NCAA slaps down Calipari

[Olympic Fan]

Funny story ...

Kentucky celebrated John Calipari's 500th coaching victory the other night.

One problem -- he doesn't have 500 victories.

An NCAA spokesman pointed out that he had 38 wins vacated at Memphis and another four wins vacated at UMass, meaning that according to the NCAA, he has 458 wins, not 500.

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/03/01/1652884/official-records-have-calipari.html

PS A stray thought ... If Memphis' 38 wins from 2008 are vacated, doesn't that mean that Duke still shares the record for most wins in a season at 37?

[killerleft]

That's hilarious!

Kentucky folks are probably shrugging their shoulders, looking confused, and trying to figure out what in the heck the NCAA means by such a statement.

[Faustus]

Not to hijack this thread, but on a related subject (UK and scummy activities at multiple schools), was anyone else taken aback yesterday to see Eddie Sutton admitted into the Basketball Hall of Fame? Did I see that correctly? Wasn't he essentially banned from coaching in the NCAAs? This is Fame? Sadly, I can see Calipari "inducted" as well down the road, although it looks like he'll need a few more wins than his current fine institution evidently thinks...

[WVDUKEFAN]

Finally, some good news.

[dukelifer]

Funny story ...

Kentucky celebrated John Calipari's 500th coaching victory the other night.

One problem -- he doesn't have 500 victories.

An NCAA spokesman pointed out that he had 38 wins vacated at Memphis and another four wins vacated at UMass, meaning that according to the NCAA, he has 458 wins, not 500.

http://www.kentucky.com/2011/03/01/1652884/official-records-have-calipari.html

PS A stray thought ... If Memphis' 38 wins from 2008 are vacated, doesn't that mean that Duke still shares the record for most wins in a season at 37?

The problem is that there is not a conservation of wins and losses since the teams they play do not get their wins or losses vacated. Also if all wins/games are vacated- did Derrick Rose ever play NCAA basketball or should he be viewed as someone who jumped to the NBA from high school. Lots to ponder.

[Sixthman]

Not to hijack this thread, but on a related subject (UK and scummy activities at multiple schools), was anyone else taken aback yesterday to see Eddie Sutton admitted into the Basketball Hall of Fame? Did I see that correctly? Wasn't he essentially banned from coaching in the NCAAs? This is Fame? Sadly, I can see Calipari "inducted" as well down the road, although it looks like he'll need a few more wins than his current fine institution evidently thinks...

Sutton and his program were clearly dirty at Kentucky. However, he was not banned from coaching. His assistant coach (Duane (sp?) Casey, I think), was given a five-year show cause penalty that left him out of coaching in the NCAA. Who knows if this was justice. Sutton fairly painlessly moved to Oklahoma State after sitting out a year or two. It is arguable that Sutton's body of work before Kentucky and after Kentucky would both justify an invitation to the Hall of Fame. He is the only coach to take four different schools to the NCAA tournament. In 12 out of 16 years at Oklahoma State, Sutton's team advanced past the first round of the NCAA tournament. His team advanced to the final four twice in this period. In 9 of 11 years his Arkansas teams qualified for the NCAA tournament, also advancing once to the final four. He has 800 major college coaching wins.

[Chitowndevil]

It's about time. Look, I'm no fan of the NCAA. Their rules are often nebulous, enforcement haphazard, and penalties arbitrary.

But I have always found it grossly unfair that neither Memphis nor UMass get to hang banners, and their players at best have asterisks beside their names in the record books, but we still call Jon Calipari a "Final Four Coach". Regardless of whether you agree with the NCAA, if the institution and players don't get recognition, the coach shoudn't either.

[SCMatt33]

Not to hijack this thread, but on a related subject (UK and scummy activities at multiple schools), was anyone else taken aback yesterday to see Eddie Sutton admitted into the Basketball Hall of Fame? Did I see that correctly? Wasn't he essentially banned from coaching in the NCAAs? This is Fame? Sadly, I can see Calipari "inducted" as well down the road, although it looks like he'll need a few more wins than his current fine institution evidently thinks...

First, it is important to note to those that may have missed the news that Sutton will be inducted into the College Basketball Hall of Fame, and not the Naismith hall of fame. Given that his greatest accomplishments occurred away from Kentucky, I don't have a problem with it. If you stack his resume up against the guys in the Naismith Hall of Fame (which is for all of basketball), his record doesn't cut it, scandal or not. I also never liked how he came back for just one year to San Francisco just to get 800 wins. If he couldn't get rid of the coaching bug and wanted to build something after his time was done at a higher level a la Bobby Cremins, I would be all for it. Sutton, though, coached just until he got his own personal wins mark and left.

That being said, he is one of only 6 coaches to go to at least three Final Fours with at least two different programs, and did have a long and successful career, so there are things to honor.

As for Calipari, this is kind of small potatoes. I'm still waiting for something to affect his future and not his past.

[Scoring Point]

Sutton and his program were clearly dirty at Kentucky. However, he was not banned from coaching. His assistant coach (Duane (sp?) Casey, I think), was given a five-year show cause penalty that left him out of coaching in the NCAA. Who knows if this was justice. Sutton fairly painlessly moved to Oklahoma State after sitting out a year or two. It is arguable that Sutton's body of work before Kentucky and after Kentucky would both justify an invitation to the Hall of Fame. He is the only coach to take four different schools to the NCAA tournament. In 12 out of 16 years at Oklahoma State, Sutton's team advanced past the first round of the NCAA tournament. His team advanced to the final four twice in this period. In 9 of 11 years his Arkansas teams qualified for the NCAA tournament, also advancing once to the final four. He has 800 major college coaching wins.

Nice post. Despite the stain from his Kentucky years and unfortunate finish to his tenure at OSU, Sutton was pretty highly respected by his peers and throughout basketball circles, especially as an Xs and Os guy. I will always have a soft spot for him because his 1978 Arkansas squad was one of my favorite college hoops teams of all-time, featuring the "3 Bucketeers" - Sidney Moncrief, Ron Brewer (father of the Chicago Bull of the same name) and Marvin Delph - and a flashy backup guard named Ulysses S ("US") Reed. A year later, minus Brewer and Delph but still led by the criminally underrated Moncrief, they lost to Larry Bird and Indiana State on a buzzer beater in the Midwest Regional Finals.

[JasonEvans]

Just so I understand, if the party line that Sutton only cheated once (an envelope full of money-- that's about as bad as it gets)...

...or is it that he only got caught once?

I just want to make sure I understand ;)

--Jason "I know, Sutton knew nothing about the envelope... yeah, right" Evans

[allenmurray]

Sutton and his program were clearly dirty at Kentucky. However, he was not banned from coaching. His assistant coach (Duane (sp?) Casey, I think), was given a five-year show cause penalty that left him out of coaching in the NCAA. Who knows if this was justice. Sutton fairly painlessly moved to Oklahoma State after sitting out a year or two. It is arguable that Sutton's body of work before Kentucky and after Kentucky would both justify an invitation to the Hall of Fame. He is the only coach to take four different schools to the NCAA tournament. In 12 out of 16 years at Oklahoma State, Sutton's team advanced past the first round of the NCAA tournament. His team advanced to the final four twice in this period. In 9 of 11 years his Arkansas teams qualified for the NCAA tournament, also advancing once to the final four. He has 800 major college coaching wins.

Lefty Driesell took four teams to the NCAA tournament (Davidson, Maryland, James Madison, Georgia State).

[uh_no]

Lefty Driesell took four teams to the NCAA tournament (Davidson, Maryland, James Madison, Georgia State).

BY the time he's done, Calipari could very well have vacated 4 teams OUT of the NCAA tournament :P

[Sixthman]

Just so I understand, if the party line that Sutton only cheated once (an envelope full of money-- that's about as bad as it gets)...

...or is it that he only got caught once?

I just want to make sure I understand ;)

--Jason "I know, Sutton knew nothing about the envelope... yeah, right" Evans

Since you asked, the "party line" is that we pretend that John Wooden, who ran a filthy program, was a saint. Wooden is one of the baseline standards in college basketball. We hardly talk about the cheating at UCLA under his watch. We pretend that Wooden didn't know about the actions of Sam Gilbert and not only consider him a hall of fame coach, but he is commonly considered a man of high character and teacher of the highest order. This is because he had redeeming features -- big ones -- to which we choose to give great weight. Nothing Eddie Sutton or his assistants did at Kentucky is any worse than the stuff Gilbert was doing for UCLA. Indeed, if you listen to the regard with which Sutton is held by his players at Arkansas and Oklahoma State, it sounds a lot like the feelings players from Wooden era at UCLA express about their coach. Eddie Sutton is no John Wooden, but the "party line" suggests we look at the body of his work, his accomplishments within the sport and the difference he made in the lives of his players -- and overlook his transgressions. It's the standard we've been following for a long time.

[SCMatt33]

Just so I understand, if the party line that Sutton only cheated once (an envelope full of money-- that's about as bad as it gets)...

...or is it that he only got caught once?

I just want to make sure I understand ;)

--Jason "I know, Sutton knew nothing about the envelope... yeah, right" Evans

I had always thought that the stuff that happened at UK was more about the program in general, and less about Sutton. As far as I know, there were never any accusations of violations (even unsubstantiated ones) during his time at Arkansas or Ok St. The stuff at UK had been going on since well before Sutton arrived. According to the official report (https://web1.ncaa.org/LSDBi/exec/miSearch?miSearchSubmit=publicReport&key=72&publicTerms=THIS%20PHRASE%20WILL%20NOT%20BE%20REPE ATED), the original investigation was prompted by a 1985 newspaper article which accused the school of violations. Sutton had only been on the job for a few months at that point, and had yet to coach a game. Did he do things right at UK, of coarse not, but I have to imagine it would be hard to walk into UK, see that they're already paying guys, and then tell them to stop before you have even established yourself there.

Even if you take away everything he did at UK, it doesn't really change his case for HoF credentials all that much.

[Olympic Fan]

Just to be clear -- when the NCAA vacates games, those games DO disappear from a coach's record. This came up when the NCAA penalized Florida State in football -- Bobby Bowden lost a number of victories and essentially fell out of the race with Paterno for the all-time winningest coach.

The story linked in the original post quotes Gary Johnson of the NCAA (he's the head of their statistics and publications bureau) as saying that Calipari has just 458 wins (459 after tonight's victory over Vandy). That's the way the NCAA sees it.

So, he does NOT have a Final Four appearance on his record, since both his apparent FF appearances were vacated.

[uh_no]

So, he does NOT have a Final Four appearance on his record, since both his apparent FF appearances were vacated.

UNC still keeps the banners up from john calipari's final 4s though....claiming to be the only school to display final fours from 6 different programs!