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PallasAthena
02-25-2011, 11:26 PM
The students haven't been turning out, so the student ticket allotment has been cut:

http://www.dailytarheel.com/index.php/article/2011/02/unc_basketball_student_ticket_policy_provides_fewe r_tickets_to_students#comment12297

PumpkinFunk
02-25-2011, 11:51 PM
It hasn't been as noticeable, but they're doing it in Cameron, too. The end of the student section next to the band, past the end of press row is being sold off every game, ACC or otherwise, because student attendance has been abysmal, even for ACC games. It just hasn't been as well publicized.

anon
02-26-2011, 12:23 AM
It hasn't been as noticeable, but they're doing it in Cameron, too. The end of the student section next to the band, past the end of press row is being sold off every game, ACC or otherwise, because student attendance has been abysmal, even for ACC games. It just hasn't been as well publicized.

Glad you brought it up. This ENRAGES me! A good fourth or third of the student section, by area, is now reserved for non-students. Students, meanwhile, are forced to cram in to their limited area. It just makes no sense. It's a good thing they put a good team out on the floor each night, because the unabashed monetizing of the Cameron experience (the video board, including the "Fidelity Financial Starting Line-Up" and the "Time Warner First-Half Review") is just sickening.

OK! Had to get that out of my system.

- undergrad

PumpkinFunk
02-26-2011, 12:27 AM
Glad you brought it up. This ENRAGES me! A good fourth or third of the student section, by area, is now reserved for non-students. Students, meanwhile, are forced to cram in to their limited area. It just makes no sense. It's a good thing they put a good team out on the floor each night, because the unabashed monetizing of the Cameron experience (the video board, including the "Fidelity Financial Starting Line-Up" and the "Time Warner First-Half Review") is just sickening.

OK! Had to get that out of my system.

- undergrad

I agree completely. The video board combined with them deciding to constantly blare music through the PA system has really destroyed a lot of the pregame atmosphere that was around my freshmen/sophomore years. The fact is, though, they cram students in there because students weren't showing up to even ACC games, minus Carolina, which is garbage on our end. We haven't done well this year in terms of attendance or atmosphere (I know many people on this board would disagree with me, but you can tell that compared to last year, things are much, much worse, minus the Carolina game and a few others this year)

billyj
02-26-2011, 01:53 AM
It just ain't that exciting when you keep winning and all. Haven't lost for at home for a couple of years is really taking a toll on the poor students. You have to go to the game and just expect to win. Where is the excitement. We need more up and downs like the heels did. :cool:

dukebsbll14
02-26-2011, 02:10 AM
I agree completely. The video board combined with them deciding to constantly blare music through the PA system has really destroyed a lot of the pregame atmosphere that was around my freshmen/sophomore years. The fact is, though, they cram students in there because students weren't showing up to even ACC games, minus Carolina, which is garbage on our end. We haven't done well this year in terms of attendance or atmosphere (I know many people on this board would disagree with me, but you can tell that compared to last year, things are much, much worse, minus the Carolina game and a few others this year)

I HATE music over the PA. How the heck am I supposed to heckle the other team when they drown me out for songs about Dougies? I feel like people don't really understand the role of a Cameron Crazie these days(i.e. you don't show up and stand there blank faced during pre-game, scream "number 1, baby!!" when the camera dude comes on you slash dance to the music, and then not even do anything other than for the first possession of the game!).

And the UNC game. The first half was AWFUL from us. I legit couldn't tell the difference between that game and any other ACC game. I had to scream at the people behind me during halftime to be louder.

The coaching staff does so much for us to make us feel like we are part of the team. We can't be on the court shooting shots, but we can be loud, pick our guys up, and make the other guys lose focus for just a split second so Nolan can drive to the basket or Tyler can get the steal. EVERYDAY. We don't expect our guys to half-*** it on the court, so why should we??

(another sad thing is I know people who have been front row to every game, but don't even know the hand motions to songs like Devil with a Blue Dress or the words to the Alma mater!)

And attendance. I dunno. Too many people worried about carrying 4.0's rather than helping Duke win basketball games...

ricks68
02-26-2011, 02:26 AM
While talking to 2 volunteers working in the museum area prior to the UNC game that are involved with the games, this subject came up. One of the volunteers is also a member of the admissions committee. She stated that the attendance has been off for a while now. Both volunteers were in agreement that the reason was because the make-up of the student body has become more increasingly diverse. As a result, many of the new students the past few years are from backgrounds that are unfamiliar with college basketball.

I decided to delve a little more into this aspect of the problem of decreasing undergrad attendance by questioning some students I met at the bonfire that appeared to me to be underclassmen with Asian ancestry. Of the group of 4 students that I talked to, only one knew a little about basketball prior to arriving at Duke. All four knew nothing about Duke basketball, in particular, before arriving at Duke. None of the 4 attended the UNC game because they did not want to stand in line for any time period, as they said it would take away from time they wanted to use for academic purposes. They, therefore, rarely attended any games, if at all.

I gave these students a brief Duke basketball history going back to the Vic Bubas era, emphasizing the advantages of becoming a member of "the Duke bball club", and how it would enhance their Duke experience. I have no idea if my little history lesson will have any effect on them regarding Duke bball, but they were in the Main Quad during the bonfire, and seemed like very nice kids that are not any different from any of us alums here on the Board-------other than having a cultural background that didn't include enough of an interest in college basketball.

I hope that someone in the Administration involved with the bball program can somehow reach out to these "uneducated" students and show them how beneficial the complete Duke "experience" can be, and the positive effect that it can have on the rest of their lives.

Go Duke!

ricks

dukebsbll14
02-26-2011, 02:32 AM
Funny, I was talking to someone from the class of 2010 about this the other day. He was saying the same thing about admissions going away from accepting "basketball fans" the past few years.

Sounds like Duke needs more students like me who write in their application essays that they want to be tent 1 four straight years! (given my grades this semester I'm starting to think that's why I'm here ahaha)

Duke84
02-26-2011, 03:33 AM
Duke was:

62-57 overall
20-36 Reg season ACC
39-22 Home
17-25 Away
6-10 Neutral

Show up for the games. My peers did, and weren't expecting a win every night.

anon
02-26-2011, 04:00 AM
I agree completely. The video board combined with them deciding to constantly blare music through the PA system has really destroyed a lot of the pregame atmosphere that was around my freshmen/sophomore years. The fact is, though, they cram students in there because students weren't showing up to even ACC games, minus Carolina, which is garbage on our end. We haven't done well this year in terms of attendance or atmosphere (I know many people on this board would disagree with me, but you can tell that compared to last year, things are much, much worse, minus the Carolina game and a few others this year)

It's kind of a chicken-and-the-egg thing though, don't you think? They take away seats in Cameron, so it's harder to get into games, so fewer people try coming next time, etc. I won't speculate as to which came first, but can we please just stop it?


(another sad thing is I know people who have been front row to every game, but don't even know the hand motions to songs like Devil with a Blue Dress or the words to the Alma mater!)

Sorry... but who cares, as long as you root for Duke?


Too many people worried about carrying 4.0's rather than helping Duke win basketball games...

No reason you can't do both :)

anon
02-26-2011, 04:13 AM
Duke was:

62-57 overall
20-36 Reg season ACC
39-22 Home
17-25 Away
6-10 Neutral

Show up for the games. My peers did, and weren't expecting a win every night.

Surely they were giving away free T-shirts each night then!

PumpkinFunk
02-26-2011, 09:49 AM
And the UNC game. The first half was AWFUL from us. I legit couldn't tell the difference between that game and any other ACC game. I had to scream at the people behind me during halftime to be louder.

I'm glad someone on here agrees with me. I remember being totally underwhelmed by the Crazies throughout the game. I saw people in tents 1 and 2 (lots of friends of mine were in tent 2, so I can point them out) trying to start cheers, and, per usual, the Crazies weren't picking them up in the pregame. During the game, it was pretty dead until the 2nd half. It was pretty shameful, and honestly, every game this year has been underwhelming from the Crazies.


(another sad thing is I know people who have been front row to every game, but don't even know the hand motions to songs like Devil with a Blue Dress or the words to the Alma mater!)

No kidding. Then again, most people at Duke don't know the words to the alma mater. I made an effort to learn it (and the fight song words), despite the fact that I never am able to sing it.

Devil in the Blue Dress
02-26-2011, 10:26 AM
While talking to 2 volunteers working in the museum area prior to the UNC game that are involved with the games, this subject came up. One of the volunteers is also a member of the admissions committee. She stated that the attendance has been off for a while now. Both volunteers were in agreement that the reason was because the make-up of the student body has become more increasingly diverse. As a result, many of the new students the past few years are from backgrounds that are unfamiliar with college basketball.

I decided to delve a little more into this aspect of the problem of decreasing undergrad attendance by questioning some students I met at the bonfire that appeared to me to be underclassmen with Asian ancestry. Of the group of 4 students that I talked to, only one knew a little about basketball prior to arriving at Duke. All four knew nothing about Duke basketball, in particular, before arriving at Duke. None of the 4 attended the UNC game because they did not want to stand in line for any time period, as they said it would take away from time they wanted to use for academic purposes. They, therefore, rarely attended any games, if at all.

I gave these students a brief Duke basketball history going back to the Vic Bubas era, emphasizing the advantages of becoming a member of "the Duke bball club", and how it would enhance their Duke experience. I have no idea if my little history lesson will have any effect on them regarding Duke bball, but they were in the Main Quad during the bonfire, and seemed like very nice kids that are not any different from any of us alums here on the Board-------other than having a cultural background that didn't include enough of an interest in college basketball.

I hope that someone in the Administration involved with the bball program can somehow reach out to these "uneducated" students and show them how beneficial the complete Duke "experience" can be, and the positive effect that it can have on the rest of their lives.

Go Duke!

ricks

As you know, there was a time when the undergraduates occupied almost all of the downstairs bleachers. During the Bubas era, we students often didn't fill all the seats, so AD Eddie Cameron authorized selling tickets for $1 each to let other folks fill in the space. (I remember being incensed about this development since we students had paid a fee that covered entry to all athletic events.) Eddie's goal was to fill the stadium and increase support of the program as it developed into a national power.

As I read over the comments regarding current student attendance at basketball games, I'm struck by the similarity to the comments made about low student attendance at our football games.

Mudge
02-26-2011, 11:46 AM
Glad you brought it up. This ENRAGES me! A good fourth or third of the student section, by area, is now reserved for non-students. Students, meanwhile, are forced to cram in to their limited area. It just makes no sense. It's a good thing they put a good team out on the floor each night, because the unabashed monetizing of the Cameron experience (the video board, including the "Fidelity Financial Starting Line-Up" and the "Time Warner First-Half Review") is just sickening.

OK! Had to get that out of my system.

- undergrad

Obviously, you don't understand what's going on-- the seats at the ends are being sold to non-students CLOSE TO GAME START TIME, when it is more than apparent that no students are going to show up and fill those-- and Duke feels like it would be idiotic to leave unfilled seats in some of the closest spots to the floor, when there are all kinds of people dancing around outside, hoping to get a ticket to the game - and willing to pay for it-- while students who could attend for free (WITH NO WAITING) choose not to.

Go to a game, and ask the line monitor at the front by the student entrance how hard it is to get into a game-- he/she will tell you that they've had exactly one game this year (UNC) that students really filled their allotment of spots, plus the Countdown to Craziness (which isn't even a real game). There is no such thing as "having to wait in line to get into a game"-- you, as a student, could have attended any game (except maybe the UNC game) by simply showing up anytime right before game start (or even after it started!), and walking in...

This whole charade is a myth, which hides the hard fact that students (taken as a whole) just aren't as interested in attending games as they once were... so it's not much of a surprise that students don't know (or maybe even care) about learning the cheers, songs, traditions, or even cheering-- the student body has changed, and diehards don't know it or else don't want to admit it.

Mudge
02-26-2011, 11:57 AM
Duke was:

62-57 overall
20-36 Reg season ACC
39-22 Home
17-25 Away
6-10 Neutral

Show up for the games. My peers did, and weren't expecting a win every night.

Actually, students often failed to fill the lower levels of Cameron in the dark days of the early Krzyzewski era (e.g.- years 2 and 3)... I can remember walking into the game which probably marks the nadir of the Krzyzewski administration (the home blow-out loss to Wagner College in 1982-83) mid-way into the first half, and the place was like a mausoleum... there was nobody in the lower level-- of course, Duke didn't have to be embarrassed about that being shown on national television-- nobody was interested in showing Duke on national TV then.

You do remember that there was no tenting, and no waiting on-line to get into games in those days, right?

DST Fan
02-26-2011, 12:32 PM
Obviously, you don't understand what's going on-- the seats at the ends are being sold to non-students CLOSE TO GAME START TIME, when it is more than apparent that no students are going to show up and fill those-- and Duke feels like it would be idiotic to leave unfilled seats in some of the closest spots to the floor, when there are all kinds of people dancing around outside, hoping to get a ticket to the game - and willing to pay for it-- while students who could attend for free (WITH NO WAITING) choose not to.

During the past two months, the Iron Dukes have sent out e-mails 3-4 days before a number of games offering tickets for Section 17 in the corner of the student section. This happened for the MD, BC, Ga Tech and Temple games, and I believe there were a few others during the early part of the season. Before at least one of those games (BC), the student section was not full and people in Section 17 were allowed to move over to center court.

Jderf
02-26-2011, 12:42 PM
See the pocket reference, section 11e (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3217-FAQ-TV-Coverage-Game-Chat-NCAA-Compliance-quot-9F-quot-NBA). The Cameron Crazies have been on the decline for decades! I'm pretty sure nobody even shows up anymore.

The key problem is perception (to steal a line from Sideny Lowe). We only remember Cameron at its peak, at those ultimate nostalgia-inducing moments of thunderous bedlam. Then, we show up for a wednesday night non-conference matchup in the height of midterm season, and we're all sorely disappointed that the crazies don't live up to our ridiculous memories and expectations.

We don't remember the long stretches of silence and pathetic chant attempts from the years when UNC came into Cameron and smacked our faces off. We only remember the 120 decibels from exhilarating comebacks like this year's. I'm guilty of it, too. I always catch myself thinking "freshman year was so much more electric," even though I know it probably isn't true.

That said, I have noticed that there are some non-students in the student section this year. But a 1/4 of the student section? Not even close. The only major drop-off I've been able to objectively notice is the absence of player-name-chants in the pregame. Sad, but not world-altering.

Lets not forget how spoiled we are. Cameron is, has been, and will continue to be the best venue in sports.

Mudge
02-26-2011, 01:11 PM
During the past two months, the Iron Dukes have sent out e-mails 3-4 days before a number of games offering tickets for Section 17 in the corner of the student section. This happened for the MD, BC, Ga Tech and Temple games, and I believe there were a few others during the early part of the season. Before at least one of those games (BC), the student section was not full and people in Section 17 were allowed to move over to center court.

Yup, I was at that game-- and yep, I was one of those who got to move over and sit right at the center court line, two rows behind the PA announcer... and the line monitors made it clear (well before game time) that there were not going to be enough students to come close to filling their allotment for that game... any Duke student who wanted to could have come out 5 seconds before tipoff, walked in, and sat down within a few feet of the playing floor, and watched the highly-ranked Blue Devils in well-contested tilt against league foe which has battled Duke very well since they entered the ACC (and a kindred high-level academic institution, I might add-- every bit as good academically as UNC, or better)... kind of sad really, if you are berserk, psychotic Duke basketball fan...

coldriver10
02-26-2011, 01:14 PM
Honestly, I think the decline in the Crazies (according to some on this board...I was a student last decade and thought we were great, albeit with nothing to compare it to) has a great deal to do with the increased competitiveness of college, graduate/professional schools, and jobs in general. When I was in high school, good extracurriculars in addition to a great GPA were required to get admitted to a school like Duke. Now, it seems like anything short of greatness in several areas isn't good enough to get you in. The admission rates for professional schools have similarly decreased, even from when I was admitted to medical school in 2005-06 to now (I think the admission rate for all med school applicants was 48% back then...it's 43.6 now). I was an interviewer for Duke School of Medicine 2 years ago, and let me tell you...I would not have gotten in now. It seems like every applicant has founded a charity, discovered some protein, or done international mission work. This leaves a heck of a lot less time for waiting in line for hours just to get a bracelet and then for hours again to attend the games.

Camping out and attending Duke basketball games was an essential part of my Duke experience, and I wouldn't have had it any other way. But I can't fault today's students for choosing to study or otherwise boost their application- yet still be able to watch the game on TV- rather than spending hours to attend the games in person. The educational world is different now.

bluepenguin
02-26-2011, 01:38 PM
While talking to 2 volunteers working in the museum area prior to the UNC game that are involved with the games, this subject came up. One of the volunteers is also a member of the admissions committee. She stated that the attendance has been off for a while now. Both volunteers were in agreement that the reason was because the make-up of the student body has become more increasingly diverse. As a result, many of the new students the past few years are from backgrounds that are unfamiliar with college basketball.
First, I don't think 2 volunteers working in the museum area, even if one is a member of the admissions committee are qualified experts into why attendance has been off. But to blame it on a diverse student background without citing any facts to back it up seems a bit silly to use as an argument.
How big is the student population at Duke? About 12K - undergrad and grad? And what percentage of those students are from diverse backgrounds with no knowledge of college basketball? For the sake of argument, lets say it is a whopping 75%. That means 25% of the 12K students, or 4000, are knowledgeable about college basketball. Now, how many seats in Cameron are allocated to students? According to wikipedia, about 1,100. So that means of the students knowledgeable about college basketball only 1/4 of them are needed to fill up the student seats at Cameron.
I don't have actual the statistics, but I challenge someone to come up with them to back up the argument about diversity. I seriously doubt that a diverse student body is keeping students from filling up Cameron.

Channing
02-26-2011, 01:48 PM
It's kind of a chicken-and-the-egg thing though, don't you think? They take away seats in Cameron, so it's harder to get into games, so fewer people try coming next time, etc. I won't speculate as to which came first, but can we please just stop it?



Sorry... but who cares, as long as you root for Duke?



No reason you can't do both :)

(1) I know which came first ... an empty student section.

(2) Being a fan and cheering is all well and good ... but to be a Cameron Crazy you have to ... you know ... be a Cameron Crazy, and that means being part of the unified front that is the 6th man.

(3) Totally agree. I may not have graduated with a 4.0, but I never missed a single game, tented every year, graduated, got into graduate school, and got a terrific job (thanks to some good vibes from the OTB).

cspan37421
02-26-2011, 02:17 PM
This is a joke, right? Is it April 1 yet?

Or is it the case that, as Yogi said, "No one goes there anymore, it's too crowded."

My son would love to go to a Duke home game. We can't even get tickets for them on the road. Are you serious that, if we showed up for a non-UNC home game, and just milled about, there'd be a non-trivial chance that someone might sell us a couple seats in the corners of the student section? Wow. Let me get the schedule out and make some plans.

PallasAthena
02-26-2011, 02:51 PM
In a recent discussion of how much he hates Sunday games, Coach K mentioned declining attendance at games -- not just at Duke but throughout the conference. He said he thought Sunday games, the number of 9 PM games, etc., were contributing to declining attendance.

Andy7207
02-26-2011, 04:23 PM
There is no such thing as "having to wait in line to get into a game"-- you, as a student, could have attended any game (except maybe the UNC game) by simply showing up anytime right before game start (or even after it started!), and walking in...

I had a friend come up 15 minutes before the game started (he had class) and he got turned away because they had already given away the seats. Not necessarily a criticism of the line monitors, but I just want to temper everyone's thoughts on how bad the problem is.

Here is my line of thinking: unless I line up for hours beforehand, I will not get seats that are even between the backboards. In other words, the only seats that students are not filling are on the extreme ends of the court where you will not get a good view of the game. The NFL is facing the same problem -- why pay a lot of money to attend an NFL game, face traffic, pay absurd prices for food, etc. when you can just enjoy the game with instant replays on your couch at home?

anon
02-26-2011, 04:37 PM
Obviously, you don't understand what's going on-- the seats at the ends are being sold to non-students CLOSE TO GAME START TIME, when it is more than apparent that no students are going to show up and fill those-- and Duke feels like it would be idiotic to leave unfilled seats in some of the closest spots to the floor, when there are all kinds of people dancing around outside, hoping to get a ticket to the game - and willing to pay for it-- while students who could attend for free (WITH NO WAITING) choose not to.

As others have said, I don't think this is entirely true: these people have bought tickets to the game ahead of time. Your general point is right. It's just that Duke is making this judgment earlier than right before game time.


Go to a game, and ask the line monitor at the front by the student entrance how hard it is to get into a game-- he/she will tell you that they've had exactly one game this year (UNC) that students really filled their allotment of spots, plus the Countdown to Craziness (which isn't even a real game). There is no such thing as "having to wait in line to get into a game"-- you, as a student, could have attended any game (except maybe the UNC game) by simply showing up anytime right before game start (or even after it started!), and walking in...

That's been their mantra for years. Four years, at least. "You can get into any game you want by walking up at game time, except for the Carolina game." And I don't really see a problem with that.


(1) I know which came first ... an empty student section.

But either way, you must agree that it has become a vicious circle.


(2) Being a fan and cheering is all well and good ... but to be a Cameron Crazy you have to ... you know ... be a Cameron Crazy, and that means being part of the unified front that is the 6th man.

I know I won't see much support on this issue on this board, but my opinion is: if the purpose of the "craziness" is to support the team and encourage them to do well, then as long as you are being enthusiastic during the game, I don't care if you don't know the words and (arbitrary) dance moves that everyone else does. If you do, great! Otherwise, just yell, "let's go, Duke!" and generally be loud and supportive.

Devilsfan
02-26-2011, 04:52 PM
Final answer: Too much Whine not enough enough Cheese.

uh_no
02-26-2011, 04:57 PM
But either way, you must agree that it has become a vicious circle.



I've been here for 4 years, and I don't seem to notice any appreciable difference in attendance. This year we have suffered from a dearth of quality opponents in cameron, which certainly hasn't helped, but I can probably count on one hand the number of games in my 4 years where there wasn't space in the corners....If anything, I think the out of conference games at cameron this year were MORE well attended than in any previous years. (and K noticed) we also suffered due to the maryland game being over break. We had no big weekend game all spring....there just hasn't been any opponents to get pumped up over....we've had MSU and UNC....that's about it...as good an opponent temple was, it's not the georgetown or michigan that students really got hyped up over

anon
02-26-2011, 05:04 PM
I've been here for 4 years, and I don't seem to notice any appreciable difference in attendance. This year we have suffered from a dearth of quality opponents in cameron, which certainly hasn't helped, but I can probably count on one hand the number of games in my 4 years where there wasn't space in the corners....If anything, I think the out of conference games at cameron this year were MORE well attended than in any previous years. (and K noticed) we also suffered due to the maryland game being over break. We had no big weekend game all spring....there just hasn't been any opponents to get pumped up over....we've had MSU and UNC....that's about it...as good an opponent temple was, it's not the georgetown or michigan that students really got hyped up over

Actually, the Maryland game may have contributed to this cycle. In what I'll just chalk up to a simple oversight, the athletic department sold tickets for the bleachers against UMD since, technically, the game was during break. Of course (despite our vicious non-rivalry with the Terps ;) ) plenty of students came back early for that game, and the LMs, to their credit, scrambled to find random places in the lower deck for students to stand once section 17 filled up. (Lucky me—I stood behind the Duke bench!) But I do believe some people were turned away.

Dukeface88
02-26-2011, 05:20 PM
I've been here for 4 years, and I don't seem to notice any appreciable difference in attendance. This year we have suffered from a dearth of quality opponents in cameron, which certainly hasn't helped, but I can probably count on one hand the number of games in my 4 years where there wasn't space in the corners....If anything, I think the out of conference games at cameron this year were MORE well attended than in any previous years. (and K noticed) we also suffered due to the maryland game being over break. We had no big weekend game all spring....there just hasn't been any opponents to get pumped up over....we've had MSU and UNC....that's about it...as good an opponent temple was, it's not the georgetown or michigan that students really got hyped up over

While I can't speak to this year's attendance. I know for certain that we filled Cameron for UNC (obviously), Maryland and Wake, and I think BC and Va. Tech were full as well. That would leave Ga. Tech (which I recall was well attended, but not quite full) and FSU out of home ACC games.

Off hand, I'd guess that games are better attended in seasons when we get the late UNC game, since K-ville is operating. There were also a ton of theme nights last year; are those still happening?

dukebsbll14
02-26-2011, 05:34 PM
While I can't speak to this year's attendance. I know for certain that we filled Cameron for UNC (obviously), Maryland and Wake, and I think BC and Va. Tech were full as well. That would leave Ga. Tech (which I recall was well attended, but not quite full) and FSU out of home ACC games.

Off hand, I'd guess that games are better attended in seasons when we get the late UNC game, since K-ville is operating. There were also a ton of theme nights last year; are those still happening?

Theme nights took place during the non-conference schedule this year. Once it hit Christmas break those were done.

We're post-UNC so I can see how attendance can drop. I know some people who are like, "eh I don't want to go to West tonight...and the game isn't as big as UNC so I'm just not gonna go." I don't agree with that, but I can't do anything about it. Just gotta get me and my friends to be louder. I'd agree with your claim. When you're tenting its so much easier to line for games (especially if you're going for front rows).

And as we hit the end of the year the "freshman dedication" as one senior described to me is appearing to wear off a bit...sniff. I sure hope we pack the house Wednesday. It might not be my senior night, but I don't know what the heck I'm gonna do without going into Cameron for 8 months....

Dukeface88
02-26-2011, 05:56 PM
Theme nights took place during the non-conference schedule this year. Once it hit Christmas break those were done.


This might have made the difference in both the reportedly - good nonconference and poor conference attendance. If I remember correctly, Wake and BC were Greek and Frosh night last year (although I don't remember which was which).

On a side note, I like how a topic about UNC derailed into a discussion of Duke, rather than the traditional other way around.

BD80
02-26-2011, 06:12 PM
Duke was:

62-57 overall
20-36 Reg season ACC
39-22 Home
17-25 Away
6-10 Neutral

Show up for the games. My peers did, and weren't expecting a win every night.

I had feared my departure would cause a downturn :rolleyes:

proelitedota
02-26-2011, 07:13 PM
First, I don't think 2 volunteers working in the museum area, even if one is a member of the admissions committee are qualified experts into why attendance has been off. But to blame it on a diverse student background without citing any facts to back it up seems a bit silly to use as an argument.
How big is the student population at Duke? About 12K - undergrad and grad? And what percentage of those students are from diverse backgrounds with no knowledge of college basketball? For the sake of argument, lets say it is a whopping 75%. That means 25% of the 12K students, or 4000, are knowledgeable about college basketball. Now, how many seats in Cameron are allocated to students? According to wikipedia, about 1,100. So that means of the students knowledgeable about college basketball only 1/4 of them are needed to fill up the student seats at Cameron.
I don't have actual the statistics, but I challenge someone to come up with them to back up the argument about diversity. I seriously doubt that a diverse student body is keeping students from filling up Cameron.

What's the actual diversity break down of the people attending the games? From my last year at duke 2010, I was under the perception that at least one out of every five students attending the games were Asian. Given that Asians comprise 20-25% of the Duke student body, that's a good representation. But Asians are supposed to be over-achievers, according to stereotypes, so there is no excuse for 50% of the students attending the games to be Asian. :cool:

anon
02-26-2011, 07:29 PM
What's the actual diversity break down of the people attending the games? From my last year at duke 2010, I was under the perception that at least one out of every five students attending the games were Asian. Given that Asians comprise 20-25% of the Duke student body, that's a good representation. But Asians are supposed to be over-achievers, according to stereotypes, so there is no excuse for 50% of the students attending the games to be Asian. :cool:

According to my surveys, the vast majority of students in Cameron are of some strange dark blue skin-color race. That is to say, who the hell cares about the racial breakdown?

proelitedota
02-26-2011, 07:31 PM
According to my surveys, the vast majority of students in Cameron are of some strange dark blue skin-color race. That is to say, who the hell cares about the racial breakdown?

People who want to prove that diversity isn't the problem of the low attendance.

ice-9
02-26-2011, 07:39 PM
One major factor that I think people are underestimating is this: the experience watching the game from home has improved dramatically.

Let's face it, unless you're tall it can be hard getting good visibility in a game. I remember times at Cameron when I had giants standing in the row in front of me; there'd be games where I can't even look at a basket.

Contrast that to today where we have big screen TVs, impressive sound systems, great camera angles, instant replay, Domino's a phone call away, and your best buds all around you.

It's not so much that people care less about Duke basketball, it might be that its just increasingly more pleasurable to consume it at home.

Now I only became a fan after attending my first game in Cameron, so we must absolutely keep people going, but I don't think it's necessary for a "true fan" to have to go to every game, know every chant, learn the complete history or post on DBR everyday.

anon
02-26-2011, 07:41 PM
People who want to prove that diversity isn't the problem of the low attendance.

Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they meant racial diversity. Basketball is a globally popular sport. Duke students today are also more diverse socioeconomically and academically (Duke having been promoted to the level of the Ivies over the past couple of decades) than before.

Dr. Tina
02-27-2011, 02:20 AM
What I know for sure is that there is no way in Tarheel Hell I would be a Duke student and not take advantage of being able to watch our team from the bleachers for free. I wish I lived in Durham now, since it sounds like I would have a halfway decent shot of getting a chance to stand so close to the court.

ricks68
02-27-2011, 03:37 AM
Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't think they meant racial diversity. Basketball is a globally popular sport. Duke students today are also more diverse socioeconomically and academically (Duke having been promoted to the level of the Ivies over the past couple of decades) than before.

I was alluding to cultural diversity, be it socioeconomic or academic, or whatever, that didn't place such an emphasis on college basketball. When I came to Duke in 1964, in order to attend the Freshman Dance, one had to pass a "traditions" test. I failed because I had no idea who Art Heyman was, or Vic Bubas, or that Dick Groat ever played bball. I was born and grew up in Miami, Florida. Culturally, it was not a hotbed of bball at any level. Football, football, and only football. (Think bball = winter sport, football = fall sport. Think South Florida = what is winter, never heard of it?) In case none of you remember, Rick Barry was the AA from the University Miami that tore up the record book for collegiate scoring at the time. Just a short time later, the University of Miami closed down their bball program due to lack of interest, not for recruiting violations, etc.

Now, I live in Houston, and laughed last season when it was alluded to that Baylor was playing Duke in the Regional in Houston as if it was a home game for them. What a joke. When Texas made the FF in New Orleans a few years ago, I drove over from Houston. I was passed by dozens and dozens of Suburbans (that's considered a "Texas Cadillac" for the uninitiated among y'all) with UT flags flying from their vehicles on the way. During the Texas game, the only fan body section that had significant empty seats was the UT section while, in fact, the other sections were completely full. For all subsequent games, very few people remained anywhere in the stadium wearing Texas colors, and their section was almost totally empty.

What I did find, however, were Texas colors crowded into any bar or drinking establishment available at any time of the day. Even before the game, I actually ran into some Texas ticket holders that were trying to sell their tickets for less than face value because they just wanted to stay where they were and party rather than go to the game! Many people from Texas just used the FF as an excuse to party in New Orleans. Even during the entire bball season including the NCAA Tournament, when Texas football is supposed to be finished for the year, over 95% of the discussions on every sports talk show here in Texas appear to be about Texas football----from recruiting, to possible coaching changes, to draft status, to just about anything even resembling a football. Even now, the talk among the people I work with (I work in the UT Health Science Center in Houston) is that they do not bother with Texas bball, and that they will find a way to fold because very few really care and do not support the team anyway. Even Rick Barnes made a public statement last year that he probably had the mot secure coaching position in college bball because the football team drew all the attention.

So, I believe it is the same with the students that are now coming to Duke. I also take issue with what was said about using 12,000 as the number of potential seats for Duke students, as the Duke students we have been talking about have traditionally been only the undergrads. The grad students have now been granted more seats at the expense of the undergrads, as they have always wanted to go, but never had very many seats allocated. I would think that one of the concerns among those at Duke that are involved in seating allocations is that if the trend continues, the undergrads may begin to lose even more of their seating, one way or another.

So, yes, I became a rabid Duke bball fan, but only after I became initiated. For me, it was easy, because I spent almost as much time attending the games as going to class. But, that's not the trend today. I think that more and more of the new Duke students are more academically orientated every year. When you add that to a lack of previous bball interest, I believe the results speak for themselves. While this may not be the main reason---or even verifiable at this point---I believe it should still be considered as one credible explanation.

ricks

Devilsfan
02-27-2011, 10:14 AM
I bet it won't be empty on Saturday night.

Dev11
02-27-2011, 10:41 AM
One major factor that I think people are underestimating is this: the experience watching the game from home has improved dramatically.

Let's face it, unless you're tall it can be hard getting good visibility in a game. I remember times at Cameron when I had giants standing in the row in front of me; there'd be games where I can't even look at a basket.

Contrast that to today where we have big screen TVs, impressive sound systems, great camera angles, instant replay, Domino's a phone call away, and your best buds all around you.

It's not so much that people care less about Duke basketball, it might be that its just increasingly more pleasurable to consume it at home.

Now I only became a fan after attending my first game in Cameron, so we must absolutely keep people going, but I don't think it's necessary for a "true fan" to have to go to every game, know every chant, learn the complete history or post on DBR everyday.

I'll start by saying I grew up cheering for Duke, in the middle of Terp country. I often sport a Christian Laettner jersey in Cameron, and Laettner graduated from Duke right when I turned 3, so I never actually remember seeing him play. I only wanted to go to Duke growing up, and here I am now. I'm a senior, and I go to pretty much every game. Here are the problems with assuming there should be 1,200 undergrads at any given game. I am not whining about them, nor am I assuming that they weren't exactly the same problems back when "Bill Werber served the beer," I'm just stating current facts.

1. Sightlines in the student section I am 5-5, so I am almost an average-sized person on my tiptoes. I believe there are 7 rows in Section 17, and I refuse to stand anywhere past the second row, third if I am lucky and find a particularly good spot. The angle at which the bleachers are built makes it very difficult to see much of the game for those of even normal height. Try watching a game on TV but tape a piece of cardboard to the lower half of the screen. Annoying, right? So, to be able to even see the game, I need to get in line at a 'reasonable' time, leading me to...

2. Time commitment A basketball game last 2 hours. The students are let in 1.5 hours before tipoff, and generally you need to wait 2-4 hours before that in K-ville to secure what I would consider a worthwhile spot with an adequate floor view. Thats 5 hours for any given game, and being college students with all kinds of other commitments, that is a huge burden for a lot of kids. I've managed to end up around 20th percentile in GPA in my class, which is not exactly a thrilling prospect for a student coming in who was probably in the top 5% of his or her high school class(most Duke students). For many, watching an uncompetitive basketball game (which a lot of home games turn out to be), this is simply not worth the sacrifice.

3. Effort So I've established that it takes a large chunk of time to watch a game in Section 17, and that you may never be able to see the game. Now keep in mind that this 5 hours you're spending is either standing or sitting on a cold sidewalk, or standing packed very tightly on rickety, narrow bleachers with one 8 minute break where you can sit on said uncomfortable bleachers. If you want to go to the bathroom, everybody you walk by hates you for knocking him or her over. Yes, we're close to the floor, but we are anything but comfortable, and all the jumping around gets really tiring and sometimes feels dangerous. I often say that I'm going to go to a game and then leave to do work. Rarely does that actually happen, as I'm too tired from all the jumping and shouting to sit down and think.

There is no room for a casual fan in the student section, because you can't sit and you can't be comfortable. Yes, there are few experiences like Section 17 anywhere in the country, and that is why it is hard for many kids from professional sports hotbeds (I'm looking at you, gigantic NY/NJ student population) to want to go. "Why would I stand in the cold, then be uncomfortably squashed and not able to see, when I can more easily watch from my nice TV?" Being a Cameron Crazie is not attending a basketball game, it is BEING a basketball game. They used to let us fill in Section 19, the 'non-TV side,' but that has since been taken away, so some of my friends who used to go don't anymore.

1,200 seats is about a fifth of the student body. I'd estimate conservatively that 30% of the student population could give a rat's behind about sports at all (I think that number is higher), so filling the undergraduate allotment is a real challenge. It sucks that they have to sell the seats on the end, but it's also ludicrous to think that so many students could afford to spend all day Wednesday or Sunday (most game days) participating in this activity.

It's my last home game on Wednesday. I am not happy that I will no longer be able to stand so close to the players that I can hear what they're saying on the court, but I can't say I'll miss the sidewalk in front of Card Gym. Go Duke!

anon
02-27-2011, 08:43 PM
I'll start by saying I grew up cheering for Duke, in the middle of Terp country. <snip> Go Duke!

This is pretty much spot-on. I also think the Sports Marketing Department could do a LOT more to make waiting for games more enjoyable for students. And giving back Section 19 would be a great improvement and would encourage more non-freshmen (and other people who don't need to be on TV) to come to games.

And, for god's sake, turn off that abhorrent video board once in a while. I promise I'll buy lots more Duke merchandise to make up for the lost ad revenue.


I bet it won't be empty on Saturday night.

I bet it will, considering the game is in Chapel Hill. Or did you mean something else entirely?

El_Diablo
02-27-2011, 09:36 PM
I bet it will, considering the game is in Chapel Hill. Or did you mean something else entirely?

He meant the Dean Dome. You know, the topic of the thread before it got hijacked...

uh_no
02-27-2011, 09:47 PM
I believe there are 7 rows in Section 17, and I refuse to stand anywhere past the second row, third if I am lucky and find a particularly good spot.

There are 10 rows, including the row that stands on the floor. You can almost always get an amazing seat close to the front if you go in line with the baseline.

Sir Stealth
02-28-2011, 01:26 AM
I think that a lot of what may make it difficult to fill the student section every night is the perception that you have to be a "Cameron Crazy" to attend a Duke game. People think of being a Cameron Crazy as painting your face, yelling in front of a TV camera, laying out on a cold sidewalk for hours before the game, and viewing a game from packed bleachers.

Of course, as Duke fans who love Cameron and the power of what the Cameron Crazies bring to homecourt advantage and the overall uniqueness of the Duke experience, we do kind of want there to be 1,100 students in those bleachers every night who are true Cameron Crazies that exert maximum effort to support the team throughout the game, every game, and make Cameron all that it is made out to be. But this just isn't everybody.

Ideally, you would have enough Cameron Crazy types to fill up the middle of the bleachers and create an atmosphere the lifts everybody else into full, noisy support. Most everyone likes to go to a sporting event and get loud with a loud crowd. However, as the focus on Crazies has grown, I think that a lot of people just don't see themselves as the type to attend a Duke basketball game.

Most people don't really think about attending as just walking about 15 minutes before tip in a Duke t-shirt and cheering loudly from the edge of the bleachers. Every game is televised now, so a lot of students who are big Duke basketball fans watch the game on a big high quality TV minutes away from the game itself. Having die hard Cameron Crazies to lead the crowd and get creative from the middle isn't the problem - For the rest of the student body, I think it couldn't hurt to spread the word out there that you can attend a great game, cheer for the team, and focus on the game itself rather than how long you had to wait or what's going on in the stands.

throatybeard
02-28-2011, 12:49 PM
See the pocket reference, section 11e (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?3217-FAQ-TV-Coverage-Game-Chat-NCAA-Compliance-quot-9F-quot-NBA). The Cameron Crazies have been on the decline for decades! I'm pretty sure nobody even shows up anymore.

Closely related:

11K) The damn kids don’t support the team any more. Let me explain how much more effective I would be in those stands despite my varicose veins and my mortgage debt.

RickS mentions the growing diversity of the student body as a possible driver of less interest in BB. This reminds me to make a point I've been meaning to for a while but forget. I think part of our PR problem w/r/t demography stems from ESPN telecasts. That is, you turn on the tube, and of the people who aren't painted blue, you see a bunch of white kids and a few Asian-American kids of both East Asian and Indian derivation. You hardly see anyone Black or Latin. So say you go to Maryland or Kentucky, and you already don't like Duke, and you see seventeen national telecasts a year of Cameron, and what happens? The picture basically reinforces your existing preconceptions about what a bunch of little white-privileged snots Dukies are.

I have no idea how you could attempt to encourage, particularly, more African-American and Latin students to go to games. Or whether you should even try. The overwhelming majority of Black sports fans I know like the NBA better than College BB anyway.

Reilly
02-28-2011, 01:14 PM
... That is, you turn on the tube, and of the people who aren't painted blue, you see a bunch of white kids and a few Asian-American kids of both East Asian and Indian derivation. ...

A few? We're not watching the same telecasts. I'm curious as to the percentage break down of Asian students over the past 25 years: what % was it then, what now. My friends have commented that a shot like the one you describe shows a lot more Asian kids than 20 years ago, say.

uh_no
02-28-2011, 01:32 PM
I have no idea how you could attempt to encourage, particularly, more African-American and Latin students to go to games. Or whether you should even try. The overwhelming majority of Black sports fans I know like the NBA better than College BB anyway.

Never once on campus have I heard anything akin to not going to games because of this....never once...kids that want to go to games do....people never say 'oh its all rich white kids, i don't fit in'....

throatybeard
02-28-2011, 02:24 PM
Never once on campus have I heard anything akin to not going to games because of this....never once...kids that want to go to games do....people never say 'oh its all rich white kids, i don't fit in'....

I'm not saying they do. I'm saying the paucity of African American and Latin faces in the crowd in Cameron fuel a public perception problem we have.

Bluedog
02-28-2011, 02:51 PM
A few? We're not watching the same telecasts. I'm curious as to the percentage break down of Asian students over the past 25 years: what % was it then, what now. My friends have commented that a shot like the one you describe shows a lot more Asian kids than 20 years ago, say.


I'm not saying they do. I'm saying the paucity of African American and Latin faces in the crowd in Cameron fuel a public perception problem we have.

First, I don't think racial diversity has anything to do with whether Duke fans are basketball fanatics in larger numbers or not. Maybe "interest" diversity is a factor, but not race.

Having said that, can you really tell if a student is Caucasian or Hispanic from a camera shot 30 feet away? I can't. Heck, maybe I'm not attune to these things, but there are many hispanics at Duke that I can't say one way or the other with certainty even once I see them up close.

Here's a video from the Admissions Office of the changing demographics of the student body in case you're curious:

http://ondemand.duke.edu/video/24391/duke-students-who-are-they

1985: 87% white, 13% non-white
2010: 55% white, 45% non-white (22% Asian; almost half of the non-white)

Duke is a LOT less white than the vast majority of public institutions in this country. UNC is way more white than Duke.

1990: 52 international students in the freshman class
2010: 155 international students in the freshman class (+200%)

oldnavy
02-28-2011, 05:40 PM
I'm not saying they do. I'm saying the paucity of African American and Latin faces in the crowd in Cameron fuel a public perception problem we have.

The students at Duke look like the students at Kansas who look like the students at Clemson who look like the students at Georgetown, etc..

I really do not see a big difference in the demographics when they pan the camera across the student sections of any school. Not saying that all the schools have the same make up, but trying to make a judgement about a school's public relations image from an ESPN camera shot is going to be very difficult sell.

Regenman
02-28-2011, 07:30 PM
Let's be realistic. There are a lot more Asians in the student section on a Duke telecast than for any other school that regularly gets on TV. I'm Asian (and amused by it). None of the other top 10 basketball schools have a student population that's 25% Asian.

That doesn't play a factor in the "Duke hate". That's been around since the the early 90s and relates directly to our players on the court (and, of course, not warranted).

coldriver10
02-28-2011, 08:36 PM
I don't ever repeat posts as I just assume that when no one responds then they're just being ignored (and usually rightfully so...), but I felt the need to re-post this because I don't believe this particular issue has really been discussed. And since the original post was previously at the very end of page 1, I'll play the narcissist that thinks maybe it just wasn't seen. When this post gets ignored, I'll go back to the realization that my opinions are useless. Time for the re-post:

Honestly, I think the decline in the Crazies (according to some on this board...I was a student last decade and thought we were great, albeit with nothing to compare it to) has a great deal to do with the increased competitiveness of college, graduate/professional schools, and jobs in general. When I was in high school, good extracurriculars in addition to a great GPA were required to get admitted to a school like Duke. Now, it seems like anything short of greatness in several areas isn't good enough to get you in. The admission rates for professional schools have similarly decreased, even from when I was admitted to medical school in 2005-06 to now (I think the admission rate for all med school applicants was 48% back then...it's 43.6 now). I was an interviewer for Duke School of Medicine 2 years ago, and let me tell you...I would not have gotten in now. It seems like every applicant has founded a charity, discovered some protein, or done international mission work. This leaves a heck of a lot less time for waiting in line for hours just to get a bracelet and then for hours again to attend the games.

Camping out and attending Duke basketball games was an essential part of my Duke experience, and I wouldn't have had it any other way. But I can't fault today's students for choosing to study or otherwise boost their application- yet still be able to watch the game on TV- rather than spending hours to attend the games in person. The educational world is different now.

Jackson
02-28-2011, 08:46 PM
Actually, students often failed to fill the lower levels of Cameron in the dark days of the early Krzyzewski era (e.g.- years 2 and 3)... I can remember walking into the game which probably marks the nadir of the Krzyzewski administration (the home blow-out loss to Wagner College in 1982-83) mid-way into the first half, and the place was like a mausoleum... there was nobody in the lower level-- of course, Duke didn't have to be embarrassed about that being shown on national television-- nobody was interested in showing Duke on national TV then.

You do remember that there was no tenting, and no waiting on-line to get into games in those days, right?

In all fairness to the Crazies of 1982-83, I was at the Wagner game that year, sitting in the student section. It was during Christmas break.

uh_no
02-28-2011, 08:47 PM
I don't ever repeat posts as I just assume that when no one responds then they're just being ignored (and usually rightfully so...), but I felt the need to re-post this because I don't believe this particular issue has really been discussed. And since the original post was previously at the very end of page 1, I'll play the narcissist that thinks maybe it just wasn't seen. When this post gets ignored, I'll go back to the realization that my opinions are useless. Time for the re-post:

Honestly, I think the decline in the Crazies (according to some on this board...I was a student last decade and thought we were great, albeit with nothing to compare it to) has a great deal to do with the increased competitiveness of college, graduate/professional schools, and jobs in general. When I was in high school, good extracurriculars in addition to a great GPA were required to get admitted to a school like Duke. Now, it seems like anything short of greatness in several areas isn't good enough to get you in. The admission rates for professional schools have similarly decreased, even from when I was admitted to medical school in 2005-06 to now (I think the admission rate for all med school applicants was 48% back then...it's 43.6 now). I was an interviewer for Duke School of Medicine 2 years ago, and let me tell you...I would not have gotten in now. It seems like every applicant has founded a charity, discovered some protein, or done international mission work. This leaves a heck of a lot less time for waiting in line for hours just to get a bracelet and then for hours again to attend the games.

Camping out and attending Duke basketball games was an essential part of my Duke experience, and I wouldn't have had it any other way. But I can't fault today's students for choosing to study or otherwise boost their application- yet still be able to watch the game on TV- rather than spending hours to attend the games in person. The educational world is different now.

I'm gonna be gone from duke in a few months, and I can't agree more with this sentiment. I saw the post the first time yet didn't respond. I could list off all the stuff I do, but it would be silly. Having just gone through a job search, I have first hand experience with how much 'stuff' it often takes to get a job. I was fortunate enough to be an engineer...I can't imagine having majored in something where jobs are scarce. I am also fortunate enough to complete my class work relatively quickly, which affords me the opportunity to be a crazie. I do not fault those of us who instead take that time and preside over a club or spend the extra time on class work. Duke is special for all the opportunities it presents to students. I cannot in any way fault those students who take the opportunities which are not duke basketball or Duke athletics in general.