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moonpie23
02-27-2011, 10:05 PM
knicks holding their own....9:41 left in 4th.....miami-72, knicks 69

man i love hubie


did i mention that dwade was a freak?

Acymetric
02-27-2011, 10:44 PM
Wow. I find it hard to believe that Lebron is the best guy for that shot at the end. However "clutch" he is, there are better shooters on that team.

That said, I was pulling for the Knicks both because of Shelden (even though he isn't really in the rotation) and because I've been pulling against Lebron most of his career. Awesome game to watch regardless of whether you cared who won...and some impressive defense from Carmelo at times (something that I recall has been a knock on him in the past).

dukelifer
02-27-2011, 10:47 PM
Wow. I find it hard to believe that Lebron is the best guy for that shot at the end. However "clutch" he is, there are better shooters on that team.

That said, I was pulling for the Knicks both because of Shelden (even though he isn't really in the rotation) and because I've been pulling against Lebron most of his career. Awesome game to watch regardless of whether you cared who won...and some impressive defense from Carmelo at times (something that I recall has been a knock on him in the past).

Lebron is a Lebron but he has yet to show himself to be a clutch player. He is no Jordan or Kobe when it comes to making shots when it counts.

theAlaskanBear
02-28-2011, 09:06 AM
Lebron is a Lebron but he has yet to show himself to be a clutch player. He is no Jordan or Kobe when it comes to making shots when it counts.

Ahh, trotting out the same tired argument even though its been proven untrue. Part of our perception of "clutch" is much more dependent on Sportscenter than on reality. In the last 3-4 years in his time with the Cleveland Cavs, LeBron was the BEST/most "clutch" player in the league. How he'll play going forward is anyones guess, but to say he is not as good as Kobe is patently false. He shoots better percentages in clutch time, has more points, more assists, and more rebounds. Example: last season Bron outscored Kobe 66.1 to 51.2 per 48minutes of clutch time.

visit 82games.com

hq2
02-28-2011, 10:43 AM
Yes, but the Heat still lost. This is a "stand up and take notice" game. Folks, the Knicks are for real now. They will have to be taken seriously in the playoffs.

Cameron
02-28-2011, 12:40 PM
For a second, I thought it was 1997. I half expected to open this thread and find a conversation about Charlie Ward and P.J. Brown.

Those were the days. The NBA will never again see a rivalry built on such animosity and hatred. The bad blood in that series, it was real. Because of the interconnected parties involved, I think it may have surpassed even Detroit-Boston or Detroit-Chicago. "The Hatfields and the McCoys," as former Miami Heat center Alonzo Mourning once described the New York-Miami feud.

This has pretty much nothing to do with what is being discussed here, though, so I'll shut up. Glad to see New York is back doing well. That's good for the NBA, I suppose.

theAlaskanBear
02-28-2011, 01:22 PM
For a second, I thought it was 1997. I half expected to open this thread and find a conversation about Charlie Ward and P.J. Brown.

Those were the days. The NBA will never again see a rivalry built on such animosity and hatred. The bad blood in that series, it was real. Because of the interconnected parties involved, I think it may have surpassed even Detroit-Boston or Detroit-Chicago. "The Hatfields and the McCoys," as former Miami Heat center Alonzo Mourning once described the New York-Miami feud.

This has pretty much nothing to do with what is being discussed here, though, so I'll shut up. Glad to see New York is back doing well. That's good for the NBA, I suppose.

Yes, it is always good to see moribund franchises ressurected. You have good NBA teams in all the major east conference markets -- Donald Stern must be thrilled. Boston, New York, Chicago, Miami, Orlando. Atlanta is probably the next biggest and they are good not great.

Personally I will find it a lot harder to root for the Knicks with Melo. I like D'Antoni and rooted for them to pull it together, but with Melo and if they add Chris Paul they will turn into a team I will truely love to hate.

hq2
02-28-2011, 04:55 PM
Those were the days. The NBA will never again see a rivalry built on such animosity and hatred. The bad blood in that series, it was real. Because of the interconnected parties involved, I think it may have surpassed even Detroit-Boston or Detroit-Chicago. "The Hatfields and the McCoys," as former Miami Heat center Alonzo Mourning once described the New York-Miami feud.


Hopefully not. I can't remember two nastier teams. Those games were so ugly, I couldn't stand to watch them. That era in the NBA is not missed.

jipops
02-28-2011, 11:28 PM
For a second, I thought it was 1997. I half expected to open this thread and find a conversation about Charlie Ward and P.J. Brown.

Those were the days. The NBA will never again see a rivalry built on such animosity and hatred. The bad blood in that series, it was real. Because of the interconnected parties involved, I think it may have surpassed even Detroit-Boston or Detroit-Chicago. "The Hatfields and the McCoys," as former Miami Heat center Alonzo Mourning once described the New York-Miami feud.

This has pretty much nothing to do with what is being discussed here, though, so I'll shut up. Glad to see New York is back doing well. That's good for the NBA, I suppose.

That series featured some of the worst quality of playoff basketball we have seen. It stunk, I couldn't stand it. I too love the bad blood and rivalries, but the quality of basketball in the NBA was at one of its lows in that mid-90's series.

NovaScotian
03-01-2011, 09:26 AM
That series featured some of the worst quality of playoff basketball we have seen. It stunk, I couldn't stand it. I too love the bad blood and rivalries, but the quality of basketball in the NBA was at one of its lows in that mid-90's series.

i'll allow that it wasn't very good basketball technically, but for anyone who was a fan of either of those teams or simply a fan of bad sports blood in general, that knicks-heat rivalry was truly truly epic. think of all the villians - mourning, tim hardaway, pat riley, and i suppose there are some out there who didnt care for allan houston, pat ewing, larry johnson or anthony mason. think of all the great story lines - riley leaving new york to coach the heat, that hilarious brawl between larry johnson and alonso mourning that ended up with jeff van gundy messing up his combover and holding on to mourning's leg like one of those pencil koalas, and most importantly, the 1999 series when the eighth seeded knicks started their miracle run to the finals by beating the top seeded heat. tremendous history, and one that solidified my knicks fandom.

Starter
03-01-2011, 09:28 AM
It also featured this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oiJJCnrCX3I&feature=related).

This (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6vTU4GMROwA) and this (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qq7pwRLhznA) weren't too shabby either.

The level of play had definitely risen somewhat in terms of elegance and pure skill level by the time the Knicks and Heat started their feud in 1997. I can't blame you for disdaining the rough and tumble style Riley employed during the early to mid 90's. But when the Knicks got Allan Houston and Larry Johnson, and later Latrell Sprewell and Marcus Camby, they kept their grit (Starks, Oakley for a while) but added athleticism and grace to the mix. They weren't quite Cousy and Havlicek, but it wasn't all Mason and Xavier McDaniel either.

The Knicks-Heat games were blood wars, but it was mostly that they plain and simply didn't like each other. Evidence: Van Gundy hanging off Zo's leg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3UDdF43cmo). I thought all four playoff series they played were pretty compelling, especially 1997, when I remember sneaking out to the hotel bar at my senior prom to watch Game 2 with my school's guidance counselor. My date wasn't thrilled. (I am a Knicks fan, so admittedly my opinion here is biased, but I recall those playoff series to be wonderfully competitive and excellent theater.)

Cameron
03-01-2011, 03:02 PM
Think of Heat-Knicks as basketball’s version of the time ice dancing was interrupted by Tonya Harding having Nancy Kerrigan’s kneecap broken with a crowbar.

The rivalry may not have been graceful, but it sure was theater.

New York and Miami met in four straight NBA playoff wars from 1997 to 2000. Four. Never before had two teams interlocked in such an enduring and cutthroat postseason streak and likely never will after. Now 11 years removed from the last Heat-Knicks playoff encounter, the game has yet to see anything like it. Neither Boston-Detroit nor Detroit-Chicago nor New York-Indiana nor Chicago-New York nor Lakers-Blazers ever happened four consecutive seasons. For that reason, Heat-Knicks was unique and something at which to marvel for all-time.

Those annual spring clashes between New York and Miami often times were about as pretty as an Anthony Mason free-throw. And there was constantly the chance that always-composed John Starks could wander onto the floor at any time with a vendetta in one hand and a stabbing tool in the other. (Thankfully, it never came to that for John.) Even Mick Foley, err P.J. Brown, the two-time NBA Citizen of the Year, once flipped Knick guard Charlie Ward upside down in one swift heave before body slamming the former Heisman to the floorboards with the force of wrecking ball. Basketball in its most fundamental form. Most of the time, the games were more Total Nonstop Action Wrestling than National Basketball Association. But there were plenty of clutch three-pointers, spectacular shots and last second hoists at the buzzer -- Knick sharpshooter Allan Houston's pinball jumper at the end of Game Five in the 1999 first round hit every last piece of chipped orange paint before sending the Heat home in only the second eight-over-one seed upset ever. And the drama, oh the drama. It reached directly through your television set and clutched you like a long lost heroin habit.

[I realize that many have stopped reading by this point, wanting to know what my problem is. Others are wondering if my uncle was Chris Dudley or something. I just have time, and I loved this rivalry.]

Pat Riley. The architect behind the most physically intense, vitriol-fueled rivalry in the history of the NBA. A lifetime removed from the West Coast showtime days with the Los Angeles Lakers, Riley infused in New York a hard-nosed, in-your-face attitude, preaching defense first and branding a style of hoops that made our own Chuck Daly proud. A year after leading the Knicks to the pinnacle of the sport, Riley took that menacing, Chuck Daly and Bill Laimbeer-style with him to the sandy beaches of Miami, leaving Manhattan without as much as a "see ya later." He faxed the Knicks his resignation. Enter the Pat Riley verses the city of New York dynamic. His pupil, the scrawny, sad-eyed Jeff Van Gundy, would continue that brash, defensive-oriented mentality as Knicks head coach (and would later end up on the bottom of a bench-clearing brawl holding onto 6'10" Alonzo Mourning's calf muscle). Then you had the Hatfield's and the McCoy's element, intensified with the addition of Larry Johnson to the Knicks in 1997-98. Johnson and his former Charlotte Hornet running-mate, Alonzo Mourning, of course, let loose into fisticuffs in Game Four of the '98 conference semis.

Heat-Knicks. Hitler didn't hate this much. Yes, he did. But this was an extraordinary event each spring in the late '90s. I for one miss it, in addition to other fantastic gems of rivalries from that decade such as Reggie vs. The Garden, Michael vs. The Bad Boys, Knicks-Bulls and the fantastic series that was Pacers and Bulls in the 1998 Eastern Conference Finals. When the NBA had the spirit and emotion of that of basketball on the playgrounds and rural byways of Indiana, Kentucky and North Carolina.

hq2
03-02-2011, 11:35 AM
Now 11 years removed from the last Heat-Knicks playoff encounter, the game has yet to see anything like it.

And speaking on behalf of those of us who love basketball, hopefully never will again. The Knicks-Heat games were the worst extreme of the way thug ball ruined the NBA in the 1990s. They were so ugly, I made a point of not watching them. The only thing that made them tolerable was knowing that it didn't matter who won; the loser would always be mercifully dispatched, either by Michael's Bulls, or another team (San Antonio, Indiana). In the end, they were irrelevant; "sound and fury signifying nothing". We can thank the NBA for eliminating this kind of ugly ball, and giving us back the game we have today, which is, remarkably, almost as good as it was in the late 80s.