MBB: UNC 81, Duke 67 Post-Game Thread

[pfrduke]

Post your thoughts here. And when you do, please review the posting guidelines - we had to issue a lot of infractions in the in-game thread. As a reminder, constructive criticism is welcome, but blatant bashing of the team/players/coaches is not.

[BlueDGal]

stormin' the court tarholes? really?

[moonpie23]

and the tarholes storm the court...

[turnandburn55]

Just for Karma's sake, I need someone to post an "It's Over" thread ;)

Because, as "Yo Daddy" once famously said... I have a feeling it still isn't. Not by a long shot...

[barjwr]

Right now, I'd give LD II a thousand dollars to come back to school

[Devilsfan]

We just gave away the ACC Championship. I really don't believe in sharing the weath so I'm pissed.

[rotogod00]

just couldn't rebound with them and their athleticism advantage is really noticeable

[dcdrumsinc]

The better team won tonight. If not the better, the more balanced team (inside and outside) won tonight.

[KShip21]

storm the court? really?

Anyway, can we vote to just delete this thread. We all watched the game. No need to make us more miserable than we already feel right now. It was awful and something we would all probably like to stop thinking about. ACC Tourney in 6 days. Next Play...

[ice-9]

I agree we shouldn't be bashing our own players (from the in game thread) - c'mon, we ARE better than that.

We do need Singler to get out of his long range shooting funk. Without it, and especially since he doesn't go much inside against taller teams, we're a limited team offensively. We're simply not the same without the 2009-2010 version of Singler.

The bigger problem though was the defense against UNC. UNC did some really clever things to take advantage of our man-to-man help defense to get the shot they wanted. We should have tried a zone even if to just throw off UNC. I hate to say this, but Roy out-coached us this time.

Just how good is this Duke team? We've lost all of our toughest road games - Florida St, St Johns, Virginia Tech and UNC. The good news is that the NCAA tournament is played on a neutral site, but the bad news is that while these are all NCAA tournament teams, none are likely to make it past the first weekend except UNC.

I hope we get our revenge in the ACC tournament but we need to man up to do it.

[rotogod00]

We just gave away the ACC Championship.

or maybe (unfortunately), they're just better than us right now

[Lulu]

I don't know how we got here, but we look like a team in desperate, desperate need of some coaching. Seems completely crazy, but that's how it looks.

[eddiehaskell]

On a positive note, Nolan has a POTY game with 30 pts. He is literally a one man wrecking crew with what looks to be a bunch of average players around him.

[kaufmjo]

Really played very hard, I'm so proud of our guys. I liked Kelly's persistance to keep on shooting through an off night. We will need that determination to go deep in the tourney.

Let's go Duke on to the ACC tourney!!

[kmspeaks]

Though I'm sure these will be discussed ad nauseum in here I don't want to hear about 3 point shots, rebounding, or Kyle's shooting. You only need one word to describe why Duke lost this game...Defense. It just wasn't very good tonight.

Even still, the sky is not falling and the world is not over. This is still a very good team that has as good a chance as anybody to win the ACC and NCAA tournaments. We will go as far as our defense takes us. I just hate losing to those dang tar holes!!! :mad:

[BlueThru&Thru]

stormin' the court tarholes? really?

Really -ACC Regular Season Champs - Who'da thunk it last fall.:cool:

[Bob Green]

We lost. That sucks. Next play.

[DMV2434]

i really feel for kyle. out of nowhere his offensive game has absolutely disappeared and he has become a liability for this team. if a duke team is only going to have one player who can knock down a three, they wont get very far.

heres hoping Singler remembers how to be an asset and Duke as a team figures out how to play a full 40 minutes of basketball.

I don't see Kyle going out like this. Hopefully he will get his legs back for the ACCT and will be playing like Kyle Singler when it matters most.

[CLW]

Wow shocked UNC fans stormed the court. I was just telling a friend the other day the only good thing about a UNC loss was at least the fans act like they've won a game before.

Singler is in a FUNK. I'm not sure if its confidence, pressing or something mechanical but we need the KS of old in a bad way as Nolan just cannot do it all by himself.

Curry played well and right now he has to be our #2 option on offense. He was the ONLY player to even hit a 3 tonight.

Our bigs were just OWNED by Zeller/Henson. They got down the floor quicker, got on the boards harder and played better defense.

I'm afraid w/o Kyrie and/or a return of the Singler of old we are in big trouble. We just have ZERO post presence and with that being the case we need a "Big 3" on the perimeter knocking down shots to have a shot of making another deep run.

[taiw93]

Seth and Nolan carried this team; Nolan looks like the NPOY to me. Other than that, I really have nothing good to say about our effort tonight, so I'm just going to stop there instead of venting. Embarrassing.

Hope we have the chance to avenge this in the ACC tourney.

[terrih]

Nolan is just amazing (I am going to focus on a real positive). He had 30 points on 12 of 13 from the line and 9 of 19 from the floor (according to ESPN). Just fantastic and gave us a fighting chance until late in the game.

[Lord Ash]

I am stunned at how little this team has grown and progressed this year. Everyone has seen it over the last few months... listless ACC games against what SHOULD be overmatched teams, and yet somehow they were all these flat, close games where the other team stays in it, and it is only because of Nolan that we win. Ryan, Dre, Kyle, Miles, and Mason have all either not made any progress, or have actually REGRESSED as the year has gone by, and I cannot account for it.

Then, seeing it put up against Carolina, with Barnes having gone through a tough stretch and emerged as a better player than the senior small forward up the road... Marshall as a freshman has been composed and gotten better and better as he got more time... Henson has made HUGE progress from last year, and has even made progress DURING this year... Zeller has gotten markedly better... heck, even the UNC guards have really stepped up their game.

I cannot recall seeing such a frustrating Duke team in a long time.

[CameronDuke]

It's pretty simple. When we can't hit 3s consistently, we lose. When we are hot from behind the 3 point line, we usually win. There was a stretch in the 2nd half of about 7 minutes or so that we didn't hit a field goal and that was pretty much the end of the game for us. Mason can not foul out with out scoring and Singler has to have a better game shooting and scoring for us to be competitive. UNC played well, particularly Kendall Marshall who zipped many nice passes around. Our help defense on dribble penetration was atrocious, but I think that is something we can count on improving in the next week. If we can improve our shooting and get hot in March, we can play with anyone.

On to Greensboro. I would love to play UNC again for the official ACC Championship.

[JohnGalt]

Nantz and Kellogg were terrible.

Thank goodness for the SAP button. Spanish was better.

[g-money]

I'm really hoping we meet the Holes again in the ACC tournament. One of the hallmarks of a champion (which we may not ultimately be, but IMO there's still plenty of time to right the ship) is exacting revenge after an embarrassing loss.

We're better than we played tonight and they played out of their a--. Lets run it back!!!!

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Really played very hard, I'm so proud of our guys. I liked Kelly's persistance to keep on shooting through an off night. We will need that determination to go deep in the tourney.

Let's go Duke on to the ACC tourney!!

are you kidding? We got outhustled, outrebounded, outsmarted all night.

[pfrduke]

Wow shocked UNC fans stormed the court. I was just telling a friend the other day the only good thing about a UNC loss was at least the fans act like they've won a game before.

If there's any silver lining to our losses this season, it's that each of the team's fans thought it was such a big deal that they stormed the court. 4 losses, 4 courts stormings.

[Channing]

I don't know how we got here, but we look like a team in desperate, desperate need of some coaching. Seems completely crazy, but that's how it looks.

Unfortunately I thought the same thing. We haven't looked like a well coached team in a few weeks. Our offense continues to go stagnant for long stretches and our Defense has the same old weaknesses


Really played very hard, I'm so proud of our guys. I liked Kelly's persistance to keep on shooting through an off night. We will need that determination to go deep in the tourney.

Let's go Duke on to the ACC tourney!!

Not sure proud is the term I'd use. outside of a two game stretch this year Kelly's three point shooting has not been good all year. maybe he needs to stop shooting threes altogether...

[Fuqua's Finest]

Hate to say it, but Chapel Hill at this point in the season is the better team. Luckily, the ACC Regular Season Championship means nothing more than a checkpoint in a marathon. They won the battle, but the war continues. Hopefully Kyrie comes back and saves us or Kyle finds his game again. Without either we're nothing more than a Sweet 16 team. I bleed Duke blue but I can call a spade a spade. We live to play another game on Friday. A week's rest should do us plenty well.

And for the record, Chapel Hill wanted the game more. The loose balls won the game for them. Cant remember Duke getting dominated on so many loose ball opportunities.

[moonpie23]

my phone is blowing up with "live by the 3, die by the 3"...

sucks...

[BlueDGal]

we had another half where we didn't play good defense and started 0-5 on 3pters.....I don't understand why we do that......it cost us the game.

[cspan37421]

If you read between the lines (it's not hard), Kyrie is not coming back. We need to do the rest of this with the guys we have in uniform.

Let's just hope that we have teachable guys who will learn from their breakdowns in defense. Perhaps UNC is just faster down the floor and they exploited that advantage. Do we credit their 3pt shooting defense or were we just off with it having nothing to do with their defense? I know for Ryan, it was that he was just off. No hands were in his face most of his shots.

For whatever reason, it does not appear that Andre will get much burn. Surprising that Tyler didn't get much, unless - is it UNC's size? Nolan and Kyle never gave up, but Kyle just didn't have it going. I hope he can find his outside shot. Hate to see him going out throwing up bricks and getting the occasional 10 footer and layup.

Hard to believe Mason couldn't score. And I would have preferred 5 fouls from him being more the "not in my house" kind, rather than getting leaned into, reaching for a rebound (never saw what he did?)

Anyway, hats off to UNC, esp. Zeller as an academic all america(n) and good player.

Next play. Who do we have?

[OZ]

You are not going to beat many GOOD teams with the scoring basically limited to two players.

I am not sure why Curry didn't take a few more shots in the second half.

Kyle, you are a senior and one of our two really good players... with as much as was on the line tonight, you simply have to bring more than that.

[Kfanarmy]

Though I'm sure these will be discussed ad nauseum in here I don't want to hear about 3 point shots, rebounding, or Kyle's shooting. You only need one word to describe why Duke lost this game...Defense. It just wasn't very good tonight.:mad:

Defense in the first half, but wow...I think they hit two buckets in the last 10 minutes. Still, I'm not sure Carolina wasn't trying to coast a bit by then. Wow, no one could hit the inside of the gym with the ball there for an eternity. Bigs need to be more agressive...on a night like this, I'm not sure what they think they are supposed to do on the offensive end.

[grossbus]

was the last time we got off to a good start?

when was the last time we had more than two players show up?

[AlaskanAssassin]

just glad it wasn't 82-50

[Oriole Way]

I just hope K learns something from this game and makes some adjustments.

Kelly is strictly a matchups play... he shouldn't start against athletic, talented teams. All our bigs need to stop hedging on every play. Singler needs to work more inside. The reliance on 3's really needs to be toned down, especially by Singer. Curry needs to be a more focal part of the offense, and Singler should sacrifice some perimeter jumpers to accommodate that.

This was one of K's worst coaching jobs in a long time. His insistence on using Kelly and going back to him time and time again was baffling. He made little to no adjustments for the kind of team UNC is, especially the constant hedging on the perimeter by our plodding big men. He seems to be indifferent towards the fact that Singler's shot selection is a huge liability for our offense. It's almost as if K is willing to live the results of his team playing the exact same style of man-to-man defense no matter how ineffective that may be against certain opponents.

That said, I think this team has the pieces to win the ACC tournament and make a deep run in the NCAA's. K needs to start acknowledging the severe deficiencies of his offensive and defensive approaches, as well as some of the key players who are struggling with how they play in the context of those offensive and defensive systems.

[Chris Randolph]

At least we are on the good side of the bubble, the #1 or #2 seed bubble haha....

It comes down to making shots, plain and simple. Whether you are open or contested, gotta make shots. We (not just Kyle) missed a lot of good looks, they didn't. Pretty simple

And to those questioning coach K, really? In the last year he has won a national title, world title, completely changed the style of play from a championship season, changed it again during the year when the team's best player went down and we are still in contention for a #1 seed. Haha at you haters

[Les Grossman]

Unfortunately, 2 on 5 rarely works.
Lasting image of the game for me was the look on Dre's face as he shot those 3 FTs.
Oy

[KShip21]

was the last time we got off to a good start?

when was the last time we had more than two players show up?

@MD is the closest we came to playing a solid 40 minutes since ACC play started

[cspan37421]

Right now, I'd give LD II a thousand dollars to come back to school

Post of the night!

But don't make him ineligible. I'd give UNC's Annual Fund $2000 to take him back, as long as he was a starter.

[karmacoma]

The better team won tonight. If not the better, the more balanced team (inside and outside) won tonight.

In light of the rise of Marshall and the fall of Singler, I have no doubt that the Heels are the better team at this point. Such great balance. Given all the adversity they've overcome, their regular season title is nothing short of remarkable, as much as it pains me to say it. Kudos to them. Next play. After Singler gets some rest.

[devildownunder]

Worst thing about this game was not getting to see the end of it. I know we lost but living abroad and not being able to see all the games makes you appreciate the ones you do get that much more. Really was a pain when I lost 1 stream, found another, then lost that one, too. Oh well.

As for the game itself, well, we got 50 points from 2 guys and a grand total of 17 from everyone else. You won't beat a top-10 team that way and UNC is playing on that level right now. From what I did get to see, I was very, very disappointed in our lack of movement on offense, our lack of hustle on D in the first half and our lack of intensity in the half court in the first half. I think we picked up the defensive intensity after the break but we could just never get anybody but Seth and Nolan in an offensive rhythm. I know a bunch of people will put all of the blame for that on Singler but, frankly, he had his hands full today. Guys like Ryan and Mason and Andre need to be able to pick up the slack or we'll have problems again next Sunday and anywhere past the 2nd round of the NCAA.

[rotogod00]

At least we are on the good side of the bubble, the #1 or #2 seed bubble haha....

It comes down to making shots, plain and simple. Whether you are open or contested, gotta make shots. We (not just Kyle) missed a lot of good looks, they didn't. Pretty simple

And to those questioning coach K, really? In the last year he has won a national title, world title, completely changed the style of play from a championship season, changed it again during the year when the team's best player went down and we are still in contention for a #1 seed. Haha at you haters

think the #1 bubble has popped, even if we win the ACCT. it's a #2

[Scorp4me]

My issue isn't with taking so many 3's, it's with continuing to take 3's when it's obvious it isn't working. Look sometimes it's just not falling. I found myself actually pulling for Duke to not pull this one off. Why? Cause I didn't want them to think they could continue to do what they've been doing and win it. They need to realize they have to adjust if they're going to advance. Imagine if Curry had been as off as the rest of the team. The entire rest of the team didn't hit a single 3.

I'm not an expert so I'd be interested to hear what adjustments anyone feels K made at half time. But from what I saw it looks like after the first few minutes of driving they went right back to their perimeter oriented game. I'm afraid nothing more than keep shooting was said.

Why doesn't Kyle Single drive to the hoop? When he does good things happen.

Why is Kelly still shooting? For God's sake how long does it take to realize you're off and attempt to contribute in other ways.

The refs were terrible, but in no way affected the outcome of this game.

How many steps is Marshall allowed to take?

And not only did Duke shoot miserable but Carolina shot lights out. And not just inside, circus shots. Our defense didn't help inside, but that didn't help from the perimeter.

On the plus side Miles and Curry played great. While we were looking for our 3rd scorer we lost our 2nd one. That being said I don't think Duke or Carolina are all that good. I think the weak ACC has made both of us look better than we are. Not going to be pretty from here on out I'm afraid.

[kong123]

I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

[TallMan]

It's actually quite simple. Carolina is not as bad as everyone has made them out to be. And we are not as good as everyone has made us out to be. This is something that Coach K has said about this Duke team all season.

[cspan37421]

I don't know how we got here, but we look like a team in desperate, desperate need of some coaching. Seems completely crazy, but that's how it looks.

That does seem crazy. This is the same staff that too a no-superstar team to the title last year. Sometimes you just don't have the horses.

[jipops]

We lost to a more balanced and talented team. The only thing that really gets me down about that is that it happens to be UNC

K once again did a terrific job adjusting in the 2nd half as UNC's offensive production wasn't nearly what it was in the 2nd. But Duke's point-guardless struggling offense didn't give them much of chance to get back in it. The talent advantage exists in almost every component of the game for UNC tonight.

We will be ACC Champs - 2011. I predicted we would lose tonight, but I predict we will be ACC champs as well.

[pfrduke]

think the #1 bubble has popped, even if we win the ACCT. it's a #2

Really?? If we win the ACCT, who else (besides Kansas, OSU, and Pitt) would be more deserving?

[rotogod00]

I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

agreed. how can you not

[Gthoma2a]

This does hurt us in many ways. We have lost the image of superiority (perhaps it was inflated), so it will hurt us in recruiting, and we are likely to look very average in the tournaments. It isn't that we weren't good, it is that we have found a way to become bad. We lost Kyrie and we NEVER moved into a direction of finding an identity after that. We won games and played pretty well for a long time, but we never established anything about who we were. Are we a team that can shoot the lights out? Sometimes early in the season. are we a team that has an inside game? One in every 5-7 games. Are we a team that can penetrate? Not since Kyrie went to the bench. Are we a team that plays amazing defense? Less lately. and are we a team that will wear you out by using our bench? No.

I remember the headlines at the start of the season, "Who can challenge Duke?" "Who will finish behind Duke in the ACC?" "Duke is scary good." "Will K break the record this year?" "Can Duke go undefeated?". Truly a shame to see what became of the season that two champions came back. I thank them so much and my heart breaks that they are having to deal with this season.

[Greg_Newton]

The good news - if we beat UNC in the ACCT, we will finish with the same overall ACC record as them and a 2-1 tiebreaker, along as the official ACC champions. So there's still a chance Duke > UNC overall this season, just keep that in mind.

Singler's obviously in a slump, but he's always been a limited player offensively. The story of this game was our big guys. I believe the two phantom calls on Mason really changed the tone of the game - he's a guy we need to lead physically in a game like this, and it completely took him out of the game. And Ryan Kelly's 0-6 threes - wide open three - were the different for most of the game.

Bottom line is UNC is just looking really good, unfortunately. Hopefully it means several of ZBH will leave after the year.

[CharlestonDevil]

I've never been more proud to be a Duke fan.

I love our program. I love our boys. K is the greatest ever.

When I wake up tomorrow I will not be a fairweather tarheel. I'll be a reigning national champion.

9F. LONG LIVE THE GREATEST BASKETBALL PROGRAM TO EVER EXIST.

[Chicken Little]

Just checking in.

Next play.

[Trinity'10]

I really wasn't as discouraged by the loss as a lot of you seem to have been.

Frustrating loss, as it always is against the heels, but they deserved it.

That said, I thought we had our opportunities and didn't capitalize, sometimes it's just one of those days. Yes they got a lot of points in the paint, and some transition buckets, but that comes with the territory. I actually thought we did a good job limiting Zeller's touches in the half court. That said, their offensive boards and put backs killed us. When a team is playing that efficiently, you can't give them extra opportunities.

Nolan played another sublime offensive game. Kyle did a lot of the little things, though his offense wasn't there and he just looked TIRED. Nice to see that Seth really loves being in the big games, it will serve the team well in the future.

Can't win em all. Carolina has turned into a contender, but I still think we are the better team. When you play a top level team you have to execute though, and we weren't able to.

On to the ACC Tourney, lets go win the REAL ACC TITLE (that Huck doesn't care for anyway).

Also, storming the floor? Really? That made me laugh out loud.

[hurleyfor3]

If there's any silver lining to our losses this season, it's that each of the team's fans thought it was such a big deal that they stormed the court. 4 losses, 4 courts stormings.

They stormed the court at Madison Square Garden? Didn't watch that one.

Personally, I had priced this loss in. This isn't the end, but I'm not very optimistic. I'm not sure what we do to improve.

[rotogod00]

Really?? If we win the ACCT, who else (besides Kansas, OSU, and Pitt) would be more deserving?

honestly, hate to say it, but if carolina wins out, beating us for a 2nd time, they deserve a spot on the top line.

[AlaskanAssassin]

I think Seth Davis mentioned, that even if Duke lost this match, they would still be considered as a #1

[karmacoma]

was the last time we got off to a good start?

The State game. A long, long time ago.

[Buckeye Devil]

Seth hits 6 3's and the rest of the team has none, no interior game, porous defense, enough said. When Duke shoots that many 3's during the game and shoots around 20% behind the arc they are not going to beat any quality teams. UNC is playing the way you want to be playing heading towards tournament time and looks like the better team right now. Duke-not so much. The game gave me a bad feeling from the get go.

[pfrduke]

The good news - if we beat UNC in the ACCT, we will finish with the same overall ACC record as them and a 2-1 tiebreaker, along as the official ACC champions. So there's still a chance Duke > UNC overall this season, just keep that in mind.

Singler's obviously in a slump, but he's always been a limited player offensively. The story of this game was our big guys. I believe the two phantom calls on Mason really changed the tone of the game - he's a guy we need to lead physically in a game like this, and it completely took him out of the game. And Ryan Kelly's 0-6 threes - wide open three - were the different for most of the game.

Bottom line is UNC is just looking really good, unfortunately. Hopefully it means several of ZBH will leave after the year.

That's a really silly thing to say. Singler can score in a variety of ways - from outside, to down in the post. He's struggled in the last half of this season - there's no dispute about that. But calling a guy with over 2000 points on his career "limited" offensively is ridiculous.

[KShip21]

then we only hit 7 shots in the second half. We need to put 40 good minutes together badly, and quickly

[kaufmjo]

are you kidding? We got outhustled, outrebounded, outsmarted all night.

But we kept on trying, that's all that really matters at the end of the day -not abandoning our principles of the three even in the face of adversity. Total class, unlikely UNC would would go and change their gameplan if it wasnt working.

[KShip21]

was the last time we got off to a good start?

The State game. A long, long time ago.

then we only hit 7 shots in the second half. We need to put 40 good minutes together badly, and quickly

[Oriole Way]

I think Seth Davis mentioned, that even if Duke lost this match, they would still be considered as a #1

I think if we beat UNC in the ACC finals, we should certainly be a #1. If we lose any time before, we deserve a 2 seed. I would love to be Pitt's 2 seed.

[Chris Randolph]

think the #1 bubble has popped, even if we win the ACCT. it's a #2

Negative ghost rider. BYU had a BAD loss as did Purdue today. TX bout to get beat by Baylor. Pitt or Notre Dame has to go through the Big East gauntlet. I like our chances IF we win ACCT

[jipops]

I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

I guess I'm in the extreme minority that does not find this result the least bit surprising. UNC once again has a talent advantage, certainly physically. I wouldn't call it a turnaround, just an in-flux and return of some serious top-flight talent. Every coach would love UNC's NBA front court and excellent point guard. I don't believe UNC to be some great team this year, that will be next year. But they are very good and as I stated 3 weeks ago. they are the best team in the ACC.

[karmacoma]

I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

You have every right to be proud of 'em. It's been a remarkable turnaround. They've played like one of the top teams nationally over the past 5 weeks.

[pfrduke]

honestly, hate to say it, but if carolina wins out, beating us for a 2nd time, they deserve a spot on the top line.

Fine, but you originally said "even if we win the ACCT, it's a #2." I think that's wrong. If Carolina wins out, obviously we won't have won the ACCT. But if we do - and we're still one of 2 favorites, if not the favorite - my point stands: Kansas, OSU, Pitt, and Duke would be the 4 teams with the best resumes, and most deserving of #1 seeds.

[Ping Lin]

It seems to me the reason Nolan is so important to the team is that his shots (and the shots he generates from passing off the drive) are the only easy shots taken by the team... Ryan's threes are a bit of a crapshoot, Kyle's drives and jumpshots appear labored and fatigued; and Mason's hook shots...well, let's be fair and call them low-percentage shots. And at the moment the team is desperately in need of easy shots.

That said, there's still plenty of time to right the ship, and I'm not prepared to jump it yet. It just simply isn't going to be Duke's night when Harrison Barnes hits 20-foot fadeaways. However, it's difficult to see this team being more than 16 material without a major shakeup in the lineup. Something like Mason, Kyle, Seth, Nolan, and Tyler starting the first game of the ACC tournament.

[Gthoma2a]

My issue isn't with taking so many 3's, it's with continuing to take 3's when it's obvious it isn't working. Look sometimes it's just not falling. I found myself actually pulling for Duke to not pull this one off. Why? Cause I didn't want them to think they could continue to do what they've been doing and win it. They need to realize they have to adjust if they're going to advance. Imagine if Curry had been as off as the rest of the team. The entire rest of the team didn't hit a single 3.

I'm not an expert so I'd be interested to hear what adjustments anyone feels K made at half time. But from what I saw it looks like after the first few minutes of driving they went right back to their perimeter oriented game. I'm afraid nothing more than keep shooting was said.

Why doesn't Kyle Single drive to the hoop? When he does good things happen.

Why is Kelly still shooting? For God's sake how long does it take to realize you're off and attempt to contribute in other ways.

The refs were terrible, but in no way affected the outcome of this game.

How many steps is Marshall allowed to take?

And not only did Duke shoot miserable but Carolina shot lights out. And not just inside, circus shots. Our defense didn't help inside, but that didn't help from the perimeter.

On the plus side Miles and Curry played great. While we were looking for our 3rd scorer we lost our 2nd one. That being said I don't think Duke or Carolina are all that good. I think the weak ACC has made both of us look better than we are. Not going to be pretty from here on out I'm afraid.

I am not sure we have anything else available to us. We lost the Va Tech game the same way. We lost the Florida State game this way. We lost the St. Johns game several ways, but this was one of them. We don't have the athleticism without it the way it is. I hate it that I saw vulnerability from Andre for the first time in this game. Usually, he performs in big games, but missing three in a row from the line is something that shows we found a moment that was too big. He should recover because he didn't cost us the game, but just showed that even the best at something can falter under too much pressure.

[hurleyfor3]

I think if we beat UNC in the ACC finals, we should certainly be a #1. If we lose any time before, we deserve a 2 seed. I would love to be Pitt's 2 seed.

With Texas or Byu as the 3.

[HDB]

I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

Gimme a break. UNC has how many mcdonald's all Americans? And what were they ranked pre-season? I can do without the "we shocked the world" BS.

[weezie]

I got nothin'. Not a darned thing.

Looks like the daffodils are sprouting. That's it.

[CLW]

If there's any silver lining to our losses this season, it's that each of the team's fans thought it was such a big deal that they stormed the court. 4 losses, 4 courts stormings.

LOL my AIM just got lit up with the usual trash talk. I then asked them when was the last time you lost on the road and your opponent's fan base stormed the court like a bunch of idiots.


I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

You should. Your [censored] North Carolina. One of the all-time great college programs and your fans stormed the court like they just won the NCAA title against a collection of NBA all-stars.

I know if the situation were exactly reversed I would be EMBARRASSED that our fans were dumb enough to not act like they've been there before.

[rotogod00]

Fine, but you originally said "even if we win the ACCT, it's a #2." I think that's wrong. If Carolina wins out, obviously we won't have won the ACCT. But if we do - and we're still one of 2 favorites, if not the favorite - my point stands: Kansas, OSU, Pitt, and Duke would be the 4 teams with the best resumes, and most deserving of #1 seeds.

maybe, you might be right that no other team would deserve it. down ACC this year could haunt us, though

[pfrduke]

They stormed the court at Madison Square Garden? Didn't watch that one.

I'm pretty sure they did, although I've sort of blocked out the end of that game - can anyone else confirm?

[Channing]

I guess I'm in the extreme minority that does not find this result the least bit surprising. UNC once again has a talent advantage, certainly physically. I wouldn't call it a turnaround, just an in-flux and return of some serious top-flight talent. Every coach would love UNC's NBA front court and excellent point guard. I don't believe UNC to be some great team this year, that will be next year. But they are very good and as I stated 3 weeks ago. they are the best team in the ACC.

I agree. I think the weakness of the ACC this year masked our team, and I truly believe that we would have around 10 losses or so this season if we played in the big east.

i WAS encouraged by Miles' play today. He gave us some really good minutes and even hit that 10 footer of his.

[Greg_Newton]

That's a really silly thing to say. Singler can score in a variety of ways - from outside, to down in the post. He's struggled in the last half of this season - there's no dispute about that. But calling a guy with over 2000 points on his career "limited" offensively is ridiculous.

Not really. He's been a great all-around player, and yes, can hit jump shots in various ways from various spots. But he's never been a guy that can create, and has trouble scoring reliable when his shot is off.

That wasn't just a knee-jerk post from me... here's a more thorough explanation of my reasoning from a few weeks ago: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?24275-Nolan-Smith-Jersey-Retirement&p=476343#post476343

[hurleyfor3]

I got nothin'. Not a darned thing.

Looks like the daffodils are sprouting. That's it.

They're quite in bloom up in the NC mountains. Crocuses too.

[KShip21]

Gimme a break. UNC has how many mcdonald's all Americans? And what were they ranked pre-season? I can do without the "we shocked the world" BS.

and if it wasn't for an injury (yep, playing that card right now) your "what a turnaround" would have been a second place finish.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

Gosh, I'd hate to see what your gloating looks like! I am not here to gloat. Don't need to because my team just kicked your team's butt despite facing unparalleled adversity. Do you just live on this board? What was your post if not gloating?

[Gthoma2a]

I guess I'm in the extreme minority that does not find this result the least bit surprising. UNC once again has a talent advantage, certainly physically. I wouldn't call it a turnaround, just an in-flux and return of some serious top-flight talent. Every coach would love UNC's NBA front court and excellent point guard. I don't believe UNC to be some great team this year, that will be next year. But they are very good and as I stated 3 weeks ago. they are the best team in the ACC.

None of us find it surprising. We have been moving down and they have been moving up. We had all of the momentum building last year and it carried into this year, but it slowly went away during the season. We are at our lowest at the most crucial moment, and that spells trouble, but I think we have all seen it coming. We just refused to admit that out of pride, because no matter how bad the situation is, we have to/will continue to cheer our team.

[CLW]

I'm pretty sure they did, although I've sort of blocked out the end of that game - can anyone else confirm?

I don't have the video but I recall a court storming. Then again I just presume a court storming now with every L. I USED to exclude UNC from that equation but their fans have proven to be no better than any other school.

[kong123]

I know if the situation were exactly reversed I would be EMBARRASSED that our fans were dumb enough to not act like they've been there before.

I am so embarrassed.

[dukestheheat]

I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

....Carolina completely outplayed us tonight and deserved to win it. We had no answer for Marshall, who was great tonight. I am very disappointed in this loss but I think we can bounce back and be more competitive; we just didn't seem to really compete tonight nearly as well as we are capable.

dth.

[NYC Duke Fan]

I am probably the third or fourth poster to say this but right now UNC is a better team than Duke. We cannot match up well with their inside game and while it hurts to admit it, if everyone comes back next year, and that includes Irving, they will be better than us again next year.

We will not be able to match up with Zeller, Henson, Barnes and McAdoo. The 3 Plumlees and Kelly just do not compare to them. We will have a better back court but their's will not be shabby.

I think that when Irving went down, it evened the playing field immensely. I honestly believe that with him we were in a good spot to repeat. As of now, I cannot see us repeating...I cannot see us as a Final4 or even an Elite 8 team

Roy Williams has done a much better job with his team this year than Coach K has.

[Delaware]

Curry... 6-11
Rest of team = 0-17, inlcuding 0-5 for both Kyle and Nolan and 0 for 6 from Kelly

First half starts are really troubling

Defense in 2nd half held them to 30 points, but still did not "look" great

Gotta believe something is wrong with Singler physically or with his confidence ... we need #12 to be great to go to elite 8 or final 4

Miles had a nice game.... we need him to keep it going

Curry is a UNC killer... he seems to love to give it to the heels... we needed to find him more

Dawkins also looks like he has ZERO confidence

Kelly looked like he was overmatched in this game on both ends of the court... he lost Zeller and Henson so many times I cant count them

We did not try and go "Orange" at all in the first half and I have no reason why we wouldn't... they were killing us and we needed to change them up

[edensquad]

Lots of folks view Kyrie returning as the answered prayer; I'll take Kyle Singler returning.... the "real" Kyle who can knock down open shots.

Without that, Duke is simply not very special. Pretty evident tonight. With Kyle making shots, Duke can beat anyone on a given night, with or without Kyrie, IMHO.

[Atldukie79]

3pt. shooting:
How do you explain the 3 point shooting?
Seth ( 6-11) was amazing. but the rest of the team was 0-16.
If those stats are 5 - 16 ( a modest success rate), its a different outcome.

Singler:
It seems as if Singler has tried to create his own shots more this year rather than let the game come to him. Maybe he is worn down. Maybe both.

In any event, losing to UNC on the last regular season game does not spell doom...
I wouldn't mind if we repeat the 1991 result.

[HB TAYLOR]

It's pretty simple. When we can't hit 3s consistently, we lose. When we are hot from behind the 3 point line, we usually win. There was a stretch in the 2nd half of about 7 minutes or so that we didn't hit a field goal and that was pretty much the end of the game for us. Mason can not foul out with out scoring and Singler has to have a better game shooting and scoring for us to be competitive. UNC played well, particularly Kendall Marshall who zipped many nice passes around. Our help defense on dribble penetration was atrocious, but I think that is something we can count on improving in the next week. If we can improve our shooting and get hot in March, we can play with anyone.

On to Greensboro. I would love to play UNC again for the official ACC Championship.

Exactly, very simple! The old proverb "live by the 3, die by the 3" was executed to perfection tonight. We are a jump shooting team and when we dont make those shots, we dont win....very simple! Our only other option is, and thank the good lord for him, Nolan, with his dribble drive.

[Saratoga2]

Now we are one and one with Carolina and maybe we will get a chance for the tie breaker depending on our tournament.

Offense:

There weren't a lot of positives. Nolan did have an excellent game. At the end of the game he was forced by circumstances to take quick shots which didn't fall, but in the majority of the game, UNC couldn't handle him.

While parts of Kyles game were good as usual, his 3 point shooting remains in a major slump. Kelly is also in a major shooting slump and Nolan wasn't hitting 3's either.

Seth did shoot quite well, but perhaps tired towards the end. His shots were close but not going down.

We got very little inside and really didn't expect our bigs to add much inside. Zero from Mason and maybe 2 from Ryan. Miles was an unlikely scorer but he may have gotten 4.

What a shame to have Andre not being more involved. When he did get a chance, he missed three consecutive free throws. I really feel sorry for him

Defense:

The primary weaknesses I saw were when our bigs tried to double out and when they went for the steal and left the basket unprotected. I would rather see them stay with their man then go for the steal and miss. There were some good defensive plays by the bigs, but i do think we were outrebounded tonight.

I thought Seth has difficultly staying in front of a big quick guard. He tends to be beaten pretty often, but as our only 3 point threat tonight he has to stay in the game. Andre was playing good spirited defense when he came in. If we could only get him going again on offense we might have something difficult for UNC to defend.

Kyle and Nolan played well defensively again as usual.

Don't know what to suggest for this team. Is it Mason and Kyle inside with Nolan, Seth and Andre out and Tyler as a sub? I doubt that would work against UNC, but if we win the next time, we have to be able to convert more outside shots.

[rotogod00]

I am probably the third or fourth poster to say this but right now UNC is a better team than Duke. We cannot match up well with their inside game and while it hurts to admit it, if everyone comes back next year, and that includes Irving, they will be better than us again next year.

We will not be able to match up with Zeller, Henson, Barnes and McAdoo. The 3 Plumlees and Kelly just do not compare to them. We will have a better back court but their's will not be shabby.

I think that when Irving went down, it evened the playing field immensely. I honestly believe that with him we were in a good spot to repeat. As of now, I cannot see us repeating...I cannot see us as a Final4 or even an Elite 8 team

unless kyle playing well, like kyle, i agree

[roywhite]

What stuck out:
Nobody but Seth hitting a "3" even though we shot a bunch
Too many Heels finishing at the rim
Dawkins going 0-3 from the line late...

just seemed like one of those days

Next game.

[Highlander]

Offensively, I thought we got some great looks, but we couldn't knock them down. UNC gave Kelly the corner 3 FIVE TIMES, and the only one he hit was a couple feet inside the line. Singler also missed some great looks. Don't fault them for taking them, but you can't win if you don't hit your shots.

Our defense was pretty atrocious, and UNC hit pretty much everything they threw up in the first half, and rebounded the ones that missed. They outplayed us for the entire game except for a short stretch at the start of the 2nd half.

Oh, and Mason's 5th foul was bogus.

I don't think a #1 seed is out of the question, but it's very much a long shot. Just as likely would be if we lose the ACC tourney and UNC wins it. In that scenario, I could see us dropping to a #3 seed, with UNC a #2. Given Georgetown's predicament, that could mean we lose out on playing in Charlotte. If that happens, I will be one sorely annoyed ticket holder.

[karmacoma]

That's a really silly thing to say. Singler can score in a variety of ways - from outside, to down in the post. He's struggled in the last half of this season - there's no dispute about that. But calling a guy with over 2000 points on his career "limited" offensively is ridiculous.

Agreed. "Limited?!" I don't think so. But I bet dollars to donuts he's tired.

[BleedsP287]

On a positive note, Nolan has a POTY game with 30 pts. He is literally a one man wrecking crew with what looks to be a bunch of average players around him.

I think a lot of that is he is the best on the team at creating his own shot. And we don't have a very well executed organized offense, so create your own is the rule. And Nolan's awesome. Things would have been different with Kyrie, but without him I think Carolina is better, certainly at home. On a neutral court where we're not ice cold from 3 point land we can beat them.

[rotogod00]

Offensively, I thought we got some great looks, but we couldn't knock them down. UNC gave Kelly the corner 3 FIVE TIMES, and the only one he hit was a couple feet inside the line. Singler also missed some great looks. Don't fault them for taking them, but you can't win if you don't hit your shots.

Our defense was pretty atrocious, and UNC hit pretty much everything they threw up in the first half, and rebounded the ones that missed. They outplayed us for the entire game except for a short stretch at the start of the 2nd half.

Oh, and Mason's 5th foul was bogus.

I don't think a #1 seed is out of the question, but it's very much a long shot. Just as likely would be if we lose the ACC tourney and UNC wins it. In that scenario, I could see us dropping to a #3 seed, with UNC a #2. Given Georgetown's predicament, that could mean we lose out on playing in Charlotte. If that happens, I will be one sorely annoyed ticket holder.

think only way we drop to a 3 is if we lose opening round game of tourney

[karmacoma]

Lots of folks view Kyrie returning as the answered prayer; I'll take Kyle Singler returning.... the "real" Kyle who can knock down open shots.

Without that, Duke is simply not very special. Pretty evident tonight. With Kyle making shots, Duke can beat anyone on a given night, with or without Kyrie, IMHO.

Agree wholeheartedly. We can have a deep run with Kyle being Kyle. I'd like to see him get some rest during the ACC tourney. Hope Hairston can steal a few of his minutes.

[Delaware]

I am not here to gloat, don't need too. What a turn around for this UNC team. With everyone we lost, both to graduation, to the NBA, to dismissal, and to transfer, what a surprising result. I am proud of our team. I hope I never see Nolan Smith suit up against us again. And finally, I do not blame the kids from storming the court.

Kong... serious question: Why is this game "court storm" worthy?

Beat number 1? Nope.
Beat a team or program you are not supposed to beat half the time? Nope.
Huge comeback? Nope.

[BlueDGal]

I am probably the third or fourth poster to say this but right now UNC is a better team than Duke. We cannot match up well with their inside game and while it hurts to admit it, if everyone comes back next year, and that includes Irving, they will be better than us again next year.

We will not be able to match up with Zeller, Henson, Barnes and McAdoo. The 3 Plumlees and Kelly just do not compare to them. We will have a better back court but their's will not be shabby.

I think that when Irving went down, it evened the playing field immensely. I honestly believe that with him we were in a good spot to repeat. As of now, I cannot see us repeating...I cannot see us as a Final4 or even an Elite 8 team

Roy Williams has done a much better job with his team this year than Coach K has.

i don't agree....Coach K had a major challenge when Kyrie went down....Roy just had to finally listen to the fans and ditch Larry Drew (took him a long time too).....our team is still a work in progress.

[Channing]

i don't agree....Coach K had a major challenge when Kyrie went down....Roy just had to finally listen to the fans and ditch Larry Drew (took him a long time too).....our team is still a work in progress.

getting a little late for that ...

[ChicagoHeel]

If you had told me that Z and Henson would combine for 24 points and we would shoot about 55 percent from the line I would have thought we would lose.

The difference was that we had multiple contributions and you had two.

I have great admiration for smith. Not only his skill but his obvious desire. Impressive. Hope we never see him again.

singler 6-31. Wow.

Not to boast, but I did mention in an earlier post that I thought Marshall could be an effective scorer and that it could swing things are way. That was our key in the first half.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?24580-MBB-Duke-Carolina-Pre-Game-and-In-Game-Thread&p=480860#post480860

there will be a rubber match.

[rotogod00]

If you had told me that Z and Henson would combine for 24 points and we would shoot about 55 percent from the line I would have thought we would lose.

The difference was that we had multiple contributions and you had two.

I have great admiration for smith. Not only his skill but his obvious desire. Impressive. Hope we never see him again.

singler 6-31. Wow.

Not to boast, but I did mention in an earlier post that I thought Marshall could be an effective scorer and that it could swing things are way. That was our key in the first half.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?24580-MBB-Duke-Carolina-Pre-Game-and-In-Game-Thread&p=480860#post480860

there will be a rubber match.

that'd be the only "fair" thing in this conference this year. very top heavy

[taiw93]

He's one of the most civil UNC fans I know (considering the extreme lack of civility among most of them), and does a good job of providing the light-blue point of view in enemy territory. His team won and ours lost tonight, and it sucks. But UNC and its fans (and I limit the term "fans" to those who didn't completely turn on them earlier this year) deserve this win. And yeah, the court storming should be embarrassing for Heel fans - I guess I'll take it as a compliment...

[dukelifer]

Duke played hard but UNC really was strong in the first half. To beat them- you have to knock them back and Duke did not do that. I thought with a week to rest- they would be much more intense defensively. Never saw Thornton- never saw Hairston. I thought K would throw everything at them to disrupt them. I was surprised that he did not.

Kyle is in a major shooting slump. He brings so much to the team - and his shots are really in the rhythm of the offense but they are consistently short and without him hitting- Duke will not go far. Shooting slumps can correct themselves- but time is running out.

Curry is a great- big game player. I discount the Va Tech fiasco. He likes the big moment.

Kelly had WIDE open looks. But he rushes that shot and when he misses the ball seems to lead to a fast break every time. It was not that he missed that killed Duke- but that it seemed to always lead to a UNC score.

UNC kept their poise- which was the most impressive part of the game tonight. In the start of the second half- Duke had them thinking but again they did not make a shot in critical moments. Without something inside- Duke is not able to take advantage.

UNC is going to get worn out in the second half of games. It will be interesting to see how they do in both tourneys.

Duke's D is not strong enough or disruptive enough. They miss the energy and length of a Thomas and the smarts of Scheyer. So they need to score more and when you have droughts like tonight- you cannot beat good teams.

UNC is solid- not sure they are a FF team- but they are certainly capable of getting there with a good path. I really don;t want them to win the NC- short of that - I give em credit for a good year. Barnes may have done enough to say bye to CH. We shall see.

[BleedsP287]

What stuck out:
Nobody but Seth hitting a "3" even though we shot a bunch
Too many Heels finishing at the rim
Dawkins going 0-3 from the line late...

Next game.

We saw very little of TT
Kyle's cold shooting again
MP still chasing the fall away hook, I hate that shot. K should ban it.

[rsvman]

Painful, just painful.

Kyle's shooting woes have got to be psychological rather than physical. His shot motion still looks perfect. Shots are close but rim out over and over again. Maybe a couple of hypnosis sessions between now and the ACC tournament would right the ship? (I'm only halfway facetious.)

I thought we should have fed the hot guys more and fed the cold guys less.


If Kyle comes back we can beat anybody.

[Greg_Newton]

Agreed. "Limited?!" I don't think so. But I bet dollars to donuts he's tired.

Again, here's what I mean by that: http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?24275-Nolan-Smith-Jersey-Retirement&p=476343#post476343

Not trying to bash Kyle, who has been a great player for us and given everything he has to Duke. I just think the perceptions are a little off when it comes to him as a primary offensive option.

[eddiehaskell]

this team takes so many 3s because they dont really have any slashers other than nolan. Kyle can sorta drive but with an athletic/faster person guarding him he becomes more shooter (which obviously isn't working). curry, dawkins, singler...all shooters.

[Duke79UNLV77]

He's probably the most civil UNC fan I know, and does a very good job of providing the light-blue point of view in enemy territory. His team won and ours lost tonight, and it sucks. But UNC and its fans (and I limit the term "fans" to those who didn't completely turn on them earlier this year) deserve this win. And yeah, the court storming should be embarrassing for Heel fans - I guess I'll take it as a compliment...

Actually, I'd take ChicagoHeel or Wheat over Kong any day. Or Clemnop or other posters from other teams. I rarely see any point in Kong's posts, and he obviously is enjoying the attention given the frequency of his posts on our board. I mean, really, if Duke had won a game like this, would you be a postamatic on the UNC board or would you celebrate on your own board? He's a troll. Nothing more.

[SCMatt33]

Overall, I actually thought our effort wasn't as bad as it looked. I think everything got a bit magnified by the emotion and stakes of the game. We pretty much played them even in the second half, and we saw the big difference between being at home and on the road. At home, we could ride the emotion to keep momentum going when we made a run. On the road, that just won't happen. Luckily, that is the last road game we will play this year, and it really varies from team to team whether neutral court play tends to mirror home or road play more. We won't know where that falls for us yet, since this group without Kyrie hasn't played on a neutral floor yet.

We got killed inside, in transition, and on the boards in this game, but those are all things you would have given the edge to Carolina before the game anyway. What really helped them in the first half was they made a bunch of jump shots and got the hustle plays. Given their front court, losing the rebounding battle isn't deadly, but they got so many rebounds from perimeter guys, often after the ball hit the floor. That can't happen.

On offense, I thought our mistakes were mainly mental. It's not that we took too many threes on a bad shooting night, but they weren't the threes you want. If Kyle, Nolan, and Seth took 30 threes off of passes from inside the arc that were moderately contested at worst, that would be fine. Too often though, we took threes early or in the middle of the shot clock that were off the dribble, or off perimeter passes where guys had to turn to face the basket. Seth made some of them, but that doesn't make them good shots. Ryan had a tough night, but he really compounded it in a way he didn't have to. He had three wide open threes to start the game and missed them all. I don't want Ryan to stop shooting, but if he's that wide open and not hitting, he could take an easier shot to try and build a rhythm. He finally did that and made a shot. He only took one shot after that, though, and it came out after going half way down. With all of that said. That being said, this isn't like '08 or '09 where we needed to be "hot" from the outside to beat top teams, we just need to not be "cold" if that makes sense.

It's pretty obvious that rivalry aside, UNC is a pretty bad match-up for us this year. Big teams have been bad match-ups for us in general, but when a team has multiple big guys, it really gives us problems. Any time that we lost either big guy, either going for a steal, hedging out high, etc. You could follow it down the rotation to an easy layup by the guy who was left. Teams with only one legit big guy have a much harder time taking advantage of this. Not that anyone should be worried about late tourney match-ups right now, but I'd be much more worried about a team like Kansas, who can throw the Morris Twins plus Robinson at you as opposed to Ohio St. Sullinger would definitely have a big game against us, but I think we could keep the other guys in check.

One other thing that popped into my head is that all of a sudden, we seem to have been basically playing 6 guys in a game and that can't be a good thing. Only eight guys played at all, and neither Tyler nor Dre got serious minutes. ESPN says Dre got 12, but I think that was pumped up a bit at the end when we got desperate and needed a shooter. The last few games it has been the starters plus Tyler, with Miles not playing much, but foul trouble put an end to that early. I'm not a big "too many minutes" guy, especially with Kyle and Nolan, but within a single game, I can't see mostly 6 guys keeping up in a fast paced game.

[rotogod00]

this team takes so many 3s because they dont really have any slashers other than nolan. Kyle can sorta drive but with an athletic/faster person guarding him he becomes more shooter (which obviously isn't working). curry, dawkins, singler...all shooters.

unfortunately have one of the best in the nation sitting on the bench in street clothes

[Kfanarmy]

What does tonight's game spell for the ACC tourney?
I really would like to see the Plumlees scoring on a routine basis...really if they were just told to try they could draw some fouls.
Can RK hit a three or not? At this point, it seems to be more myth than reality; so If his game isn't playing on the outside on offense, what is it?
Andre and Seth both have some toughening to go it appears, Seth's performance at VT and Andre's foul shooting tonight were both about mental toughness it seems. They both have time, so we'll see where that goes.
If both Duke and Carolina make it to the ACC final, I think it will be a war. Just don't see Carolina shooting that well or Duke shooting that poorly, then again if Kyle's legs (or eyes whatever has taken his shot away) don't come back someone else will need a good game or two.

Down one, with 30 seconds to go, who do you turn to on this team? Nolan and Kyle will have both played near 40 minutes and have a tough time beating defenders at that point...what do you do?

[ChicagoHeel]

Come on. I have no trouble with the court storming. Do you have any idea how low we felt last year? We just won our 14th Acc game, almost triple last year's total and beat the reigning national champ who just happens to be our biggest enemy. If that is not pure joy, what is? This whole "we are better because we would not storm the court because we are bigger than that" sounds like you are trying to steal victory from the jaws of defeat.

Duke is a great team. Take it as an honor.

[dukelifer]

Roy Williams has done a much better job with his team this year than Coach K has.

This is just a silly statement- I am sorry. They split the regular season matchups. Duke had a different ACC schedule. Much better job? C'mon.

[NashvilleDevil]

This does hurt us in many ways. We have lost the image of superiority (perhaps it was inflated), so it will hurt us in recruiting, and we are likely to look very average in the tournaments.

How is this going to hurt recruiting? Do you think recruits in the 2013 or 2014 classes are not going to choose Duke because they lost to UNC by 14 in 2011? Did Duke's demolition of UNC last year stop top players from choosing to come to UNC next year? Duke's incoming class is top 5 and includes the Naismith player of the year and one of the top PGs in Quinn Cook. Right now the 2012 class is off to a good start with Alex Murphy and Rasheed Sulaimon. So please explain to me how one loss to UNC is going to affect Duke's recruiting?

[BleedsP287]

Kong... serious question: Why is this game "court storm" worthy?

Beat number 1? Nope.
Beat a team or program you are not supposed to beat half the time? Nope.
Huge comeback? Nope.

They won the regular season when everyone had them NOT winning it. They did it at the last home game of the season on senior night against their most hated rival. I can see it.

[rotogod00]

Come on. I have no trouble with the court storming. Do you have any idea how low we felt last year? We just won our 14th Acc game, almost triple last year's total and beat the reigning national champ who just happens to be our biggest enemy. If that is not pure joy, what is? This whole "we are better because we would not storm the court because we are bigger than that" sounds like you are trying to steal victory from the jaws of defeat.

Duke is a great team. Take it as an honor.

can't disagree with you, CH

[kong123]

Kong... serious question: Why is this game "court storm" worthy?

Beat number 1? Nope.
Beat a team or program you are not supposed to beat half the time? Nope.
Huge comeback? Nope.

I understand why you think the kids shouldn't have stormed the floor, I get it. But, these are kids and they are having fun. I do not fault them for that. UNC fans have been through a lot over the last 14 months. I'm OK with them celebrating an ACC regular season championship and a win over your fiercest rival. It isn't an 82-50 victory, but it feels a bit like it!

[Son of Mojo]

Someone wrote me on facebook to say not only did they storm the court but they cut down their nets...............really? Really???? That's beyond sad IMO.

We played horrible defense (QUIT doing the double team with a big at the top of the key--it NEVER WORKS), took unnecessary jumpers, and missed some open jumpers. Meanwhile, the evil empire executed well and took advantage of our mistakes as they appeared. When Dre missed those three FT's, that was the official death knell. Try to learn from the errors, bottle the feelings of playing this badly, and take it out on opponents the rest of the way. The year ain't over yet, folks. This sincerely sucked, but in the grand scheme it's just one game. Some bad things repeated themselves that need correction, but build and move on. Not throwing in the towel yet..........and I want them next week in Gboro. NEXT.

PS--about the language--I didn't use any bad language in the in-game thread. I even used all symbols instead of any letters without any connotation to a curse and still got the dreaded wanker.............porque?

[ajgoodfella7]

Coming into this season I though there was about a 5% chance that a team other than Duke would win the ACC. I thought there was about a 1% chance it would be UNC. There has just been way too many 2 versus 5 games lately where Duke can only get good offensive efficiency from 2 guys each game.

As much as people made fun of UNC earlier this year and last year for not having any sense of a structured offense, their offense has looked much better than ours the past month.

And I feel bad that Kyle has been stuck in this current stretch, but I still think he is forcing way too many shots right now. When he is struggling to make wide open J's, he shouldn't be taking turn around 15 footers with :15 seconds on the shot clock, IMO. He needs to find ways to make other offensive contributions and just let the scoring come to him when its there.

Nolan has way too much pressure on him right now to be a leading scorer, leading facilitator, and shutdown defender. I am worried that it will eventually take its toll and start to wear him down in the ACCT.

The sky is not falling, but we have some serious deficiencies that need to be straightened in order to make any kind of a push in the tourney.

[rotogod00]

How is this going to hurt recruiting? Do you think recruits in the 2013 or 2014 classes are not going to choose Duke because they lost to UNC by 14 in 2011? Did Duke's demolition of UNC last year stop top players from choosing to come to UNC next year? Duke's incoming class is top 5 and includes the Naismith player of the year and one of the top PGs in Quinn Cook. Right now the 2012 class is off to a good start with Alex Murphy and Rasheed Sulaimon. So please explain to me how one loss to UNC is going to affect Duke's recruiting?

maybe the recruiting of tony parker? again, bigs got outplayed badly

[jdj4duke]

I am so embarrassed.


About being insufferably snarky?

Give it a rest. Your team was better, they won, and they have been complimented greatly and deservedly on the game tonight.

Now it will be fine if you take your ball and go run on the court, or on IC, with the other Heel fans for the rest of tonight.

[dukelifer]

Come on. I have no trouble with the court storming. Do you have any idea how low we felt last year? We just won our 14th Acc game, almost triple last year's total and beat the reigning national champ who just happens to be our biggest enemy. If that is not pure joy, what is? This whole "we are better because we would not storm the court because we are bigger than that" sounds like you are trying to steal victory from the jaws of defeat.

Duke is a great team. Take it as an honor.

UNC won the NC two years ago. Duke beat the reigning champs last year by the biggest margin ever- there was joy- but no storming. UNC is a great program and had one bad year in a row- wow- remember who you are.

[Coastal Devil]

What I don't get is we wait until 3 mins left to pick up Marshall before half court. Why didn't we do that earlier? It's not like he's that quick.. great passer yes. I was screaming the whole game..pick him up, pick him up. I just don't get it. Guard him to go right not left. Our defense on him was not aggressive at all. TT should have been in his grill until 5 fouls were called. Marshall had it wayyyy to easy the whole game.

[jdj4duke]

Someone wrote me on facebook to say not only did they storm the court but they cut down their nets...............really? Really????

They always cut down the nets. Even the 09 team did.

Careful, though. I think we cut the nets down last year as well, if I recall.

But there was no storming of the court.

[jipops]

In Duke's last 3 games it has assist totals of 6, 9, and 9. The offense is at it's low point right now. Kenpom has us rated high in offensive efficiency but clearly at this point in time we are not an efficient offense. The reason for this is also clear, it's why we have a vigil thread.

I don't think we should lose sight of what this team has accomplished despite it's glaring weaknesses. Yes we have been led by two excellent seniors, but I always believe K does such a masterful job in masking his teams weaknesses. We have all seen other teams with the same types of strengths and issues crumble much earlier in the season and even struggle to get a decent seed in the tournament or even be in the tournament. I always point to the 2007 as being a masterful job by K. Any other coach in America would not have gotten that team in the tournament. Roy proved last year he couldn't have. Now, the 2011 team is obviously much better and far more experienced but like 2007 has to deal with some talent issues.

A lot of me still feels like this team is going to make a good run in the tournament. Part of me is very concerned. I hate that we appear to have lost Andre. The 3 missed ft's were very telling, he just isn't focused at all and is without confidence. I do fear K may have missed on this kid a bit.

[Duke79UNLV77]

I understand why you think the kids shouldn't have stormed the floor, I get it. But, these are kids and they are having fun. I do not fault them for that. UNC fans have been through a lot over the last 14 months. I'm OK with them celebrating an ACC regular season championship and a win over your fiercest rival. It isn't an 82-50 victory, but it feels a bit like it!

True. Only Haitians can relate to what UNC went through.

[ChicagoHeel]

While I think we are a tough match up for you, if we play a game where Singler has even a modestly good night and a few more open threes go down, it could be different. It is a very fine balance. I am worried that we don't have an answer for Smith. I thought it was remarkable the way he could score around our shot blockers.

[dukelifer]

I understand why you think the kids shouldn't have stormed the floor, I get it. But, these are kids and they are having fun. I do not fault them for that. UNC fans have been through a lot over the last 14 months. I'm OK with them celebrating an ACC regular season championship and a win over your fiercest rival. It isn't an 82-50 victory, but it feels a bit like it!

Not good enough reasons- and UNC fans have been through a lot? You are two years removed from a NC and several major wins over Duke in Cameron. Do UNC fans have that short of memory. This was a win from start to finish- you don't storm the court.

[AlaskanAssassin]

KM seems to be the only guy TT couldn't contain. It might have been a mental thing, but from what I have heard, TT owned KM in high school...what happened!?

[rotogod00]

In Duke's last 3 games it has assist totals of 6, 9, and 9. The offense is at it's low point right now. Kenpom has us rated high in offensive efficiency but clearly at this point in time we are not an efficient offense. The reason for this is also clear, it's why we have a vigil thread.

I don't we should lose sight of what this team has accomplished despite it's glaring weaknesses. Yes we have been led by two excellent seniors, but I always believe K does such a masterful job in masking his teams weaknesses. We have all seen other teams with the same types of strengths and issues crumble much earlier in the season and even struggle to get a decent seed in the tournament or even be in the tournament. I always point to the 2007 as being a masterful job by K. Any other coach in America would not have gotten that team in the tournament. Roy proved last year he couldn't have. Now, the 2011 team is obviously much better and far more experienced but like 2007 has to deal with some talent issues.

A lot of me still feels like this team is going to make a good run in the tournament. Part of me is very concerned. I hate that we appear to have lost Andre. The 3 missed ft's were very telling, he just isn't focused at all and is without confidence. I do fear K may have missed on this kid a bit.

very, very telling stat indeed. essentially a one-on-one team right now

[loran16]

And they were nearly all wide open shots too (Ryan's 5 were).

0-17*

Make just 6 of those, under 33%, then we're at least in the game, if not winning.

0 for bleeping 17

*The official box score will say 0-16, but I'm counting the 3 FTs Dre missed on a fouled three point attempt.

[NashvilleDevil]

I hate that we appear to have lost Andre. The 3 missed ft's were very telling, he just isn't focused at all and is without confidence. I do fear K may have missed on this kid a bit.

Missed how? How he has used him this year or in evaluating him when he was being recruited?

[roywhite]

What I don't get is we wait until 3 mins left to pick up Marshall before half court. Why didn't we do that earlier? It's not like he's that quick.. great passer yes. I was screaming the whole game..pick him up, pick him up. I just don't get it. Guard him to go right not left. Our defense on him was not aggressive at all. TT should have been in his grill until 5 fouls were called. Marshall had it wayyyy to easy the whole game.

Good observation. That might very well be an adjustment K makes next week in the ACC tourny final.

The other task for the coaching staff will be to get some of our shooters back on track....Singler, Kelly, Dawkins....surely at least one of those guys can get it going?

Be interesting to see what the master, Coach K, can do to fix some flaws and patch some holes.

[kong123]

I'm gonna quit. I have no interest in gloating. A lot of you guys have been very fair to me and some have even sent me positive PM's telling me to stick around. I will not respond to anymore attacks. We played well and won the game. You guys had a great 2nd half last game and stole a big game in Cameron. Maybe we will play again next weekend? Who knows. Have a great night and don't be too hard on your team. Losing one game doesn't ruin a season, unless its your last game. Duke has a few games left to play.

[dbd4ever]

Yes we lost and there are many things to point the finger at, but one thing that frustrated me is the inability to find THAT lineup at crunch time. I think the best lineup to compete is the plums, single, Seth and nolan. But when Kyle can't get it going, we are dead on offense with only two scoring options, as the plumlees are not go to scorers. And when we do one plumlee, Kyle, Seth, nolan, and Andre/Tyler, we get killed in the paint.

And I think that I am among many here who would love to see Andre get going again, but it seems as if the other guys don't even look his way at times. He needs a confidence boost and fast.

Hopefully this week they can rest up and get ready for a push. Kyle especially. Who knows and maybe we get some good news towards the end of the week.

Side note: did anyone at the game notice Kyrie's demeanor? He seemed very stoic in the few shots that they showed him on the tv. Just wondering.

[Johnboy]

Come on. I have no trouble with the court storming. Do you have any idea how low we felt last year? We just won our 14th Acc game, almost triple last year's total and beat the reigning national champ who just happens to be our biggest enemy. If that is not pure joy, what is? This whole "we are better because we would not storm the court because we are bigger than that" sounds like you are trying to steal victory from the jaws of defeat.

Duke is a great team. Take it as an honor.

I agree. I always take it as a compliment when Carolina fans act like they won the national championship when they beat Duke. Duke fans celebrate with a huge bonfire. I don't see much difference, honestly.

[dukestheheat]

He's one of the most civil UNC fans I know, and does a very good job of providing the light-blue point of view in enemy territory. His team won and ours lost tonight, and it sucks. But UNC and its fans (and I limit the term "fans" to those who didn't completely turn on them earlier this year) deserve this win. And yeah, the court storming should be embarrassing for Heel fans - I guess I'll take it as a compliment...

EVERY time we lose a basketball game, the court gets stormed. Virtually every game I've seen Duke lose over the last 15 years has been followed by the storm. Plain and simple, this is a compliment to Duke.

If Carolina beats Kansas, do they storm the court? No.

I think it's cool to get stormed upon b/c it's the ultimate sign of respect and over the last 25 years in college basetball, NO TEAM has earned what we've earned to get to the point where we get stormed every loss. That's the bottom line.

dukestheheat.

[CLW]

UNC won the NC two years ago. Duke beat the reigning champs last year by the biggest margin ever- there was joy- but no storming. UNC is a great program and had one bad year in a row- wow- remember who you are.

Yeah that pretty much sums up the argument. We could have stormed the court last year and talked about "how far we had come" since the 06-07 season. We celebrated/cheered in the stands.

Kentucky boards seem to agree that a program the quality of UNC/UK/Duke/KU (aka "The Blue Bloods") should NEVER storm the court for a home conference win.

http://kentucky.rivals.com/showmsg.asp?fid=1383&tid=155946031&mid=155946031&sid=888&style=2

[dukebluesincebirth]

I hate to say it but UNC won because they're the better team right now. Duke could get better and I hope to God that Singler comes alive (he's killing me these last few games!) during tourney time. These teams showed us that as usual, strong inside play close to the basket beats relying on the long 3 point shot. UNC's post play outplayed Duke's shooting. Mason's stat line (opts 5 fouls) killed us. We needed more from him. Disappointing game but we must put it behind us quickly if we want any shot at a successful postseason. I hope Nolan and Seth can get some help, some way. Someone has to step up.

[Duke79UNLV77]

While I think we are a tough match up for you, if we play a game where Singler has even a modestly good night and a few more open threes go down, it could be different. It is a very fine balance. I am worried that we don't have an answer for Smith. I thought it was remarkable the way he could score around our shot blockers.

Gracious comments. Thank you for not being Kong. I do think UNC's remarkable length creates problems, but Singler has missed some open shots, too. Unlike Nolan, KS can really only be great if he's consistently shooting very well, which he did for the last 2 1/2 months last year. Not for the last month and a half or so this year. We shall see.

[jv001]

Not good enough reasons- and UNC fans have been through a lot? You are two years removed from a NC and several major wins over Duke in Cameron. Do UNC fans have that short of memory. This was a win from start to finish- you don't storm the court.

As one member says they are: University of No Class

[dyedwab]

1) We have had one season-long problem that explains a lot of things (poor starts, poor shot selection, defensive lapses, weird turnovers). This team has periods of extreme sloppiness in every game - more than any other Duke team I remember.

2) We need Kyle back - I mean the Kyle who is an offensive threat. And I don't care what we do to get him untracked - hell, if he needs to be bringing the ball up the court every time, we need to just do it

3) This team is not great defensively - and it doesn't yet understand that a play doesn't finish on D till we get the ball back

4) On the plus side - Nolan Smith is great.

5) Seth Curry is becoming a real threat - thank the good lord.

6) Miles, Mason, and Ryan did a fine job defending Henson and Zeller - for the most part. The big guys need to get better at denying 2nd chance opportunities.

A disheartening loss - and I'm hoping that K fixes what can be fixed - and that is the imprecision of our game and getting Kyle back in the flow....everything else? who knows.

[ajgoodfella7]

I agree. I always take it as a compliment when Carolina fans act like they won the national championship when they beat Duke. Duke fans celebrate with a huge bonfire. I don't see much difference, honestly.

I've said it many times, its when teams don't storm the court against us after a win that we should start worrying.

[moonpie23]

some statistics for me to remember...


1888

[Gthoma2a]

How is this going to hurt recruiting? Do you think recruits in the 2013 or 2014 classes are not going to choose Duke because they lost to UNC by 14 in 2011? Did Duke's demolition of UNC last year stop top players from choosing to come to UNC next year? Duke's incoming class is top 5 and includes the Naismith player of the year and one of the top PGs in Quinn Cook. Right now the 2012 class is off to a good start with Alex Murphy and Rasheed Sulaimon. So please explain to me how one loss to UNC is going to affect Duke's recruiting?

Pretty sure I heard Tony Parker was in the stands. That means a problem to me.

[hurleyfor3]

Kentucky boards seem to agree that a program the quality of UNC/UK/Duke/KU (aka "The Blue Bloods") should NEVER storm the court for a home conference win.

Kentucky... now there's a fanbase we should all be turning to as arbiters of reasonable behavior. :D

Seriously, I largely agree. It'll be a sad day when people stop storming the court after beating us.

[Gthoma2a]

KM seems to be the only guy TT couldn't contain. It might have been a mental thing, but from what I have heard, TT owned KM in high school...what happened!?

Kendall has been allowed off the bench, but Tyler has been forced to sit. That is the difference, when Tyler is on the court it is a big thing in his mind, but Kendall has gotten used to it.

[dukelifer]

I agree. I always take it as a compliment when Carolina fans act like they won the national championship when they beat Duke. Duke fans celebrate with a huge bonfire. I don't see much difference, honestly.

There is a difference. Celebrating a win in your backyard or rushing Franklin street is fine-however you do it- but storming the court is for mid-major teams that beat a powerhouse or for teams that have been in the depths for years. UNC has had one bad year!

[ncexnyc]

I had three at half time and here are several more.
1. At what point in time do we finally admit we are what we are?
2. When do we stop making excuses for Kyle?
3. Why aren't we focusing our offense around players who can actually make a shot?
4. Why haven't some players caught on to how they are supposed to play defense?
5. Since these players haven't caught on, why hasn't the staff made adjustments?
6. Can we start a game looking like we care?
7. Can we play a full 40 minutes of solid ball?

Now I'm sure one of the stats geeks will come along shortly with some of their cherry picked stats and try to convince everyone that things are just peachy on the S.S. Duke, but we've all been watching the same games and have seen the same exact things week after week.

For those of you expecting the light to suddenly come on for a few of these players, you can forget about it. This was the last regular season game and if they haven't got it by now they ain't gonna get it by Friday.

[cspan37421]

I don't care if they storm the court or not. I just want to know ... who wants to go rioting in College Park?

[ChicagoHeel]

Gracious comments. Thank you for not being Kong. I do think UNC's remarkable length creates problems, but Singler has missed some open shots, too. Unlike Nolan, KS can really only be great if he's consistently shooting very well, which he did for the last 2 1/2 months last year. Not for the last month and a half or so this year. We shall see.

I do wonder what is going on with Singler, but maybe it is easy to forget that even seniors are practically kids and can suffer drops in confidence. He took some bad shots, but missed some wide open ones too. At one point late in the game I was actually pleased when he launched a three- not something I would have EVER expected. I hope he finds his stroke again, but not until he is wearing a different uniform.

[CLW]

Kentucky... now there's a fanbase we should all be turning to as arbiters of reasonable behavior. :D

Seriously, I largely agree. It'll be a sad day when people stop storming the court after beating us.

Touche. However, if even Kentucky fans KNOW it was wrong for UNC to storm the court you know your opponent's behavior was quite silly no?

[sandinmyshoes]

They were just better than us tonight.

I don't blame their kids for storming the court. Given what they went through the past year and a half or so, it's understandable. It's really quite a bounce back for their program. Clinging to that on the part of our fans is nearly as bad as terping.

It'll be an interesting rematch if it comes off. We still have an experience edge, and a depth edge. I have to admit that Williams was masterful with substitutions with such a thin team.

I had a bad feeling about it when their walkons outscored our starters.

I also began to worry that maybe Nolan was trying to do too much. I don't know if it's because the other guys just weren't producing, or if he was just hogging the ball. Probably the former, given Nolan's team oriented nature, but it was just too much of everyone else watching him not matter what the reason.

This is the last time I'm going to say I told you so, but about Marshall. I told you so. That kid just understands the game.

But let's get ready for the tournaments.

[NYC Duke Fan]

i don't agree....Coach K had a major challenge when Kyrie went down....Roy just had to finally listen to the fans and ditch Larry Drew (took him a long time too).....our team is still a work in progress.

It is March 5 th, we cannot still be a work in progress !!

[SoCalDukeFan]

1.UNC-CH plays so much better with Marshall than Drew its not even funny.
2.Kyle needs to be Kyle.
3. Kelly had wide open 3's. If he hits them its close. He is a very good shooter and got his shot.
4. We need something more inside.
5. UNC-CH is better than us right now. I think that their lack of depth and experience will hurt them in the NCAA's.
6. It is very hard for me to understand how a toe injury in December could end a season for a great player. I know its true. I don't understand string theory or the popularity of Jason Bieber either.

SoCal

[xblade]

LOL my AIM just got lit up with the usual trash talk. I then asked them when was the last time you lost on the road and your opponent's fan base stormed the court like a bunch of idiots.



You should. Your [censored] North Carolina. One of the all-time great college programs and your fans stormed the court like they just won the NCAA title against a collection of NBA all-stars.

I know if the situation were exactly reversed I would be EMBARRASSED that our fans were dumb enough to not act like they've been there before.

Yes, we wouldn't want that, horror of all horrors. You know who whines about court storming? Losers. Here's a newsflash....many of those fans haven't been there before. I would not be embarrassed in the least if Duke fans celebrated a big win by storming the court. But then again, I can think for myself.

Who started that "act like you've been there before" nonsense anyway? I'm guessing it was Coach K, considering how some have just latched on to it like it's the gospel of life or something. Maybe fans shouldn't cheer at all at games either, and instead should act like they've been there before, and just sit quietly and enjoy the game.

And don't get me started on the players. What's with the celebrating after a good play? Act like you've been there before, guys....ESPECIALLY if you happen to win the ACC or NCAA tournament. NO CELEBRATING! Act like you've been there before, or someone will be embarrassed because....well, I don't know, a tarheel fan might make fun of you or something, lol.

You know when I'm going to start worrying? When fans stop rushing the court after beating us.

[taiw93]

From Pat Forde's post on the ESPN MBB blog:

"Roy Williams to the fans who stormed the court: 'Clear the court so we can celebrate. We want to cut down these flippin' nets.'"

LOL.

[rthomas]

Pretty sure I heard Tony Parker was in the stands. That means a problem to me.

Who was sitting in our stands last year this time?

[DMV2434]

I want to see Mason, Kyle, Andre, Seth, and Nolan starting. Starting would help Andre's confidence and I think Kyle will stop settling for 3's with slower big guys guarding him. I also think Ryan is better coming off the bench than Andre has been.

[BlueThru&Thru]

Kentucky... now there's a fanbase we should all be turning to as arbiters of reasonable behavior. :D

Seriously, I largely agree. It'll be a sad day when people stop storming the court after beating us.

The storming the court deal is obvious. When UNC has been top dog and expected to win, there was no court storming. This year is unique. Last year sucked so badly and the Heels were ridiculed at the beginning of this season. Many on this board gleefully predicted that they would finish only marginally better than last year. So to have a phoenix rising from the ashes to take the regular season title? I get it. Switch places and I bet the Dukies might storm the court as well. A rematch would be great. Nolan is clearly the best player in the conference and will bring it every night. Don't see a way to stop him. The key is KS. When he's on you will be very difficult to stop. Your bigs will also become more effective. On a neutral court, UNC needs to have KS continue his recent play. But he's quality and you can't count on it. Hope to see you in G'boro.

[PSurprise]

I think where this team is vs. last year is purely on the defensive end. Our offense looked bad at times last year but we could always count on our defense to pick up the slack. Was losing Jon that big of a deal on the defensive end?? Yeah we talked about Zoubek's offensive rebounds last year, but where he was most effective was on the defensive end contesting shots and taking up a lot of room (and rebounds!). Why can't Mason and Miles ever stay on the ground on the defensive end? Put your hands up!!! They go for blocks, give up their man for the o-rebound and it's an easy put back. How many charges have the Plumlees taken this year? Compare this to Zoubek last year. He's 7'1" and taking charges! (in addition to getting numerous rebounds). The Plums are not that much shorter or smaller. It drives me crazy!

The Plumlees do not have the hands of Seth Curry. Going for steals or 'pitpocketing' an opponent after a rebound has been secured is ridiculous. Mason did have the one good play this game, but that's about the only time I remember him actually having like that be successful (w/o fouling). How many fouls have they been called for this year for that? It's like talking to a 2-year-old, Keep your hands to yourself!

There's a lot of issues on the defensive end that this team needs to figure out, or we will lucky to be a Sweet Sixteen team IMO. just my .02

[Gthoma2a]

We haven't depended enough on our bench this year. We have gus who don't see the light of day, and I think that could be one of the reasons that Andre had his shooting problems. We haven't brought Hairston off the bench in forever, we haven't played Tyler Thornton as much as it would have taken to have him develop into a great option at the point, and Dre spends so much time on the bench that he is actually affected by pressure now (he wasn't bothered in the Elite 8 or ACC title game last year, but he is now). We can fault Roy for the wholesale substitutions, but we need to use guys enough for them to develop. How are we supposed to see them play like sophomores or juniors when they are stepping into games for their first times (my feelings are that freshman and sophomores should be playing like sophomores and juniors respectively at the end of the year)?

[dukelifer]

Yes, we wouldn't want that, horror of all horrors. You know who whines about court storming? Losers. Here's a newsflash....many of those fans haven't been there before.

Well maybe you are right- as long as it was Freshman and Sophomores- storm away. But if there were junior and seniors there- that is a bit much- they have been there and more.

[AlaskanAssassin]

Who was sitting in our stands last year this time?

M.Gbinije, who committed a few days later, I believe.

[hokiedevil]

Of course, the ACC only grants one championship - to the Tournament winner. IF Duke can rest their legs, they should have no problem winning another ACC Championship!

[cspan37421]

Who started that "act like you've been there before" nonsense anyway?

I think it got a lot of play when Barry Sanders would hand the football to the referee after scoring a touchdown instead of doing a stupid dance.

[BlueDGal]

I had three at half time and here are several more.
1. At what point in time do we finally admit we are what we are?
2. When do we stop making excuses for Kyle?
3. Why aren't we focusing our offense around players who can actually make a shot?
4. Why haven't some players caught on to how they are supposed to play defense?
5. Since these players haven't caught on, why hasn't the staff made adjustments?
6. Can we start a game looking like we care?
7. Can we play a full 40 minutes of solid ball?

Now I'm sure one of the stats geeks will come along shortly with some of their cherry picked stats and try to convince everyone that things are just peachy on the S.S. Duke, but we've all been watching the same games and have seen the same exact things week after week.

For those of you expecting the light to suddenly come on for a few of these players, you can forget about it. This was the last regular season game and if they haven't got it by now they ain't gonna get it by Friday.

perhaps too much focusing most of the season on what we don't have (Kyrie) and not enough on who we really are....... I agree with most of this....not negative just realistic. i have no idea about Kyle.....just love the guy.

[Rich]

M.Gbinije, who committed a few days later, I believe.

I think he was referring to Harison Barnes.

[loran16]

*Mods feel free to move this if you want.*

Guys, Guys. This was a painful hell of a loss. We got beat, and it wasn't a close game. Or so it appears.

But this team is not a bad team, and in all honesty, what happened today was almost entirely a total fluke.

In the first half, for nearly all of the first half (except for a few transition buckets), Duke's D played brilliantly. BRILLIANTLY. REMEMBER Carolina's strength is INSIDE. And yet at halftime, if I recall, Henson and Zeller combined had 10 points. They would finish with only 24.

Meanwhile, Duke forced Carolina into taking a ton of shots outside the paint, including Barnes taking several long 2s with his foot on the line. Carolina's shooters are not great...even Barnes in the games w/o Drew is only a 33% shooter from 3....but a fluke happened:

Carolina made nearly all of the tough shots. You can call this rising to the occasion if you want. But know this: This was the equivalent of Notre Dame hitting 20 three pointers against Nova, or how Duke's big 3 all finally couldn't seem to miss against WVU last year. When it happens, Carolina will win. But it won't happen often; in fact it will rarely happen more than once per season. In effect, it's luck.

Now the D got a little weaker in the 2nd half, I admit. But the Defensive game plan was not bad, nor was it executed poorly.

----------------------------------------------------

Meanwhile, the offense played brilliantly for most of the game as well. We lost by 14. Meanwhile, Duke went 0-16 from 3 aside from Seth Curry, ZERO for SIXTEEN and that number is really 0-17 since Dre missed all three FTs.

And these were wide open shots, set up by great offensive movement. Our accuracy rate on wide open shots is at least 30% and is almost certainly higher. Had we shot 30%, or 5 for 17, we would have 15 more points...and again we lost by 14.

Once again, Duke did NOT play poorly offensively; it played great! We only turned the ball over 9 times, and offensive rebounded 10 boards (not great but fairly solid against a big front court).

What happened was we simply didn't make open shots. We were dead cold. That happens once or twice a year. But that's not a trend, or a sign that the Offense is a failure. That's the sign of a fluky night. It doesn't happen often, and odds are good it won't happen again.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Duke lost tonight because UNC's offense put up a once-in-a-season level of hitting shots while Duke's Offense put up a once-in-a-season level of simply being unable to hit shots.

We were flukishly cold and they were flukishly hot. It's incredibly rare, but sometimes that happens.

But the odds of such a thing happening twice in a season for a team this good? Close to Zero.

This was a fluke. Nothing More.

Next Play.

[Greg_Newton]

Good observation. That might very well be an adjustment K makes next week in the ACC tourny final.

Thing is, we tried this in the first half in Cameron - we were all over Marshall, and he killed us. This prompted a string of posts about how we needed to back off him because he couldn't shoot anyway, and we did, and it seemed to work. He just hit some shots and took what he was given today.

[ChicagoHeel]

I want to see Mason, Kyle, Andre, Seth, and Nolan starting. Starting would help Andre's confidence and I think Kyle will stop settling for 3's with slower big guys guarding him. I also think Ryan is better coming off the bench than Andre has been.

Seth Davis had a piece recently where he was critical of K for burying Dawkins on the bench and indicated that K was potentially undermining his confidence. I don't follow Duke closely enough to comment, but his body language when he clanked those three free throws looked like a man with 0.0 confidence. Any thoughts?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/seth_davis/03/02/mailbag/index.html

[Bob Green]

Who started that "act like you've been there before" nonsense anyway?

I always thought the quote belonged to Vince Lombardi but I've read it was Paul Brown. And for the record, I do not believe it is nonsense.

[AlaskanAssassin]

I think he was referring to Harison Barnes.

last year? not last year, he was was already a tar by that time.

[hurleyfor3]

I always thought the quote belonged to Vince Lombardi but I've read it was Paul Brown. And for the record, I do not believe it is nonsense.

I thought it was Bear Bryant.

[JBDuke]

Of course, the ACC only grants one championship - to the Tournament winner. IF Duke can rest their legs, they should have no problem winning another ACC Championship!

Actually, this is now incorrect. Since the early 90's, the ACC has officially recognized a Regular Season Champion and a Tournament Champion. However, the automatic NCAA bid still belongs to the Tourney winner.

[dukelifer]

I said it before. A win by either team would not change my opinion of their chances in the post season. I thought Duke's seniors would rise to the occasion- only one did tonight with a brilliant game at times. Still with Duke horrid shooting somehow we basically tied them in the second half. Strange game- but rivalry games often don't tell you much. Remember in 1991- Duke got pummeled by UNC in the ACC tourney and won the NC.

[Bob Green]

I want to see Mason, Kyle, Andre, Seth, and Nolan starting. Starting would help Andre's confidence...


Seth Davis had a piece recently where he was critical of K for burying Dawkins on the bench and indicated that K was potentially undermining his confidence. I don't follow Duke closely enough to comment, but his body language when he clanked those three free throws looked like a man with 0.0 confidence. Any thoughts?


I am of the opinion that Andre Dawkins should be starting. Our offense is stagnant so we need to place players onto the court who have the potential to light it up!

[DukeDevilDeb]

*

What happened was we simply didn't make open shots. We were dead cold. That happens once or twice a year. But that's not a trend, or a sign that the Offense is a failure. That's the sign of a fluky night. It doesn't happen often, and odds are good it won't happen again.

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Duke lost tonight because UNC's offense put up a once-in-a-season level of hitting shots while Duke's Offense put up a once-in-a-season level of simply being unable to hit shots.

We were flukishly cold and they were flukishly hot. It's incredibly rare, but sometimes that happens.

But the odds of such a thing happening twice in a season for a team this good? Close to Zero.

This was a fluke. Nothing More.

Next Play.


Thank you, Loran16, for one of the most sensible post-lost posts we've had in a long time. Carolina shot lights out tonight, and we couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with a nickle. That happens. But Nolan was sensational; Seth was amazing! The defense was good... we hit a couple of threes and keep our rhythm, the game ends differently.

Do you realize that we have not seen this team lose at home for 2.5 years? That's an outrageous record! Yet all we do is pick and pick when they do lose. Wouldn't I like them to win? Of course. But I also recognize that these are kids (big kids, but kids) who have off nights, who get carried away in the heat of the moment, who try and try and try... and shouldn't be faulted for their occasional losses.

Coach K has always said that it is exceptionally difficult to beat a team--any team--three times in one season. I, for one, would prefer to have lost this game tonight if we can beat them in the tournament.

We're back to 0-0. Now let's go 3-0 for the next part of the season. GO DEVILS!

[Ultrarunner]

In Duke's last 3 games it has assist totals of 6, 9, and 9. The offense is at it's low ...I hate that we appear to have lost Andre. The 3 missed ft's were very telling, he just isn't focused at all and is without confidence. I do fear K may have missed on this kid a bit.

I disagree a bit. Andre was busting his butt on defense tonight and really working hard. That's not the sign of a kid that has checked out.

He does need to learn to move without the ball on offense. The t/o when he rotated over for defense and Nolan was driving was a Nolan error. Andre was doing what he should be in that situation.

[dukelifer]

I am of the opinion that Andre Dawkins should be starting. Our offense is stagnant so we need to place players onto the court who have the potential to light it up!

I agree- he is the closest thing to a weapon that Duke has. Kelly may need to come off the bench.

[jipops]

Seth Davis (I think) had a piece recently where he was critical of K for burying Dawkins on the bench and indicated that K was potentially destroying his confidence. I don't follow Duke closely enough to comment, but his body language when he clanked those three free throws looked like a man with 0.0 confidence. Any thoughts?

Saying K is destroying his confidence is just the typical over-dramatization of the situation by a member of the media. But Davis does seem to be correct that Andre's confidence is shot right now. The missed 3 ft's from an 82% ft shooter backed that up. Andre is taking as much of a hit as anyone with Kyrie's absence. It has been very difficult to integrate him in the offense b/c he still does not have much ability to facilitate his own offense. With a pg, that wouldn't be much of an issue and it wasn't back in November and Dec.

[Gthoma2a]

I am of the opinion that Andre Dawkins should be starting. Our offense is stagnant so we need to place players onto the court who have the potential to light it up!

I agree. I'm not trying to be rude to him (he is a good kid), but with his numbers, coming off the bench would make some sense for Kelly. Off the bench is where he had his success, if I recall. He plays hard, but he's missing open looks frequently, and defenses are realizing it recently.

[diablesseblu]

I always thought the quote belonged to Vince Lombardi but I've read it was Paul Brown. And for the record, I do not believe it is nonsense.


Amen! I hope I never see the Crazies storm the court in Cameron. There are classier, safer ways to celebrate a great home victory.

I come from one of those unusual NC familes that's split down the middle with obsessed Duke and UNC grads/fans. Can guarantee that our Carolina contingent is mortified by the Dean Dome court stormin' tonight. It's almost as if it's but another acknowledgement of their struggles from last year.

As for our guys, next play. I believe in them & K.

[Billy Dat]

UNC really played out of their minds offensively in the first half. In the second half, after we came out swinging and quickly cut the lead to 7, we failed to capitalize. In particular, there was that stretch of the second half, with around 12-14 minutes left, when we had the ball 3 consecutive times down 8 and couldn't cut it to 6 or 5. While our shot selection wasn't great, there were many, many 3s that we missed that were really good looks. Like the VTech game, we just couldn't knock them down. I don't think too many of our 3s were bad looks, we just couldn't convert. Andre, an 80%+ free throw shooter missing 3 free throws in a row kind of summed it up. On the bright side, I liked Andre's D on Barnes down the stretch, but I guess it wasn't exactly crunch time at that moment.

We are who we are, I don't see much changing, except that we do have the potential to shoot much better. If that happens, like it did against WVU in the Final Four last year, we are extremely hard to beat. We will continue to live and die by the 3...something we are 27-4 doing....here's hoping we live.

As for the court storm..yeah, it was weak, but so what? If it makes you feel better to say how weak it was, then, I guess, say it...but that's small consolation right now. They kicked our butts in all aspects.

[Dr. Tina]

LOL my AIM just got lit up with the usual trash talk. I then asked them when was the last time you lost on the road and your opponent's fan base stormed the court like a bunch of idiots.



You should. Your [censored] North Carolina. One of the all-time great college programs and your fans stormed the court like they just won the NCAA title against a collection of NBA all-stars.

I know if the situation were exactly reversed I would be EMBARRASSED that our fans were dumb enough to not act like they've been there before.

I couldn't agree more with this! Have some self-respect! If I recall correctly, our beloved Blue Devils, having lost 4 straight in Cameron to the Tarholes, completely thrashed them last year ON SENIOR NIGHT...AT HOME...and we had the self-respect not to storm the court. Makes me proud to be a Blue Devil fan, knowing we don't act like we're "underdogs" to our long-time rivals.

Then, again, maybe that shouldn't surprise me, given how easily UNC's fans turned their back on their team's one really bad year in MANY years...last year.

[taiw93]

I am of the opinion that Andre Dawkins should be starting. Our offense is stagnant so we need to place players onto the court who have the potential to light it up!

I agree. At the very least, I believe he should have some more plays run for him (have him coming off screens and such). When in he's seemed to be pretty stagnant on offense, which I'm not sure is the fault of Andre or the coaching staff. It was great to see him play solid D today, and I hope that he gets more PT going forward. I would like to see a starting lineup of:
1. Nolan
2. Seth
3. Andre
4. Kyle
5. Mason
With Tyler, Miles, and Kelly first off the bench in that order.

[anon]

In the first half, for nearly all of the first half (except for a few transition buckets), Duke's D played brilliantly.

We gave up over 51 points in the first half. Please think again.

[dyedwab]

Amen! I hope I never see the Crazies storm the court in Cameron.

Here's the thing - we used to storm the court - at least when I was an undergrad. I remember storming the court after big wins against Carolina and other. It doesn't bother me when other schools do it that much.

I would really like to have more players who took joy in quieting the frenzied crowds we face on the road....

[loran16]

We gave up over 51 points in the first half. Please think again.

Did you read the post? Did you watch the game?

Duke performed brilliantly....Carolina got only low percentage shots. But note the language: LOW PERCENTAGE shots. Some small amount of the time, those will go in. And in rare fluke games, a bunch of those will go in.

That's why we gave up 51. Not because of bad defense. It happens. It's why teams don't go undefeated.

[Saratoga2]

Seth Davis had a piece recently where he was critical of K for burying Dawkins on the bench and indicated that K was potentially undermining his confidence. I don't follow Duke closely enough to comment, but his body language when he clanked those three free throws looked like a man with 0.0 confidence. Any thoughts?

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/seth_davis/03/02/mailbag/index.html

Earlier in the season, Andre was playing excellent ball and looked like he might become a consistent scorer. His defense wasn't bad then and at 6'4", he gave us a player who could guard the bigger scoring guards we often face.

There has definitely been a loss in confidence by Andre and seemingly a loss in the coaches trust of Andre to play well. In a recent game, he hit two for four on threes, and tonight he was energetic on defense and looked pretty good. Those are signs he might be brought back as a contributor.

A problem though is his offensive seems to be essentially standing still waiting for the ball to come and taking a three if open. Missing the three free throws tonight was just another statement that this kid has lost confidence and is down.

Based on what I saw in the game tonight, getting Andre going may be the best chance of being a competitive tournament team.

[jipops]

Question to UNC fans, which was greater?: Duke's team assist count or Roy's 3rd person references in the post-game presser?

[wk2109]

Even after tonight's game, I'm not completely convinced that UNC is a better/more talented team than Duke. If both teams executed their game plans at an average level (Duke makes a reasonable % of its open threes and Carolina doesn't make some ridiculous shots in the first half), the game would have been pretty even and might have even favored Duke. I want to see them play on a neutral court and see what happens.

I'm watching recaps of other games on ESPN and I've seen so many highlights of teams just dumping the ball inside and a big man getting a bucket within 2-3 seconds off an easy layup. Why is it that Duke's bigs (basically just Mason because Miles and Ryan don't get many post passes) have to resort to such difficult shots when they get the ball inside? That little hook Mason has developed is nice, but a 2 foot layup is still a much better shot. I think the only guy who is capable of catching a pass inside and getting an easy bucket is Kyle. If he could have gotten some post passes and muscled up a shot over Barnes quick enough to beat the weakside help, that might have worked.

UNC's lineup switch with Kendall Marshall reminds me of what the '09 Duke team did with Jon Scheyer -- it's completely changed the face of that team. I don't think UNC's wing play/shooting is good enough for them to get to the Final Four, but they're playing with a lot of confidence.

I really hope we see a Round 3 next Sunday. Duke still hasn't lost a neutral site game since March 2009.

[Law Prof]

loran16
Stop the Panic

*Mods feel free to move this if you want.*

Guys, Guys. This was a painful hell of a loss. We got beat, and it wasn't a close game. Or so it appears.

But this team is not a bad team, and in all honesty, what happened today was almost entirely a total fluke.

In the first half, for nearly all of the first half (except for a few transition buckets), Duke's D played brilliantly. BRILLIANTLY. REMEMBER Carolina's strength is INSIDE. And yet at halftime, if I recall, Henson and Zeller combined had 10 points. They would finish with only 24.

Meanwhile, Duke forced Carolina into taking a ton of shots outside the paint, including Barnes taking several long 2s with his foot on the line. Carolina's shooters are not great...even Barnes in the games w/o Drew is only a 33% shooter from 3....but a fluke happened:

Carolina made nearly all of the tough shots. You can call this rising to the occasion if you want. But know this: This was the equivalent of Notre Dame hitting 20 three pointers against Nova, or how Duke's big 3 all finally couldn't seem to miss against WVU last year. When it happens, Carolina will win. But it won't happen often; in fact it will rarely happen more than once per season. In effect, it's luck.

Now the D got a little weaker in the 2nd half, I admit. But the Defensive game plan was not bad, nor was it executed poorly.this wasn't just a single poor shooting night.

what worries me is that the guys who missed the open threes have been missing them for several games lately, especially Kyle and Ryan. If this were just a single game of missing open jumpers, I wouldn't be worried. But it looks like a trend, and not a good one.

[anon]

Did you read the post? Did you watch the game?

Duke performed brilliantly....Carolina got only low percentage shots. But note the language: LOW PERCENTAGE shots. Some small amount of the time, those will go in. And in rare fluke games, a bunch of those will go in.

That's why we gave up 51. Not because of bad defense. It happens. It's why teams don't go undefeated.

Yes, I was at the game. I don't think we played extremely poorly, and I credit much of the loss to Carolina's shooting. But we consistently were a little lazy on defense, including on the offensive boards, which led to, yes, a lot of high-percentage shots for Carolina as well.

[House G]

Interesting parallel:

Tonight:
Nolan: 9-19 FGM-A 30 Pts
Kyle: 3-14 FGM-A 0-5 3PM-A 8pts

Vs. Baylor (Regional Final)
Nolan: 9-17 FGM-A 29 Pts
Kyle: 0-10 FGM-A 0-5 3PM-A 5pts

[sbroc012]

Im not criticizing Coach K in anyway...the man knows what hes doing....however did it seem like this was the type of game where he decided that it was up to the players to win it?...and that he just sort of sat back and tried to let them figure it out. I didnt see him get up off the bench once during gameplay... I know he sits alot but usually he gets up and into at some point.
I dont know...maybe I was seeing things....but someone tell me of they saw different?

[ajgoodfella7]

Did you read the post? Did you watch the game?

Duke performed brilliantly....Carolina got only low percentage shots. But note the language: LOW PERCENTAGE shots. Some small amount of the time, those will go in. And in rare fluke games, a bunch of those will go in.

That's why we gave up 51. Not because of bad defense. It happens. It's why teams don't go undefeated.

I didn't think Duke's D played terrible, but I definitely don't think it was brilliant by any stretch. UNC had 24 points in the paint in the first half and many of them were on run-outs. Sure they hit their share of contested jumpers, but they had a lot of shots around the rim, particularly in the first half.

[CDu]

Firstly, congrats to UNC (uggghh) for earning the regular season ACC championship. They were the better team for 3 of the 4 halves against us this year. It looks like the results have caught up with the talent on their roster.

Secondly, I'm disappointed in those of our fans who are whining about the court storming. They just won the ACC regular season, beat their rivals, and proved the doubters wrong. It's an honor that being beaten is worthy of a court-storming. Frankly, I hope we never lose again. But frankly, I hope that, every time we have to lose, the other team feels the need to storm the court. It means we're relevant.

The offense wasn't good, and the defense was not great. UNC's shooting made us look bad, but the fact remains that they were getting wide open looks. Kudos to Marshall. It's amazing how much better that team is with him running the show.

What a disappointing night. The team just doesn't seem to be progressing. It concerns me moving forward that so many of our players remain one-dimensional offensively. It puts a ton of pressure on Smith and Singler to create offense for themselves and others.

It also concerns me that I don't think we've beaten a single tournament team outside of Cameron since Irving went down (unless Clemson sneaks in). 13-3 in the ACC seems a bit hollow when we lost all of the non-home games to the decent/good teams. Hopefully we change the tune a bit in the ACC tournament.

[mapei]

I honestly don't think storming the court is all that big a deal. Who cares? It's not like burning campus property is all that much to be proud of. IMO, both are the acts of silly college kids who get caught up in sports. Meh. When we go on and on about it on a bulletin board, we're the ones who look petty.

That said, I have always heard "act like you've been there before" as attributed to Dean Smith, but in his case it was directed at players, not fans.

I cannot remember the last time Kyle had two good games in a row. This year, he has become a pretty average player, for whatever reason. Yes, he has games where he rebounds and/or defends well, but I would seldom say that it is an exceptional talent, just a good one. And tonight I don't think he even did those things in a notable way. Duke has had quite a few great defensive players over the years. KS isn't close to any of them. If he sometimes stands out on this team's D, it says more about the rest of the team than about Kyle.

OTOH, Nolan has been phenomenal. I *was* proud of him tonight, and really all season. He's been our best player all year.

Kudos also to Curry on offense, Miles on D.

It's time to stop playing the "if Kyrie were healthy" card. He's not; he hasn't been. He won't be. If our team depends so much on a freshman, even a very good one like KI, we just aren't very balanced. Accept it.

Kelly was just awful tonight, in all phases of the game. I'm puzzled, since I thought he has been playing decently or better lately. I can't imagine why we kept going to him offensively.

Kendall Marshall is really impressive. The best player on the court not named Nolan.

[Billy Dat]

Im not criticizing Coach K in anyway...the man knows what hes doing....however did it seem like this was the type of game where he decided that it was up to the players to win it?...and that he just sort of sat back and tried to let them figure it out. I didnt see him get up off the bench once during gameplay... I know he sits alot but usually he gets up and into at some point.
I dont know...maybe I was seeing things....but someone tell me of they saw different?

That's usually a sign that he thinks they're playing hard and doing the right things. His coaching style has evolved to one where I think he really prefers to prepare the players to, as much as possible, take responsibility for on court action themselves. he believes that is the path to maximizing potential. If he senses lack of effort of toughness, he goes crazy. But, if he thinks his team is really working hard and making good decisions, he is usually pretty tame, aside from working the refs. I am really interested to see his postgame comments to see if they echo these theories.

[kong123]

That's usually a sign that he thinks they're playing hard and doing the right things. His coaching style has evolved to one where I think he really prefers to prepare the players to, as much as possible, take responsibility for on court action themselves. he believes that is the path to maximizing potential. If he senses lack of effort of toughness, he goes crazy. But, if he thinks his team is really working hard and making good decisions, he is usually pretty tame, aside from working the refs. I am really interested to see his postgame comments to see if they echo these theories.

He spent most of the time defending his team in the press conference. The press was really hard on the team and he kept mentioning the players confidence and the fact that they won 27 games. He also said that the important games start in two weeks.

[anon]

Ryan has now hit 3 out of his last 24 three-pointers. I know that shot exists for him, but if it's not falling for whatever reason, why not put it away for now and work on it in practice?

[BlueDGal]

He spent most of the time defending his team in the press conference. The press was really hard on the team and he kept mentioning the players confidence and the fact that they won 27 games. He also said that the important games start in two weeks.

love Coach K.....he doesn't throw his players under the bus like the other coach down the road.

[wsb3]

As the game ended I thought about what Coach K says to this team tonight. I don't see this being a time he hollers. I think he talks to them because I think he knows the psyche of his team way better than any of us do.

I thought before the game that if we did not shoot well from 3 we would lose. What was the stat late in the game? Outside of Seth the rest of the team was 0-14..

We lost our best player after 8 games and we are 27-4. How many other colleges could have pulled that off? I think the only one is coached by the man in Durham.

[Dr. Tina]

UNC won the NC two years ago. Duke beat the reigning champs last year by the biggest margin ever- there was joy- but no storming. UNC is a great program and had one bad year in a row- wow- remember who you are.

Amen, amen, amen!

[taiw93]

That's usually a sign that he thinks they're playing hard and doing the right things. His coaching style has evolved to one where I think he really prefers to prepare the players to, as much as possible, take responsibility for on court action themselves. he believes that is the path to maximizing potential. If he senses lack of effort of toughness, he goes crazy. But, if he thinks his team is really working hard and making good decisions, he is usually pretty tame, aside from working the refs. I am really interested to see his postgame comments to see if they echo these theories.

I noticed this too, and am also looking forward to hearing what he has to say. Tonight was an interesting contrast to the Clemson game (in which he positively lit into his team). I've also noticed over the years that he tends to coach more actively in home and neutral (including NCAAT) games than road games; perhaps letting his guys figure things out in hostile environments is a way Coach builds toughness in his players?

[AZLA]

Did you read the post? Did you watch the game?

Duke performed brilliantly....Carolina got only low percentage shots. But note the language: LOW PERCENTAGE shots. Some small amount of the time, those will go in. And in rare fluke games, a bunch of those will go in.

That's why we gave up 51. Not because of bad defense. It happens. It's why teams don't go undefeated.

By Duke standards, defense was sorely lacking especially in the paint. The bigs were consistently out of position, slow to help and this contributed to fouls. Always looked one step behind. How about Carolina's full court passes on the break immediately after a Duke bucket? There were numerous occurrences of Zeller getting out on a break with a Duke defender lagging behind, giving him a free lane to the basket. Or Kendall Marshall going coast to coast, spinning on Curry before the half. Curry had real trouble keeping Marshall or anyone in front. Dawkins did a solid job on Barnes, but Dawkins saw very little minutes. Carolina's 52% shooting was due to the points inside, not a fluke. They only made 3 three-pointers (attempting 9), to Duke's 27 attempts. Ugh. Dukes 35% shooting did them no favors, but defense lost the game. Makes me appreciate just how @&%! important Zoubs and Lance really were to last year's champi

[sbroc012]

Billy-dat
yea i agree whole-heartedly with you on that notion...I honestly felt like the game was won simply because of the home court...it just seemed like the effort was their and carolina was just overly hyped for this game...maybe im wrong...but if we put that kind of effort up (besides Kyle's night) on a neutral court, I think we will win 75 to 90 percent of the time. And we all know anything goes in the NCAAT

[Starter]

Couple of thoughts...

-- I couldn't care less if Carolina fans stormed the court. It's their prerogative, and it doesn't affect our team one way or another.

-- I don't think you can write this loss off as a fluke. This is the way Duke has played for quite some time, just in a very weak conference. They just finally played against a team that can make them pay, and incidentally, has played much better ball than they have for quite some time.

-- Singler had a weird game, in what has been a weird season. I keep waiting for the light to go on and for him to take the bull by the horns a bit, and for someone expected to be a contender for National Player of the Year, he never really carved out his identity on this team this season. He wore a brace on that knee for a long time after surgery, and I wonder if he ever really felt like himself.

-- Kelly's main discernible talent is his ability to shoot well for his size. But he's 3-for-23 on threes in February and his shot looks impossibly flat right now. I don't think the other aspects of his game equal a starting player right now, but I'm not quite sure what direction they would go in.

-- With Dawkins, he's clearly not living up to his level of talent and potential. But I wouldn't blame Krzyzewski for that. He had some games earlier this season in which he played so poorly, he was nearly impossible to keep on the court. I think his confidence is broken, but I think his horrible tragedy combined with being far from home at an even younger age than is normal may be a big reason why. Dealing with the transition from high school to college is enough even without that.

-- Smith is playing brilliantly. But this team is starting to remind me of the late-vintage Redick teams in terms of one player carrying an impossible load for one player, regardless of how talented, to carry. I honestly expected more of an adjustment after Kyrie went down, but this team is playing far too shallow considering the amount of talent they have.

Know what I'd like? I'd like Krzyzewski to just tear everything up and come up with something new. What they're doing now just isn't working. It's stale and puts too much of the burden on Smith. I have no suggestions, which makes this somewhat hypocritical, but I'm thinking a drastic change somewhere along the lines of 2001. Consider it a delayed reaction to the Kyrie injury.

They're not good enough as currently constituted, but the talent is most certainly there. I'd like to do something crazy and reactionary and shake things up. And I think Krzyzewski might be frustrated enough to do just that before the ACC's. Guess we'll see.

[dcdrumsinc]

I am against Coach K sticking to the pressure defense hard edging on ball screens by the bigs. No more overplaying. we have been killed on ball screens all years. time to play contain defense

[Billy Dat]

He spent most of the time defending his team in the press conference. The press was really hard on the team and he kept mentioning the players confidence and the fact that they won 27 games. He also said that the important games start in two weeks.

Thanks kong - quick tangent rant - why isn't there a place where we can go and get exact transcripts of the full press conferences within 30 minutes of them taking place - has the commercial internet not been around for close to 20 years now?

Anyway, that's about what I thought he'd say. He'll defend his team to the end, but he obviouly was ok with the effort - as was I - we just couldn't knock down shots and the Heels went crazy in that first half, got the lead, and then it was pretty even. Yes, that's a simplification, but K's offensive philosophy is spread - read - drive - green light for open 3s. That aint changing.

[CDu]

I cannot remember the last time Kyle had two good games in a row. This year, he has become a pretty average player, for whatever reason.

I agreed with a lot of your post except the quoted part about Singler being average this year. He's still been well above average - he just hasn't been the All-American player we'd hoped.

The loss of Irving has changed the dynamics of this team a lot, and takes us from having three guys capable of creating their own shot to two (one of whom has been pretty inconsistent). The rest of the players are fairly one-dimensional offensively.

It appears that Irving probably isn't coming back, so we are what we are. Hopefully we can tighten up defensively, shoot better, and catch some breaks along the way.

[AZLA]

Couple of thoughts...
-- Kelly's main discernible talent is his ability to shoot well for his size. But he's 3-for-23 on threes in February and his shot looks impossibly flat right now. I don't think the other aspects of his game equal a starting player right now, but I'm not quite sure what direction they would go in.


Great analysis and agreed, he's shot is flat and he's not squaring up. What was Kelly doing shooting so many threes from the corner? Miss one, shoot another. Miss five straight -- PASS the ball to your NPOY candidate or the other senior for that shot!

[ajgoodfella7]

-- Smith is playing brilliantly. But this team is starting to remind me of the late-vintage Redick teams in terms of one player carrying an impossible load for one player, regardless of how talented, to carry. I honestly expected more of an adjustment after Kyrie went down, but this team is playing far too shallow considering the amount of talent they have.


I too, have gotten this feeling recently. There comes a point when there is only so much pressure one man can carry. Duke's biggest problem the last month is that there has been absolutely no consistency on the offensive end from anyone but Nolan. Nolan is the leading facilitator, scorer, and defender. And I am starting to worry if even he will be able to keep this up much longer.

[wk2109]

He does need to learn to move without the ball on offense. The t/o when he rotated over for defense and Nolan was driving was a Nolan error. Andre was doing what he should be in that situation.

It doesn't seem like Andre moving off the ball has ever been part of Duke's game plan, so I'm not sure if it's a matter of him learning how to do it rather than the coaches telling him not to do it. Last year, whenever he came in for Jon/Kyle/Nolan, he'd basically just stand on the wing and wait for the ball -- the offense would go from the Big Three constantly curling around in motion to just two guys moving with Dre waiting on the wing. This year hasn't been much different, but during the early part of the season Dre was able to do more with the ball than just shoot it (sometimes he'd drive in for that floater or a pull-up). For two years I've wondered why Duke doesn't run him off screens to get him open looks. I think that could be at least a minor part of the offensive game plan. Maybe he's proven to be much less accurate if he shoots off a curl? I can see him being like JJ, moving off screens and burying threes.

[60's Devil]

I am probably the third or fourth poster to say this but right now UNC is a better team than Duke. We cannot match up well with their inside game and while it hurts to admit it, if everyone comes back next year, and that includes Irving, they will be better than us again next year.

We will not be able to match up with Zeller, Henson, Barnes and McAdoo. The 3 Plumlees and Kelly just do not compare to them. We will have a better back court but their's will not be shabby.

I think that when Irving went down, it evened the playing field immensely. I honestly believe that with him we were in a good spot to repeat. As of now, I cannot see us repeating...I cannot see us as a Final4 or even an Elite 8 team

Roy Williams has done a much better job with his team this year than Coach K has.

Couldn't agree more. The Plumlees including MP3 were not seriously recruited by Roy and I think we can see why. Part of their problem is that they had no serious high school competition. When you play home and home with the Spartanburg Day School, you've got a serious problem.
As to why we don't change our game plan from flipping threes.....its because that is all we've got. From what I see for our recruiting for the next two years, its a lot of good guards. Losing Tyler Adams was a big deal. I would love to see us get even a top 100 guy who can play the post and muscle up. When Mason gets a offensive rebound he always kicks it back outside instead of taking it to the hoop. Last year the Zoubeck miracle saved us. With the recruits we have I see little hope without a good tough big man and someone to coach him.
On a positive note, Nolan Smith is one of the greatest players to ever put on a Duke uniform and he shows up for every game.

[CDu]

Know what I'd like? I'd like Krzyzewski to just tear everything up and come up with something new. What they're doing now just isn't working. It's stale and puts too much of the burden on Smith. I have no suggestions, which makes this somewhat hypocritical, but I'm thinking a drastic change somewhere along the lines of 2001. Consider it a delayed reaction to the Kyrie injury.

They're not good enough as currently constituted, but the talent is most certainly there. I'd like to do something crazy and reactionary and shake things up. And I think Krzyzewski might be frustrated enough to do just that before the ACC's. Guess we'll see.

The problem with this logic is that we don't have a very versatile team. That 2001 team had the versatility (not to mention a LOT more talent) to do crazy stuff. I'm not sure there's really a crazy reactionary change to be made.

[Billy Dat]

AP story finally added the selected presser quotes, here's Ks

""We're a confident team," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "Just because you miss shots, it's not about confidence. Sometimes you miss shots. If you're not confident, you don't take the shots. Confidence is not our problem. We're OK.""

RE: Kelly
Maybe, after not seeing the floor last year, he's hitting the freshman wall. Ba dump dump. Maybe it's time for me to stop reading and go to bed.

[Bob Green]

It doesn't seem like Andre moving off the ball has ever been part of Duke's game plan, so I'm not sure if it's a matter of him learning how to do it rather than the coaches telling him not to do it.

BINGO! We have a winner. We need to run Andre off of double screens to get him open for shots. I'm convinced he stands around on offense because he is told to stand around on offense.

[diablesseblu]

I honestly don't think storming the court is all that big a deal. Who cares? It's not like burning campus property is all that much to be proud of. IMO, both are the acts of silly college kids who get caught up in sports. Meh. When we go on and on about it on a bulletin board, we're the ones who look petty.

That said, I have always heard "act like you've been there before" as attributed to Dean Smith, but in his case it was directed at players, not fans.

I cannot remember the last time Kyle had two good games in a row. This year, he has become a pretty average player, for whatever reason. Yes, he has games where he rebounds and/or defends well, but I would seldom say that it is an exceptional talent, just a good one. And tonight I don't think he even did those things in a notable way. Duke has had quite a few great defensive players over the years. KS isn't close to any of them. If he sometimes stands out on this team's D, it says more about the rest of the team than about Kyle.

OTOH, Nolan has been phenomenal. I *was* proud of him tonight, and really all season. He's been our best player all year.

Kudos also to Curry on offense, Miles on D.

It's time to stop playing the "if Kyrie were healthy" card. He's not; he hasn't been. He won't be. If our team depends so much on a freshman, even a very good one like KI, we just aren't very balanced. Accept it.

Kelly was just awful tonight, in all phases of the game. I'm puzzled, since I thought he has been playing decently or better lately. I can't imagine why we kept going to him offensively.

Kendall Marshall is really impressive. The best player on the court not named Nolan.


No thread hijack intended here...however. After this happened, am not sure how anyone can ever defend/support storming the court as an appropriate celebration.

http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2005/janfeb/features/kay.html


Quite frankly, given the issues of potential injury,liability & the costs of insurance, I'm surprised the ACC hasn't banned it. I prefer a bonfire, a Franklin St. "scene", and even a MD riot any day as opposed to an athlete's possibly being endangered.

[jipops]

We lost our best player after 8 games and we are 27-4. How many other colleges could have pulled that off? I think the only one is coached by the man in Durham.

This fact will continue to be taken for granted, from everyone.

[Starter]

The problem with this logic is that we don't have a very versatile team. That 2001 team had the versatility (not to mention a LOT more talent) to do crazy stuff. I'm not sure there's really a crazy reactionary change to be made.

I know, I'm afraid of that too. I'm just throwing it out there because we pretty much know at this point the way we're playing isn't good enough, and we still have Nolan and Kyle and SHOULD be in the mix for a championship.

By the way, obviously, there's no Duhon on the bench to move into the starting lineup and change up the tempo. But his other changes involved more reliance on Casey Sanders, Reggie Love and Matt Christensen. That wasn't exactly murderer's row. Maybe start Dawkins and hope for a lottery ticket? And get Josh Hairston out of moth balls and see how it goes? Frankly, I'm not sure why he hasn't played more this season. I've been impressed with him in limited time. Honestly, I thought he could have developed into a more useful player than Kelly.

[Wander]

Not much to say that hasn't been said already, but I would like to point out my thoughts that Kelly has never been a good shooter. Winning the 3 point shooting contest in high school was the worst thing to ever happen to him. He's never shot a good percentage for us (yeah yeah, I know he shot very well against the worst ACC team of the past 25 years) and his shot has never even looked good. I think the coaches need to find something else for him to do in the offense, or consider going small in our starting lineup.

[Saratoga2]

Great analysis and agreed, he's shot is flat and he's not squaring up. What was Kelly doing shooting so many threes from the corner? Miss one, shoot another. Miss five straight -- PASS the ball to your NPOY candidate or the other senior for that shot!

He seems to be all arms and legs, otherwise he isn't shooting smoothly and the shot has been flat. He must have shown a lot in practice to have the coach set that shot up for him time after time. I doubt if practicing more will be the answer. Maybe he needs to put that shot aside for the time being.

[g-money]

Saying K is destroying his confidence is just the typical over-dramatization of the situation by a member of the media. But Davis does seem to be correct that Andre's confidence is shot right now. The missed 3 ft's from an 82% ft shooter backed that up. Andre is taking as much of a hit as anyone with Kyrie's absence. It has been very difficult to integrate him in the offense b/c he still does not have much ability to facilitate his own offense. With a pg, that wouldn't be much of an issue and it wasn't back in November and Dec.

I realize that I will probably get skewered for writing this, so let me preface my statement by saying that on the whole, I believe Coach K to be the best psychologist and strategist to ever have coached the game.

I think that spending time in Coach K's "doghouse" rarely leads to a player's improvement. There are surely a small number of cases in the past where a player has benefited, but it is generally much more likely that the player's confidence will suffer. Two examples fom this year's team are Miles and Andre. In my opinion they could both be significantly more consistent contributors at this point in the year if they'd been given a bit longer leash earlier on.

To me the issue boils down to this: When Coach K puts a player on the bench for a significant length of time, it's nearly always in an attempt to mentally challenge the player to make smarter decisions, play tougher, or work harder on defense. For a select few players who have an iron will, the strategy works great. But for most players, especially in this day and age, a benching is taken to mean that the coach has lost confidence in the player. This tends to lead to tentative play and too much anxiety about making mistakes (and the ensuing quick return to the bench) to play well.

I'd love to see Coach K give his younger players more leeway to play through mistakes early in the season. Give them a lecture, look at videotape with them after the game, or even breath fire down their chests, but make sure they are given as much of a chance to succeed as possible. There's a reason Coach K has done an infinitely better job with the US national team than Larry Brown did: His psychology is derived from positive reinforcement rather than punishment. If he can remember to apply this principle to players with somewhat fragile psyches like Miles an Andre, I truly believe he will get more out of them and we will be a better team.

And there's never been a better time to start than now. With Andre's solid D on Barnes during the second half tonight (despite a substantial height advantage, Barnes couldn't score on him), Coach K has his hands on a kernel that can hopefully be used to get Andre back - and beyond - where he was early in the season.

My two cents. Go Duke.

[anon]

Not much to say that hasn't been said already, but I would like to point out my thoughts that Kelly has never been a good shooter. Winning the 3 point shooting contest in high school was the worst thing to ever happen to him. He's never shot a good percentage for us (yeah yeah, I know he shot very well against the worst ACC team of the past 25 years) and his shot has never even looked good. I think the coaches need to find something else for him to do in the offense, or consider going small in our starting lineup.

In terms of shooting percentage on the year, he is a better 3-point shooter than Kyle. I agree that he is shooting VERY poorly right now, though, and should NOT have taken 6 threes today.

[60's Devil]

Ryan has now hit 3 out of his last 24 three-pointers. I know that shot exists for him, but if it's not falling for whatever reason, why not put it away for now and work on it in practice?
Somehow I don't think we need a 6'10" guy who pops threes. We need a 6'10" guy who busts butt under the basket. Just think back to Cherokee Parks going out to shoot those threes....heartbreaking. I can remember Elton Brand and smile.

[lotusland]

I want to see Mason, Kyle, Andre, Seth, and Nolan starting. Starting would help Andre's confidence and I think Kyle will stop settling for 3's with slower big guys guarding him. I also think Ryan is better coming off the bench than Andre has been.

Dre can't guard HB for long. He managed OK for limited minutes tonight but as a starter he would likely struggle. HB at 6'8 is quicker and stronger.

[Wander]

In terms of shooting percentage on the year, he is a better 3-point shooter than Kyle. I agree that he is shooting VERY poorly right now, though, and should NOT have taken 6 threes today.

Yeah, but almost every single shot Kelly takes is 100% open. Not so with Singler. And we know Singler is capable of doing much better (just like we did with Scheyer) - he shot 40% last year and was Final Four MVP. I just don't think Kelly is a good college shooter, period. I've never seen what others on here see in him.

[Kewlswim]

In terms of shooting percentage on the year, he is a better 3-point shooter than Kyle. I agree that he is shooting VERY poorly right now, though, and should NOT have taken 6 threes today.

Hi,

In all fairness to Mr. Kelly, unless your last name was Curry you weren't making 3's tonight. So, I agree that maybe somebody else should have shot a different shot tonight and (unless again you were Seth) it was a good night to lay off the threes.

GO DUKE!

[Starter]

No thread hijack intended here...however. After this happened, am not sure how anyone can ever defend/support storming the court as an appropriate celebration.

http://www.stanfordalumni.org/news/magazine/2005/janfeb/features/kay.html


Quite frankly, given the issues of potential injury,liability & the costs of insurance, I'm surprised the ACC hasn't banned it. I prefer a bonfire, a Franklin St. "scene", and even a MD riot any day as opposed to an athlete's possibly being endangered.

You'd seriously prefer any of this (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/other/2002-04-09-fan-violence.htm) over rushing the court? It's definitely terrible what happened to that Stanford kid -- believe me, I'm not belittling it -- but I would imagine freak injuries like that are extremely rare. And it's not like Duke hasn't rushed the court. I had it happen at least 3-4 times when I was there.

Mind you, I'm not defending or supporting it. I'm just saying it happens, and it's pretty much irrelevant to our team tonight.

[lotusland]

In terms of shooting percentage on the year, he is a better 3-point shooter than Kyle. I agree that he is shooting VERY poorly right now, though, and should NOT have taken 6 threes today.

I didn't think any of the threes Kyle and Ryan took were bad shots except that they didn't fall. We can't change who we are. If the shots don't fall were not going to win some games against tough opponents. IMO our best shot is to take the open shots and hopefully they start falling.

[lotusland]

Not much to say that hasn't been said already, but I would like to point out my thoughts that Kelly has never been a good shooter. Winning the 3 point shooting contest in high school was the worst thing to ever happen to him. He's never shot a good percentage for us (yeah yeah, I know he shot very well against the worst ACC team of the past 25 years) and his shot has never even looked good. I think the coaches need to find something else for him to do in the offense, or consider going small in our starting lineup.

I wouldn't say never. He hit 18 in a row.

[AlaskanAssassin]

AP story finally added the selected presser quotes, here's Ks

""We're a confident team," Duke coach Mike Krzyzewski said. "Just because you miss shots, it's not about confidence. Sometimes you miss shots. If you're not confident, you don't take the shots. Confidence is not our problem. We're OK.""



Here are some video clips from the conference:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/video/9223089/#/vid9223089

[Greg_Newton]

Know what I'd like? I'd like Krzyzewski to just tear everything up and come up with something new. What they're doing now just isn't working. It's stale and puts too much of the burden on Smith. I have no suggestions, which makes this somewhat hypocritical, but I'm thinking a drastic change somewhere along the lines of 2001. Consider it a delayed reaction to the Kyrie injury.

They're not good enough as currently constituted, but the talent is most certainly there. I'd like to do something crazy and reactionary and shake things up. And I think Krzyzewski might be frustrated enough to do just that before the ACC's. Guess we'll see.

Yeah, I'm not sure why we don't go back to something more like the motion offense we saw at times last year. We've got smart players, good shooters, and great-passing bigs. We have talented players that are effective in the right spots, but cannot create on their own in a free-wheeling, one-on-one offense. That screams motion to me.

May be too late at this point though.

[lotusland]

BINGO! We have a winner. We need to run Andre off of double screens to get him open for shots. I'm convinced he stands around on offense because he is told to stand around on offense.

I've never seen Dre shoot coming off a screen. Can he do it? Can sprint down the baseline off a double screen ala JJ, get his feet set, make the catch and drain it? Can he dribble around a high screen, step back and drain it if the defender goes under or cut to the basket if the defender fights through the screen? That's a little different than catching and shooting an open 3 which is what we've seen thus far from Dre. Maybe they've tried it in practice without sufficient success. Tonight it certainly couldn't hurt to try it though...

[diablesseblu]

You'd seriously prefer any of this (http://www.usatoday.com/sports/other/2002-04-09-fan-violence.htm) over rushing the court? It's definitely terrible what happened to that Stanford kid -- believe me, I'm not belittling it -- but I would imagine freak injuries like that are extremely rare. And it's not like Duke hasn't rushed the court. I had it happen at least 3-4 times when I was there.

Mind you, I'm not defending or supporting it. I'm just saying it happens, and it's pretty much irrelevant to our team tonight.


Simply put........it's just NEVER worth the risk. Just because Duke has rushed the court before with some sort of historical impunity does not indemnify today's events.

What is this "it happens" business? If you're a parent, would you tell your child to talk on a cell phone while driving? The idea being, if there's an accident, "it happens".

Let's please separate sporting events, as much as is possible, from acting out in ways that endanger people. We can at least do that in the actual venue, can't we?

[tendev]

I think where this team is vs. last year is purely on the defensive end. Our offense looked bad at times last year but we could always count on our defense to pick up the slack. Was losing Jon that big of a deal on the defensive end?? Yeah we talked about Zoubek's offensive rebounds last year, but where he was most effective was on the defensive end contesting shots and taking up a lot of room (and rebounds!). Why can't Mason and Miles ever stay on the ground on the defensive end? Put your hands up!!! They go for blocks, give up their man for the o-rebound and it's an easy put back. How many charges have the Plumlees taken this year? Compare this to Zoubek last year. He's 7'1" and taking charges! (in addition to getting numerous rebounds). The Plums are not that much shorter or smaller. It drives me crazy!

The Plumlees do not have the hands of Seth Curry. Going for steals or 'pitpocketing' an opponent after a rebound has been secured is ridiculous. Mason did have the one good play this game, but that's about the only time I remember him actually having like that be successful (w/o fouling). How many fouls have they been called for this year for that? It's like talking to a 2-year-old, Keep your hands to yourself!

There's a lot of issues on the defensive end that this team needs to figure out, or we will lucky to be a Sweet Sixteen team IMO. just my .02

Zoubeck also was a mountain who weighed 270. He could not be moved. And he learned how to use his mass effectively. The Plumlees are not nearly as strong. Quick, yes, but massive and mountainlike, no. Offensively, Zoubs was better as well. His hands were much better than the Plums. But it took him until his senior year and Mason is just a Soph. He will come around. But our weakness now is twofold: lack of true PG and lack of an low post threat. With an awesome PG we have a greater low post threat. Without the PG getting inside and dishing to low post players, our inside game is woeful.

I don't really think that Zeller and Henson are dominant players. Marshall just gets them the ball in the right spot. They can put it in the hole when then get the ball with an angle on their defender. Miles and Mason never get that and when Miles does, he still struggles a bit.

[Pantone #287]

I didn't think any of the threes Kyle and Ryan took were bad shots except that they didn't fall. We can't change who we are. If the shots don't fall were not going to win some games against tough opponents. IMO our best shot is to take the open shots and hopefully they start falling.

The issue isn't really whether Kelly's 3's tonight were good or bad shots - he was left wide open to take them and, in our offense, must take them. The issue is that he has demonstrated in recent weeks that he can't consistently hit them, which makes it possible for opposing defenses to sag off of him, thereby negating any ability to drive to the lane for better shots and occupying defensive position to help on other scorers such as Nolan or Kyle and to rebound any missed shots. IMO, his reputation as a good shooter is a bit of an urban legend at this point; the sidespin he gets on the ball, the slowness with which he releases it, and the oft-mentioned lack of arc on the shot make it very difficult for him to make it consistently. Given those elements, the most reasonable option seems to be to put someone in that position who can make the shots more consistently and force the defense to guard him. Andre is the most obvious candidate for that role, but he would need a major confidence boost to be effective in it right now. He demonstrated ample ability earlier in the season, and hopefully he can regain that edge in time for tournament play. Defensively, I don't think Andre is at all inferior to Kelly.

[jipops]

Missed how? How he has used him this year or in evaluating him when he was being recruited?

Poor choice of words on my part, not what I meant. I feel like Andre's psyche is at such a low it is tough to build him back up. I wonder if he even believes his shot is going in right now.

[lotusland]

1. KM does not go right ever. Push him right and see if he can finish on that side of the rim. I'm guessing there's a reason he doesn't do it and he's not athletic enough to go left if you are playing him that way.

2. The Heels don't shoot well but they are very good at getting easy shots around the rim. Don't hedge and Don't front. Keep them as far off the block as possible, don't go for shot fakes, play them straight up and make them play with their backs to the basket and shoot over you. Keep your feet on the floor, block out and rebound. Sure they'll make some shots but they just get one try hopefully with a hand in their face.
3. Our bigs can't reach or commit silly fouls. Use all 15 fouls on Henson if necessary. Make him earn it from the line
4. Play off everyone but Barnes on the perimeter

I know that's not Duke D but KM is not rattled by our man to man and he is clearly capable of finding Henson and Zeller around the rim and they know how to catch and shoot without bringing the ball down below their shoulders. If they beat us on jump shots and jump hooks then so be it.

[Starter]

Simply put........it's just NEVER worth the risk. Just because Duke has rushed the court before with some sort of historical impunity does not indemnify today's events.

What is this "it happens" business? If you're a parent, would you tell your child to talk on a cell phone while driving? The idea being, if there's an accident, "it happens".

Let's please separate sporting events, as much as is possible, from acting out in ways that endanger people. We can at least do that in the actual venue, can't we?

I respect your opinion about rushing the court, you obviously have some good points, and I have no desire to argue about this. Let's keep perspective though. I mean, according to that article I linked, some kid lost his eye in Tucson during a riot after we beat Arizona in 2001. They did $500,000 worth of property damage in College Park the same weekend, flipping over cars and stuff. I witnessed students getting arrested -- including a friend of mine who had his arm broken while being wrestled to the ground -- at the bonfire after the UNC game in 1998, while I saw zero people get arrested or hurt rushing the court following the victory. (Which, incidentally, was one of my favorite moments at Duke, and I doubt I'm alone.) I'm just saying, if you want to get up in arms about court-rushing but you say you're okay with rioting/bonfires after games, I mean... there's far more of a chance something absolutely horrible happens in those circumstances, where there's generally a blazing fire and/or riot squads involved.

I also think if you try to prevent kids from rushing the court -- how, exactly? Mace? -- that it would do more harm than good.

And by no means do I endorse talking on a cell phone while driving. :rolleyes:

All right... now back to this late-breaking installation of the motion offense...

[diablesseblu]

I respect your opinion about rushing the court, you obviously have some good points, and I have no desire to argue about this. Let's keep perspective though. I mean, according to that article I linked, some kid lost his eye in Tucson during a riot after we beat Arizona in 2001. They did $500,000 worth of property damage in College Park the same weekend, flipping over cars and stuff. I witnessed students getting arrested -- including a friend of mine who had his arm broken while being wrestled to the ground -- at the bonfire after the UNC game in 1998, while I saw zero people get arrested or hurt rushing the court following the victory. (Which, incidentally, was one of my favorite moments at Duke, and I doubt I'm alone.) I'm just saying, if you want to get up in arms about court-rushing but you say you're okay with rioting/bonfires after games, I mean... there's far more of a chance something absolutely horrible happens in those circumstances, where there's generally a blazing fire and/or riot squads involved.

I also think if you try to prevent kids from rushing the court -- how, exactly? Mace? -- that it would do more harm than good.

And by no means do I endorse talking on a cell phone while driving. :rolleyes:

All right... now back to this late-breaking installation of the motion offense...

Whatever students do outside of their athletic venues is on them. However, just because their teams have prevailed in their arena/on the playing fields, their successful athletes/classmates should not fear for their safety because of their victories.

Let's dispense with the eye rolling analogy because I "see" pro teams who employ plenty of "rent a cop" security who prevent patrons from accessing the floor/field. For example, how would we feel if KI's toe injury had happened because his "access" to a "celebrating" fan?

Let me be perfectly clear........I am not on any any level equating what happens on the courts/fields as opposed to off of them. I feel strongly however that Kevin White/ Dick Baddour/ and whoever had the unfortunate career choice to follow Debbie Yow at MD all owe it to their student athletes to guarantee their personal safety both in victories and defeats.

[lotusland]

I don't think it's a confidence issue with Andre...

Looked like Dre played hard in limited minutes tonight. I don't think he gave up. He's in a slump and you can see his frustration at times. Nolan was frustrated after his Soph yr and he's POY candidate this year. We Lose Kyle and Nolan and pick up AR and MG next year so I think Dre can earn minutes at 3 next year and possibly more time at 2 if he works on his ball-handling. There's still time for him to do some damage this year too.

[marinbobbyduhon]

That's a really silly thing to say. Singler can score in a variety of ways - from outside, to down in the post. He's struggled in the last half of this season - there's no dispute about that. But calling a guy with over 2000 points on his career "limited" offensively is ridiculous.

Agree with response to the Singler comment. But let's face it, we say a lot of things after a loss that sound myopic to me (especially after any loss to NC). While NC looked great tonight, they could have easily lost (3) more games since we last beat them Feb 9th: they won at Clemson 64-62, won at home to BC 48-46 (their offense looked terrible in that game), and finally they squeezed by FSU 3 days ago 72-70 on a 3 pointer by HB with 4 seconds to go.

The sky isn't falling all you Chicken Littles sitting at your computers. We played poorly tonight and were soundly beaten. Our 3 point shot wasn't falling unless your name was Curry. Kyle is in a slump and appears tired. It happens. Let's hope our guys get the rest they need physically and mentally and come ready to play well and win the ACCT.

NEXT PLAY!

[MartyMcJames]

I agree with those who say Andre should start. Not to punish Ryan for tonight's game, but I think with the lineup of Mason, Kyle, Seth, Andre and Nolan we have a better chance to get off to a good start. Ryan and Miles can still play their minutes, but we need to start games better. I think going with our best offensive players to start off might help in both upcoming tournaments.