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Rich
03-14-2011, 08:38 AM
I know there was a previous thread about Jalen Rose's comments, but I thought I'd start a new one since the documentary aired last night. As an '88 Duke grad, I was not a fan of the Fab 5, their trash-talking, unwarranted swagger, and dress, but I found the documentary last night to be excellent and well-done. I believe the credits showed that three of the five produced the documentary, so you have to expect it to represent them in a more positive light and is perhaps a bit one-sided, but I thought Jalen Rose came across as a really honest guy with an interesting story to tell. He did not mince words and I think, as a whole, the documentary captured the emotional mindset of the players and coach Fisher. I thought the "timeout" issue was addressed well and showed how much of an effect it had on Chris Webber's emotional psyche.

I also thought the end of the documentary was pretty poignant. Like them or not, you can't argue with the effect they had on the college basketball landscape including the dress, the trash talking, and the early departures to the NBA, all of which became the norm. As Rose noted in the final clip, college basketball fans remember the names of the Fab 5, but don't remember the names of the Carolina starting five that beat them in 1993.

Did anyobody else watch it? I'm interested in your thoughts.

roywhite
03-14-2011, 08:50 AM
I saw it; was prepared to dislike the players and the story, but I thought it was an interesting, well prepared piece.

Chris Webber is the guy that comes off the worst, immature and to this day not willing to admit his mistakes. It is unclear just how much money he took from Ed Martin (and others?); Jalen Rose says the extent of money was for "pocket money" or expenditures on clothes, shoes, restaurant meals, and small ($100) monetary gifts. But Webber is reported to have accepted over $200,000; columnist Mitch Albom, who covered the Fab 5 closely, says Webber certainly didn't live like a kid who had received that much money; the speculation is that Martin made large payments to Webber essentially after Webber's college playing time, but before he was actually a pro.

I've greatly enjoyed the whole 30 for 30 series; some very interesting stories, and generally well done.

jipops
03-14-2011, 08:55 AM
I've gotten through half of it and so far it is terrific. Jalen's commentary is by far the centerpiece. Love him or hate him, he and the rest of the Fab 5 were a representation of the evolution of college basketball and really brought a lot of social context to the college basketball world. They were pretty much picking up where the '91 UNLV team left off. I actually liked the Fab 5 back in those early 90's. Contrary to the popular notion I thought they played a terrific team game. Few teams during that period shared the ball as well as they did and had such deep chemistry.

And don't forget, Duke had a really good shot at landing Webber during his recruitment.

SCMatt33
03-14-2011, 09:16 AM
I didn't think that Jalen's commentary on Duke was nearly as inflammatory as the promo's made it out to be (besides the stuff that needed to be bleeped out). Really, the worst of it was all that was advertised (should I have expected different?), and I was somewhat surprised to see how much credit he gave Duke for the title game. Normally, someone who is bitter will say that they had a bad night, but were the better team, or that they could have beaten Duke if they didn't happen to be really hot at the end. Rose, though, pretty much said that Duke was definitely a better team than they were and didn't give any qualifiers to whether or not they could have won. They weren't as conciliatory towards UNC as they all said that they fully expected to beat UNC and thought they were better (in case anybody thought that they were just being humble for the camera).

4decadedukie
03-14-2011, 09:23 AM
Like them or not, you can't argue with the effect they had on the college basketball landscape including the dress, the trash talking, and the early departures to the NBA, all of which became the norm.

We need, in my opinion, clearly to distinguish between beneficial and detrimental consequences and results. Certainly, the Fab Five were instrumental in all the areas you cited -- and more -- but I believe these were adverse modifications to traditional college basketball, making today's too frequent on- and off-court hoggishness, criminality, ludicrous academics, one-and-dones, and so forth "acceptable." Lots of individuals and groups leave legacies; the germane question, however, is whether their bequests are positive or negative.

duke79
03-14-2011, 09:28 AM
I know there was a previous thread about Jalen Rose's comments, but I thought I'd start a new one since the documentary aired last night. As an '88 Duke grad, I was not a fan of the Fab 5, their trash-talking, unwarranted swagger, and dress, but I found the documentary last night to be excellent and well-done. I believe the credits showed that three of the five produced the documentary, so you have to expect it to represent them in a more positive light and is perhaps a bit one-sided, but I thought Jalen Rose came across as a really honest guy with an interesting story to tell. He did not mince words and I think, as a whole, the documentary captured the emotional mindset of the players and coach Fisher. I thought the "timeout" issue was addressed well and showed how much of an effect it had on Chris Webber's emotional psyche.

I also thought the end of the documentary was pretty poignant. Like them or not, you can't argue with the effect they had on the college basketball landscape including the dress, the trash talking, and the early departures to the NBA, all of which became the norm. As Rose noted in the final clip, college basketball fans remember the names of the Fab 5, but don't remember the names of the Carolina starting five that beat them in 1993.

Did anyobody else watch it? I'm interested in your thoughts.

I too watched the documentary last night and I have to admit that, like you, I thought it was well done and had an interesting story to tell about a player's perspective of college basketball. I was prepared NOT to like Jalen Rose and some of the other members of the Fab Five, based on the recent stories in the press about their "hating Duke." But once I watched the documentary in its entirety, I almost felt sorry for Jalen and some of the Fab Five members, who, undoubtedly, had a visceral hatred of Duke at the time that was really born (as Jalen admitted in the documentary) of jealousy and envy of the more privileged life that Grant Hil, Christian Laettner, and some of the other Duke players had led, compared to their hardscrabble upbringing in the inner city. I have no doubt that many of the Fab Five, with the exception of Chris Webber who apparently was heavily recruited by Duke (and thank God he did not come to Duke), sincerely felt that Duke was snubbing them in recruiting (and other players like them) because they did not fit into the "Duke mold" (which may be true, frankly) and they were mature enough and perceptive enough at the time to take this snub personally. It sort of reminds me that we might have to alter that old saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" to "Hell has no fury like a star high school basketball player scorned." Although I'm not sure the players interviewed still have the same level of hatred of Duke (maybe just a strong dislike?), I thought it was interesting that all of them had to admit a grudging respect for the success that Duke has had over the years on the basketball floor. I also thought it was interesting how when they played Duke for the first time, they all thought Christian Laettner and Grant Hill and some of the other Duke players were "soft" and overrrated (because they were not inner city players) and how surprised they actually were when the game started and they suddenly realized that Christian and Grant and the other Duke players COULD play basketball and were as tough as any of them (and subsequently kicked their butts during the game).
I was also struck by how they seemed somewhat bitter to this day that during their time as Michigan players, they were very aware that Michigan was making huge money off of the "Fab Five phenomenon" while they were financially starving the entire time and that they did not seem to have serious second thoughts about taking money from Ed Davis for their day to day spending needs. It was sort of like the "anything to survive" attitude that is hard to argue with unless you are in their shoes.
Finally, I thought Steve Fisher came off as a nice guy but somewhat clueless about what was really going on with the Fab Five and almost in over his head at the time in coaching the team. I actually felt sorry for him. I loved his interview at the time where a media person asked him if he knew any of the music that the Fab Five was listening to and he smiled and said "No, I listen to Peter, Paul, and Mary". LOL

hurleyfor3
03-14-2011, 09:44 AM
Wasn't perfect, but I enjoyed it.

I'm a '93 alumnus, so they were part of my formative basketball-following years. From a Duke standpoint the story starts during the '91 season, when Webber attended a game in Cameron and we made several cheers acknowledging his presence. Looking back, I don't think were ever seriously in the running for him.

The most lasting impression I took was the team's process of growing up, from doing 18-year-old kid things to becoming increasingly cognizant of the people around them making money at their expense. Still, they stayed together as a team and very badly wanted to win a national championship. That Webber didn't participate says a lot about how important it was two decades later.

Nobody really addressed the main gameplay-related complaint about the Fab Five, which was that they played to the level of their opponents. Most of the participants were the players themselves or people sympahetic to them, so you're not reminded of this.

Immediately after Webber called timeout, he says something angrily either to the Michigan bench or a teammate. I'd still like to know what he said; may have been something like "somebody told me to call timeout". I still blame him for doing it, but without Webber participating that part of the story is incomplete.

I don't blame anyone for taking money, and have no reason not to believe what Mitch Albom says. My views on this kind of thing are probably more liberal than those of most others here. And they're right: nobody's going to forget the Fab Five, whereas I can't think of a reason to remember Heinrik Rodl.

wilson
03-14-2011, 09:55 AM
It sort of reminds me that we might have to alter that old saying "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" to "Hell has no fury like a star high school basketball player scorned."Very good post, with lots of good points.
However, I'm willing to bet that hell's fury is worse than going a cumulative 0-5 against the scorner.

Duke79UNLV77
03-14-2011, 10:01 AM
Jalen Rose says the extent of money was for "pocket money" or expenditures on clothes, shoes, restaurant meals, and small ($100) monetary gifts.

This is a classic case of admitting as little as you possibly can, and only after getting caught. A friend and former colleague of mine went to law school at Michigan and was friends with several players on that team, particularly Juwan Howard. They got free apartments, free groceries, new SUVs every year (which eventually started their downfall when one was in an accident during a recruit's visit). A booster helped Webber quietly get by a youthful indiscretion. The players also had no respect for Fisher. It was a dirty, dirty program.

Much of this had to be apparrent if one were looking. But, then again, local media doesn't want to bring down the big state school program.

pamtar
03-14-2011, 10:05 AM
We need, in my opinion, clearly to distinguish between beneficial and detrimental consequences and results. Certainly, the Fab Five were instrumental in all the areas you cited -- and more -- but I believe these were adverse modifications to traditional college basketball, making today's too frequent on- and off-court hoggishness, criminality, ludicrous academics, one-and-dones, and so forth "acceptable." Lots of individuals and groups leave legacies; the germane question, however, is whether their bequests are positive or negative.

Very good point, but I tend to disagree with the assesment that the Fab Five's actions were entirely detrimental to traditional college basketball. Don't get me wrong, some of it was. But I think the nation as a whole was breaking from 'tradition' at the time and it just happened to be personified by a basketball team.

All of the Fab Five, aside from Webber IMO, have gone on to excel in professional and philanthropic endeavors after basketball. I think the way people perceive them has always been clouded by misinformation - I have certainly been guilty of doing so.

pamtar
03-14-2011, 10:12 AM
Also, ESPN First Take has Jimmy King on their "First Down" segment. Fairly interesting commentary touching on the documentary, NPOY (he picks Nolan), and the Uncle Tom comment...

It should air repetitively through late afternoon.

somf4eva
03-14-2011, 10:27 AM
I dont post here much, but I thought I would weigh in on this documentary.

I thought it was very well done. I was too young to be aware of the Fab 5 being born in 1985, but I have always been aware of "The Timeout." To see this documentary filled in alot of holes for me, and made me appreciate Duke's repeat in 1992 so much more.

The 2 hour show itself went a long way to convince me that college players should be compensated more than for an education. Don't get me wrong, I still have a problem with paying college athletes because it would never be fair, seeing that stat of Michigan revenue going from 1mil to 10mil in one year floored me. I came away feeling like these 5 TEENAGERS were exploited. Now I dont know how much money any of them received, or of their activities away from the court, but after watching this(and only this i might add), I realized how much more than a game College Basketball really is. Money is behind everything and I wonder how much of a role it plays today and how prevalent it is at Duke(I hope not at all).

I thought the 4 players came away as pretty honest on this show, but I realized they had hands in making it. I am sure Chris Webber watched it and wonder what his reaction was. Should he apologize? I dont know.

Anyway, I also appreciated reading everyone else's responses. Thanks!

CameronBlue
03-14-2011, 10:36 AM
We need, in my opinion, clearly to distinguish between beneficial and detrimental consequences and results. Certainly, the Fab Five were instrumental in all the areas you cited -- and more -- but I believe these were adverse modifications to traditional college basketball, making today's too frequent on- and off-court hoggishness, criminality, ludicrous academics, one-and-dones, and so forth "acceptable." Lots of individuals and groups leave legacies; the germane question, however, is whether their bequests are positive or negative.

Whoa. That's a lot to lay at the feet of the Fab 5. College basketball is responsible for its own ills. Over-zealous AAU coaches, unscrupulous agents, shoe and apparel manufacturers like Nike, the NBA, athletic departments that function as automonous business enterprises, booster clubs that build domed stadiums and offer coaches supplemental income have given birth to College Basketball, Inc. They're responsible for the permissive nature of college athletics far more than the Fab 5.

wsb3
03-14-2011, 10:56 AM
I caught part of a game this weekend that Brent and Bobby Knight were doing and the promo came up for the Fab 5 special and Brent mentioned it with a slight chuckle and Knight said something to the effect of, don't get me started on that bunch. It was tone more than what he said that let you know what he thought of them.

I can't help but feel sorry for Weber everytime I see that play. Ironic that El Deano won both of his national championships in part by the two biggest gaffes I can recall in national championships.

CameronBlue
03-14-2011, 11:06 AM
I caught part of a game this weekend that Brent and Bobby Knight were doing and the promo came up for the Fab 5 special and Brent mentioned it with a slight chuckle and Knight said something to the effect of, don't get me started on that bunch. It was tone more than what he said that let you know what he thought of them.

I can't help but feel sorry for Weber everytime I see that play. Ironic that El Deano won both of his national championships in part by the two biggest gaffes I can recall in national championships.

An interesting point brought out by the documentary I hadn't known was that several players on the bench yelled to Webber to call time out and tape was shown with one player, hands over head, giving the T signal. Still doesn't excuse Webber's mistake but Fisher should've done a better job controlling his bench.

dukeblue1206
03-14-2011, 11:06 AM
Bobby Hurley was just on The Dan Patrick show and was asked about the Fab 5 documentary and what he thought of some of the comments from the Michigan players about Duke. He gave some good little subtle return trash talk to the Michigan guys. It was pretty awesome. The best was when Dan asked who talked a lot of trash to him from Michigan and Hurley said something to the effect of "Jimmy King didn't think I had any game but you would think he learned better after I dropped 26 on them the first time we played."

hurleyfor3
03-14-2011, 11:10 AM
"Jimmy King didn't think I had any game but you would think he learned better after I dropped 26 on them the first time we played."

3 and 0. :D

LSanders
03-14-2011, 11:13 AM
Hurley was on the Dan Patrick Show talking about the documentary:

http://www.danpatrick.com/2011/03/14/bobby-hurley-on-fab-five-dukes-chances-in-tournament/

A couple of gems:

- Hurley talked about how Duke recruited Webber but not Rose. "He would've had a hard time hitting the floor. He wouldn't have gotten my spot, and Thomas Hill would've had something to say about his."

- When asked about trash talk, Hurley said he was irritated about Jimmy King's comments that he (Hurley) had no game. "You'd think after I put up 26 on them in the first game that they'd have figured out I knew how to play."

AlaskanAssassin
03-14-2011, 11:49 AM
Do you guys think this documentary can have a negative impact on recruiting? Because I wouldn't be surprised if these upcoming kids start following their tactics shown in the video. As a result, they'll also dislike Duke and don't want to be associated with (or to be known as) 'uncle toms'.

cameroncrazy3104
03-14-2011, 11:56 AM
This morning on ESPN first take, Jimmy King was on to justify the Fab Five's hatred of Duke. Basically they said that they hate Duke because they don't recruit what he called "brothas." Seconds later the host of the show started running off black players and King was stunned looking for words.

So what I took out of it was the five guys based their hatred on what they thought were facts.

He went on trying to justify his beliefs by saying that he was trying to say that black players who went to Duke were "sell outs." Giving up on their herritage. In which Skip Bayless responded asking how can you criticize guys like Grant Hill or Elton Brand for going to a school that also provides a good education.

Throughout the segment King was stumbling over his words.

cato
03-14-2011, 12:05 PM
Do you guys think this documentary can have a negative impact on recruiting? Because I wouldn't be surprised if these upcoming kids start following their tactics shown in the video. As a result, they'll also dislike Duke and don't want to be associated with (or to be known as) 'uncle toms'.

I doubt there is anything in the documentary that recruits don't hear regularly.

hurley1
03-14-2011, 12:10 PM
We need, in my opinion, clearly to distinguish between beneficial and detrimental consequences and results. Certainly, the Fab Five were instrumental in all the areas you cited -- and more -- but I believe these were adverse modifications to traditional college basketball, making today's too frequent on- and off-court hoggishness, criminality, ludicrous academics, one-and-dones, and so forth "acceptable." Lots of individuals and groups leave legacies; the germane question, however, is whether their bequests are positive or negative.

I completely agree with you, and I believe the game of college basketball would have been much better served if the fab 5 never existed. The fab 5 was a product that was created by Ted Martin to benifit his huge gambling and racketering business at the expense of college basketball. These players were willing participants in this illegal venture. I saw this documentary as an attempt to sterilize a very dirty situation and give credibility to something that had absolutely no credibility. I found the documentary itself to be damning of the fab 5 if you didn't get caught up in the hype that it was gift wrapped in. For example, a 16 day trip to Europe as soon as March madness was done. Obviously these players did not attend class, and those of us who had a front row seat to this trip into the gutter remember that they didn't. Also Rose's admission that he RESEARCHED the personal lives of the players he competed against and ridiculed them for family tradegies and family problems. Just imagine if they were playing today and he went after Andre over his horrendous tradegy, that is what these people did. That is the kind of situation they exploited with their trash talking, I have no respect for that.
What makes Duke basketball so special to me is that there has never been a time that any player has walked on a court in a Duke uniform that was undeserving to wear that uniform, both from their ability on the court as well as in the classroom. To me , that is the foundation that makes Duke basketball one of the most respected institutions that exists anywhere. And, that is the type of values that the fab 5 and those who propelled them could care less about. It also means alot to me that the end of the road for this gambling experiment was found on tobacco road, Duke and N.C are the 2 teams that exposed this bunch for what they really were......alot of hype and not champions.

Bojangles4Eva
03-14-2011, 12:28 PM
While I obviously don't agree with what he said, I think Jalen (spelling? don't feel like looking it up) Rose summerized what King was trying to say much better in the fab 5 documentary. He was talking about how the black players who were popular in the eyes of the media, which Grant Hill was the only example, were from more well to do families and not from neighborhoods/backrounds like his. He said that Hills father was a pro athelete, his parents went to college and mom roomed with Hillary Clinton, and he felt that Hills pedigree vs. his own was a deciding factor in why a school like Duke did not recruit him (at least thats what I inferred, maybe I got that totally wrong).

Basically, the insinuation is that in the eyes of the media, Duke recruits black players from families that are upper-middle class, and not from low income households. While this statement is rediculous, I can understand why so many people come to this false conclusion. When looking at some of Dukes notable black commits in the last few years (Rivers, Irving, Curry, Smith, Henderson, to name a few), many come from families with professional (or college) BBall backgrounds, therefore went to college, and fall into at least the middle class demographic.

Looking in Dukes recruiting using that sort of tunnel vision, its easy or an uninformed college BBall fan to support Kings argument, as so many do. However, the critical flaws in this argument is 1) they don't look at the rest of Dukes recruits which did not fall into this category 2) they don't aknowledge that other schools recruited the same players which committed to Duke, but somehow avoid the criticism that Duke gets (UNC comes to mind) and 3) maybe (just maybe) Coach K is actually a great coach, and parents of recruits with basketball backgrounds want their kids to go to Duke.

hurley1
03-14-2011, 12:44 PM
While I obviously don't agree with what he said, I think Jalen (spelling? don't feel like looking it up) Rose summerized what King was trying to say much better in the fab 5 documentary. He was talking about how the black players who were popular in the eyes of the media, which Grant Hill was the only example, were from more well to do families and not from neighborhoods/backrounds like his. He said that Hills father was a pro athelete, his parents went to college and mom roomed with Hillary Clinton, and he felt that Hills pedigree vs. his own was a deciding factor in why a school like Duke did not recruit him (at least thats what I inferred, maybe I got that totally wrong).

Basically, the insinuation is that in the eyes of the media, Duke recruits black players from families that are upper-middle class, and not from low income households. While this statement is rediculous, I can understand why so many people come to this false conclusion. When looking at some of Dukes notable black commits in the last few years (Rivers, Irving, Curry, Smith, Henderson, to name a few), many come from families with professional (or college) BBall backgrounds, therefore went to college, and fall into at least the middle class demographic.

Looking in Dukes recruiting using that sort of tunnel vision, its easy or an uninformed college BBall fan to support Kings argument, as so many do. However, the critical flaws in this argument is 1) they don't look at the rest of Dukes recruits which did not fall into this category 2) they don't aknowledge that other schools recruited the same players which committed to Duke, but somehow avoid the criticism that Duke gets (UNC comes to mind) and 3) maybe (just maybe) Coach K is actually a great coach, and parents of recruits with basketball backgrounds want their kids to go to Duke.

one reality that these fab 5 guys aren't willing to admit is this.......all of them except maybe webber would have ridden the pine alot at duke.....even howard would have been behind grant....don't forget, they never won anything and lost a national championship because they paid no attention to their so called coach.....the main reason duke would have not recruited them is......1- duke doesn't pay players and duke doesn't do business with bookies....2- they wouldn't have made the grades at duke to stay in school.....

BD80
03-14-2011, 12:45 PM
Ease up on Jimmy. He is describing the way he felt and feels. At the time Duke was a predominantly white team, lead by two of the palest individuals to ever play the game. The featured black player was the son of two Ivy League graduates. Duke through the 80s featured players like Danny Ferry, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, Quinn Snyder. Duke was celebrated for knocking off undefeated UNLV who preceded the Fab Five as the "street" team, and who the Fab Five rooted for when they were in high school. In the show, Jalen admitted that much of his feeling about Duke and Grant Hill was Grant having a famous pro athlete father that was involved in his life, whereas Jalen's Dad, NBA #1 pick Jimmy Walker, completely abandoned Jalen and his mother.

Black players that went to Duke later don't really pertain to the issue except to the extent he may still feel that way. Jimmy admitted the nature of his feelings when he conceded that he would have considered "his brother" Webber a sell-out if he had chosen Duke.

Jimmy was a good kid and seems to have matured into a pretty good guy. Jalen is the one who amazes me, he really was a punk with a chip on his shoulder, and yet he has matured nicely. Webber continues to be the one who refuses to believe the rules should apply to him. He had so much potential as a person, can you imagine how different he would have turned out with a couple of years under Coach K?

AlaskanAssassin
03-14-2011, 12:47 PM
Don't forget, grades also play a big role as to why they are not recruited. IIRC, Jalen pointed out that the reason the 2 white guys were on their team is to keep the gpa's up. He may have been joking, but still some truth.

hurley1
03-14-2011, 12:52 PM
Ease up on Jimmy. He is describing the way he felt and feels. At the time Duke was a predominantly white team, lead by two of the palest individuals to ever play the game. The featured black player was the son of two Ivy League graduates. Duke through the 80s featured players like Danny Ferry, Mark Alarie, Jay Bilas, Quinn Snyder. Duke was celebrated for knocking off undefeated UNLV who preceded the Fab Five as the "street" team, and who the Fab Five rooted for when they were in high school. In the show, Jalen admitted that much of his feeling about Duke and Grant Hill was Grant having a famous pro athlete father that was involved in his life, whereas Jalen's Dad, NBA #1 pick Jimmy Walker, completely abandoned Jalen and his mother.

Black players that went to Duke later don't really pertain to the issue except to the extent he may still feel that way. Jimmy admitted the nature of his feelings when he conceded that he would have considered "his brother" Webber a sell-out if he had chosen Duke.

Jimmy was a good kid and seems to have matured into a pretty good guy. Jalen is the one who amazes me, he really was a punk with a chip on his shoulder, and yet he has matured nicely. Webber continues to be the one who refuses to believe the rules should apply to him. He had so much potential as a person, can you imagine how different he would have turned out with a couple of years under Coach K?

the truth is this......it doesn't matter who grant hill's mama and daddy are.....when he was on the basketball court, he was the best player on the floor ( according to coach k )......better than hurley and better than laettner....and better than anyone in the fab 5.....it is what it is....

BD80
03-14-2011, 01:01 PM
the truth is this......it doesn't matter who grant hill's mama and daddy are.....when he was on the basketball court, he was the best player on the floor ( according to coach k )......better than hurley and better than laettner....and better than anyone in the fab 5.....it is what it is....

No question. Funny thing, it SHOULD have been Webber. He had the perfect basketball body and skill set, except for one muscular deficiency - no heart.

cruxer
03-14-2011, 01:08 PM
If you watch the UNLV documentary on HBO (also excellent!) I think you might gain some perspective on Jalen's perspective as an 18-year-old. After all, we played UNLV and the Fab 5 in the Final 4 in consecutive years.

While I still abhor the language Jalen used and the aspersions it casts on Duke's black players, watching the Vegas documentary reminded me how absolutely offensive the characterizations of the 2 Final 4 meetings between Duke and UNLV were. Even as a huge Duke fan, as a young black teenager I couldn't help but to be absolutely turned off by the media's characterization of every player on UNLV as a thug and every player on Duke as an angel.

Tark's program certainly didn't always pass the smell test, but often that was a reflection on him, rather than his players. As history as proven, Laettner had his "thuggish" moments (much as I love him, the foot stomp vs UK was unacceptable) and Greg Anthony, Stacy Augmon, and Larry Johnson (gold tooth and all!) proved to be nothing other than spectacular college players and pretty good pros. IMHO Anthony is one of the best analysts on TV today. He is and was certainly far more articulate than Anderson Hunt was, yet I seem to recall that Hunt was given the nationally televised interview after their loss to us in '91.

-c

mr. synellinden
03-14-2011, 02:00 PM
the truth is this......it doesn't matter who grant hill's mama and daddy are.....when he was on the basketball court, he was the best player on the floor ( according to coach k )......better than hurley and better than laettner....and better than anyone in the fab 5.....it is what it is....

The most intriguing thing about the documentary to me was the part when Mitch Albom was discussing Chris Webber and suggesting that he never felt comfortable with the overall personna of the Fab Five and and struggled with "fitting in" with that. I also thought it was interesting how Rose compared playing in a Prep school league versus playing in the public school league (by the way, that intentional foul they showed was vicious).

In the way that Rose and King characterized it, Webber was a Duke-type guy - which is consistent with how Albom described him. He was heavily recruited by Duke (there was a lot of speculation that Duke was going to get Parks, Alan Henderson and Webber, which would have been a class as spectacular as the Fab Five). I will say that Webber was perhaps the most talented player I've seen during the last thirty years. He put up 51 pts and 26 rebounds one night in the NBA and had so many eye-popping stat lines. Like other posters, I wonder what his career would have been like had he come to Duke. First, imagine the 92 team with Webber, Laettner, Hurley and Hill. Imagine the 93 team with Parks, Webber, Hill and Hurley. I also can't help but think his NBA career would might have been different, although he did face a lot of injuries.

kgills7
03-14-2011, 02:02 PM
Duke was expected to beat the Fab Five. They were a mature championship team playing against all freshmen. What made the Fab Five unique is that they were 18 and 19 year old kids playing against the Blue Devils in the final game of the basketball season.

The hate that Wolverines team had for the Blue Devils at that time was the same intensity they had for both Ohio St and Michigan St. There dislike for Duke had an added dimension. Those guys were everything that Duke were not except when it came to playing the game of basketball well. Unfortunately, too may out there paid more attention to the off the court stuff without giving the Fab Five credit for what they were doing once the whistle blew. I think that the emphasis on the dilsike for the Blue Devils were to show how they came around to respect Duke's program. The one thing I got from watching the show last night was how an eighteen year inner city kids viewed the world twenty years ago and how America viewed them.

Interesting interview with Rose, King and Jackson on ESPN 1st antd 10
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=williams/110307_best_fab_fives

Wanted to correct the subject because of grammatical error, but I can't once submitted.

Gthoma2a
03-14-2011, 02:16 PM
I remember feeling terrible for Chris Webber after that championship game. That was highlighted again last night, but there is no doubt we should never recruit guys like that. By that I just mean guys who don't realize that it is a school, not just a launching pad to the NBA. We get guys there, but we expect them to grow as individuals on top of playing well. Jalen seems to have matured, but I don't think that happened until he got into the league and started seeing that on that level, he wasn't the big man on campus anymore.

Regenman
03-14-2011, 02:50 PM
I was most interested in the amount of hate mail from Michigan "fans". Hard not to have a chip on your shoulder when stuff like that is originating from your own side.

allenmurray
03-14-2011, 03:18 PM
Are folks aware that Rose produced the documentary? Imagine how differently it might have portrayed the whole thing if it hadn't been produced by one of the players on the team.

hurley1
03-14-2011, 04:03 PM
I was most interested in the amount of hate mail from Michigan "fans". Hard not to have a chip on your shoulder when stuff like that is originating from your own side.

it was all well deserved.....michigan was as respected as anybody before this happened, and they still haven't recovered........if this was duke, how much hate mail would you send out ???.....

hurley1
03-14-2011, 04:05 PM
Are folks aware that Rose produced the documentary? Imagine how differently it might have portrayed the whole thing if it hadn't been produced by one of the players on the team.

i would love to see this documentary completely done over and coach k and bobby knight being the producers......with them giving their honest opinions and takes on everything involved in this.....can you say BLISTERING ?????

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2011, 04:20 PM
i would love to see this documentary completely done over and coach k and bobby knight being the producers......with them giving their honest opinions and takes on everything involved in this.....can you say BLISTERING ?????

Knight maybe - K I doubt it

K appeared in the HBO documentary on UNLV and had very favorable comments on how the 1990 beat down of Duke refected favorably on the Runnin Rebels being a great team - if he had wanted to go off on a rant about Tark being the captain of a crew of pirates at Vegas for 30 years I bet HBO would not have edited the comments out of what appeared on screen Saturday night

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2011, 04:23 PM
I remember feeling terrible for Chris Webber after that championship game. That was highlighted again last night, but there is no doubt we should never recruit guys like that. By that I just mean guys who don't realize that it is a school, not just a launching pad to the NBA. We get guys there, but we expect them to grow as individuals on top of playing well. Jalen seems to have matured, but I don't think that happened until he got into the league and started seeing that on that level, he wasn't the big man on campus anymore.

Ummm - like Corey Maggette?

BD80
03-14-2011, 04:35 PM
So much more went on than admitted to, but the effort was enlightening.

I found the interview with Mitch Albom amusing - Webber hit Mitch, an investigative reporter, up for money. How accustomed must Webber have been to asking for, and receiving, money to ask for money from a reporter?

Channing
03-14-2011, 04:43 PM
it was all well deserved.....michigan was as respected as anybody before this happened, and they still haven't recovered........if this was duke, how much hate mail would you send out ???.....

By no means am I a fab-five apologist. But, there is zero reason for anyone associated with anything to use the language highlighted by Steve Fisher.

I started following college basketball about the time of the Fab Five (at about 10 years old) and have always been interested in that team. One thing to remember is that these were 18 year old kids who became instant celebrities. By every indication, Steve Fisher was useless, and these kids were left to essentially do what they wanted.

Jalen grew up in very very tough circumstances. Every day life for him included the hardships of the street. You can't expect him to come to college basketball and all of a sudden he is a completely refined personality. Its not how he grew up and that isn't his survival instinct.

AZLA
03-14-2011, 05:38 PM
The documentary was engaging. I really appreciate Rose's honesty and personality in it and his perspective. To Hurley's point, Rose wouldn't have beat him out out of his position, period. Duke was stacked and Hurley is arguably one of the best PGs in NCAA history. The trashing talking in the documentary was a real account of how they felt about life in general, in addition to Duke, but it's based more on their own inability to see beyond their own stereotypes. Fair enough. It was entertaining to watch the footage of Duke taking Michigan to school. It was a stark awakening that Duke was a far better team and you can see that realization the Fab 5 had when they came back a second year. Still though, I don't understand the megalomaniacal cockiness that they felt entitled to win two championships despite all the great NBA talent that was playing in the NCAA at the time. Though they didn't say it, it's obvious they begrudgingly know they lost to the better team. Calling Duke players what they did is unfortunate, but really, the only person who looks ugly for saying it is the Fab 5. I know they were expressing how they felt then, but c'mon, would they ever say what they said in that documentary to Grant's face?

He had more basketball talent ON THE COURT than all of them combined. He was also tough. He lifted Duke on his shoulders and got them through a brutal run o the '94 Finals. And if anyone would be stupid enough to say what was said in the documentary to his face -- I get a feeling they would have got this response:

What did you say?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=anl4PajsqeE

Webber came across as incredibly insecure and it's no surprise he didn't appear in the documentary. I'm betting he wished he was called for the travel, and he should have been, the refs choked on the whistle. Throwing Ed Martin under the bus the way he did was probably even more astonishing and Rose's response to Webber's press conference was telling. It doesn't appear Webber will ever be contrite.

When it comes to Fisher, I can't help but think that Coach K would have provided better leadership, but it would be the tougher path. It may have helped Webber live up to the astounding potential that he possessed. I don't think Fisher had any ability to relate to the kids and lead off the court.

What is unfortunate about the misrepresentation of the Duke program is that Coach K does have so-called street credibility amongst players. I mean, c'mon, he came from humble inner-city beginnings in Chicago. His parents weren't born with a silver spoon in their mouths and neither was he. Their family experienced a prejudiced society in which they would modify their name so they didn't lose out on opportunities because of their polish heritage. I'm not equating this to what the Fab 5 may or may not have gone through in their youth, but I am saying that Coach K can relate on some level. Even Coach K would say he was a little street cocky in his day, and that he really grew up at West Point under Knight.

Point is, I hope this documentary helps people realize that no matter someone's background, after they lace 'em up and the second they step across the baseline and call "next," everyone is equal on the basketball court.

allenmurray
03-14-2011, 05:40 PM
Ummm - like Corey Maggette?

False equivilency alert!

Magette took money from an AAU coach while he was still in high school - long before he joined the Duke program. Members of the Fab Five took money from a Michigan booster while they were playing basketball for the University of Michigan.

Atlanta Duke
03-14-2011, 07:00 PM
False equivilency alert!

Magette took money from an AAU coach while he was still in high school - long before he joined the Duke program. Members of the Fab Five took money from a Michigan booster while they were playing basketball for the University of Michigan.

The post to which I was responding said nothing about players taking payments while enrolled in college and I certainly was not implying Maggettte was being paid while at Duke

The statement to which I replied was this

there is no doubt we should never recruit guys like that. By that I just mean guys who don't realize that it is a school, not just a launching pad to the NBA. We get guys there, but we expect them to grow as individuals on top of playing well.

Corey Maggette and William Avery are two Duke recruits who it is hard to argue used Duke for much more than a launching pad for the NBA

BobbyFan
03-14-2011, 07:07 PM
Are folks aware that Rose produced the documentary? Imagine how differently it might have portrayed the whole thing if it hadn't been produced by one of the players on the team.

Exactly. I found it interesting, but this simply can't be considered a true, unbiased look at the Fab Five.

4decadedukie
03-14-2011, 07:30 PM
I thought the documentary was quite interesting, but extremely self-serving. Here are three highly relevant facts that apply to these so-called student-athletes, which I am sure most DBR participants know:
a) None ever graduated from the University of Michigan
b) From the NCAA's perspective, none ever played in the Final Four (appearances vacated)
c) Several were implicated in serious Federal crimes

Duvall
03-14-2011, 07:40 PM
I thought the documentary was quite interesting, but extremely self-serving. Here are three highly relevant facts that apply to these so-called student-athletes, which I am sure most DBR participants know:
a) None ever graduated from the University of Michigan
b) From the NCAA's perspective, none ever played in the Final Four (appearances vacated)
c) Several were implicated in serious Federal crimes

Juwan Howard graduated (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1355/is_n2_v88/ai_16882881/), I remember hearing about it at the time. Not sure about the others.

dukemsu
03-14-2011, 07:59 PM
The documentary was nothing of the kind. It was propaganda produced by Rose and ESPN with an assist from David Brandon, the current AD at UM.

They completely glossed over the Ed Martin situation. Ed Martin ran numbers games in the auto plant he worked at and had ties to organized crime. He got in with all the players in the major Detroit high schools and also had close ties to Perry Watson, the former U of D head coach and Rose's high school coach at Detroit Southwestern who was hired by Fisher at Michigan.

As for the players themselves, they had an impact on the culture of basketball, but much of that was previously started by Georgetown and later UNLV. UNLV were the original anti-heroes of college basketball. The true on-court legacy of the Fab Five, and it is a considerable one, was the five freshmen starters. No one will do that again and reach the Final Four.

It tossed Webber under the bus, rolled backward, and rolled over him again. They asked him to admit his mistakes knowing full well he can't and won't. Webber still has legal considerations from his plea deal in the case. I doubt we'll ever hear Webber's side of the story in full.

From my username, it's obvious that I have a clear bias against UM, but I lived in Michigan and was around high school and college basketball at the time it all happened. None of this stuff was particularly well hidden, and I am shocked they blatantly ignored so many of the warts. Mitch Albom is a mouthpiece of the University of Michigan and played his role again, very well, in this documentary.

I gave up on ESPN as a journalistic entity long ago. Even 30 for 30 only went after easy targets (SMU) while glorifying others (Miami). The fact that they put this out with so little investigation into the real story of Ed Martin is further proof that they have no interest in being journalists any longer.

dukemsu

Faison1
03-14-2011, 08:18 PM
I found the show totally enthralling. And also enlightening.

I flip-flopped emotions on several occasions. I truly felt badly for Jalen and Juwan in that they came from really tough situations, family wise. No kid deserves to miss out on the security a good parent offers.

On the other hand, the constant complaints about everyone else making money got pretty old. From the pictures we saw, it certainly looked like they were always dressed well, living large, drinking beer and what not. I don't understand the bitterness about money, when they only spent a couple years in college before making a ton of cash.

Ultimately, it's tough to hear someone else call your team/love/passion a bunch of "Uncle Tom's"...", but I do have respect that Jalen was able to produce this, and show clips of Laettner, Hurley, and Hill abusing them. That took courage. And he didn't cop out by only showing a few seconds of it. He showed quite a bit. The move Laettner made at Michigan was SWEET...defender buckled at the ankles and ends up on the floor.

Anyway, I felt this show had much more substance than the HBO Documentary on UNLV. That one barely glanced at the 1991 semi-final rematch.

The long walk of Webber when the UNC game ended was brutal. Like they said, I'm not sure Webber has ever gotten over it. Poor guy.

Newton_14
03-14-2011, 08:24 PM
I found the show totally enthralling. And also enlightening.

I flip-flopped emotions on several occasions. I truly felt badly for Jalen and Juwan in that they came from really tough situations, family wise. No kid deserves to miss out on the security a good parent offers.

On the other hand, the constant complaints about everyone else making money got pretty old. From the pictures we saw, it certainly looked like they were always dressed well, living large, drinking beer and what not. I don't understand the bitterness about money, when they only spent a couple years in college before making a ton of cash.

Ultimately, it's tough to hear someone else call your team/love/passion a bunch of "Uncle Tom's"..., but I do have respect that Jalen was able to produce this, and show clips of Laettner, Hurley, and Hill abusing them. That took courage. And he didn't cop out by only showing a few seconds of it. He showed quite a bit. The move Laettner made at Michigan was SWEET...defender buckled at the ankles and ends up on the floor.

Anyway, I felt this show had much more substance than the HBO Documentary on UNLV. That one barely glanced at the 1991 semi-final rematch.

The long walk of Webber when the UNC game ended was brutal. Like they said, I'm not sure Webber has ever gotten over it. Poor guy.

Rose also fully admitted that his perception of Laettner, Hurley, and the Duke team was wrong. He stated that "they had game man, they could play. Walking off the court after the Championship game, I was ok because I knew we lost to a better team".

Wheat/"/"/"
03-14-2011, 08:50 PM
I saw it..enjoyed it...and absolutely believe those kids were exploited by Michigan, the media, and the NCAA.

That said...they played like punks, disrespected every team they played against, and never won squat for a title.

I love emotion in games, intense play, and actually enjoy a little trash talk. But they often played just plain dirty as I recall.

Nothing they did as a team or individuals advanced the college game in a positive way...IMO.

BD80
03-14-2011, 09:32 PM
I thought the documentary was quite interesting, but extremely self-serving. Here are three highly relevant facts that apply to these so-called student-athletes, which I am sure most DBR participants know:
a) None ever graduated from the University of Michigan ...

King, Jackson and Howard all graduated from UM on time, even though Howard completed courses while he was a rookie in the NBA. Rose ended up getting his degree from Maryland a few years ago (online?).

Mike Corey
03-14-2011, 10:50 PM
I doubt there is anything in the documentary that recruits don't hear regularly.

Correct.

Tjenkins
03-14-2011, 11:13 PM
I thought it was basically a good documentary, Rose's producer credit notwithstanding. All documentaries are biased in some way, going back to the Robert Flaherty era.

The oddest part for me was how it jumped from Webber going pro to several years later, ignoring the 1993-94 team that lost to Arkansas in the regional final. It would've been interesting to know what was going through their minds that year. I'm sure there were moments during that season when the team had tough losses and thought "what if Webber stayed another year?".

OZ
03-14-2011, 11:35 PM
Some here have expressed appreciation for Rose's honesty... how does one really know that? They produced it, put it together and provided the personal accounts. What I know about this story is basically what they have told me.

I, like others here, flip-flopped with my opinion as well as my emotions. I was both amazed and appalled. I shuttered at the thoughts of a Duke player ranting at the cameras as did Howard and Webber in the two scenes they showed ("we're gonna shock the world" and "mf" bleeped a few times after losing to Duke).

Someone needs to remind Rose, that his mother was not the only mother who "busted her hump for her family." My mother worked ten hours a day in a cotton mill. She is deaf today because of the machines around which she worked. Her proudest day was when I walked out of Duke Chapel with my degree (we were evacuated from CIS because of a bomb threat). There were and are a lot of students and student athletes at Duke who were not silver-spoon born. Rose might also be reminded that Coack K's mom also "busted her hump" working jobs cleaning floors.

Finally, with our "softies," "uncle Toms" and "overrated" "pretty boys," we won two national championships... and those young men made Duke proud. On the other hand, the "Five" left Michigan with a program in shambles, a coach fired, sordid legacies and a technical-foul time out. I'll take our "softies" any day.

Dr. Tina
03-15-2011, 12:49 AM
I decided to watch the Fab Five documentary because I didn't really remember much about them. I knew the nickname, they played for Michigan, and that Chris Webber called a TO that Michigan didn't have in the title game. I remember being annoyed that UNC won.

I noticed that it was executive produced by Jalen Rose, so I figured that there would be some bias in how the story was told. As the doc pertained to Duke, I understood a bit better exactly why they felt an animosity and bitterness towards Duke. To me, it felt like it had more to do with what the guys were lacking in their own lives than anything Duke actually did. It's easier to point the finger at someone else and find reasons to dislike them than to look within yourself and ask why it bothers you so much. It seems that Jalen has matured and become more introspective in this regard. I also like that Jalen admitted that Duke players could play and that Duke deserved the win because they were better.

Jalen's admission that he researched players to find their Achilles heel is very Machiavellian. I cannot imagine the reaction a Duke player would receive for doing that sort of thing. I get that he was playing a mental game, but it doesn't appear that he had any standards as to what would be in poor taste.

I thought the Fab Five came across as a bit spoiled, especially in regards to their trip to Europe. They were able to ditch school and see places that many people never get to see in their lifetimes...and none of it was on their dime. Yet...they complained about it every step of the way. Instead, they focus a lot of their talk on how they were feeling "exploited" by the UofM because of all the merchandising deals, etc. I know there are conflicting opinions on this, but I feel the fact a college basketball player is getting a free education to earn their degree is a great deal. I'm not sure why they need to be compensated beyond that, especially if they have enough talent and skill to make it into the NBA...a place where they'll make lots of money. I got tired of hearing the Fab 5's whining about this. Obviously, they are astute and UoM did make a lot of money, but the Fab Five could have done a lot worse.

Chris Webber came across as insecure and immature in the documentary. Legally, I can see why there are some issues with Webber speaking his piece now, but he had opportunities to set the record straight before. Albom talks about how Chris Webber didn't feel comfortable with the persona or whatever. I felt Webber was a sell out with his own guys, given the way he refused to take responsibility and then appeared to blame it all on Ed Martin.

Steve Fisher did appear kind of clueless. I also felt there was a lot of protesting a little too much in terms of Fisher and his assistants talking up how much respect and control he had over his players. If the Fab Five really received all that money and those perks (well, if at least Webber did!), I don't buy that they didn't know that.

The best thing I could say about the Fab Five is that they were early advocates of getting rid of the tightie whitey basketball shorts....lol

I do wish the documentary was done by someone who has a more impartial voice.

4decadedukie
03-15-2011, 06:46 AM
I commented in my last post to this thread that none of the Feb Five had graduated from the University of Michigan. I based this on carefully reading both their personal biographies and the "Fab Five" article on Wikipedia. It now appears that I was wrong, and I apologize for my error.

Reilly
03-15-2011, 07:28 AM
... they ... never won squat for a title. ...

Two regional championships are titles (although they got vacated, so they aren't, but I didn't take your comment to be about the erasure).

They did not finish first in the Big 10 in 1992 or 1993. Of somewhat interest, Michigan lost 14 games total in 1992 and 1993, and 6/14 were to Duke and Indiana (3x each), teams known for hard-nosed, old school defense, not flash and the 'modern' game.

Spret42
03-15-2011, 09:07 AM
The FabFive were a function of a time and a place. They were like everything in life, they were neither all good or all bad. They were both used by and using/abusing a system that is all parts charitable, honorable, profitable, offensive, lying and hypocritical.

As for what Jalen Rose said. He never should have said "Uncle Tom" because it wasn't what he actually meant.

Duke basketball has experienced a ton of success with a Coach and a way of doing things that has worked for them. Dukes black players have, for the most part, been the kinds of young men whose backgrounds and situations match up well with the school and the coach.

Coach K and John Chaney are good friends. I have said this before, I think Coach K would say basketball needs the John Chaney's as well as the Mike Krzyzewski's because it needs a way to work with all kinds of different people from a variety of backgrounds.

That is kind of what Rose meant when he said "Well, certain schools recruit a typical kind of player whether the world admits it or not. And Duke is one of those schools. They recruit black players from polished families, accomplished families. And that’s fine. That’s okay. But when you’re an inner-city kid playing in a public school league, you know that certain schools aren’t going to recruit you. That’s one. And I’m okay with it. That’s how I felt as an 18-year-old kid.”

I don't think he is wrong and I don't think Duke or Coach K should feel the need to apologize for that. Like my father said, "That is perfectly fine, I am glad there is a place for that kind of young man to get the best opportunity available to him."

dukebluesincebirth
03-15-2011, 09:42 AM
I didn't watch the documentary because I really never got the big deal about the "Fab Five." The whole hype surrounding them was all created by the media and then they never lived up to anything, never did anything overly impressive to me. I just remember Duke beating them for a NC, then never really thought about them again.

Now Jalen Rose does a documentary like there's something new, exciting, or interesting about the story? And many on this thread say it wasn't even close to accurate... not worth my time.

moonpie23
03-15-2011, 11:23 AM
Fab 5 = Fashion statement..........nothing more....nothing less..

Chris Randolph
03-15-2011, 11:52 AM
Just watched Jalen Rose and Jimmy King discuss their thoughts and words about Duke on 1st and 10. Jimmy King shouldn't say much, he doesn't make much sense. Jalen makes sense and has a strong viewpoint. Skip Bayless speaks truth and Jalen and Jimmy don't want to hear it or accept it.

Duke recruited high character, intelligent, exceptional basketball players who came from a winning tradition. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that, I think it has worked out pretty well :)

They would NEVER admit it, but the Fab 5 are jealous of Duke

Les Grossman
03-15-2011, 12:05 PM
and won nothing. All sizzle, no steak.
next.....

Orange&BlackSheep
03-15-2011, 12:05 PM
I didn't watch the documentary because I really never got the big deal about the "Fab Five." The whole hype surrounding them was all created by the media and then they never lived up to anything, never did anything overly impressive to me. I just remember Duke beating them for a NC, then never really thought about them again.

Now Jalen Rose does a documentary like there's something new, exciting, or interesting about the story? And many on this thread say it wasn't even close to accurate... not worth my time.

Wait ... so winning five games in the NCAAs is not impressive but winning six is? Y'all gotta be kidding me. Five freshman coming in and leading a team to a final game is INCREDIBLY impressive. If what you are saying is true, then what Butler did last near was not worthy of ever considering again.

Reilly
03-15-2011, 12:07 PM
Dukebluesincebirth, I wouldn’t says their hype was all created by media and they never did anything overly impressive; moonpie23, I wouldn’t say they were just a fashion statement.

They made consecutive national championship games. Of course a lot of folks would be focusing on them then, just as a lot of folks focused on Phi Slamma Jamma’s run and G’town’s run in the early-to-mid-80s, and Duke’s run from 86-94 ... Michigan made three NC games in five years, and two in a row. What’s interesting to me is not that a lot of attention was paid to all those teams, but it seems that Florida in ’06 and ’07 didn’t get much attention comparatively.

moonpie23
03-15-2011, 12:14 PM
Wait ... so winning five games in the NCAAs is not impressive but winning six is? Y'all gotta be kidding me. Five freshman coming in and leading a team to a final game is INCREDIBLY impressive. If what you are saying is true, then what Butler did last near was not worthy of ever considering again.

it's not that it's not impressive...it was.....up to a the point where duke beat them....

it's like "wow....that trash-talking 12-yr-old is a good swimmer......who's he up against next? oh...michael phelps"...



now it's being diminished by the whining of jalen and jimmy about the teams that beat them down....

you don't hear butler calling out duke for recruiting "uncle toms".....in fact, you don't hear much whining at all from butler...although, butler never really created a fashion statement...

jalen is just mad and needs to make some money with his re-hype.....

CTDukeFan
03-15-2011, 01:03 PM
I haven't seen the interviews with Rose and King on various shows promoting the documentary, but I took most of the comments in the documentary to refer to how they felt about Duke at the time, not necessarily how they felt now. In particular I thought that Rose indicated that perception changed. And I think Rose stated that Duke was the better team when they won the 1992 championship (I think it was clear they thought they were better than UNC in the 1993 game).
I thought Rose was honest with his feelings about why he disliked Grant Hill. Which takes some guts to admit, IMHO.
The movie certainly did take their view of the matter, and you have to take that into account, but I think it was well worth watching. I don't think it completely covered over their warts (like admitting they acted spoiled on the trip to Europe).
As others have noted, it's great to see how the Fab Five have progressed from their college days. We do have to remember that as college students, they're just kids. I'm sure we've all done things in college we'd rather be forgotten.

david

AZLA
03-15-2011, 01:39 PM
Wait ... so winning five games in the NCAAs is not impressive but winning six is? Y'all gotta be kidding me. Five freshman coming in and leading a team to a final game is INCREDIBLY impressive. If what you are saying is true, then what Butler did last near was not worthy of ever considering again.

Technically speaking -- they didn't win those games. They forfeited them ;)

I don't think any of the Butler players were on the take.

kgills7
03-15-2011, 02:08 PM
one reality that these fab 5 guys aren't willing to admit is this.......all of them except maybe webber would have ridden the pine alot at duke.....even howard would have been behind grant....don't forget, they never won anything and lost a national championship because they paid no attention to their so called coach.....the main reason duke would have not recruited them is......1- duke doesn't pay players and duke doesn't do business with bookies....2- they wouldn't have made the grades at duke to stay in school.....

Duke won because they were returning champs with several final four experiences playing a bunch of 18 an 19 year olds. Duke was suppose to win. The Fab Five should have not been in the finals. The fact that they did make it says a lot about them.

kgills7
03-15-2011, 02:11 PM
I thought the documentary was quite interesting, but extremely self-serving. Here are three highly relevant facts that apply to these so-called student-athletes, which I am sure most DBR participants know:
a) None ever graduated from the University of Michigan
b) From the NCAA's perspective, none ever played in the Final Four (appearances vacated)
c) Several were implicated in serious Federal crimes

Juwan Howard has a degree.

Orange&BlackSheep
03-15-2011, 02:24 PM
it's not that it's not impressive...it was.....up to a the point where duke beat them....

it's like "wow....that trash-talking 12-yr-old is a good swimmer......who's he up against next? oh...michael phelps"...

You obviously look at things differently than me. I as a Philadelphia Eagles fan think the McNabb era was INCREDIBLY successful and personally would not want the suck for three years to try to win one championship model of franchise management.

And this also means that your view of Duke's run last year in the tournament would be completely different if that lucky heave went in. It obviously changes things some if it had. I look back at the Redick years with absolute fondness even though the NCAA tournament did not work out all that well on the whole.

Scoring Point
03-15-2011, 03:40 PM
You obviously look at things differently than me. I as a Philadelphia Eagles fan think the McNabb era was INCREDIBLY successful and personally would not want the suck for three years to try to win one championship model of franchise management.

And this also means that your view of Duke's run last year in the tournament would be completely different if that lucky heave went in. It obviously changes things some if it had. I look back at the Redick years with absolute fondness even though the NCAA tournament did not work out all that well on the whole.

The Fab 5 never finished better than 2nd in the Big Ten, going:

- 11-7 (T3 with Michigan State, behind 15-3 Ohio State and 14-4 Indiana)
- 15-3 (2nd behind 17-1 Indiana)
- 13-5 (without Webber, 2nd behind 14-4 Purdue)
- 11-7 (without Webber, Rose and Howard; T3 with Indiana, behind 15-3 Purdue and 14-4 Michigan State)

Even if you throw out the last year with just King and Jackson, they went just 39-15 in conference play, a 72.2% winning percentage that is impressive but far from dominant. Compare that to Duke's 49-15 in the ACC during JJ's time, with 2 regular season and 3 conference tourney championships.

They did undoubtedly get hot at tourney time. But their Regional NCAA Championships in '92 and '93 were the only titles they ever won. And they were far from a week-in, week-out juggernaut in any of their seasons.

To me, the Fab 5's main claim to fame is personifying a culture of disrespect and defiance that synched up perfectly with the mushrooming popularity of hip-hop at the time. I have not seen the ESPN documentary but assume that theme is prevalent. College hoops and pop culture have never been the same since.

dukebluesincebirth
03-15-2011, 03:50 PM
Wait ... so winning five games in the NCAAs is not impressive but winning six is? Y'all gotta be kidding me. Five freshman coming in and leading a team to a final game is INCREDIBLY impressive. If what you are saying is true, then what Butler did last near was not worthy of ever considering again.

I think my earlier post you're referring to says I was not "overly" impressed with anything the Fab 5 accomplished. Yes, I'll give you that getting to the title game is impressive, especially 5 freshmen. But when I say not "overly impressive" I mean it's not something worthy of me watching a documentary about. If they had won the championship (and not violated NCAA rules) that would've been very impressive. 2 championships? Over the moon impressive. But as Duke fans we know there is a fairly big difference in getting to the title game, and winning the National Championship.

BlueHeaven
03-15-2011, 04:03 PM
Grant Hill tweeted today that he is working on a response to Jalen Rose and the Fab 5 documentary. I am torn between being anxious to hear his response and not wanting him to dignify their nonsense with any type of comment. I think Jalen Rose is jealous and he has said he was insanely jealous of Grant Hill. Obviously. I'm sure he isn't recognizing that he comes off looking like a complete horse's petute when he makes statements about the Duke program in the present tense. I agree with a previous poster that it's somewhat forgivable if he's describing how he felt as a teenager at Michigan, but from what I've seen, he's maintaining his position now. Grow up.

cato
03-15-2011, 04:04 PM
To me, the Fab 5's main claim to fame is personifying a culture of disrespect and defiance that synched up perfectly with the mushrooming popularity of hip-hop at the time. I have not seen the ESPN documentary but assume that theme is prevalent. College hoops and pop culture have never been the same since.

Culture of disrespect. That is amusing, since so much of the underlying context is about a fight for respect.

Orange&BlackSheep
03-15-2011, 04:23 PM
I think my earlier post you're referring to says I was not "overly" impressed with anything the Fab 5 accomplished. Yes, I'll give you that getting to the title game is impressive, especially 5 freshmen. But when I say not "overly impressive" I mean it's not something worthy of me watching a documentary about. If they had won the championship (and not violated NCAA rules) that would've been very impressive. 2 championships? Over the moon impressive. But as Duke fans we know there is a fairly big difference in getting to the title game, and winning the National Championship.

And I don't want to come off as an apologist for some very flawed young men. I just think that they were just a great NCAA tournament team for those two years. Dean Smith himself (IIRC) said that after a particularly athletic Webber play with about 7 minutes to go in the '93 final, that he felt that Carolina was going to lose. I think Jalen is right when he says that they were the better team in 1993. But not so much better that a well-coached team could not bring them down -- a team whose players would have had a vision of what to do if they found themselves with the ball that did not include calling a timeout.

I personally am most offended by Jalen Rose equating blackness with growing up hard. It is yet another example of why I think the concept of race is just bankrupt of essential meaning.

Furthermore the post that follows from dukebluesincebirth is exactly why my opinion of Jalen Rose has permanently changed. I really enjoyed listening to him on ESPN. I can't look at him the same way anymore.

dukebluesincebirth
03-15-2011, 04:23 PM
"...I agree with a previous poster that it's somewhat forgivable if he's describing how he felt as a teenager at Michigan, but from what I've seen, he's maintaining his position now. Grow up."

I couldn't agree more. I was okay with this until I just saw the First Take interview from this morning. Are you kidding me? Jalen Rose is all but standing by everything he said as a teenager. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt thinking these comments were made out of immaturity, years ago. But they are attacking Duke TODAY, and by doing so is an example of being "socially conscious?" Then he has the nerve to add at the end "and everything I'm saying now, we said it those Duke guys on the court when we played them." I had no idea how jealous this guy was/is of Duke. But I feel like he's crossing a line now and trying to publicly "call out" Duke like they've done something wrong. I don't appreciate it. Have you all watched this morning's interview with Dana Jacobson/Skip Bayless?

dukebluesincebirth
03-15-2011, 04:28 PM
And I don't want to come off as an apologist for some very flawed young men. I just think that they were just a great NCAA tournament team for those two years. Dean Smith himself (IIRC) said that after a particularly athletic Webber play with about 7 minutes to go in the '93 final, that he felt that Carolina was going to lose. I think Jalen is right when he says that they were the better team in 1993. But not so much better that a well-coached team could not bring them down -- a team whose players would have had a vision of what to do if they found themselves with the ball that did not include calling a timeout.

I personally am most offended by Jalen Rose equating blackness with growing up hard. It is yet another example of why I think the concept of race is just bankrupt of essential meaning.


They had a good team and great talent, but right now I'm mostly concerned with all of Jalen Rose's comments against Duke. I'm also offended by the comment you mentioned above and I also think there are a few other flaws in Jalen's statements. Like someone above said about G. Hill's pending response, I don't know whether it's better to respond or just ignore it as unworthy of time and energy.

AZLA
03-15-2011, 04:32 PM
Grant Hill tweeted today that he is working on a response to Jalen Rose and the Fab 5 documentary. I am torn between being anxious to hear his response and not wanting him to dignify their nonsense with any type of comment. I think Jalen Rose is jealous and he has said he was insanely jealous of Grant Hill. Obviously. I'm sure he isn't recognizing that he comes off looking like a complete horse's petute when he makes statements about the Duke program in the present tense. I agree with a previous poster that it's somewhat forgivable if he's describing how he felt as a teenager at Michigan, but from what I've seen, he's maintaining his position now. Grow up.

Yah, I understand your concern. But, in this day and age, silence does not fly like it used to, especially considering the emergence of social media. Also, I guarantee you that Grant's response will not be defensive or reactionary -- but will be positioned to move the larger social discussion forward.

I think also, with Grant's foray into film -- he's a producer himself -- he should really consider doing his own Duke documentary regarding the hype that surrounded Duke leading up to and during the back-to-back championships.

Remember, Fab 5 was big -- but the Duke phenomenon was and is bigger.

It's practically tee'd up!

Scoring Point
03-15-2011, 04:42 PM
Culture of disrespect. That is amusing, since so much of the underlying context is about a fight for respect.

Disrespect toward the established order (i.e. Duke in the case of college hoops at the time). I suppose that was their means of fighting for respect. I find the logic flawed but hey, at least they got famous and rich, and are still talking about it with ESPN today.

dukebluesincebirth
03-15-2011, 04:50 PM
Uhmmm. Does anyone else have a problem with Jalen Rose standing by his comments that Duke's black players are for the most part "Uncle Tom" type people which he defines as "black people who are subservient to whites?" Or the comment, "I've never seen Coach K in Detroit?" I feel like he's trying to hurt our recruiting while also making inappropriate comments.

OZ
03-15-2011, 05:03 PM
Jalen prided himself as the master of "trash talk - getting into my opponents head."

To me, it is starting to feel like we are responding to his trash talk. We have expressed confliciting feelings about Grant Hill responding to Rose - "dignifying his remarks" -yet we have devoted four pages of posts to the "five." Perhaps it is time stop letting Rose get into our heads.

cruxer
03-15-2011, 05:12 PM
Uhmmm. Does anyone else have a problem with Jalen Rose standing by his comments that Duke's black players are for the most part "Uncle Tom" type people which he defines as "black people who are subservient to whites?" Or the comment, "I've never seen Coach K in Detroit?" I feel like he's trying to hurt our recruiting while also making inappropriate comments.

This is the only really offensive part of the whole thing to me. "Uncle Tom" is an incredibly loaded and offensive term, and I can't believe that he would use that as a grown I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this.I'm a real wanker for saying this. man. Not only that, but a multi-billion dollar media conglomerate who employs him wouldn't counsel him against using it. In fact, said conglomerate continually hypes his usage of the loaded, offensive term to promote the film! Can you imagine any other racial slur being used to promote a documentary on a mainstream cable network?

He felt how he felt as an 18-yr-old, and as a teenage black dude (albeit massive Duke fan) in the early 90s, I could even understand it, given the run-up to Duke/UNLV in the 2 years during which Jalen was likely making decisions about college. It's his incredible obtuseness in not currently understanding how limited his 18-yr-old point of view was that grates me. Are his kids (assuming he has or will have them) "uncle toms" because he has money? Or is his plan to move back to the ghetto and abandon his family just so his kids will be "authentic", whatever the heck that means?

Listen to Greg Anthony's take on it from today's Dan Patrick show to hear someone who's actually grown up in the last 20 years since he was a kid. He said he understood Jalen's sentiment as an 18 year old, but he'd gladly send his kid to Duke, assuming he couldn't convince him to go to UNLV, natch....

-c

dukebluesincebirth
03-15-2011, 05:16 PM
Jalen prided himself as the master of "trash talk - getting into my opponents head."

To me, it is starting to feel like we are responding to his trash talk. We have expressed confliciting feelings about Grant Hill responding to Rose - "dignifying his remarks" -yet we have devoted four pages of posts to the "five." Perhaps it is time stop letting Rose get into our heads.

But we're not opposing Jalen in any sort of competition now, so why does he feel the need to trash talk or get into our heads? "Uncle Tom" is a pretty strong phrase to use when you're not even involved in a heated competition.

striker219
03-15-2011, 05:19 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Jason Whitlock but I did find his take on all of this interesting.

Fab Five film fantasy, not documentary (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/ESPN-The-Fab-Five-documentary-Jalen-Rose-Chris-Webber-Juwan-Howard-Jimmy-King-Ray-Jackson-031511)

dukebluesincebirth
03-15-2011, 05:38 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Jason Whitlock but I did find his take on all of this interesting.

Fab Five film fantasy, not documentary (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/ESPN-The-Fab-Five-documentary-Jalen-Rose-Chris-Webber-Juwan-Howard-Jimmy-King-Ray-Jackson-031511)

Thank you SO much for posting the link to this article. This just summed up everything that my frustration was blocking me from articulating. I have nothing to add. Whitlock says it ALL. Done. End of story.

Class of '94
03-15-2011, 05:45 PM
Uhmmm. Does anyone else have a problem with Jalen Rose standing by his comments that Duke's black players are for the most part "Uncle Tom" type people which he defines as "black people who are subservient to whites?" Or the comment, "I've never seen Coach K in Detroit?" I feel like he's trying to hurt our recruiting while also making inappropriate comments.

I wasn't able to watch Jalen and Jimmy King on espn; but if Jalen said this, it deeply saddens me. I heard Jalen on a local radio show here in Detroit said that the harsh feelings he had was as an 18 year old and he asked to not judge him today by what stupid things he might've said as an 18yr old. I get it (although I don't agree) if he was trying to justify why he felt that way as an 18yr old; but if he coming across as a 37+ yr old person that still thinks that way, I will have lost all respect for him and those guys. It's funny how those comments that Rose made could be applied to Dean Smith and Roy Williams in that I don't recall hearing either of them in Detroit; and that kids would have never been allowed to act like and be a "Fab 5" at UNC or any other school with a good, disciplined coach. For the UNC people, I'm not bashing Carolina; I'm just trying to make a point by using a program that might be considered a more socially accepted program.

Class of '94
03-15-2011, 05:51 PM
Thank you SO much for posting the link to this article. This just summed up everything that my frustration was blocking me from articulating. I have nothing to add. Whitlock says it ALL. Done. End of story.

Thank-you Mr. Whitlock. I think he nailed it.

And after watching the espn first take video in the article, I came away thinking that Jimmy King feels the same way about Duke that he did as a kid and that's disappointing. It's interesting that Jimmy failed to recall that we had predominantly black teams in the past (i.e., the 1998-1999 teams with an all-black starting lineup for the 1999 team; not that "that" should even be important). And why is Mateen Cleaves on there? I can't believe Mateen tried to stir the pot further by mentioning that Coach K and Duke didn't recruit him from Flint. Here's a tip Mateen, maybe you weren't good enough to be recruited by us. I don't recall other elite schools like UNC, Kansas, Kentucky recruiting you either. Heck, I don't think Michigan was recruiting him at the time.

unexpected
03-15-2011, 06:19 PM
It's amazing to me that Webber tries to play himself off like "one of the boys from the hood" when he himself went to Detroit County Day. Additionally he also forgets to tell people that Duke recruited him before he decided to go to Michigan.

Duvall
03-15-2011, 06:29 PM
And why is Mateen Cleaves on there? I can't believe Mateen tried to stir the pot further by mentioning that Coach K and Duke didn't recruit him from Flint. Here's a tip Mateen, maybe you weren't good enough to be recruited by us. I don't recall other elite schools like UNC, Kansas, Kentucky recruiting you either. Heck, I don't think Michigan was recruiting him at the time.

Oh, yeah they did (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E3DD1F3AF93BA25751C0A9659C8B 63).

Class of '94
03-15-2011, 06:42 PM
Oh, yeah they did (http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9905E3DD1F3AF93BA25751C0A9659C8B 63).

Thanks for correcting me; but I don't heard of the current Michigan coach recruiting kids out of the inner city of Detroit. Does that make him a bad guy or afraid to recruit Detroit kids? No.......It just means that he hasn't found up to this point kids in Detroit that fit his system yet.

throatybeard
03-15-2011, 07:10 PM
To me, the Fab 5's main claim to fame is personifying a culture of disrespect and defiance that synched up perfectly with the mushrooming popularity of hip-hop at the time. I have not seen the ESPN documentary but assume that theme is prevalent. College hoops and pop culture have never been the same since.

I'm far from an expert on HH, but I don't think this is particularly accurate. AIUI, HH has undergone three major "mainstreamings," that is, degrees of absorption into [predominantly White] mainstream American culture.

The first was in the mid-1980s. Rap had been around for quite a while in AfAm culture (Nelson George is a good source on this), but the mid 1980s is basically when White people found out about rap. Major figures include Jam Master Jay and especially KRS-One, who is a huge presence in socially-conscious rap.

The proximate cause of the second mainstreaming, again, AIUI, was The Chronic. So you get this West Coast sound popular all over the country. But Dre didn't release that album until December 1992. And summer 1993 is really when it blew up. By the time of release, the core Fab 5 had already played a complete season and were into their second. Their two great seasons mostly--almost entirely--preceded the "mushrooming" that resulted from that album.

The third mainstreaming occurs around 1999 through 2001. Blueprint was a particularly important document here, but there are others. Indeed, Jay-Z has managed to transform himself into a global brand as much as a musician. This is roughly the point at which HH becomes so mainstream that it isn't solely "Black music," at least not in a completely racialized space dictated by the white racial frame. (It's still somewhat racialized, but most of the White people under 35 I know listen to HH and do not consider it exclusively racialized music). It's kind of similar with what happened with Michael Jackson in pop in the 1980s. People were like "damn, Thriller is hot!" rather than considering Michael Jackson a "Black musician" per se.

Anyone who is more literate in HH than I am, feel free to correct or refine this. But I don't see a single mushrooming at the time Jalen Rose is wearing baggy shorts, and indeed, Chronic--perhaps the most important HH album of all time, wouldn't even be issued until two years after these guys signed with Steve Fisher. And HH had become somewhat mainstream when those guys were in like sixth grade. I also believe it reductive to label HH as simply an artifact of "a culture of defiance." Defiance is part of the fabric of HH, and it should be, given the prevalence of institutional racism. But there's so much more to it.

Other points: Jason Whitlock tears the documentary a new one:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/ESPN-The-Fab-Five-documentary-Jalen-Rose-Chris-Webber-Juwan-Howard-Jimmy-King-Ray-Jackson-031511

Basically, he says the documentary is a facile distortion of what actually happened into a pre-cooked narrative.

Lastly, why isn't anyone talking about Travis Best? Dude had the shorts 2/3 the way down his calf. He's still the avatar of long shorts to me.

ETA: sorry, Striker linked Whitlock first. Well, you get it linked twice.

dukemsu
03-15-2011, 07:32 PM
Thanks for correcting me; but I don't heard of the current Michigan coach recruiting kids out of the inner city of Detroit. Does that make him a bad guy or afraid to recruit Detroit kids? No.......It just means that he hasn't found up to this point kids in Detroit that fit his system yet.

Manny Harris and DeShawn Sims, who both ran out of eligibility at UM last season, were Detroit PSL kids and Amaker recruits.

Beilein is just now making his forays into the PSL. Izzo has had a spotty record with PSL kids. His first recruit there was Steve Smith. He (as the top recruiter for Jud Heathcote) lost out on all the big PSL recruits during the Fisher era. Recent Detroit Spartans have included Derrck Nix and Keith Appling. Lucas says he's from Detroit, but played in the suburbs.

Detroit PSL kids also have a long record of going to school out of state as well, notably to Syracuse and Missouri.

Acymetric
03-15-2011, 07:35 PM
Jalen prided himself as the master of "trash talk - getting into my opponents head."

To me, it is starting to feel like we are responding to his trash talk. We have expressed confliciting feelings about Grant Hill responding to Rose - "dignifying his remarks" -yet we have devoted four pages of posts to the "five." Perhaps it is time stop letting Rose get into our heads.

I say more power to him...sounds like Grant took that comment personally and he should have because I think it although Rose just made a broad comment I think Grant Hill was the picture in his mind when he said it (makes sense since they competed) and I imagine Grant took it the same way. I don't think we have to worry about Grant's response though, if there was one person I would trust to handle this appropriately it'd be him.

Class of '94
03-15-2011, 07:44 PM
Manny Harris and DeShawn Sims, who both ran out of eligibility at UM last season, were Detroit PSL kids and Amaker recruits.

Beilein is just now making his forays into the PSL. Izzo has had a spotty record with PSL kids. His first recruit there was Steve Smith. He (as the top recruiter for Jud Heathcote) lost out on all the big PSL recruits during the Fisher era. Recent Detroit Spartans have included Derrck Nix and Keith Appling. Lucas says he's from Detroit, but played in the suburbs.

Detroit PSL kids also have a long record of going to school out of state as well, notably to Syracuse and Missouri.

Got it.....Thanks for the insight; but I may not have been as clear with my point as I would have liked. My message is not as much who did or did not recruit Detroit PSL kids; but rather that just because you have not does not mean that one has a bias against those kids; and as you've pointed out, given time coaches are going to find kids in the PSL that want on their teams and will recruit them. I just think it's short-sided of Rose and King to think that Coach K would never recruit a PSL kid.

jipops
03-15-2011, 07:48 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Jason Whitlock but I did find his take on all of this interesting.

Fab Five film fantasy, not documentary (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/ESPN-The-Fab-Five-documentary-Jalen-Rose-Chris-Webber-Juwan-Howard-Jimmy-King-Ray-Jackson-031511)

Wow, Jason Whitlock stick up up for Duke? He must have taken a long shower after writing that one. It is a good read though. The Georgetown mention is right on. The Fab 5 were far behind any sort of "movement" but they did continue to bring this social context to the forefront. I did enjoy watching them.

Reilly
03-15-2011, 07:58 PM
.... rather than considering Michael Jackson a "Black musician" per se....

Anybody else see the guilty pleasure movie "Hot Tub Time Machine"?

cspan37421
03-15-2011, 08:26 PM
Anybody else see the guilty pleasure movie "Hot Tub Time Machine"?

yes, and your phrase describes it perfectly!

basket1544
03-15-2011, 10:32 PM
I want Coach K to keep recruiting the players he has been recruiting. With few exceptions they graduate and become model citizens. At no time, am I ever worried a player will be found at a "crack house". I don't think that comes from being private school players instead of inner city players, but I think Coach K does take the player's background into consideration when recruiting them. He doesn't recruit disrespectful players. Jalen wouldn't have been recruited for many reasons; I don't think it was because of his address.

jipops
03-15-2011, 11:23 PM
I'm far from an expert on HH, but I don't think this is particularly accurate. AIUI, HH has undergone three major "mainstreamings," that is, degrees of absorption into [predominantly White] mainstream American culture.

The first was in the mid-1980s. Rap had been around for quite a while in AfAm culture (Nelson George is a good source on this), but the mid 1980s is basically when White people found out about rap. Major figures include Jam Master Jay and especially KRS-One, who is a huge presence in socially-conscious rap.

The proximate cause of the second mainstreaming, again, AIUI, was The Chronic. So you get this West Coast sound popular all over the country. But Dre didn't release that album until December 1992. And summer 1993 is really when it blew up. By the time of release, the core Fab 5 had already played a complete season and were into their second. Their two great seasons mostly--almost entirely--preceded the "mushrooming" that resulted from that album.

The third mainstreaming occurs around 1999 through 2001. Blueprint was a particularly important document here, but there are others. Indeed, Jay-Z has managed to transform himself into a global brand as much as a musician. This is roughly the point at which HH becomes so mainstream that it isn't solely "Black music," at least not in a completely racialized space dictated by the white racial frame. (It's still somewhat racialized, but most of the White people under 35 I know listen to HH and do not consider it exclusively racialized music). It's kind of similar with what happened with Michael Jackson in pop in the 1980s. People were like "damn, Thriller is hot!" rather than considering Michael Jackson a "Black musician" per se.

Anyone who is more literate in HH than I am, feel free to correct or refine this. But I don't see a single mushrooming at the time Jalen Rose is wearing baggy shorts, and indeed, Chronic--perhaps the most important HH album of all time, wouldn't even be issued until two years after these guys signed with Steve Fisher. And HH had become somewhat mainstream when those guys were in like sixth grade. I also believe it reductive to label HH as simply an artifact of "a culture of defiance." Defiance is part of the fabric of HH, and it should be, given the prevalence of institutional racism. But there's so much more to it.

Other points: Jason Whitlock tears the documentary a new one:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/ESPN-The-Fab-Five-documentary-Jalen-Rose-Chris-Webber-Juwan-Howard-Jimmy-King-Ray-Jackson-031511

Basically, he says the documentary is a facile distortion of what actually happened into a pre-cooked narrative.

Lastly, why isn't anyone talking about Travis Best? Dude had the shorts 2/3 the way down his calf. He's still the avatar of long shorts to me.

ETA: sorry, Striker linked Whitlock first. Well, you get it linked twice.

I doubt I'm more literate in hip-hop but there was some pretty groundbreaking stuff coming out around the time of Fab5. As mentioned in the documentary there was EPMD. 'The Crossover' is great track. Also sandwiching this 2 year era are Tribe Called Quest's two great albums - Low End Theory and Midnight Marauders. I also remember PE's Apocalpyse '91 which had to be a huge hit amongst the white mainstream - 'Can't Truss It' calls out Nike and exploitation. The whole Def Jam record label had pretty much peaked. 3rd Bass maybe?... though maybe a couple years before Jalen's time.

DevilHorns
03-15-2011, 11:26 PM
Grant Hill:

"My response to the Fab Five Doc in the www.nytimes.com tomorrow morning. Good Night!!!"

http://twitter.com/realgranthill33

Awesome. Looking forward to what Grant will say!

BD80
03-15-2011, 11:40 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Jason Whitlock but I did find his take on all of this interesting.

Fab Five film fantasy, not documentary (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/ESPN-The-Fab-Five-documentary-Jalen-Rose-Chris-Webber-Juwan-Howard-Jimmy-King-Ray-Jackson-031511)

Whitlock references an entry (ghostwritten) on Chris Webber's Twitter account which is fascinating. Chris lumps himself in with the kind of kids that Duke wouldn't recruit. Other than being completely false, it is symptomatic of Chris's attitude, he bathed himself in Jalen's "street cred."

Nugget
03-15-2011, 11:42 PM
I'm not a huge fan of Jason Whitlock but I did find his take on all of this interesting.

Fab Five film fantasy, not documentary (http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/ESPN-The-Fab-Five-documentary-Jalen-Rose-Chris-Webber-Juwan-Howard-Jimmy-King-Ray-Jackson-031511)

Whitlock is absolutely right, especially:

1. That it was really the John Thompson/Patrick Ewing Georgetown teams that changed basketball in a meaningful way.

2. The Fab 5's impact was style over substance.

fan345678
03-16-2011, 12:14 AM
Has it occurred to anyone that Michigan is also a top academic school, WHICH WON THE 1989 NCAA TITLE?!?! How do Rumeal Robinson, Loy Vaught, and Glen Rice feel about all this nonsense?

juise
03-16-2011, 01:39 AM
Rumeal Robinson

...has other things to worry about (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rumeal_Robinson#Post-NBA_career).

TheItinerantSon
03-16-2011, 02:55 AM
wow some of you are kind of dense. To say that the Fab 5 was just hype and sizzle and a fashion statement really misses the point. Who cares whether they won the championship or not...I mean as entertaining as these games are, they're just a spectacle unless we use them to understand our world better.

And in that context the Fab 5 were a lot more meaningful than all of their opponents combined. How many of their opponents are discussed in college lit programs.

Why are you a duke fan? What does duke basketball mean to you? I hope to God, its more than just because some ancestor of yours once lived in or near duke's campus. Duke basketball, like everything else of significance, means something. It represents a certain set of values and a certain vision of America (the same way notre dame or nebraska football does). And when Jalen Rose doesn't get recruited by Duke despite how talented he is, thats a rejection of him and his community by a whole segment of america (and regardless of what bobby hurley says, on no planet is he or Thomas Hill half as good at basketball as jalen rose).

And its actually worse than that. Its not just that Duke doesn't recruit him, but anyone who does would be vilified.

Georgetown Basketball. UNLV Basketball. Miami Football. The programs that do recruit kids like Jalen Rose...are marginalized by the sports media. When the sports media says thug it sounds an awful lot like N****. Think about it. Christian Laetnerr stomps on an opponent during a game but Chris Webber's the thug?

There's an urban clothing line called FUBU. It's come to stand for 'For Us By Us'. That is what the fab five is about.

Bobby Knight has been mentioned in positive terms a couple of times in this thread. Thats the type of coach and the type of program that some of you would have Jalen Rose and his friends sign up to play for. They're supposed to sit on the bench, wait their turn, and when they do get to play they're supposed to sublimate their game to fit his continuity offense? They're supposed to mute their identity and fit in, so that the system around them can make millions of dollars?

Well the game is about the players. And the Fab 5 was a rejection of all that. They were a fashion statement - They were stating that basketball is a form of expression. They were proving that different stylistic visions of basketball are OK in college basketball, just as different cultural practices (dress/hair/music/speech) should be OK in america.

And because of that Steve Fisher not being the center of attention was the whole point of the Fab Five. And if they took money from boosters...well that fits too and I respect them even more for it.


(As an aside, some of you guys complain that Roy Williams and Bill Self recruit the same kids that Coach K does and yet don't get criticized for it. WELL OF COURSE THEY DON'T! They also don't have credit card commercials. And UNC and Kansas are not Duke. Of course they arent held to the same standard - they're random public universities they don't matter - like it or not Duke does.)


Also Webber had a significantly better nba career than Grant Hill. Arguably Jalen Rose did as well.

JG Nothing
03-16-2011, 06:53 AM
(As an aside, some of you guys complain that Roy Williams and Bill Self recruit the same kids that Coach K does and yet don't get criticized for it. WELL OF COURSE THEY DON'T! They also don't have credit card commercials. And UNC and Kansas are not Duke. Of course they arent held to the same standard - they're random public universities they don't matter - like it or not Duke does.)

Much of what you wrote is going to get blasted, but this is a really insightful point.

dukebluesincebirth
03-16-2011, 07:25 AM
wow some of you are kind of dense. To say that the Fab 5 was just hype and sizzle and a fashion statement really misses the point. Who cares whether they won the championship or not...I mean as entertaining as these games are, they're just a spectacle unless we use them to understand our world better.

And in that context the Fab 5 were a lot more meaningful than all of their opponents combined. How many of their opponents are discussed in college lit programs.

Why are you a duke fan? What does duke basketball mean to you? I hope to God, its more than just because some ancestor of yours once lived in or near duke's campus. Duke basketball, like everything else of significance, means something. It represents a certain set of values and a certain vision of America (the same way notre dame or nebraska football does). And when Jalen Rose doesn't get recruited by Duke despite how talented he is, thats a rejection of him and his community by a whole segment of america (and regardless of what bobby hurley says, on no planet is he or Thomas Hill half as good at basketball as jalen rose).

And its actually worse than that. Its not just that Duke doesn't recruit him, but anyone who does would be vilified.

Georgetown Basketball. UNLV Basketball. Miami Football. The programs that do recruit kids like Jalen Rose...are marginalized by the sports media. When the sports media says thug it sounds an awful lot like N****. Think about it. Christian Laetnerr stomps on an opponent during a game but Chris Webber's the thug?

There's an urban clothing line called FUBU. It's come to stand for 'For Us By Us'. That is what the fab five is about.

Bobby Knight has been mentioned in positive terms a couple of times in this thread. Thats the type of coach and the type of program that some of you would have Jalen Rose and his friends sign up to play for. They're supposed to sit on the bench, wait their turn, and when they do get to play they're supposed to sublimate their game to fit his continuity offense? They're supposed to mute their identity and fit in, so that the system around them can make millions of dollars?

Well the game is about the players. And the Fab 5 was a rejection of all that. They were a fashion statement - They were stating that basketball is a form of expression. They were proving that different stylistic visions of basketball are OK in college basketball, just as different cultural practices (dress/hair/music/speech) should be OK in america.

And because of that Steve Fisher not being the center of attention was the whole point of the Fab Five. And if they took money from boosters...well that fits too and I respect them even more for it.


(As an aside, some of you guys complain that Roy Williams and Bill Self recruit the same kids that Coach K does and yet don't get criticized for it. WELL OF COURSE THEY DON'T! They also don't have credit card commercials. And UNC and Kansas are not Duke. Of course they arent held to the same standard - they're random public universities they don't matter - like it or not Duke does.)


Also Webber had a significantly better nba career than Grant Hill. Arguably Jalen Rose did as well.

The only one that's "kind of dense" is Jalen Rose and his extremely weak attempt at a documentary. Read the article mentioned above by Jason Whitlock. Enough said.

DevilHorns
03-16-2011, 07:41 AM
Why are you a duke fan? What does duke basketball mean to you? I hope to God, its more than just because some ancestor of yours once lived in or near duke's campus. Duke basketball, like everything else of significance, means something. It represents a certain set of values and a certain vision of America (the same way notre dame or nebraska football does). And when Jalen Rose doesn't get recruited by Duke despite how talented he is, thats a rejection of him and his community by a whole segment of america (and regardless of what bobby hurley says, on no planet is he or Thomas Hill half as good at basketball as jalen rose).

And its actually worse than that. Its not just that Duke doesn't recruit him, but anyone who does would be vilified.

Georgetown Basketball. UNLV Basketball. Miami Football. The programs that do recruit kids like Jalen Rose...are marginalized by the sports media. When the sports media says thug it sounds an awful lot like N****. Think about it. Christian Laetnerr stomps on an opponent during a game but Chris Webber's the thug?

Bobby Knight has been mentioned in positive terms a couple of times in this thread. Thats the type of coach and the type of program that some of you would have Jalen Rose and his friends sign up to play for. They're supposed to sit on the bench, wait their turn, and when they do get to play they're supposed to sublimate their game to fit his continuity offense? They're supposed to mute their identity and fit in, so that the system around them can make millions of dollars?



How is not recruiting Jalen Rose a 'rejection of his community'? I'll answer it for you. If Jalen Rose's 'community' refers to a group of players that are asking for $$$ to come play for a program, then ya... it's a rejection of that 'community.'

Duke DID recruit Webber and all of his 'fashion statement.'

unexpected
03-16-2011, 07:51 AM
Let's be real here:

Grant Hill was a 7x All-Star, 4x All-NBA.

Jalen Rose won the Most Improved Player in 2000!

Chris Webber was a 5x All-Star, 5x All-NBA player.

How soon we forget how good Grant Hill was before we got injured. The fact that he's still playing at a high level, even now, at age 38 (an incredibly rarity for a SG/SF) speaks to his high level of basketball IQ and knowledge.

Hill was a far, far better player than Rose. It's not even a question.

Hill vs Webber is more debatable. I would say they're relatively even - especially in terms of career stats. Webber has more points, but if Hill plays another year, should pass him. Both careers were cut short by injuries.

and Hill, no question, is a far better person.

Feel free to use wikipedia and basketball-reference.com to research your assertions in the future.






Also Webber had a significantly better nba career than Grant Hill. Arguably Jalen Rose did as well.

unexpected
03-16-2011, 08:03 AM
Let's be clear on why we didn't recruit these guys:

Jalen Rose - 6'7" SF. Grant Hill taking his spot. If Jalen came, he wouldn't have started for 2 years. He wouldn't have had that.

Ray Jackson - 6'6 SG/SF. Again, same position as Grant Hill/Thomas Hill. Ray Jackson also wasn't that good. If you watch the documentary, he was the lowest ranked recruit - around #50. How many of those does Duke even recruit now?

Also, let's be real here: Ray Jackson is from Austin, Texas. He's not some inner-city Detroit kid.

Webber - 6'9" PF. We did recruit Webber! No real argument here. It's interesting now that Webber seems to be caught in between two worlds. He so desperately wants to be a part of the "street cred" that Jalen represents; however, he doesn't have that background - he went to a private school in Detroit.

Several times in the documentary (and also several times in real life), Webber has appeared self-interested - trying to position himself to one world/the other wold when it suits him (and makes him more money). It's amazing to me that the documentary spends a lot of time bashing him, and he completely glosses over that in the commentary on his website - yet he's trying to attach himself to the project after the fact.

Juwon Howard - 6'9" PF - Maybe we should have recruited him. I've always liked him. He reminds me a lot of Sean Dockery. However, with Laettner and how we were recruiting Webber ahead of him, I can see why we didn't.

Jimmy King - 6'5" SG/PG. Again, this guy is competing with Bobby Hurley. Again, he wasn't a highly regarded recruit.

Also, Jimmy King went to my high school. It's about as suburban as you can get. King is definitely not some inner-city street kid. Any "street cred" that he's trying to represent now is hilarious to me.

BD80
03-16-2011, 08:55 AM
The Fab Five were all sizzle - because they cared more about their "expression" than winning basketball games. How on earth could a team with Juwan Howard, Chris Webber and Jalen Rose NOT win the Big Ten?

The Fab Five were also frauds. As noted in the thread, Webber, King and Jackson were underprivileged kids, but they tried to clothe themselves with Rose's street cred. Howard never reveled in his situation, rather, he took great public pride in honoring a promise he made to his grandmother that he would graduate - doing so on time despite leaving a year early - by taking courses while an NBA rookie. Howard committed very early, not giving many schools a chance to recruit him.

Jalen Rose was a punk in high school, completely toxic. What coach with an established program would have taken a chance on him? As the "documentary" noted, Fisher was that desperate.

It is amusing that Matteen Cleaves got involved in the discussion. He came from a VERY bad area in Flint, and also had a rep. He and Izzo famously butted heads for most of Matteen's college carreer. Only the senior year run to a Championship placed Matteen in the upper echelon of "winners" and leaders. An early out that year would have turned his story into one of wasted talent. Matteen flamed out with the Pistons because his posse from Flint muscled back into his life once the NBA cash started to flow.

Yes, Coach K has the luxury of recruiting less risky players. Ask the now unemployed Jeff Capel how he feels about his recent risky recruits. How much longer did Fisher last at Michigan bringing in such guys?

Do we really want to start the argument about why underprivileged kids are often the greater risk? Look no further than Rose's resentment at his first pick in the NBA draft absentee father as the source of his malcontent.

killerleft
03-16-2011, 08:56 AM
TheItinerantSon says:

"And because of that Steve Fisher not being the center of attention was the whole point of the Fab Five. And if they took money from boosters...well that fits too and I respect them even more for it."

Bernie Madoff needed you on the jury. Or every two-bit hustler we can come up with. Stickin' it to the man... committing their crime of choice. Kind of like Robn Hood?

NashvilleDevil
03-16-2011, 09:18 AM
Grant Hill's editorial is going to be in the Sunday NY Times. Since the doc was the most viewed in ESPN history and the Duke talk has persisted I wonder how much press will be given to Hill's response?

Also, and I am not going to link to the site, Jalen Rose just tweeted a link to the infamous email that was sent to Elton after he declared and Elton's reply. If a 12 year old email is all Jalen has to continue his argument I would say he is definitely losing the public opinion battle.

dukebluesincebirth
03-16-2011, 09:42 AM
"Also, Jimmy King went to my high school. It's about as suburban as you can get. King is definitely not some inner-city street kid. Any "street cred" that he's trying to represent now is hilarious to me."

And he's on ESPN First Take yesterday as Jalen's sidekick talking about how he told these former Duke players all of these comments to their faces, on the court. What a badass Jimmy King is, talking smack to the privileged Duke boys when he was nowhere near poverty-stricken. The word you used in your last sentence is sounding more and more like the best descriptive for the whole situation: "hilarious."

Spret42
03-16-2011, 09:47 AM
It's interesting that Jimmy failed to recall that we had predominantly black teams in the past (i.e., the 1998-1999 teams with an all-black starting lineup for the 1999 team; not that "that" should even be important).

There is a perception around that the mostly black 1999 team left Coach K feeling very burned. I remember people saying that group of players was Coach K going away from his historical recruiting style and and bringing in inner city blacks like Avery, Maggette and Brand. The thought was when they left all left early that Coach K went back to recruiting more the way he was comfortable.

I don't know how much of it is true.

The Brand email back and forth is going to be around forever because it backs up a ton of peoples preconceived notions.

Class of '94
03-16-2011, 09:48 AM
Grant Hill's editorial is going to be in the Sunday NY Times. Since the doc was the most viewed in ESPN history and the Duke talk has persisted I wonder how much press will be given to Hill's response?

Also, and I am not going to link to the site, Jalen Rose just tweeted a link to the infamous email that was sent to Elton after he declared and Elton's reply. If a 12 year old email is all Jalen has to continue his argument I would say he is definitely losing the public opinion battle.

Personally, I don't get the point of why Jalen brought Elton letter up since he and the Fab 5 received far worse and more threatening letters from U of M alums and people associated with the school than the letter Elton received. Saying that, Elton Brand went to Duke after I graduated, and I can't speak to how he felt about his time at Duke; but I got the sense that geniunely enjoyed his time playing for Coach K and his teammates. And feel free to correct me; but I believe Elton has been back to Duke several times in the summer to work out and participate in Coach K's academies.

dukebballcamper90-91
03-16-2011, 09:54 AM
and I still hate all 5 of them and Michigan too

Spret42
03-16-2011, 09:58 AM
Grant Hill is the best player in Duke history and it isn't close. His career was far better than either Webber's or Rose's an it isn't close.

I do understand and agree with the sentiment that G'town, UNLV, Miami football were basically framed by the media in those years as "ni@@er teams." I also agree that the Fab Five massively overestimate their own importance in the history of their sport and in the history of the black athlete in America. They really were a few years of silliness an nothing else.

Those other three programs won stuff. They kicked tail and will forever be mildly demonized for being an example Ken Burns' wonderful term - "Unforgiveable Blackness."

TheItinerantSon
03-16-2011, 10:39 AM
Jalen Rose made it to the nba finals as the best player on a team.
Chris Webber led a team to the western conference finals and also headlined one of the more iconic teams in recent NBA history.

Grant Hill (who deserves a pass for his injuries) never made it out of the first round as one of the top 3 players on a team.

dukebluesincebirth
03-16-2011, 10:43 AM
"I also agree that the Fab Five massively overestimate their own importance in the history of their sport and in the history of the black athlete in America. They really were a few years of silliness an nothing else."--Spret42

I couldn't agree more. They are such typical wannabe's. Jalen admitted that he was a wannabe when he was 18, he's just having trouble understanding that he hasn't changed much. The Fab 5 will want to be national champions for the rest of their lives I guess. They'll just have to settle for watching Coach K win them.

BobbyFan
03-16-2011, 10:48 AM
Personally, I don't get the point of why Jalen brought Elton letter up since he and the Fab 5 received far worse and more threatening letters from U of M alums and people associated with the school than the letter Elton received.

Agreed. It's clear that Rose has a vendetta against the Duke program and is still quite immature, though he tries to portray himself as otherwise. I've lost plenty of respect I had for him after his 30 for 30 production came out.

And I don't understand the general reaction to this documentary of giving him kudos for "telling it like it is".

dukebluesincebirth
03-16-2011, 10:58 AM
From Jason Whitlock's article on the Fab 5 documentary and following comments:

"Last week Webber published this bit of nonsense on his blog.
The Fab Five clearly believe Coach K and Duke didn’t and don’t recruit inner-city black kids, and they believe race/racism/elitism are the driving forces behind the philosophy."

Quite an accusation by Webber, basically calling Coach K and the university racists. These guys are unbelievable. I hope we have apologies coming.

BobbyFan
03-16-2011, 10:59 AM
I also agree that the Fab Five massively overestimate their own importance in the history of their sport and in the history of the black athlete in America.

Their claims that they were bigger than the sport is revisionist. Don't get me wrong: they made headlines and people tuned in to watch them play. But in recent years it has been media outlets like ESPN with the 30 for 30 documentary, along with other shorter specials they had previously done, that grossly exaggerate the Fab Five's importance and impact.

The picture that the general public had of the Fab Five, say in 1998, isn't anywhere nearly what it has become following the retrospective hype provided by ESPN in recent years.

It was pathetic that one of them proudly claimed that no one can name the starting lineup of the 93 UNC team, but everyone knows the Fab Five (although the casual fan would not remember King, Jackson, and perhaps Howard).

Duvall
03-16-2011, 11:09 AM
There is a perception around that the mostly black 1999 team left Coach K feeling very burned. I remember people saying that group of players was Coach K going away from his historical recruiting style and and bringing in inner city blacks like Avery, Maggette and Brand. The thought was when they left all left early that Coach K went back to recruiting more the way he was comfortable.

I don't know how much of it is true.

Well, I can tell you than none of those guys was from the inner city, though it depends on what you want to call a city. So there's that.

People say a lot of stuff, most of which is pure invention. What was Duke's "historical recruiting style," anyway?

NashvilleDevil
03-16-2011, 11:54 AM
Jalen Rose made it to the nba finals as the best player on a team.


I am sure Reggie Miller would have something to say about that.

Bostondevil
03-16-2011, 11:59 AM
Greg Wendt was/is from Detroit. (Ducks the flying tomatoes.)

Academics plays a part in who Duke recruits. Their minimum requirements are higher than the NCAA's minimums. So, Mr. Rose, could you have made those requirements? Did you study in high school? If Duke didn't recruit you, it wasn't because of the color of your skin. Wanting to succeed after college just in case the NBA doesn't work out does not make you an Uncle Tom. Studying - it's just a good idea. Maybe you could have hit the books a couple of times instead of finding new ways to say offensive things to other players?

And speaking of prejudices, with the advent of the Duke Hatred (in light of recent events we need another word besides the one we've been using that starts with a T), how many of us have been subjected to highly inappropriate and offensive comments when it becomes known that we're Dukies? I get it all the time. I've had some wipe their hand after shaking mine (no kidding). I've been told, "No offense, but I view Duke as the root of all things evil." My kid came home in tears from Little League practice because the coach wouldn't let him play until he took his Duke sweatshirt off. (I wasn't there so I don't know if the guy was joking. I went out and bought my son a plain sweatshirt for future practices.) Coach K has been called evil and shown in the newspaper with devil horns drawn on his head. Is this stuff really OK? Really? I'm of the opinion that there are enough mentally unstable people in the world that someday somebody is going to get killed because they just happen to be a Duke fan in the wrong place at the wrong time. Jalen Rose's 'Uncle Tom' comments are adding fuel to the fire.

I hope Grant Hill does do a documentary and I hope some of it addresses how acceptable all the vitriol has become.

moonpie23
03-16-2011, 12:02 PM
I disagree strongly. Ill-advised though his comments may be, Jalen Rose is making a plenty good living as a very good analyst, and his remarks DON'T diminish the accomplishment of reaching the title game, which Orange&BlackSheep has pointed out..........someone who can't leave their name on my comments box..


actually it DOES diminish the accomplishment....

look, there are two dynamics working here. (3 if you count fashion) Social and basketball.

If you only look a the SOCIAL dynamic of the Fab 5's "statement to the world" it's a very interesting focal point and undeniable social aspect. Take away the basketball aspect of it, and it may as well be a hip-hop group. Making the statement, garnering a following and fanbase but the only competition is on the Billboard Charts.

If you ONLY look at the basketball dynamic, they were talented kids who had a pretty good, but certainly not dominant run. then they ran into duke and got it handed to them by a MUCH better team. To say that jalen was a better ball player than hurley was just incorrect. Bobby is STILL the all time assists leader and lead his team to THREE consecutive final fours and TWO of them were titles.....Jalen rose doesn't even get to sniff that basketball profile..

jalen is being dogmatic in trying to STILL uphold his hatred and venom against the team that beat him down, which is nothing more than sour grapes. Him making this documentary and still whining about it doesn't make his basketball achievements any better.

Orange&BlackSheep
03-16-2011, 12:10 PM
wow some of you are kind of dense. To say that the Fab 5 was just hype and sizzle and a fashion statement really misses the point. Who cares whether they won the championship or not...I mean as entertaining as these games are, they're just a spectacle unless we use them to understand our world better.

And in that context the Fab 5 were a lot more meaningful than all of their opponents combined. How many of their opponents are discussed in college lit programs.

Why are you a duke fan? What does duke basketball mean to you? I hope to God, its more than just because some ancestor of yours once lived in or near duke's campus. Duke basketball, like everything else of significance, means something. It represents a certain set of values and a certain vision of America (the same way notre dame or nebraska football does). And when Jalen Rose doesn't get recruited by Duke despite how talented he is, thats a rejection of him and his community by a whole segment of america (and regardless of what bobby hurley says, on no planet is he or Thomas Hill half as good at basketball as jalen rose).

And its actually worse than that. Its not just that Duke doesn't recruit him, but anyone who does would be vilified.

Georgetown Basketball. UNLV Basketball. Miami Football. The programs that do recruit kids like Jalen Rose...are marginalized by the sports media. When the sports media says thug it sounds an awful lot like N****. Think about it. Christian Laetnerr stomps on an opponent during a game but Chris Webber's the thug?

There's an urban clothing line called FUBU. It's come to stand for 'For Us By Us'. That is what the fab five is about.

Bobby Knight has been mentioned in positive terms a couple of times in this thread. Thats the type of coach and the type of program that some of you would have Jalen Rose and his friends sign up to play for. They're supposed to sit on the bench, wait their turn, and when they do get to play they're supposed to sublimate their game to fit his continuity offense? They're supposed to mute their identity and fit in, so that the system around them can make millions of dollars?

Well the game is about the players. And the Fab 5 was a rejection of all that. They were a fashion statement - They were stating that basketball is a form of expression. They were proving that different stylistic visions of basketball are OK in college basketball, just as different cultural practices (dress/hair/music/speech) should be OK in america.

And because of that Steve Fisher not being the center of attention was the whole point of the Fab Five. And if they took money from boosters...well that fits too and I respect them even more for it.


(As an aside, some of you guys complain that Roy Williams and Bill Self recruit the same kids that Coach K does and yet don't get criticized for it. WELL OF COURSE THEY DON'T! They also don't have credit card commercials. And UNC and Kansas are not Duke. Of course they arent held to the same standard - they're random public universities they don't matter - like it or not Duke does.)


Also Webber had a significantly better nba career than Grant Hill. Arguably Jalen Rose did as well.

I had trouble even reading what else you had to say after reading that statement. To say that Bobby Hurley was not the superior point guard at that time means you really don't know much about basketball. Now, given Bobby's career ending injury, we will never know what kind of pro he might or might not have become. I will grant that Jalen's height advantage probably means that was going to have a superior pro career. Bobby's showing against the dream team proved he was a pro level point guard, and he was not drafted as high as he was because he was not going to be a significant contributor on an NBA floor. And yes I know draft position in itself means nothing.

dukebluesincebirth
03-16-2011, 12:18 PM
Greg Wendt was/is from Detroit. (Ducks the flying tomatoes.)

Academics plays a part in who Duke recruits. Their minimum requirements are higher than the NCAA's minimums. So, Mr. Rose, could you have made those requirements? Did you study in high school? If Duke didn't recruit you, it wasn't because of the color of your skin. Wanting to succeed after college just in case the NBA doesn't work out does not make you an Uncle Tom. Studying - it's just a good idea. Maybe you could have hit the books a couple of times instead of finding new ways to say offensive things to other players?

And speaking of prejudices, with the advent of the Duke Hatred (in light of recent events we need another word besides the one we've been using that starts with a T), how many of us have been subjected to highly inappropriate and offensive comments when it becomes known that we're Dukies? I get it all the time. I've had some wipe their hand after shaking mine (no kidding). I've been told, "No offense, but I view Duke as the root of all things evil." My kid came home in tears from Little League practice because the coach wouldn't let him play until he took his Duke sweatshirt off. (I wasn't there so I don't know if the guy was joking. I went out and bought my son a plain sweatshirt for future practices.) Coach K has been called evil and shown in the newspaper with devil horns drawn on his head. Is this stuff really OK? Really? I'm of the opinion that there are enough mentally unstable people in the world that someday somebody is going to get killed because they just happen to be a Duke fan in the wrong place at the wrong time. Jalen Rose's 'Uncle Tom' comments are adding fuel to the fire.

I hope Grant Hill does do a documentary and I hope some of it addresses how acceptable all the vitriol has become.

Great points and I agree with them all. I had to decided to ignore this documentary before all the comments followed. When Jalen stood by his "Uncle Tom" comments on ESPN First Take yesterday, that crossed a line. Chris Webber's tweet (I posted earlier in this thread) about Duke's recruiting being guided by racism/elitism crossed a line. Jalen making stupid comments such as "I've never seen Coach K in Detroit" is ridiculous. Shame on ESPN for broadcasting/allowing/promoting this weak attempt at a documentary.

Mike Corey
03-16-2011, 12:20 PM
Grant Hill's editorial is going to be in the Sunday NY Times. Since the doc was the most viewed in ESPN history and the Duke talk has persisted I wonder how much press will be given to Hill's response?

It's already getting a great deal of buzz, just in anticipation of what it might say.

Coach K says it is an amazing piece.

tommy
03-16-2011, 12:25 PM
Greg Wendt was/is from Detroit. (Ducks the flying tomatoes.)

Academics plays a part in who Duke recruits. Their minimum requirements are higher than the NCAA's minimums. So, Mr. Rose, could you have made those requirements? Did you study in high school? If Duke didn't recruit you, it wasn't because of the color of your skin. Wanting to succeed after college just in case the NBA doesn't work out does not make you an Uncle Tom. Studying - it's just a good idea. Maybe you could have hit the books a couple of times instead of finding new ways to say offensive things to other players?

And speaking of prejudices, with the advent of the Duke Hatred (in light of recent events we need another word besides the one we've been using that starts with a T), how many of us have been subjected to highly inappropriate and offensive comments when it becomes known that we're Dukies? I get it all the time. I've had some wipe their hand after shaking mine (no kidding). I've been told, "No offense, but I view Duke as the root of all things evil." My kid came home in tears from Little League practice because the coach wouldn't let him play until he took his Duke sweatshirt off. (I wasn't there so I don't know if the guy was joking. I went out and bought my son a plain sweatshirt for future practices.)

I wish you had gone out and bought him a sweatshirt with "Duke" in even bigger letters and dared that coach to say another freakin word about what clothing your child wore to baseball practice.

g-money
03-16-2011, 12:31 PM
I saw the President of the United States picking a bracket on TV this morning, and could not help but think that by Jalen Rose's standards he would be called an "Uncle Tom".

Hot air-spewing idiots like Rose are a part of the problem, not the solution. While I personally feel most of his comments about Duke are derived from jealousy, he's wading into a much bigger debate in which he has little ground to stand on.

Unless black youth in America are applauded rather than ostracized for succeeding academically and in life, we'll never reach true equality in the US. ESPN should be called to the carpet for promoting this garbage from one of their own employees.

I'm excited to see Grant give Rose a smackdown on Sunday.

moonpie23
03-16-2011, 12:37 PM
i think if jalen had laughed and said, "i still feel the same way about it, Duke was the team that beat us down, so i'm taking out my frustration on them...", i'd respect his view more...

Class of '94
03-16-2011, 12:57 PM
It's already getting a great deal of buzz, just in anticipation of what it might say.

Coach K says it is an amazing piece.

I'm proud of the way that guys like Bobby and Grant from those Duke teams of the early 90's have taken a stand and responded back to Jalen and the comments made by the Fab 5 doc.

Mike or anyone else who might be connected with the program, do you think Coach K will address the Fab 5 doc or any of the comments made by Rose, King and Webber? I know now is not the time for that; but somewhere down the road, do you think K might communicate his thoughts about this?

Scoring Point
03-16-2011, 12:58 PM
I'm far from an expert on HH, but I don't think this is particularly accurate. AIUI, HH has undergone three major "mainstreamings," that is, degrees of absorption into [predominantly White] mainstream American culture.

The first was in the mid-1980s. Rap had been around for quite a while in AfAm culture (Nelson George is a good source on this), but the mid 1980s is basically when White people found out about rap. Major figures include Jam Master Jay and especially KRS-One, who is a huge presence in socially-conscious rap.

The proximate cause of the second mainstreaming, again, AIUI, was The Chronic. So you get this West Coast sound popular all over the country. But Dre didn't release that album until December 1992. And summer 1993 is really when it blew up. By the time of release, the core Fab 5 had already played a complete season and were into their second. Their two great seasons mostly--almost entirely--preceded the "mushrooming" that resulted from that album.

The third mainstreaming occurs around 1999 through 2001. Blueprint was a particularly important document here, but there are others. Indeed, Jay-Z has managed to transform himself into a global brand as much as a musician. This is roughly the point at which HH becomes so mainstream that it isn't solely "Black music," at least not in a completely racialized space dictated by the white racial frame. (It's still somewhat racialized, but most of the White people under 35 I know listen to HH and do not consider it exclusively racialized music). It's kind of similar with what happened with Michael Jackson in pop in the 1980s. People were like "damn, Thriller is hot!" rather than considering Michael Jackson a "Black musician" per se.

Anyone who is more literate in HH than I am, feel free to correct or refine this. But I don't see a single mushrooming at the time Jalen Rose is wearing baggy shorts, and indeed, Chronic--perhaps the most important HH album of all time, wouldn't even be issued until two years after these guys signed with Steve Fisher. And HH had become somewhat mainstream when those guys were in like sixth grade. I also believe it reductive to label HH as simply an artifact of "a culture of defiance." Defiance is part of the fabric of HH, and it should be, given the prevalence of institutional racism. But there's so much more to it.

Other points: Jason Whitlock tears the documentary a new one:

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/ESPN-The-Fab-Five-documentary-Jalen-Rose-Chris-Webber-Juwan-Howard-Jimmy-King-Ray-Jackson-031511

Basically, he says the documentary is a facile distortion of what actually happened into a pre-cooked narrative.

Lastly, why isn't anyone talking about Travis Best? Dude had the shorts 2/3 the way down his calf. He's still the avatar of long shorts to me.

ETA: sorry, Striker linked Whitlock first. Well, you get it linked twice.

Well, I would never refer to myself as a hip-hop afficionado, and certainly not a music critis (the vast majority of whom across genres are useless, in my view)

But I was a mid to late 20ish single guy with wide-ranging tastes in music - in addition to being a borderline psychotic college hoops fan - during the late 80s and early 90s, and I remember this period well. As I recall it, as someone who actually lived through it and was paying attention during the time, the following all occurred between 1988 and 1991 (order may be off slightly):

- "Yo MTV Raps" debuted on MTV and was an instant success
- Rap and hip-hop videos garnered significantly more airtime on MTV in general
- Coverage of rap and hip hop in mainstream print media such as Spin, Rolling Stone, Melody Maker and even Entertainment Weekly grew dramatically
- NWA released "Straight Outta Compton", and the term "Gangsta Rap" entered the vernacular soon thereafter
- Public Enemy's "Fight the Power", which explicitly dissed Elvis and John Wayne, was used as the theme song for Spike Lee's critically acclaimed and commercially successful movie "Do the Right Thing"; the importance of this alone in the "mainstreaming" of rap and hip-hop cannot be overstated
- MTV added a "Best New Rap Video" award to its annual awards show
- NWA and former member Ice Cube engaged in what I recall as the genre's first truly public feud (dis fest)
- You simply could not go to a dance oriented club in Chicago's (mostly white and yuppified) North Side neighborhoods and not hear (and see accompanying videos in the background) a healthy dollop of rap and hip hop. To be fair, you heard stuff like "Me Myself and I", "Can I Kick It?" and "Humpty Dance" more often than the likes of Public Enemy or NWA, but the sound and overall vibe were inescapable.

The above all happened while the Fab 5 were in high school. I agree that hip-hop cannot be defined by disrespect and defiance alone. But those strains, along with a more generally free form of expression, were clearly in motion at that time. And just as clearly embraced by the Fab 5. So I stand by my original statement. And then some.

Snork
03-16-2011, 01:13 PM
Grant Hill's response was just posted:

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/grant-hills-response-to-jalen-rose/

I particularly like the closing: "I am proud of my family. I am proud of my Duke championships and all my Duke teammates. And, I am proud I never lost a game against the Fab Five."

steely2400
03-16-2011, 01:22 PM
Grant Hill's response was just posted:

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/grant-hills-response-to-jalen-rose/

I particularly like the closing: "I am proud of my family. I am proud of my Duke championships and all my Duke teammates. And, I am proud I never lost a game against the Fab Five."

That article brought tears to my eyes. It embodies why I always have been and always will be a Duke fan. That my friends is class, unlike what the world wide leader will put out.

Bostondevil
03-16-2011, 01:24 PM
I wish you had gone out and bought him a sweatshirt with "Duke" in even bigger letters and dared that coach to say another freakin word about what clothing your child wore to baseball practice.

If it had been me, I would have. My son didn't want to go there and I didn't make him. Three things in that coaches defense - first, other than that incident, my son liked him (probably the main reason he didn't want me making an issue of it.) Second, the coach was a college kid himself (Boston College). Third, like I said, I wasn't there, I don't know if it was just a joke that my son misunderstood or what. When I was in college, I might have made a big deal about a kid wearing a UNC sweatshirt if I'd been coaching something so, I will make some allowances for youth. In the moment I was really angry and ready to spit fire but after I allowed myself to calm down, I decided it wasn't worth creating bad feelings on the team over it.

moonpie23
03-16-2011, 01:32 PM
rose looks SO much more ridiculous after reading that...


thanks, grant...

Son of Mojo
03-16-2011, 01:32 PM
Grant Hill's response was just posted:

http://thequad.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/16/grant-hills-response-to-jalen-rose/

I particularly like the closing: "I am proud of my family. I am proud of my Duke championships and all my Duke teammates. And, I am proud I never lost a game against the Fab Five."

And THIS is yet another reason for all of us to be fans and proud of Grant Hill.

Bostondevil
03-16-2011, 01:34 PM
Grant Hill for President! Man o man, tell me a mother who doesn't want their son to grow up to be like Grant Hill! All four of my sons will be reading this response, I can assure you.

oldnavy
03-16-2011, 01:36 PM
rose looks SO much more ridiculous after reading that...


thanks, grant...

Just another testament to Grant's greatness, it is really an accomplishment to make Jalen Rose look more stupid than he does by himself....

AlaskanAssassin
03-16-2011, 01:56 PM
Loved Grant's post, though (not a big deal), kind of wished he said 'we' instead of 'i' when he said " I am proud I never lost a game against the Fab Five."

Orange&BlackSheep
03-16-2011, 02:04 PM
Does anybody see the irony in someone complaining about the way that the Duke players grew up when he is the genetic progeny of a great NBA basketball player?

How about this, Jalen: I resent you for having an advantage that I did not have.

Spret42
03-16-2011, 02:29 PM
This thing has gotten out of control.

Both Rose and Hill have valid points. I hate the way this whole thing has gotten stirred up.

Duvall
03-16-2011, 02:33 PM
This thing has gotten out of control.

Both Rose and Hill have valid points. I hate the way this whole thing has gotten stirred up.

Yes, it certainly was awful the way Jalen Rose produced this film in which Jalen Rose was interviewed about Jalen Rose's life, and the way Jalen Rose has appeared repeatedly on ESPN to discuss Jalen Rose's thoughts on Jalen Rose. I don't know how this got so stirred up.

wilson
03-16-2011, 02:34 PM
I hate the way this whole thing has gotten stirred up.I don't. Jalen and his boys produced an absurdly self-congratulatory film which overblows their cultural significance and retroactively picks a fight by casting needless personal attacks at a team and a program which absolutely OWNED them on the court. Grant Hill, a shining example of everything we want Duke students and athletes to be, has responded in the best forum available to him, in a manner which should make every Blue Devil proud.
The Fab Five, with their zero conference titles and zero national titles, are getting exactly what they asked for.

Spret42
03-16-2011, 02:38 PM
Did I say it wasn't deserved?

Rose chose his words poorly and was unable to adequately and succinctly make a point that has been talked about in the black community (especially the poor and black community) forever. He walked into the buzzsaw. He deserves it. That doesn't mean I have to like that it became this big.

unexpected
03-16-2011, 03:00 PM
Did I say it wasn't deserved?

Rose chose his words poorly and was unable to adequately and succinctly make a point that has been talked about in the black community (especially the poor and black community) forever. He walked into the buzzsaw. He deserves it. That doesn't mean I have to like that it became this big.

Rose, Howard, and King produced this film. They had ample opportunity to revise their quotes, how they were portrayed, etc. I'm sure they viewed it many multiples of times, not only in front of themselves, but in front of their publicists, ESPN execs, the 30 for 30 team, etc.

Notice how they've booked all the media appearances, etc. They knew all the angles on this one. Drawing as much attention as they can does two things 1) bring their names into the spotlight once again 2) enhances the documentary value - it's available on Amazons/iTunes/etc to buy.

The Fab Five shows it's all about the $$. But given the decisions they have made, wasn't it always?

steely2400
03-16-2011, 03:00 PM
Can someone please enlighten me as to the Elton Brand email issue?

wilson
03-16-2011, 03:13 PM
Can someone please enlighten me as to the Elton Brand email issue?Basically, a misguided young Duke alum emailed him after he announced his early NBA Draft entry telling him how disappointed she was and how he didn't sufficiently appreciate the "honor and privilege" of being a Duke student. Elton responded by slamming that privilege and not-so-delicately reminding her that not everyone at Duke could afford to overlook the opportunity to make millions of dollars in rather short order.
I'd provide a link, but the sites where the story is most readily available are ones to which I'm not willing to direct page hits.
It has been resurrected by a Jalen Rose tweet in recent days, yet another indication that he is mostly interested in self-promotion and completely willing to use culturally charged rhetoric to keep his name and his film in the news.

Spret42
03-16-2011, 03:16 PM
Rose, Howard, and King produced this film. They had ample opportunity to revise their quotes, how they were portrayed, etc. I'm sure they viewed it many multiples of times, not only in front of themselves, but in front of their publicists, ESPN execs, the 30 for 30 team, etc.

Notice how they've booked all the media appearances, etc. They knew all the angles on this one. Drawing as much attention as they can does two things 1) bring their names into the spotlight once again 2) enhances the documentary value - it's available on Amazons/iTunes/etc to buy.

The Fab Five shows it's all about the $$. But given the decisions they have made, wasn't it always?

I think you misinterpret what I mean when I said Rose was "unable." I meant unable in the sense that I am not sure he or any of them have the vocabulary to adequately and succinctly put into words what many people in the black community have talked about for years.

drdoctormd
03-16-2011, 03:16 PM
Does anybody see the irony in someone complaining about the way that the Duke players grew up when he is the genetic progeny of a great NBA basketball player?

How about this, Jalen: I resent you for having an advantage that I did not have.

Totally agree. I came away from that part of the documentary feeling like that was some jealous, maybe righteous or maybe misplaced, but I felt sorry for Rose. I thought to myself that I couldn't blame him, I'll never know what he went through--I've a 180-degree opposite life.

On the other hand, I felt the three players represented took absolutely no personal responsibility and played the victims, especially in the part about the banners being taken down. It was as if "Michigan stabbed us in the back" (think that was an actual quote)...nothing about how Michigan--who provided them with an education (or at least offered it) and a place to develop and showcase their talents for the next level-- was severely wounded by the actions of some of the players.

I'm sure it's been mentioned, but I'm sure we've recruited and won some players from underprivileged backgrounds.

loldevilz
03-16-2011, 03:39 PM
Am I the only one that thinks that its absurd that Jalen Rose is acting as if the Duke basketball team is somehow responsible for saving players from single and impoverished families?

I'm as liberal as anyone, but helping the poor seems to me like a political problem and not the responsibility of Coach K's Blue Devils.

Anyways I suppose this is the general malaise of current thinking. As Harold Bloom pointed out, some time ago Universities became the cause and solution of all societal problems as absurd as that sounds.

moonpie23
03-16-2011, 03:39 PM
look....rose could have easily said "a lot of schools"....or "most schools" don't recruit players like us...


he deliberately called out duke cause he hates them for kicking their butts....

tendev
03-16-2011, 03:47 PM
I think you misinterpret what I mean when I said Rose was "unable." I meant unable in the sense that I am not sure he or any of them have the vocabulary to adequately and succinctly put into words what many people in the black community have talked about for years.

Maybe you can help him. What should he have said?

cato
03-16-2011, 03:53 PM
I meant unable in the sense that I am not sure he or any of them have the vocabulary to adequately and succinctly put into words what many people in the black community have talked about for years.

Jalen Rose makes his living by communicating. I'm sure his vocabulary is up to the task.

OldSchool
03-16-2011, 04:21 PM
On the other hand, I felt the three players represented took absolutely no personal responsibility and played the victims, especially in the part about the banners being taken down. It was as if "Michigan stabbed us in the back" (think that was an actual quote)...nothing about how Michigan--who provided them with an education (or at least offered it) and a place to develop and showcase their talents for the next level-- was severely wounded by the actions of some of the players.

I noted the same thing. So they had no respect for Duke, because Duke didn't recruit them. Okay, fine.

But Michigan recruited them. Did they have respect for Michigan? Well, actually, no. They decided that the university was "exploiting" them. They were more important than the university -- they even took the word "Michigan" off the t-shirts they wore when being introduced for a game. And they (or some of them) cheated, because they decided that they were "victims" and therefore entitled and were above having to follow rules.

Their actions resulted in Michigan having to vacate their wins, and suffer sanctions. They pretty much destroyed the University of Michigan basketball program, which has yet to recover to the level it was before they arrived. Yes, many of the violations continued after they left, but they got the ball rolling.

While leaving destruction in their wake, the Fab Five went on to professional basketball, free to exploit their athletic skills and the fame and popularity they developed at the University of Michigan. Webber and Rose made many millions in the NBA and are popular enough to be highly-paid NBA commentators to this day.

Spret42
03-16-2011, 04:27 PM
Maybe you can help him. What should he have said?

It is all very touchy. In short- What Rose felt at the time he was a young man and to some extent now, and what is felt by many in the black community still, is that Duke basketball has no interest in taking any risks with regard to black athletes that aren't "safe."

Black folks talk about this stuff. A lot. There are many different takes on many different things within the black community. One of those feelings, and it is a feeling that Rose represents, is being glad that Hill, Jay Williams et al did well at Duke. At the same time many feel that Duke and Coach K reject out of hand an entire section of the black community as not "Duke material' and that the rejection is based solely on socio-economic status.

For many, the media pointing out the success of Dukes middle class black athletes feels as though it is another way of saying you have no place.

Spret42
03-16-2011, 04:32 PM
Jalen Rose makes his living by communicating. I'm sure his vocabulary is up to the task.

He gets paid to communicate and analyze basketball. That is different than communicating the very difficult and touchy area of race and basketball.

duke79
03-16-2011, 04:44 PM
It is all very touchy. In short- What Rose felt at the time he was a young man and to some extent now, and what is felt by many in the black community still, is that Duke basketball has no interest in taking any risks with regard to black athletes that aren't "safe."

Black folks talk about this stuff. A lot. There are many different takes on many different things within the black community. One of those feelings, and it is a feeling that Rose represents, is being glad that Hill, Jay Williams et al did well at Duke. At the same time many feel that Duke and Coach K reject out of hand an entire section of the black community as not "Duke material' and that the rejection is based solely on socio-economic status.

For many, the media pointing out the success of Dukes middle class black athletes feels as though it is another way of saying you have no place.

Being as completely out of touch with the "Black community" as one can be (I must live in the "whitest" area of the US), I have no direct knowledge of what inner city blacks are thinking about Duke (if they are thinking about Duke at all?), but it would not surprise me if what you say is true. I'm sure many other inner city basketball players feel the same way that Jalen Rose obviously felt (right or wrong) about the recruiting at Duke. I watched the documentary and found him to be sincere (but perhaps misguided) in his resentment and jealousy towards the Duke players. Obviously, he used a poor choice of words to accuse them of being "Uncle Toms" but I have no doubt he felt that way at the time and may still feel that way.

Scoring Point
03-16-2011, 05:01 PM
It is all very touchy. In short- What Rose felt at the time he was a young man and to some extent now, and what is felt by many in the black community still, is that Duke basketball has no interest in taking any risks with regard to black athletes that aren't "safe."

Black folks talk about this stuff. A lot. There are many different takes on many different things within the black community. One of those feelings, and it is a feeling that Rose represents, is being glad that Hill, Jay Williams et al did well at Duke. At the same time many feel that Duke and Coach K reject out of hand an entire section of the black community as not "Duke material' and that the rejection is based solely on socio-economic status.

For many, the media pointing out the success of Dukes middle class black athletes feels as though it is another way of saying you have no place.

But anyone who bothers to explore it a little further would see that it is not based solely on socio-economic status. Chris Carrawell and Sean Dockery are examples of inner city kids that were recruited by Duke. Elton Brand was not from the inner city, but did grow up in an underpriveleged, single parent family.

The "Duke material" distinction is based primarily on character and ability to succeed at the university, and not just as a basketball player.

tendev
03-16-2011, 05:27 PM
It is all very touchy. In short- What Rose felt at the time he was a young man and to some extent now, and what is felt by many in the black community still, is that Duke basketball has no interest in taking any risks with regard to black athletes that aren't "safe."

Black folks talk about this stuff. A lot. There are many different takes on many different things within the black community. One of those feelings, and it is a feeling that Rose represents, is being glad that Hill, Jay Williams et al did well at Duke. At the same time many feel that Duke and Coach K reject out of hand an entire section of the black community as not "Duke material' and that the rejection is based solely on socio-economic status.

For many, the media pointing out the success of Dukes middle class black athletes feels as though it is another way of saying you have no place.


First, I don’t think that there is any doubt Coach K is more selective about whom he recruits because Duke is a more selective university in general. So he must start from a higher baseline. Second, I am sure Coach K is not going to recruit someone he thinks will not shed a positive light on his program and Duke in general. I guess K did not think Rose fit that bill and from what I saw of him on the court, I would have to agree with K on that.

But there are other kids from hardscrabble backgrounds that K would have loved to coach. For example, he loved Juan Dixon and if Dixon wanted to go to Duke I think he could have.

Finally, do the folks in the black community whom you reference really know whom Duke recruits? There are tons of recruits who do not end up at Duke. Those misses are lamented on this board all the time. I am only guessing but I suspect that they reason may have a lot to do with the fact that they are likely to feel less comfortable at a private institution with quite wealthy and mostly white students with whom they feel no connection. All things equal, as between Duke and a public university with a more diverse (ethnically and economically) student body, they end up choosing the public university. I would venture to say it is same with white students. They go where they feel most comfortable.

-jk
03-16-2011, 05:40 PM
One Fab Five thread is enough.

-jk