Jalen Rose on the Fab 5

[Billy Dat]

I thought this was a good thread in which to put the following Friday laugh. Jalen Rose chatted on ESPN today about a forthcoming ESPN doc on the Fab Five (~20th Anniversay) that he helped produce. Here are two Q&As that I thought everyone would get a kick out of:

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/37181/fab-fives-jalen-rose

Josh (Ann Arbor)
Toughest opponent you faced while at Michigan?

Jalen Rose (12:59 PM)
Duke. They arguably are one of the greatest teams in modern college basketball history.

Karl (NYC)
Jalen. You guys never beat Duke. Does that still bug you ?

Jalen Rose (1:01 PM)
Yes. I hate Duke.

[ikiru36]

I thought this was a good thread in which to put the following Friday laugh. Jalen Rose chatted on ESPN today about a forthcoming ESPN doc on the Fab Five (~20th Anniversay) that he helped produce. Here are two Q&As that I thought everyone would get a kick out of:

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/37181/fab-fives-jalen-rose

Josh (Ann Arbor)
Toughest opponent you faced while at Michigan?

Jalen Rose (12:59 PM)
Duke. They arguably are one of the greatest teams in modern college basketball history.

Karl (NYC)
Jalen. You guys never beat Duke. Does that still bug you ?

Jalen Rose (1:01 PM)
Yes. I hate Duke.

I appreciate his honesty on both counts. :0)

A clear example of "hate" really referring to fear, envy and respect. That brand of hate I'll accept, as it comes with the territory of being the best!

Go Duke!!!!!!!!! Go Blue Devils!!!!!!!!!!!!! GTHCGTH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Atlanta Duke]

The early 90s Duke teams presumably will be featured as the primary foil for 2 teams that get their own documentaries in 2 weeks

UNLV get its special on HBO on March 12
http://www.hbo.com/sports/runnin-rebels-of-unlv/synopsis/synpsis.html#/sports/runnin-rebels-of-unlv/index.html

Fab Five special goes out on March 13

Two decades later those programs live on memories while Coach K rolls on

[Olympic Fan]

The Fab Five exploded onto the national scene in a December 14 game in Ann Arbor that was nationally televised by CBS.

Michigan, which won the national title in 1989, had fallen on hard times and had struggled in 1991. Three of the five freshmen started against No. 1 Duke in that early season game (Chris Webber, Jalen Rose and Juwon Howard) and Jimmy King came off the bench to play against the Devils. The fifth member, Ray Jackson played just three minutes.

It was a great game with Webber scoring 27 points and Rose 18 for No. 23 Michigan. King had 15 off the bench. But Duke got 26 from Hurley and 24 from Laettner and won 88-85 in overtime.

The two teams met again, as I'm sure you know, in the national title game. This time Duke was No. 1 and Michigan was ranked No. 15. Michigan led at the half as Laettner had perhaps the worst half of his career (at least of his senior season). But he bounced back in the second half and Grant Hill dominated down the stretch as Duke won 71-51 ... it was closer than that, but the Devils pulled away at the end.

The next December, the Fab Five -- the preseason No. 1 team -- came to Cameron and were smashed 79-68 on Dec. 5 by Hurley, Grant Hill and company.

That was the last time the complete Fab Five played Duke. A year later, Webber had turned pro, but the Wolverines still had fourth-fifths of the Fab 5 as No. 4 Duke beat No. 3 Michigan in Ann Arbor, 73-63.

By the next year, Howard and Rose had turned pro, leaving just Jimmy King and Ray Jackson left from the Fab Five. They visited Duke (which would later collapse that season) as the nation's No. 23 team in December and lost again 69-59.

So I guess you could say the Fab Fuve was either 0-3 or 0-5 against Duke -- depending on whether you're talking about the complete Fab Five or just the Fab Five Class.

[Reilly]

The Fab Five exploded onto the national scene in a December 14 game in Ann Arbor that was nationally televised by CBS.....

That was a tremendous game and resonates. I remember being out Christmas shopping in DC earlier that day, and then ducking into The Front Page to watch the game. Every year in December, when the weather has turned, maybe some snow is blowing (I think some did that day), and a city is decorated for Christmas, and there's some great sporting event on on a Saturday afternoon to watch in a warm environment, that whole scene comes back to me. Proust had his biscuit ... we have Duke victories ...

[elvis14]

The Fab Five exploded onto the national scene in a December 14 game in Ann Arbor that was nationally televised by CBS.

My best friend got married that day. He's a Duke basketball fan as well. During the reception, he and I got in a little trouble with the bride. She wasn't too happy when she found us in the kitchen of the hall watching the only TV we could find. She made him go back to the reception...she just gave me the evil eye and left me to watch the rest of the game.

I moved to the Triangle area in 1991. My best friend still lives in Greenwood, SC. We DVR Duke games and watch them together using speaker phones and synchronizing our DVR's. He's still married somehow!

[dairedevil]

My Dad (graduated in '47) was in the hospital, and the doctor had told us it would be a good idea to call the family together, as he didn't know if Dad would make it. We gathered around his bedside, put the Duke-Michigan game on. Dad drifted in and out, but always wanted to know if Duke was winning... he pulled through and was home for Christmas. I think he wanted to be around for those first 2 championships!

[pamtar]

FWIW, Jalen is one of the best analysts on TV. He's the Bilas of the NBA. Im sure the "I hate Duke" comment was tongue in cheek. Though, he does probably harbor some resentment for the beat down we gave them, I'm sure he literally hates UNC.

[wsb3]

Remember the Dec 1992 game and they were woofing about playing Duke and one of them said they wish the NBA would let Christian come back and play.

End result. They woof, They lost to Duke...Again..:cool:

[rthomas]

Fab 5 legacy:

Weren't the Fab 5 illegally recruited, NCAA found out, then Steve Fisher fired, Michigan went on probation, then Tommy Amaker was hired to bail them out, but the probation was too hard to overcome, so he was fired too?

[BobbyFan]

Remember the Dec 1992 game and they were woofing about playing Duke and one of them said they wish the NBA would let Christian come back and play.

End result. They woof, They lost to Duke...Again..:cool:

The Fab Five sure could run their mouths. Webber talked trash after dunking on Laettner in the regular season game in 1991, but Laettner returned the favor later in the game.

And as you noted, prior to the 1992 game, the FF had plenty to say - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004645/1/index.htm

[wsb3]

The Fab Five sure could run their mouths. Webber talked trash after dunking on Laettner in the regular season game in 1991, but Laettner returned the favor later in the game.

And as you noted, prior to the 1992 game, the FF had plenty to say - http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/vault/article/magazine/MAG1004645/1/index.htm

Great Link. Thanks for sharing.

[dukemsu]

On ESPN's new Fab Five promotional video, Rose assails Duke, stating that "Duke recruits only Uncle Toms". Absolutely unbelievable. Will Duke respond to this? dukemsu

[Curt]

On ESPN's new Fab Five promotional video, Rose assails Duke, stating that "Duke recruits only Uncle Toms". Absolutely unbelievable. Will Duke respond to this? dukemsu
Jalen who?

[superdave]

On ESPN's new Fab Five promotional video, Rose assails Duke, stating that "Duke recruits only Uncle Toms". Absolutely unbelievable. Will Duke respond to this? dukemsu

Is that race-baiting or racist? I'm not quite sure how to categorize what Jalen Rose said. Let's just go with he's an idiot and Espn should probably suspend him for a week.

[Lord Ash]

Wow. Seriously, that was the language he used? Stunning. Wonder how our African American players feel about that.

[RelativeWays]

On ESPN's new Fab Five promotional video, Rose assails Duke, stating that "Duke recruits only Uncle Toms". Absolutely unbelievable. Will Duke respond to this? dukemsu

Current Jalen Rose or 91-93 Jalen Rose? If its the latter I can see that because that was Duke's reputation in regards to their black players, with Grant Hill being the epitome of the "safe black athlete its okay for whites to like" image. I'm not saying thats the reality back then, but that was the image thrust upon Duke at the time by dumb outsiders. Other than Battier, we haven't had a player that comes close to that image. Brand, Maggette, Jones, JWill, Gerald, Nolan and Kyrie are certainly not uncle toms by those standards even if some of them came from affluent backgrounds.

[superdave]

Here's a link that has the whole story. (http://www.sportsgrid.com/ncaa-basketball/jalen-rose-i-hated-duke-i-felt-like-they-only-recruited-black-players-that-were-uncle-toms/) Unwise to say but not as bad as it first came across.

[devildeac]

Is that race-baiting or racist? I'm not quite sure how to categorize what Jalen Rose said. Let's just go with he's an idiot and Espn should probably suspend him for a week.

Why only a week?

[kong123]

This is the sort of thing that will cause Duke trouble in recruiting some kids. Whether it is right or its wrong, its a stereotype that has been developed over time. Duke has always recruited kids that seem to have their heads on straight. Kid's that seem to be disciplined and seem to be extremely smart and coachable. That's the good side. The other side of the coin is it keeps a lot of kids, like Jalen Rose, from identifying with your players. Maybe you could careless if a Jalen Rose kid identifies with Duke, but every once in a while you will lose a kid because of this. Ultimately, Duke does well with who they get because of their coach and their system. UNC casts a wider net than Duke and therefore has more luck identifying with a broader range of recruits. Both schools usually get the players that they want and both schools are among the best in the country, year in and year out. So, there is more than one way to do it. Duke's way isn't wrong, but as Jalen said, it leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths. Especially after you beat them for a NCAA Championship.

[gcashwell]

This is the sort of thing that will cause Duke trouble in recruiting some kids. Whether it is right or its wrong, its a stereotype that has been developed over time. Duke has always recruited kids that seem to have their heads on straight. Kid's that seem to be disciplined and seem to be extremely smart and coachable. That's the good side. The other side of the coin is it keeps a lot of kids, like Jalen Rose, from identifying with your players. Maybe you could careless if a Jalen Rose kid identifies with Duke, but every once in a while you will lose a kid because of this. Ultimately, Duke does well with who they get because of their coach and their system. UNC casts a wider net than Duke and therefore has more luck identifying with a broader range of recruits. Both schools usually get the players that they want and both schools are among the best in the country, year in and year out. So, there is more than one way to do it. Duke's way isn't wrong, but as Jalen said, it leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths. Especially after you beat them for a NCAA Championship.

Duke wants kids that are going to value their education there. Jalen Rose was not one of those kids. Duke does not want kids like him, and don't care if they lose them.

[roywhite]

This is the sort of thing that will cause Duke trouble in recruiting some kids. Whether it is right or its wrong, its a stereotype that has been developed over time. Duke has always recruited kids that seem to have their heads on straight. Kid's that seem to be disciplined and seem to be extremely smart and coachable. That's the good side. The other side of the coin is it keeps a lot of kids, like Jalen Rose, from identifying with your players. Maybe you could careless if a Jalen Rose kid identifies with Duke, but every once in a while you will lose a kid because of this. Ultimately, Duke does well with who they get because of their coach and their system. UNC casts a wider net than Duke and therefore has more luck identifying with a broader range of recruits. Both schools usually get the players that they want and both schools are among the best in the country, year in and year out. So, there is more than one way to do it. Duke's way isn't wrong, but as Jalen said, it leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths. Especially after you beat them for a NCAA Championship.


There is nothing in Rose's comments (or kong's) that convinces me that Duke is missing out on players that would be a good fit, or that Coach K and his staff need to change their recruiting approach.

Hey, Jalen: SCOREBOARD

[weezie]

...that whole scene comes back to me. Proust had his biscuit ... we have Duke victories ...

Reilly, did you have Fowlie for Proust at Duke?

[weezie]

Both schools usually get the players that they want and both schools are among the best in the country, year in and year out...Duke's way isn't wrong, but as Jalen said, it leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths.

Well, thanks for pointing that out. Maybe the 'holes have a bad taste in their collective mouth, as evidenced by their pitiful, hickish and ignorant "inside hole-ina gathering spot for idiots" but we have excellent dental health and all our teeth over here at Duke.

Let's Go Devils!

[superdave]

This is the sort of thing that will cause Duke trouble in recruiting some kids. Whether it is right or its wrong, its a stereotype that has been developed over time. Duke has always recruited kids that seem to have their heads on straight. Kid's that seem to be disciplined and seem to be extremely smart and coachable. That's the good side. The other side of the coin is it keeps a lot of kids, like Jalen Rose, from identifying with your players. Maybe you could careless if a Jalen Rose kid identifies with Duke, but every once in a while you will lose a kid because of this. Ultimately, Duke does well with who they get because of their coach and their system. UNC casts a wider net than Duke and therefore has more luck identifying with a broader range of recruits. Both schools usually get the players that they want and both schools are among the best in the country, year in and year out. So, there is more than one way to do it. Duke's way isn't wrong, but as Jalen said, it leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths. Especially after you beat them for a NCAA Championship.

First of all, as long as Duke is a consistent winner kids will want to come. Winning begets recruiting which begets more winning.

Second, every school has a reputation that comes from their athletes and coaches. Unc's methods are not wrong, but there's plenty to dislike in the Roy Williams era if you are comparing programs. Recruits have seen it and heard it and I bet the AAU circuit spreads it more than anything. As long as Roy wins, I'm sure he'll overcome most of that too.

[weezie]

Hey, Jalen: SCOREBOARD

HAHAHAH, OUR Roy is the best Roy of all. :D:D:D

[kong123]

There is nothing in Rose's comments (or kong's) that convinces me that Duke is missing out on players that would be a good fit, or that Coach K and his staff need to change their recruiting approach.

Hey, Jalen: SCOREBOARD

to say that you are not missing out is obviously wrong. there are plenty of good kids out there that would value what Duke has to offer and would offer Duke something great in return.

[Atlanta Duke]

This is the sort of thing that will cause Duke trouble in recruiting some kids. Whether it is right or its wrong, its a stereotype that has been developed over time. Duke has always recruited kids that seem to have their heads on straight. Kid's that seem to be disciplined and seem to be extremely smart and coachable. That's the good side. The other side of the coin is it keeps a lot of kids, like Jalen Rose, from identifying with your players. Maybe you could careless if a Jalen Rose kid identifies with Duke, but every once in a while you will lose a kid because of this. Ultimately, Duke does well with who they get because of their coach and their system. UNC casts a wider net than Duke and therefore has more luck identifying with a broader range of recruits. Both schools usually get the players that they want and both schools are among the best in the country, year in and year out. So, there is more than one way to do it. Duke's way isn't wrong, but as Jalen said, it leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths. Especially after you beat them for a NCAA Championship.

If we had this conversation in April 2009 I might be more concerned about Duke allegedly missing out on recruits with a certain mindset and the extent of compromises that need to be made to stay competitive in modern college ball with Duke's neighbor down 15-501, let alone the NBA halfway house being run in Kentucky.

Given recent Duke recruiting results and the outcome of the 2010 tournament, if Duke is missing out on certain players with the mindset you attribute to them (which I guess is players without their heads on straight who are dumb, uncoachable, and undisciplined) then so be it

Is it your view that is what resulted in Mr. Barnes electing to go to UNC after Duke tried so hard to recruit him? :)

[kong123]

If we had this conversation in April 2009 I might be more concerned about Duke allegedly missing out on recruits with a certain mindset and the extent of compromises that need to be made to stay competitive in modern college ball with Duke's neighbor down 15-501, let alone the NBA pit stop being run in Kentucky.

Given recent recruiting results and the 2010 tournament, if Duke is missing out on certain players with the mindset you attribute to them (is it your view that is what resulted in Mr. Barnes electing to go to UNC after Duke tried so hard to recruit him?) then so be it.


I think HB would have been a perfect fit for Duke.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

This is the sort of thing that will cause Duke trouble in recruiting some kids. Whether it is right or its wrong, its a stereotype that has been developed over time. Duke has always recruited kids that seem to have their heads on straight. Kid's that seem to be disciplined and seem to be extremely smart and coachable. That's the good side. The other side of the coin is it keeps a lot of kids, like Jalen Rose, from identifying with your players. Maybe you could careless if a Jalen Rose kid identifies with Duke, but every once in a while you will lose a kid because of this. Ultimately, Duke does well with who they get because of their coach and their system. UNC casts a wider net than Duke and therefore has more luck identifying with a broader range of recruits. Both schools usually get the players that they want and both schools are among the best in the country, year in and year out. So, there is more than one way to do it. Duke's way isn't wrong, but as Jalen said, it leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths. Especially after you beat them for a NCAA Championship.

So you are saying that the Duke brand does not appeal to everyone? Shocking analysis. That most women find me repulsive did not keep me from getting married. Universal appreciation is simply not required nor necessarily advantageous.

[Duvall]

I think HB would have been a perfect fit for Duke.

In skills perhaps, but Duke recruits players, not brands. Other schools seem to be more open to that sort of thing.

[loldevilz]

This is the sort of thing that will cause Duke trouble in recruiting some kids. Whether it is right or its wrong, its a stereotype that has been developed over time. Duke has always recruited kids that seem to have their heads on straight. Kid's that seem to be disciplined and seem to be extremely smart and coachable. That's the good side. The other side of the coin is it keeps a lot of kids, like Jalen Rose, from identifying with your players. Maybe you could careless if a Jalen Rose kid identifies with Duke, but every once in a while you will lose a kid because of this. Ultimately, Duke does well with who they get because of their coach and their system. UNC casts a wider net than Duke and therefore has more luck identifying with a broader range of recruits. Both schools usually get the players that they want and both schools are among the best in the country, year in and year out. So, there is more than one way to do it. Duke's way isn't wrong, but as Jalen said, it leaves a bad taste in some peoples mouths. Especially after you beat them for a NCAA Championship.

Calling black Duke players "Uncle Tom's" is ridiculous and malicious. Duke doesn't waste its time worrying about that kind of stuff and thats why they win championships and go to final fours. By the way, the Fab Five left that program in ruins. Thats their legacy.

[Nugget]

Rose's comments certainly raise a number of provocative points.

First, as Kong rightly notes, whether or not Rose's assertion is true is, in some respects, irrelevant -- there is no doubt that such a perception is out there and that it will impact certain recruits, some positively and some negatively.

Second, Jalen's clarification of his initial "Uncle Tom" comment as meaning that "They recruit black players from polished families, accomplished families," hits on an extraordinarily troubling, and persistent, stereotype that has been perpetuated. Indeed, even President Obama has spoken out against the ludicrousy of having accepted a mindsight that "polished, accomplished families" are somehow less authentically black (or, worse, have in so doing sold out their black identity -- "Uncle Tom.")

Third, I disagree with Kong in that, for the most part, I see North Carolina falling much closer on the recruiting scale to Duke than on the other side -- nearly all of North Carolina's players also come from "polished, accomplished families," just like Duke's. There's no question that Barnes or Marshall or Henson or McDonald or Zeller or the Wears would all have fit in well at Duke (indeed, we recruited all of them but Zeller at some point). Similarly, it is easy to see Nolan Smith, Singler, Kyrie, Rivers, Kelly or the Plumlees at Carolina.

Even looking at past stars, we recruited Brandan Wright, Carter, Stackhouse, and Montross hard, while Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill and Jason Williams all very well could have ended up at Carolina. So, I think there isn't really that much difference in Duke and Carolina's recruiting.

[kong123]

Third, I disagree with Kong in that, for the most part, I see North Carolina falling much closer on the recruiting scale to Duke than on the other side -- nearly all of North Carolina's players also come from "polished, accomplished families," just like Duke's. There's no question that Barnes or Marshall or Henson or McDonald or Zeller or the Wears would all have fit in well at Duke (indeed, we recruited all of them but Zeller at some point). Similarly, it is easy to see Nolan Smith, Singler, Kyrie, Rivers, Kelly or the Plumlees at Carolina.

Even looking at past stars, we recruited Brandan Wright, Carter, Stackhouse, and Montross hard, while Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill and Jason Williams all very well could have ended up at Carolina. So, I think there isn't really that much difference in Duke and Carolina's recruiting.

I agree that we go after some of the same kids. I also agree that going after kids that come from stable backgrounds benefits the program and ultimately the schools image. I have no problem with that. I think the point is, UNC players seem to put their personalities out there a bit more than the Duke players. Perhaps you think UNC players are idiots for dancing around and carrying on over on the bench, but I have no problem with that. I enjoy seeing kids smile and have fun. I have heard criticism on this board of UNC players doing these things. Duke kids seem to act as if they are in the military. Perhaps rightly so due to K's background.

[thenameisbond]

Rose's comments certainly raise a number of provocative points.

First, as Kong rightly notes, whether or not Rose's assertion is true is, in some respects, irrelevant -- there is no doubt that such a perception is out there and that it will impact certain recruits, some positively and some negatively.

Second, Jalen's clarification of his initial "Uncle Tom" comment as meaning that "They recruit black players from polished families, accomplished families," hits on an extraordinarily troubling, and persistent, stereotype that has been perpetuated. Indeed, even President Obama has spoken out against the ludicrousy of having accepted a mindsight that "polished, accomplished families" are somehow less authentically black (or, worse, have in so doing sold out their black identity -- "Uncle Tom.")

Third, I disagree with Kong in that, for the most part, I see North Carolina falling much closer on the recruiting scale to Duke than on the other side -- nearly all of North Carolina's players also come from "polished, accomplished families," just like Duke's. There's no question that Barnes or Marshall or Henson or McDonald or Zeller or the Wears would all have fit in well at Duke (indeed, we recruited all of them but Zeller at some point). Similarly, it is easy to see Nolan Smith, Singler, Kyrie, Rivers, Kelly or the Plumlees at Carolina.

Even looking at past stars, we recruited Brandan Wright, Carter, Stackhouse, and Montross hard, while Ferry, Laettner, Hurley, Grant Hill and Jason Williams all very well could have ended up at Carolina. So, I think there isn't really that much difference in Duke and Carolina's recruiting.

There's also the fact that Roy always tries to poach Duke recruits as soon as they get an offer. :p

[-jk]

I agree that we go after some of the same kids. I also agree that going after kids that come from stable backgrounds benefits the program and ultimately the schools image. I have no problem with that. I think the point is, UNC players seem to put their personalities out there a bit more than the Duke players. Perhaps you think UNC players are idiots for dancing around and carrying on over on the bench, but I have no problem with that. I enjoy seeing kids smile and have fun. I have heard criticism on this board of UNC players doing these things. Duke kids seem to act as if they are in the military. Perhaps rightly so due to K's background.

Kong, you need to watch Duke Blue Planet more. And our players are still allowed to Tweet.

-jk

[kong123]

Kong, you need to watch Duke Blue Planet more. And our players are still allowed to Tweet.

-jk

our players tweet too. in fact, KM sent a tweet to Nolan congratulating him on POY award.

[hurley1]

On ESPN's new Fab Five promotional video, Rose assails Duke, stating that "Duke recruits only Uncle Toms". Absolutely unbelievable. Will Duke respond to this? dukemsu

Rose is nothing but a thug......nothing more, nothing less.....young black kids without direction in their lives are the ones he really hurt with this comment.....sure, teach them to hate kids who have character, morals, and the ambition to be educated....that is exactly what they need.....why do they put stupid people on television ???....i wish coach k would come out and say...." We were well aware of all of the fab 5 players when they were in high school, but had no interest whatsoever in recruiting them for obvious reasons. "......BECAUSE THAT'S THE TRUTH.....

[Duvall]

our players tweet too.

Only with adult supervision (http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/08/30/655873/unc-tweaks-twitter-facebook-policies.html).

[Duvall]

We were well aware of all of the fab 5 players when they were in high school, but had no interest whatsoever in recruiting them for obvious reasons. "......BECAUSE THAT'S THE TRUTH.....

Er, not exactly...

[kong123]

Only with adult supervision (http://www.newsobserver.com/2010/08/30/655873/unc-tweaks-twitter-facebook-policies.html).

I think this is a lesson in self awareness. These guys are only kids but there words can mean a lot to a lot of people. Being more responsible for what you say in public is part of growing as a person. Twitter is still a new concept and so dealing with it from a University side was not looked at before the football scandal. I do not believe the UNC basketball players were the reason for the change in the handbook.

[hurley1]

Maybe when rose ends up on skid row broke ( and he will ) and Grant Hill drives by in his Lambo, maybe, just maybe rose will get it then......rose's definition of uncle tom is educated....you know, the kind of players that don't call timeouts when THERE AREN'T ANY !!!!!!....LOL......

[wilson]

And our players are still allowed to Tweet.

-jkAnd we've never had any of our players compare participating in our program to being in prison (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2004/basketball/ncaa/10/16/bc.bkc.ncarolina.mccants.ap/).

[SupaDave]

Maybe when rose ends up on skid row broke ( and he will ) and Grant Hill drives by in his Lambo, maybe, just maybe rose will get it then......rose's definition of uncle tom is educated....you know, the kind of players that don't call timeouts when THERE AREN'T ANY !!!!!!....LOL......

Rose isn't a thug and by all accounts his head is screwed on right. He says that's how he felt as a inner city 18 year old. Does that make him a thug? I don't think so. Does it make him right? Not at all. But it still doesn't change how an 18 year old kid FEELS. And as black kid who grew up in Durham I can tell you that his sentiment is FAR from a novelty.

However, it is genuinely gone today. In fact me and the boys were just commenting on the fact that Austin Rivers is about to be become Duke's new villain poster boy. He's JJ and then some...

FYI - Duke recruited Chris Webber for three years so please let's be a little more civil.

[superdave]

I always liked when Brian Butch said he didnt have enough swagger to go to Carolina. After watching Vince Carter preen for three years as either the 3rd, 4th or 5th scoring option on his team, I would not want to be involved with a program where that's prevalent. It was a perfect fit for the kids who ran off Doherty, compared the team to prison, and who pathologically compare themselves to Michael Jordan. You can have those guys though and you get plenty of them. It's not for everyone.

[superdave]

In fact me and the boys were just commenting on the fact that Austin Rivers is about to be become Duke's new villain poster boy.

If he's as good as they say, Duke will get even more looks from recruits who shouldnt be looking.

[Ocracoke_Bound]

. . . (indeed, we recruited all of them but Zeller at some point). . . . .

Interesting. Why would we not have recruited Zeller? Outstanding and conscientious Student (First Team Academic All-American). Excellent and capable Big Man/Athlete. Seems to me that if we didn't recruit him - then we should have. Why in the world would we not have recruited him?

[Duvall]

Interesting. Why would we not have recruited Zeller? Outstanding and conscientious Student (First Team Academic All-American). Excellent and capable Big Man/Athlete. Seems to me that if we didn't recruit him - then we should have. As a matter of fact, he seems just our type. Why in the world would we not have recruited him?

Not sure. Too busy pursuing Greg Monroe maybe? I don't know.

[enick66]

If Jalen Rose had said, "Duke recruits players from affluent families and that turned me off," that would be one thing. What he said in his interview for the special on Sunday was that he felt Duke players were "Uncle Tom's." I think that is a direct shot at Grant Hill, Tony Lang, Brian Davis, Ron Burt, and Kenny Blakeney.

The interview he used the term "Uncle Tom" in was a recent interview, saying that is how he used to feel about them. I have heard nothing where he says he feels differently now. Until he explains or apologizes for the use of "Uncle Tom" or explains why he was wrong for thinking that, I'll believe Rose is a total idiot and that he is taking direct shots at the African-American Duke players from that era.

[Rich]

Interesting. Why would we not have recruited Zeller?

Coach K prefers humans to robots! :rolleyes:

[tommy]

Second, Jalen's clarification of his initial "Uncle Tom" comment as meaning that "They recruit black players from polished families, accomplished families," hits on an extraordinarily troubling, and persistent, stereotype that has been perpetuated. Indeed, even President Obama has spoken out against the ludicrousy of having accepted a mindsight that "polished, accomplished families" are somehow less authentically black (or, worse, have in so doing sold out their black identity -- "Uncle Tom.")

You're right. But besides the insidious and destructive power of that type of thinking, Rose is just flat out wrong. Just off the top of my head, and just in the general era in which he was recruited and played, did Chris Carrawell come from a "polished, accomplished family?" Did Corey Maggette? William Avery?

Like so many TV talking heads who can't be bothered to do any actual research or back up their opinions with actual facts, Rose just perpetuates stereotypes and misinformation. Of course, there will be no consequences to him, and nobody on TV will call him out and put him in his place.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

You're right. But besides the insidious and destructive power of that type of thinking, Rose is just flat out wrong. Just off the top of my head, and just in the general era in which he was recruited and played, did Chris Carrawell come from a "polished, accomplished family?" Did Corey Maggette? William Avery?

Like so many TV talking heads who can't be bothered to do any actual research or back up their opinions with actual facts, Rose just perpetuates stereotypes and misinformation. Of course, there will be no consequences to him, and nobody on TV will call him out and put him in his place.

I have to say that Jalen Rose was one of my favorite commentators right up to this quotation of his. It is so wrong on so many levels I don't even begin to know where to start with the critique.

My response to Jalen would simply be: You (Jalen) are blindfolded sitting in a room. I tell you that a black man just walked into the room. What do you know about him?

[pause]

[pause] [pause]

[pause] [pause] [pause]

[SupaDave]

You're right. But besides the insidious and destructive power of that type of thinking, Rose is just flat out wrong. Just off the top of my head, and just in the general era in which he was recruited and played, did Chris Carrawell come from a "polished, accomplished family?" Did Corey Maggette? William Avery?

Like so many TV talking heads who can't be bothered to do any actual research or back up their opinions with actual facts, Rose just perpetuates stereotypes and misinformation. Of course, there will be no consequences to him, and nobody on TV will call him out and put him in his place.

To be honest it's just the whole clean cut thing - which until the Fab 5 - most teams implemented. There are plenty of other kids who didn't want to do the clean cut thing at Duke. Throw in beating UNLV and you've got a stark contrast between the three programs. And that's just how it was billed.

Fisher let his whole team be Nolan - they just all happened to be black with baggy shorts and the "oh so sweet" black socks. Larry Johnson had a gold tooth and his dunks put Blake Griffin to shame with their tenacity - as far as stereotypes go, it was easy to paint Duke as "Butler" against these teams.

The media does have a HUGE hand in this - but at the same time - so does basketball history. I doubt very seriously - other than the last shot - that I remember more of last year's National Championship than the win over UNLV which just absolutely had me stunned. Last year I just breathed a sigh of relief at the end. It will always be about the season last year more for me. But the year we beat UNLV - wow - that squad IS the most monstrous thing I've ever seen and it's spoiled me and my friends for even the years that come.

[taiw93]

The Fab Five is correct to a certain extent. Duke does focus its recruiting almost exclusively on kids who value academics and being a part of a structured and very team-oriented atmosphere (who are also the type of kids more likely to be attracted to Duke themselves). And while that may be a "turn-off" for Jalen and players of his ilk, I am very content with this recruiting strategy. It has worked out fine so far, and plus, we're a top 10 academic school, and we should not totally sacrifice our academic reputations to recruit the Derrick Roses of the world (not to pick on D-Rose, whom I love as a player, but he did have those SAT cheating issues...). If our recruiting approach continues to bring in recruits like Nolan, Kyrie, Austin, etc (as players AND as people), then we're clearly doing something right.

And P.S., Carolina recruits the EXACT SAME type of kids, though does seem to make more exceptions.

[weezie]

Larry Johnson had a gold tooth and his dunks put Blake Griffin to shame with their tenacity

YEAH! Let's see Blake put on a dress and a sunhat and try those dunks again! ;)

[SupaDave]

And P.S., Carolina recruits the EXACT SAME type of kids, though does seem to make more exceptions.

I'll always give Roy a little props for rescinding JameSon Curry's schollie. That was a HUGE decision at the time.

[LSanders]

Hmmm ... Been sitting here trying to think of people whose opinions actually mean less to me than those of Jalen Rose. Try it. It's a lot harder than you might think.

So far, I've got:

1) Erkel
2) Any "Housewife" from any location
3) The guy at Starbucks who knows all the baristas by name
4) Anyone from Hollywood with a Twitter account
5) The GEICO lizard
6) The inventor of Sham-Wow
7) Anyone whose last name is Lohan

Granted, it's a work in progress. But, you get the idea.

[NSDukeFan]

to say that you are not missing out is obviously wrong. there are plenty of good kids out there that would value what Duke has to offer and would offer Duke something great in return.
Duke just does not have enough scholarships to get all the good kids out there that would value what Duke has to offer and would offer Duke something great in return. I will trust coach K and his staff to find the best fits. He has a pretty good track record.

I agree that we go after some of the same kids. I also agree that going after kids that come from stable backgrounds benefits the program and ultimately the schools image. I have no problem with that. I think the point is, UNC players seem to put their personalities out there a bit more than the Duke players. Perhaps you think UNC players are idiots for dancing around and carrying on over on the bench, but I have no problem with that. I enjoy seeing kids smile and have fun. I have heard criticism on this board of UNC players doing these things. Duke kids seem to act as if they are in the military. Perhaps rightly so due to K's background.

You will always hear criticism of anything any UNC player or coach does that is goofy on this board. I believe it is called Duke Basketball Report. I agree with -jk that you should take a look at Duke Blue Planet sometime, countdown to craziness, watch Nolan Smith at any time, take a look at Kyrie and Josh (especially) on the bench, watch Mason after a dunk. They all seem to express enthusiasm and enjoyment at playing on the team, but act in a professional manner and don't tend to do much showboating. I am OK with that and hope Duke continues to recruit the great players and people they have. They are so much fun to cheer for.

[weezie]

Hmmm ... Been sitting here trying to think of people whose opinions actually mean less to me than those of Jalen Rose. Try it. It's a lot harder than you might think.

So far, I've got:

1) Erkel
2) Any "Housewife" from any location
3) The guy at Starbucks who knows all the baristas by name
4) Anyone from Hollywood with a Twitter account
5) The GEICO lizard
6) The inventor of Sham-Wow
7) Anyone whose last name is Lohan

Granted, it's a work in progress. But, you get the idea.

I think you might have said their opinions mean MORE to you than the musings of one Jalen Rose. But anyway.

8) Anyone from the current cast of Celebrity Apprentice
9) Richard "The hole digger" Phelps
10) Stuart "I'm a Clown" Scott
11) That mean lady from the lunch line in fourth grade who always gave me way too many peas.

[jdj4duke]

From the linked story- "And I hated everything I felt Duke stood for. Schools like Duke didn’t recruit players like me."

So, perhaps Jalen would be so good as to expound on what Duke stood/stands for? I thought I had a pretty good idea, but clearly Jalen is more familiar with the University than I ever expected. Let's just dismiss his assumption that he knows or understands what Duke stands for.

As for recruiting players like him, maybe his definition of player should include some of the other attributes which we expect to see in Duke players (and UNC players for the most part- McCants being one of a handful of notable exceptions).

I have generally liked Rose's commentary and reporting, and he comes across as a pretty agreeable guy. Dredging up his old opinions as some kind of youthful revelation untempered by 20 years in the world is silly. Maybe it would have been a better for him to have, at some point, said that sure, "I hated Duke at the time, I hated their 'Uncle Tom' players who owned my team, but having seen some of the world and grown up a bit, I can now appreciate some of the accomplishments and standards of one of my fiercest rivals". But nope, he stays firmly anchored.

And why anyway would he find it obligatory to spend so much time on Duke? Oh- yeah- Duke not only didn't recruit him, but our little preppies, step and fetchers, and ministerial students trashed his team. 3 times I think, Guess he never got over it. He should hang with Nate and C'well a bit and try out his assumptions about Duke recruiting and players on them.

I still have my all-time favorite shirt "You Can Talk the Game. We Can Play".

[LSanders]

That lunch lady sounds cold, Dude!!

RE: The list ... I can't honestly say there's any opinion lower than that of a Lohan, so even Jalen gets a nod above that brood.

[AZLA]

Hmmm ... Been sitting here trying to think of people whose opinions actually mean less to me than those of Jalen Rose. Try it. It's a lot harder than you might think.

So far, I've got:

1) Erkel
2) Any "Housewife" from any location
3) The guy at Starbucks who knows all the baristas by name
4) Anyone from Hollywood with a Twitter account
5) The GEICO lizard
6) The inventor of Sham-Wow
7) Anyone whose last name is Lohan

Granted, it's a work in progress. But, you get the idea.

1) Erkel -- Erkel is a good baller and even started his own fashion sense. Nerd persecution must end.

2) Any "Housewife" from any location -- Yes, but housewives can be muted. But then so can Rose.

3) The guy at Starbucks who knows all the baristas by name -- Oh, you mean that guy who pretends to be writing a novel but is really just reading Hollywood Tweets?

4) Anyone from Hollywood with a Twitter account -- C'mon, that guy at Starbucks needs something to do.

5) The GEICO lizard -- He's got a charming down-under accent, can offer discounted insurance, gets confused as Stanley from the one night stand, and probably carpools with Warren Buffett. That's kinda cool.

6) The inventor of Sham-Wow -- If this guy can convince millions of Americans to pay 10 times more money for a glorified paper towel, he's got to be more interesting the Rose.

7) Anyone whose last name is Lohan -- Lindsey is for looking, but careful here, we may get sued for libel.

Seriously though, it's interesting to look at Rose's film promotional strategy. Piggy-back on Duke hate. Release PR statements and interviews the week prior to selection Sunday and the NCAA Tournament. His business intentions are obvious, and yes, this type of statement is going to create the hype and uproar he's seeking. I mean, look at this thread and post we're building. It's all about getting eyeballs to the "documentary."

Questions I have are -- why didn't Webber talk? Does he really think he HAS that much credibility to protect for his own personal brand?

What's ABC / ESPN'S tolerance for this type of talk?

To me his sentiments smack of insecurity and resentment of so many social elements that go beyond just his put down of Duke and its players. It's probably why when Hurley was destroying Rose's inner child at Cameron Indoor, that he turned to the fans and yelled, "s**k my ----" to which the fans chanted, "It's just isn't big enough."

[kong123]

what are you the most angry about? the comments about Duke or the racist comments from a public figure who works for ESPN?

[Duvall]

what are you the most angry about?

Being trolled, poorly.

[wilson]

what are you the most angry about? the comments about Duke or the racist comments from a public figure who works for ESPN?For most of us, I think the two are inseparable.
On the one hand, Duke gets stereotyped as a bastion of privilege and elitism all the time, with little even token dissent in the public discourse most of the time.
On the other hand, it's OK to deploy racism and prejudiced, totally unfair over-simplified reads of our students and players to make some sort of supposedly pithy comment about "the Duke way"? That's terribly hypocritical, unfair to our university and program, and damaging to legitimate public discourse about institutions and people that really are examples of prejudice and exclusion.
I'll admit that (particularly on these boards) we can be a little thin-skinned about all the Duke hate, but when the "marketability" of Duke hate goes so far that a guy like Jalen Rose can say stuff like this and not only get away with it, but elicit chuckles and even genuine agreement from the general public (I frankly don't care how it plays with the average recruit, because K and his staff are still handling that just fine), it really pisses me off.

[AZLA]

I'm not angry about anything, where did you read anger or are you projecting? You must be. I'm actually interested in the documentary.

[jafarr1]

I think you might have said their opinions mean MORE to you than the musings of one Jalen Rose. But anyway.

8) Anyone from the current cast of Celebrity Apprentice
9) Richard "The hole digger" Phelps
10) Stuart "I'm a Clown" Scott
11) That mean lady from the lunch line in fourth grade who always gave me way too many peas.

And Hugh Jackman.

[hurley1]

Rose isn't a thug and by all accounts his head is screwed on right. He says that's how he felt as a inner city 18 year old. Does that make him a thug? I don't think so. Does it make him right? Not at all. But it still doesn't change how an 18 year old kid FEELS. And as black kid who grew up in Durham I can tell you that his sentiment is FAR from a novelty.

However, it is genuinely gone today. In fact me and the boys were just commenting on the fact that Austin Rivers is about to be become Duke's new villain poster boy. He's JJ and then some...

FYI - Duke recruited Chris Webber for three years so please let's be a little more civil.

rose had an opportunity to take back those words he said when he was 18 years old TODAY, and he didn't.........nothing has changed with him......i am very civil, but, also straight up......duke didn't go after webber hard.......no way webber could handle the classroom at duke....

[NashvilleDevil]

rose had an opportunity to take back those words he said when he was 18 years old TODAY, and he didn't.........nothing has changed with him......i am very civil, but, also straight up......duke didn't go after webber hard.......no way webber could handle the classroom at duke....

Actually Duke went after Webber real hard. Chris is a smart dude I'm sure he could handle the course load at Duke.

[wilson]

Actually Duke went after Webber real hard. Chris is a smart dude I'm sure he could handle the course load at Duke.He couldn't even count timeouts! How could he possibly have stayed eligible at Duke?

[hurley1]

If Jalen Rose had said, "Duke recruits players from affluent families and that turned me off," that would be one thing. What he said in his interview for the special on Sunday was that he felt Duke players were "Uncle Tom's." I think that is a direct shot at Grant Hill, Tony Lang, Brian Davis, Ron Burt, and Kenny Blakeney.

The interview he used the term "Uncle Tom" in was a recent interview, saying that is how he used to feel about them. I have heard nothing where he says he feels differently now. Until he explains or apologizes for the use of "Uncle Tom" or explains why he was wrong for thinking that, I'll believe Rose is a total idiot and that he is taking direct shots at the African-American Duke players from that era.

i absolutely agree.....all the fab 5 were was a bunch of unlv wannabees.....now, you want to talk about thugs...unlv set the thug bar as high as it could go......REMEMBER, the fab 5 won absolutely nothing and duke beat them 5 times........hurley owned that disrespectful bunch......i remember them very well......

[Nugget]

rose had an opportunity to take back those words he said when he was 18 years old TODAY, and he didn't.........nothing has changed with him......i am very civil, but, also straight up......duke didn't go after webber hard.......no way webber could handle the classroom at duke....

Do you have some specific information to back up that accusation because it sure does not at all jibe with my recollection.

I was a senior in 91 and sat about 4 rows behind Webber when he visited for the LSU game that year and I know there was major buzz on campus about recruiting him hard. By all accounts we were in his final three with Detroit and Michigan.

I also recall Webber being touted as a reasonably strong student.

If Detroit Country Day was good enough to prepare Shane Battier for Duke, it was certainly good enough to prepare Webber.

Absent some specific support for your assertion, I find it as lazy and stereotypical as Rose's comments.

[NashvilleDevil]

He couldn't even count timeouts! How could he possibly have stayed eligible at Duke?

On court intelligence is a little different. But for hurley1 to say he couldn't handle the classes at Duke based on zero evidence is ridiculous. I guess everyone overlooks that Webber went to the same high school as Battier.

[wilson]

On court intelligence is a little different. But for hurley1 to say he couldn't handle the classes at Duke based on zero evidence is ridiculous. I guess everyone overlooks that Webber went to the same high school as Battier.I was only making a joke. I totally agree with your read of the situation.

[hurley1]

1) Erkel -- Erkel is a good baller and even started his own fashion sense. Nerd persecution must end.

2) Any "Housewife" from any location -- Yes, but housewives can be muted. But then so can Rose.

3) The guy at Starbucks who knows all the baristas by name -- Oh, you mean that guy who pretends to be writing a novel but is really just reading Hollywood Tweets?

4) Anyone from Hollywood with a Twitter account -- C'mon, that guy at Starbucks needs something to do.

5) The GEICO lizard -- He's got a charming down-under accent, can offer discounted insurance, gets confused as Stanley from the one night stand, and probably carpools with Warren Buffett. That's kinda cool.

6) The inventor of Sham-Wow -- If this guy can convince millions of Americans to pay 10 times more money for a glorified paper towel, he's got to be more interesting the Rose.

7) Anyone whose last name is Lohan -- Lindsey is for looking, but careful here, we may get sued for libel.

Seriously though, it's interesting to look at Rose's film promotional strategy. Piggy-back on Duke hate. Release PR statements and interviews the week prior to selection Sunday and the NCAA Tournament. His business intentions are obvious, and yes, this type of statement is going to create the hype and uproar he's seeking. I mean, look at this thread and post we're building. It's all about getting eyeballs to the "documentary."

Questions I have are -- why didn't Webber talk? Does he really think he HAS that much credibility to protect for his own personal brand?

What's ABC / ESPN'S tolerance for this type of talk?

To me his sentiments smack of insecurity and resentment of so many social elements that go beyond just his put down of Duke and its players. It's probably why when Hurley was destroying Rose's inner child at Cameron Indoor, that he turned to the fans and yelled, "s**k my ----" to which the fans chanted, "It's just isn't big enough."

LMAO !!!!!!!!!......hurley whipped rose like a pimp collecting money.....and he still hasn't gotten over it.....one thing that can't be ignored......back in the early 90"s ( and especially just before that time ) basketball was considered to be a black kid's game....hurley and lattener had ALOT to do with changing that perspective....

[hurley1]

Actually Duke went after Webber real hard. Chris is a smart dude I'm sure he could handle the course load at Duke.

apparently you have forgotten about the time out...and there were no timeouts.....webber's shining moment.....how many duke players have you ever seen do that ????.....

[NashvilleDevil]

apparently you have forgotten about the time out...and there were no timeouts.....webber's shining moment.....how many duke players have you ever seen do that ????.....

I haven't forgotten about the timeout because it allowed the team I hate the most win the title. But like I said above intelligence on the court had nothing to do with how a player performs in the classroom. Again Webber went to the same high school as Battier so I think he would have done well with classes at Duke. Also Michigan is an excellent school as well.

[NashvilleDevil]

LMAO !!!!!!!!!......hurley whipped rose like a pimp collecting money.....and he still hasn't gotten over it.....one thing that can't be ignored......back in the early 90"s ( and especially just before that time ) basketball was considered to be a black kid's game....hurley and lattener had ALOT to do with changing that perspective....

So Larry Bird had nothing to do with changing peoples perspectives of basketball?

[Atlanta Duke]

first, there were 2 teams in the early 90's i absolutely couldn't stand.......unlv and the fab 5....both were nothing but a blight on college basketball.........

And both get documentaries this weekend while all UNC and Duke do is keep winning - controversy sells

[wilson]

So Larry Bird had nothing to do with changing peoples perspectives of basketball?...or Pete Maravich?

[hurley1]

Do you have some specific information to back up that accusation because it sure does not at all jibe with my recollection.

I was a senior in 91 and sat about 4 rows behind Webber when he visited for the LSU game that year and I know there was major buzz on campus about recruiting him hard. By all accounts we were in his final three with Detroit and Michigan.

I also recall Webber being touted as a reasonably strong student.

If Detroit Country Day was good enough to prepare Shane Battier for Duke, it was certainly good enough to prepare Webber.

Absent some specific support for your assertion, I find it as lazy and stereotypical as Rose's comments.

I SAW the way webber carried himslef on the court.....wouldn't have worked at duke.....i HEARD his smack talk in interviews.....wouldn't have worked at duke.....i SAW the kind of team he chose to play with......just the opposite of duke.....as far as his smarts.....back then college basketball had gotten so corrupt nobody cared if players could even read or write......unlv had 2 players at that time that were recruited through a prison fence.....i believed nothing i heard about a kids smarts back then because 99% of the time is was a bunch of bull.......not a webber fan and i find it very hard to believe things would have worked out for him a duke.....

[hurley1]

...or Pete Maravich?

i didn't say they were the only ones, but, when hurley and lattener dismantled unlv, that made a statement for college basketball that was heard all over the country.....it changed many peoples perspective about things......and, it made duke's stock skyrocket....

[hurley1]

On court intelligence is a little different. But for hurley1 to say he couldn't handle the classes at Duke based on zero evidence is ridiculous. I guess everyone overlooks that Webber went to the same high school as Battier.

i have people who went to the same high school as me that are on death row for murder......what does that say about me ????.......nothing.....

[NashvilleDevil]

i have people who went to the same high school as me that are on death row for murder......what does that say about me ????.......nothing.....

Actually your ridiculous comments about Jalen Rose and Chris Webber tell a lot about you.

[hurley1]

And both get documentaries this weekend while all UNC and Duke do is keep winning - controversy sells

sadly, it indicates just how dumb our society is.....and was.....both unlv and the fab 5 were a disgrace to basketball......both programs suffered greatly because of these teams.....that should be the subject of the documentary....i bet coach k has zero respect for either team.....i am sure he feels just as i do.....

[hurley1]

Actually your ridiculous comments about Jalen Rose and Chris Webber tell a lot about you.

really, what does it tell ???..that i believe college ballplayers should be respectful and carry themselves in a respectful manner ????...what else ????......i just don't get your obsession with webber and rose.......are you also obsessed with the unlv bunch ???.....i can't stand either....

[NashvilleDevil]

really, what does it tell ???..that i believe college ballplayers should be respectful and carry themselves in a respectful manner ????...what else ????......i just don't get your obsession with webber and rose.......are you also obsessed with the unlv bunch ???.....i can't stand either....

Your comment that Webber could not handle the course load at Duke. How do you know that Webber could not excel as a Duke student? Because he went to Michigan? Because he called a timeout his team didn't have in a pressure packed moment? Because he played with a swagger that a lot of people did not like? Please explain from everything I have read and observed about Webber he is an intelligent guy.

And when they weren't playing Duke I liked watching the Fab 5. I enjoyed the trash talk and the swagger they had on the court. For all your talk about trash talk, Duke had one of the biggest trash talkers in college in Christian Laettner.

[wilson]

For all your talk about trash talk, Duke had one of the biggest trash talkers in college in Christian Laettner.J.J. Redick is in that club too.

[Atlanta Duke]

sadly, it indicates just how dumb our society is.....and was.....both unlv and the fab 5 were a disgrace to basketball......both programs suffered greatly because of these teams.....that should be the subject of the documentary....i bet coach k has zero respect for either team.....i am sure he feels just as i do.....

Given the beat down UNLV administered to Duke in 1990 I think K respects that UNLV team, which this link to his comments in the upcoming HBO show on UNLV appears to confirm

http://www.hbo.com/sports/runnin-rebels-of-unlv/video/mike-krzyzewski

[weezie]

Duke had one of the biggest trash talkers in college in Christian Laettner.

God love him! :D

[hurley1]

Your comment that Webber could not handle the course load at Duke. How do you know that Webber could not excel as a Duke student? Because he went to Michigan? Because he called a timeout his team didn't have in a pressure packed moment? Because he played with a swagger that a lot of people did not like? Please explain from everything I have read and observed about Webber he is an intelligent guy.

And when they weren't playing Duke I liked watching the Fab 5. I enjoyed the trash talk and the swagger they had on the court. For all your talk about trash talk, Duke had one of the biggest trash talkers in college in Christian Laettner.

i have never seen a duke player make an idiot of himself in a television interview.....these people you adore did it every time......in fact, it got so bad they quit putting the mike in front of them.....here is really where you and i disagree....

And when they weren't playing Duke I liked watching the Fab 5. I enjoyed the trash talk and the swagger they had on the court.

i hold a higher standard for players than you do......nothing will change...let's move on.....

[NashvilleDevil]

God love him! :D

The best. I still think echoes of my family yelling after his last second shots against UConn and Kentucky are reverberating in our old neighborhood.

[hurley1]

Given the beat down UNLV administered to Duke in 1990 I think K respects that UNLV team, which this link to his comments in the upcoming HBO show on UNLV appears to confirm

http://www.hbo.com/sports/runnin-rebels-of-unlv/video/mike-krzyzewski

the average age of the unlv players on that team was about 24 years old.....2 were recuited through a prison fence.....coach k may be doing the classy thing, however, there is no way he would have allowed a single player off of that unlv team in a duke uniform.....and remember, duke came back in 1991 and ...my finest moment as a duke fan.....

[NashvilleDevil]

i hold a higher standard for players than you do......nothing will change...let's move on.....

You win. You are a much better person than I am because I like basketball players that have a little swagger. Guys like JJ, Christian, Webber, Jalen, Nolan, J-Will, Kyrie.

[kong123]

the truth is, we defend our own. we may end up being hypocrites in the process, but it is a natural response.

calling a young player like Weber a thug, IMHO, is close to racist. Someone mentioned that he may have been a decent student and could have performed the school work at Duke and you quickly shot him down. That isn't giving the young man the benefit of the doubt.

having said that, the fab 5 took money and ultimately took the Michigan basketball program down with him. but, if you look at the bigger picture, he represented a large number of basketball players across the country. he was a role model. while he has done things that were not on the up and up, I imagine he has done more things for more people than all of us combined. That doesn't mean we forgive and forget his mistakes, but it does demonstrate a different side of the man.

The majority here have never walked a step in his shoes. We have never faced some of the highs and the lows that he has faced growing up and throughout his basketball career. I think these guys were being honest about a moment in their lives 20 years ago. If we are honest, we said things and did things twenty years ago that we now regret and wish we didn't do.

No need to get so angry about it. Both UNC and Duke got the best of them. They are just a footnote along the way.

[NashvilleDevil]

calling a young player like Weber a thug, IMHO, is close to racist. Someone mentioned that he may have been a decent student and could have performed the school work at Duke and you quickly shot him down. That isn't giving the young man the benefit of the doubt.



You got the wrong person. I never called Webber a thug nor did I say that he could not handle the course load at Duke.

[kong123]

sorry, i erased your quote shortly after posting. i quoted the wrong person. my apologies.

[Deslok]

Just a follow up on the recruitment of Webber, I can very much recall his final visit to Duke and there was a general feeling of giddiness because we thought we'd landed him. He had, according to scuttlebutt of the time, even been discussing with the players who hosted him the money that Michigan boosters(Ed Martin as it turns out) were offering his way that he was going to turn down to come to Duke. When he, and the rest of the Fab 5 did end up at Michigan, it was disappointing, but also seemed only a question of time before the NCAA investigations got underway. But we wanted him in the worst way and were very disappointed when he didn't end up at Duke.

[Herbie]

I haven't posted on this board since 1998, back when Julio and Bos were anticipating the site's it's 1 million hit, but here goes...

The classic tshirt reference made by jdj4duke just brought me back. It was the absolute perfect way to sum up the confidence and arrogance of the likes of Laettner and Hurley and the swagger of that team.

From the encyclopedia of Duke Basketball:
"After that game (the NCAA final vs Michigan), Hurley pulled ut a T-shirt with the message "You can talk the game, but can you play the game?" on the front, and "Duke, we can play the game" on the back. It was a reference to severa inflammatory comments made by the Michigan freshmen before the Final Four".

The best Duke hoops related slogan for years until Nike came out last year with the "Order Has Been Retored" campaign.

[LSanders]

i have people who went to the same high school as me that are on death row for murder......what does that say about me ????

That you didn't get caught?

(Hey ... We kid with love!!!)

[hurley1]

the truth is, we defend our own. we may end up being hypocrites in the process, but it is a natural response.

calling a young player like Weber a thug, IMHO, is close to racist. Someone mentioned that he may have been a decent student and could have performed the school work at Duke and you quickly shot him down. That isn't giving the young man the benefit of the doubt.

having said that, the fab 5 took money and ultimately took the Michigan basketball program down with him. but, if you look at the bigger picture, he represented a large number of basketball players across the country. he was a role model. while he has done things that were not on the up and up, I imagine he has done more things for more people than all of us combined. That doesn't mean we forgive and forget his mistakes, but it does demonstrate a different side of the man.

The majority here have never walked a step in his shoes. We have never faced some of the highs and the lows that he has faced growing up and throughout his basketball career. I think these guys were being honest about a moment in their lives 20 years ago. If we are honest, we said things and did things twenty years ago that we now regret and wish we didn't do.

No need to get so angry about it. Both UNC and Duke got the best of them. They are just a footnote along the way.

i understand what you are pointing out and i totally agree......however, there is another side.....one that is very important......both michigan and unlv KNEW their teams were as illegal as they come...these two teams got their schools gutted......the coaches knew it, the players knew it, they all knew it.....they knew that every victory they achieved was tainted and not a complete victory........they also knew that duke was completely above board and were playing by the rules.....and they did everything and used every opportunity they could to disrespect the rules and especially duke, which was a role model for playing by the rules.....they exibited, in my opinion, the lowest form of character that a team or athlete can exibit.....to bloat while you cheat......and webber and rose were just as bad as johnson and anthony..... i had a front row seat and saw it all......as far as me being a racist.....nothing could be farther from the truth......i am just passioniate about character in young people and playing by the rules..which is the main reason i am a duke fan......

[hurley1]

that you didn't get caught?

(hey ... We kid with love!!!)

lol !!!!!....great line !!!!!

[wilko]

I really hate to admit this.

One of our DBR bretheren asked me to listen to a local radio show a few yrs ago for the express purpose of complaining about the host to management. So I gave it a listen and strangely, found myself liking his show.

The host was Bomani Jones. He has pet interest in bagging on Duke, but when he wasnt doing that he was pretty entertaining. In fact the main page had a blurb on his local show a while back that was mostly favorable.

Well his local gig ended and hes doing satellite radio out of Canada. You can find it here (http://www.hardcoresportsradio.com/).

Now I know Bomani's tendancy to put the screws to Duke, at least in his public comments, and his show next Mon. will focus on Roses' comments. (Hes doing Rome this week) I am really in no mood listen to "3hrs of stomp on Duke". The only thing that will make it bearable is if Duke Wins the ACC tourney.

So I encourage you guys and gals to listen and call in to rebuke some of the assertions he will undoubtedly make.

[Delaware]

Being trolled, poorly.

glad you said it...

[PADukeMom]

Add Chris Duhon to that list. Correct me if I am wrong but didn't Michigan have to vacate 2 seasons of wins?

[kong123]

glad you said it...

sorry you guys are so sensitive. put me on block if you cannot handle an opposing view point every once in a while.

[Sir Stealth]

LMAO !!!!!!!!!......hurley whipped rose like a pimp collecting money.....and he still hasn't gotten over it.....one thing that can't be ignored......back in the early 90"s ( and especially just before that time ) basketball was considered to be a black kid's game....hurley and lattener had ALOT to do with changing that perspective....

Frankly, I think it's embarrassing that we have pages of a thread filled up with the notorious code word "thug" and celebrating Duke's early 90's success as a breakthrough for white basketball, as if Laettner and Hurley were the equivalent of Texas Western or something. Ugly. This is Jalen Rose's vision of Duke, not the school and program that I cheer for.

[Duke79UNLV77]

A friend/former colleague of mine went to law school at Michigan and was friends with a number of the Fab 5 era players, particularly Juwan Howard. Webber was in fact very smart, Juwan sounded like a very nice guy, and Makhtar (no surprise) was crazy.

The level of corruption was even greater than was eventually uncovered. Apartments paid for, groceries, new SUVs, personal indiscretions covered up, and on and on. A lot of this had to be evident to anyone looking, but does local media want to bring down the state university sports team? (Don't think Duke would enjoy this level of protection.)

Also, the players were said to have no respect at all for Steve Fisher and just played for him because they were all getting paid. I hate to see the success Fisher is now having at SDSU.

I also recall Webber (who had great SATs) describing Cameron as basketball heaven after visiting Duke and comparing it very favorably to his Michigan visit. Gee, I wonder what changed his mind. Can you imagine if he were added to the 92 team??? I guess Rose would have called Webber an "Uncle Tom."

[Billy Dat]

I, for one, appreciate Jalen Rose's candor and wish more people in the public eye would say what they really feel. I think it's a very interesting peek into the perception that a lot of great players from tough backgrounds have about Duke. We often bemoan our inability to recruit and land players that fit this profile, so thinking about the implications of those feelings is a worthwhile exercise.

As Duke fans, I think we know there is some truth, and a lot of misconception in Rose's words. Chris Carrawell is a prime example of a kid from the kind of backround that Rose describes who had a great career and wound up on the bench next to the man himself. It's true that K takes a very close look at a kid's family life and usually places his bets with players from supportive homes. That doesn't mean two parents have to be there as a rule, but the majority of kids fall into that category.

But, I think it's interesting that Rose would articulate the perception, which I am sure is shared by many others from poor urban areas, that being recruited by Duke is not an attainable goal because K doesn't go after that kind of kid. It smacks of the "I'll reject you before you have a chance to reject me" feeling of insecurity that people experience in all walks of life. It also speaks to the immense challenge that someone not coming from means probably feels when they matriculate to Duke, amidst all the obvious wealth. It takes a special kind of kid to take it all in and embrace it rather than be intimidated by it.

[hurley1]

A friend/former colleague of mine went to law school at Michigan and was friends with a number of the Fab 5 era players, particularly Juwan Howard. Webber was in fact very smart, Juwan sounded like a very nice guy, and Makhtar (no surprise) was crazy.

The level of corruption was even greater than was eventually uncovered. Apartments paid for, groceries, new SUVs, personal indiscretions covered up, and on and on. A lot of this had to be evident to anyone looking, but does local media want to bring down the state university sports team? (Don't think Duke would enjoy this level of protection.)

Also, the players were said to have no respect at all for Steve Fisher and just played for him because they were all getting paid. I hate to see the success Fisher is now having at SDSU.

I also recall Webber (who had great SATs) describing Cameron as basketball heaven after visiting Duke and comparing it very favorably to his Michigan visit. Gee, I wonder what changed his mind. Can you imagine if he were added to the 92 team??? I guess Rose would have called Webber an "Uncle Tom."

i believe you just answered your own question......if webber chose michigan over duke and went there and received all kinds of illegal payments, maybe that's why he went to michigan......he certainly would NOT have received that at duke......are we gullable enough to believe that those illegal benifits played no role in webber's decision ???......i'm not......how do we brag on these players character and then discuss their endless corruption and illegal behavior ???......it can't be both ways....i have nothing personally against these players, i just have no respect for the way they carried out their business of participating in ncaa basketball, and from looking back, the ncaa had no respect for it either......webber was right in the middle of all this.....i am glad he didn't come to duke.....duke has never been associated with any situation like the one at michigan involving these fab 5 players....

[hurley1]

Frankly, I think it's embarrassing that we have pages of a thread filled up with the notorious code word "thug" and celebrating Duke's early 90's success as a breakthrough for white basketball, as if Laettner and Hurley were the equivalent of Texas Western or something. Ugly. This is Jalen Rose's vision of Duke, not the school and program that I cheer for.


in the real world that i live in, thug accurately describes some of our people.....in my opinion, a majority of players at unlv and michigan fit that description.....they fleeced the game of college basketball without any concern whatsoever for the game itself, their college, or the rules that dictate participation in this great game.....if you don't like thug, choose another term......altar boy certainly doesn't apply, and college student doesn't either....whether you want to admit it or not, when duke came back in 1991 and beat unlv, it did change basketball.......and, it did have a profound effect on the black/white situation in college basketball.......if you will remember, the hot topic just before duke beat unlv was prop. 42.....john thompson walked off of the court in early 1989 in protest to prop. 42.....there were rule changes soon after and all of a sudden, we had OBVIOUS non college students openly playing ncaa sports.....tarkanian at unlv recruited through a prison fence instead of through applications of legitimate college students.....the issue became swayed much too far in the wrong direction....but, there was a mindset being established that the game of college basketball could best be served by attracting the better players if academic standards could be manipulated for these non academic achieving athletes.....the 1991 duke team proved that that assumption was totally wrong, that the great game of college basketball could be played by bona fide college students at it's highest levels....the 1991 victory over unlv made masses of new duke fans that were mostly people who respected what being a college student and college athlete was all about, and at the same time created masses of duke haters who were for the most part people who had no regard for the academic end of being a college athlete..and jalen rose is the poster child for the latter group.......it is what it is......it had a profound effect on college basketball and duke basketball....and this effect became even stronger when duke went on to win the ncaa in 1991 and especially when they repeated in 1992......just so you will know, i raised a black child in my home and consider him to be my son.....he considers me to be his dad and his child is my grandson.....my viewpoint has nothing to do with race and everything to do with educational standards for ncaa athletes....i hope you better understand me now.....

[hurley1]

I, for one, appreciate Jalen Rose's candor and wish more people in the public eye would say what they really feel. I think it's a very interesting peek into the perception that a lot of great players from tough backgrounds have about Duke. We often bemoan our inability to recruit and land players that fit this profile, so thinking about the implications of those feelings is a worthwhile exercise.

As Duke fans, I think we know there is some truth, and a lot of misconception in Rose's words. Chris Carrawell is a prime example of a kid from the kind of backround that Rose describes who had a great career and wound up on the bench next to the man himself. It's true that K takes a very close look at a kid's family life and usually places his bets with players from supportive homes. That doesn't mean two parents have to be there as a rule, but the majority of kids fall into that category.

But, I think it's interesting that Rose would articulate the perception, which I am sure is shared by many others from poor urban areas, that being recruited by Duke is not an attainable goal because K doesn't go after that kind of kid. It smacks of the "I'll reject you before you have a chance to reject me" feeling of insecurity that people experience in all walks of life. It also speaks to the immense challenge that someone not coming from means probably feels when they matriculate to Duke, amidst all the obvious wealth. It takes a special kind of kid to take it all in and embrace it rather than be intimidated by it.

rose was all caught up in the anti- prop. 42 movement.......rose represented the kids that didn't belong in college basketball ( according to prop. 42 ) and the duke players represented the kids that did.....i can't put it any simplier than that......

[bigeastfan]

in the real world that i live in, thug accurately describes some of our people.....in my opinion, a majority of players at unlv and michigan fit that description.....they fleeced the game of college basketball without any concern whatsoever for the game itself, their college, or the rules that dictate participation in this great game.....if you don't like thug, choose another term......altar boy certainly doesn't apply, and college student doesn't either....whether you want to admit it or not, when duke came back in 1991 and beat unlv, it did change basketball.......and, it did have a profound effect on the black/white situation in college basketball.......if you will remember, the hot topic just before duke beat unlv was prop. 42.....john thompson walked off of the court in early 1989 in protest to prop. 42.....there were rule changes soon after and all of a sudden, we had OBVIOUS non college students openly playing ncaa sports.....tarkanian at unlv recruited through a prison fence instead of through applications of legitimate college students.....the issue became swayed much too far in the wrong direction....but, there was a mindset being established that the game of college basketball could best be served by attracting the better players if academic standards could be manipulated for these non academic achieving athletes.....the 1991 duke team proved that that assumption was totally wrong, that the great game of college basketball could be played by bona fide college students at it's highest levels....the 1991 victory over unlv made masses of new duke fans that were mostly people who respected what being a college student and college athlete was all about, and at the same time created masses of duke haters who were for the most part people who had no regard for the academic end of being a college athlete..and jalen rose is the poster child for the latter group.......it is what it is......it had a profound effect on college basketball and duke basketball....and this effect became even stronger when duke went on to win the ncaa in 1991 and especially when they repeated in 1992......just so you will know, i raised a black child in my home and consider him to be my son.....he considers me to be his dad and his child is my grandson.....my viewpoint has nothing to do with race and everything to do with educational standards for ncaa athletes....i hope you better understand me now.....

I think historical context is important in understanding Jalen's comments. Since the middle of the 20th century basketball has had a reputation of being a black man's game and an inner-city game. Athleticism and flair are some of the traits also associated with black men and basketball. The stereotype is that these young black men can run and jump but are not that bright and moonlight as "thugs." This stereotype is pervasive in sports. No doubt some black athletes try to live up to this stereotype. Think about how long it took for blacks to be accepted as coaches or quarterbacks in football.

White athletes are stereotyped as "smart", "heady", "disciplined. A program like Duke that has a disproportionate share of white players is viewed as "smart" and "heady." It might also appear that they don't want to recruit too many black players.

An inner-city player like Jalen ROse is described as a "thug" on this board for example. Why call him a thug? Has he committed any crimes?


From the vantage point of an 18 year old kid, it is easy to see why he might hate Duke.

[Sir Stealth]

in the real world that i live in, thug accurately describes some of our people.....in my opinion, a majority of players at unlv and michigan fit that description.....they fleeced the game of college basketball without any concern whatsoever for the game itself, their college, or the rules that dictate participation in this great game.....if you don't like thug, choose another term......altar boy certainly doesn't apply, and college student doesn't either....whether you want to admit it or not, when duke came back in 1991 and beat unlv, it did change basketball.......and, it did have a profound effect on the black/white situation in college basketball.......if you will remember, the hot topic just before duke beat unlv was prop. 42.....john thompson walked off of the court in early 1989 in protest to prop. 42.....there were rule changes soon after and all of a sudden, we had OBVIOUS non college students openly playing ncaa sports.....tarkanian at unlv recruited through a prison fence instead of through applications of legitimate college students.....the issue became swayed much too far in the wrong direction....but, there was a mindset being established that the game of college basketball could best be served by attracting the better players if academic standards could be manipulated for these non academic achieving athletes.....the 1991 duke team proved that that assumption was totally wrong, that the great game of college basketball could be played by bona fide college students at it's highest levels....the 1991 victory over unlv made masses of new duke fans that were mostly people who respected what being a college student and college athlete was all about, and at the same time created masses of duke haters who were for the most part people who had no regard for the academic end of being a college athlete..and jalen rose is the poster child for the latter group.......it is what it is......it had a profound effect on college basketball and duke basketball....and this effect became even stronger when duke went on to win the ncaa in 1991 and especially when they repeated in 1992......just so you will know, i raised a black child in my home and consider him to be my son.....he considers me to be his dad and his child is my grandson.....my viewpoint has nothing to do with race and everything to do with educational standards for ncaa athletes....i hope you better understand me now.....

Yes, I think I do better understand and appreciate that your focus is on being a true student-athlete rather than on race. It is completely appropriate to celebrate Duke's success with true student-athletes over rulebreaking teams such as the Fab 5 and UNLV. I think it's deplorable that Jalen Rose would view being being a student athlete at a good school, coming from a stable family, or apparently even being part of a program that would recruit such players, as being an "Uncle Tom." I just think that we need to be very sensitive to the exact perception that Rose speaks about (which I think is completely and utterly wrong) and not celebrate Duke's success as white players changing a "black kids'" game. So I appreciate your position, I just wish that a lot of the language that you used could have been avoided.

Ultimately, the choices that players like Webber and Howard made about the program they joined and how they conducted themselves in college did prove that they didn't belong in Duke's program. That still doesn't mean we should assume that Webber was necessarily a dumb thug who couldn't have succeeded at Duke, he just ultimately gave in to lesser temptations. At the same time, we should remember that our own Nolan Smith considers Juwan Howard a father figure due to the role that Howard played in raising him after his father died.

I love celebrating the triumph of the kind of program that Duke runs over the cheating, misconduct, and misplaced swagger that the Fab 5 represented, but if we overdo it as we paint the conflict as a complete contrast of black and white (figuratively, and unfortunately sometimes literally), then we can end up misrepresenting the what truly made the teams different in the same way that Jalen Rose does.

[kong123]

Yes, I think I do better understand and appreciate that your focus is on being a true student-athlete rather than on race. It is completely appropriate to celebrate Duke's success with true student-athletes over rulebreaking teams such as the Fab 5 and UNLV. I think it's deplorable that Jalen Rose would view being being a student athlete at a good school, coming from a stable family, or apparently even being part of a program that would recruit such players, as being an "Uncle Tom." I just think that we need to be very sensitive to the exact perception that Rose speaks about (which I think is completely and utterly wrong) and not celebrate Duke's success as white players changing a "black kids'" game. So I appreciate your position, I just wish that a lot of the language that you used could have been avoided.

Ultimately, the choices that players like Webber and Howard made about the program they joined and how they conducted themselves in college did prove that they didn't belong in Duke's program. That still doesn't mean we should assume that Webber was necessarily a dumb thug who couldn't have succeeded at Duke, he just ultimately gave in to lesser temptations. At the same time, we should remember that our own Nolan Smith considers Juwan Howard a father figure due to the role that Howard played in raising him after his father died.

I love celebrating the triumph of the kind of program that Duke runs over the cheating, misconduct, and misplaced swagger that the Fab 5 represented, but if we overdo it as we paint the conflict as a complete contrast of black and white (figuratively, and unfortunately sometimes literally), then we can end up misrepresenting the what truly made the teams different in the same way that Jalen Rose does.

this was my point, but I did not state it as clearly or as eloquently as you did. some still dislike the Fab Five because they were Duke's rival back in the day, but do not get carried away. The Fab Five did nothing to Duke to deserve to be called "thugs". Don't get me wrong, they did plenty wrong. This has been covered and covered and hopefully the ESPN special isn't a celebration of their time as much as it is a documentary of a period of time revolving around a group of black basketball players that took advantage of being taken advantage of. There is no need to try and further demonstrate the differences between the Fab Five and the Duke players. No one mistakes one for the other. Calling them "thugs" is not polite or politically correct. You called the Baylor kids "thugs" last year too. Just cause they do not act like a Duke player or look like a Duke player, that doesn't mean you should label them a "thug". We are all better than that and we should all remember that calling young men "thugs" is almost as bad as Rose calling a black Duke player an "Uncle Tom". What's the difference?

[enick66]

The problem with Rose's comments isn't that he hates Duke. Frankly, I expect he would and they were a huge rival at the time. It makes sense. Lots of guys hate Duke for lots of reasons that have been discussed on these boards ad-nauseum.

The problem is Rose referring to Duke's African-American players as "Uncle Tom's" without describing what he meant by that. "Uncle Tom" is an incredibly divisive term. If he just said that he hated the Duke guys because they're pretty boys and cocky, it would not be an issue. He called them "Uncle Tom's". What did Rose mean by that? Was he purposely invoking slavery and the book Uncle Tom's Cabin, or was he misusing a phrase he doesn't fully understand?

[wilko]

The Fab Five did nothing to Duke to deserve to be called "thugs". Don't get me wrong, they did plenty wrong. This has been covered and covered and hopefully the ESPN special isn't a celebration of their time as much as it is a documentary of a period of time revolving around a group of black basketball players that took advantage of being taken advantage of. There is no need to try and further demonstrate the differences between the Fab Five and the Duke players. No one mistakes one for the other.

This may be the best thing you have ever posted.

[oldnavy]

First for Kong: Duke and UNC are way more alike than we are different. UNC recruits basically the same type of players as Duke does, so Jalen's comments could easily be directed towards UNC. AND THAT IS A GOOD THING!!

Second, what troubles me about this is not that Jalen said what he said about Uncle Toms, because I am sure that is what he felt. What troubles me is that there is a segement of the population that still sees successful African Americans as some how, not representative of the race but as sell outs or Uncle Toms. When I see that I am saddend because I get the sense of hoplessness where there is boundless potential.

One of the best things that I ever did was join the military. In the Navy I quickly learned that we were all BLUE. Asians, African Americans, rednecks, yankees, mid western hicks, you name it, once we put on the uniform we we all US Navy - sailors (squids to our Marine jarhead brothers)!

I came from a very racial background, into an environment where performance and team work were the only things that mattered. I fell in love with it. I saw African Americans who came from the worst enviornments you could imagine EXCEL as leaders and shipmates because they were not judged by their skin tone, but by their performance. Uncle Toms? HELL NO!, they were men and women who pulled themselve up from their boot straps and made me a better man and leader as a result of getting to work alongside them.

I had two mentors in the Navy, one was a redneck country boy Captain from Alabama, and the other was a Black man, who is still a Captain (but who should make Admiral) from DC. Both were outstanding men who came from as different backgrounds as you could imagine. I love and respect both of them equally. There were many others along the way, but those two were special.

Not sure why I got off on this, but race issues evoke a strong response from me. Sorry.....

[NashvilleDevil]

was prop. 42

I think Prop 48 is what had John Thompson in a snit back in the late 80s

[killerleft]

I think historical context is important in understanding Jalen's comments. Since the middle of the 20th century basketball has had a reputation of being a black man's game and an inner-city game. Athleticism and flair are some of the traits also associated with black men and basketball. The stereotype is that these young black men can run and jump but are not that bright and moonlight as "thugs." This stereotype is pervasive in sports. No doubt some black athletes try to live up to this stereotype. Think about how long it took for blacks to be accepted as coaches or quarterbacks in football.

White athletes are stereotyped as "smart", "heady", "disciplined. A program like Duke that has a disproportionate share of white players is viewed as "smart" and "heady." It might also appear that they don't want to recruit too many black players.

An inner-city player like Jalen ROse is described as a "thug" on this board for example. Why call him a thug? Has he committed any crimes?


From the vantage point of an 18 year old kid, it is easy to see why he might hate Duke.

Historical context is not what you want. Historical context tells us that Michigan's basketball program has never recovered from the blow that the Fab Five dealt it. Any other part of the story pales in comparison.

That Jalen Rose would be allowed to make a documentary is sad. That is, unless said documentary spends much more time on the scandals than it does on the length of ballplayers' shorts. It would be like doing a documentary on Jeff Dahmer and focussing on his joke-telling ability rather than the gruesome crimes he committed. I, for one, will have a hard time grinning at the sanitized tale of a bunch of guys who never won anything (even with all that talent) except the hearts and minds of the textile industry.

[enick66]

Apparently Jalen will go on the BS Report with Bill Simmons this afternoon.

[COYS]

in the real world that i live in, thug accurately describes some of our people

Hurley, I certainly am not writing this response to claim that you are in some way racist. However, while I respect your understanding of the term "thug" to be devoid of racial undertones, I think it is unavoidable that many people, myself included, think that a better term than "thug" can be used in this situation simply because the vast majority of people DO perceive the word to possess negative connotations for young black men. In some ways, "thug" is the opposite of "Uncle Tom" (a term I also despise). I think your argument is still valid if you insert the term "cheaters" for "thugs."

As for Jalen Rose's use of the term "Uncle Tom," I am extremely disappointed that he decided to use such a term without qualifying it in some way (i.e. saying, "but I would never say that now," or, "but I want to emphasize my respect for the accomplishments on and off the court for Hill, Battier, and other black players who have been at Duke"). It is one thing for him to describe his feelings as an 18 year old. However, that is not justification all by itself for using that term. He must also show some ability to think critically about the way he once thought. Quite frankly, a good interviewer would call Rose to task for a comment like that if left unqualified. I think it would be a fair question to ask him directly if he would use that term now to characterize a player such as Grant Hill or current Duke players like Nolan Smith (or, if the interviewer is being really tough, throw President Obama into the mix).

Personally, I hope that the full documentary provides at least some critique of the "Uncle Tom" comment not because it is directed at Duke (Rose has felt this way for years and Duke has and will be fine), but because the term is archaic and attempts to denigrate black males for failing to abide by artificial codes of conduct.

[hurley1]

I think historical context is important in understanding Jalen's comments. Since the middle of the 20th century basketball has had a reputation of being a black man's game and an inner-city game. Athleticism and flair are some of the traits also associated with black men and basketball. The stereotype is that these young black men can run and jump but are not that bright and moonlight as "thugs." This stereotype is pervasive in sports. No doubt some black athletes try to live up to this stereotype. Think about how long it took for blacks to be accepted as coaches or quarterbacks in football.

White athletes are stereotyped as "smart", "heady", "disciplined. A program like Duke that has a disproportionate share of white players is viewed as "smart" and "heady." It might also appear that they don't want to recruit too many black players.

An inner-city player like Jalen ROse is described as a "thug" on this board for example. Why call him a thug? Has he committed any crimes?


From the vantage point of an 18 year old kid, it is easy to see why he might hate Duke.

he committed numerous illegal acts while playing at michigan.....some of these resulted in sanctions against the basketball program.....he was in it too.....a thug to me can be any race....i relate a thug to someone who lacks respect for rules and others....i put him in this group......i stand solidly behind every remark i have made about rose, the fab 5, and the unlv program in the early 90's.....i have no respect for the way any of these teams were run.....and, this is one thing that made me respect duke so highly....

[hurley1]

Hurley, I certainly am not writing this response to claim that you are in some way racist. However, while I respect your understanding of the term "thug" to be devoid of racial undertones, I think it is unavoidable that many people, myself included, think that a better term than "thug" can be used in this situation simply because the vast majority of people DO perceive the word to possess negative connotations for young black men. In some ways, "thug" is the opposite of "Uncle Tom" (a term I also despise). I think your argument is still valid if you insert the term "cheaters" for "thugs."

As for Jalen Rose's use of the term "Uncle Tom," I am extremely disappointed that he decided to use such a term without qualifying it in some way (i.e. saying, "but I would never say that now," or, "but I want to emphasize my respect for the accomplishments on and off the court for Hill, Battier, and other black players who have been at Duke"). It is one thing for him to describe his feelings as an 18 year old. However, that is not justification all by itself for using that term. He must also show some ability to think critically about the way he once thought. Quite frankly, a good interviewer would call Rose to task for a comment like that if left unqualified. I think it would be a fair question to ask him directly if he would use that term now to characterize a player such as Grant Hill or current Duke players like Nolan Smith (or, if the interviewer is being really tough, throw President Obama into the mix).

Personally, I hope that the full documentary provides at least some critique of the "Uncle Tom" comment not because it is directed at Duke (Rose has felt this way for years and Duke has and will be fine), but because the term is archaic and attempts to denigrate black males for failing to abide by artificial codes of conduct.

first, believe me, i am no racist.....my 17 year old son's pallbearers were 4 whites and 4 blacks, and i chose them all......i raised a black child......nothing about me is racist....i hope you believe that......cheater is fine, but, rose did more than just cheat.....he used every opportunity to attack what was good and within the rules of the game of college basketball......he spit on duke and their players constantly, with every chance he had and the uncle tom remark is one of the examples...and, he has never apoligized for that statement ...to me, he is more than just a cheater....i will not use the term thug again if it offends you......but, what is he, in my opinion ???....i guess a cheater who lacks character and respect for rules and true accomplishments.........i will say this....i believe rose is much more of a thug than hill, williams,brand,smith, and many other black duke players are uncle toms....and remember, he started this....:D

[hurley1]

Historical context is not what you want. Historical context tells us that Michigan's basketball program has never recovered from the blow that the Fab Five dealt it. Any other part of the story pales in comparison.

That Jalen Rose would be allowed to make a documentary is sad. That is, unless said documentary spends much more time on the scandals than it does on the length of ballplayers' shorts. It would be like doing a documentary on Jeff Dahmer and focussing on his joke-telling ability rather than the gruesome crimes he committed. I, for one, will have a hard time grinning at the sanitized tale of a bunch of guys who never won anything (even with all that talent) except the hearts and minds of the textile industry.

my sentiments exactly....

[NashvilleDevil]

Apparently Jalen will go on the BS Report with Bill Simmons this afternoon.

Then we know we won't get a good follow up question about he Uncle Tom comment. In fact Simmons will probably continue that meme.

[COYS]

first, believe me, i am no racist.....my 17 year old son's pallbearers were 4 whites and 4 blacks, and i chose them all......i raised a black child......nothing about me is racist....i hope you believe that......cheater is fine, but, rose did more than just cheat.....he used every opportunity to attack what was good and within the rules of the game of college basketball......he spit on duke and their players constantly, with every chance he had and the uncle tom remark is one of the examples...and, he has never apoligized for that statement ...to me, he is more than just a cheater....i will not use the term thug again if it offends you......but, what is he, in my opinion ???....i guess a cheater who lacks character and respect for rules and true accomplishments

You don't have to defend yourself from cries of racism. I never wanted my response to go there! I only wanted to offer an alternative to "thugs." I appreciate very much that you will consider an alternative! I like your last sentence as a way of describing Rose. Ironically, i think his lack of introspection causes him to appear at least as arrogant as he makes his elitists nemeses at Duke appear.

[Indoor66]

It seems to me that we have a mixture of interpretations of the meaning of Thug. In looking it up, I see that the differences are pretty significant. Maybe we need a common definition of terms going forward.

Urban Dictionary:
As Tupac defined it, a thug is someone who is going through struggles, has gone through struggles, and continues to live day by day with nothing for them. That person is a thug. and the life they are living is the thug life. A thug is NOT a gangster. Look up gangster (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gangster) and gangsta (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=gangsta). Not even CLOSE, my friend.
"That boy ain't a gangsta, fo'sho'. Look at how he walks, he's a thug. life. That's the saddest face I've seen in all my life as a teen."
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=thug

Wiki
Thug, a common criminal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime), who treats others violently and roughly, often for hire. Often a member of a gang, as an enforcer in organized crime, and misdemeanor.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thug


Dictionary.com
Thug
–noun
1.
a cruel or vicious ruffian, robber, or murderer.
2.
( sometimes initial capital letter file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/bbair/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image002.gif) one of a former group of professional robbers and murderers in India who (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/who) strangled their victims.
Use thug in a Sentence (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=Use+thug+in+a+Sentence&qsrc=2892&o=101993)
See images of thug (http://ask.reference.com/pictures?q=thug&o=102887&l=dse)
Search thug on the Web (http://ask.reference.com/web?q=thug&o=102886&l=dse)



Origin:
1800–10; < Hindi thag literally, rogue, cheat
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/thug


Merriam-Webster Dictionary
Definition of THUG
: a brutal ruffian or assassin : gangster (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gangster), tough (http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/tough)
— thug·gery \ˈthə-g(ə-)rē\ noun
— thug·gish \ˈthə-gish\ adjective
file:///C:/DOCUME%7E1/bbair/LOCALS%7E1/Temp/msohtmlclip1/01/clip_image003.jpgSee thug defined for English-language learners » (http://www.learnersdictionary.com/search/thug)
Examples of THUG


He was beaten and robbed by street thugs.
<the Mob boss regularly sent his thugs after people who were slow to pay their debts>

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/thug

[killerleft]

Hurley, I certainly am not writing this response to claim that you are in some way racist. However, while I respect your understanding of the term "thug" to be devoid of racial undertones, I think it is unavoidable that many people, myself included, think that a better term than "thug" can be used in this situation simply because the vast majority of people DO perceive the word to possess negative connotations for young black men. In some ways, "thug" is the opposite of "Uncle Tom" (a term I also despise). I think your argument is still valid if you insert the term "cheaters" for "thugs."

As for Jalen Rose's use of the term "Uncle Tom," I am extremely disappointed that he decided to use such a term without qualifying it in some way (i.e. saying, "but I would never say that now," or, "but I want to emphasize my respect for the accomplishments on and off the court for Hill, Battier, and other black players who have been at Duke"). It is one thing for him to describe his feelings as an 18 year old. However, that is not justification all by itself for using that term. He must also show some ability to think critically about the way he once thought. Quite frankly, a good interviewer would call Rose to task for a comment like that if left unqualified. I think it would be a fair question to ask him directly if he would use that term now to characterize a player such as Grant Hill or current Duke players like Nolan Smith (or, if the interviewer is being really tough, throw President Obama into the mix).

Personally, I hope that the full documentary provides at least some critique of the "Uncle Tom" comment not because it is directed at Duke (Rose has felt this way for years and Duke has and will be fine), but because the term is archaic and attempts to denigrate black males for failing to abide by artificial codes of conduct.

And then there are those of us who associate the word "thug" with anybody who was an associate of whatever character James Cagney was playing in a particular movie. I'm 58, and gangster (not "gangsta") movie reruns were common TV fodder during my younger days.

[hurley1]

And then there are those of us who associate the word "thug" with anybody who was an associate of whatever character James Cagney was playing in a particular movie. I'm 58, and gangster (not "gangsta") movie reruns were common TV fodder during my younger days.

i'm 52.....i don't think the young crowd understands our old school labels......we had a front row seat to all this we are discussing......some of them weren't even born......thankfully, i don't know of a single team out there now to compare to the fab 5 when it comes to disrespect and certainly not unlv.....

[COYS]

i'm 52.....i don't think the young crowd understands our old school labels......we had a front row seat to all this we are discussing......some of them weren't even born......thankfully, i don't know of a single team out there now to compare to the fab 5 when it comes to disrespect and certainly not unlv.....

Killer left and Hurley, I DO understand that thug means something different to you. I NEVER wanted to imply that I think that those who use the term "thug" are racist. I was just trying to show that "thug," when applied to young black men, can often contain negative connotations. Words evolve, of course, and this is one such evolution of the word thug. That is all.

[kong123]

IMHO, you cannot just be satisfied with what you think a word means. if you offend someone with your use of the word, you can choose to rethink using the word or you can just disregard someones feelings. its up to you......

[hurley1]

Killer left and Hurley, I DO understand that thug means something different to you. I NEVER wanted to imply that I think that those who use the term "thug" are racist. I was just trying to show that "thug," when applied to young black men, can often contain negative connotations. Words evolve, of course, and this is one such evolution of the word thug. That is all.

GOOD !!!!....it should contain negative connotations.....it should motivate young black males to carry themselves at a level of behavior that never allows anyone to even suggest that they are in the disrespected group of people referred to as thugs....look at nolan smith.....how stupid would someone look if they suggested that nolan was a thug ???....why is that ????...because of his character and the level of individual respect he commands.......in my opinon, the label thug has to be earned, it is not given....

[Billy Dat]

Interesting piece on the doc that goes into more depth than the Jalen quotes cited earlier.

http://www.annarbor.com/sports/um-basketball/jalen-rose-thought-duke-basketball-was-full-of-uncle-toms-plus-more-on-his-fab-five-documentary/

[jv001]

Interesting piece on the doc that goes into more depth than the Jalen quotes cited earlier.

http://www.annarbor.com/sports/um-basketball/jalen-rose-thought-duke-basketball-was-full-of-uncle-toms-plus-more-on-his-fab-five-documentary/

It gives me an idea of what kind of person Mr. Rose must be. Go Duke!

[killerleft]

IMHO, you cannot just be satisfied with what you think a word means. if you offend someone with your use of the word, you can choose to rethink using the word or you can just disregard someones feelings. its up to you......

I'll just give examples, you decide if I would be right in calling them thugs: Chris Paul, Tom Sheehey, and Makhtar N'diaye.

Or would you prefer I call them socially-challenged unconvicted felons? Or sucker-punching desperadoes?

[Mal]

I don't get it. We have 7 pages of mostly badmouthing the character of a guy who grew up a non-privileged black kid in Detroit, who never knew his own father, because at the age of 18, probably out of (pretty understandable) resentment of guys like Grant Hill, privileged black kids with famous fathers invested in fatherhood, he thought of them as sell outs? I mean, where's the controversy here? Who are we to be judging 18-year-old Jalen Rose? He's already explained those were his feelings as a kid. He's not going around publicly bashing Duke players or alums for not keeping it real enough as an adult, is he?

I thought a lot of stupid things as a high schooler, too. Thousands and thousands of collegiate athletes have played the system and profited from it. I didn't like the cocky attitude of the Fab Five and I think the negative impact they had on basketball's collective sartorial sense is ongoing and lamentable. But Rose isn't some uber villian.

Besides, this documentary is not about Duke, and it's not about Duke's players. It's about Michigan in the early '90's. That Rose would comment on his emotions toward Duke as a teenager on a team consistently frustrated by Duke's team, in a documentary about the Fab Five, does not mean he's going out of his way to throw mud at Duke in 2011.

In my humble opinion, I think we need a little thicker skin about this.

[hurley1]

It gives me an idea of what kind of person Mr. Rose must be. Go Duke!

FIRST,
Notice the picture of hurley with PERFECT DEFENSE on rose.....LITERALLY, one step ahead of him.....our present team would profit greatly if they had a little more hurley blood in them.....NOBODY intimidated bobby hurley....and i mean NOBODY....and the fab 5 hated him for that.....intimidation was a big part of the fab 5 game...

SECOND,
This group still hates duke TODAY...and used words aimed at laettner that couldn't be printed........WOW !!!.......age changes everyone, but, it hasn't changed these cats....

THIRD,
A CRACKHOUSE......20 YEARS AGO.....some of you younger folks may not realize, but, being in a crackhouse 20 years ago was ALOTTTTTTTTTTT different than being in a crack house today....not that many back then, and people who visited them were in a very select group.... !!!!!

FOURTH,
I can't wait to see if he makes any apology ( or any of them do ) for the damage they caused the great university of michigan and the game of college basketball as well......I'll bet they don't....we will see.....

Fifth,
They hated grant hill not because his daddy was nfl great calvin hill, and not because grant's mama roomed with hillary.....they hated grant because he kicked some serious booty when these 2 met...;)......he literally elevated himself above the best A game any of them had....is was amazing to watch....fascinating....

Sixth,
Hate and racism can work both ways....why would ESPN have someone on their set that harbors this kind of hate for people because they were good students and great basketball players.

Seventh,
The fab 5 hated duke for one real reason.....duke was better than them.....the fab 5 were 0-5 against duke....and had a meltdown against unc which is just 8 miles away....i am sure they hate unc too....I'M POSITIVE....LOL !!!!

[wilson]

THIRD,
A CRACKHOUSE......20 YEARS AGO.....some of you younger folks may not realize, but, being in a crackhouse 20 years ago was ALOTTTTTTTTTTT different than being in a crack house today....not that many back then, and people who visited them were in a very select group.... !!!!!Dear God...what are you talking about? Your points are growing ever more incendiary and unbecoming.
Your immensely poor composition further cheapens whatever your points might be. Moreover, it is not exactly a ringing endorsement of Duke's academic prowess.
Really, we've heard you, most of us find your comments distasteful, and you need not continue.

[CharlestonDevil]

Sorry we're not sorry.

[devildownunder]

Rose called Duke's black players Uncle Toms. And he never really backed off of it, saying "certain schools recruit a certain kind of black player". It's hard for me to imagine anything he could've said that would be more offensive to other black players.

But espn's not going to suspend him or discipline him at all. Heck, they're using his words to promote the show.

[BD80]

A friend/former colleague of mine went to law school at Michigan and was friends with a number of the Fab 5 era players, particularly Juwan Howard. Webber was in fact very smart, Juwan sounded like a very nice guy, and Makhtar (no surprise) was crazy.

The level of corruption was even greater than was eventually uncovered. Apartments paid for, groceries, new SUVs, personal indiscretions covered up, and on and on. A lot of this had to be evident to anyone looking, but does local media want to bring down the state university sports team? (Don't think Duke would enjoy this level of protection.) ...

I also recall Webber (who had great SATs) describing Cameron as basketball heaven after visiting Duke and comparing it very favorably to his Michigan visit. Gee, I wonder what changed his mind. Can you imagine if he were added to the 92 team??? I guess Rose would have called Webber an "Uncle Tom."

Webber was a bright kid who desperately wanted "cred." Once he started on the gravy train, he completely quit academics. I don't think he merited a passing grade in any course at UM. He viewed his Prep School past as an albatross. His college choice was literally choosing the "dark side." He went for the easy route, immediate fame and money, with less work, but less development as a person and a player.

Rose, Webber et al considered themselves to be part of the counterculture - the terms "thugs" or "gangsta" are relevant only to the extent that they would use the terms to describe themselves. They considered Duke to be the paradigm of the establishment. Thus, the term "Uncle Tom" is not entirely misplaced nor necessarily racist. It is strange that JHoward went along with the hype, because he was a REALLY good kid, and if I recall, so was Jimmy King. I always viewed Rose as the ringleader, and a bit of a punk. I think it is fair to say that he has grown up a lot over the years. Still, this is NOT a "tell all," it is a "tell enough" to titillate. Jalen was far more into the money and drugs than he is willing to admit.

[Atlanta Duke]

Apparently Jalen will go on the BS Report with Bill Simmons this afternoon.

Link here

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd=1#/podcenter/?callsign=ESPNRADIO&autoplay=1&id=6198290

Typical Simmons suck up to any podcast guest not named Hench, Cousin Sal or Jacko - no reference at all to the "Duke recruits Uncle Toms" claim even though that has been the quote that has drawn attention to Sunday's show - Simmons probably figured who knows what sort of nonsensical "clarification" might be made or had no interest in going on the record with his own views

Some excerpts

Ed Martin defended as good folks while Chris Webber called out by Simmons and Rose after they agree Webber will regret not appearing on the Fab Five show where Rose is the producer and Simmons is executive producer of the series

Rose says Fab Five knew it would not be embraced like players from "Duke, Indiana, or Notre Dame" - no code words there, eh?

Very brief reference by Rose to 1992 Duke being a great team at 37 minute mark of podcast and that Duke deserved to win - OTOH Rose is still chapped Michigan lost to what he regards as an inferior UNC team in 1993 - says if Michigan plays that UNC team 10 times they win 9 :)

Listening to the podcast is 1:01:40 of my life I will not get back - at least I got other reading down online while Rose droned on about his life in the NBA

[jammsb]

"Nobody intimidated Bobby Hurley"

Christian Laettner absolutely intimidated Hurley as did UNLV the first time they met.

[jammsb]

I need to preface this by saying that there are very few more enthusiastic or loyal Duke basketball fans than yours truly.
However, the majority of those who have posted on this topic have made reference to the lily white purity of the men's basketball program. Oh that this were so. Are we better than most? Almost certainly. Do we have this level of purity? Absolutely not. To think so is just a display of arrogance and foolishness. Every major college sports program in America has some degree of gray. In the case of Duke, its a light shade. In the years of the great UNLV teams, its close to black. To think otherwise is just to reject reality.

[oldnavy]

I need to preface this by saying that there are very few more enthusiastic or loyal Duke basketball fans than yours truly.
However, the majority of those who have posted on this topic have made reference to the lily white purity of the men's basketball program. Oh that this were so. Are we better than most? Almost certainly. Do we have this level of purity? Absolutely not. To think so is just a display of arrogance and foolishness. Every major college sports program in America has some degree of gray. In the case of Duke, its a light shade. In the years of the great UNLV teams, its close to black. To think otherwise is just to reject reality.

Care to back up your claim that Duke's basketball program is in the grey area with specific examples, or are you just making assumptions based on a world view that you hold?

[jammsb]

C'mon guy. You can't be serious. I'm not saying that the movement of parents to Durham and their getting better jobs here to subsequently remain only through their basketball playing son's duration here is a grand felony. Far from it. Chris Duhon's mom is not the only parent to fall into this category. Only that it raises a question. Thus my statement, that in my opinion we are not as lily white as many of those commenting would suggest. Do I think that there are any schools that are? MAYBE but likely not, SOME of the Ivys. Do you really think that every Duke scholarship basketball player had the necessary grades to be accepted or even to be considered by Duke? To their credit a majority of those that fell into this category, overcame their previous low grades and SATS and graduated from Duke. I'm not saying that we cheat. I don't believe that anybody in the athletic program would knowingly do so. However to say or believe that we have never bent the rules or translated them to our beliefs is just a case of the emperor's new clothes. If you choose to believe that we are and have always been perfect, then God bless you.

[jammsb]

I probably should add the military academies and yes, BYU, to that ultra small list of those schools who are close to being beyond reproach.

[jammsb]

Because I don't believe that Duke is perfect, ergo I am a troll.
Okay you win. Duke is perfect.
Every bit as much as Santa Claus is.

[kong123]

Because I don't believe that Duke is perfect, ergo I am a troll.
Okay you win. Duke is perfect.
Every bit as much as Santa Claus is.

Please, can't everyone just agree? If we all agree that everything is perfect, then everyone will get along. Please read the DBR by-laws so you will know what opinion you should have.

:cool:

[cruxer]

Please, can't everyone just agree? If we all agree that everything is perfect, then everyone will get along. Please read the DBR by-laws so you will know what opinion you should have.


I know you're doing a little friendly trolling (I say friendly because you've posted for a while here and your powder blue lenses only occasionally cast a shadow.), but in fairness nobody's claimed perfection. Folks have only asked for evidence that there have been violations. By evidence we mean something other than innuendo or assumptions that have never even risen to the level of investigation.

-c

[kong123]

I know you're doing a little friendly trolling (I say friendly because you've posted for a while here and your powder blue lenses only occasionally cast a shadow.), but in fairness nobody's claimed perfection. Folks have only asked for evidence that there have been violations. By evidence we mean something other than innuendo or assumptions that have never even risen to the level of investigation.

-c

I do not think he is stating that violations have been committed. I believe what he simply stating is that not everything Duke or any other school does is completely 100% clean. There are gray areas that are not illegal or in violation of NCAA rules where schools operate all the time. He mentioned the Duhon thing as an example of something that could be seen from a different point of view as something fishy. Also, you had a player take a small amount of money from an AAU coach years ago, right? That happened before he arrived on campus, but it still could have caused Duke a problem. He isn't accusing Duke of doing anything wrong. However, he isn't completely blind to the probability that something, somewhere in the program, may not be squeaky clean as you would want it to be. I believe both Duke and UNC do the best they can to be good clean programs, but occasionally things happen that no one can foresee as a problem. Also, there are ways to work around existing rules to operate in these gray areas. To deny that is seems arrogant and ignorant.

[Billy Dat]

Link here

http://espn.go.com/espnradio/player?rd=1#/podcenter/?callsign=ESPNRADIO&autoplay=1&id=6198290

Typical Simmons suck up to any podcast guest not named Hench, Cousin Sal or Jacko - no reference at all to the "Duke recruits Uncle Toms" claim even though that has been the quote that has drawn attention to Sunday's show - Simmons probably figured who knows what sort of nonsensical "clarification" might be made or had no interest in going on the record with his own views

Some excerpts

Ed Martin defended as good folks while Chris Webber called out by Simmons and Rose after they agree Webber will regret not appearing on the Fab Five show where Rose is the producer and Simmons is executive producer of the series

Rose says Fab Five knew it would not be embraced like players from "Duke, Indiana, or Notre Dame" - no code words there, eh?

Very brief reference by Rose to 1992 Duke being a great team at 37 minute mark of podcast and that Duke deserved to win - OTOH Rose is still chapped Michigan lost to what he regards as an inferior UNC team in 1993 - says if Michigan plays that UNC team 10 times they win 9 :)

Listening to the podcast is 1:01:40 of my life I will not get back - at least I got other reading down online while Rose droned on about his life in the NBA

I found the podcast to be extremely interesting and entertaining and think it's well worth the time to hear Jalen tell his story, and the story of the Fab 5. I think it takes guts to say, which he did in the doc according to some of the coverage, that his hatred of Duke, aside from the losses on the court, had a lot to do with his jealousy over the perceived priviledged life of Grant Hill and others on the team. As he said, in his words, he grew up eating mayo sandwiches and sleeping in a coat in the winter, while he had a father who was a top pick in the NBA draft and did nothing to support his family. Listening to the interview, you certainly get that he feels differently now, that he has the perspective of an adult millionaire who has a much expanded worldview than a poor inner city 18 year old. I think we all know that there are kids in wealthy families living miserable lives - but I think that kind of truth would predictably fall of deaf ears of a poor teenager going through that life. Rose made mistakes, and he owns up to them. I believe in character and accountability, but I also believe in cutting kids some slack.

[TNDukeFan]

Talking about Jalen Rose and Duke

[cruxer]

I do not think he is stating that violations have been committed. I believe what he simply stating is that not everything Duke or any other school does is completely 100% clean. There are gray areas that are not illegal or in violation of NCAA rules where schools operate all the time. He mentioned the Duhon thing as an example of something that could be seen from a different point of view as something fishy. Also, you had a player take a small amount of money from an AAU coach years ago, right? That happened before he arrived on campus, but it still could have caused Duke a problem. He isn't accusing Duke of doing anything wrong. However, he isn't completely blind to the probability that something, somewhere in the program, may not be squeaky clean as you would want it to be. I believe both Duke and UNC do the best they can to be good clean programs, but occasionally things happen that no one can foresee as a problem. Also, there are ways to work around existing rules to operate in these gray areas. To deny that is seems arrogant and ignorant.

Maybe my definition of perfect is different. I want my coach and program doing everything within the rules to bring players in who can develop as players and students and contribute to the university's success. If it's not a rules violation, it's not gray. Rules are meant to tell you what you can do as much as what you can't do.

In my recollection, Maggette is the only player that even came close to causing us a problem, and I would assume the coaching staff had no idea what transpired before he came to Duke. That speaks to your point about how much one can really know about players who come into your program.

For what it's worth, I do think that every successful program absolutely takes maximum advantage of the rulebook. IMHO they'd be silly not to. I guess what I'm saying is, based on your explanation, I agree with you guys vis-a-vis Duke and gray areas, I just don't consider it gray.

-c

[kong123]

if you take every instance of gray involving duke basketball and compare it to the actions of the unlv team in just 1991, it's like comparing detention hall to death row..... THIS IS REALITY !!!....

no one is making that comparison. I think the reason the guy laughed at your comment concerning your black son is because that is the kind of generic excuse a person makes when he is trying to defend himself from being called racist. "I got plenty of black friends" is the kind of statement it sounded like. I think you have made your point, you do not consider yourself racist. Others are of the opinion that using the word "thug" in this instance leaves them feeling like you are being a bit racist.

[sagegrouse]

Talking about Jalen Rose and Duke

Thanks for the warning. :) I'll be sure to stay away!:rolleyes: :eek:

sagegrouse

[TNDukeFan]

Cowherd spent the entire segment on the idea that not every school is right for everybody (Bill Walton wouldn't have fit at BYU, etc., etc.). He ignored the implications of Rose's use of the phrase 'Uncle Tom.'

[Bob Green]

This conversation has run its course. Let's move on to a different topic such as the ACCT perhaps.

[dukebluesincebirth]

What an idiot Jalen Rose is. Did he really refer to black Duke players as "Uncle Toms?" This infuriates me. People come on T.V. and just spout whatever...disgusting. I've never enjoyed listening to this guy on espn, as he traditionally provides some of the most shallow commentary and analysis of basketball that I've ever heard. Does he have basis for these comments? Proof? Examples? What even is his definition of "Uncle Tom" and how exactly is he applying this to basketball? I hope there's an apology coming.

[kong123]

What an idiot Jalen Rose is. Did he really refer to black Duke players as "Uncle Toms?" This infuriates me. People come on T.V. and just spout whatever...disgusting. I've never enjoyed listening to this guy on espn, as he traditionally provides some of the most shallow commentary and analysis of basketball that I've ever heard. Does he have basis for these comments? Proof? Examples? What even is his definition of "Uncle Tom" and how exactly is he applying this to basketball? I hope there's an apology coming.

there has already been a thread discussing this that has now been locked.

[Devilsfan]

I wonder how Jalen would refer to an overachiever who went to elite schools and then became President.

[Class of '94]

What an idiot Jalen Rose is. Did he really refer to black Duke players as "Uncle Toms?" This infuriates me. People come on T.V. and just spout whatever...disgusting. I've never enjoyed listening to this guy on espn, as he traditionally provides some of the most shallow commentary and analysis of basketball that I've ever heard. Does he have basis for these comments? Proof? Examples? What even is his definition of "Uncle Tom" and how exactly is he applying this to basketball? I hope there's an apology coming.

I heard Jalen on a local radio station here in the Detroit metro area a few days ago; and while I didn't necessarily agree with everything he said, one of his main points was that his views about Duke and black Duke basketball players being "Uncle Toms" were his thoughts as an 18-19 year old; and that he said and did a lot of stupid things at that age. He hoped people would understand that and give him the benefit of the doubt that he needed seasoning and time to mature; and that he learned from his youthful mistakes. He just chalked it up to being young and not having the kind of infrastructure of a person like a Grant Hill. I honestly don't think he still believes black Duke players are "Uncle Toms".

[dukebluesincebirth]

Thanks for the clarification. That makes me feel better about it. God knows I did/said many immature things as an 18-19 year old. I thought he was standing by the comments today. If he's just making a point about how immature he used to be, that's different.