Nolan Smith for NPOY thread

[wgl1228]

I think this deserves its own thread but if not I'm sorry. I just wanted to start some discussion of Nolan, Sullinger, and Fredette and who should honestly be the NPOY. All bias aside I would choose Nolan for picking up the slack after Irving's injury. Sullinger is great and on a great team and you cannot ignore that BYU's schedule stinks. I regard Fredette as a great player though. It's just a tough choice this year.

[JasonEvans]

you cannot ignore that BYU's schedule stinks.

Yeah, Pomeroy rates BYU's SOS as 45th in the nation while Duke's is 42nd. BYU's schedule stinks!

BYU's wins over Arizona, Utah State, and San Diego State are more impressive than any win Duke has except UNC. BYU and San Diego State have played harder schedules than you might imagine... though they have also played a lot of teams that simply had next to no chance of beating them.

But, back on topic... NPOY is a tough one to project this year. It has gone through several waves.

Kemba Walker was looking like a runaway winner in November and even December. Then Jimmer put on a real show in January -- 39 at UNLV, 47 against Utah, 42 more versus Colorado St, and then 43 against San Diego St. As the same time, UConn appeared to be fading and Walker sorta moved out of the conversation.

The latest fad has been Sullinger. As Ohio State ascended to #1 in the polls and remained undefeated for so long, it seemed the momentum was headed in his direction. However, lately, it seems there has been more and more talk about Nolan.

If Duke climbs back to #1 and Nolan has some big national TV games, I could see him getting the nod. It would not hurt if he managed to hold off Marshall for the ACC assist title to become the first player in history to lead the ACC in both scoring and assists.

I won't be all that surprised to see the NPOY awards spread out among the 3 leading contenders. The major awards are the Wooden, the Naismith, and the AP POY. The Sporting News, UPI, the NABC, and a few other organizations also give out awards that are worth noting. It would be kinda nice if the three front-runners split several of these.

If I had to rate the odds of any of these guys winning each of the major awards, I would put it like this right now--


Sullinger - 40%
Fredette - 30%
Smith - 25%
Walker - 5%

--Jason "the final 2 weeks... and it is still up for grabs" Evans

[Wander]

I think it's about time for this.

Jimmer Fredette, BYU: The best scorer in the college game. Really impressive efficiency considering how much attention he gets from opposing defenses. Strength of schedule argument is nonsense - I'm not sure Duke's overall schedule is even better than BYU's, and the computer numbers say BYU has faced better defenses on average than either Duke or Ohio State.

Nolan Smith, Duke: Probably the most all-around complete player in the country. He's between good and amazing at everything you could want from a guard, despite having a role on the team he wasn't supposed to have. I've noticed that his scoring has almost made Duke fans completely forget about what a good defender he is (the area that he has the biggest edge over Jimmer).

Jared Sullinger, Ohio State: The best player on what would be the overall 1 seed if the tournament started today. Great scorer and rebounder, and very efficient. Not a great shot blocker, but maybe that's intentional to stay out of foul trouble, which is another thing he does well.

I guess some people are still talking about Kemba Walker, and I personally think Derrick Williams of Arizona is just as good as any of these guys, but realistically, these are the three who have a chance.

[Newton_14]

I think it's about time for this.

Nolan Smith, Duke: Probably the most all-around complete player in the country. He's between good and amazing at everything you could want from a guard, despite having a role on the team he wasn't supposed to have. I've noticed that his scoring has almost made Duke fans completely forget about what a good defender he is (the area that he has the biggest edge over Jimmer).

.

Not me. Nolan is hands down the best on ball defender in the country imo. Nolan grew just as much as a defender last year as he did on the offensive side of the ball. Due to the short bench last year, he had to learn to play great defense without fouling. He has really refined that this year as well. Watching him guard the much taller Shumpert last night was a thing of beauty. I love watching Nolan defend.

IMO Nolan is hands down the best player in the country. I stated that to a friend while at the first NC State game, and I have not changed my mind. The other two contenders are great players in their own right, but they are not the total package on both sides of the ball that Nolan is.

[PADukeMom]

Do you guys really need me to add my 2 cents!!! L:cool:L!

Duke Blue :cool: firmly on my face.....NOLAN SMITH is NPOY. Walker isn't having a POY type season neither is Kyle. Sullinger is a freshman & I think you need to be more than a 1st year player to be considered. hey just my humble opinion.

I think it is coming down to Jimmer & Nolan. Yet again Duke Blue Glasses firmly in place how do you compare the ACC in a down year to the Mountain West in a good year???

Come on NCAA comittee...I really want a Nolan Smith jersey but I probably can't get one unless you give him at least 1 award because if he doesn't get 1 NPOY his jersey won't be retired & Quinn Cook (love him) will probably wear the #2 & that will be a stake in my heart. I am dealing with #21 being worn by Miles but it has been long enough since Trajan wore it so it's all good.

[BlueintheFace]

http://ndotsmittypoy.com
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Apparently there will be more testimonials from NBA players, college players, and others in the coming days/weeks...


The grassroots campaign is underway. Get out there and do work Duke fans.

[mr shadow 008]

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/lists/player-of-the-year-race-gallery-022311#photo-title=Nolan%20Smith,%206-2,%20185,%20G,%20Sr.,%20Duke&photo=28369024

Apparently Jeff Goodman has Nolan ranked #1 in his NPOY rankings. Now I don't put a whole lot of stock in that but I thought it was interesting. He has Nolan #1, Sullinger #2, and the Jimmer #3.

[uh_no]

Sullinger is a freshman & I think you need to be more than a 1st year player to be considered.

Kevin Durant would beg to differ.

[DevilWolf]

Although Kevin Durant may beg to differ with Sullinger as the NPOY. Perhaps he'll tell you first hand. Perhaps on ndotsmittypoy.com. Perhaps.

[ajgoodfella7]

Realistically, I believe that Nolan is still playing catchup with Fredette. The good news is that he still has time.

[JasonEvans]

Not sure how many of you are following the KenPom POY race. Ken, as you might imagine, uses statistical formulas for his POY computation. He factors in offense and defense as well as your team's overall performance.

Nolan has been steadily climbing in the ratings (http://kenpom.com/blog/index.php/weblog/the_kpoy_if_you_have_a_problem_turn_off_your_stati on/) in recent weeks. He has now passed Sullinger to move into 2nd place, just behind Jimmer. The current standings are--


1. Jimmer Fredette, Brigham Young (Rating of .554, last week: 1st)
2. Nolan Smith, Duke (.529, LW: 3rd)
3. Jared Sullinger, Ohio St. (.512, LW: 2nd)
4. JaJuan Johnson, Purdue (.480, LW: 6th)
5. Jon Leuer, Wisconsin (.474, LW: 4th)

Worth noting that Kemba Walker is not even in the top 10.

--Jason "interesting that Ken's mathematical formula pretty much seems in step with what humans are thinking for POY... at least among the top 3" Evans

[uh_no]

Worth noting that Kemba Walker is not even in the top 10.


i'd hope no one is considering him.....

[Billy Dat]

From Luke Winn's weekly Power Rankings (always a must read)
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/luke_winn/02/24/power.rankings/index.html

"Barring some kind of catastrophic injury to BYU's Jimmer Fredette, it's doubtful that Duke's Nolan Smith will win the Naismith or Wooden awards. Fredette took a sizable lead (by 35 out of 50 first-place votes) in the latest AnnArbor.com straw poll, with Ohio State's Jared Sullinger second and Smith third. The BYU scoring machine also holds a solid lead in the computer-generated kPOY, although Smith moved into second place this week. I imagine my final Naismith vote will be for Fredette, and there will be little controversy about him being honored.

And yet, if voters were asked the question, "Which guard would you most want running your team in the NCAA tournament?" ... I think they'd overwhelmingly pick Smith. I'd pick Smith. Fredette has been phenomenal, but he hasn't played beyond the first weekend of the dance, whereas Smith was the South Region's Most Outstanding Player last season, and has only gotten better since. I suspect that Ohio State and Texas will be the two most popular national-champ picks in office pool brackets, but don't overlook Duke: No other title contender has a guard with the combination of postseason confidence and experience that Smith provides. The two others whom I'd trust the most to run my team -- Wisconsin's Jordan Taylor and Pitt's Brad Wanamaker -- have yet to play a major role in even a second-weekend NCAA tournament game."

[superdave]

Espn Gameday two Saturday nights in a row - in Blacksburg for Duke-VPI this week and next Saturday in CH for Duke-Unc.

If Nolan has two 30 point games in him, these two games are the time to do it. Big stage, last big chance to take out Fredette (who could not guard me in a pickup game).

[Dev11]

Espn Gameday two Saturday nights in a row - in Blacksburg for Duke-VPI this week and next Saturday in CH for Duke-Unc.

If Nolan has two 30 point games in him, these two games are the time to do it. Big stage, last big chance to take out Fredette (who could not guard me in a pickup game).

We're on CBS next week in Chapel Hill, and GameDay is in Waco...

[Rudy]

The top three are all in the running. How they and their teams fare in the tournament will have a big impact and it seems likely to me that BYU will lose before Duke does. Nolan's defensive work and value may become evident to more voters as the tournament proceeds.

[timmy c]

get your Nolan POY avatarsand more:
http://ndotsmittypoy.com/2011/02/avatars-twitcons-and-graphics-oh-my/

[moonpie23]

done !!!!!

[dukebluesincebirth]

Since I just joined this site, I might as well make my first post a STRONG vote for our man NOLAN SMITH for NPOY. Lets not forget about 1)his defense, usually guarding the other team's best guard and 2)the position he's been in to become the first player in ACC history to lead the league in points AND assists! Just take a moment to scroll through the list of great guards that have played in the ACC over the years... this is an amazing accomplishment! I won't even mention the guy who plays out in the middle of nowhere mountains out west for byu... this is NOLAN SMITH's award!

[superdave]

We're on CBS next week in Chapel Hill, and GameDay is in Waco...

Whoops. I dont know if 30 points on Cbs is as good as 30 on Espn because they have Erin Andrews. We'll have to see how this plays out.

Anyone know when ballots are due for Wooden and Naismith?

[gw67]

Whoops. I dont know if 30 points on Cbs is as good as 30 on Espn because they have Erin Andrews. We'll have to see how this plays out.

Anyone know when ballots are due for Wooden and Naismith?

On the surface, Smith has a big advantage playing on the East coast and being on the team that is on TV more than any other. I live in Northern Virginia and I've seen Duke play over 20 times, whereas, I've seen one BYU game. Who knows how big an advantage this is. I suppose that there are some who want to see a new face (read team) win the award.

Links for the Wooden and Naismith awards are below:

http://www.woodenaward.com/?page_id=2
http://www.naismithawards.com/PressBox/FactSheet.aspx

I suspect that the awards are spread around this year. The awards go the player who is having the best year (NOT necessarily the best player) and Smith and Freddette are having comparably great senior years, IMO.

gw67

[PADukeMom]

They allow fan voting? Seriously??? I never knew that. Not sure is this is going to be a good thing for Nolan since we are great at poll skewing but will the "anyone but a Dukie" win out in the end?

[jimrowe0]

RollinWithNolan....follow @ndotsmittypoy

[Olympic Fan]

Allow me to make the case for Nolan. Admittedly, I'm a Duke fan, so you know where I'm coming from.

Sullinger is having a great season for a great team -- although Illinois coach Bruce Weber argues that Ohio State senior David Lighty, not Sullinger, should be the Big Ten's MVP.

One thing I noticed is that Sullinger's stats look remarkably similar to those posted by Maryland's Jordan Williams:

Sullinger: 31.7 minutes, 17.8 ppg., 9.9 rpg., 0.5 blocks, 56.5 FG%, 71.71 FT%
Williams: 31.9 minutes, 17.2 ppg., 11.5 rpg., 1.1 blocks, 55.7 FG%, 57.9 FT%

Sullinger is only clearly better from the FT line -- Williams is a better rebounder and shot blocker. I know stats are everything, but it's an interesting comparison.

As for Jimmer Fredette, he is without question the best offensive player in the country. He's averaging six points a game more than Nolan with just 1.1 less assist per game. He's also shooting a slightly better percentage from the floor, the 3-point line and the FT line.

The problem is his defense -- or lack of it. I was watching ESPN's College Basketball Final break down the BYU-SDSU game coming up Saturday and they used film footage to point out what a defensive liability Jimmer is. Not only does BYU usually play zone to hide his defensive inefficiency, he doesn't even play the zone well -- ESPN's take is that his favorite defensive move is standing there watching (they they used film clims to illustrate his lack of effort even when an offensive player was within feet of him).

We all understand that Nolan is a superb defender -- Duke's best on-the-ball. Is that (plus one extra assist a game) enough to make up for Jimmer's six pioint advantage in the scoring column?

I'd argue that it is, but then, I'm biased.

Last time I checked, the NCAA recognized six major national player of the year awards. I suspect those will be split. Fredette probably wins the most, but I'm guessing that Nolan wins one or two (the NABC is my bet ... it's usually the best informed).

[Wander]

Sullinger is having a great season for a great team -- although Illinois coach Bruce Weber argues that Ohio State senior David Lighty, not Sullinger, should be the Big Ten's MVP.


Every year, there are teams that are overhyped in the preseason because the media vastly overrates the value of having seniors over talent and coaching (Duke is an interesting exception to my seniors are overrated idea, but that's a story for another day). This season, Illinois and Virginia Tech were perfect examples of this phenomenon. So it's kind of funny that Weber would take this ridiculous stance - and maybe helps explain why his team is 0-2 against Ohio State.

[Newton_14]

RollinWithNolan....follow @ndotsmittypoy

I am in! Nolan Smith for National Player of The Year!!

This next 8 days are key. Nolan needs to have 3 strong performances in what hopefully will be 3 Duke wins. Would love to see him hang 30 on the Heels in that last regular season game.

[gw67]

Allow me to make the case for Nolan. Admittedly, I'm a Duke fan, so you know where I'm coming from.

Sullinger is having a great season for a great team -- although Illinois coach Bruce Weber argues that Ohio State senior David Lighty, not Sullinger, should be the Big Ten's MVP.

One thing I noticed is that Sullinger's stats look remarkably similar to those posted by Maryland's Jordan Williams:

Sullinger: 31.7 minutes, 17.8 ppg., 9.9 rpg., 0.5 blocks, 56.5 FG%, 71.71 FT%
Williams: 31.9 minutes, 17.2 ppg., 11.5 rpg., 1.1 blocks, 55.7 FG%, 57.9 FT%

Sullinger is only clearly better from the FT line -- Williams is a better rebounder and shot blocker. I know stats are everything, but it's an interesting comparison.

As for Jimmer Fredette, he is without question the best offensive player in the country. He's averaging six points a game more than Nolan with just 1.1 less assist per game. He's also shooting a slightly better percentage from the floor, the 3-point line and the FT line.

The problem is his defense -- or lack of it. I was watching ESPN's College Basketball Final break down the BYU-SDSU game coming up Saturday and they used film footage to point out what a defensive liability Jimmer is. Not only does BYU usually play zone to hide his defensive inefficiency, he doesn't even play the zone well -- ESPN's take is that his favorite defensive move is standing there watching (they they used film clims to illustrate his lack of effort even when an offensive player was within feet of him).

We all understand that Nolan is a superb defender -- Duke's best on-the-ball. Is that (plus one extra assist a game) enough to make up for Jimmer's six pioint advantage in the scoring column?

I'd argue that it is, but then, I'm biased.

Last time I checked, the NCAA recognized six major national player of the year awards. I suspect those will be split. Fredette probably wins the most, but I'm guessing that Nolan wins one or two (the NABC is my bet ... it's usually the best informed).

Olympic,

For many years I’ve enjoyed your well-crafted posts and you have made a good case for Smith as NPOY. I too am biased, primarily because I’m a Duke fan and I’ve seen Smith play for four years and I’ve barely seen Sullinger and Fredette play. Also, I like seeing local (DC area) youngsters do well. I would, however, take minor exception to your post above. IMO, defensive play as a component for choosing the NPOY has generally not played a big role in choosing NPOYs in the past (e.g. Redick, Laettner, Ferry, Melo and many others were not known for being defensive stalwarts). I don’t doubt that Smith is a better defensive player and that certainly can be used as a criterion by some . In fairness, Fredette has played a tougher schedule according to RPI and Sagarin and he is clearly the one player on BYU that is the focus of opposing defenses; whereas, I don’t believe that most teams focus their defenses on Smith because of the quality and depth of players who play alongside him.

If Smith has good games this week and Fredette struggles against SDS, I expect Smith to win the majority of the awards. In any case, both youngsters are terrific college players who are having outstanding senior seasons and are deserving of all the awards they garner.

gw67

[_TheFakeJWill_]

I think that TONIGHT will be an excellent opportunity for Nolan to take the NPOY from Jimmer. Jimmer plays SDSU and if he doesnt play well and Nolan on the "big stage" (college game day) can put up solid numbers i have a feeling it can open more peoples eyes to him being NPOY. GO DUKE!

[Kedsy]

In fairness, Fredette has played a tougher schedule according to RPI and Sagarin and he is clearly the one player on BYU that is the focus of opposing defenses; whereas, I don’t believe that most teams focus their defenses on Smith because of the quality and depth of players who play alongside him.

I'm not sure I agree with this. Fredette may be more of a focus of his opponents' defenses, but since the first Maryland game a lot of teams (I would say most) have written their game plans around stopping Nolan. Right up to and including Temple.

[Billy Dat]

Sadly, these awards get decided in December and January, pretty much. I think Jimmer has too much of a head start. He is practically going to win on his unique name alone;^)

I am watiching this BYU/SDSU because I haven't seen Jimmer this year. He does draw a ridiculous amount of attention and is pretty good at finding the resulting open man. He is exciting to watch, but he is also a chucker.

[SMO]

Sadly, these awards get decided in December and January, pretty much. I think Jimmer has too much of a head start. He is practically going to win on his unique name alone;^)

I am watiching this BYU/SDSU because I haven't seen Jimmer this year. He does draw a ridiculous amount of attention and is pretty good at finding the resulting open man. He is exciting to watch, but he is also a chucker.

Well, maybe the officials in today's SDSU v. BYU game want Nolan
to win because they are jobbing Jimmer big time.

[Starter]

Based on how much he's done for this team this year and during his four-year career, I'd love to see Nolan win NPOY -- and I love the campaigns out there -- but honestly, Fredette's awesome. Watching him today in a tough road environment, I can't say enough about him as a college player. He reminds me so much of Redick as a senior -- and that includes defense, because J.J. was far from a standout in that area. Their shooting numbers were virtually identical; Redick was a tick above him in FG, FT and 3P percentages, while Fredette rebounds better and averages double the assists Redick did. I'd have to think he's going to win. He's the standout college player this season.

And not for nothing, BYU is no joke. They're hitting everything today, but they look really solid besides that. BYU and San Diego State are very different teams, but I see both as credible Final Four threats.

[Billy Dat]

Based on how much he's done for this team this year and during his four-year career, I'd love to see Nolan win NPOY -- and I love the campaigns out there -- but honestly, Fredette's awesome. Watching him today in a tough road environment, I can't say enough about him as a college player. He reminds me so much of Redick as a senior -- and that includes defense, because J.J. was far from a standout in that area. Their shooting numbers were virtually identical; Redick was a tick above him in FG, FT and 3P percentages, while Fredette rebounds better and averages double the assists Redick did. I'd have to think he's going to win. He's the standout college player this season.

And not for nothing, BYU is no joke. They're hitting everything today, but they look really solid besides that. BYU and San Diego State are very different teams, but I see both as credible Final Four threats.

Agree with all of this this...both of these teams look very tough. While I doubt BYU can shoot like this everytime out, they really have a complete game. SDSU is ferocious on the boards, but, man, they missed a ton of bunnies today.

[jv001]

Based on how much he's done for this team this year and during his four-year career, I'd love to see Nolan win NPOY -- and I love the campaigns out there -- but honestly, Fredette's awesome. Watching him today in a tough road environment, I can't say enough about him as a college player. He reminds me so much of Redick as a senior -- and that includes defense, because J.J. was far from a standout in that area. Their shooting numbers were virtually identical; Redick was a tick above him in FG, FT and 3P percentages, while Fredette rebounds better and averages double the assists Redick did. I'd have to think he's going to win. He's the standout college player this season.

And not for nothing, BYU is no joke. They're hitting everything today, but they look really solid besides that. BYU and San Diego State are very different teams, but I see both as credible Final Four threats.

Jimmer and BYU are better than I thought. Jimmer does remind me of JJ in his awesome shooting and BYU is a real good team. What they did against SDSU on the road today showed they are at least Elite 8. I love Nolan and what he's done for Duke this year. I hate to pick Jimmer over Smitty because Nolan plays very good defense and dishes the ball just as well as Jimmer. These two guys will probably split some player of the year awards. Which is probably how it should go. Go Duke!

[Starter]

I hate to pick Jimmer over Smitty because Nolan plays very good defense and dishes the ball just as well as Jimmer. These two guys will probably split some player of the year awards. Which is probably how it should go.

I think you may be right. I hope you are, because Nolan's such a good kid, always has been. And his ebullience, embracing of social media and appeal to the public has done so much for Duke's perception nationwide. Not to mention, he's simply a wonderful player. Nobody could have dreamed two years ago that he'd be as good as he is at this point. In a non-Jimmer year, I think he'd take it over Sullinger. But we'll see how it goes. Nolan has some time left to make a big impression. (But Fredette did just that today.)

[Utley]

Feels like Jimmer locked it up today.

[Chris Randolph]

Feels like Jimmer locked it up today.

I hate to say it, but you are probably right. Jimmer plays ZERO defense and takes a ton of shots each game. Nolan can lock people down (as he did Delaney tonight). But America loves offense and the name Jimmer. If his name is Eric Fredette, he probably doesn't win it hahahaha jk

[sagegrouse]

Feels like Jimmer locked it up today.

Not if folks look at the numbers. Jimmer scored 25 points on 23 shots, and folks in the other thread are excoriating Kyle for scoring 22 on 20 shots. Good grief! I remember when JJ (2x NPOY) scored 40 against UVa on only 13 shots.

sagegrouse

[Cameron]

Not a good day for nodotsmitty.com.

Nolan's free-throw bouncing off the rim in the waning seconds in a three-point game sounded awfully similar to the JIM of Jimmer being carved into the Naismith. A big missed opportunity to get that game within one, which totally changed the complexion of the game. I am confident that Kyle could have got to the rim and given us the lead in the last 25 seconds with us in that position. Obviously, the loss doesn't fall on Nolan. But you have to be able to convert from the line down the stretch. You just have to. (F you, Tom Coverdale, and your stupid hop-stop leprechaun lay-up.)

With the way we shot the deep ball tonight, that three-point deficit might as well have been 18 million.

I think Jimmer, even with a less-than-stellar offensive output today in his one and only national television appearance, did show why he is in the running and probably the favorite. Jimmer may have taken a lot of shots, but he also played a beautiful game against SDSU by turning the concentration placed upon him into his teammates' advantage through great court awareness and ball distribution. He was a field general out there today.

I still think Nolan is the NPOTY. He's had a ------- outstanding season. Please absolve me of my language; that just sounds right. But, in the national public's eye, I bet the Jimmer is the favorite at this point.

[gw67]

Smith is a terrific player who is having an outstanding senior year. Winning or not winning the NPOY does not take from that. I doubt that there were any on this board who foresaw his growth as a player when he was a freshman. He has ACC POY sewn up and he has several opportunities to shine in the next five weeks.

Prior to yesterday, I had seen BYU play twice in the last two years. As someone who is a Duke fan and wants to see Smith win one of the six(?) NPOY awards, I came away from yesterday's game between SDSU and BYU very impressed with Fredette. It is very clear that he is the engine that makes BYU go and SDSU played special defenses against him, cheating off other players to double team him and then bringing a third player when he drove. In the first half the defensive help was applied close to the 3-point line and he hit 2-3 very long jumpers before help arrived. In the second half they changed up be putting a 6-8 player on him and bringing help much earlier outside the 3-point line. This was very effective in limiting his points but he was able to get the ball to his teammates for shots.

My conclusion is that he is an outstanding offensive player who is also deserving of NPOY awards. Yesterday, he had an off shooting day against a good defensive team that devoted a lot of their energy to stopping him. Like Smith, he is one of those rare players who is not only a terrific "shooter" but is a "scorer" and an excellent passer. His senior year is comparable to Redick's senior year although he has the ball in his hands much more, is a better passer and may be the subject of more strange defenses.

gw67

[Wander]

Yeah, this is more or less over. I wouldn't get my hopes up about a split of the awards either - Redick swept the 3 major awards in 2006 and Hansbrough swept them in 2008, despite those years being two of the closest NPOY races in recent history (with Adam Morrison and Michael Beasley).

Still a great season and a lock for First Team All-America, though.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Smith is a terrific player who is having an outstanding senior year. Winning or not winning the NPOY does not take from that. I doubt that there were any on this board who foresaw his growth as a player when he was a freshman. He has ACC POY sewn up and he has several opportunities to shine in the next five weeks.

Prior to yesterday, I had seen BYU play twice in the last two years. As someone who is a Duke fan and wants to see Smith win one of the six(?) NPOY awards, I came away from yesterday's game between SDSU and BYU very impressed with Fredette. It is very clear that he is the engine that makes BYU go and SDSU played special defenses against him, cheating off other players to double team him and then bringing a third player when he drove. In the first half the defensive help was applied close to the 3-point line and he hit 2-3 very long jumpers before help arrived. In the second half they changed up be putting a 6-8 player on him and bringing help much earlier outside the 3-point line. This was very effective in limiting his points but he was able to get the ball to his teammates for shots.

My conclusion is that he is an outstanding offensive player who is also deserving of NPOY awards. Yesterday, he had an off shooting day against a good defensive team that devoted a lot of their energy to stopping him. Like Smith, he is one of those rare players who is not only a terrific "shooter" but is a "scorer" and an excellent passer. His senior year is comparable to Redick's senior year although he has the ball in his hands much more, is a better passer and may be the subject of more strange defenses.

gw67

One play summed it up for me ...

VaTech exerting tremendous energy to stopping ndotsmitty. He gets the ball sometime in the early 2nd half (IIRC) and off the dribble buries a step back 18 footer with the defender playing great defense on the play. I immediately thought two things:

How many Duke players in my lifetime could have made that play? (Answer: precious few)

Is Nolan Smith an NBA caliber player? Yes.

I also am now firmly in the camp that he deserves to have his jersey retired. It is not like I did not know he was a great player before. It was just a light bulb going off in my head about the chasm that exists between his ability and most all who have come before him. My $.02

I still am surprised he was not able to will a victory out last night.

[RoyalBlue08]

One of the big advantages Nolan has in the NPOY race is the game's biggest stage on Saturday night. If he comes through with a monster game in Chapel Hill with everyone watching (certainly a possibility with Carolina's suspect perimeter defenders) it could go a long way with the various voters. Go get 'em Nolan!

[nmduke2001]

Since I live in an area of the country that has access to “the mountain network”, I have seen Jimmer play 7 or so times this year. There is no doubt that he is a gifted offensive player. He may be the best pure scorer in the NCAA since Kevin Durant. However, Jimmer may be the worst defensive player in the nation as well. He doesn’t even really try on the defensive end. While in college, JJ was limited on the defensive end, but at least he gave it his full effort. Jimmer saves all his effort for the offensive side of the ball.

If basketball was made up of offensive and defensive players, Jimmer would be the deserving NPOY. However, players must play both ends of the court. This is why I think Nolan is more deserving. I wonder how many points Nolan would score if he just stood around on defensive and preserved energy? Nolan is an above average defender.

I believe that east coast bias is actually hurting Nolan. Very few people have seen Jimmer play an entire game. They see the 30-foot three-pointers on Sportscenter and the gaudy numbers in the box score, but they don’t see the actual game. They don’t see Jimmer stop as soon as the player in which he is assigned to guard blows right past him. They don’t see him “leak out” for a fast break attempt the second his player shoots. Opposing players often have wide open shots because Jimmer won’t run through a screen. It’s embarrassing.

For my money, I take Nolan every single time.

[superdave]

Since I live in an area of the country that has access to “the mountain network”, I have seen Jimmer play 7 or so times this year. There is no doubt that he is a gifted offensive player. He may be the best pure scorer in the NCAA since Kevin Durant. However, Jimmer may be the worst defensive player in the nation as well. He doesn’t even really try on the defensive end. While in college, JJ was limited on the defensive end, but at least he gave it his full effort. Jimmer saves all his effort for the offensive side of the ball.

If basketball was made up of offensive and defensive players, Jimmer would be the deserving NPOY. However, players must play both ends of the court. This is why I think Nolan is more deserving. I wonder how many points Nolan would score if he just stood around on defensive and preserved energy? Nolan is an above average defender.

I believe that east coast bias is actually hurting Nolan. Very few people have seen Jimmer play an entire game. They see the 30-foot three-pointers on Sportscenter and the gaudy numbers in the box score, but they don’t see the actual game. They don’t see Jimmer stop as soon as the player in which he is assigned to guard blows right past him. They don’t see him “leak out” for a fast break attempt the second his player shoots. Opposing players often have wide open shots because Jimmer won’t run through a screen. It’s embarrassing.

For my money, I take Nolan every single time.

I highly suspect you are right. But I'm not sure it matters. I think Nolan's best revenge is winning another National Championship while BYU loses in the 2nd round to a 7-seed.

I really thought Nolan had to have big prime time games against VT last week and Unc this week. Too bad we lost last Saturday because I really think it sort of ended the conversation.

[Class of '94]

I highly suspect you are right. But I'm not sure it matters. I think Nolan's best revenge is winning another National Championship while BYU loses in the 2nd round to a 7-seed.

I really thought Nolan had to have big prime time games against VT last week and Unc this week. Too bad we lost last Saturday because I really think it sort of ended the conversation.

I wonder with BYU losing a key player and losing to Wyoming last night, could Nolan's chances of winning the NPOY go up now, especially when it looks like BYU's chances of going deep into the NCAAT are slim?

[superdave]

I wonder with BYU losing a key player and losing to Wyoming last night, could Nolan's chances of winning the NPOY go up now, especially when it looks like BYU's chances of going deep into the NCAAT are slim?

It might be too late...maybe if Fredette shoots sub 40% in his next 2-3 games and they get trounced.

Kemba Walker has played himself into a 2nd team AA spot because he wore out and CT started losing a bit. So yeah, it's possible, but perhaps if it started 2/1 instead of 3/1.

[nmduke2001]

It might be too late...maybe if Fredette shoots sub 40% in his next 2-3 games and they get trounced.

Kemba Walker has played himself into a 2nd team AA spot because he wore out and CT started losing a bit. So yeah, it's possible, but perhaps if it started 2/1 instead of 3/1.
It really is all hype. ESPN has made Jimmer into a folk hero. Hopefully, Nolan has a big game on Saturday to improve his chances.

btw, "Class of '94" it was New Mexico, not Wyoming. Sports radio out here has UNM back in the tourney after their win last night.

[-bdbd]

I highly suspect you are right. But I'm not sure it matters. I think Nolan's best revenge is winning another National Championship while BYU loses in the 2nd round to a 7-seed.

I really thought Nolan had to have big prime time games against VT last week and Unc this week. Too bad we lost last Saturday because I really think it sort of ended the conversation.

The (really bad) NM loss certainly hurts the kid from BYU. Also, he'll be hurt further w/o the inside help. And, as BYU gets exposure in the post-season, more East-coasters will get the opportunity to see his Defense, or lack thereof. So I foresee Nolan's prospects rising in the next few weeks, especially if Duke goes deep in the NCAAT and ACCT.

One element that would boost NS, if he gets there, would be the historic achievement of being the first player to ever lead the ACC in both scoring and assists.

Alas, it may be too little too late, as minds can be tough to change, but the more the voters see Fredette (and his D play), the better it is for Nolan.

P.S. One other factor could be if the two teams end up seeded in the same region. Many voters might see a head-to-head matchup as a terrific way to settle things. I salivate at that opportunity, on BOTH sides of the ball.

[superdave]

But when do people vote? The later the better I assume.

[Class of '94]

btw, "Class of '94" it was New Mexico, not Wyoming. Sports radio out here has UNM back in the tourney after their win last night.

Thanks for the correction....Sorry about that. And I imagine that win last night New Mexico was probably the biggest win for them of the season. And I'm hoping that Nolan has a huge game on Saturday and big ACCT (although I'm not sure if conference tournament performances are factored in NPOY consideration).

[cato]

And I imagine that win last night New Mexico was probably the biggest win for them of the season.

That was actually UNM's second win over BYU this season. They got it done in Utah when Davies was on the roster.

[Kedsy]

That was actually UNM's second win over BYU this season. They got it done in Utah when Davies was on the roster.

The first game (when Davies was on the roster) was at the Pit in New Mexico. The second UNM win (no Davies) was at Brigham Young.

[cato]

The first game (when Davies was on the roster) was at the Pit in New Mexico. The second UNM win (no Davies) was at Brigham Young.

Whoops. Thanks for the correction. That kind of evens out the score, although the first win is probably still more impressive.

[nmduke2001]

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/41876502/ns/sports-college_basketball/displaymode/1247/beginSlide/1/

[wgl1228]

I don't have the link but fox sports still has Nolan #1 this week in their top 10.

[PADukeMom]

Glad more people are starting to see it going Nolan's way.

[ChicagoHeel]

Looks like Roy agrees...

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/dukes-smith-would-get-roy-williams-player-of-the-year-vote-if-he-had-one

[superdave]

Looks like Roy agrees...

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/dukes-smith-would-get-roy-williams-player-of-the-year-vote-if-he-had-one

This is the 2nd time (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pymcjOpiII8)I've ever agreed with Roy.

[hq2]

This all reminds me a little of the GHill vs. Glenn Robinson debate in '94. Robinson got the NPOYs because statistically, he was better, even though anyone who knew anything about basketball knew that GHill was a better player. When they met head to head, it was actually about even; Robinson outscored him 13-11, as I recall, but GHill played a better overall game and Duke WON.

So, overall, when you add it all up on both sides of the court, Nolan is clearly a better player. However, Jimmer's got the stats and the funky name, so I think he may get it anyway. So be it. I'd love to see them play head-to head. Since Jimmer doesn't play any D, maybe Nolan could drop 35 on him, and end the discussion.

[wgl1228]

The talking heads (AKA ESPN) seem to be hyping up Jimmer because he racks up points and has a funny name. But if you browse the web you will find a lot of support for Nolan Smith from the writers. I know Fox Sports and NBC Sports have Nolan atop their lists. I know its still a long shot and wishful thinking but if Nolan had an incredible game tonight and they won, I suspect those with a vote would give it a second thought and should. I never really understood why all the Awards couldn't wait until after the NCAA Tournament.

[hq2]

Actually, in this instance, I'm kind of glad they aren't. GHill got annoyed at all the Robinson hype, and proceeded to beat Robinson and come one or two plays away from a championship. Since I think Jimmer will probably get it, I think Nolan will come into the tournament thinking he needs to prove he deserved it. Look for him to carry Duke into the Final Four while Jimmer and BYU (sans their recently departed big man) are dispatched in the second round.

[airowe]

http://bit.ly/i38jh1

[Highlander]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-allam030711

Just saw this a few min ago. Congrats to Nolan on at least one NPOY award! Here's to many more.

[DevilWearsPrada]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-allam030711

Just saw this a few min ago. Congrats to Nolan on at least one NPOY award! Here's to many more.

I read that this morning, early! But glad you posted it! I read Yahoo Sports, before goduke, or any Duke forum.

Congrats to NOLAN SMITH!! I have been speaking Nolan , NPOY for 2 months! He is so deserving! And I hope the other awards will come his way, also! LETS GO DUKE!

[JoshBellDC]

I know there has been a lot of discussion about Nolan and POY... personally, i feel Nolan's a more exceptional player in more facets of the game in a more competitive and talented conference vs. Jimmer, but many of the posters here are correct, the average voter seems to be more swayed by PPG and a catchy name/handle.

But on another subject, i recently came to my attention that Nolan has an outside chance of reaching a real milestone in Duke program history, and that's 2000 points for his career. Who could have imagined after Nolan's freshman and sophomore years averaging under 10 PPG that he would be right at the doorstep of this achievement. i ran across a blog this weekend tracking Nolan's path to 2000... interesting stuff. i wish Nolan luck.

http://ndotsmitty2000countdown.posterous.com/

JB

[Dr. Tina]

Fox Sports has named Nolan it's National Player of the Year as well...

http://msn.foxsports.com/collegebasketball/story/duke-blue-devils-notre-dame-fighting-irish-represented-postseason-honors-030711

It's great to see Nolan getting some NPOY love! :)

[Zeus12888]

Everyone vote Nolan for college basketball's top PG of 2011

http://www.cousyaward.com/vote.php

[cspan37421]

I read that this morning, early! But glad you posted it! I read Yahoo Sports, before goduke, or any Duke forum.

Congrats to NOLAN SMITH!! I have been speaking Nolan , NPOY for 2 months! He is so deserving! And I hope the other awards will come his way, also! LETS GO DUKE!

That's really interesting. I've always heard of criteria for jersey retirement (under K) to be some kind of Duke record, national record, or NPOY award (incl. NDPOY). I'm not sure Yahoo Sports' NPOY would be so well regarded as to qualify in Coach K's book, but it does add to the suspense.

OTOH aren't jersey retirements for Coach K's players done on their last home game? If so maybe it's already known that it won't happen. If not... have some occurred after the ACCT and NCAAT, such as at the BB banquet?

[wgl1228]

Many of these writers for Fox Sports, Yahoo, and elsewhere have votes for NPOY. Do you think Smith has a chance now?

[Zeus12888]

FWIW, I distinctly remember JJ and Shelden's being retired long after their senior game...February 4, 2007, according to Wikipedia. (JJ was drafted in June 2006, for comparison)


That's really interesting. I've always heard of criteria for jersey retirement (under K) to be some kind of Duke record, national record, or NPOY award (incl. NDPOY). I'm not sure Yahoo Sports' NPOY would be so well regarded as to qualify in Coach K's book, but it does add to the suspense.

OTOH aren't jersey retirements for Coach K's players done on their last home game? If so maybe it's already known that it won't happen. If not... have some occurred after the ACCT and NCAAT, such as at the BB banquet?

[Highlander]

FWIW, I distinctly remember JJ and Shelden's being retired long after their senior game...February 4, 2007, according to Wikipedia. (JJ was drafted in June 2006, for comparison)

After Battier, K decided to retire jerseys the following year. The rationale was that retiring a jersey during a regular season game put a ridiculous amount of pressure on the team to "win one" for the guy getting his jersey retired.

Not sure if Kyle or Nolan should qualify (reasonable arguments for both scenarios), but wouldn't be surprised to see one or both hang from the rafters before the end of next year.

[SCMatt33]

I know there has been a lot of discussion about Nolan and POY... personally, i feel Nolan's a more exceptional player in more facets of the game in a more competitive and talented conference vs. Jimmer, but many of the posters here are correct, the average voter seems to be more swayed by PPG and a catchy name/handle.

But on another subject, i recently came to my attention that Nolan has an outside chance of reaching a real milestone in Duke program history, and that's 2000 points for his career. Who could have imagined after Nolan's freshman and sophomore years averaging under 10 PPG that he would be right at the doorstep of this achievement. i ran across a blog this weekend tracking Nolan's path to 2000... interesting stuff. i wish Nolan luck.

http://ndotsmitty2000countdown.posterous.com/

JB

I've been updating a thread here on that topic (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?24162-Could-Nolan-reach-2000&p=482393#post482393). I normally wouldn't care about promoting my own thread, but that blog you linked seems to be wrong factually. Whoever is updating it assumes that Duke would play 10 more games if we went all the way and not 9. I just can't stand factual errors.

As for being on topic for this particular thread, I'm starting to get the feeling that while Jimmer will still win most of the awards, I think that Nolan might get one or two of them a la JJ in '05.

[HK Dukie]

As for being on topic for this particular thread, I'm starting to get the feeling that while Jimmer will still win most of the awards, I think that Nolan might get one or two of them a la JJ in '05.

Scroll up. He has already won three awards.

1. Foxsports NPOY
2. Yahoosports NPOY
3. HK Dukie NPOY

:cool:

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Congrats to Nolan for winning these NPOY awards! IMHO, this pretty much seals the deal on his having his jersey retired, doesn't it! Now, on to the much more important business of winning the ACC Tournament title and NCAA Tournament title! :cool:

[wgl1228]

Congrats to Nolan for winning these NPOY awards! IMHO, this pretty much seals the deal on his having his jersey retired, doesn't it! Now, on to the much more important business of winning the ACC Tournament title and NCAA Tournament title! :cool:

I'm not so sure because these are websites and not the major awards such as the Wooden or Naismith trophies. Hopefully one group of these voters will not fall for the chucker Jimmer who just racks up points.

[CDu]

Scroll up. He has already won three awards.

1. Foxsports NPOY
2. Yahoosports NPOY
3. HK Dukie NPOY

:cool:

I think he meant more nationally recognized honors. I'm not sure that website honors like Foxsports and Yahoo are recognized. I'm not sure what the list of "recognized" honors is, but those seem pretty low on the totem pole to me.

Regardless, it's definitely nice that he's getting some national honors. The kid has been amazing.

[SCMatt33]

I think he meant more nationally recognized honors. I'm not sure that website honors like Foxsports and Yahoo are recognized. I'm not sure what the list of "recognized" honors is, but those seem pretty low on the totem pole to me.

Regardless, it's definitely nice that he's getting some national honors. The kid has been amazing.

That's definitely what I meant. For me, if Duke recognizes it and would renovate the museum to slot Nolan in next to JJ, it counts. Otherwise, I don't really care about it. I think that the website awards are cool, but they are essentially the whims of a few writers.

Like almost everything in life, Wikipedia has a good list. I can't say for sure that it is complete, but they list the Wooden, Naismith, NABC, USBWA (Oscar Robertson Trophy), Rupp, AP, and Sporting News awards. They also list the now-defunct Helms and UPI awards. I know Duke recognizes those awards, though I'm not sure if there are any others.

[msdukie]

These are the six recognized NPOY awards: Wooden, Naismith, NABC, USBWA (Oscar Robertson Trophy), Rupp, AP.

Sporting News and SI awards are not included.

I would like to point out, again, though that Kyle is the 2010 Sporting News National College Athlete of the Year...for whatever that is worth.

[SCMatt33]

These are the six recognized NPOY awards: Wooden, Naismith, NABC, USBWA (Oscar Robertson Trophy), Rupp, AP.

Sporting News and SI awards are not included.

I would like to point out, again, though that Kyle is the 2010 Sporting News National College Athlete of the Year...for whatever that is worth.

Duke definitely recognizes the Sporting News award. If you look closely at the NPOY display (http://www.blueplanetshots.com/2010-11/Cameron/New-MuseumHall-of-Fame/14308021_TEyee#1058774123_Kuww6-O-LB), the Sporting News is listed for Elton, Shane, JWill, and JJ. I'm not sure how you tell whether it's recognized nationally or not, but Duke definitely recognizes it, and it is presented equally on Wikipedia (not that Wikipedia is any kind of authority, but people there are generally pretty strict about what deserves equal recognition). The award that Kyle won is different from the NPOY award in that it is an end of the calendar year award, and therefore was heavily influenced by tournament play. The NPOY award was given to Evan Turner last year.

[CDu]

Congrats to Nolan for winning these NPOY awards! IMHO, this pretty much seals the deal on his having his jersey retired, doesn't it! Now, on to the much more important business of winning the ACC Tournament title and NCAA Tournament title! :cool:

I don't think it "seals" anything regarding to jersey retirement as these website awards aren't really acknowledged as major awards. It's an honor though, and perhaps it portends some major national award (or more) to come for him.

But still, it's nice to see Smith getting recognition for his amazing season.

[Newton_14]

I think he meant more nationally recognized honors. I'm not sure that website honors like Foxsports and Yahoo are recognized. I'm not sure what the list of "recognized" honors is, but those seem pretty low on the totem pole to me.

Regardless, it's definitely nice that he's getting some national honors. The kid has been amazing.

I second that. I was thinking about this earlier, has there ever been a Duke kid that improved as much as Nolan has over the course of their career? Ever? What about a non-Duke player? I cannot think of a Duke player off the top of my head, even though stats wise, Battier and Nolan are similar. But Shane came in as a top 3 recruit on a loaded team and was asked to play a role his first two years. We all knew he would be a star. We had no idea where Nolan was headed. As for other teams, Lorenzo Charles made a big jump, though not as big as Nolan.

K made a comment last spring that I admit not fulling believing. He said that Nolan obviously made a huge improvement in his game from his sophomore to junior year, but he would make an even bigger jump his senior year. I was skeptical to say the least. However, I went over to Central in August to watch the summer league, and at that point I believed K. Nolan had made tremendous strides from the National Championship game in April to that hot August evening. Watching him play was captivating. His confidence, ball handling, mid-range jumper, etc were just amazing to watch.

He has come a long way since that dreadful night at Clemson in 2008. I for one think we are witnessing the greatest level of improvement in a Duke player there has even been. I hope he brings home several of the recognized NPOY awards as he darn sure deserves them. No offense to Jimmer, who is a great player, but for me, Nolan's defense and total game gives him the nod over Jimmer and the others in my book.

The level of improvement is just insane..

[HK Dukie]

You could make a case for Danny Ferry improving almost as much, although I think he came in a little better.

Ferry's ppg went 6/14/19/23. Rebounds and Assists in soph, jun, senior pretty consistent after big soph improvement.

The thing for Nolan is that he has improved every level of his game. And as the yahoosports NPOY article mentioned is contributing a ton off the court too. I think K will be looking for an excuse to retire this guy's jersey and even if this award isn't officially recognized, it's darn close, so he can maintain his standards and still retire Nolan.

[OldPhiKap]

You could make a case for Danny Ferry improving almost as much, although I think he came in a little better.

Ferry's ppg went 6/14/19/23. Rebounds and Assists in soph, jun, senior pretty consistent after big soph improvement.

The thing for Nolan is that he has improved every level of his game. And as the yahoosports NPOY article mentioned is contributing a ton off the court too. I think K will be looking for an excuse to retire this guy's jersey and even if this award isn't officially recognized, it's darn close, so he can maintain his standards and still retire Nolan.

IIRC, Ferry was the #1 or #2 Hs player in the country depending on who you asked (the kid who got hurt out of ND was the other guy --David Rivers? -- I remember J Dawkins reverse dunking on him in Cameron). Also, IIRC, Danny started a good number of games as a Frosh. I don't know where Nolan was ranked, but it is hard to think of someone who grew more at Duke. Shane Battier, maybe, although again I think Shane had a higher profile coming in.

[tieguy]

Shane won at least one high school npoy award, and while he did improve every year offensively, he was already defensive npoy by his sophomore year. So Nolan probably wins "most improved"pretty easily (at least over shane.)

[gw67]

Smith is certainly a player whose performance has improved significantly over the four years he has been enrolled. Ferry started slowly and improved as he became an upperclassman as did Juan Dixon. Off the top of my head, the most improved ACC player over his career was Tom Gugliotta. To say that Gugliotta was lightly regarded as a high school player is an understatement. It is my understanding that Valvano only offered Tom a scholarship because he was good friends with Tom's dad who was his high school coach. As a freshman, he primarily sat on the bench and he averaged 2.0 ppg. He put on a little weight and averaged 11 ppg as a soph and followed that with 15.2 and 22.5 ppg in his junior and senior years. He improved his rebounding and assists every year and played in an era when ACC was the best conference in the country. He played with or against some of the best players in ACC history - Laettner, Hurley, G. Hill, Monroe, Corchiani, K. Anderson, Stith, R. Rodgers, D. Scott, W. Williams, G. Lynch, E. Campbell and R. Fox. Googs was an All ACC selection his last two years.

gw67

[ForkFondler]

Lenny Bias. That is who Nolan reminds me of.

[OldPhiKap]

Lenny Bias. That is who Nolan reminds me of.

Bias was probably better at getting his own shot, w/o screens. Freak of nature.

Ah, what could have been . . . .

[jimsumner]

IIRC, Ferry was the #1 or #2 Hs player in the country depending on who you asked (the kid who got hurt out of ND was the other guy --David Rivers? -- I remember J Dawkins reverse dunking on him in Cameron). Also, IIRC, Danny started a good number of games as a Frosh. I don't know where Nolan was ranked, but it is hard to think of someone who grew more at Duke. Shane Battier, maybe, although again I think Shane had a higher profile coming in.



It should be noted that Ferry was a freshman on a team that starred seniors Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, David Henderson and Jay Bilas and junior Tommy Amaker. So, Duke didn't really need him to be more than a complementary player.

[PADukeMom]

Congrats Nolan on ACC POY. If his number isn't retired I am going to get a very tall ladder & hang it up there myself. :cool:;)

[OldPhiKap]

It should be noted that Ferry was a freshman on a team that starred seniors Johnny Dawkins, Mark Alarie, David Henderson and Jay Bilas and junior Tommy Amaker. So, Duke didn't really need him to be more than a complementary player.

True, although I think David became "the best sixth man ever" in favor of Billy King and/or Danny at various points in time.

Danny was one of the first outside-shooting big men, a role Christian Laettner perfected a few years later. Son of a coach as well, so he had off-the-chart court IQ. Could get a little bump-foul-shot off like no one's business.

I still wonder what might have happened if he had not chosen to go to Italy after college in lieu of the Clippers (IIRC).

[trinity92]

What about Phil Henderson as a measuring tape of a guy that developed from bench player to Duke star:

Season Averages Courtesy of GoDuke player database:

1986-87 11.8 mins/7.3 pts.

1987-88 16.5/5.9

1988-89 29.6/12.7

1989-90 31.5/18.5

By his senior year, Phil was the star of a national runner-up team and top scorer with a Sophomore Christian Laettner #2. Phil was also one of my favorite Duke players ever, just like Nolan. I don't recall him getting National recognition via AA team though.

[hq2]

The thing for Nolan is that he has improved every level of his game. And as the yahoosports NPOY article mentioned is contributing a ton off the court too. I think K will be looking for an excuse to retire this guy's jersey and even if this award isn't officially recognized, it's darn close, so he can maintain his standards and still retire Nolan.


Yes, but Jersey retirements are for an entire career. I'd say Nolan really needs another NC (looking very unlikely now) to balance out the first two years. Otherwise, his resume' looks more like players that didn't get it than those who did. (Although some more NPOYs could make it close.)

[OldPhiKap]

(looking very unlikely now)

Not as unlikely-looking as this time last year, when Jon was struggling and there were some monster teams out there (Ky, Kansas, Syracuse, Purdue up until Hummel's injury). In fact, with two seniors who have been there before, I would say we have as good a chance as anyone and better than most.

[SCMatt33]

Yes, but Jersey retirements are for an entire career. I'd say Nolan really needs another NC (looking very unlikely now) to balance out the first two years. Otherwise, his resume' looks more like players that didn't get it than those who did. (Although some more NPOYs could make it close.)

Which player that didn't get his jersey retired does Nolan resemble? I've already said that I think he needs to steal one of the "major" NPOY awards from Jimmer to get it, but I can't really find anyone who is comparable to Nolan in this debate. It's true that Nolan's first two years are worse than anyone who got his jersey retired, but his last two are arguably better than anyone who didn't, especially if he adds the appropriate hardware. I mean, who has gone from losing a starting job his sophomore year to 1st team AA, possible NPOY (not counting website awards), ACCPOY, unanimous 1st team all-ACC, and all-ACC defensive team. If he rebounds well the rest of the way, he could be the only guy not named Dick Groat to ever average 20-5-5 for Duke. Considering that no one has ever both won a major NPOY award and graduated from Duke without getting his jersey retired, I have a hard time seeing Nolan passed over, no matter how this team does in the tourney.

The only caveat for me is that it just doesn't feel right that Nolan could get his jersey retired and not Kyle. Kyle was better than Nolan each of their first three years, so it feels weird in that sense. As far as Kyle goes, I just can't see why Kyle should get his jersey retired if Mark Alarie didn't. At the end of the day though, I just don't know what will happen since like the website POY awards, this sort of thing is highly dependent on the whims of a very select few.

[1 24 90]

I always thought it would be cool to somehow "retire" a jersey representing the starting 5 from last year especially if none of them get the honor individually. Somewhat similar to what Kentucky did with the "unforgettables".

[OldPhiKap]

Which player that didn't get his jersey retired does Nolan resemble? I've already said that I think he needs to steal one of the "major" NPOY awards from Jimmer to get it, but I can't really find anyone who is comparable to Nolan in this debate. It's true that Nolan's first two years are worse than anyone who got his jersey retired, but his last two are arguably better than anyone who didn't, especially if he adds the appropriate hardware. I mean, who has gone from losing a starting job his sophomore year to 1st team AA, possible NPOY (not counting website awards), ACCPOY, unanimous 1st team all-ACC, and all-ACC defensive team. If he rebounds well the rest of the way, he could be the only guy not named Dick Groat to ever average 20-5-5 for Duke. Considering that no one has ever both won a major NPOY award and graduated from Duke without getting his jersey retired, I have a hard time seeing Nolan passed over, no matter how this team does in the tourney.

The only caveat for me is that it just doesn't feel right that Nolan could get his jersey retired and not Kyle. Kyle was better than Nolan each of their first three years, so it feels weird in that sense. As far as Kyle goes, I just can't see why Kyle should get his jersey retired if Mark Alarie didn't. At the end of the day though, I just don't know what will happen since like the website POY awards, this sort of thing is highly dependent on the whims of a very select few.

Somewhere recently, there was a very good discussion about Kyle compared to Alarie (who I wish they would retire). Kyle has the following national awards (at minimum):

2010 NCAA Tournament Final Four Most Outstanding Player
2010 Sporting News College Athlete of the Year

So I think he could qualify under the criteria. And, as I have said before, he came back when most thought he would not. Loyalty should count for something. Plus, Nolan said that he would have gone if Kyle had gone. So that's a two-fer.

[superdave]

Which player that didn't get his jersey retired does Nolan resemble? I've already said that I think he needs to steal one of the "major" NPOY awards from Jimmer to get it, but I can't really find anyone who is comparable to Nolan in this debate. It's true that Nolan's first two years are worse than anyone who got his jersey retired, but his last two are arguably better than anyone who didn't, especially if he adds the appropriate hardware. I mean, who has gone from losing a starting job his sophomore year to 1st team AA, possible NPOY (not counting website awards), ACCPOY, unanimous 1st team all-ACC, and all-ACC defensive team. If he rebounds well the rest of the way, he could be the only guy not named Dick Groat to ever average 20-5-5 for Duke. Considering that no one has ever both won a major NPOY award and graduated from Duke without getting his jersey retired, I have a hard time seeing Nolan passed over, no matter how this team does in the tourney.

The only caveat for me is that it just doesn't feel right that Nolan could get his jersey retired and not Kyle. Kyle was better than Nolan each of their first three years, so it feels weird in that sense. As far as Kyle goes, I just can't see why Kyle should get his jersey retired if Mark Alarie didn't. At the end of the day though, I just don't know what will happen since like the website POY awards, this sort of thing is highly dependent on the whims of a very select few.

You voice a lot of the ifs/ands/buts that go into the jersey retirement arguments.

The major thing that sets Nolan and Kyle ahead of Alarie and Langdon is last year's title and their huge role in winning it. Alarie and Langdon fell short on the title (while Scheyer finished 2nd team AA and out of the top 5 in career scoring). Also, there's a lot of basketball left to be played this year. The more wins and titles and awards they rack up, the easier a case they will have. Another Final Four appearance and these guys leap-frog Redick-Williams in my estimation. Nolan and Kyle do seem tied to one another in their chances in most people's minds though.

[mapei]

I'm not sure there is a difference any more in prestige between "website" and print-media awards, unless it's with people 60+ years old. Websites *are* the dominant media now, and print media will never again be what they were. I'm not saying that's a good thing, but it is the case.

[House G]

Lenny Bias. That is who Nolan reminds me of.

Not sure how Nolan is like Bias, who was a 6'8" power forward (other than being great players).

[SCMatt33]

You voice a lot of the ifs/ands/buts that go into the jersey retirement arguments.

The major thing that sets Nolan and Kyle ahead of Alarie and Langdon is last year's title and their huge role in winning it. Alarie and Langdon fell short on the title (while Scheyer finished 2nd team AA and out of the top 5 in career scoring). Also, there's a lot of basketball left to be played this year. The more wins and titles and awards they rack up, the easier a case they will have. Another Final Four appearance and these guys leap-frog Redick-Williams in my estimation. Nolan and Kyle do seem tied to one another in their chances in most people's minds though.

I totally agree that both should be retired (probably should have made that clear). Both are just interesting cases because there are few direct comparables, especially for Nolan. Kyle definitely is slightly better than Alarie in almost every area, but since non of us know for sure just how close Alarie was to retirement, it doesn't really tell us anything about Kyle. Without a "major" NPOY award, Nolan is an interesting case. I probably should replace major with "Duke recognized." All that matters is whether Coach K counts the award. Something tells me that they aren't putting Nolan next to JJ because Jeff Goodman said so. Again don't get me wrong, I hope that they are both retired even if Nolan doesn't get one of the big NPOY awards, but I don't see the team accomplishments from this year affecting where they belong. My original response was to a post that said Nolan needs another championship to get it. I just don't believe that is the case. If they had never been to a Final Four, I might think so, but as Coach K likes to say, they are "champions forever." Therefore, they are champions with or without team accomplishments this year.

[HK Dukie]

Larry Drew should get the NPOY.

Who else's decisions had more of an impact on a team this year?

[DevilHorns]

If defense mattered at all for NPOY...

Nolan crushes Jimmer.

[ForkFondler]

Not sure how Nolan is like Bias, who was a 6'8" power forward (other than being great players).

Mere mortals as freshman, they both developed into complete beasts as seniors.

[Highlander]

I totally agree that both should be retired (probably should have made that clear). Both are just interesting cases because there are few direct comparables, especially for Nolan. Kyle definitely is slightly better than Alarie in almost every area, but since non of us know for sure just how close Alarie was to retirement, it doesn't really tell us anything about Kyle. Without a "major" NPOY award, Nolan is an interesting case. I probably should replace major with "Duke recognized." All that matters is whether Coach K counts the award. Something tells me that they aren't putting Nolan next to JJ because Jeff Goodman said so. Again don't get me wrong, I hope that they are both retired even if Nolan doesn't get one of the big NPOY awards, but I don't see the team accomplishments from this year affecting where they belong. My original response was to a post that said Nolan needs another championship to get it. I just don't believe that is the case. If they had never been to a Final Four, I might think so, but as Coach K likes to say, they are "champions forever." Therefore, they are champions with or without team accomplishments this year.

Alarie's senior year was all about Johnny Dawkins, and at the time Duke had only two retired jerseys (Groat and Gminski). So the big question was whether Dawkins would get his number retired, given how few in the past had received that honor (Heyman & Mullins would receive theirs in the coming years). Alarie was never really in the discussion, because the idea of having TWO players on one team getting their number retired was unheard of, especially since that would have doubled the number of retired jerseys.

As for Kyle and Nolan, I'm fine either way. However, we're getting short on #s for the team to wear at this point, so I think a secondary honor is definitely in order.

[hq2]

Alarie was never really in the discussion, because the idea of having TWO players on one team getting their number retired was unheard of, especially since that would have doubled the number of retired jerseys.



Alarie was never really in the discussion because he wasn't as good a player as the ones whose jerseys were retired.

[Dr. Tina]

If defense mattered at all for NPOY...

Nolan crushes Jimmer.

Totally second this, but I could also say...

If having an all-around amazing game (offense and defense) mattered for NPOY...

Nolan > Jimmer

[DallasDevil]

I haven't seen any mention of this on here, but yesterday Nolan was named to the USBWA All-America first team.

http://www.sportswriters.net/usbwa/news/2011/allamerica110314.html

He is now a finalist for the Oscar Robertson Trophy, and he and Kyle are both finalists for the Wooden award. Congrats!

[flyingdutchdevil]

Totally second this, but I could also say...

If having an all-around amazing game (offense and defense) mattered for NPOY...

Nolan > Jimmer

Luke Winn said it best: Jimmer would most likely win NPOY over Nolan Smith because he is a more exciting player to follow and watch. However, he also said that he doesn't know any coach that would choose Jimmer over Nolan for their own team.

Nolan is the quintessential basketball guard and possibly the best teammate imaginable. IMO, I can't think of a Duke player - Battier included - who has meant more to his teammates in a single season (I know, I know - one hell of a statement to make).

I've had my signature for 2 years running and plan on having it for a few more years.

Go Nolan. And Go Duke.