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View Full Version : MBB: (ACCT Semifinals) Duke 77, Virginia Tech 63 Post-Game Thread



pfrduke
03-12-2011, 06:08 PM
Revenge tastes sweet!

dairedevil
03-12-2011, 06:10 PM
Whew! Glad that's over, now on to obsessing about the championship game tomorrow.

diveonthefloor
03-12-2011, 06:11 PM
Learned a lot today:

1) We should coach our guys to throw their face at the shooter's elbow so they can draw an offense techical foul

2) Nolan is nails!

3) Kyle is nails!

4) Duke is nails!

Lord Ash
03-12-2011, 06:11 PM
Worst officiating I've ever seen. Ever.

superdave
03-12-2011, 06:12 PM
Survive and advance, with a special emphasis on survive vs. VPI.

I thought we had nice contributions from everyone today. Nice to see the balance two games in a row. Also, special hello and thank you to Nolan's 2nd toe for its contributions today. Thanks, guy.

Chris Randolph
03-12-2011, 06:12 PM
Good win, glad to see Nolan back to himself. Thought as a whole we were inconsistent and it was frustrating to see some missed open shots (3's and close ones) and too many careless turnovers.

So far we've won our 2 games by 16 and 14, considering the struggles of many other teams in conference tourneys, can't complain too much

Lord Ash
03-12-2011, 06:13 PM
Learned a lot today:

1) We should coach our guys to throw their face at the shooter's elbow so they can draw an offense techical foul



Won't work. Remember when Kyle's face hit that guys elbow as the VT player threw his arm into Kyle's face, and Kyle got called for the foul?

Pantone #287
03-12-2011, 06:16 PM
Someone in the in-game thread said Dawkins = Shav on that foul. I think Dawkins = Daniel Ewing might be more apt. In a quick search on the rule, I was only able to find this from the women's basketball manual:

Rule 10-1 Personal fouls (live ball contact)
When the action of the arm(s) and elbows resulting from total body movement, as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting (faking) with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control, illegally contacts an opponent BELOW the shoulders during a live ball, that illegal contact may not be considered a flagrant foul for excessive swinging (Rule 4-36.7), but a personal foul, common or intentional, has been committed.
When the action of the arm(s) and elbows resulting from total body movement, as in pivoting or movement of the ball incidental to feinting (faking) with it, releasing it, or moving it to prevent a held ball or loss of control, illegally contacts an opponent ABOVE the shoulders during a live ball, that illegal contact may not be considered a flagrant foul for excessive swinging (Rule 4-36.7), but a minimum of an intentional foul has been committed.
Any foul involving excessive swinging of the arm(s) and elbow(s) (Rule 4-36.7), either above or below the shoulders during a live ball, or that otherwise meets the requirements of Rule 4-29.2.c and 4-29.3.f.1 shall be penalized by a flagrant personal foul.

grannyduke
03-12-2011, 06:18 PM
How could VT bounce the ball off Dawkins when Dawkins was standing out of bounds and retain the ball?

jipops
03-12-2011, 06:18 PM
Great defense today. But 15 turnovers on 11 assists is a recipe for disaster tomorrow

diveonthefloor
03-12-2011, 06:19 PM
How could VT bounce the ball off Dawkins when Dawkins was standing out of bounds and retain the ball?

That was the correct call, but throwing off Andre's face was a little over the top

taiw93
03-12-2011, 06:23 PM
Nolan was playing ANGRY all game. Man, is he tough. Glad to see Andre playing well again (esp on D) - even though the officials did their best effort to ruin it. Also loved the way Mason and Miles played inside. What a good effort.

Gripes: Virginia Tech doesn't play physical basketball, they play violent basketball. Additionally, the players have no control of their emotions at all (Delaney and Allen were so frustrated by Nolan and Kyle, respectively); I dislike Greenberg with a passion. That was also probably the worst officiating I have seen this year, on both sides. K's laughing at the foul and T on Andre says it all - that was (no hyperbole) the single worst call I have ever seen in a Duke game. Ever. It would have been the worst overall if not for the St. Johns and Rutgers debacle.

mgtr
03-12-2011, 06:27 PM
The best revenge of all would be for the NCAA once again to leave VT out of the NCAAs. They won't, but maybe they will make them play on Tuesday. Take what we can get.

wilko
03-12-2011, 06:30 PM
That felt good!

Aside from our traditional rival, I dislike VT the 2nd most in the conference. These Nouveau Riche wannabes would not BE in the conference if not for the power play the Virginia State Legislature applied. These guys think they are the new Maryland.. take that and the horse you rode in on Uncle Fester..


Re: the game.
I see lots of balance and confidence re-emerging. Mason looking aggressive providing just enuff interior Offense to command some attention.

Andre re asserting himself is good to see. (He was fouled on THAT drive. He had his hand on the ball taking a shot, not a wild swing. Allen MADE it the issue.. he prolly could have gotten away with BOTH of those elbows IF he had show some restraint and not beaned Dre in the Face)

Seth continuing to shoe nice moves and decisions. He slithers and is deceptive witht he ball.

Kelly taking and making a closer shot is good to see, instead of 6 missed 3s..

Singler continues to DRIVE and not settle for the 3. This has been missing for a while and I'm glad to see it back. I hope he can manage to get some fouls go his way. He seems like a punching bag just taking it and taking it... Not say he doesn't give as good as he gets... but when his fouls are called they a ticky-tak holds and bumps. He doesn't get a favorable exchange rate on the contact vs: no calls

Miles taking and making shots in an offensive flow.

Nolan did not seem bothered one bit! this Dude is amazing we are privileged to have been watching his transformation over 4 yrs.

Bob Green
03-12-2011, 06:44 PM
The best revenge of all would be for the NCAA once again to leave VT out of the NCAAs.

I am going to enjoy pulling for whoever is playing VT in the first round. And I mean whoever! Typically, I pull for all ACC teams to win in the NCAAT in order to enhance conference reputation, but I will not pull for VT under any circumstances. I hope the (C)Hokies lose by 20+ points!

cruxer
03-12-2011, 06:53 PM
I thought the elbow call on Dre was horrible, and likely wouldn't have been made had Allen not picked up the swinging elbow tech earlier. However a look at the rule book shows that maybe some clarification to the rulebook is in order. While I still don't think the foul on Dre met the spirit of the rule, the ambiguous language could justify at least a personal foul.

Here's what the book says:


{From the men's points of emphasis}
Excessive Swinging of the Elbows
Last year, there were increases in excessive swinging of the elbows. This
action should not be ignored because of the associated danger to another
player. Contact resulting from an illegally thrown elbow can cause serious
injury. Consequently, excessive swinging of the elbow(s) is a point of
emphasis.
When the arm and elbow, with the shoulder as a base (pivot) are swung
with a speed that exceeds the rest of the body as it rotates on the hips or on
the pivot foot, that action is considered to be excessive. Contact, after such
an action, shall not be ignored but shall be called a flagrant foul. When the
player’s arm(s) and elbow(s) are swung excessively but without contact, a
violation has been committed.
When the arms and elbows and the rest of the body move with the same or
similarly generated speed and contact occurs, that contact is not considered to
be excessive. However, the contact is illegal, and a foul shall be assessed.



{From rule 10 section 1}
Art. 13. When the action of the elbow(s) resulting from total body movement
contacts an opponent, that contact may not be considered excessive but a
personal foul has been committed.

I can't imagine that the rules committee collectively would think that was a foul if they saw the video tape. Allen's foul, however, swinging elbows at shoulder level without the ball, clearly met both the spirit and the letter of the rule.

Saratoga2
03-12-2011, 06:53 PM
Nolan played well despite having a foot which must have been sore. I like Nolan's scoring from a variety of angles. He wasn't totally sharp in his shooting but was under pressure. What I particulaly liked was his defense which was hardnosed and aggressive on DeLaney the entire game. He also made a couple of excellent passes inside for dunks and another that should have been.

What I didn't like was the concept of stall using Nolan to hold the ball, and then drive with about 7 seconds left. There were numerous times it didn't work, either through a charge or a turnover. I much prefer working the ball for a good shot opportunity and taking it when it presents itself. No 3's early in the clock but if a dunk opportunity presents itself, why not take it?

Kyle had an excellent game. His defensive presence and rebounding are excellent and he got the offense rolling a couple of times after it had stalled. He didn't get a lot of points but he also didn't take a lot of shots.

Andre played very well. Hard for me to understand why Allen wasn't called for a premeditated fast ball to Andre's face while he was standing out of bounds. Also the call on Andre's drive made no sense as he didn't swing his arms, just went up for a normal shot. Glad to see that he is back.

Mason has also grown a lot during the season, with shot blocking, rebounding and excellent passing. He made a couple of beauties, including a bounce pass to Ryan for a quick 2. He got some points as did the other bigs.

Miles also played very well and we certainly seemed to have a rebounding advantage, Miles picked up a few points. He can score, but one has to be judicious on how a pass is made to him, since he isn't as fluid as Mason.

What a great thing to have three bigs who can provide solide minutes. Ryan played very well again and is probably the best of the three in scoring around the basket.

Seth again did his job well. He has minimized turnovers and is kind of a ball hawk when guarding. Nice to see Tyler and Josh get a few minutes as well.

devildeac
03-12-2011, 07:10 PM
Worst officiating I've ever seen. Ever.

Worse than the 2004 semi-final game vs uCONvicts?

Reilly
03-12-2011, 07:13 PM
Glad Seth had a solid game with 10 points after the rough night two weeks ago in Blacksburg .... speaking of things Curry: what were those t-shirts that his mom and dad had on? ... looked the Iron Duke "D" logo in the middle with "The One Behind" (?) in a circle around the "D" ... a play on the "One" poster? -- don't know if I read the shirt right .... in a side note, Sonya Curry won two state high school championships in b'ball, and today in Virginia her old girls team captured yet another state crown (its 6th (my niece is on the team) ....

diveonthefloor
03-12-2011, 07:37 PM
Apparently, Jon Scheyer thought the new rule applied to Andre's layup / phantom charge call was a bit over the top:

Here's Jon's tweet:

JonScheyer

I've never seen a call like that before in my life @swallball... What is @dre_day20 supposed to do????

cruxer
03-12-2011, 07:46 PM
Based on that interpretation of the rule, you apparently are supposed to shoot without moving your elbows. Works if you have T Rex arms...

-c

mkline09
03-12-2011, 07:50 PM
Based on that interpretation of the rule, you apparently are supposed to shoot without moving your elbows. Works if you have T Rex arms...

-c

"Rules are made by people who don't want to make decisions." Mike Krzyzewski

strawbs
03-12-2011, 08:03 PM
Andre played very well. Hard for me to understand why Allen wasn't called for a premeditated fast ball to Andre's face while he was standing out of bounds. Also the call on Andre's drive made no sense as he didn't swing his arms, just went up for a normal shot. Glad to see that he is back.

i don't know what people don't understand about allen throwing the ball at Dre. Was it absolutely unnecessary for Allen to throw it at dre's head? Yes. But in reality it was a smart play because dre was standing out of bounds, and there was nothing illegal about it what so ever.

As far as the T that was called on dre, WORST CALL EVER!!!!!!!! I understand why it was called because of the wording of the rules. However, Andre didn't throw an elbow or push off, he went up for a layup and the defenders face hit his arm. He kept the ball up driving the lane, which is exactly what you are taught to do, because if you bring the ball down you are more likely to get stripped. Andre did absolutely nothing wrong on that play, and for him to be called for anything was ridiculous.

devildeac
03-12-2011, 08:08 PM
Responding to Lord Ash again about "worst officiating ever," I'll see if this box score makes him change his mind, though I can't really disagree very strongly either.


3/1/2006 • Tallahassee, Fla. (Donald L. Tucker Center)
Atlantic Coast Conference Game
No. 1 Duke
74 Florida State
79

Team 1st H 2nd H Total
No. 1 Duke 33 41 74
Florida State 36 43 79
No. 1 Duke (27-2, 14-1 ACC)

Field Goals
3-Point FGs
Free Throws
Rebounds

Player GS Min FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OR-DR TR PF Ast TO Blk Stl Pts
DeMarcus Nelson G 36 4-10 2-5 0-3 1-3 4 4 1 1 0 0 10
Greg Paulus G 28 2-4 0-0 0-0 1-3 4 3 2 4 0 0 4
J.J. Redick G 39 10-28 4-14 6-6 1-1 2 2 4 4 0 0 30
Josh McRoberts F 26 1-2 0-0 0-0 1-5 6 5 3 1 3 1 2
Shelden Williams F 32 8-13 0-0 4-7 9-7 16 5 1 6 4 2 20
Marty Pocius 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sean Dockery 20 1-3 0-1 0-0 2-1 3 2 1 0 0 0 2
Jordan Davidson 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Patrick Johnson 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
Jamal Boykin 1 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0
Lee Melchionni 15 2-3 2-2 0-1 0-0 0 4 0 0 0 0 6
Eric Boateng 3 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
TEAM 1-3 4 0
TOTALS 28-63 8-22 10-17 16-23 39 30 12 17 7 3 74
PERCENTAGES .444 .364 .588 Deadball: 2,1
Click on name for player's page.


Percentages 1st Half 2nd Half Overall
Field Goal Percentage 12-29 (.414) 16-34 (.471) 28-63 (.444)
3-Point FG Percentage 4-10 (.400) 4-12 (.333) 8-22 (.364)
Free Throw Percentage 5-8 (.625) 5-9 (.556) 10-17 (.588)
Florida State

Field Goals
3-Point FGs
Free Throws
Rebounds

Player GS Min FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OR-DR TR PF Ast TO Blk Stl Pts
Al Thornton * 36 5-15 1-2 15-16 4-2 6 2 1 5 1 1 26
Andrew Wilson * 28 2-3 1-1 1-2 0-1 1 0 2 0 0 0 6
Diego Romero * 15 2-4 1-2 0-1 2-2 4 1 0 0 0 1 5
Jason Rich * 22 0-5 0-0 3-4 3-6 9 5 0 2 0 1 3
Todd Galloway * 33 3-9 2-5 3-4 3-1 4 1 1 1 0 1 11
Alexander Johnson 26 6-16 0-1 10-13 6-7 13 2 1 1 1 0 22
Isaiah Swann 15 1-2 0-1 0-0 0-1 1 4 0 0 0 1 2
Jerel Allen 14 0-3 0-2 0-0 0-1 1 3 1 0 0 0 0
Ralph Mims 9 2-3 0-1 0-0 1-0 1 0 1 2 0 0 4
Uche Echefu 2 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
TEAM 1-1 2 0
TOTALS 21-60 5-15 32-40 20-22 42 18 7 11 2 6 79
PERCENTAGES .350 .333 .800 Deadball: 3,2


Percentages 1st Half 2nd Half Overall
Field Goal Percentage 12-37 (.324) 9-23 (.391) 21-60 (.350)
3-Point FG Percentage 3-9 (.333) 2-6 (.333) 5-15 (.333)
Free Throw Percentage 9-10 (.900) 23-30 (.767) 32-40 (.800)

Sorry I can't align that to save my butt. The point is that was the follow up game after the "improper technical" was assessed against Johnson when they played us at CIS several weeks earlier and we committed 30 PF to their 18 and shot 17 FT to their 40 (no typo)! If you think the acc office didn't have an agenda with that game, then get Stray to verify his thoughts/observations about that game. He was about 5 rows behind the Duke bench and was aghast how that game was called.

lotusland
03-12-2011, 08:20 PM
I am going to enjoy pulling for whoever is playing VT in the first round. And I mean whoever! Typically, I pull for all ACC teams to win in the NCAAT in order to enhance conference reputation, but I will not pull for VT under any circumstances. I hope the (C)Hokies lose by 20+ points!

I don't mind VT and I always pull for ACC schools except UNC. I even pull for MD. That's how I know they're not really a rival. I like having some physical teams in the conference. Rightly or wrongly the ACC is thought of as a finesse conference and "soft".

watzone
03-12-2011, 08:27 PM
BDN vids has Nolan Smith coimmenting on VT and UNC - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/03/nolan-smith-talks-the-acc-championship-game/ Several videos to follow for those interested.

sporthenry
03-12-2011, 08:28 PM
I thought this was a very efficient game but I'm still waiting for this team to go off. I think they are starting to build the momentum again that they seemed to lose the final few weeks of the regular season. It is amazing, they can grind out a 15-20 point win vs a team like this and still not look amazing. I'm still waiting for this team to put it all together. Meaning our big men (who are looking great as of late) continue to play the way they currently are, Kyle/Nolan both have good games and the 3's fall. tOSU just had one of those games and hopefully Duke will have theirs in 3 weeks.

Newton_14
03-12-2011, 08:42 PM
i don't know what people don't understand about allen throwing the ball at Dre. Was it absolutely unnecessary for Allen to throw it at dre's head? Yes. But in reality it was a smart play because dre was standing out of bounds, and there was nothing illegal about it what so ever.


Sorry, but have to disagree. While it is perfectly legal to throw the ball off an opponent to avoid going out of bounds yourself, what Allen did was quite different. Had he thrown the ball off of Andre's lower body, then that is perfectly acceptable and legal.

What Allen did, however, was clearly calculated and malicious. There is no other way to view it. He chose to throw the ball directly at Andre's face. It was not like it was a accident. It could have and should have been called a Technical Foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. The ref's choked. Had it not been a tourney game, they likely would have T'd him up.

The 5th Foul call on Andre was the worst foul call I have seen this year, maybe ever. A horrible call. I would have actually felt better if they called it a charge. At least then it is the old "block/charge" difficulty excuse. It was clearly a makeup call and a bad one.

Saratoga2
03-12-2011, 09:04 PM
Sorry, but have to disagree. While it is perfectly legal to throw the ball off an opponent to avoid going out of bounds yourself, what Allen did was quite different. Had he thrown the ball off of Andre's lower body, then that is perfectly acceptable and legal.

What Allen did, however, was clearly calculated and malicious. There is no other way to view it. He chose to throw the ball directly at Andre's face. It was not like it was a accident. It could have and should have been called a Technical Foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. The ref's choked. Had it not been a tourney game, they likely would have T'd him up.

The 5th Foul call on Andre was the worst foul call I have seen this year, maybe ever. A horrible call. I would have actually felt better if they called it a charge. At least then it is the old "block/charge" difficulty excuse. It was clearly a makeup call and a bad one.

Clearly Allen's throw off of Andre's face was malicious and the intent was to injure. I agree the foul was unsportsmanlike conduct. No other way to view it as Allen looked, paused and chucked it hard right off Andre's face.

Clearly the elbow call on Andre was totally wrong.

strawbs
03-12-2011, 09:10 PM
Sorry, but have to disagree. While it is perfectly legal to throw the ball off an opponent to avoid going out of bounds yourself, what Allen did was quite different. Had he thrown the ball off of Andre's lower body, then that is perfectly acceptable and legal.

What Allen did, however, was clearly calculated and malicious. There is no other way to view it. He chose to throw the ball directly at Andre's face. It was not like it was a accident. It could have and should have been called a Technical Foul for unsportsmanlike conduct. The ref's choked. Had it not been a tourney game, they likely would have T'd him up.

The 5th Foul call on Andre was the worst foul call I have seen this year, maybe ever. A horrible call. I would have actually felt better if they called it a charge. At least then it is the old "block/charge" difficulty excuse. It was clearly a makeup call and a bad one.

You know what, I will gladly admit that i was wrong. When i watched it live it seemed more bang-bang to me. I went back and watched the replay on espn3 (the incident happens about 18:30 in to the coverage if anyone wants to look at it) and I have no problem in saying that i was wrong. Allen had possession of the ball long enough to get his body under control and make a decision as to what he was going to do. He could have easily thrown it off of Andre anywhere he chose, and from watching the replay he chose dre's face. I think another reason that i defended Allen is that his immediate reaction was to make a grimace and throw his arms up in a "i didn't mean to" motion. After watching the replay i think he knew exactly what he was doing and was just trying to cover his butt by making the face and gesture.

All of that being said, would the refs have been able to even call a technical had they deemed the play dirty? Specifically in the rule book does it say anywhere that you can't save the possession of the ball by throwing it off an opposing players face? Because that probably should have warranted a T.

Newton_14
03-12-2011, 09:21 PM
All of that being said, would the refs have been able to even call a technical had they deemed the play dirty? Specifically in the rule book does it say anywhere that you can't save the possession of the ball by throwing it off an opposing players face? Because that probably should have warranted a T.

Thanks for taking another look and be willing to state you likely saw it wrong live. Regarding your question, I would hope the ref's have the power to make a judgement call on when a technical foul should be assessed. If the ref's believe his intent was to hit Andre in the face and possibly injure him, I would think they could legally assess the technical and/or eject him. I would have to believe they have that authority.

I thought back to Allen's freshman year when he got tossed for pushing a ref after a foul call. His antics today make me believe that after 4 years he has not learned to control his emotions. He could be a great player if he controlled his emotions better and competed 100% of the time. The guy has a ton of talent. He hurt his team badly today.

DukeUsul
03-12-2011, 09:33 PM
In case anyone was wondering:

Section 73. Unsportsmanlike Conduct
Unsportsmanlike conduct is behavior or an act that is unbecoming to a fair, ethical and honorable individual.

What Allen did isn't expressly listed as an unsporting act, though, of course, the list is clearly not exclusive:

Section 5. (Men) CLASS A Unsporting Technical Infractions
Art. 1. A player or substitute committing an unsportsmanlike act including,
but not limited to, the following:
a. Disrespectfully addressing or contacting an official or gesturing in
such a manner as to indicate resentment.
b. Using profanity or vulgarity; taunting, baiting or ridiculing another
player or bench personnel; or pointing a finger at or making obscene
gestures toward another player or bench personnel.
c. Inciting undesirable crowd reaction.
d. Contacting an opponent, while the ball is dead, in an unnecessary,
unacceptable and excessive manner.
e. Flagrantly (severe or extreme) contacting an opponent while the ball
is dead.
f. A flagrant non-contact infraction that involves extreme, sometimes
persistent, vulgar, abusive conduct when the ball is dead or live.
g. Participating after having been disqualified (non-contact flagrant
technical).
h. Leaving the playing court and going into the stands when a fight may
break out or has broken out (flagrant non-contact infraction).
i. Fighting as in Rule 4-26.

The only one of those you might be able to make a case for is (f). But the list is expressly non-exclusive, so the refs clearly have discretion.

strawbs
03-12-2011, 09:46 PM
Thanks for taking another look and be willing to state you likely saw it wrong live. Regarding your question, I would hope the ref's have the power to make a judgement call on when a technical foul should be assessed. If the ref's believe his intent was to hit Andre in the face and possibly injure him, I would think they could legally assess the technical and/or eject him. I would have to believe they have that authority.

I thought back to Allen's freshman year when he got tossed for pushing a ref after a foul call. His antics today make me believe that after 4 years he has not learned to control his emotions. He could be a great player if he controlled his emotions better and competed 100% of the time. The guy has a ton of talent. He hurt his team badly today.

Yep no problem. I was just calling it off of what i saw live. Having now seen the replay several times, i have absolutely no problem in admitting my initial thoughts were wrong. Allen should have been t'd up. No doubt it my mind.

FerryFor50
03-12-2011, 11:10 PM
Responding to Lord Ash again about "worst officiating ever," I'll see if this box score makes him change his mind, though I can't really disagree very strongly either.


3/1/2006 • Tallahassee, Fla. (Donald L. Tucker Center)
Atlantic Coast Conference Game
No. 1 Duke
74 Florida State
79

Team 1st H 2nd H Total
No. 1 Duke 33 41 74
Florida State 36 43 79
No. 1 Duke (27-2, 14-1 ACC)

Field Goals
3-Point FGs
Free Throws
Rebounds

Player GS Min FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OR-DR TR PF Ast TO Blk Stl Pts
DeMarcus Nelson G 36 4-10 2-5 0-3 1-3 4 4 1 1 0 0 10
Greg Paulus G 28 2-4 0-0 0-0 1-3 4 3 2 4 0 0 4
J.J. Redick G 39 10-28 4-14 6-6 1-1 2 2 4 4 0 0 30
Josh McRoberts F 26 1-2 0-0 0-0 1-5 6 5 3 1 3 1 2
Shelden Williams F 32 8-13 0-0 4-7 9-7 16 5 1 6 4 2 20
Marty Pocius 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sean Dockery 20 1-3 0-1 0-0 2-1 3 2 1 0 0 0 2
Jordan Davidson 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Patrick Johnson 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
Jamal Boykin 1 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0
Lee Melchionni 15 2-3 2-2 0-1 0-0 0 4 0 0 0 0 6
Eric Boateng 3 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
TEAM 1-3 4 0
TOTALS 28-63 8-22 10-17 16-23 39 30 12 17 7 3 74
PERCENTAGES .444 .364 .588 Deadball: 2,1
Click on name for player's page.


Percentages 1st Half 2nd Half Overall
Field Goal Percentage 12-29 (.414) 16-34 (.471) 28-63 (.444)
3-Point FG Percentage 4-10 (.400) 4-12 (.333) 8-22 (.364)
Free Throw Percentage 5-8 (.625) 5-9 (.556) 10-17 (.588)
Florida State

Field Goals
3-Point FGs
Free Throws
Rebounds

Player GS Min FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OR-DR TR PF Ast TO Blk Stl Pts
Al Thornton * 36 5-15 1-2 15-16 4-2 6 2 1 5 1 1 26
Andrew Wilson * 28 2-3 1-1 1-2 0-1 1 0 2 0 0 0 6
Diego Romero * 15 2-4 1-2 0-1 2-2 4 1 0 0 0 1 5
Jason Rich * 22 0-5 0-0 3-4 3-6 9 5 0 2 0 1 3
Todd Galloway * 33 3-9 2-5 3-4 3-1 4 1 1 1 0 1 11
Alexander Johnson 26 6-16 0-1 10-13 6-7 13 2 1 1 1 0 22
Isaiah Swann 15 1-2 0-1 0-0 0-1 1 4 0 0 0 1 2
Jerel Allen 14 0-3 0-2 0-0 0-1 1 3 1 0 0 0 0
Ralph Mims 9 2-3 0-1 0-0 1-0 1 0 1 2 0 0 4
Uche Echefu 2 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
TEAM 1-1 2 0
TOTALS 21-60 5-15 32-40 20-22 42 18 7 11 2 6 79
PERCENTAGES .350 .333 .800 Deadball: 3,2


Percentages 1st Half 2nd Half Overall
Field Goal Percentage 12-37 (.324) 9-23 (.391) 21-60 (.350)
3-Point FG Percentage 3-9 (.333) 2-6 (.333) 5-15 (.333)
Free Throw Percentage 9-10 (.900) 23-30 (.767) 32-40 (.800)

Sorry I can't align that to save my butt. The point is that was the follow up game after the "improper technical" was assessed against Johnson when they played us at CIS several weeks earlier and we committed 30 PF to their 18 and shot 17 FT to their 40 (no typo)! If you think the acc office didn't have an agenda with that game, then get Stray to verify his thoughts/observations about that game. He was about 5 rows behind the Duke bench and was aghast how that game was called.

You're forgetting the game against Wake where an inordinate amount of Duke players fouled out...

deezl
03-12-2011, 11:19 PM
You're forgetting the game against Wake where an inordinate amount of Duke players fouled out...

Isn't that the one where the starting 5 fouled out? Pretty sure it was all 5.

FerryFor50
03-12-2011, 11:21 PM
Isn't that the one where the starting 5 fouled out? Pretty sure it was all 5.

Pretty sure. Can't remember the year. Just the anguish...

devildeac
03-12-2011, 11:26 PM
You're forgetting the game against Wake where an inordinate amount of Duke players fouled out...

No, I hadn't forgotten that game either. Nor had I forgotten the game at Cole in about 2004 or 2005 when Duke had 4-5 guys foul out and finished the OT game with JJ, DeMarcus and 3 walk-ons. I am too tired to look it up at this time but we lost by about 7 in OT, IIRC.:mad:

sagegrouse
03-12-2011, 11:40 PM
Responding to Lord Ash again about "worst officiating ever," I'll see if this box score makes him change his mind, though I can't really disagree very strongly either.


3/1/2006 • Tallahassee, Fla. (Donald L. Tucker Center)
Atlantic Coast Conference Game

No. 1 Duke
74 Florida State
79

Team 1st H 2nd H Total
No. 1 Duke 33 41 74
Florida State 36 43 79
No. 1 Duke (27-2, 14-1 ACC)

Field Goals
3-Point FGs
Free Throws
Rebounds

Player GS Min FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OR-DR TR PF Ast TO Blk Stl Pts
DeMarcus Nelson G 36 4-10 2-5 0-3 1-3 4 4 1 1 0 0 10
Greg Paulus G 28 2-4 0-0 0-0 1-3 4 3 2 4 0 0 4
J.J. Redick G 39 10-28 4-14 6-6 1-1 2 2 4 4 0 0 30
Josh McRoberts F 26 1-2 0-0 0-0 1-5 6 5 3 1 3 1 2
Shelden Williams F 32 8-13 0-0 4-7 9-7 16 5 1 6 4 2 20
Marty Pocius 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Sean Dockery 20 1-3 0-1 0-0 2-1 3 2 1 0 0 0 2
Jordan Davidson 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0
Patrick Johnson 0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
Jamal Boykin 1 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0
Lee Melchionni 15 2-3 2-2 0-1 0-0 0 4 0 0 0 0 6
Eric Boateng 3 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 2 0 0 0 0 0
TEAM 1-3 4 0
TOTALS 28-63 8-22 10-17 16-23 39 30 12 17 7 3 74
PERCENTAGES .444 .364 .588 Deadball: 2,1
Click on name for player's page.


Percentages 1st Half 2nd Half Overall
Field Goal Percentage 12-29 (.414) 16-34 (.471) 28-63 (.444)
3-Point FG Percentage 4-10 (.400) 4-12 (.333) 8-22 (.364)
Free Throw Percentage 5-8 (.625) 5-9 (.556) 10-17 (.588)
Florida State

Field Goals
3-Point FGs
Free Throws
Rebounds

Player GS Min FG-FGA FG-FGA FT-FTA OR-DR TR PF Ast TO Blk Stl Pts
Al Thornton * 36 5-15 1-2 15-16 4-2 6 2 1 5 1 1 26
Andrew Wilson * 28 2-3 1-1 1-2 0-1 1 0 2 0 0 0 6
Diego Romero * 15 2-4 1-2 0-1 2-2 4 1 0 0 0 1 5
Jason Rich * 22 0-5 0-0 3-4 3-6 9 5 0 2 0 1 3
Todd Galloway * 33 3-9 2-5 3-4 3-1 4 1 1 1 0 1 11
Alex. Johnson 26 6-16 0-1 10-13 6-7 13 2 1 1 1 0 22
Isaiah Swann 15 1-2 0-1 0-0 0-1 1 4 0 0 0 1 2
Jerel Allen 14 0-3 0-2 0-0 0-1 1 3 1 0 0 0 0
Ralph Mims 9 2-3 0-1 0-0 1-0 1 0 1 2 0 0 4
Uche Echefu 2 0-0 0-0 0-0 0-0 0 0 0 0 0 1 0
TEAM 1-1 2 0
TOTALS 21-60 5-15 32-40 20-22 42 18 7 11 2 6 79
PERCENTAGES .350 .333 .800 Deadball: 3,2



Percentages 1st Half 2nd Half Overall
Field Goal Percentage 12-37 (.324) 9-23 (.391) 21-60 (.350)
3-Point FG Percentage 3-9 (.333) 2-6 (.333) 5-15 (.333)
Free Throw Percentage 9-10 (.900) 23-30 (.767) 32-40 (.800)

Sorry I can't align that to save my butt. The point is that was the follow up game after the "improper technical" was assessed against Johnson when they played us at CIS several weeks earlier and we committed 30 PF to their 18 and shot 17 FT to their 40 (no typo)! If you think the acc office didn't have an agenda with that game, then get Stray to verify his thoughts/observations about that game. He was about 5 rows behind the Duke bench and was aghast how that game was called.

Let's try it this way.

sagegrouse

juise
03-12-2011, 11:48 PM
Isn't that the one where the starting 5 fouled out? Pretty sure it was all 5.

Yep, it was all five (http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=280480154). Nolan had a good game, though.

ice-9
03-12-2011, 11:50 PM
What I didn't like was the concept of stall using Nolan to hold the ball, and then drive with about 7 seconds left. There were numerous times it didn't work, either through a charge or a turnover. I much prefer working the ball for a good shot opportunity and taking it when it presents itself. No 3's early in the clock but if a dunk opportunity presents itself, why not take it?

I get why Coach K does this.

First, Nolan is about 50-50 over the season on the pick-n-roll play (to my admittedly sketchy memory). Sometimes it results in an ugly charge/turnover, but overall it's a relatively high percentage play.

Second, passing the ball around carries the risk of a steal or turnover -- the kind that leads to a fast break and easy bucket. Exactly the kind of outcome you want to avoid when trying to milk the clock and lead.

For us to go away from this, the opposing team has to prove they can stop Nolan. Today, Virginia Tech could not do that.

juise
03-12-2011, 11:52 PM
No, I hadn't forgotten that game either. Nor had I forgotten the game at Cole in about 2004 or 2005 when Duke had 4-5 guys foul out and finished the OT game with JJ, DeMarcus and 3 walk-ons. I am too tired to look it up at this time but we lost by about 7 in OT, IIRC.:mad:

Yep, it was 7 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=250430120). Yuck.

Thanks to all for making this game as a whole not look so bad. Though still think that the call on Andre was one of the single ridiculous calls I've seen (mostly because they went to the monitors and turned it into a T).

devildeac
03-12-2011, 11:57 PM
Let's try it this way.

sagegrouse

That looks a whole lot better than mine except the individual Duke stats on the top don't match with the f$u team totals on the bottom (:o for me, not you). Thanks for trying to get me out of that messy post.

devildeac
03-13-2011, 12:03 AM
Yep, it was 7 (http://espn.go.com/ncb/boxscore?gameId=250430120). Yuck.

Thanks to all for making this game as a whole not look so bad. Though still think that the call on Andre was one of the single ridiculous calls I've seen (mostly because they went to the monitors and turned it into a T).

Yep. We had 5 guys foul out, they had none and we finished the game with JJ, DeMarcus, Perkins, P. Davidson and one of the big Johnsons. Plus, Daniel Ewing had a T:mad:. Shame the refs weren't listed for that one. I have some nominees...

UrinalCake
03-13-2011, 12:47 AM
I remember those two FSU games very well. The first time we had played that year there was a big foul discrepancy in Duke's favor, and everyone in the media jumped on this as another sign that we get all the calls. What really took the cake was a double technical foul that was called during a minor shoving incident even though replays showed that the FSU player didn't do anything. The referring crew was suspended, and again the media all piled on claiming this shows how they're biased against Duke and they finally got caught. What they never said was that the crew wasn't suspended because they made a bad call. They were suspended for failing to follow proper procedure by not checking the replay monitor. In may seem like a small detail, but to me there's a big difference between being suspended for making a bad call versus being suspended for failing to adhere to correct procedure.

Anyways, the next time we played was in Tallahasee and it was almost comical to watch them dribble the ball into the lane and get a whistle over and over again. Was there a media backlash about this? Of course not.

Emeritus
03-13-2011, 01:19 AM
Could someone please explain to me how someone who is inbounds can throw the ball off of someone who is standing out of bounds and retain possession???? He threw the ball out of bounds. When we play VT, Fla. State & Ga. Tech we need to have one guy on the bench like they have in Hockey...an enforcer who would be willing to foul out just to bring a little justice to the floor...

pfrduke
03-13-2011, 03:51 AM
Could someone please explain to me how someone who is inbounds can throw the ball off of someone who is standing out of bounds and retain possession????

Andre was in the game. If any player who is on the court is standing out of bounds when the ball hits him, he becomes the last person to touch it, and so it's out of bounds off of him. It would have been different if Allen had thrown it off of a guy sitting on the bench - then it's out on Allen. But because Dawkins was in the game, it's out on him if it hits him while he's standing out of bounds.

juise
03-13-2011, 03:54 AM
an enforcer who would be willing to foul out just to bring a little justice to the floor...

Any more Davidson kids out there? Chris Paul still has nightmares.

Greg_Newton
03-13-2011, 03:58 AM
I get why Coach K does this.

First, Nolan is about 50-50 over the season on the pick-n-roll play (to my admittedly sketchy memory). Sometimes it results in an ugly charge/turnover, but overall it's a relatively high percentage play.

Second, passing the ball around carries the risk of a steal or turnover -- the kind that leads to a fast break and easy bucket. Exactly the kind of outcome you want to avoid when trying to milk the clock and lead.

For us to go away from this, the opposing team has to prove they can stop Nolan. Today, Virginia Tech could not do that.

Definitely agree. I LOVE stall ball this year. It's basically our equivalent of football's victory formation.

When has it not worked? It seems like we actually tend to pull away during stall ball this year, rather than letting teams creep back almost-but-not-quite all the way. We're basically built perfectly for it - shooters on the wings, finishers down low, and the best one-on-one player we've had in years. Honestly, it might be better than our normal offense.

Saratoga2
03-13-2011, 08:09 AM
I get why Coach K does this.

First, Nolan is about 50-50 over the season on the pick-n-roll play (to my admittedly sketchy memory). Sometimes it results in an ugly charge/turnover, but overall it's a relatively high percentage play.

Second, passing the ball around carries the risk of a steal or turnover -- the kind that leads to a fast break and easy bucket. Exactly the kind of outcome you want to avoid when trying to milk the clock and lead.

For us to go away from this, the opposing team has to prove they can stop Nolan. Today, Virginia Tech could not do that.

I dislike the play since I don't think it works that often. We pull a big away from the post to screen and we spread the floor so we have little rebounding available. Nolan waits to the very end of the shot clock and as such is committed to shoot. Not much time to do anything else. Nolan can go around the screen either way, but chooses the right most of the time. The opponent guard can follow Nolan around the screen and help defense can come from inside, since we have no one near the basket. If you watch the end of game, we gave the ball away three times in a row. Nolan has a lot of ability, but his ball handling is not his greatest strength and he doesn't let go of the ball once committed and couldn't anyway since there is no time left to do so.

The same kind of stall lost the game against UNC for both Miami and Clemson. They wound up losing their aggressiveness and stopped playing as a team on offense. They played right into UNC's hands and both lost big leads late.

Reddevil
03-13-2011, 08:19 AM
Could someone please explain to me how someone who is inbounds can throw the ball off of someone who is standing out of bounds and retain possession???? He threw the ball out of bounds. When we play VT, Fla. State & Ga. Tech we need to have one guy on the bench like they have in Hockey...an enforcer who would be willing to foul out just to bring a little justice to the floor...


Andre was in the game. If any player who is on the court is standing out of bounds when the ball hits him, he becomes the last person to touch it, and so it's out of bounds off of him. It would have been different if Allen had thrown it off of a guy sitting on the bench - then it's out on Allen. But because Dawkins was in the game, it's out on him if it hits him while he's standing out of bounds.

If you're playing tennis and both you and your opponent are at the net and you have an easy put away, you hit it at his feet. If you nail him in his head is it legal - yes. Is it your point - yes, but it is a punk move. Allen is a punk.

DukeUsul
03-13-2011, 01:48 PM
Could someone please explain to me how someone who is inbounds can throw the ball off of someone who is standing out of bounds and retain possession???? He threw the ball out of bounds. When we play VT, Fla. State & Ga. Tech we need to have one guy on the bench like they have in Hockey...an enforcer who would be willing to foul out just to bring a little justice to the floor...
Here's the rule:


Art. 2. When the ball is out of bounds because of touching or being touched
by a player who is on or outside a boundary, such player shall have caused
the ball to go out of bounds.

The ball was out of bounds because it touched Andre, who was outside the boundary. Therefore, Andre caused the ball to go out of bounds.

Emeritus
03-13-2011, 07:36 PM
Got it guys. Thanks...I learn something every time I come to this board. GO DUKE!!