that the Terps improve next year if for no other reasons than their freshmen should improve and the incoming players appear to be an upgrade in talent over the senior class that is leaving. One area where the Terps should do some work is in the scheduling of OOC teams. Seven of the OOC teams this past year had RPI's over 250 and home wins over these teams does not help a team's RPI. Many of this year's NCAAT teams had 13 or 14 losses and only won 1 or 2 games against top 50 teams, however, their RPI's were better than Maryland's.

gw67

[Indoor66]

Not getting an invite to the NIT makes sense to me given the circumstances of fewer at-large openings being available and the fact that the three ex-Big East teams from the ACC (VT, BC and Miami) had a 5-0 record against the Terps. Assuming that Williams doesn't jump to the NBA, I expect that the Terps improve next year if for no other reasons than their freshmen should improve and the incoming players appear to be an upgrade in talent over the senior class that is leaving. One area where the Terps should do some work is in the scheduling of OOC teams. Seven of the OOC teams this past year had RPI's over 250 and home wins over these teams does not help a team's RPI. Many of this year's NCAAT teams had 13 or 14 losses and only won 1 or 2 games against top 50 teams, however, their RPI's were better than Maryland's.

gw67

If I was to bet, I would put Williams in the play for pay ranks next year.

[wilson]

Not getting an invite to the NIT makes sense to me given the circumstances of fewer at-large openings being available and the fact that the three ex-Big East teams from the ACC (VT, BC and Miami) had a 5-0 record against the Terps. Assuming that Williams doesn't jump to the NBA, I expect that the Terps improve next year if for no other reasons than their freshmen should improve and the incoming players appear to be an upgrade in talent over the senior class that is leaving. One area where the Terps should do some work is in the scheduling of OOC teams. Seven of the OOC teams this past year had RPI's over 250 and home wins over these teams does not help a team's RPI. Many of this year's NCAAT teams had 13 or 14 losses and only won 1 or 2 games against top 50 teams, however, their RPI's were better than Maryland's.

gw67The NIT selection committee chairman specifically said (http://www.washingtonpost.com/ncaa-basketball-maryland-denied-nit-bid-will-miss-postseason-for-first-time-since-1993-/2011/03/11/ABnWVMU_story.html) that there were fewer at-large bids than usual this year. The advent of automatic qualification ensured that there would be some years when, like this year, an inordinate number of small-conference regular season champions were upset in their conference tournaments and gobbled up NIT bids. This would account for the inclusion of teams like McNeese State, Vermont, Coastal Carolina, and Bethune-Cookman ahead of the Terps.
Maryland was not the only surprising big-name omission. Mississippi State, with a 9-7 SEC record and 17-14 overall mark also missed out, as did Minnesota, who struggled in Big Ten play but likewise finished with a 17-14 overall record (including wins over Purdue, West Virginia, and unc).

[Reilly]

Let's play a ''guess what I'm thinking game.''

16-16 team

5-11 in a respected conference

Do they make the NIT tourney?

Yes, the 2009 UNC Men's BB team did make the NIT.

(BTW, MD is 19-14, and 7-9 in conference).

Small typo: UNC 2010 was in the NCAA.

To add further salt in the wound, in 2011, Maryland is ranked as the #36 team in the kenpom ratings, whereas the final 2010 ratings put UNC as the #60 team. Maryland should have gotten the NIT bid (at least) this year, and UNC did not deserve its home NIT game against W&M last year.

[dukebluesincebirth]

Wow. Not even the NIT for Maryland? A few more seasons like this, and Gary is going to start sweating his job status.

[Indoor66]

Wow. Not even the NIT for Maryland? A few more seasons like this, and Gary is going to start sweating his job status.

He is the guy who knows how to do that.

[Reilly]

The NIT decided it would invite Harvard rather than the Harvard of P.G. County.

[uh_no]

Wow. Not even the NIT for Maryland? A few more seasons like this, and Gary is going to start sweating his job status.

coming off a sweet 16 last year? probably not

[pfrduke]

coming off a sweet 16 last year? probably not

They lost in the round of 32 last year (to Michigan State). Since the title in 2002, here's what their postseasons have looked like:

2011 - none
2010 - 2nd round
2009 - 2nd round
2008 - NIT
2007 - 2nd round
2006 - NIT
2005 - NIT
2004 - 2nd round
2003 - Sweet 16

I agree that I don't think his job status is necessarily in danger, but they've missed 4 of the last 7 tournaments and haven't seen the second weekend in 8 seasons.

[OldPhiKap]

The NIT decided it would invite Harvard rather than the Harvard of P.G. County.

Now that there's funny.

[hudlow]

Let's not try to explain this one away with stats and whys and why nots.

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.

Karma.

[hurleyfor3]

I agree that I don't think his job status is necessarily in danger, but they've missed 4 of the last 7 tournaments and haven't seen the second weekend in 8 seasons.

I wonder what sort of tournament performance Maryland fans would consider equivalent to beating us in any given year. I'll bet many Terp fans think of last year as a sort of success, for example.

[78Devil]

Actually, the post-season stats on Maryland's tournament participation were surprising to me. And disturbing, as I see it as a continued sign of disrespect to our conference.

Unlike alot of folks on this Board, I want ACC teams to do well -- when they are not playing against us. Duke's program cannot stay as strong as it is if the ACC doesn't really slips in prominence. I think most of us believe Gary Williams is a good coach. Ditto many (although certainly not all, e.g. Hewitt) of the other coaches in the ACC. So why is it that the ACC is faltering? Is it an inevitable result of the recruiting parity caused by the wide availability and publicity surrounding high school club and special team athletes? Other reasons. I don't want to hijack this thread, but I think the issues of Maryland's post-season woes, and the fate of our conference, are related....

[pfrduke]

Actually, the post-season stats on Maryland's tournament participation were surprising to me. And disturbing, as I see it as a continued sign of disrespect to our conference.

Unlike alot of folks on this Board, I want ACC teams to do well -- when they are not playing against us. Duke's program cannot stay as strong as it is if the ACC doesn't really slips in prominence. I think most of us believe Gary Williams is a good coach. Ditto many (although certainly not all, e.g. Hewitt) of the other coaches in the ACC. So why is it that the ACC is faltering? Is it an inevitable result of the recruiting parity caused by the wide availability and publicity surrounding high school club and special team athletes? Other reasons. I don't want to hijack this thread, but I think the issues of Maryland's post-season woes, and the fate of our conference, are related....

Well, if you want a sobering stat, here's the last second weekend appearance for each of the ACC teams:

Boston College: 2006
Clemson: 1997
Duke: 2010
Florida St: 1993
Georgia Tech: 2004
Maryland: 2003
Miami: 2000 (never as an ACC member)
UNC: 2009
NC State: 2005
Virginia: 1995
Virginia Tech: 1967 (never as an ACC member)
Wake Forest: 2004

So it's been 5 seasons since anyone other than Duke and Carolina made it out of the first weekend. Since 2001, the ACC has 19 total Sweet 16 appearances - 8 by Duke, 4 by UNC, 3 by Maryland, and the other 4 listed above. Of those 19, 10 came between 2001 and 2004 (2.5 per year); only 9 in the last 6 years (1.5 per year), 7 of which are Duke and UNC.

It's not just Maryland's falling off - the entire conference (outside of Duke and UNC) has been in a postseason funk for half a decade.

[jaytoc]

I wonder what sort of tournament performance Maryland fans would consider equivalent to beating us in any given year. I'll bet many Terp fans think of last year as a sort of success, for example.

I'd say that splitting the season series with the eventual national champions and tieing that team for the best record in the conference regular season is a success.

[UrinalCake]

They'll definitely be improved next year. I don't expect Jordan Williams to go pro - despite playing really well against us, he's undersized as an NBA PF and needs to develop more of an outside shot. Stoglin was coming along well towards the end of the year, plus they've got that big German guy coming in.

[OldPhiKap]

Well, if you want a sobering stat, here's the last second weekend appearance for each of the ACC teams:

Boston College: 2006
Clemson: 1997
Duke: 2010
Florida St: 1993
Georgia Tech: 2004
Maryland: 2003
Miami: 2000 (never as an ACC member)
UNC: 2009
NC State: 2005
Virginia: 1995
Virginia Tech: 1967 (never as an ACC member)
Wake Forest: 2004

So it's been 5 seasons since anyone other than Duke and Carolina made it out of the first weekend. Since 2001, the ACC has 19 total Sweet 16 appearances - 8 by Duke, 4 by UNC, 3 by Maryland, and the other 4 listed above. Of those 19, 10 came between 2001 and 2004 (2.5 per year); only 9 in the last 6 years (1.5 per year), 7 of which are Duke and UNC.

It's not just Maryland's falling off - the entire conference (outside of Duke and UNC) has been in a post expansion funk for half a decade.

Fixed it for you.


(Seriously, thanks for the work on that -- very sobering.)

[Highlander]

Not getting an invite to the NIT makes sense to me given the circumstances of fewer at-large openings being available and the fact that the three ex-Big East teams from the ACC (VT, BC and Miami) had a 5-0 record against the Terps. Assuming that Williams doesn't jump to the NBA, I expect that the Terps improve next year if for no other reasons than their freshmen should improve and the incoming players appear to be an upgrade in talent over the senior class that is leaving. One area where the Terps should do some work is in the scheduling of OOC teams. Seven of the OOC teams this past year had RPI's over 250 and home wins over these teams does not help a team's RPI. Many of this year's NCAAT teams had 13 or 14 losses and only won 1 or 2 games against top 50 teams, however, their RPI's were better than Maryland's.

gw67

Oh. JORDAN Williams. My first thought reading your post was "Why would sweaty go to the pro's after two decades at Maryland, his alma mater?"

[tieguy]

post-expansion funk

You know, I hate expansion as much or more than the next guy, but expansion did not hire and retain Paul Hewitt, Dave Leitao, and Sydney Lowe. Expansion did not cause Gary to become lazy about recruiting. Expansion did not cause Wake to have the worst league team in decades and drag down everyone else's RPI. Expansion did not cause UNC to go to the NIT.

Yes, the ACC has sucked of late, and yes, expansion sucks, but other than a very small contribution to a weakened RPI possibly contributing to slightly decreased seeding, the two have no relationship to each other.

[4decadedukie]

I must begin this post by acknowledging that:
a) I have lived in suburban DC for 29 years;
b) I am as disgusted, as I am inundated, by the ceaseless local mantras:

• That the University of Maryland superb university,
• That they are Duke’s rival in essentially all relevant arenas,
• That their admissions and scholastic standards are among the nation's top-tier,
• That their basketball teams are perpetual national contenders and that Coach Williams is every bit as accomplished as any other Division I Head Coach,
• That their student-athletes excel academically,
• That their on- and off-court performance is never criminal or thuggish,
• And that their fans, alumni and boosters perfectly comport themselves (especially after when Duke visits College Park);c) I have repeatedly found the assertions in "b" (above) to be ludicrous, virtually baseless, and fundamentally lacking in truth;
d) I believe that Gary Williams and UMd's senior leadership have tacitly condoned frequent egregious and criminal conduct, associated with Duke games in ComCast and Cole, because they believe it will improve their probability of victory;
e) I further observe that the DC news media has been complicit, by rarely -- if ever -- highlighting the organized and systemic boorishness and lack of sportsmanship that are the pervasive constant norm for Maryland - Duke home men's basketball games.

For these reasons, among others, I was delighted to see Maryland excluded from the NCAA -- and even the NIT -- Tournaments; their basketball record (as well as their arrogance and contemptible incivility) makes this outcome highly appropriate.

[Indoor66]

I must begin this post by acknowledging that:
a) I have lived in suburban DC for 29 years;
b) I am as disgusted, as I am inundated, by the ceaseless local mantras:

• That the University of Maryland superb university,
• That they are Duke’s rival in essentially all relevant arenas,
• That their admissions and scholastic standards are among the nation's top-tier,
• That their basketball teams are perpetual national contenders and that Coach Williams is every bit as accomplished as any other Division I Head Coach,
• That their student-athletes excel academically,
• That their on- and off-court performance is never criminal or thuggish,
• And that their fans, alumni and boosters perfectly comport themselves (especially after when Duke visits College Park);c) I have repeatedly found the assertions in "b" (above) to be ludicrous, virtually baseless, and fundamentally lacking in truth;
d) I believe that Gary Williams and UMd's senior leadership have tacitly condoned frequent egregious and criminal conduct, associated with Duke games in ComCast and Cole, because they believe it will improve their probability of victory;
e) I further observe that the DC news media has been complicit, by rarely -- if ever -- highlighting the organized and systemic boorishness and lack of sportsmanship that are the pervasive constant norm for Maryland - Duke home men's basketball games.

For these reasons, among others, I was delighted to see Maryland excluded from the NCAA -- and even the NIT -- Tournaments; their basketball record (as well as their arrogance and contemptible incivility) makes this outcome highly appropriate.

How do you really feel about MD?

[hurleyfor3]

Yes, the ACC has sucked of late, and yes, expansion sucks, but other than a very small contribution to a weakened RPI possibly contributing to slightly decreased seeding, the two have no relationship to each other.

Except that expansion may have caused a subtle shift towards putting greater resources into football at some schools. Not necessarily to the exclusion of basketball, mind you, and not necessarily in a way that has been successful, but it has arguably occurred at GT, Wake, State and even unc (expansion of Kenan).

[OldPhiKap]

You know, I hate expansion as much or more than the next guy, but expansion did not hire and retain Paul Hewitt, Dave Leitao, and Sydney Lowe. Expansion did not cause Gary to become lazy about recruiting. Expansion did not cause Wake to have the worst league team in decades and drag down everyone else's RPI. Expansion did not cause UNC to go to the NIT.

Yes, the ACC has sucked of late, and yes, expansion sucks, but other than a very small contribution to a weakened RPI possibly contributing to slightly decreased seeding, the two have no relationship to each other.

OTOH, expansion diluted the product. Expansion brought in schools with poor basketball teams at schools that emphasize football over basketball. Expansion brought the loss of round robin scheduling where bad coaches were exposed more readily. Expansion hurt long-existing rivalries (like Duke-Wake, Duke-State and others) in favor of games between teams with no historical ties or rivalries. Expansion made a good product duller, and the attendance conference-wide reflects that I think.

True, expansion did not cause all of the woes we have. Skip Prosser dying and leaving Leitao as coach, or the debacle hiring of NC State and GT, stand on their own. But for every Leitao I'll raise you a Bob Staak. For a lazy Gary, I'll raise you a Bob Wade.

So, I think we agree that there are a number of factors at play. We will have to agree to disagree on whether expansion helps, or hurts, the situation.

[BD80]

I must begin this post by acknowledging that:
a) I have lived in suburban DC for 29 years;
b) I am as disgusted, as I am inundated, by the ceaseless local mantras:

• That the University of Maryland superb university,
• That they are Duke’s rival in essentially all relevant arenas,
• That their admissions and scholastic standards are among the nation's top-tier,
• That their basketball teams are perpetual national contenders and that Coach Williams is every bit as accomplished as any other Division I Head Coach,
• That their student-athletes excel academically,
• That their on- and off-court performance is never criminal or thuggish,
• And that their fans, alumni and boosters perfectly comport themselves (especially after when Duke visits College Park);c) ...
e) I further observe that the DC news media has been complicit, ...

You mean to suggest that the press in DC is biased in reporting the state of affairs there?

Shocking, truly shocking ...

[tieguy]

Except that expansion may have caused a subtle shift towards putting greater resources into football at some schools.

And also brought greater resources by dumping a boatload of cash into those same departments via the football TV contract. Even if some programs are getting a slightly smaller slice of the pie (which I doubt), the pie is huge and growing. It is *highly* doubtful that any basketball team in the conference has a smaller budget now than it did pre-expansion, though I'd be happy to look at numbers if anyone has them.

And this is true in facilities too- for every expansion of a football stadium (Kenan) I can show you a nice purpose-built arena (Miami) and a total facilities revamp (GT). And of course UVa, MD, and State have had new facilities built for them in the past decade, so they aren't exactly in burning need for facilities work.

I'll grant that the idea that the loss of the round robin doesn't "expose" bad coaches as quickly is an interesting one. Coaches do still seem to be getting fired pretty quickly, though- Dino and Leitao got four years, Sydney got, what, five? Hewitt took 11, but you can chalk that up to the FF he made, I think, not the round robin. Would be interesting to measure average tenure at firing going back a bit.

If there is a solid argument to be made here, I think it has to boil down to ADs being distracted by football (really, they all manage minor empires nowadays) and therefore making bad coaching hires. No idea how to quantify that, though.

[4decadedukie]

How do you really feel about MD?

Our noble moderators would appropriately chastise me were I fully to report my true feelings.
:)

[Utley]

http://www.xtranormal.com/watch/11394591/

[78Devil]

OMG -- That was the funniest thing I have seen in forever!

[Neals384]

They didn't even mqke the CBI!
http://www.gazellegroup.com/events/cbi/cbi11_bracket.pdf

[4decadedukie]

Large signs for next year's Maryland game in Cameron that state: NIT = No Invitation Team