BYU

[SoCalDukeFan]

Interesting from many standpoints

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/03/brandon-davies-dismissed-sex-girlfriend-byu_n_830646.html

You gotta admire BYU for honoring its principles.

Wonder how this will affect recruiting?

SoCal

[muzikfrk75]

Interesting from many standpoints

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/03/brandon-davies-dismissed-sex-girlfriend-byu_n_830646.html

You gotta admire BYU for honoring its principles.

Wonder how this will affect recruiting?

SoCal

I think that it will help Utah and Utah State...

This is absolutely devastating for BYU's team, and they played like it tonight, losing 82-64. They can probably kiss that #1 seed goodbye.

[Richard Berg]

Wonder how this will affect recruiting?
Recruits have an extremely short memory, for better or worse. Would you send your kid to a basketball program where teammates shot each other?

Seems unbelievable, yet Baylor around quickly. (it's also a school where sex is prohibited, incidentally)

[uh_no]

Interesting from many standpoints

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/03/brandon-davies-dismissed-sex-girlfriend-byu_n_830646.html

You gotta admire BYU for honoring its principles.

Wonder how this will affect recruiting?

SoCal

the kids know the rules when they sign up for BYU (much like you would at an academy), so I doubt one person breaking the rules is going to deter anyone...

[-bdbd]

Good news for us potentially. It probably drops BYU to the 2-seed line - they looked reeeaaally bad tonight (much worse than a team simply missing a 10-points-a-game player) - and so Duke is now just 4 wins away from a #1 seeding. Yes, I realize that is easier said than done. But even a single loss doesn't guarantee we drop to a #2 seed.

Bad for BYU, but not awful news for Duke and Pitt...

[Richard Berg]

the kids know the rules when they sign up for BYU (much like you would at an academy), so I doubt one person breaking the rules is going to deter anyone...
Not that simple. It's super common for people to agree to rules they have no intention of following, knowing (hoping) the consequences are slim to none.

Analogy: when NC capped their speed limits at 70mph, it didn't deter me from moving there (from Texas, which allows 80mph). I never got caught -- and even if I had, I could've written a check and made the problem go away. However, if I learned that NC was actively tracking speeders via GPS and carting them off to jail, you better believe I'd never come back for Homecoming...not without a chauffeur, anyway ;)

Likewise, there's a big big difference between a school that makes you agree to some nonsense about sex -- a surprisingly large number do -- versus one that actually spies on their students' private lives and kicks them out for noncompliance.

[juise]

The loss of Davies was clearly a big deal for BYU. I know some people tried to play it off a bit because he didn't have a great game against SDSU, but his offensive game and rebounding presence was huge for them. Duke fans, of all people, should know how important having a third scorer is.

Tonight's loss will really hurt BYU's bid for a #1 seed. It has to move them off the top line immediately. First off, there was going to be a question about whether they would be the same team without Davies and now they've given the tournament committee good reason to doubt. Tonight's loss was worse than anything the other #1 seed candidates have suffered. New Mexico is a sub .500 team in MWC play, the game was at home, and the margin was significant. If BYU doesn't win the MWC tournament, I think they slide to a 3-seed.

[Richard Berg]

If BYU doesn't win the MWC tournament, I think they slide to a 3-seed.
I'm not ready to assign specific seeds yet, but we can say this: Duke will probably rank above BYU on the S-Curve. I think any of these conditions would be sufficient: Duke sweeps the Heels this weekend; Duke reaches the ACCT finals; or BYU lays another egg.

[juise]

Not that simple. It's super common for people to agree to rules they have no intention of following, knowing (hoping) the consequences are slim to none.

Likewise, there's a big big difference between a school that makes you agree to some nonsense about sex -- a surprisingly large number do -- versus one that actually spies on their students' private lives and kicks them out for noncompliance.

If you've been around Mormon culture (one of my best friends from high school graduated from BYU) and specifically to Provo or "Temple Square," I think it would be pretty obvious that they take their values/rules/code very seriously. Davies is Mormon and I have no doubt that he was aware that violating the code would have consequences. My guess is that either he thought the incident could remain a secret or the rational part of his brain was overridden (most men would not be able to relate, I'm sure ;)).

From what is being reported thus far, I feel like BYU has treated him fairly. I personally share a good chunk of the values in BYU's honor code, but I feel terrible that his indiscretion is gaining so much attention. I hope he is given a chance to play next year and that he bounces back.

[Matches]

Still seems to me like a draconian solution. I get that rules are rules and he knew the score when he chose to attend the school. One violation = off the team, though? That's tough. Wasn't there some way the kid could be disciplined for breaking the rules short of throwing him off the team?

[allenmurray]

From what is being reported thus far, I feel like BYU has treated him fairly. I personally share a good chunk of the values in BYU's honor code,

As do I. But there are other equally important values: forgiveness, a belief that one can make a mistake and still move forward, a belief in people's ability to change. Not to get too theological here, but it seems as though they value law over grace, which is a value I do not share.

[Indoor66]

As do I. But there are other equally important values: forgiveness, a belief that one can make a mistake and still move forward, a belief in people's ability to change. Not to get too theological here, but it seems as though they value law over grace, which is a value I do not share.

Unfortunately or fortunately (as I believe), the rules are applied universally at BYU. In law school you hear an old maxim: Hard cases make bad law. If we all subscribe to the same honor code it applies to us all, equally. That is what BYU and its students subscribed to and that is what they live by. To pick and choose what is enforced and upon whom it is enforced makes a mockery of the system.

[allenmurray]

Unfortunately or fortunately (as I believe), the rules are applied universally at BYU. In law school you hear an old maxim: Hard cases make bad law. If we all subscribe to the same honor code it applies to us all, equally. That is what BYU and its students subscribed to and that is what they live by. To pick and choose what is enforced and upon whom it is enforced makes a mockery of the system.

As I said, my point was theological not legal. The law does not have to make room for forgiveness - generally the church does. If I'm not mistaken BYU considers itself a Christian school.

[cspan37421]

I applaud them for their consistency and willingness to stick to their stated goals and standards even in the face of sports success, the $$ and recognition that goes with it, etc.

But I'd also say that (paraphrasing someone, I forget who) while it's noble to stand for a cause, it's more noble to stand for one that is true (and good). The honor code at BYU strikes me as extreme, in denial of human nature, etc. Without getting into PPB territory, I think living wisely can include moderation in some of their proscribed activities & behaviors.

Having said that, I admire that they're not two-faced about their honor code. It's too a rare thing, and a hard thing, to put honor and publicly-stated values above $$ and prestige. Just ask Dick Baddour.

[Indoor66]

As I said, my point was theological not legal. The law does not have to make room for forgiveness - generally the church does. If I'm not mistaken BYU considers itself a Christian school.

I see a significant difference between forgiveness and overlooking. The two are not mutually inclusive or exclusive. I can be forgiven but I still must accept the consequences of my transgression.

[sdotbarbee]

If you've been around Mormon culture (one of my best friends from high school graduated from BYU) and specifically to Provo or "Temple Square," I think it would be pretty obvious that they take their values/rules/code very seriously. Davies is Mormon and I have no doubt that he was aware that violating the code would have consequences. My guess is that either he thought the incident could remain a secret or the rational part of his brain was overridden (most men would not be able to relate, I'm sure ;)).

From what is being reported thus far, I feel like BYU has treated him fairly. I personally share a good chunk of the values in BYU's honor code, but I feel terrible that his indiscretion is gaining so much attention. I hope he is given a chance to play next year and that he bounces back.

Well I grew up with a best friend that was Mormon and I worked for a Mormon owned company for 12 years and there are no secrets, even the adults that you think you can "trust" if you have a problem tattle tell on you. If someone hears a rumor they will go and tell the Bishop and you will be called in and asked by the Bishop about the rumor and then the punishment is laid down. There is forgiveness but it takes time and you have to earn it. My friend was a Mormon all of his life and at 18 went on his mission and when he return he met a girl and they started dating. A few months into the relationship they had a night where they had sex and they both felt really bad about it and she told one of her "best" friends because she felt really bad about it and she went and told the Bishop. To make a long story short they were called to meet with the Bishop and were kicked out of the church(which means he didn't hold the priesthood or could they go to the temple) they could still attend services but couldn't hold a higher calling. To make things "right" they got married and after a year of doing everything the church asked them to do they were allowed back in. Keep in mind these were adults, he was 26 and she was 31.

[DallasDevil]

Interesting from many standpoints

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/03/03/brandon-davies-dismissed-sex-girlfriend-byu_n_830646.html

You gotta admire BYU for honoring its principles.

Wonder how this will affect recruiting?

SoCal

I doubt very much. As has been stated, all recruits know the rules before the sign up. In addition, this isn't even close to being the first time something like this has happened to a football or basketball player at BYU. It's just been the incident that's gained the most attention nationally due to the success they've had so far this season and his importance to the team.


Still seems to me like a draconian solution. I get that rules are rules and he knew the score when he chose to attend the school. One violation = off the team, though? That's tough. Wasn't there some way the kid could be disciplined for breaking the rules short of throwing him off the team?

Keep in mind that so far he's only been suspended for the remainder of the year. In the past, athletes have typically been given the opportunity to return the following year. As far as some other form of discipline, in BYU's eyes, other than a felony, there is no more serious violation he could have committed. They probably also want to avoid creating a double standard for athletes. If any average student had done the same thing, they would have at least been suspended from classes for the remainder of the semester.


As do I. But there are other equally important values: forgiveness, a belief that one can make a mistake and still move forward, a belief in people's ability to change. Not to get too theological here, but it seems as though they value law over grace, which is a value I do not share.

I wouldn't go as far to say that BYU doesn't believe in forgiveness or that people have the ability to change, in fact exactly the opposite is taught at the school. They do, however, believe that part of the process to move forward and change is to acknowledge that there are consequences to our actions. Davies, it seems, is not complaining about this. Andy Katz reported, "Davies admitted to making the mistake but knew that as hard as it is for the program, he had to live up to the consequences of breaking the code." Tough break for Davies, but you have to admire his willingness to voluntarily admit breaking the honor code knowing that he wouldn't be able to finish the season.

[Vincetaylor]

As do I. But there are other equally important values: forgiveness, a belief that one can make a mistake and still move forward, a belief in people's ability to change. Not to get too theological here, but it seems as though they value law over grace, which is a value I do not share.

At least they didn't stone him...

[Matches]

Keep in mind that so far he's only been suspended for the remainder of the year. In the past, athletes have typically been given the opportunity to return the following year. As far as some other form of discipline, in BYU's eyes, other than a felony, there is no more serious violation he could have committed. They probably also want to avoid creating a double standard for athletes. If any average student had done the same thing, they would have at least been suspended from classes for the remainder of the semester.


I'm trying very hard to respect their position on this. I dated two Mormon girls in my younger days - one who was very devout and one who was less so - so I do have some familiarity with the code of conduct they're supposed to live by. BYU is a private university, so they're certainly free to set whatever rules they want.

They really look very out of touch with.. pretty much everyone who isn't them, though.

[duke4ever19]

Well I grew up with a best friend that was Mormon and I worked for a Mormon owned company for 12 years and there are no secrets, even the adults that you think you can "trust" if you have a problem tattle tell on you. If someone hears a rumor they will go and tell the Bishop and you will be called in and asked by the Bishop about the rumor and then the punishment is laid down. There is forgiveness but it takes time and you have to earn it. My friend was a Mormon all of his life and at 18 went on his mission and when he return he met a girl and they started dating. A few months into the relationship they had a night where they had sex and they both felt really bad about it and she told one of her "best" friends because she felt really bad about it and she went and told the Bishop. To make a long story short they were called to meet with the Bishop and were kicked out of the church(which means he didn't hold the priesthood or could they go to the temple) they could still attend services but couldn't hold a higher calling. To make things "right" they got married and after a year of doing everything the church asked them to do they were allowed back in. Keep in mind these were adults, he was 26 and she was 31.

This hits close to home for me because I grew up in this religion and it was very hard to leave because of the absolute mental and emotional power that is held over the members by those in authority. Growing up, I was very aware that we were thought of as cult members and I have to say that those people were right.

Any church organization that encourages its members to "tattle" on each other is not healthy and only creates an environment of fear and mistrust, and gives all the power to the people at the top, who usually have no one to "tattle" on them if they break the rules. I know this kid broke the rules, but I can very much sympathize with him. Like a previous poster said, forgiveness and second chances are rare in mormonism... at least legitimate mormonism.

I'm not saying that other "mainstream" religions can't turn cultish if they people in power have too much unchecked power, but it's much easier to leave those churches without severe emotional trauma than leaving mormonism. Westboro "Baptist" is a prime example. They can call themselves baptist, but they are a cult and thats all there is to it.

[PADukeMom]

WOW!!! Well this was an act between 2 consenting adults so one is left to wonder who told on who first.
I don't really know much about the Morman religion but I was raised Catholic so it's close enough.
I don't know...while BYU & I am supposing the Mormon Church is coming down on this kid harshly this is also the same church that turns the other eye to Sister Wives??? I'm just sayin.

[Matches]

I don't really know much about the Morman religion but I was raised Catholic so it's close enough.


It's really not that close at all. Guilt is a big part of the Catholic makeup, but the Mormon religion is another thing entirely. The Mormon faith is based on The Book of Mormon, which goes right alongside the Old and New Testaments in their eyes. It's as significant a difference IMO as the difference between Judaism and Christianity.


I don't know...while BYU & I am supposing the Mormon Church is coming down on this kid harshly this is also the same church that turns the other eye to Sister Wives??? I'm just sayin.

LOL. Sportspickle.com has a funny spoof article up this morning making essentially the same point.

[rthomas]

sex or basketball? sex or basketball? sex or basketball? I'm pretty sure there would be no NCAA Tournament if college basketball players had to choose one or the other.

It IS 2011 and it wasn't any different in 1973.

[Bluedog]

The reason he couldn't keep it a secret was because his girlfriend is supposedly pregnant. If he had sex and just used birth control, nobody would have known. I'm sure there are a few others at BYU that have sex and get away with it. Obviously, if he just drank coffee they wouldn't have kicked him off the team, but having a child before marriage is pretty high up on the list of honor code violations. It's a serious offense (according to BYU, not the general population) and most students at BYU would be kicked out, so it seems like they're following typical protocol.

I applaud BYU for sticking with their honor and standards (unlike most schools who make huge exceptions for athletes) even if I don't personally agree with all aspects of their honor code. I certainly empathize with Davies but don't feel that much worse than I would with any other athlete who violates team rules. While the team rules at BYU are certainly harsher and have additional clauses, if you don't want to follow them or like those rules, then don't go to BYU. Nobody is forcing you. Davies also had offers from Cal, Arizona, Gonzaga, and Utah State and could have gone to one of those places if he thought the rules were too draconian and he couldn't follow them. Although I'm sure he was pressured to attend BYU by family (he's Mormon, right?), so I guess it's possible there wasn't much of a choice. I'm sure Davies is heartbroken and do I hope he is able to return to BYU next season to contribute to the team.

It definitely hurts BYU but I don't think last night's game was necessarily a result of them simply missing Davies on the court; but perhaps the off-the-court distractions of the situation got to them. I mean, BYU lost to New Mexico earlier in the season when they had Davies on the court as well. So, while they're probably a worse team, are they that much worse as they showed last night? I don't think so. This definitely opens the door for us to snatch a #1 seed.

[sdotbarbee]

This hits close to home for me because I grew up in this religion and it was very hard to leave because of the absolute mental and emotional power that is held over the members by those in authority. Growing up, I was very aware that we were thought of as cult members and I have to say that those people were right.

Any church organization that encourages its members to "tattle" on each other is not healthy and only creates an environment of fear and mistrust, and gives all the power to the people at the top, who usually have no one to "tattle" on them if they break the rules. I know this kid broke the rules, but I can very much sympathize with him. Like a previous poster said, forgiveness and second chances are rare in mormonism... at least legitimate mormonism.

I'm not saying that other "mainstream" religions can't turn cultish if they people in power have too much unchecked power, but it's much easier to leave those churches without severe emotional trauma than leaving mormonism. Westboro "Baptist" is a prime example. They can call themselves baptist, but they are a cult and thats all there is to it.

Yeah it starts young and then when seminary starts you get deeper involved and there is more emotional power they have over you. From someone that was on the outside looking in, I didn't trust any of the people at the church and I would go there every Wednesday night to play basketball with my friend and co-workers. It was sad because the young men and women were fake because they knew their "friends" at church weren't really there friends they were all just looking for gossip that they could run and tell somebody else. I know how difficult it must have been for you to leave, I mean my friend married someone that he only knew for about 4 months because they made a mistake one night and had sex and they needed to make it "right" in the churches eyes so they would be allowed back in. It made me sad because I know that they didn't get married out of love it was an obligation to appease the church and bring less shame on both of their families.

[sdotbarbee]

WOW!!! Well this was an act between 2 consenting adults so one is left to wonder who told on who first.
I don't really know much about the Morman religion but I was raised Catholic so it's close enough.
I don't know...while BYU & I am supposing the Mormon Church is coming down on this kid harshly this is also the same church that turns the other eye to Sister Wives??? I'm just sayin.

Yeah not really close at all. I don't think you can become a God of your own planet in Catholicism.:)

[pfrduke]

People, please try to stay away from public policy territory here. Comments about this particular situation and the University's decision are fair game, but please stay away from broader comments about the Mormon religion generally (favorable, disfavorable, neutral comments alike). This is a basketball board.

[sdotbarbee]

People, please try to stay away from public policy territory here. Comments about this particular situation and the University's decision are fair game, but please stay away from broader comments about the Mormon religion generally (favorable, disfavorable, neutral comments alike). This is a basketball board.

My bad, I will stay on topic!

[jv001]

This hits close to home for me because I grew up in this religion and it was very hard to leave because of the absolute mental and emotional power that is held over the members by those in authority. Growing up, I was very aware that we were thought of as cult members and I have to say that those people were right.

Any church organization that encourages its members to "tattle" on each other is not healthy and only creates an environment of fear and mistrust, and gives all the power to the people at the top, who usually have no one to "tattle" on them if they break the rules. I know this kid broke the rules, but I can very much sympathize with him. Like a previous poster said, forgiveness and second chances are rare in mormonism... at least legitimate mormonism.

I'm not saying that other "mainstream" religions can't turn cultish if they people in power have too much unchecked power, but it's much easier to leave those churches without severe emotional trauma than leaving mormonism. Westboro "Baptist" is a prime example. They can call themselves baptist, but they are a cult and thats all there is to it.

It seems we are treading on dangerous ground in discussing Mormon religion and other religions. I know nothing about Westboro "Baptist", so I guess you have proof they are a cult. But I do know that all Baptist churches are not cults. I belong to one and I know the only thing we do is honor, praise and glorify our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As for the Mormon religion you once being a part of it, know that the difference between the two(Baptist & Mormon) is huge. Go Duke!

[jv001]

People, please try to stay away from public policy territory here. Comments about this particular situation and the University's decision are fair game, but please stay away from broader comments about the Mormon religion generally (favorable, disfavorable, neutral comments alike). This is a basketball board.

but you posted while I was typing and I agree 100%. Go Duke!

[mus074]

BYU, with strict adherence to a very high standard of conduct, is fighting for a one-seed, and last year was given a 3-seed. UConn, with a notoriously lax standard of conduct (applied relative to your ppg), is fighting to remain relevant among college basketball contenders, having lost in the second round of the NIT last year and currently tied for 9th in their conference.

Sometimes, there does seem to be a natural order to things, doesn't there?

[sdotbarbee]

It seems we are treading on dangerous ground in discussing Mormon religion and other religions. I know nothing about Westboro "Baptist", so I guess you have proof they are a cult. But I do know that all Baptist churches are not cults. I belong to one and I know the only thing we do is honor, praise and glorify our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. As for the Mormon religion you once being a part of it, know that the difference between the two(Baptist & Mormon) is huge. Go Duke!

Hang on there, I think the poster was trying to say that Westboro calls themselves a "baptist" church but they don't necessarily act like one. Westboro are the ones that are picketing the soldiers funerals so I don't think you would really want to claim them as being "baptist" but I could be wrong. I wonder if Liberty, which is a "baptist" school, would have kicked a player off the team for the same infraction? If anybody went there please elighten me about their code of conduct and is it as strict as BYU's.

[gus]

WOW!!! Well this was an act between 2 consenting adults so one is left to wonder who told on who first.
I don't really know much about the Morman religion but I was raised Catholic so it's close enough.
I don't know...while BYU & I am supposing the Mormon Church is coming down on this kid harshly this is also the same church that turns the other eye to Sister Wives??? I'm just sayin.

I have no interest in defending or attacking any particular religion, nor do I want to steer a bball conversation into a "Public Policy" discussion, but I feel someone needs to point out the error in your post.

I'm not sure if you're referring to the reality tv show, or polygamy in general, but neither has anything to do with the Church of Latter Day Saints (the church BYU is affiliated with). LDS does not allow polygamy and has not for over 120 years.

Personally, I'm happy to see a university value its honor code and morals above the fortunes of its basketball team. And I'm also happy I didn't go to BYU.

[PADukeMom]

Yeah not really close at all. I don't think you can become a God of your own planet in Catholicism.:)

Oh Lord...have you met my 86 year old Mom???;) She would tell the Pope he wasn't praying enough.
I also applaud BYU for sticking by their team policy. Team rules are team rules. I would expect K would do the same thing. I was raised in an enviorment where sex before marraige would have gotten me put into a convent.
I raised my sons differently. I preached safe sex from the time they were old enough to understand what sex was.

[rthomas]

I would've been kicked off of my Kindergarten team.

[rsvman]

Yeah it starts young and then when seminary starts you get deeper involved and there is more emotional power they have over you. From someone that was on the outside looking in, I didn't trust any of the people at the church and I would go there every Wednesday night to play basketball with my friend and co-workers. It was sad because the young men and women were fake because they knew their "friends" at church weren't really there friends they were all just looking for gossip that they could run and tell somebody else. I know how difficult it must have been for you to leave, I mean my friend married someone that he only knew for about 4 months because they made a mistake one night and had sex and they needed to make it "right" in the churches eyes so they would be allowed back in. It made me sad because I know that they didn't get married out of love it was an obligation to appease the church and bring less shame on both of their families.

Alright, already. Probably enough of the Mormon bashing, don't you think? Since you are not a Mormon and were never a Mormon, I don't think we should really trust you as an authority on all things Mormon.

Specifically, your perception that the friends weren't really friends goes beyond speculation. Why don't we let people decide for themselves who their friends are? I think most people are capable of doing that, and don't really require your assistance. Secondly, this idea about people "spying" on others so they can "tattle-tale" on them has no basis in any global fact, as far as I can tell.

As for the Brandon Davies situation, I can tell you three things: 1) The Mormon Church considers fornication to be one of the most serious sins. Therefore, they are strict about their responses to fornication, whether it is Brandon Davies or just some regular Joe you've never heard of. 2) They look upon members of their basketball team as representatives of the university. Therefore, in contrast to other schools in which the basketball team members are probably approached with more leniency, the opposite would be true for BYU. If you are a de facto representative (the "face of the university," as it were) you are held, if anything, more strictly to whatever standard they have established. Anything else reflects poorly on the institution. 3) BYU takes its standards very seriously, and they do not believe that winning basketball games is more important than their standards. For another well known example, they will not play basketball games on Sunday. The NCAA has been kind enough to always schedule BYU to the Thursday/Saturday early games, rather than the Friday/Sunday games. If, however, the NCAA were to schedule BYU to play on Friday/Sunday, I have no doubt in my mind that BYU would choose to forfeit the Sunday game.

Stupid? Maybe. Irrational? Certainly so from most people's perspectives.

At the same time it's kind of hard to take a school to task when their only crime is to take their OWN moral code seriously, as if it is ACTUALLY important to them. We have so many examples of the opposite behavior; i.e., rules or standards being established and then, when somebody important breaks them, we find out that the rules don't apply to them. To me it's kind of refreshing that the institution chooses to believe its own values, whether we agree with them or not.

[jv001]

Hang on there, I think the poster was trying to say that Westboro calls themselves a "baptist" church but they don't necessarily act like one. Westboro are the ones that are picketing the soldiers funerals so I don't think you would really want to claim them as being "baptist" but I could be wrong. I wonder if Liberty, which is a "baptist" school, would have kicked a player off the team for the same infraction? If anybody went there please elighten me about their code of conduct and is it as strict as BYU's.

I did not know Westboro was the church that was picketing the soliders funerals. And no I wouldn't claim them as Baptist. I don't think Liberty would have kicked a player off their team for the same infraction. But I'm not a member of Liberty Baptist Church so I don't know what their code of conduct for sports teams is. Go Duke!

[sdotbarbee]

Alright, already. Probably enough of the Mormon bashing, don't you think? Since you are not a Mormon and were never a Mormon, I don't think we should really trust you as an authority on all things Mormon.

Specifically, your perception that the friends weren't really friends goes beyond speculation. Why don't we let people decide for themselves who their friends are? I think most people are capable of doing that, and don't really require your assistance. Secondly, this idea about people "spying" on others so they can "tattle-tale" on them has no basis in any global fact, as far as I can tell. As for the Brandon Davies situation, I can tell you three things: 1) The Mormon Church considers fornication to be one of the most serious sins. Therefore, they are strict about their responses to fornication, whether it is Brandon Davies or just some regular Joe you've never heard of. 2) They look upon members of their basketball team as representatives of the university. Therefore, in contrast to other schools in which the basketball team members are probably approached with more leniency, the opposite would be true for BYU. If you are a de facto representative (the "face of the university," as it were) you are held, if anything, more strictly to whatever standard they have established. Anything else reflects poorly on the institution. 3) BYU takes its standards very seriously, and they do not believe that winning basketball games is more important than their standards. For another well known example, they will not play basketball games on Sunday. The NCAA has been kind enough to always schedule BYU to the Thursday/Saturday early games, rather than the Friday/Sunday games. If, however, the NCAA were to schedule BYU to play on Friday/Sunday, I have no doubt in my mind that BYU would choose to forfeit the Sunday game.

Stupid? Maybe. Irrational? Certainly so from most people's perspectives.

At the same time it's kind of hard to take a school to task when their only crime is to take their OWN moral code seriously, as if it is ACTUALLY important to them. We have so many examples of the opposite behavior; i.e., rules or standards being established and then, when somebody important breaks them, we find out that the rules don't apply to them. To me it's kind of refreshing that the institution chooses to believe its own values, whether we agree with them or not.

You don't have to trust me, I was simply giving my opinion of what I grew up around and worked for for 12 years. It also lead me to major in religious studies so I actually know more about their religion then some missionaries.

As far as the "tattle telling" goes ask duke4ever19, they were raised Mormon. I grew up with a lot of Mormons so I can tell you it is not my speculation about the perception of who is really your friend and who is not. Just because I was not a Mormon I still hung out with these people and went to Sacrament and priesthood classes so I saw the friendship dynamic.

[4decadedukie]

I want to thank the earlier participants in this thread for their outstanding -- and in some cases extremely knowledgeable -- posts. I have followed this unfolding BYU situation with considerable interest, since I have many close LDS friends that I greatly respect.

To me, the fundamental question is not whether BYU's "religious honor code" (that is separate from, but complements, the academic honor code) is reasonable to most of us. Rather, it is undeniable fact that BYU students voluntarily subscribe to those rules; were these strictures overly onerous (as most Americans would find them to be), potential and current BYU students could -- and should -- opt to attend college elsewhere. In essence, having committed themselves to these principles, they are obligated to adhere to them or to matriculate at another university with differing ethics.

At least one poster suggested that such “rules are made to be ignored.” I find that both morally duplicitous and likely inaccurate (given the LDS church’s pervasiveness).

No one compels an individual to attend BYU, even with the church’s encompassing and extensive scope. Undergraduates are legally adults and can elect alternate educational/life plans, notwithstanding financial, family, community, religious and other constraints. This is especially true for a gifted student-athlete, who doubtless could have received a scholarship at dozens of other excellent universities.

[-jk]

This one's gone too far into public policy range.

If you want to discuss BYU's basketball prospects, please do in the bracketology thread.

-jk