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4decadedukie
02-18-2011, 01:52 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6133474

Reversing its previous decision, the NCAA will now permit UNC-CH’s Devon Ramsay to return to intercollegiate football, after having permanently excluded him incident to the Tarheel program’s multiple ethics issues.

mkline09
02-18-2011, 02:01 PM
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6133474

Reversing its previous decision, the NCAA will now permit UNC-CH’s Devon Ramsay to return to intercollegiate football, after having permanently excluded him incident to the Tarheel program’s multiple ethics issues.

No big surprise here at least to me. After the NCAA basically let Cam Newton and Auburn off scott free I would have a hard time seeing them inforce much of anything on anyone for fear of even more scruitiny.

jdj4duke
02-18-2011, 03:30 PM
Guess we know who gets all the calls, and has the NCAA in their pockets.

OldPhiKap
02-18-2011, 03:35 PM
Is everything done, or are there still pending issues with the UNC agent/cheating mess?

-bdbd
02-18-2011, 03:45 PM
Is everything done, or are there still pending issues with the UNC agent/cheating mess?

Is Butch Davis still employed there?

For all the grief we/I enjoy giving their fans, I think most Duke fans wouldn't begrudge UNC a solid standing as a do-it-the-right-way kind of athletic department, generally. But this sure has to leave a sour taste in the mouths of any fans there with lingering illusions of their program being above that sort of "dirty hands" stuff. I'm sincerely disappointed not to see greater accountability at the top of the FB program. $$ wins again.

-BD "or is there still another shoe to drop" BD

OldPhiKap
02-18-2011, 03:49 PM
For all the grief we/I enjoy giving their fans, I think most Duke fans wouldn't begrudge UNC a solid standing as a do-it-the-right-way kind of athletic department, generally. But this sure has to leave a sour taste in the mouths of any fans there with lingering illusions of their program being above that sort of "dirty hands" stuff. I'm sincerely disappointed not to see greater accountability at the top of the FB program. $$ wins again.


x2.

Looks like the biggest difference between UNC and Clemson is that one is next to a pretty lake.

JasonEvans
02-18-2011, 05:50 PM
Is everything done, or are there still pending issues with the UNC agent/cheating mess?

I believe that the NCAA has completed their investigation and will, at some point, issue a report with their findings. Carolina will respond at that point. Then, the NCAA will decide what, if any, sanctions/penalties are warranted. Carolina will likely appeal.

-Jason "it is a long process -- could easily take a year" Evans

OldPhiKap
02-18-2011, 11:22 PM
I believe that the NCAA has completed their investigation and will, at some point, issue a report with their findings. Carolina will respond at that point. Then, the NCAA will decide what, if any, sanctions/penalties are warranted. Carolina will likely appeal.

-Jason "it is a long process -- could easily take a year" Evans

Thanks.

Unfortunately, that sounds like a slap on the wrist is coming.

NCAA = big fat joke.

Love to be proved wrong. But if a good part of the team can be involved with an agent, and another good part of the team can cheat on tests, why bother.

moonpie23
02-19-2011, 08:25 AM
http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/19/1000135/unc-sends-mixed-signals-with-disciplinary.html

hudlow
02-19-2011, 10:12 AM
http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/02/19/1000135/unc-sends-mixed-signals-with-disciplinary.html



“Don't tell me where your priorities are. Show me where you spend your money and I'll tell you what they are.”

James W. Frick

sagegrouse
03-02-2011, 12:44 PM
The NC attorney general is after financial and other records (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6174078) of agent Gary Wichard's company relating to potential violations of NC laws about the agent's paying of players.

sagegrouse

OldPhiKap
03-02-2011, 01:12 PM
The NC attorney general is after financial and other records (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6174078) of agent Gary Wichard's company relating to potential violations of NC laws about the agent's paying of players.

sagegrouse

Dig, AG, dig! If UNC won't do anything about integrity, it falls to you!

4decadedukie
03-03-2011, 08:14 PM
The NC attorney general is after financial and other records (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6174078) of agent Gary Wichard's company relating to potential violations of NC laws about the agent's paying of players.

sagegrouse

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=6174078

To amplify slightly on Sage's post, ESPN now reports that a subpoena has been issued for financial records and information; it will be interesting to see if the agent(s) will implicate others to save themselves.

DukeUsul
03-12-2011, 12:04 AM
Did I just hear on WRAL that agent Gary Wichard is dead?

ETA: Yup. http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/football/other_nfl/view/20110311suspended_nfl_agent_gary_wichard_dies_at_6 0/srvc=home&position=recent

oldnavy
03-12-2011, 07:02 AM
Did I just hear on WRAL that agent Gary Wichard is dead?

ETA: Yup. http://news.bostonherald.com/sports/football/other_nfl/view/20110311suspended_nfl_agent_gary_wichard_dies_at_6 0/srvc=home&position=recent

That is a tough way to go, prayers for his family and friends....

roywhite
05-01-2011, 09:25 AM
UNC had 9 players chosen in the NFL draft, most of any college. Of course, several of them missed games or the entire 2010 season due to scandal, turning a potentially great season into a half-decent season.

Will Butch Davis and crew put a Calipari-like spin on this and call the draft one of the great weekends in UNC football history?

Devilsfan
05-01-2011, 08:17 PM
Of course they will. He's unc's answer to Uconn, Ky, Az (lute) basketball coaches.

moonpie23
05-01-2011, 10:08 PM
can the name of this thread be changed? cause there's really no scandal.....nothing's gonna happen, no one is in trouble or anything....

Newton_14
05-22-2011, 03:05 PM
After everything that went on with the UNC Football program last season, one would think caution would be used moving forward. Guess not.

NCAA back on campus investigating the Quinton Coples situation. Coples attended a draft party for Marvin Lewis and Robert Quinn. The latest story on WRAL contains newly released photo's from the party with Coples front and center sporting a really nice watch.

Will be interesting to see the UNC AD and Butch spin this one away.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/image_gallery/9623152/

devildeac
05-22-2011, 03:52 PM
After everything that went on with the UNC Football program last season, one would think caution would be used moving forward. Guess not.

NCAA back on campus investigating the Quinton Coples situation. Coples attended a draft party for Marvin Lewis and Robert Quinn. The latest story on WRAL contains newly released photo's from the party with Coples front and center sporting a really nice watch.

Will be interesting to see the UNC AD and Butch spin this one away.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/image_gallery/9623152/

Another year probation and/or loss of scholarships for ECU?:rolleyes:

uh_no
05-22-2011, 06:31 PM
Another year probation and/or loss of scholarships for ECU?:rolleyes:

nah, they just T'd up dan ewing

Devilsfan
05-22-2011, 07:00 PM
The NCAA needs to send a message to powerhouses USC, Ohio State and the like by setting an example. I would reinstate the Death Penalty and give it to uncch as a warning to the others. Just a thought.

wilko
05-22-2011, 08:00 PM
The NCAA needs to send a message to powerhouses USC, Ohio State and the like by setting an example. I would reinstate the Death Penalty and give it to uncch as a warning to the others. Just a thought.

If they wanted to REALLY penalize UNC and send a message they would penalize the B-Ball team. THAT would hit them where it hurts... FB is Gravy and is still distraction until the hardwood heats up.

Don't believe me.. folks got testy when Roy wore a Kansas Sticker... a freaking sticker.. to support guys he walked out on (thats another story) If HE had changed the color of the UNI's the way Butch did...

Stick a fork in him..

That Butch could march his guys out there and NOT have a fan rebellion for wearing something close to Duke Blue proves no one cares... AS COMPARED TO BASKETBALL.

So where is the importance at UNC? We all know where the lemmings live.
I Hope you are right and the NCAA hits them where it hurts... but I doubt it will come to much either way...

Newton_14
05-22-2011, 08:13 PM
If they wanted to REALLY penalize UNC and send a message they would penalize the B-Ball team. THAT would hit them where it hurts... FB is Gravy and is still distraction until the hardwood heats up.

Don't believe me.. folks got testy when Roy wore a Kansas Sticker... a freaking sticker.. to support guys he walked out on (thats another story) If HE had changed the color of the UNI's the way Butch did...

Stick a fork in him..

That Butch could march his guys out there and NOT have a fan rebellion for wearing something close to Duke Blue proves no one cares... AS COMPARED TO BASKETBALL.

So where is the importance at UNC? We all know where the lemmings live.
I Hope you are right and the NCAA hits them where it hurts... but I doubt it will come to much either way...

Good one Wilko! Can you imagine the Heels taking the court against, oh, say Clemson, donning Navy Blue Basketball uni's? They would hang Ol Roy in Effigy that very night!

I would DVR that game and burn it to DVD as a permanent icon.

As for Coples, what a dumb thing to do.

devildeac
05-22-2011, 08:31 PM
Good one Wilko! Can you imagine the Heels taking the court against, oh, say Clemson, donning Navy Blue Basketball uni's? They would hang Ol Roy in Effigy that very night!

I would DVR that game and burn it to DVD as a permanent icon.

As for Coples, what a dumb thing to do.

Giving yet another meaning to unc:

university of
nin
compoops

(heck, university of numerous criminals, university of numerous cheaters and university of non-compliance have already been used:o:rolleyes:)

Newton_14
05-22-2011, 09:39 PM
Giving yet another meaning to unc:

university of
nin
compoops

(heck, university of numerous criminals, university of numerous cheaters and university of non-compliance have already been used:o:rolleyes:)

Look on the bright side though DD, it got their Football Program to the top of the College Football world! Oh wait, maybe not...

CameronBornAndBred
05-23-2011, 10:29 AM
Another year probation and/or loss of scholarships for ECU?:rolleyes:
Funny, but sadly true. Just to put things in perspective, ECU self reported violations early in the week 2 weeks ago for academic cheating. No agents involved. No money involved. They took it upon themselves to boot a couple of players earlier in the year, too. The teams involved were baseball and women's tennis. By the end of the week, the NCAA had placed EVERY SINGLE sport on probation. Note...by the end of the week! And yet here we are a year later, watching the NCAA still take their sweet time with unc. It's completely laughable.

bob blue devil
05-23-2011, 01:50 PM
any chance UNC was out of the woods prior to this week? a lot of tAr HOLES argued that was the case and the silence from the ncaa has been deafening.

JasonEvans
05-24-2011, 08:39 AM
any chance UNC was out of the woods prior to this week? a lot of tAr HOLES argued that was the case and the silence from the ncaa has been deafening.

When the NCAA concludes their investigation and reaches a finding, whether it be that Carolina was horrible or that Carolina is cleared, it will make an announcement. I think there is very little chance that UNC has been cleared and the administration as well as the NCAA are sitting on that news.

-Jason "I am growing frustrated at how long this is taking-- justice ain't swift for the NCAA" Evans

johnb
05-24-2011, 09:17 AM
one positive aspect of the delay is the opportunity it affords for off-season fantasy about the demise of Carolina.

Olympic Fan
05-24-2011, 12:50 PM
When the NCAA concludes their investigation and reaches a finding, whether it be that Carolina was horrible or that Carolina is cleared, it will make an announcement. I think there is very little chance that UNC has been cleared and the administration as well as the NCAA are sitting on that news.

-Jason "I am growing frustrated at how long this is taking-- justice ain't swift for the NCAA" Evans

When the story broke back in September, I was told that the NCAA wouldn't send its letter until June at the earliest -- and it would more likely come next fall. It takes a long time.

The fact that you have heard nothing from the NCAA for months is not a good sign or a bad sign. It's just the way the NCAA does business.

Jason is right -- if UNC were actually cleared by the NCAA, you'd hear it shouted from the rooftops.

Just be patient ... justice will be done.

OldPhiKap
05-24-2011, 12:55 PM
Just be patient ... justice will be done.

I have the patience, but not your faith in the outcome.

Devil in the Blue Dress
05-24-2011, 01:20 PM
I have the patience, but not your faith in the outcome.
It does appear that new situations are surfacing or emerging as time goes by. That factor alone could prolong the investigation.

I continue to be amazed that the wrongdoings seem to raise little concern or outcry.

yancem
05-24-2011, 01:40 PM
Good one Wilko! Can you imagine the Heels taking the court against, oh, say Clemson, donning Navy Blue Basketball uni's? They would hang Ol Roy in Effigy that very night!

I would DVR that game and burn it to DVD as a permanent icon.

As for Coples, what a dumb thing to do.

I wonder if a change in uni's would help Clemson finally win in Chapel Hill?

OldPhiKap
05-24-2011, 01:54 PM
I continue to be amazed that the wrongdoings seem to raise little concern or outcry.

Same here. For all of its faults (and I can give a long list), I have always thought that UNC had a sense of academic integrity and honor by and large. The fact that there is no action by the administration is a horrible indictment of what the school values these days I am afraid.

roywhite
05-24-2011, 02:15 PM
Same here. For all of its faults (and I can give a long list), I have always thought that UNC had a sense of academic integrity and honor by and large. The fact that there is no action by the administration is a horrible indictment of what the school values these days I am afraid.

Agree. Though we got a clue 10 years ago when UNC had as their commencement speaker......Stuart Scott of ESPN. :eek:

bob blue devil
05-24-2011, 08:24 PM
thanks all for the clarification

CameronBornAndBred
06-01-2011, 04:02 PM
The fact that the would-be-over investigation is not over, is not a good sign, though. Even worse sign, Robinson tells us that, members of the football staff have retained their own lawyers.


Thanks to Quinton Coples, unc is looking at a longer investigation.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9666329/

DevilWearsPrada
06-01-2011, 04:36 PM
Thanks to Quinton Coples, unc is looking at a longer investigation.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9666329/

That is all that was on Sports Radio this morning. Either Ohio State (more Ohio State), and Unc Football. I had to change the station. At least our Blue Devils, aren't in all of the negative mess and investigations. It is sad for Students and the Student Athletes that comply with the rules and honor code, to have to be subject to all of the scandal.

DOES UNC still mean University of Non Compliance? Even though, Unc is our Rivalry, I expect more from Unc than NCAA investigations. That is suppose to be for other schools like: Ohio State, Kentucky, UConn.

weezie
06-01-2011, 04:38 PM
Agree. Though we got a clue 10 years ago when UNC had as their commencement speaker......Stuart Scott of ESPN. :eek:

THAT nincompoop....

-bdbd
06-01-2011, 06:02 PM
THAT nincompoop....

Stu Scott, my all-time sports villain. He of the "yellow journalism" school of the ridiculous from CH, in his "hang them, then try them" coverage of the Nifong (NC grad)-created LAX scandal and a multi-part series on "Does Duke get all the calls???!" [Note, in a "you can't make this stuff up" footnote, that series kicked off on a Sportscenter eposode right after a game where Duke was upset at FSU by a field-goal, after being whistled for 30+ fouls (twice that of FSU) and having every single starter foul out of the game; yet he still managed to find one play to question, and played it over, and over again - a close, judgement decision on a Sheldon goal-tending non-call.]

Yeah, he's a gem. (Really surprised he's still around.) :rolleyes:


P.S. Gotta think that the stuff at OSU can't bode any good tidings for what is going to get adjudicated eventually by the NCAA in Chapel Hill...

moonpie23
06-02-2011, 09:20 AM
unfortunately, i am beginning to think that they are going to get away with a couple slaps on the wrist....

this is nothing like the usc or osu situations....they've kept butch, no one in the media is bringing forth anything devastating... one of their players showed up at a party...no big deal....

yeah, they're gonna skate...

oldnavy
06-02-2011, 09:35 AM
unfortunately, i am beginning to think that they are going to get away with a couple slaps on the wrist....

this is nothing like the usc or osu situations....they've kept butch, no one in the media is bringing forth anything devastating... one of their players showed up at a party...no big deal....

yeah, they're gonna skate...

I have to think that this may set them up for even a bigger fall later on. It is much easier to cheat after you have been allowed to get away with it.... just take a look at Tressel's history. By all accounts a pretty decent man, but was allowed to go unpunished for several transcreations going all the way back to Youngstown State.

If UNC sees that this kind of behavior is tolerated with little recourse, then why stop? Especially if you want to be a big time football program. The "Carolina Way" is no more. Any UNC fan that tries to take the holier than thou approach just needs to be reminded of how UNC rationalized all of this.

The best excuse I have heard is that "Butch didn't know". Really? The man is paid millions of dollars to be in charge, and his right hand man is a know cheater, and he didn't know? I find that enough reason right there to fire the man. He is supposed to know and even if he didn't (which I find hard to believe) he should have! Could he have done anything more to show that he is incompetent to run a program than not knowing what his closest assistant is doing and that there is wide spread NCAA violations occuring right under his nose? This isn't a case of a trainer or assistant linebacker coach and a couple of players, or just a player or two... this was multiple players and his next in line coach.... Well they can hide behind the claim he didn't know, but to me that would be almost as bad. If I pay someone a couple of million a year, I want them to know. But hey, that's just me.

Stand by... It always has a way of catching up to you.

sagegrouse
06-02-2011, 10:34 AM
unfortunately, i am beginning to think that they are going to get away with a couple slaps on the wrist....

this is nothing like the usc or osu situations....they've kept butch, no one in the media is bringing forth anything devastating... one of their players showed up at a party...no big deal....

yeah, they're gonna skate...

I think UNC will get what the NCAA views as severe penalties, such as loss of scholarships in football and double-secret probation for every sport, including intramural ping pong. I believe the penalites will have only a marginal effect on the teams affected.

I expect the coaches to survive absent a smoking gun (Tressel had two smoking guns in his hand). Even though the UNC administration would probably like to rid themselves of Butch, as a sop to its integrity, his loss could be devastating to a program likely to lose ten scholarships per year for three years.

I suppose UNC could also receive a football bowl ban of one or more years. I don't see anything likely to derail the basketball program, unless there is a future violation (where the probation could be a factor).

Even though the UNC violations are arguably more serious than Ohio State's, the smoking guns in Tressel's hands are catnip to a prosecutor -- he forwarded the accusatory e-mail to the player's "mentor," thereby proving he read it, and not to OSU compliance officials. And then he lied about it.

And the fascination with smoking guns is not limited to the NCAA. The pursuit of Goldman trader Fabrice Tourre by the SEC is because he wrote a bunch of e-mails, now in the hands of the SEC, joking about cheating widows and orphans. No one else has been named, even though Tourre was a mere functionary, and his bosses made all the decisions about the disastrous mortgage securities.

sagegrouse

Highlander
06-02-2011, 11:09 AM
Stu Scott, my all-time sports villain. He of the "yellow journalism" school of the ridiculous from CH, in his "hang them, then try them" coverage of the Nifong (NC grad)-created LAX scandal and a multi-part series on "Does Duke get all the calls???!" [Note, in a "you can't make this stuff up" footnote, that series kicked off on a Sportscenter eposode right after a game where Duke was upset at FSU by a field-goal, after being whistled for 30+ fouls (twice that of FSU) and having every single starter foul out of the game; yet he still managed to find one play to question, and played it over, and over again - a close, judgement decision on a Sheldon goal-tending non-call.]

Yeah, he's a gem. (Really surprised he's still around.) :rolleyes:



Per this article, Stuart Scott has cancer (again). (http://www.thewrap.com/media/column-post/espn-stuart-scott-battling-cancer-returns-sportscenter-24920) He's going thru chemo and recently had surgery. This is the second time he's been diagnosed with cancer, the last time was 3 years ago. The fact that it has come back is not a good sign. So while I don't necessarily like him as a commentator, I'd suggest we lay off the Stuart Scott critiques for awhile.

shoutingncu
06-02-2011, 02:26 PM
Look on the bright side though DD, it got their Football Program to the top of the College Football world! Oh wait, maybe not...

Of course we were at the top of the football world:


"The 2011 NFL Draft was the biggest moment in Carolina Football history." -- John Calipari

-bdbd
06-03-2011, 10:04 AM
Per this article, Stuart Scott has cancer (again). (http://www.thewrap.com/media/column-post/espn-stuart-scott-battling-cancer-returns-sportscenter-24920) He's going thru chemo and recently had surgery. This is the second time he's been diagnosed with cancer, the last time was 3 years ago. The fact that it has come back is not a good sign. So while I don't necessarily like him as a commentator, I'd suggest we lay off the Stuart Scott critiques for awhile.

Thx. Sorry to hear that. Wasn't aware. Of course doesn't change the evaluation of his anti-Duke theatrics on SC over the years. But I do wish him well in this fight. Nobody ever deserves that kind of illness.

richardjackson199
06-04-2011, 11:47 AM
So first reports sound like UNC is going to lose a minimal amount of scholarships, get probation (say you're sorry and don't do it again Billy), and possibly forfeit some wins. They will not be hit with "loss of institutional control," no postseason bans, no TV contract bans, and they keep Butch who of course knew nothing about what his main assistant, players, tutors, etc. were doing. UNC is getting off much better than USC or Ohio State. And given how widespread the problems at UNC were, this slap on the wrist seems to do virtually nothing to actually punish them. Lame.

oldnavy
06-04-2011, 01:33 PM
So first reports sound like UNC is going to lose a minimal amount of scholarships, get probation (say you're sorry and don't do it again Billy), and possibly forfeit some wins. They will not be hit with "loss of institutional control," no postseason bans, no TV contract bans, and they keep Butch who of course knew nothing about what his main assistant, players, tutors, etc. were doing. UNC is getting off much better than USC or Ohio State. And given how widespread the problems at UNC were, this slap on the wrist seems to do virtually nothing to actually punish them. Lame.

And they keep paying millions to the man in charge... who actually knows nothing at all about what the people he is responsible for are doing!

I guess it is easy to rationalize and forget that a major part of his job is to prevent the very thing that happened from happening as long as it looks like your program is heading towards being a top ten contender.

I still can't get over the "I had no idea" excuse. I guess I spent too many years in an organization that actually held those in charge responsible.

arnie
06-04-2011, 03:25 PM
And they keep paying millions to the man in charge... who actually knows nothing at all about what the people he is responsible for are doing!

I guess it is easy to rationalize and forget that a major part of his job is to prevent the very thing that happened from happening as long as it looks like your program is heading towards being a top ten contender.

I still can't get over the "I had no idea" excuse. I guess I spent too many years in an organization that actually held those in charge responsible.

Not sure Duke should continue playing teams like the heels anymore. The heels bring in players with no academic qualifications (Clemson rejects), promise them they will be tutored through the program and promise immediate contact with agents. So if that's how they treat college football (and we aren't going to do that), why continue to play them? The ACC has trended in that direction and with the possible exceptions of BC and maybe WF/GAT; the rest of the teams don't recruit with any academic standards.

JStuart
06-04-2011, 06:05 PM
And they keep paying millions to the man in charge... who actually knows nothing at all about what the people he is responsible for are doing!

I guess it is easy to rationalize and forget that a major part of his job is to prevent the very thing that happened from happening as long as it looks like your program is heading towards being a top ten contender.

I still can't get over the "I had no idea" excuse. I guess I spent too many years in an organization that actually held those in charge responsible.

No truer words have been spoken, OldNavy; my thoughts exactly. Why any self-respecting unc grad wouldn't say the same, and demand a thorough house-cleaning of the athletic department, I have no idea (well, yes, I do: they are unc fans, after all.)

davekay1971
06-04-2011, 10:46 PM
This is a slap on the wrist, at best, and further supports the notion that the NCAA is a bad joke. If what's been going on at UNC isn't the textbook definition of a lack of institutional control, I don't know what is.

The only outcome from this will be the absolutely correct feeling on the part of Butch Davis, the UNC athletic department and administration, and their fanbase, that they got away with it.

As for the rest of us, we now know that the UNC faithful, and the NCAA, are all just fine with the new "Carolina way"

Olympic Fan
06-05-2011, 12:27 PM
This is a slap on the wrist, at best, and further supports the notion that the NCAA is a bad joke. If what's been going on at UNC isn't the textbook definition of a lack of institutional control, I don't know what is.

The only outcome from this will be the absolutely correct feeling on the part of Butch Davis, the UNC athletic department and administration, and their fanbase, that they got away with it.

As for the rest of us, we now know that the UNC faithful, and the NCAA, are all just fine with the new "Carolina way"

You might be right, but let's wait and see what the penalties really are before we get our panties in a bunch. The source of all this information is a story by Greg Barnes on the Inside Carolina site. Barnes and IC have been consistently wrong about this story from the beginning -- and have consistently unestimated the impact.

flash
06-06-2011, 07:06 PM
Butch Davis (Sgt Schultz), "I know nothing".

Olympic Fan
06-07-2011, 05:02 PM
UNC just received the official letter of inquiry from the NCAA:

http://tarheelblue.cstv.com/auto_pdf/p_hotos/s_chools/unc/sports/m-footbl/auto_pdf/NoticeofInquiry0607

It's mostly a formality, except that it specifically states that the program "primarily football" is being officially investigated.

No more UNC BS about the "review" of their program.

kong123
06-07-2011, 06:27 PM
You know, I really haven't followed the investigation at all and what I know about it has come from reading this thread. I understand the hatred you guys have for everything UNC. I understand it is far reaching and will grab for any negative and try and use it to feed your hate.

But, for you to comment that the "Carolina Way" is gone and that UNC hasn't been proactive enough is really silly. The NCAA will hand out the punishments and nothing short of the death penalty will satisfy you. "Davis should have been fired. Punish the basketball team, that's where it will really hurt. We shouldn't play UNC in football anymore because they cheat". I have heard tons of this stuff and it usually made me laugh because I thought you guys were just having fun. Now, I am not so sure.

I believe if someone did something wrong, they should pay the price. UNC immediately kicked many of the starters off the team when they learned of the issues. To claim that Butch knew everything and even allowed it is speculation at best and that isn't tolerated on this site. From everything we have read, UNC has cooperated 100% of the way. Is that enough? I believe the moderators should follow some of these comments more closely in order to make sure the rules are not broken.

CameronBornAndBred
06-07-2011, 07:13 PM
You know, I really haven't followed the investigation at all and what I know about it has come from reading this thread. I understand the hatred you guys have for everything UNC. I understand it is far reaching and will grab for any negative and try and use it to feed your hate.

But, for you to comment that the "Carolina Way" is gone and that UNC hasn't been proactive enough is really silly. The NCAA will hand out the punishments and nothing short of the death penalty will satisfy you. "Davis should have been fired. Punish the basketball team, that's where it will really hurt. We shouldn't play UNC in football anymore because they cheat". I have heard tons of this stuff and it usually made me laugh because I thought you guys were just having fun. Now, I am not so sure.

I believe if someone did something wrong, they should pay the price. UNC immediately kicked many of the starters off the team when they learned of the issues. To claim that Butch knew everything and even allowed it is speculation at best and that isn't tolerated on this site. From everything we have read, UNC has cooperated 100% of the way. Is that enough? I believe the moderators should follow some of these comments more closely in order to make sure the rules are not broken.
Two comments...
First...who is "you"? That is a broad generalzation of the population of DBR. If you have specific names, at least quote what they say and respond with a decent debate. I've seen you do it before, not sure why you are including all of DBR in your reply this time.
Second..There may be a few, but I seriously doubt that the majority of us fall into the category of "nothing short of the death penalty will satisfy you".
You say "I believe if someone did something wrong, they should pay the price". I appreciate that. Now take off the baby blue glasses. I'll point you to ECU (as I've done already in this thread..and even FSU). ECU is more telling though. They got busted for cheating academically. They responded very quickly too, like you say carolina did, by kicking players off teams. Within ONE WEEK of their self report, every single sport in ECU was put on probation. Athletes were ruled permanently ineligible. Wins were vacated.
The sports involved? The massively revenue intensive baseball and women's tennis.
And now we have watched unc undergo a similar investigation, where they haven't admitted much but did take action internally, and they are about to get a wrist slap. Do the heels' transgressions warrant a death penalty? No. But they sure as hell should be above and beyond what ECU received, and it ain't gonna happen. And frankly, it is absolutely disgusting.

One last thought...the idea that your only knowledge of this case is through a Duke fan forum is hard to grasp. Go research on your own, and see if you still have your same opinion.

JStuart
06-07-2011, 07:59 PM
To claim that Butch knew everything and even allowed it is speculation at best and that isn't tolerated on this site. From everything we have read, UNC has cooperated 100% of the way. Is that enough? I believe the moderators should follow some of these comments more closely in order to make sure the rules are not broken.

What annoys me no end is the total acceptance by unc fans/supporters that the coach 'didn't know' of all the bad things going on. Regardless, as head coach he is RESPONSIBLE for all that happens under his watch (and I've heard precious few unc folks say, get him out of there, and clean house). Baddour should take responsibility as well. Those statements are not speculation. If unc were 100% cooperative, why is there a group of newspapers (including the Daily Tarheel) and TV stations suing UNC for release of phone records, traffic tickets, and etc.?
JStuart

Olympic Fan
06-08-2011, 01:23 AM
Kong,

If nothing else, Butch Davis is responsible for EVERYTHING John Blake did.

When he hired Blake, he had to know the reputation the man had. Everybody in college football knew the reputation of "Black Santa". He had to know that Blake had been a FULLTIME employee of an agent, charged with recruiting players for that agent.

Now, in itself, that's not enough to say that Davis shouldn't have hired Blake. But when you hire a former agent, aren't you responsible for making sure he doesn't continue to act as an agent? When it does turn out that he remained on the agent's payroll and helped funnel agent money to undergraduate players, can you then plead ignorance and suggest you couldn't be expected to know what was going on.

For that alone, Davis SHOULD be fired. If UNC had acted that way, I'd be the first to suggest they deserved minimal penalties. But when the school accepts his "Sgt. Shultz defense" and closes ranks around him, they deserve everything they get.

In Southern Cal, they got massive penalties (including a two-year bowl ban, forfeiture of games and loss of 20-some scholarships) because one assistant coach either knew or should have known that one player was receiving benefits. In UNC's case, we have over a dozen players receiving illegal benefits and an assistant coach (actually the Associate Head Coach) not only knew, but he actually funnelled the benefits to them. We also have a alleged drug dealer/agent given full access to the UNC facilities during the time Davis was supposed to be monitoring the program.

And this doesn't even begin to touch on the academic side of the scandal -- where it just so happened that the tutor helping players cheat was the one hired by Butch Davis to tutor his own son ... I guess that's just a coincience.

No, I don't think UNC should get the death penalty. But I do think Butch Davis should have been fired when Blake's misdeeds became known. But then, not even Blake was fired -- he was allowed to resign with full pay.

When UNC cast its lot with Davis, they threw away a hard-earned reputation for honesty. I used to defend the Carolina Way ... now, I don't see much difference between the Carolina way or the Auburn way or the Ohio State way.

OldPhiKap
06-08-2011, 01:00 PM
And this doesn't even begin to touch on the academic side of the scandal -- where it just so happened that the tutor helping players cheat was the one hired by Butch Davis to tutor his own son ... I guess that's just a coincience.

This is the part I find most disturbing. "The Carolina Way," no matter what else anyone wants to say, involved a sense of academic integrity (at least in my mind). UNC is a proud and fine institution. It does not appear to me that that the university is particularly proactive in finding out what happened here and handing out stern punishment. And the fact that much of the fanbase doesn't really see this as much of a problem is disconcerting to me.

Maybe I've been given UNC more credit than it deserves up to this point.

davekay1971
06-08-2011, 01:29 PM
This is the part I find most disturbing. "The Carolina Way," no matter what else anyone wants to say, involved a sense of academic integrity (at least in my mind). UNC is a proud and fine institution. It does not appear to me that that the university is particularly proactive in finding out what happened here and handing out stern punishment. And the fact that much of the fanbase doesn't really see this as much of a problem is disconcerting to me.

Maybe I've been given UNC more credit than it deserves up to this point.

I tend to agree with you on the first paragraph. UNC maintained a high quality of academic integrity in building a remarkably good athletic department. The only sport where they have routinely struggled over the last couple of decades is football. Unfortunately, chasing the football $$$ and glory appears to have become more important than maintaining their own high standards of academic integrity. It's a bad scandal, no matter what the UNC fans, administration, and journalists would have you believe. The head coach hires a guy with a known reputation of bending/breaking/ignoring the rules in recruiting to rapidly upgrade the talent. The head coach also hires a tutor who ends up writing papers for the athletes. Then the coach playes the "I didn't know!" card and the administration rallies around him (and the enthusiasm...and $$$...he's brought from the fanbase). Baddour and Davis threw the individual players under the bus while claiming personal innocence in the hope of keeping the system that allowed these problems to occur, but also helped to bring in NFL talent, in place.

oldnavy
06-08-2011, 02:34 PM
I tend to agree with you on the first paragraph. UNC maintained a high quality of academic integrity in building a remarkably good athletic department. The only sport where they have routinely struggled over the last couple of decades is football. Unfortunately, chasing the football $$$ and glory appears to have become more important than maintaining their own high standards of academic integrity. It's a bad scandal, no matter what the UNC fans, administration, and journalists would have you believe. The head coach hires a guy with a known reputation of bending/breaking/ignoring the rules in recruiting to rapidly upgrade the talent. The head coach also hires a tutor who ends up writing papers for the athletes. Then the coach playes the "I didn't know!" card and the administration rallies around him (and the enthusiasm...and $$$...he's brought from the fanbase). Baddour and Davis threw the individual players under the bus while claiming personal innocence in the hope of keeping the system that allowed these problems to occur, but also helped to bring in NFL talent, in place.


I agree. And again, the "I didn't know" excuse is just a way to rationalize the behavior of the head coach and athletic leadership.

Simply put they (UNC fandom) think Butch Davis gives them the best chance to be a contender on the national football scene and therefore they are willing to believe or at least accept that he did not know.
The problem is that the "I didn't know" excuse is either a lie or it is an admission of incompetence. Either way, if Davis worked for me he would be fired. He is either lying or he is a fool because only a fool would hire a person with Blake's reputation and expect that he would walk the straight and narrow all by himself. For the record I do not think Davis is a fool.

I still say give it a few years something else worse than this will turn up and the whole house of cards will come down. UNC has allowed this behavior to go unchecked and now it will fester and declare itself at a later time.

roywhite
06-08-2011, 04:10 PM
I agree. And again, the "I didn't know" excuse is just a way to rationalize the behavior of the head coach and athletic leadership.

Simply put they (UNC fandom) think Butch Davis gives them the best chance to be a contender on the national football scene and therefore they are willing to believe or at least accept that he did not know.
The problem is that the "I didn't know" excuse is either a lie or it is an admission of incompetence. Either way, if Davis worked for me he would be fired. He is either lying or he is a fool because only a fool would hire a person with Blake's reputation and expect that he would walk the straight and narrow all by himself. For the record I do not think Davis is a fool.

I still say give it a few years something else worse than this will turn up and the whole house of cards will come down. UNC has allowed this behavior to go unchecked and now it will fester and declare itself at a later time.

This quote came from last year, but Steve Spurrier was not surprised when troubles arose and John Blake was connected. Spurrier on UNC's Blake (http://collegefootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2010/08/10/spurrier-on-uncs-blake-its-hard-to-hide-whatever-your-reputation-is/)


Spurrier stepped into the way-back machine, channeled the Ol’ Ball Coach, and took a subtle hatchet to Blake’s reputation around the coaching community as only he can. Or used to be able to.

“When you’ve been in coaching as long as I have, we know the reputation of almost all the coaches that have been around a long time,” Spurrier said Tuesday. “We all have a reputation, especially guys who’ve coached 20 years or so. It’s hard to hide whatever your reputation is.”



Contrast the way that problems with agents were handled at South Carolina vs North Carolina.
Spurrier had one player involved, Weslye Saunders, and he kicked him off the team within a week of the news coming out.
UNC had what, 16 players, involved, and the wheels of justice are turning slowly.

sagegrouse
06-08-2011, 04:30 PM
I agree. And again, the "I didn't know" excuse is just a way to rationalize the behavior of the head coach and athletic leadership.

Simply put they (UNC fandom) think Butch Davis gives them the best chance to be a contender on the national football scene and therefore they are willing to believe or at least accept that he did not know.
The problem is that the "I didn't know" excuse is either a lie or it is an admission of incompetence. Either way, if Davis worked for me he would be fired. He is either lying or he is a fool because only a fool would hire a person with Blake's reputation and expect that he would walk the straight and narrow all by himself. For the record I do not think Davis is a fool.

I still say give it a few years something else worse than this will turn up and the whole house of cards will come down. UNC has allowed this behavior to go unchecked and now it will fester and declare itself at a later time.

I have a different take on the UNC Administration handling of the football mess and the NCAA investigation. UNC may believe it is in real trouble and is saving its own actions until it is time to bargain with the NCAA. In other words, UNC doesn't want to negotiate against itself through a "preemptive surrender" (also known as "The Mouse that Roared" approach). It wants to see what charges are proven and then offer appropriate actions. It may be that Butch Davis is a "dead man walking."

sagegrouse

OldPhiKap
06-08-2011, 05:06 PM
(also known as "The Mouse that Roared" approach.

Someone's gonna drop the Q-Bomb on them?

oldnavy
06-09-2011, 08:08 AM
I have a different take on the UNC Administration handling of the football mess and the NCAA investigation. UNC may believe it is in real trouble and is saving its own actions until it is time to bargain with the NCAA. In other words, UNC doesn't want to negotiate against itself through a "preemptive surrender" (also known as "The Mouse that Roared" approach). It wants to see what charges are proven and then offer appropriate actions. It may be that Butch Davis is a "dead man walking."

sagegrouse

That is a possibility, but that also would imply that they will keep Davis if they can get away with it. I think they have lost the opportunity to take the high road on this one.

Also, if you are willing to give up Butch, I am not sure that waiting will help. Isn't the NCAA all about self discipline? I mean if you wait until you have to give him up is it really self discipline? Granted I do not know much about NCAA investigations since Duke has had little to no involvement with the NCAA investigations.

moonpie23
06-09-2011, 09:32 AM
Isn't the NCAA all about self discipline?

no.....the ncaa is about chaotic disorder........look at the cam newton situation...if auburn had been on the bottom of the conference with 8 losses, cam would have been gone...

OldPhiKap
06-09-2011, 10:59 AM
I think that the NCAA's light handling of Auburn had more to do with the fact that, if they banned Auburn last year, the national championship game may have been between two non-BCS conference teams.

The NCAA is about Money. They will hammer a big school (The OSU, USC) when they can afford to do it. But it is a cost-benefit analysis, weighed in dollars.

Reilly
06-09-2011, 11:22 AM
... But it is a cost-benefit analysis, weighed in dollars.

My guess is that the UNC administration's handling is exactly the same.

What's the corporate form of the UNC booster organization? Any way its records are 'public' and subject to open records laws? I'm guessing not.

If big money donors stepped up and said "enough's enough, we want Butch gone" then he'd be gone given all that has transpired, right?

If big money is quiet/ambivalent about Butch, but the administrators had backbone and cared about doing things the right way, then Butch would be gone, right?

Looks to me the money folks want Butch around, and the administrators have no backbone or interest in being squeaky clean.

cspan37421
06-09-2011, 03:15 PM
The NCAA is about Money. They will hammer a big school (The OSU, USC) when they can afford to do it. But it is a cost-benefit analysis, weighed in dollars.

I agree with you, and I'll conjecture that your observation is why the NCAA has such little respect. To the degree they have any principles on which they stand, they sell them out regularly when big $ is involved. So they're considered to have just as much hypocrisy as the other principals involved in these scandals.

Wake me up when they voluntarily take one on the chin financially for one of their claimed principles about student-athletes.

OldPhiKap
06-09-2011, 03:31 PM
Wake me up when they voluntarily take one on the chin financially for one of their claimed principles about student-athletes.

You better change your name to "RipVanWinkle37421"

CameronBornAndBred
06-10-2011, 09:05 AM
So did anyone over on the hill have trouble sleeping last night?

ArkieDukie
06-10-2011, 09:26 AM
Baddour and Davis threw the individual players under the bus while claiming personal innocence in the hope of keeping the system that allowed these problems to occur, but also helped to bring in NFL talent, in place.

Is throwing players under the bus the new Carolina Way? That was Roy's MO during the disastrous 2009-2010 way. Of course, this is a problem in society on the whole IMO: it's always someone else's fault. JMO.

I, too, have lost a lot of respect for UNC in this whole debacle. I used to think that they valued integrity in their athletic program. Now, I'm not so sure.

I've definitely lost respect for the NCAA and their blatant double standards regarding punishment (or lack thereof) for rules violations. I'm still trying to figure out how Cam Newton was allowed to play last season and how the infamous Ohio State players (Terrelle Pryor et al.) were allowed to play in the Sugar Bowl. $$$$ talks. One wonders what the punishment would've been if any of these players had been at a less high profile institution.

alteran
06-11-2011, 05:02 PM
Thx. Sorry to hear that. Wasn't aware. Of course doesn't change the evaluation of his anti-Duke theatrics on SC over the years. But I do wish him well in this fight. Nobody ever deserves that kind of illness.

Ditto. Good luck with his fight against cancer, but I don't think calling him out for his BS about Duke is out of line.

roywhite
06-21-2011, 05:22 PM
UNC has received a Notice of Allegations from the NCAA.

announced via twitter on UNC website (http://twitter.com/#!/TarHeelFootball/status/83264456024530944)

Should be interesting.

Newton_14
06-21-2011, 07:14 PM
UNC has received a Notice of Allegations from the NCAA.

announced via twitter on UNC website (http://twitter.com/#!/TarHeelFootball/status/83264456024530944)

Should be interesting.

UNC is supposed to release the letter of allegations to the media at some point after 7pm this evening. (Per the Adam Gold show today). I just checked WRAL and the letter has not been released as yet. Expect it sometime between now and the 11 pm news.

JasonEvans
06-21-2011, 07:31 PM
UNC is supposed to release the letter of allegations to the media at some point after 7pm this evening. (Per the Adam Gold show today). I just checked WRAL and the letter has not been released as yet. Expect it sometime between now and the 11 pm news.

I fully expect to be underwhelmed with the NCAA's investigative powers.

-Jason "the assoc. head coach was funneling players to an agent -- they'll probably get off with a strongly worded warning" Evans

Newton_14
06-21-2011, 07:41 PM
I fully expect to be underwhelmed with the NCAA's investigative powers.

-Jason "the assoc. head coach was funneling players to an agent -- they'll probably get off with a strongly worded warning" Evans

I agree with you here. This will barely qualify as a slap on the wrist. I hope to be shocked, but not counting on it.

Regarding the recent release of the parking tickets issue, something smells there. It is not the tickets themselves. They are meaningless on their own. The fact that UNC went thru hell and high water to prevent that information from being made public, leads me to believe there is something there. Maybe it is the car dealer, or benefits in the way of cars, but something is there. But will that be a part of the allegations? If UNC fought so hard, and nothing related to the tickets/car dealer/cars is in the allegations, then something is amiss there. It would make no sense...

Newton_14
06-21-2011, 08:12 PM
WRAL just released the allegations. As expected, nothing we have not seen already. Here is the link:
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/9760333/

Key items:
The letter outlines six violations of NCAA bylaws: Here are 3 of the allegations:
Allegations against alumna Jennifer Wiley:

- unethical conduct for refusing to provide information to the NCAA enforcement staff and to the institution
- provided extra benefits to student-athletes in the form of travel and parking expenses, and tutoring

• Allegations of academic fraud against student-athletes and the tutor

Failure by the institution to adequately monitor the conduct of Chris Hawkins, an individual triggering NCAA agent legislation; the social media activity of the football team for a period in 2010; and possible extra benefits to a student-athlete triggered by agent legislation.

Acymetric
06-21-2011, 08:52 PM
I for one am not disappointed with the allegations. Some may have been hoping for LOIC but it was unlikely unless someone close to the situation both testified to Butch's direct knowledge of the allegations and had some kind of hard evidence to back it up.

You do see failure to monitor and failure to cooperate in the report though. That isn't small potatoes.

SCMatt33
06-21-2011, 09:27 PM
I for one am not disappointed with the allegations. Some may have been hoping for LOIC but it was unlikely unless someone close to the situation both testified to Butch's direct knowledge of the allegations and had some kind of hard evidence to back it up.

You do see failure to monitor and failure to cooperate in the report though. That isn't small potatoes.

From reading the notice of allegations, I would describe my guess (I have no reason other than my research into the NCAA rulebook and a cursory glance to some past infractions on the LSDBi to know anything) as to the likely outcome as "everything but." It looks like the NCAA is going to give them the harshest possible penalty short of a postseason ban. From the info requested, and some of the allegations, I'm guessing that there will be scholarship reductions, a long probation period, vacated wins, and financial penalties. Rules 32.2.2.3 and 32.2.2.4 were referenced in the allegations. Those rules outline how wins can be vacated and financial penalties assessed for ineligible participation. As for the scholarships, the NCAA requested a lot of information from the university about its scholarship habit in regards to football so I would assume that they are gearing up to dock them of some of them.

Acymetric
06-21-2011, 09:50 PM
From reading the notice of allegations, I would describe my guess (I have no reason other than my research into the NCAA rulebook and a cursory glance to some past infractions on the LSDBi to know anything) as to the likely outcome as "everything but." It looks like the NCAA is going to give them the harshest possible penalty short of a postseason ban. From the info requested, and some of the allegations, I'm guessing that there will be scholarship reductions, a long probation period, vacated wins, and financial penalties. Rules 32.2.2.3 and 32.2.2.4 were referenced in the allegations. Those rules outline how wins can be vacated and financial penalties assessed for ineligible participation. As for the scholarships, the NCAA requested a lot of information from the university about its scholarship habit in regards to football so I would assume that they are gearing up to dock them of some of them.

They also requested information about all TV deals associated with unc...including deals negotiated independently as well as deals through the ACC contracts. I would expect a postseason ban to come before a TV ban, so if there is any kind of ban on television appearances I expect there will be a postseason ban as well. 1-3 years postseason ban and scholarship reductions for a couple years beyond would be my best case scenario (with potential for limiting TV appearances).

SCMatt33
06-21-2011, 10:02 PM
They also requested information about all TV deals associated with unc...including deals negotiated independently as well as deals through the ACC contracts. I would expect a postseason ban to come before a TV ban, so if there is any kind of ban on television appearances I expect there will be a postseason ban as well. 1-3 years postseason ban and scholarship reductions for a couple years beyond would be my best case scenario (with potential for limiting TV appearances).

That actually made me more suspicious of the scholarship stuff than thinking that there will be a TV ban. The NCAA hasn't given out a TV ban for the past couple of decades because in today's environment where TV is ubiquitous, a TV ban punishes the opponents as much as the team involved. This makes me think that the stuff at the end where scholarship habits and TV obligations are requested are more standard procedure rather than indicative of potential penalties.

The parts where the vacation rules are mentioned, though, are separate from this, so I am still confident that UNC will be vacating some wins and bowl appearances. The rest will likely be a crapshoot, though I stand by my original guess based on rudimentary research into past infractions cases.

It seems that the NCAA is more inclined to give out post season bans (at least in the last decade or so), when schools blatantly slap them in the face, by low balling self imposed penalties, running comically weak internal investigations, and lying to the NCAA during interviews. So far as I know, UNC hasn't done these things. They cooperated when the NCAA came knocking, ran a thorough investigation with the NCAA, and hasn't been caught in any lies during their interviews. Something could come out between now and October 28th that would change that, but it isn't the case yet.

Acymetric
06-21-2011, 10:12 PM
That actually made me more suspicious of the scholarship stuff than thinking that there will be a TV ban. The NCAA hasn't given out a TV ban for the past couple of decades because in today's environment where TV is ubiquitous, a TV ban punishes the opponents as much as the team involved. This makes me think that the stuff at the end where scholarship habits and TV obligations are requested are more standard procedure rather than indicative of potential penalties.

The parts where the vacation rules are mentioned, though, are separate from this, so I am still confident that UNC will be vacating some wins and bowl appearances. The rest will likely be a crapshoot, though I stand by my original guess based on rudimentary research into past infractions cases.

It seems that the NCAA is more inclined to give out post season bans (at least in the last decade or so), when schools blatantly slap them in the face, by low balling self imposed penalties, running comically weak internal investigations, and lying to the NCAA during interviews. So far as I know, UNC hasn't done these things. They cooperated when the NCAA came knocking, ran a thorough investigation with the NCAA, and hasn't been caught in any lies during their interviews. Something could come out between now and October 28th that would change that, but it isn't the case yet.

Failure to cooperate was specifically mentioned in the LOA, actually. According to Joe Ovies (twitter) the internet seems to be buzzing with the idea that the allegations listed are worse than what USC received in theirs. Whether that is really the case the fact that this is the perception is bad news [for carolina].

Oh. And this tidbit from Star News (http://twitter.com/#!/starnewsacc) in Wilmington


UNC asked for a summary disposition (a mutual agreement on punishment without a hearing), but was denied ...

It isn't that unc low-balled on self-imposed penalties and the NCAA refused...the NCAA has such little faith in unc to hold itself accountable that it won't even have the conversation before the official hearing.

People still thinking slap on the wrist?

blueduke59
06-21-2011, 10:16 PM
It seems that the NCAA is more inclined to give out post season bans (at least in the last decade or so), when schools blatantly slap them in the face, by low balling self imposed penalties, running comically weak internal investigations, and lying to the NCAA during interviews. So far as I know, UNC hasn't done these things

UNC had to be sued for what? Cooperating? Did Wiley consent to be interviewed? Players lied to the NCAA. If that's not yanking the NCAA's chain then nothing is

roywhite
06-21-2011, 10:47 PM
I see the allegations letter from the NCAA totals 42 pages, clearly a lot to digest.

I wonder if tutor/nanny Jennifer Wiley will now be asked to prepare a Cliff Notes Summary for the football staff to read?

Newton_14
06-21-2011, 10:49 PM
Failure to cooperate was specifically mentioned in the LOA, actually. According to Joe Ovies (twitter) the internet seems to be buzzing with the idea that the allegations listed are worse than what USC received in theirs. Whether that is really the case the fact that this is the perception is bad news [for carolina].

Oh. And this tidbit from Star News (http://twitter.com/#!/starnewsacc) in Wilmington



It isn't that unc low-balled on self-imposed penalties and the NCAA refused...the NCAA has such little faith in unc to hold itself accountable that it won't even have the conversation before the official hearing.

People still thinking slap on the wrist?

Ok Acy, maybe I was wrong and they get hammered. I do know the Failure to Monitor was not expected. Greg Barnes of IC was on local talk radio earlier this month and specifically said that it appeared UNC would not get hit with FTM and felt the actions they took in not letting the players compete last year would appease the NCAA. He stated UNC was confident the penalties would be light and would not include a post season ban.

I felt UNC should have penalized themselves last year by not accepting a Bowl Bid. I felt at the time, that was a big mistake on their part, but then everything recently coming out seemed to suggest holding out players was the only "self-imposed" penalty needed.

I am still not 100% convinced they will get hit hard (worse than USC, post-season ban), but you definitely have me reconsidering my slap on the wrist expectation.

Acymetric
06-21-2011, 10:53 PM
Ok Acy, maybe I was wrong and they get hammered. I do know the Failure to Monitor was not expected. Greg Barnes of IC was on local talk radio earlier this month and specifically said that it appeared UNC would not get hit with FTM and felt the actions they took in not letting the players compete last year would appease the NCAA. He stated UNC was confident the penalties would be light and would not include a post season ban.

I felt UNC should have penalized themselves last year by not accepting a Bowl Bid. I felt at the time, that was a big mistake on their part, but then everything recently coming out seemed to suggest holding out players was the only "self-imposed" penalty needed.

I am still not 100% convinced they will get hit hard (worse than USC, post-season ban), but you definitely have me reconsidering my slap on the wrist expectation.

If you follow TDD at all (I hang out there for the football board, never visit the basketball section), they consider Greg Barnes a total shill for unc that is either willfully ignorant and pandering to the fanbase or a mouthpiece for what the school wants to get out to the public.

CameronBornAndBred
06-21-2011, 10:55 PM
People still thinking slap on the wrist?
All in all I find the letter to be incredibly weak, due to one simple omission. Butch Davis is not held accountable for anything. His players, his coaches, his tutor..but he is not implicated. If he actually did not know anything, he should be fired just for being that out of touch with his program!:rolleyes:

billy
06-21-2011, 10:58 PM
My favorite accusation:

1931

Thinking of having a bumper sticker made...

Acymetric
06-21-2011, 11:00 PM
All in all I find the letter to be incredibly weak, due to one simple omission. Butch Davis is not held accountable for anything. His players, his coaches, his tutor..but he is not implicated. If he actually did not know anything, he should be fired just for being that out of touch with his program!:rolleyes:

True, but firing Butch for being an idiot isn't the NCAA's responsibility, I suppose. If they really never were able to find something to tie directly to him I'm shocked, but I mean the guy learned from some of the best at Miami ;)

How they justify retaining a guy that let all this happen even if he wasn't behind it (or can't be linked to it with hard evidence at any rate) will be fun to watch.

Acymetric
06-21-2011, 11:01 PM
My favorite accusation:

1931

Thinking of having a bumper sticker made...

Bumper sticker? Hell, I was thinking of getting a tatoo. Would the forehead be too tacky? Maybe a giant one across the back so it would be nice and visible when I'm at the pool...

moonpie23
06-21-2011, 11:02 PM
My favorite accusation:

1931

Thinking of having a bumper sticker made...

i will buy that

SCMatt33
06-21-2011, 11:04 PM
Failure to cooperate was specifically mentioned in the LOA, actually. According to Joe Ovies (twitter) the internet seems to be buzzing with the idea that the allegations listed are worse than what USC received in theirs. Whether that is really the case the fact that this is the perception is bad news [for carolina].

Oh. And this tidbit from Star News (http://twitter.com/#!/starnewsacc) in Wilmington



It isn't that unc low-balled on self-imposed penalties and the NCAA refused...the NCAA has such little faith in unc to hold itself accountable that it won't even have the conversation before the official hearing.

People still thinking slap on the wrist?

I didn't see where the university was accused of not cooperating. I saw where Wiley was accused of it, but it's easy to miss things out of 42 pages. Do you know what page it is on?

As for the Star News bit, I don't consider a media outlet to be official, but assuming it is true, I would imagine that it's standard to have the hearing when the breadth of the accusations is so large. I would imagine that the way around it only exists for simple cases with few penalties. I wouldn't assume that it means that they don't trust UNC as a whole.

Newton_14
06-21-2011, 11:08 PM
If you follow TDD at all (I hang out there for the football board, never visit the basketball section), they consider Greg Barnes a total shill for unc that is either willfully ignorant and pandering to the fanbase or a mouthpiece for what the school wants to get out to the public.

I do not follow TDD but I am well aware of Greg Barnes and the homerism. One of the things I detest about WRAL Sports, and local talk radio here is they treat him like a regular "unbiased" media member. He is on talk radio all the time here as is one of the other UNC "media" guys, cough, cough. I believe his name is Adam Lucas? (I should know it for sure, but it is late and my brain is on fumes:D)

Anyway, during basketball season, the Mike & Mark morning show on 620 has one of them on the day after each UNC game. For State however, they speak to Chris Corchiani. For us, it is Coach Collins.

In my opinion, given who they select for UNC, they should have Mark Watson on for Duke, and one of the StateFanNation or Pack Pride guys for NC State. It just makes no sense.

Acymetric
06-21-2011, 11:16 PM
I didn't see where the university was accused of not cooperating. I saw where Wiley was accused of it, but it's easy to miss things out of 42 pages. Do you know what page it is on?

As for the Star News bit, I don't consider a media outlet to be official, but assuming it is true, I would imagine that it's standard to have the hearing when the breadth of the accusations is so large. I would imagine that the way around it only exists for simple cases with few penalties. I wouldn't assume that it means that they don't trust UNC as a whole.

You know, I think you may be right. I have no desire to read 42 pages about this so I've been getting information second hand, and by paraphrasing someone else's paraphrase of the portion on Wiley I ended up saying something that wasn't actually true (well, it may be true but it isn't in the letter ;)). Thanks for calling me on that. (seriously).

roywhite
06-21-2011, 11:20 PM
Butch Davis likely to keep his Carolina job despite allegations (http://www.sacbee.com/2011/06/21/3718184/butch-davis-likely-to-keep-his.html)

It's a piece by Caulton Tudor who is not the brightest bulb, but pretty well plugged into the Carolina scene.

Barf alert for Butch's comment:



"I feel terrible that these allegations occurred under my watch," the coach said in a statement released by the school. "I especially regret that the university has had to endure this scrutiny because of the football program. The responsibility for correcting any problems that put us in this position is mine, and I take that responsibility very seriously.

Acymetric
06-21-2011, 11:33 PM
Butch Davis likely to keep his Carolina job despite allegations (http://www.sacbee.com/2011/06/21/3718184/butch-davis-likely-to-keep-his.html)

It's a piece by Caulton Tudor who is not the brightest bulb, but pretty well plugged into the Carolina scene.

Barf alert for Butch's comment:

Man I haven't read the N&O since I left for college 5 years ago, I'd practically forgotten about Caulton. One of my least favorite sportswriters ever given a combination of his biases and lack of apparrent critical thinking. Not that I think he's wrong, I actually hope he's right. Butch will be under the microscope here on out, and he's alienated a lot of the media. Let him stay. How many dark horses for the championship will he put together when he doesn't have an associate head coach funneling benefits to players.

Of course, if he loses to State one more time that might be enough to fire him with cause :D

CameronBornAndBred
06-21-2011, 11:33 PM
Butch Davis likely to keep his Carolina job despite allegations (http://www.sacbee.com/2011/06/21/3718184/butch-davis-likely-to-keep-his.html)

It's a piece by Caulton Tudor who is not the brightest bulb, but pretty well plugged into the Carolina scene.

Barf alert for Butch's comment:

"I feel terrible that these allegations occurred under my watch," the coach said in a statement released by the school. "I especially regret that the university has had to endure this scrutiny because of the football program. The responsibility for correcting any problems that put us in this position is mine, and I take that responsibility very seriously.


My guess is that is a totally genuine comment. He probably does feel terrible that the allegations occurred under his watch; I'm not so sure he cares much about the trangressions themselves.

Philawolf
06-22-2011, 01:17 AM
Front Page Of Sports Illustrated could change some fates...

http://content.screencast.com/users/prpetten/folders/Jing/media/d045a21a-ad89-4018-b40f-14f9ed5b38eb/00000003.png

g-money
06-22-2011, 02:51 AM
Front Page Of Sports Illustrated could change some fates...

http://content.screencast.com/users/prpetten/folders/Jing/media/d045a21a-ad89-4018-b40f-14f9ed5b38eb/00000003.png

Yeah, to say that the Mandel article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/06/21/ncaa.unc/index.html?eref=sircrc) was scathing would be putting it nicely. Regardless of the personal culpability of the head coach, it seems that the issues at OSU pale in comparison to what happened at UNC.

How long until the UNC administration decides that the degree of shame and humiliation in this case exceeds the level of loyalty owed to Butch Davis? Labor Day anyone?

Acymetric
06-22-2011, 03:13 AM
I think no matter how wrong or right they are in keeping Butch, the unc leadership are so full of themselves that they won't admit that they've made mistakes; firing Butch would be an admission of that. Of course, that's assuming that they aren't keeping him to try and hide any actual culpability they had in the situation. If Butch gets fired its because a booster or multiple boosters demand it, and not just a couple guys who donate like 10k a year. We're talking real money here.

davekay1971
06-22-2011, 07:21 AM
One little question: where did a student tutor/schoolteacher who just happened to be employed by Coach Davis as his son's tutor, who just happened to write papers for football team players, get an extra $3500 to hand out in impermissible benefits? One hopes the NCAA has the common sense to follow the money trail on that one.

Klemnop
06-22-2011, 07:23 AM
I think that the NCAA's light handling of Auburn had more to do with the fact that, if they banned Auburn last year, the national championship game may have been between two non-BCS conference teams...

Actually, the NCAA benefits very little from the proceeds of the Football BCS Championship Game as I'm sure has been chronicled in some other thread on this forum at length.

I'd be happy to see Auburn and UNC both go down in a blaze of infamy. Don't get me wrong. But you're making an inference that, while convenient to your argument, is completely off base.

The real question for any true historians of the ACC: Can Clemson (or anyone else in the conference with an axe to grind against The Baby Blue) bring enough pressure within the ACC office to get the conference to pile on additional penalties beyond whatever the NCAA might hand down. It's no secret that John Swofford (then a strictly UNC figure) and UNC lobbied vociferously for Clemson's NCAA probation in the early 80s to be augmented by additional conference extensions.

Everyone's looking for the smoking gun. I found it about four years ago - when a scholarship offer to Dwight Jones was rescinded by Clemson's AARC (Academic Something Review Cmte)...and Jones immediately accepted an offer from UNC. Surprisingly (and good for Jones!) that Jones has not been at the center of the controversy. But his situation was symptomatic of a fundamental shift in the philosophies of schools that may actually have vastly different practices than what their reputations would lead you to believe.

Note: Dabo Swinney (though very much an infant for these calcualtions' purpose) has the highest APR of any active head coach at an FBS school.

Klem

CameronBornAndBred
06-22-2011, 07:33 AM
Yeah, to say that the Mandel article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/06/21/ncaa.unc/index.html?eref=sircrc) was scathing would be putting it nicely. Regardless of the personal culpability of the head coach, it seems that the issues at OSU pale in comparison to what happened at UNC.

How long until the UNC administration decides that the degree of shame and humiliation in this case exceeds the level of loyalty owed to Butch Davis? Labor Day anyone?
While the article itself was scathing of the program, it seems to draw the same conclusion that many of us foresee.


For all the tawdry scandals that have tarnished college football over the past 12 months -- from USC to Tennessee, from Cam Newton to Jim Tressel -- one can easily argue that the nine major violations levied against Butch Davis' program Tuesday contain more filth and more blatant disregard for the rule book than any of them.
And yet, one gets the sense that after nearly a year of buildup, North Carolina's case may wind up causing less indignation than any of them.

oldnavy
06-22-2011, 08:19 AM
The key finding is that someone brought the activities to the attention of someone in the program and no action was taken.

Running this to ground may provide some interest insight into the program that Butch runs over on the hill.

Having held several positions of authority where I had up to 300 people under my care at one time I can tell you that as a leader you set the tone. You let your people know upfront and repeatedly what is and is not acceptable. You let them know what the rules are and how you want the organization to operate. And then you follow up by walking around and asking questions and meeting with your leadership routinely. In my case we had to answer to Navy regulations, and JCAHO (outside civilian org.) rules. You make it clear to your leadership that the biggest mistake that they can make is not taking action on a process that is in violation of either of these standards.

As the head, you cannot be at all places at all times, but you make sure that your leadership knows what is expected and you also make sure that your entire staff knows what is expected.


On the few occasions where we found violations or non-compliance (both with personnel and procedural), we did not cover them up, but we reported them and set into place corrective measures and monitored those measures until we were certain that the problems were fixed.

I'm sorry for the long winded post, but this whole "Butch didn't know" crap really gets me from a personal and professional standpoint. As the leader he HAS to know or at least has to have in place checks and balances so that when things do happen they are found out and acted on, not buried.

I agree that Butch cannot be everywhere at one time, but he has how many assistant coaches?? In other words he has an organization or as we called it a chain of command.

When the second in your COC that you personally hire comes with a reputation of being a cheater, well that sets the tone right away in my opinion.

Butch has to go. He is in a no win situation. If he did know then it is obvious that he has to go. IF (and I do not believe this) he did not know, then he didn't want to know, and therefore gave the implied consent for violations to take place and he must go.

We will see how UNC plays this now that more info has come out. I suspect at some point the heat will be too much and Butch will resign. But if UNC wants to come out of this with anything that resembles respectability, they will need to fire Butch.

devildeac
06-22-2011, 08:58 AM
My favorite accusation:

1931

Thinking of having a bumper sticker made...

That would look great right next to:

University of
Non-
Compliance

or

University of
Numerous
Cheaters (or Criminals)

;)

davekay1971
06-22-2011, 09:01 AM
The "Butch didn't know" argument is sorry and empty for all the reasons Oldnavy detailed, and, in addition, there are two very good reasons to believe that the argument, itself, is simply wrong. These are both pieces of circumstantial evidence, and this is why I'm not a lawyer, but to me these two pieces of circumstantial evidence prevent the "Butch didn't know" argument from passing the whiff test.

1) He hired John Blake as his assistant head coach and head recruiter despite Mr. Blake's well known reputation as being a man who skirts the rules. Butch knew he had to upgrade the talent. He hired Blake to do so. He undoubtedly knew Blake's reputation and methods. The lack of direct email/text contact between Blake and Butch smacks very loudly of Blake operating under the specific instructions from Butch: "Do what you need to do...just don't ever email me or text me about it."

2) The central location of the nanny/tutor in all this. Is it really a coincidence that the tutor, hired by Davis to be tutor/nanny for his son, was a prolific paper writer for football players, paid for airline tickets for a football player, and paid upwards of $1500 in parking tickets for a football player, and spent a total of $3500 in benefits for football players?

The "Butch didn't know" argument only paints him to be a blithering idiot with no idea what's going on in his own program. For an institution with any self-respect or integrity, that alone would be enough to get him fired when this litany of allegations comes to conclusion. But it's simply unbelievable that Butch didn't know. It's much more likely that he knew, that he was very much in the know and very much proactive in creating this morass of violations and misconduct.

CameronBornAndBred
06-22-2011, 10:23 AM
The "Butch didn't know" argument is sorry and empty for all the reasons Oldnavy detailed, and, in addition, there are two very good reasons to believe that the argument, itself, is simply wrong. These are both pieces of circumstantial evidence, and this is why I'm not a lawyer, but to me these two pieces of circumstantial evidence prevent the "Butch didn't know" argument from passing the whiff test.

1) He hired John Blake as his assistant head coach and head recruiter despite Mr. Blake's well known reputation as being a man who skirts the rules. Butch knew he had to upgrade the talent. He hired Blake to do so. He undoubtedly knew Blake's reputation and methods. The lack of direct email/text contact between Blake and Butch smacks very loudly of Blake operating under the specific instructions from Butch: "Do what you need to do...just don't ever email me or text me about it."

2) The central location of the nanny/tutor in all this. Is it really a coincidence that the tutor, hired by Davis to be tutor/nanny for his son, was a prolific paper writer for football players, paid for airline tickets for a football player, and paid upwards of $1500 in parking tickets for a football player, and spent a total of $3500 in benefits for football players?

The "Butch didn't know" argument only paints him to be a blithering idiot with no idea what's going on in his own program. For an institution with any self-respect or integrity, that alone would be enough to get him fired when this litany of allegations comes to conclusion. But it's simply unbelievable that Butch didn't know. It's much more likely that he knew, that he was very much in the know and very much proactive in creating this morass of violations and misconduct.
I was working on a client's computer this morning and blamed all his trouble on his unc wallpaper. I showed him the front page of SI, and we were talking about it. I brought up the very issue that I couldn't see how Butch was that out of touch with his program that he wasn't aware that so many people around him were breaking rules. My client's response? "He knew. Back when I played at Carolina..." Then it hit me that this guy was a pretty big dude..lol. Anyways, it was interesting to get a player's perspective. He said that for so many to be involved, Butch had to know to. Of course he was happy that his heels didn't get the LOIC label, but also would not have been surprised if they had. He played from '93 to '97.

Olympic Fan
06-22-2011, 10:28 AM
I think that the NCAA's light handling of Auburn had more to do with the fact that, if they banned Auburn last year, the national championship game may have been between two non-BCS conference teams.

The NCAA is about Money. They will hammer a big school (The OSU, USC) when they can afford to do it. But it is a cost-benefit analysis, weighed in dollars.

I've posted this before, but the fact is the NCAA has not handled Auburn yet -- lightly or heavily.

The reason Auburn was allowed to play in the national championship game was that the NCAA process is SLOW ... not light-handed. There is really no way to make immediate rulings. The process expects the schools to police themselves and the NCAA to get involved down the road.

In UNC's case, it's now a year since the charges first surfaced and we're just getting around to th NOA. UNC has 90 days to reply. They'll go before the Infractions Committee probably in late October. The final ruling will probably come a couple of months later -- and UNC will then have an opportunity to appeal that.

All the punishments so far -- the 14 players who missed games -- were self-imposed.

In Auburn's case, there was an internal debate as to whether to suspend Newton. Reportedly, the president wanted to sit him but was overruled by the boosters who really run the university (it used to be a Montgomery banker named Bobby Louder ... but the FBI is after him these days and I'm not sure he's still the dictator down there. If not, I'm sure there is anoher fat-cat calling the shots).

The NCAA has barely started their investigation. Maybe next fall ... maybe later, we'll get a NOA. Several months after that, we'll find out if the NCAA treated Auburn lightly. Most of the people I know believe it's only a matter of time before they are stripped of their national title -- among other penalties.

We'll see.

JasonEvans
06-22-2011, 11:17 AM
All in all I find the letter to be incredibly weak, due to one simple omission. Butch Davis is not held accountable for anything. His players, his coaches, his tutor..but he is not implicated. If he actually did not know anything, he should be fired just for being that out of touch with his program!:rolleyes:

Being ignorant is not against NCAA rules. Butch did not violate any NCAA rules. Your complaints about his ignorance of everything happening under his watch is a complaint better directed at the UNC Administration. If they are satisfied with a coach who has no idea about the blatant rules violations going on under his nose, that speaks volumes about where their values fall in the spectrum of honesty and sportsmanship.

-Jason "keeping the head coach who oversaw all this is ridiculous" Evans

Duvall
06-22-2011, 11:26 AM
Being ignorant is not against NCAA rules. Butch did not violate any NCAA rules.

To be precise, Davis has not been shown to have violated any NCAA rules - the violations only came from people reporting directly to and personally employed by him. And isn't failure to monitor (an allegation that appeared three times) a violation of NCAA rules?


Your complaints about his ignorance of everything happening under his watch is a complaint better directed at the UNC Administration. If they are satisfied with a coach who has no idea about the blatant rules violations going on under his nose, that speaks volumes about where their values fall in the spectrum of honesty and sportsmanship.

-Jason "keeping the head coach who oversaw all this is ridiculous" Evans

This is certainly true.

CameronBornAndBred
06-22-2011, 11:39 AM
Being ignorant is not against NCAA rules. Butch did not violate any NCAA rules. Your complaints about his ignorance of everything happening under his watch is a complaint better directed at the UNC Administration. If they are satisfied with a coach who has no idea about the blatant rules violations going on under his nose, that speaks volumes about where their values fall in the spectrum of honesty and sportsmanship.

-Jason "keeping the head coach who oversaw all this is ridiculous" Evans
I don't disagree...in fact unc should be holding him accountable. I'ts just hard to believe they can't find much. But..if they (the NCAA) can't..then they of course can't do anything about him. But unc sure can. It's sad they are turning a blind eye.

Atlanta Duke
06-22-2011, 12:09 PM
Yeah, to say that the Mandel article (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/stewart_mandel/06/21/ncaa.unc/index.html?eref=sircrc) was scathing would be putting it nicely.

Yep - this line from Mandel sums up his perspective


If you're an NCAA rules junkie, reading the Notice of Allegations handed down on North Carolina's football program Tuesday must be like unwrapping the latest iPhone.

It's got everything.;)

camion
06-22-2011, 02:40 PM
After reading UNC NOA and the various comments about it I now think that the NCAA is giving UNC a chance to sacrifice Butch Davis as a way to demonstrate "Institutional Control." If they throw him under the bus (it's the Carolina way) I think the get hammered medium. If they don't ditch Davis I think they get hammered hard.

The end is still months away. We'll eventually see if I am too naively trusting in the NCAA.

sagegrouse
06-22-2011, 03:10 PM
After reading UNC NOA and the various comments about it I now think that the NCAA is giving UNC a chance to sacrifice Butch Davis as a way to demonstrate "Institutional Control." If they throw him under the bus (it's the Carolina way) I think the get hammered medium. If they don't ditch Davis I think they get hammered hard.

The end is still months away. We'll eventually see if I am too naively trusting in the NCAA.

"Miss [Wiley] regrets, she’s unable to lunch today, madam,
Miss [Wiley] regrets, she’s unable to lunch today.

"And from under her velvet gown,
She drew a gun and shot her love down, madam,
Miss [Wiley] regrets, she’s unable to lunch today." -- Cole Porter


I am holding onto two thoughts -- one old, one new.

I posted some time ago that I thought Butch was surviving because UNC did not want to do a "preemptive surrender" to the NCAA but wished to make Davis's fate part of the negotiations.

Now, seeing that Jennifer Wiley paid for a player's trip and for nearly $2,000 of parking tickets, I feel like I am back in the Watergate era. "Follow the money," said Deep Throat. Miss Wiley did not pay that money out of the goodness or her heart, bless her soul. That money came from someone else. Given that she was more or less an employee of the athletic department and of Butch Davis's household, the threat to UNC verges on the thermonuclear. The hard cash probably came from the coaching staff not from the crowd of well-heeled UNC alumni.

Wowzer!!! Miss Wiley would not speak to the NCAA (good thinking there, lady). But if the State of NC decides it has an interest in this matter because of potential criminal violation of the law regarding sports agents, then she may well have to spill the beans.

Hmmm.... could get more and more interesting.

sagegrouse

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-22-2011, 03:21 PM
"Miss [Wiley] regrets, she’s unable to lunch today, madam,
Miss [Wiley] regrets, she’s unable to lunch today.

"And from under her velvet gown,
She drew a gun and shot her love down, madam,
Miss [Wiley] regrets, she’s unable to lunch today." -- Cole Porter


I am holding onto two thoughts -- one old, one new.

I posted some time ago that I thought Butch was surviving because UNC did not want to do a "preemptive surrender" to the NCAA but wished to make Davis's fate part of the negotiations.

Now, seeing that Jennifer Wiley paid for a player's trip and for nearly $2,000 of parking tickets, I feel like I am back in the Watergate era. "Follow the money," said Deep Throat. Miss Wiley did not pay that money out of the goodness or her heart, bless her soul. That money came from someone else. Given that she was more or less an employee of the athletic department and of Butch Davis's household, the threat to UNC verges on the thermonuclear. The hard cash probably came from the coaching staff not from the crowd of well-heeled UNC alumni.

Wowzer!!! Miss Wiley would not speak to the NCAA (good thinking there, lady). But if the State of NC decides it has an interest in this matter because of potential criminal violation of the law regarding sports agents, then she may well have to spill the beans.

Hmmm.... could get more and more interesting.

sagegrouse
Following the money is the path to truth.

oldnavy
06-22-2011, 05:11 PM
To be precise, Davis has not been shown to have violated any NCAA rules - the violations only came from people reporting directly to and personally employed by him. And isn't failure to monitor (an allegation that appeared three times) a violation of NCAA rules?



This is certainly true.

And Al Capone just forgot to pay his taxes! ;)

Indoor66
06-22-2011, 06:19 PM
Being ignorant is not against NCAA rules. Butch did not violate any NCAA rules. Your complaints about his ignorance of everything happening under his watch is a complaint better directed at the UNC Administration. If they are satisfied with a coach who has no idea about the blatant rules violations going on under his nose, that speaks volumes about where their values fall in the spectrum of honesty and sportsmanship.

-Jason "keeping the head coach who oversaw all this is ridiculous" Evans

But doesn't this lead us into an issue of "lack of institutional control?" You can't accept ignorance of all of these events and issues and then dismiss a lack of control finding.

devildeac
06-22-2011, 07:00 PM
If it has been posted previously, please forgive me. If not, hope y'all get a few chuckles outta this one:

http://www.tauntr.com/content/university-north-carolina-recruiting-commercial

Verga3
06-22-2011, 08:05 PM
The key finding is that someone brought the activities to the attention of someone in the program and no action was taken.

Running this to ground may provide some interest insight into the program that Butch runs over on the hill.

Having held several positions of authority where I had up to 300 people under my care at one time I can tell you that as a leader you set the tone. You let your people know upfront and repeatedly what is and is not acceptable. You let them know what the rules are and how you want the organization to operate. And then you follow up by walking around and asking questions and meeting with your leadership routinely. In my case we had to answer to Navy regulations, and JCAHO (outside civilian org.) rules. You make it clear to your leadership that the biggest mistake that they can make is not taking action on a process that is in violation of either of these standards.

As the head, you cannot be at all places at all times, but you make sure that your leadership knows what is expected and you also make sure that your entire staff knows what is expected.


On the few occasions where we found violations or non-compliance (both with personnel and procedural), we did not cover them up, but we reported them and set into place corrective measures and monitored those measures until we were certain that the problems were fixed.

I'm sorry for the long winded post, but this whole "Butch didn't know" crap really gets me from a personal and professional standpoint. As the leader he HAS to know or at least has to have in place checks and balances so that when things do happen they are found out and acted on, not buried.

I agree that Butch cannot be everywhere at one time, but he has how many assistant coaches?? In other words he has an organization or as we called it a chain of command.

When the second in your COC that you personally hire comes with a reputation of being a cheater, well that sets the tone right away in my opinion.

Butch has to go. He is in a no win situation. If he did know then it is obvious that he has to go. IF (and I do not believe this) he did not know, then he didn't want to know, and therefore gave the implied consent for violations to take place and he must go.

We will see how UNC plays this now that more info has come out. I suspect at some point the heat will be too much and Butch will resign. But if UNC wants to come out of this with anything that resembles respectability, they will need to fire Butch.

Great post, oldnavy. Gets to the heart of things. Hopefully, Chancellor Thorp will take quick and decisive action NOW to save a great university great pain. UNC is a respected, university and academic institution, it is NOT a football team. Step up to the plate, Chancellor, before you are forced to....delaying personnel decisions will harm you and your institution.

CameronBornAndBred
06-23-2011, 08:54 AM
Excellent questions raised by Caulton Tudor this morning. He breaks down each allegation and raises issues behind them. He sums it up very well, too.


Never mind the NCAA, North Carolina's taxpayers deserve answers to these questions.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/06/23/1294051/no-answers-just-questions-for.html

JasonEvans
06-23-2011, 09:14 AM
I have a key question --

When Carolina is forced to vacate all those wins from the past few years...

DO WE GET THE BELL BACK?!?!?! I WANT THE BELL!!!!

-Jason "http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3051/2862552203_a8e2cb51ba.jpg" Evans

killerleft
06-23-2011, 09:15 AM
Excellent questions raised by Caulton Tudor this morning. He breaks down each allegation and raises issues behind them. He sums it up very well, too.



http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/06/23/1294051/no-answers-just-questions-for.html

Ed Hardin of the Greensboro News-Record has a column that's sure to boil some Tar Heel hides in this morning's N-R, too. I'd link it but the article is hidden behind a free "try-out" of the paper as seen by print subscribers.

What really irks Hardin is how Butch Davis has become college football's version of "The Teflon Don". He has long preached that Davis should have been fired when the issues first arose. The case is very easy to make.

roywhite
06-23-2011, 09:40 AM
Ed Hardin of the Greensboro News-Record has a column that's sure to boil some Tar Heel hides in this morning's N-R, too. I'd link it but the article is hidden behind a free "try-out" of the paper as seen by print subscribers.

What really irks Hardin is how Butch Davis has become college football's version of "The Teflon Don". He has long preached that Davis should have been fired when the issues first arose. The case is very easy to make.

The ESPN 30/30 (great series, by the way) feature on SMU has a comment from Brent Musberger to the effect that "once you've lost the local media support, you're in real trouble".

This commentary from Raleigh and Greensboro seems to point in that direction.

uh_no
06-23-2011, 09:45 AM
The ESPN 30/30 (great series, by the way) feature on SMU has a comment from Brent Musberger to the effect that "once you've lost the local media support, you're in real trouble".

Well, shouldn't duke have gone down the tubes years ago then?

roywhite
06-23-2011, 09:52 AM
Well, shouldn't duke have gone down the tubes years ago then?

No, not the same thing IMO.

Duke has often had less coverage than UNC or even NC State when they're good, but I wouldn't describe the NC media as being adversarial toward Duke. In fact, Coach K and the basketball program have gotten more and more positive coverage over the years from NC media, I'd say.

But a change in tone from Caulton Tudor, Ed Hardin, and perhaps others toward UNC is news IMO. And not good news for the Heels.

uh_no
06-23-2011, 09:59 AM
No, not the same thing IMO.

Duke has often had less coverage than UNC or even NC State when they're good, but I wouldn't describe the NC media as being adversarial toward Duke. In fact, Coach K and the basketball program have gotten more and more positive coverage over the years from NC media, I'd say.

But a change in tone from Caulton Tudor, Ed Hardin, and perhaps others toward UNC is news IMO. And not good news for the Heels.

tongue in cheek

davekay1971
06-23-2011, 10:56 AM
I have a key question --

When Carolina is forced to vacate all those wins from the past few years...

DO WE GET THE BELL BACK?!?!?! I WANT THE BELL!!!!


We should!

Good news for the Tar Heel fans, though: if all their wins from the Butch Davis era are vacated, at least it won't change their record against NC State!

Half full, Carolina fans, the glass is half full!

roywhite
06-23-2011, 11:01 AM
Tar Heels tarnished by visit to dark side (http://www2.journalnow.com/sports/2011/jun/23/wssport01-lenox-rawlings-dark-days-for-unc-ar-1145876/)

Lenox Rawlings weighs in.


He (Butch Davis) should have done everything in his power to make sure they didn't happen the first time. Instead, more than four years after promising a big-time operation, the Davis numbers read something like this: 28-23 overall, 15-17 ACC, 0-4 against N.C. State and nine major violations alleged by the NCAA.

Wait 'til next year? Carolina waited 123 years for a football day this dark.

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-23-2011, 11:32 AM
The ESPN 30/30 (great series, by the way) feature on SMU has a comment from Brent Musberger to the effect that "once you've lost the local media support, you're in real trouble".

This commentary from Raleigh and Greensboro seems to point in that direction.
This is a very important point in the ongoing saga. The way the local media turned from SMU underlined the seriousness of what had gone awry. It would appear that the many among the media in this state are beginning to make that same turn regarding what's in question at UNC.

The process is far from over. The Lenox Rawlings article which you highlighted in this thread provides one of the most thoughtful examples of this change in the media's treatment of this situation which is playing out steadily, day by day. Watch for the momentum to pick up soon.

uh_no
06-23-2011, 11:38 AM
This is a very important point in the ongoing saga. The way the local media turned from SMU underlined the seriousness of what had gone awry. It would appear that the many among the media in this state are beginning to make that same turn regarding what's in question at UNC.

The process is far from over. The Lenox Rawlings article which you highlighted in this thread provides one of the most thoughtful examples of this change in the media's treatment of this situation which is playing out steadily, day by day. Watch for the momentum to pick up soon.

I think there will be a media firestorm when the hearings actually start, much like there was with calhoun at the beginning of the bball season. It will be doubly bad if UNC is hovering around 500.

Here's to hoping we bring the bell home this year!

CameronBornAndBred
06-23-2011, 11:39 AM
No, not the same thing IMO.

Duke has often had less coverage than UNC or even NC State when they're good, but I wouldn't describe the NC media as being adversarial toward Duke. In fact, Coach K and the basketball program have gotten more and more positive coverage over the years from NC media, I'd say.

But a change in tone from Caulton Tudor, Ed Hardin, and perhaps others toward UNC is news IMO. And not good news for the Heels.
Adam Gold weighs in. (He's a Terp grad though, but still a local media guy.)


Davis is now part of the furniture at Kenan Stadium, there for the duration. It leads me to believe that Mr. Baddour and Chancellor Thorp aren’t really calling the shots. Because, as Carolina lifers, they know better than to allow the school’s reputation to take this kind of a hit without the person responsible taking the blame. To me, the strings are being pulled by the wallets of big money boosters who only want to compete at the highest possible level in football as though that’s the most important part of life at the University of North Carolina.
What it brought to Chapel Hill was nine major violations.
Or, one more than the most wins Butch Davis has registered in any of the four seasons with the Tar Heels.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9763666/

devildeac
06-23-2011, 11:52 AM
Tar Heels tarnished by visit to dark side (http://www2.journalnow.com/sports/2011/jun/23/wssport01-lenox-rawlings-dark-days-for-unc-ar-1145876/)

Lenox Rawlings weighs in.


This is a very important point in the ongoing saga. The way the local media turned from SMU underlined the seriousness of what had gone awry. It would appear that the many among the media in this state are beginning to make that same turn regarding what's in question at UNC.

The process is far from over. The Lenox Rawlings article which you highlighted in this thread provides one of the most thoughtful examples of this change in the media's treatment of this situation which is playing out steadily, day by day. Watch for the momentum to pick up soon.

Let's see, what media bases do we have covered now:

1. Raleigh-check
2. Greensboro-check
3. Winston-Salem-check
4. (UN)Charlotte-(whistles past graveyard)

Not many more major writers/newspapers to jump on (off?) the bandwagon remain at this time, unless we want to hear something from the Herald-Sun:rolleyes:.

Should Duke fans be planning bumper stickers that say:

Butch Must Go!

or

Butch Should Stay!

(heh-heh)

dpslaw
06-23-2011, 12:49 PM
Should Duke fans be planning bumper stickers that say:

Butch Must Go!

or

Butch Should Stay!

(heh-heh)

Butch should definitely stay. And they should hire Jim Tressel to help him clean things up!

oldnavy
06-23-2011, 12:59 PM
The ESPN 30/30 (great series, by the way) feature on SMU has a comment from Brent Musberger to the effect that "once you've lost the local media support, you're in real trouble".This commentary from Raleigh and Greensboro seems to point in that direction.

It really shouldn't be about support, it should be about the truth. I do not see the media's role as to support or not support but rather to report. I like that the media asks questions and raises issues, but it should be done to get to the truth not to protect or persecute.

Oh well, back now to the real world.

uh_no
06-23-2011, 01:09 PM
It really shouldn't be about support, it should be about the truth. I do not see the media's role as to support or not support but rather to report. I like that the media asks questions and raises issues, but it should be done to get to the truth not to protect or persecute.

Oh well, back now to the real world.


Yeah. Completely agree in principal, unfortunately thats just the way it is.

CameronBornAndBred
06-23-2011, 01:13 PM
Not many more major writers/newspapers to jump on (off?) the bandwagon remain at this time, unless we want to hear something from the Herald-Sun:rolleyes:.



It really shouldn't be about support, it should be about the truth. I do not see the media's role as to support or not support but rather to report.

If you look at the Herald-Sun's online page..they have not even reported that the heels received the letter.
http://www.heraldsun.com/pages/sports_unc

oldnavy
06-23-2011, 01:29 PM
And regarding the investigative aspect of reporting , if the papers really wanted to dig a little, they could start poking around the relationship the imprisoned car dealer had with the players and why he was so, shall we say benevolent with his cars and plates....

killerleft
06-23-2011, 01:42 PM
It really shouldn't be about support, it should be about the truth. I do not see the media's role as to support or not support but rather to report. I like that the media asks questions and raises issues, but it should be done to get to the truth not to protect or persecute.

Oh well, back now to the real world.

I think of it as more a natural reaction to feeling hoodwinked. Writers are trained to investigate (or should be), and the thought that they may have been used or misled can be a powerful incentive.

devildeac
06-23-2011, 03:03 PM
If you look at the Herald-Sun's online page..they have not even reported that the heels received the letter.
http://www.heraldsun.com/pages/sports_unc

Must be an oversight on their part:rolleyes:. Just like the truth was several years ago with the LAX incident:rolleyes:.

oldnavy
06-23-2011, 06:13 PM
Must be an oversight on their part:rolleyes:. Just like the truth was several years ago with the LAX incident:rolleyes:.

Or maybe their primary source is Butch Davis and he had no idea that they were being investigated??? :p

hudlow
06-24-2011, 10:55 AM
Scott Mooneyham writes a column that appears in many NC newspapers called Today in North Carolina



www.dailyadvance.com/opinion/other-views/scott-mooneyham-longer-davis-stays-coach-more-integrity-unc-loses-550369

killerleft
06-24-2011, 11:17 AM
Scott Mooneyham writes a column that appears in many NC newspapers called Today in North Carolina



www.dailyadvance.com/opinion/other-views/scott-mooneyham-longer-davis-stays-coach-more-integrity-unc-loses-550369

Once lies are told, or truths unsaid, the harder it is to own up to them later. Maybe (and this is being very charitable) the situation seemed less blatantly obvious at first, just a few pines obscuring the forest?

roywhite
06-24-2011, 11:48 AM
Once lies are told, or truths unsaid, the harder it is to own up to them later. Maybe (and this is being very charitable) the situation seemed less blatantly obvious at first, just a few pines obscuring the forest?

So the UNC decision makers have relied on damage control so far, and were either unaware of the repurcussions or hoped that the public would not be greatly concerned? That's my take so far.

It seems fair to say from recent media reaction that the University's integrity is taking a major hit. The perception has become more clear.

Will it take a William Friday or an Erskine Bowles speaking out for the University to react? Or will they really continue to downplay and play damage control?

killerleft
06-24-2011, 12:32 PM
So the UNC decision makers have relied on damage control so far, and were either unaware of the repurcussions or hoped that the public would not be greatly concerned? That's my take so far.

It seems fair to say from recent media reaction that the University's integrity is taking a major hit. The perception has become more clear.

Will it take a William Friday or an Erskine Bowles speaking out for the University to react? Or will they really continue to downplay and play damage control?

That is the question. Nobody on the Hill has the guts to fall on the sword.

On what day did the Carolina Way die? Was it the day of Matt Doherty's hire? The day Butch Davis came onboard? Or was the Carolina Way just a "Friends of Dean Smith" club, a chummy pals' group? Whenever it happened, or if the Carolina Way ever existed in reality, that sucker is dead as a doornail, now.

oldnavy
06-24-2011, 02:42 PM
It is easier to maintain a respectable reputation than it is to build one. For years UNC has claimed that they are better than the average program and they call their way "The Carolina Way".

Give them credit, for years they did what they needed to do to claim the high ground. They did not appear to cheat or take short cuts in order to win games.

Then something changed. They decided as an institution that they wanted to get to the next level and do it fast. They hired Butch Davis a big name coach and turned him loose, apparently with no oversight.

For that investment they are faced with 9 major NCAA allegations, and who knows what else lies below the surface of the tutor and car dealer’s financial benefits rendered to players.

Now, UNC has to decide if preserving “The Carolina Way” is worth the pain of coming clean. They have to have the courage to say they were wrong BEFORE the NCAA or the Press backs them into a corner. They need to confess their errors, repent and change their ways without hesitation. To wait is equal to seeing if they can get away with it. They know right NOW that at best Butch was ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL and at worst he is a lying cheat. They have a small window of time to act.

Anything less than quick, unprovoked (self imposed) action to correct the problems and UNC must drop the mantra and idea of “The Carolina Way”. They will have lost what it took years to build and they probably will never get it back.

Is Butch Davis and 8 wins a year worth it? Can Butch build UNC into a top tier program without the graft? I doubt it.

roywhite
06-24-2011, 03:05 PM
It is easier to maintain a respectable reputation than it is to build one. For years UNC has claimed that they are better than the average program and they call their way "The Carolina Way".

Give them credit, for years they did what they needed to do to claim the high ground. They did not appear to cheat or take short cuts in order to win games. Then something changed. They decided as an institution that they wanted to get to the next level and do it fast. They hired Butch Davis a big name coach and turned him loose, apparently with no oversight.

For that investment they are faced with 9 major NCAA allegations, and who knows what else lies below the surface of the tutor and car dealer’s financial benefits rendered to players.

Now, UNC has to decide if preserving “The Carolina Way” is worth the pain of coming clean. They have to have the courage to say they were wrong BEFORE the NCAA or the Press backs them into a corner. They need to confess their errors, repent and change their ways without hesitation. To wait is equal to seeing if they can get away with it. They know right NOW that at best Butch was ASLEEP AT THE WHEEL and at worst he is a lying cheat. They have a small window of time to act.

Anything less than quick, unprovoked (self imposed) action to correct the problems and UNC must drop the mantra and idea of “The Carolina Way”. They will have lost what it took years to build and they probably will never get it back.

Is Butch Davis and 8 wins a year worth it? Can Butch build UNC into a top tier program without the graft? I doubt it.

One thing I find strange here is that IMO Carolina does not need to cheat to win.
Mack Brown did quite well at Chapel Hill, and Mack has had a good reputation throughout his college coaching career. Lest we forget his success, according to wiki:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Brown#University_of_North_Carolina)

Brown coached the Tar Heels to five consecutive bowl games, including UNC's only two New Year's Day bowl games in more than half a century (or three, if one counts the 1992/93 Peach Bowl, which was played the day after New Year's to avoid a conflict with the Sugar Bowl). They were ranked in the AP Top 25 every week from October 1992 through the start of the 1995 season. They finished in the final rankings in four out of five years, including two straight appearances in the top 10. They also won 10 regular-season games in 1993 and 1997, only the second and third times the Tar Heels have accomplished this

UNC has a lot to offer prospective student-athletes and they are very successful in a number of sports. Are we just to assume that success in modern college football requires this level of cheating?

hudlow
06-24-2011, 03:06 PM
That is the question. Nobody on the Hill has the guts to fall on the sword.

On what day did the Carolina Way die? Was it the day of Matt Doherty's hire? The day Butch Davis came onboard? Or was the Carolina Way just a "Friends of Dean Smith" club, a chummy pals' group? Whenever it happened, or if the Carolina Way ever existed in reality, that sucker is dead as a doornail, now.

I believe that hiring Doherty was a desperate attempt to maintain "the Carolina way" and he was in over his head from day one. As far as I could tell he played it straight he just wasn't up to expectations.

I don't think there was a soul on earth that didn't know "the Carolina way" was headed for trouble when Butch Davis was hired.

Silly me, even I believed enough in "the Carolina way" that I thought they might take a less higher profile, less controversial, up-and-coming coach in order to preserve "the Carolina way" even if it meant a few more years of less than stellar, honest football.

Now, as far as I'm concerned "the Carolina way" is Ramses' excrement.

Indoor66
06-24-2011, 03:16 PM
That is the question. Nobody on the Hill has the guts to fall on the sword.

On what day did the Carolina Way die? Was it the day of Matt Doherty's hire? The day Butch Davis came onboard? Or was the Carolina Way just a "Friends of Dean Smith" club, a chummy pals' group? Whenever it happened, or if the Carolina Way ever existed in reality, that sucker is dead as a doornail, now.

The Carolina Way died the same Day The Music Died in Mason City, IA - with Buddy Holly, in 1959.

hudlow
06-24-2011, 03:19 PM
The Carolina Way died the same Day The Music Died in Mason City, IA - with Buddy Holly, in 1959.

Did Buddy play for Carolina?

:cool:

Indoor66
06-24-2011, 03:21 PM
Did Buddy play for Carolina?

:cool:

No, it was just "a long, long time ago...."

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-24-2011, 03:41 PM
This article was just posted by the N&O. I expect to see more such confirmations as the days go by. http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/06/24/1298282/unc-confirms-greg-little-received.html

hudlow
06-24-2011, 03:45 PM
No, it was just "a long, long time ago...."

Eight miles high and falling fast...

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-24-2011, 03:52 PM
The media sharks are slowly beginning to circle. http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/unc-identifies-football-players-in-parking-probe

oldnavy
06-24-2011, 04:08 PM
One thing I find strange here is that IMO Carolina does not need to cheat to win.
Mack Brown did quite well at Chapel Hill, and Mack has had a good reputation throughout his college coaching career. Lest we forget his success, according to wiki:
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mack_Brown#University_of_North_Carolina)


UNC has a lot to offer prospective student-athletes and they are very successful in a number of sports. Are we just to assume that success in modern college football requires this level of cheating?

I actually think that UNC's problems now extend from Mack Brown. UNC never seemed to get over Mack leaving...

hudlow
06-24-2011, 04:11 PM
The media sharks are slowly beginning to circle. http://blogs.newsobserver.com/accnow/unc-identifies-football-players-in-parking-probe

Don't you know this is causing such angst among the Carolina educated journalists in NC to have to print these stories...?

I'd advise them to up their fiber intake, it's not going to get any better for a long time.:)

hudlow
06-24-2011, 04:13 PM
I actually think that UNC's problems now extend from Mack Brown. UNC never seemed to get over Mack leaving...

A New Carolina Blue T-shirt?

It's All Mack's Fault

OldPhiKap
06-24-2011, 04:37 PM
A New Carolina Blue T-shirt?

It's All Mack's Fault

"Mack Brown: He doesn't give a @#$% about Carolina, either"

devildeac
06-24-2011, 04:45 PM
No, it was just "a long, long time ago...."


Eight miles high and falling fast...

"Helter, skelter, in a summer swelter..."

;):D

devildeac
06-24-2011, 04:50 PM
Don't you know this is causing such angst among the Carolina educated journalists in NC to have to print these stories...?

I'd advise them to up their fiber intake, it's not going to get any better for a long time.:)


A New Carolina Blue T-shirt?

It's All Mack's Fault


"Mack Brown: He doesn't give a @#$% about Carolina, either"

Looks like a good time to re-cycle this one:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/748a0362df/hitler-is-told-about-the-unc-ncaa-investigation

OldPhiKap
06-24-2011, 05:13 PM
"Helter, skelter, in a summer swelter..."

;):D

The players tried for a forward pass
With the Jester
On the sideline
in a cast . . . .

moonpie23
06-24-2011, 06:13 PM
If this actually becomes the investigation it SHOULD be by the NC ATTY GEN's office, then they can put the testimony of the tutor on the grid.....THEN things will get interesting.....

this could also spill over to other departments.

oldnavy
06-24-2011, 06:18 PM
Looks like a good time to re-cycle this one:
http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/748a0362df/hitler-is-told-about-the-unc-ncaa-investigation

That is so freakin' funny. I don't care who you are, you have to appreciate the sense of humor it takes to put something like that together.

-jk
06-24-2011, 07:35 PM
If this actually becomes the investigation it SHOULD be by the NC ATTY GEN's office, then they can put the testimony of the tutor on the grid.....THEN things will get interesting.....

this could also spill over to other departments.

IANAL, but I think there has to be a suspected crime for the AG to get involved. I'm not sure a tutor paying players' tickets is a crime. NCAA violation, sure, but not a crime.

-jk

sagegrouse
06-24-2011, 08:00 PM
IANAL, but I think there has to be a suspected crime for the AG to get involved. I'm not sure a tutor paying players' tickets is a crime. NCAA violation, sure, but not a crime.

-jk

NC has a sports agent law designed to prevent sports agents from tampering with college athletes. Over 40 states have statutes in this area. The question is, where did the money come from that Jennifer Wiley gave to the players? There is conceivably an agent link here, which would/could get the state involved.

BTW I see that Ohio State trustees are beginning to come on line with their concerns, and sponsoring a full investigation of what went wrong with the AD and the football program. I wouldn't prejudge what UNC trustees (and even the chancellor) ultimately do, but it is safe to say they are late to the party.

sagegrouse

CameronBornAndBred
06-24-2011, 08:06 PM
IANAL, but I think there has to be a suspected crime for the AG to get involved. I'm not sure a tutor paying players' tickets is a crime. NCAA violation, sure, but not a crime.

-jk
IF her money is coming from Butch's pockets, and IF she paid them, then that very well could be looked at as money laundering of state funds. And yes, that is a crime. He is a state employee, so those are tax payer dollars paying off the fines. If it was something under $100, then big whoop. But the amount that is being talked about..Big Whoop!! No wonder she lawyered up.

uh_no
06-24-2011, 09:01 PM
Eight miles high and falling fast...

lets just hope they land FOUL on the grass....

-jk
06-24-2011, 09:19 PM
IF her money is coming from Butch's pockets, and IF she paid them, then that very well could be looked at as money laundering of state funds. And yes, that is a crime. He is a state employee, so those are tax payer dollars paying off the fines. If it was something under $100, then big whoop. But the amount that is being talked about..Big Whoop!! No wonder she lawyered up.

I think Davis is an employee of the Educational Foundation (aka the Rams Club), not the state. Dean got around the state's mandatory retirement age the same way, IIRC.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but it's a tough nut to crack. (And I'd love to see it cracked!)

ArkieDukie
06-24-2011, 09:26 PM
I actually think that UNC's problems now extend from Mack Brown. UNC never seemed to get over Mack leaving...

I think that's pretty accurate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the folks in baby blue complain that Mack Brown couldn't win the ACC? IIRC, unc finished 2nd to F$U for several seasons, and the fans were getting miffed about never winning the conference. He then chose to exit stage right for Texas. I thnk I even remember that people were actually happy to see him leave. Am I remembering correctly? If so, then the unc fans got exactly what they deserved.

CameronBornAndBred
06-24-2011, 09:53 PM
I think Davis is an employee of the Educational Foundation (aka the Rams Club), not the state. Dean got around the state's mandatory retirement age the same way, IIRC.

I'm not trying to be difficult, but it's a tough nut to crack. (And I'd love to see it cracked!)
How are you empoyed by the flagship university of North Carolina and not be employed by the state? I'm assuming all of his benefits are paid for by the state. Which means by me. You may be right, but I don't think so. IF you are the HC of the UNC football team..you are employed by the state, overseeing a program largely funded by the state. (Sure, there are private donors..there has to be). But still...

moonpie23
06-24-2011, 10:25 PM
IANAL, but I think there has to be a suspected crime for the AG to get involved. I'm not sure a tutor paying players' tickets is a crime. NCAA violation, sure, but not a crime.

-jk

she will have to come clean about where the money came from. She will have to give them a name. there IS a money trail....

devildeac
06-24-2011, 10:31 PM
lets just hope they land FOUL on the grass....

I couldn't figure out how to work that line into the thread. Well done.

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/eusa/clap.gif

Indoor66
06-25-2011, 06:41 AM
I couldn't figure out how to work that line into the thread. Well done.

http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/eusa/clap.gif

You just drive you're Chevy to the Levee and the answer is there.

oldnavy
06-25-2011, 07:30 AM
How are you empoyed by the flagship university of North Carolina and not be employed by the state? I'm assuming all of his benefits are paid for by the state. Which means by me. You may be right, but I don't think so. IF you are the HC of the UNC football team..you are employed by the state, overseeing a program largely funded by the state. (Sure, there are private donors..there has to be). But still...

He gets State Police protection, not sure how that matters but I thought I would throw it in there.

Not to change the topic, but just because he is an employee of the state, how can he be held to standards on spending his salary? I am no lawyer, but doesn't the money become his property to do with as he pleases? I mean he cannot possibly be held to the statues on how to spend state money in his private life? If that were the case he would never be able to donate money to a church, or buy a car without getting 14 bids, etc... I was a federal employee during my service and the issue of how I spent my salary never came up in the MANY, MANY confict of interest and ethics briefs I sat through. We did have to disclose any holdings we had with industry, but that was because I controlled a rather large pharmacy budget and they wanted to make sure I didn't have any PHARMA stocks and directed formulary decisions towards companies I had stock in (I neither have nor had any PHARMA stocks btw).

I just don't see how that would work. Obivously, he cannot spend it to do illegal things, but I do not see the state employee connection to how he spends his salaray here.

That whole agent law thing is a different issue. But I would be shocked to see any aggressive action taken by the AG on this.

uh_no
06-25-2011, 10:34 AM
You just drive you're Chevy to the Levee and the answer is there.

can't drive atm....too much whisky and rye

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-25-2011, 11:49 AM
The N&O today has another article about the parking tickets and the information released by the university. It seems that not all the tickets are accounted for in the recent release of information by the university. One name missing in the most recent release is Marvin Austin who was mentioned in earlier releases. The headline is pretty apt in this case.
http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/06/25/1299298/questions-pile-up-with-tickets.html

I suspect that there may be daily or even more frequent releases of refinements and details as the media now focus on finding out what really happened within the football program in particular and the athletic department in general.

Thurber Whyte
06-25-2011, 01:42 PM
I think that's pretty accurate. Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the folks in baby blue complain that Mack Brown couldn't win the ACC? IIRC, unc finished 2nd to F$U for several seasons, and the fans were getting miffed about never winning the conference. He then chose to exit stage right for Texas. I thnk I even remember that people were actually happy to see him leave. Am I remembering correctly? If so, then the unc fans got exactly what they deserved.

You remember correctly. One of my all time favorite FITS posts (which I cannot find) was something along the lines of, “Wow, the football team is 10-2. Imagine how great we’d be if we had a real coach!”

Some were not unhappy that he left. However, most of these same people were annoyed that ended up leaving Carolina for a better job.

devildeac
06-25-2011, 03:36 PM
You just drive you're Chevy to the Levee and the answer is there.

Doubt it. IIRC, the levee was dry...
;)

devildeac
06-25-2011, 03:38 PM
The N&O today has another article about the parking tickets and the information released by the university. It seems that not all the tickets are accounted for in the recent release of information by the university. One name missing in the most recent release is Marvin Austin who was mentioned in earlier releases. The headline is pretty apt in this case.
http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/06/25/1299298/questions-pile-up-with-tickets.html

I suspect that there may be daily or even more frequent releases of refinements and details as the media now focus on finding out what really happened within the football program in particular and the athletic department in general.
I read that this AM. Marvin "only" accounts for 68 of those tickets:rolleyes:>

devildeac
06-25-2011, 03:58 PM
You remember correctly. One of my all time favorite FITS posts (which I cannot find) was something along the lines of, “Wow, the football team is 10-2. Imagine how great we’d be if we had a real coach!”

Some were not unhappy that he left. However, most of these same people were annoyed that ended up leaving Carolina for a better job.

I like to remember his record these years:


1989 North Carolina 1-10

1988 North Carolina 1-10


I believe he may have been nominated for the Nobel Prize during/after his 2nd year at unc for finding a cure for "carolina fever" which was running rampant in the state at that time. ;):rolleyes:

Duvall
06-25-2011, 04:19 PM
I like to remember his record these years:


1989 North Carolina 1-10

1988 North Carolina 1-10


I believe he may have been nominated for the Nobel Prize during/after his 2nd year at unc for finding a cure for "carolina fever" which was running rampant in the state at that time. ;):rolleyes:

http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics/400/PC/PCWWGHDGSLUNTAZ.20090924140628.jpg

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-25-2011, 05:42 PM
http://image.cdnl3.xosnetwork.com/pics/400/PC/PCWWGHDGSLUNTAZ.20090924140628.jpg

Now that's a scene that brought on all manner of wrath!

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-25-2011, 05:44 PM
I read that this AM. Marvin "only" accounts for 68 of those tickets:rolleyes:>
And don't forget the part about Marvin's car having Johnny White's license plate on it. Something about how he'd applied for but couldn't get a permanent plate for over six months......

CameronBornAndBred
06-25-2011, 07:16 PM
Not to change the topic, but just because he is an employee of the state, how can he be held to standards on spending his salary? I am no lawyer, but doesn't the money become his property to do with as he pleases?
Fair question and agreed. But if we are going to look at it that way, then we can't question where did Ms. Wiley get her money to pay the tickets. Well we can, we can't just can't pass judgement when we find the answer. The purpose in the question is obviously implying that it came from Davis as he employed her.

ncexnyc
06-25-2011, 07:51 PM
What's so ironic about this story, is the fact that Carolina fans are so quick to point out the multitude of excuses Kentucky fans make for Calipari, yet they are using the very same excuses for Davis.

I realize the man didn't get caught with his hand in the cookie jar, but the pile of crumbs at his feet and the ones all over his shirt, should be enough to prove something wrong took place.

Ms. Wiley obstructed the investigation and is supposedly getting a lawyer. Who is she trying to protect and why?

devildeac
06-25-2011, 09:20 PM
Now that's a scene that brought on all manner of wrath!

And, unfortunately, we have endured that wrath for quite a number of years now:mad:.

devildeac
06-25-2011, 09:22 PM
And don't forget the part about Marvin's car having Johnny White's license plate on it. Something about how he'd applied for but couldn't get a permanent plate for over six months......

Yea, it's becoming difficult to tell the criminals, err, players, with out a parole board, err, program:rolleyes:.

moonpie23
06-25-2011, 09:31 PM
Ms. Wiley obstructed the investigation and is supposedly getting a lawyer.

she didn't just get "a lawyer".....she got one of THE lawyers... (one of the top 3 in the state)

it's so obvious that they expect some heavy artillery ......

Devil in the Blue Dress
06-25-2011, 09:50 PM
she didn't just get "a lawyer".....she got one of THE lawyers... (one of the top 3 in the state)

it's so obvious that they expect some heavy artillery ......
Her most recent job is that of a public school teacher. This does not have the appearance of pro bono work. Another question arises ...... source of money for her attorney's fees?

77devil
06-26-2011, 06:00 AM
Her most recent job is that of a public school teacher. This does not have the appearance of pro bono work. Another question arises ...... source of money for her attorney's fees?

It is a simple quid pro quo. Ms. Wiley, no doubt, knows a lot more than certain boosters(and the University for that matter but they can't help financially) want to become public. She probably has a legal defense fund already salted with contributions from Ram's Club members. The appearance may be somewhat unsavory, but my bet is that her attorney's fees were taken care from the moment she retained counsel.

JStuart
06-26-2011, 08:17 AM
You remember correctly. One of my all time favorite FITS posts (which I cannot find) was something along the lines of, “Wow, the football team is 10-2. Imagine how great we’d be if we had a real coach!”

Some were not unhappy that he left. However, most of these same people were annoyed that ended up leaving Carolina for a better job.

Yet another unexplained gap in this entire invest...ah, REVIEW is,
where has FITS been? Did he leave with Blake and Wiley? Did Baddour disassociate UNC from him?

I'm really curious, and FITS may actually have all the info needed for the Secretary of State to proceed.....(or not!)

JStuart (tickled to learn that one can't use the acronym/phrase 'I am not a lawyer' without using 'ANAL')

oldnavy
06-26-2011, 08:26 AM
Fair question and agreed. But if we are going to look at it that way, then we can't question where did Ms. Wiley get her money to pay the tickets. Well we can, we can't just can't pass judgement when we find the answer. The purpose in the question is obviously implying that it came from Davis as he employed her.

Oh, don't get me wrong, I think it is important where the money came from. I just think it will be of more interest to the NCAA than the AG.

billy
06-26-2011, 08:46 AM
In the court of public perception, if the most UNC apologist of all the "newspapers" is calling them out, the tide has indeed turned against Thorp, Butch, Baddour:

http://www.chapelhillnews.com/2011/06/26/65213/dropping-the-ball.html

I can't find a link to the editorial cartoon printed beside the piece above; it shows Baddour and Butch sunbathing (!!!!) next to Thorp while a black cloud labelled "NCAA investigation" begins to slowly block out the sun.

Usually I immediately recycle the CH News part of the N&O, happy today that I looked inside.

killerleft
06-26-2011, 11:33 AM
UNC's heirarchy had every chance to lessen the media sting that has occurred in the last few days. In retrospect, the press' waiting (mostly) on the official NCAA letter before showing some fangs may have lured Carolina into believing they had a chance to minimize public condemnation.

Damage control is much harder now. The press will be investigating with a new vigor. Who knows what new things might come to light now that the gloves are off?

An ounce of prevention, such as some contrition and self-imposed penaltiies, may have worked wonders. Has UNC waited too late for such concessions? Or can they still score some points with the public by policing themselves now?

Once the hunt has begun, the dogs are hard to call off. Bark, babies, bark. Duke and the ACC shouldn't have to compete against a UNC football team that has cheated in order to best its rivals.

OldPhiKap
06-26-2011, 11:59 AM
=An ounce of prevention, such as some contrition and self-imposed penaltiies, may have worked wonders. Has UNC waited too late for such concessions?

Time to find out if the NCAA is a joke or not, because that's always the implied threat if an institution does not self-impose sufficient punishment. But I do not have a lot of faith in the NCAA, so we'll see.

sagegrouse
06-26-2011, 12:55 PM
UNC's heirarchy had every chance to lessen the media sting that has occurred in the last few days. In retrospect, the press' waiting (mostly) on the official NCAA letter before showing some fangs may have lured Carolina into believing they had a chance to minimize public condemnation.

Damage control is much harder now. The press will be investigating with a new vigor. Who knows what new things might come to light now that the gloves are off?

An ounce of prevention, such as some contrition and self-imposed penaltiies, may have worked wonders. Has UNC waited too late for such concessions? Or can they still score some points with the public by policing themselves now?

Once the hunt has begun, the dogs are hard to call off. Bark, babies, bark. Duke and the ACC shouldn't have to compete against a UNC football team that has cheated in order to best its rivals.


Time to find out if the NCAA is a joke or not, because that's always the implied threat if an institution does not self-impose sufficient punishment. But I do not have a lot of faith in the NCAA, so we'll see.

Killerleft has said that UNC has waited too long, and the dogs are hard to call off. I agree that UNC has unnecessarily damaged its reputation for honesty, integrity, and academic primacy. I believe it is tactical. NCAA penalties are typically a matter of some negotiation, in that the offending school, when found guilty, proposes penalties and the NCAA reacts. I believe -- stupid me -- that the only thing keeping Butch Davis on the job is that it is not yet time to throw him under the bus, and that the academic leadership will eventually man the guillotine, but is biding its time until such an action would have maximum effect. [I am so naive in thinking that the leadership at UNC has such integrity.]

Now whether a gusher of apologies and self-flagellation would save UNC from the pack of dogs in the media seems doubtful. The guys and gals looking for scoops, when they smell blood in the water, will go into high gear. UNC admitting to "high crimes and misdemeanors" may only encourage them. This is IMHO, where the H is usually silent.

Now the NCAA's response will be interesting to see, won't it? UNC's actions, while more widespread, may not be as serious as the sins of USC, where its Heisman trophy winner was being paid by agents throughout his career there. OTOH the UNC case is IMHO far more serious than Tattoo-Gate at Ohio State. The prime problem at Ohio State is the "smoking gun" in the form of e-mails to and from Tressel. That cooked his goose for sure. Whether the absence of a smoking gun is enough to save Butch Davis is another matter. It may be that the NCAA invokes a one-year suspension of Butch or some such penalty. But the question of the institutional penalty is the key one -- loss of scholarships and loss of post-season play seem the most likely penalties. I think both are probable with respect to football. I doubt that basketball or other sports are penalized. But as OldPhiKap says, "We'll see."

sagegrouse

oldnavy
06-26-2011, 03:20 PM
Killerleft has said that UNC has waited too long, and the dogs are hard to call off. I agree that UNC has unnecessarily damaged its reputation for honesty, integrity, and academic primacy. I believe it is tactical. NCAA penalties are typically a matter of some negotiation, in that the offending school, when found guilty, proposes penalties and the NCAA reacts. I believe -- stupid me -- that the only thing keeping Butch Davis on the job is that it is not yet time to throw him under the bus, and that the academic leadership will eventually man the guillotine, but is biding its time until such an action would have maximum effect. [I am so naive in thinking that the leadership at UNC has such integrity.]

Now whether a gusher of apologies and self-flagellation would save UNC from the pack of dogs in the media seems doubtful. The guys and gals looking for scoops, when they smell blood in the water, will go into high gear. UNC admitting to "high crimes and misdemeanors" may only encourage them. This is IMHO, where the H is usually silent.

Now the NCAA's response will be interesting to see, won't it? UNC's actions, while more widespread, may not be as serious as the sins of USC, where its Heisman trophy winner was being paid by agents throughout his career there. OTOH the UNC case is IMHO far more serious than Tattoo-Gate at Ohio State. The prime problem at Ohio State is the "smoking gun" in the form of e-mails to and from Tressel. That cooked his goose for sure. Whether the absence of a smoking gun is enough to save Butch Davis is another matter. It may be that the NCAA invokes a one-year suspension of Butch or some such penalty. But the question of the institutional penalty is the key one -- loss of scholarships and loss of post-season play seem the most likely penalties. I think both are probable with respect to football. I doubt that basketball or other sports are penalized. But as OldPhiKap says, "We'll see."

sagegrouse

I cannot disagree with your reasoning and you may be right on the money.

I tend to think that if the idea is to portray true remorse and contrition, then you need to do the right thing regardless of how it impacts your punishment. If UNC waits and holds back to see how "little" they have to give up then are they showing any remorse or attempt to do the right thing?

I say fire Butch, and the AD NOW and let the NCAA do what it feels it needs to do later.

Part of "The Carolina Way" was doing the right thing. Well doing the right thing is not waiting to see how little you have to give up and therefore maximizing what you can get away with.

What if UNC does wait and does cut a deal in order to keep Butch? Will anyone think that UNC is honorable and above the rest? Of course not.

Something is different over on the Hill. Someone who cares more about winning a "few more" football games is calling the shots now. What I find really ironic is that they are going backwards the longer they hold onto Butch. He is not that good of a coach, and he will not be any better with sanctions and the watchful eye of the NCAA on him.

At this point I hope they do keep him. Let’s see how many 6-5 or 7-4 seasons the big money over on the hill will tolerate.

uh_no
06-26-2011, 03:26 PM
Something is different over on the Hill. Someone who cares more about winning a "few more" football games is calling the shots now. What I find really ironic is that they are going backwards the longer they hold onto Butch. He is not that good of a coach, and he will not be any better with sanctions and the watchful eye of the NCAA on him.

At this point I hope they do keep him. Let’s see how many 6-5 or 7-4 seasons the big money over on the hill will tolerate.

This. I can't see why Carolina people are so ready to stick up for this guy....they haven't been particularly good. I can understand OSU fans sticking up for Tressel....he puts them in the BCS every year. (and what he did pales in comparison to what happened at UNC). UNC people have a coach who doesn't win a ton, and who doesn't have any integrity....what's the point? If you're gonna compromise your integrity, shouldn't you at least expect a top 10 football team out of the deal?

CameronBornAndBred
06-26-2011, 03:28 PM
He is not that good of a coach, and he will not be any better with sanctions and the watchful eye of the NCAA on him.

You know, that is very true. I remember just two seasons ago several heels calling for his ousting due the miserable season they were having. (Yes they played in a bowl..but barely.) As Duke fans, we loved that year..similar to when the basketball season of the same year left many ballers with bus tire prints on their jerseys. They are paying big money with little results. You have to wonder why the powers that be feel that he is worth the fight. Maybe he has a magical cologne and smells pretty.

Acymetric
06-26-2011, 03:28 PM
This. I can't see why Carolina people are so ready to stick up for this guy....they haven't been particularly good. I can understand OSU fans sticking up for Tressel....he puts them in the BCS every year. (and what he did pales in comparison to what happened at UNC). UNC people have a coach who doesn't win a ton, and who doesn't have any integrity....what's the point? If you're gonna compromise your integrity, shouldn't you at least expect a top 10 football team out of the deal?

If the NCAA and Marvin Austin hadn't ruined their season (with no blame for the coaches, other players and administration) unc would have been a title contender last year.

Ridiculous thought process? Yes, but that is where most unc fans seem to come from.

Verga3
06-26-2011, 03:57 PM
I cannot disagree with your reasoning and you may be right on the money.

I tend to think that if the idea is to portray true remorse and contrition, then you need to do the right thing regardless of how it impacts your punishment. If UNC waits and holds back to see how "little" they have to give up then are they showing any remorse or attempt to do the right thing?

I say fire Butch, and the AD NOW and let the NCAA do what it feels it needs to do later.

Part of "The Carolina Way" was doing the right thing. Well doing the right thing is not waiting to see how little you have to give up and therefore maximizing what you can get away with.

What if UNC does wait and does cut a deal in order to keep Butch? Will anyone think that UNC is honorable and above the rest? Of course not.

Something is different over on the Hill. Someone who cares more about winning a "few more" football games is calling the shots now. What I find really ironic is that they are going backwards the longer they hold onto Butch. He is not that good of a coach, and he will not be any better with sanctions and the watchful eye of the NCAA on him.

At this point I hope they do keep him. Let’s see how many 6-5 or 7-4 seasons the big money over on the hill will tolerate.

Very much agree that action should be taken NOW. UNC's institutional reputation will be sullied immeasurably by waiting to react to the NCAA. Do what is right and do it NOW. UNC is too great an institution and the ACC is too great a conference to be tarred (sorry) even more. I would not be completely surprised if Tom Ross, the new head of the UNC system, and a man of unquestioned integrity, hasn't spoken with Chancellor Thorp about his plans. I know this has to be killing his predecessors...

sagegrouse
06-26-2011, 04:08 PM
Very much agree that action should be taken NOW. UNC's institutional reputation will be sullied immeasurably by waiting to react to the NCAA. Do what is right and do it NOW. UNC is too great an institution and the ACC is too great a conference to be tarred (sorry) even more. I would not be completely surprised if Tom Ross, the new head of the UNC system, and a man of unquestioned integrity, hasn't spoken with Chancellor Thorp about his plans. I know this has to be killing his predecessors...

Ah, I have it! The Tarred Heels! Thanks, Verga3.

sagegrouse

roywhite
06-26-2011, 04:12 PM
If the NCAA and Marvin Austin hadn't ruined their season (with no blame for the coaches, other players and administration) unc would have been a title contender last year.

Ridiculous thought process? Yes, but that is where most unc fans seem to come from.

UNC had 9 players selected in the recent NFL draft, more than any other college. There are another 3-4 guys who will likely get tryouts as free agents, and there are a number of other good pro prospects coming back. Hard to say how good they might have been this last season without the suspensions.

Of course, it's also hard to tell just how many rules were violated in the recruitment and treatment of these NFL prospects.

moonpie23
06-26-2011, 07:03 PM
if butch loses to State one more time, he may not have to worry about the ncaa...

OldPhiKap
06-26-2011, 07:35 PM
if butch loses to State one more time, he may not have to worry about the ncaa...

Does it count if he wins, but it is later vacated?!?

CameronBornAndBred
06-26-2011, 07:37 PM
if butch loses to State one more time, he may not have to worry about the ncaa...
Sigh..I gotta spread the love before spreading the sporks, but very nice jab! "If they touch my tutor one more time, I'll set the stadium on fire."

Newton_14
06-26-2011, 08:13 PM
If you want the latest pulse check on what the current thoughts of the Heel Brass are on this whole mess, check out the latest from their pitchman, Greg Barnes: Linky:http://northcarolina.scout.com/2/1082104.html

It is a good article in terms of finding out how the process works from here, and what the expected timing is. But still shows no contrition from UNC or evidence that UNC wants to face this head on and deal with it. Damage control is still very much the number one goal.

On a side note, I actually found the article in WRAL.Com's sports section. I continue to be amazed at just how much WRAL is in bed with InsideCarolina.com and Greg Barnes. They list other blogs, including DBR, but unless I somehow have missed it, Greg is the only blogger whose articles WRAL posts, and they post tons of his articles. Like I said earlier, I have not seen any representation on WRAL from Duke or State websites. They basically treat Barnes like their own journalist that posts sports articles.


Key quotes from the "article":


"We will gather the information the NCAA has requested and prepare to address the notice with the NCAA in the fall,” Baddour said in a prepared release earlier this week. “We have a strong staff that will help get us through this and put us in a position where we will be a better athletic department as a result.”

As described in the notice of allegations, if school officials don’t believe that an allegation is “substantially correct” or that an allegation is “substantially correct” but is not complete or fully accurate, then any evidence supporting that claim must be submitted.


The NCAA website notes that penalties are assigned on a case-by-case basis as “each case is unique, and applying case precedent is difficult (if not impossible) because all cases are different.”

As previously reported by Inside Carolina, expected penalties include probation, minimal scholarship losses and a likely forfeiture of wins. Restrictions on postseason play or television contracts are not expected, and recent NCAA rulings fall in line with those expectations.

moonpie23
06-26-2011, 08:58 PM
the time line of the ncaa's investigation is so slow that i wonder how much damage control they CAN do.....i mean, the investigation is NOT over, is it? Are they just notifying unc about what we've read and they are done? (except sanctions)

when i look at the time line for USC and TOSU it makes me feel like unc is going to use a time-space continuum to skate....

many on this board have expressed opinions that it is just a matter of time..i don't feel that confident...

did greg little play on the 09 basktball championship team at any time during the title run?

devildeac
06-26-2011, 10:19 PM
the time line of the ncaa's investigation is so slow that i wonder how much damage control they CAN do.....i mean, the investigation is NOT over, is it? Are they just notifying unc about what we've read and they are done? (except sanctions)

when i look at the time line for USC and TOSU it makes me feel like unc is going to use a time-space continuum to skate....

many on this board have expressed opinions that it is just a matter of time..i don't feel that confident...

did greg little play on the 09 basktball championship team at any time during the title run?

Unfortunately, I believe the answer is no:mad:. Great thought however.

Marc Campbell 2 G 5–11 175 Junior Raleigh, NC Ravenscroft
Mike Copeland 40 F 6–7 235 Senior Winston-Salem, NC R. J. Reynolds
Ed Davis 32 F-C 6–10 220 Freshman Richmond, VA Benedictine
Larry Drew II 11 G 6–1 180 Freshman Encino, CA Woodland Hills Taft
Wayne Ellington 22 G 6–4 200 Junior Wynnewood, PA Episcopal Academy
Bobby Frasor 4 G 6–3 210 Senior Blue Island, IL Brother Rice
Marcus Ginyard 1 G-F 6–5 220 Senior Alexandria, VA Bishop O'Connell
Will Graves 13 F-G 6–6 245 Sophomore Greensboro, NC Dudley
Danny Green 14 F-G 6–6 210 Senior North Babylon, NY St. Mary's
Tyler Hansbrough 50 C 6–9 250 Senior Poplar Bluff, MO Poplar Bluff
Ty Lawson 5 G 5–11 195 Junior Clinton, MD Oak Hill Academy
Patrick Moody 35 F 6–4 195 Senior Asheville, NC T. C. Roberson
J.B. Tanner 15 G 6–0 185 Senior Hendersonville, NC West Henderson
Deon Thompson 21 F 6–8 240 Junior Torrance, CA Torrance
Justin Watts 24 G 6–4 205 Freshman Durham, NC Jordan
Jack Wooten 30 G 6–2 190 Senior Burlington, NC Williams
Tyler Zeller 44 C 7–0 220 Freshman Washington, IN Washington

That's one heckuva roster. 17 guys. Almost as large as their 2010 FB team when you factor out suspended/ineligible players:rolleyes:.

oldnavy
06-27-2011, 06:31 AM
UNC had 9 players selected in the recent NFL draft, more than any other college. There are another 3-4 guys who will likely get tryouts as free agents, and there are a number of other good pro prospects coming back. Hard to say how good they might have been this last season without the suspensions.

Of course, it's also hard to tell just how many rules were violated in the recruitment and treatment of these NFL prospects.

Hey, I didn't say that John Blake couldn't recruit! ;)

And that may very well have been the greatest moment in UNC football.

Verga3
06-28-2011, 10:07 PM
Here's the Sporting News latest...

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2010-08/unc-investigation/story/plausible-deniability-no-longer-a-sound-defense

Chancellor Thorp, PLEASE step up to the plate for yours and our fine University and do it NOW. Both UNC and the ACC are already going to be tarnished by this debacle. The ACC does not deserve it. UNC may deserve it (but only temporarily), but it's up to you to do damage control for your fine University. Step up and do the hard thing, the right thing, Chancellor.....hopefully it's not too late. Bunkering in, I promise you, will not look good in hindsight. Can't you see the future?

hudlow
07-05-2011, 12:42 PM
They gotta come out of that bunker sooner or later...

CameronBornAndBred
07-05-2011, 01:20 PM
Here's a good one. Michael McAdoo is suing both unc and the NCAA.


A former North Carolina football player has filed a lawsuit against the school and the NCAA, seeking reinstatement after being declared permanently ineligible for academic misconduct.

http://www.newschief.com/article/20110705/APS/1107050758

BD80
07-05-2011, 02:21 PM
Here's a good one. Michael McAdoo is suing both unc and the NCAA.

http://www.newschief.com/article/20110705/APS/1107050758

This is delicious! It appears he is suing for "reinstatement," which I take to mean play football. Amusing that it is the loss of the opportunity to play fball that damaged him, not the loss of a unc edumacation.

Since the allegation is negligence in ruling the player ineligible based on "inaccurate information" relating to "improper benefits and academic misconduct," the suit will give the NCAA subpoena power into all related issues.

unc is in poor position, since it cannot reinstate the player without NCAA permission without risking the season. I don't think the university, a state institution, can be liable for damages in this case, so any settlement would clearly be hush money.

devildeac
07-05-2011, 08:53 PM
Should the title of this thread be changed to UNC Football Scandal-The Cheat Goes On?

Verga3
07-05-2011, 09:16 PM
Here's the Sporting News latest...

http://aol.sportingnews.com/ncaa-football/feed/2010-08/unc-investigation/story/plausible-deniability-no-longer-a-sound-defense

Chancellor Thorp, PLEASE step up to the plate for yours and our fine University and do it NOW. Both UNC and the ACC are already going to be tarnished by this debacle. The ACC does not deserve it. UNC may deserve it (but only temporarily), but it's up to you to do damage control for your fine University. Step up and do the hard thing, the right thing, Chancellor.....hopefully it's not too late. Bunkering in, I promise you, will not look good in hindsight. Can't you see the future?

I realize it's probably bad form to link your own post (anybody dare do this disgusting thing?), but UNC is inarguably, a world class academic institution. The fact that, in the midst of this, that Chancellor Thorp has not already made a definitive public statement championing his University and it's institutional mission and integrity is incredible to me (I hope I have just missed it). Grow a pair and do the right thing. This whole episode knocks UNC and the ACC back in the public's eyes and will be the subject of and fodder for the press for too many years to come.

I love the ACC and the integrity and excellence, academic and athletic, that has been it's hallmark for so many years. I fear that this heritage will be severly tarnished later this year without some courageous, certainly open-eyed, action NOW.

Duvall
07-05-2011, 11:23 PM
Grow a pair and do the right thing. This whole episode knocks UNC and the ACC back in the public's eyes and will be the subject of and fodder for the press for too many years to come.

I love the ACC and the integrity and excellence, academic and athletic, that has been it's hallmark for so many years. I fear that this heritage will be severly tarnished later this year without some courageous, certainly open-eyed, action NOW.

Well, don't expect any decisive action from the Commissioner's office. It's not like we're talking about something important like the lineup decisions for the Florida State women's soccer team.

CameronBornAndBred
07-06-2011, 12:44 AM
Always pay cash!!!


So, as a public service to dishonest coaches everywhere, I'm offering these seven simple rules that will guarantee your clandestine activities will never rise above the level of message-board wives tale. Just think of it as NCAA Cheating for Dummies.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/07/05/cheating-for-dummies/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

Philawolf
07-10-2011, 02:24 AM
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/andy_staples/07/08/unc-ncaa-michael-mcadoo/index.html

Just to spell it out, as I don't think any of the articles have done a particularly good job.

McAdoo "writes" [read copies and pastes] guts of paper.
McAdoo sends paper to Wiley [the tutor that did work for the players and paid for their parking tickets]
Wiley "fixes" the citations page.
McAdoo turns in the paper.
McAdoo receives an 'A' in the class.
Marvin tweets about his party in Miami
NCAA comes to town
One of the football players slips up and tells the NCAA about Wiley.
UNC says, we'll look into it.
UNC finds that she helped a bunch of players including McAdoo across multiple courses and semesters.
McAdoo goes to Honor Court to clear his name.
Two of the cases were dropped.
In the remaining course its found that McAdoo received to much help from Wiley on the citations page and he is given a 'F' and suspended.
UNC AD tells NCAA that the work was "McAdoo's own" and she only helped with the citations.
NCAA rules he's ineligible because the cheating ocurred over multiple courses.
Generous UNC Law school graduate and football fan takes up McAdoo's case that he was wrongfully given a lifetime ban and sues UNC and the NCAA
They publish the paper as part of the lawsuit.
Someone over at PackPride read the document from the N&O attachement and thinks that's an odd phrase for a college kid to write.
PackPride poster Googles said phrase, finds entire passages with a few words changed here and there inserted.
He compiles the first four pages and sends it to every media outlet he can find.


What seems insane to NC State fans is that plagiarism this blatant could be missed by:

The Professor - particularly since some of the works were quite old and the paper very disjointed.
The athletic department when they were reviewing a case of academic fraud by one of their athletes.
The Honor Court that was looking into the case (even though it did find him guilty of receiving too much help from Wiley).


Which begs the question, how can this type of blatant plagiarism go through all of these reviews and still not get caught by anyone at UNC? Is this a systemic situation wherein all of their athletes are able to get away with this level of academic fraud? Are no papers checked for plagiarism?

How blatant? This blatant. (http://www.redwolfsolutions.com/sam/mcacheat.pdf)

If I'm the professor grading that paper, I read the title "The History" and compare it to the prose written, and think wow this doesn't add up, and I know nothing about the topic.

SmartDevil
07-10-2011, 03:37 AM
1. Is this the entire "paper" (as it seems to be) or a portion of it. Rampant cheating apart, it is only 3 1/2 pages! Was this document a major part of the academic product for that UNC course? Or more like one of many simple homework assignments?

2. I was under the impression that today students' papers were scanned to find material listed from archived sources. How widespread is that practice?

MCFinARL
07-10-2011, 11:19 AM
1. Is this the entire "paper" (as it seems to be) or a portion of it. Rampant cheating apart, it is only 3 1/2 pages! Was this document a major part of the academic product for that UNC course? Or more like one of many simple homework assignments?

2. I was under the impression that today students' papers were scanned to find material listed from archived sources. How widespread is that practice?

I am not at UNC and I can't answer #1, but as I teach at another university I can give a general answer to #2. Scanning software like turnitin.com costs money--many universities purchase licenses, but not all. My university discontinued its turnitin subscription for a less expensive, and less effective, product a couple of years ago. Instructors could, of course, purchase their own licenses, but since many of the people who actually read papers are TA's or poorly paid adjunct faculty, they might not be all that interested in making a personal contribution.

Once the university provides the software, also, it's up to the individual instructor whether to use it, and whether to use it for all papers or only those that seem suspicious. (I suppose some universities might adopt across-the-board policies on this; mine has not.)

At their best, though, these programs are far from 100% reliable. For one thing, they are frustrating to use because they identify properly quoted and cited material as well as plagiarized material. They are also unlikely to find plagiarized sources where the student has gone to the trouble of finding something in an actual book that is not published on line anywhere. Even for web sources, they don't seem very complete--in my experience, I have found more instances of plagiarism by doing my own Google searches than by using plagiarism detection software.

And, of course, no plagiarism detection search will uncover cheating by those with the resources to purchase custom-written papers.

What is most shocking about this to me is how clumsy and easy to find the plagiarism was and how many people apparently made no attempt to detect it before defending McAdoo's work. Whether the penalty of permanent loss of eligibility, as opposed to the year he has already lost, was too strict, which I gather is the issue in McAdoo's lawsuit, is another question--but the university certainly hasn't covered itself in glory with its own handling of this situation.

Philawolf
07-10-2011, 12:40 PM
^^ It's not the whole paper, but from what I understand the rest of the paper is just as bad. The guy who found just stopped after the first few pages, as he thought the point was made.

^Given that the plagiarism comprised nearly the entire paper, what do you think the odds are that this was his only offense? I would bet dollars to donuts that if one did some digging on his papers for other classes that more of the same would be found.

Olympic Fan
07-10-2011, 01:06 PM
Just one reaction to the comments about UNC AD Dick Baddour on the front page today.

He absolutely is to blame for the Doherty fiasco and (although not mentioned) for the Frank Beamer/Carl Torbush fiasco. If you don't remember, he fired Torbush because he thought he had an agreement to hire Frank Beamer from VPI (they weren't in the league then), but Beamer flew back to Blacksburg, squeezed a better deal out of the Hokies and Baddour was left having to re-hire Torbush.

Something similar led to the Doherty disaster. He botched the hiring of Roy Williams. He got a verbal agreement for Roy to replace Guthridge after the 2000 season, but let him fly back to Lawrence without a written agreement. While Baddour was getting the agreed-on contract approved by the trustees, Roy was having a change of heart and announced he was staying at Kansas (in front of a pep rally that filled the basketball AND the football stadium). Dean Smith directed Baddour to Larry Brown next, who would have killed for the job, but the Chancellor was from Nebraska and knew what a cheating sleeze Brown was at Kansas and nixed the offer. You can bet that was an awkward interview. After a search that was every bit as embarrassing as State's 2006 circus, Baddour ended up with Doherty.

Obviously, I'm not a fan of Baddour. But I wanted to point out that he is in no way responsible for Butch Davis. After his previous botched firings, a group of powerful alums, headed by Board of Trustees chair Bob Winston went out and acquired Butch. Baddour had nothing to do with it. And when the scandal blew up last summer, Baddour was powerless -- Winston was calling the shots (which is why Holden Thorpe rolled over and played dead too).

Baddour is a pretty inept AD ... but he doesn't deserve the blame for Butch.

PS Very close similarity between Baddour's limited role in the Butch Davis hire and Joe Alleva's limited role in the David Cutcliffe hire. Alleva wanted to hire Karl Dorrell, who had just been fired by UCLA. The popwerful alums on the search committee -- guided by Leo Hart and CJ Newsome -- stepped in and prevented that mistake, pushing for Cut instead.

Reilly
07-10-2011, 04:17 PM
... he thought he had an agreement to hire Frank Beamer from VPI (they weren't in the league then), but Beamer flew back to Blacksburg, squeezed a better deal out of the Hokies .....

... and if Baddour *thought* he had an *agreement* with Beamer, he was the only one ... as the entire rest of the world knew it was simply a negotiating ploy by Frank ... still, fits w/ Baddour's inept profile you wonderfully set out ....

CameronBornAndBred
07-10-2011, 05:13 PM
Even for web sources, they don't seem very complete--in my experience, I have found more instances of plagiarism by doing my own Google searches than by using plagiarism detection software.
Right...but you do know why don't you? How do you think the kid found the quote in the first place? If someone actually bothers to take the time to find a book in the library, and then transcribe the text into their own paper, maybe at least they will bother reading what they are stealing.

MCFinARL
07-11-2011, 10:44 AM
Right...but you do know why don't you? How do you think the kid found the quote in the first place? If someone actually bothers to take the time to find a book in the library, and then transcribe the text into their own paper, maybe at least they will bother reading what they are stealing.

Yes, of course I do know why--it just irritates me that the plagiarism detection programs apparently don't cover these sources that are so readily found by the students.

On your second point, you are probably right. But these days, a student who is actually willing to go to the library and locate a physical book is probably willing to make the effort to write his/her own paper anyway. Reserve readings are all posted online now, and even when you teach students (or, as is often necessary, require them) to search for sources in subscription databases available through the library rather than through Google, they won't follow up on any source that can't be accessed in full text online, right on their laptops.

CameronBornAndBred
07-11-2011, 11:45 AM
Yes, of course I do know why--it just irritates me that the plagiarism detection programs apparently don't cover these sources that are so readily found by the students.

On your second point, you are probably right. But these days, a student who is actually willing to go to the library and locate a physical book is probably willing to make the effort to write his/her own paper anyway. Reserve readings are all posted online now, and even when you teach students (or, as is often necessary, require them) to search for sources in subscription databases available through the library rather than through Google, they won't follow up on any source that can't be accessed in full text online, right on their laptops.
I think this copy and paste business is unfortunately very prevalant, and it starts in the lower education system. I proof read one of my stepson's papers and randomly Googled a few sentences. Almost the entirety of his paper had been copied word for word from other sources. There were no whole paragraphs, but stolen sentences arranged together. I had a long talk with him (and made him redo the whole thing on an entirely different subject) about it, and came to understand that he truly did not think he was cheating. He saw nothing wrong with what he was doing, and I'm assuming many of his classmates didn't either. He was a straight A student by the way. It was the last time that he ever did a paper that way, but I'm sure it happens all the time and the teachers do little on their end to prevent it. It's a sign of the ease and temptation of the internet, too. In my day, we actually did have to go to the library for our source material; nowadays everything a student needs can be easily highlighted in bulk.

hudlow
07-11-2011, 01:22 PM
No star players left behind.

Philawolf
07-11-2011, 02:38 PM
Someone at PackPride finished going through the whole paper.

LINK (http://www.redwolfsolutions.com/sam/Mcacheat_all.pdf)

SmartDevil
07-11-2011, 03:00 PM
I'd certainly throw the book at McAdoo. It might be the only book he has actual physical contact with!!

But I take this sort of thing very seriously....was head of the Judicial Board at Duke for two years a few decades ago.

fan345678
07-11-2011, 09:51 PM
... and if Baddour *thought* he had an *agreement* with Beamer, he was the only one ... as the entire rest of the world knew it was simply a negotiating ploy by Frank ... still, fits w/ Baddour's inept profile you wonderfully set out ....

Yep, VPI had just gotten the tight-fisted Jim Weaver as athletic director, and Beamer wanted a bunch more money, primarily for his assistants. Outside of sinking the women's basketball program, Weaver's done almost as good a job running that place as Beamer's done coaching...and Beamer's top assistants are all still there. As for UNC's assistant football coaches since then...

cspan37421
07-11-2011, 10:22 PM
I had a long talk with him (and made him redo the whole thing on an entirely different subject) about it, and came to understand that he truly did not think he was cheating. He saw nothing wrong with what he was doing, and I'm assuming many of his classmates didn't either.

That reminds me a lot of what David Pogue found out about young people's attitudes about stealing CDs/DVDs through illegal downloading. See:

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/the-generational-divide-in-copyright-morality/


note especially where he writes, "Recently, however, I spoke at a college." There was no degree of digital theft so bald and brazen that more than a couple out of hundreds thought it was wrong. This was 2007; not sure whether attitudes have changed since then. Enforcement has.

MCFinARL
07-12-2011, 09:46 AM
I think this copy and paste business is unfortunately very prevalant, and it starts in the lower education system. I proof read one of my stepson's papers and randomly Googled a few sentences. Almost the entirety of his paper had been copied word for word from other sources. There were no whole paragraphs, but stolen sentences arranged together. I had a long talk with him (and made him redo the whole thing on an entirely different subject) about it, and came to understand that he truly did not think he was cheating. He saw nothing wrong with what he was doing, and I'm assuming many of his classmates didn't either. .


That reminds me a lot of what David Pogue found out about young people's attitudes about stealing CDs/DVDs through illegal downloading. See:

http://pogue.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/12/20/the-generational-divide-in-copyright-morality/


note especially where he writes, "Recently, however, I spoke at a college." There was no degree of digital theft so bald and brazen that more than a couple out of hundreds thought it was wrong. This was 2007; not sure whether attitudes have changed since then. Enforcement has.

These posts get to the heart of the problem--not only is it easy to take stuff from the internet, but young people truly don't think it is wrong. For one thing, the idea of "intellectual property"--that the original artist/writer has an interest in his or her work that should be protected--doesn't really resonate with them. Every few semesters I will have a student choose to write about music downloading. Most focus on what they see as the gross unfairness of enforcement efforts that actually seek to fine downloaders; a couple of students have focused more on the impact on the music industry, concluding that the industry just needs to adapt and find new ways to make money. None has ever given much consideration to why downloaders feel it is okay to deprive performers and producers of their right to earn money from their work.

As for downloading snippets from sources and reconstructing them into a "new" paper, I see a couple of things going on. Again paralleling developments in music, sometimes students see this as an example of sampling, remixing, or making a mash-up. The "creative" input is in choosing the pieces and assembling them rather than in writing them. Also, echoing one of the points in the original article about McAdoo's paper, a surprisingly large number of students don't actually know that it is plagiarism to use exact language from a source without quotation marks if you have cited the source somewhere nearby, or to paraphrase material from a source by changing a few words or the sentence structure without citing the source.

On top of that, many students don't see what they can learn from writing their own work--the information is always out there on the internet; why not use it now, and again later when you need it? Many students see college as a consumer purchase--I pay my tuition and come to class (when I feel like it), you pour knowledge into my head and punch my ticket. The idea that they need to actively participate in this process by thinking, researching, and writing, and that they will lose something--be less well educated and less skilled-- by taking short cuts, doesn't seem to occur to them.

gumbomoop
07-12-2011, 10:39 AM
These posts get to the heart of the problem--not only is it easy to take stuff from the internet, but young people truly don't think it is wrong. For one thing, the idea of "intellectual property"--that the original artist/writer has an interest in his or her work that should be protected--doesn't really resonate with them. Every few semesters I will have a student choose to write about music downloading. Most focus on what they see as the gross unfairness of enforcement efforts that actually seek to fine downloaders; a couple of students have focused more on the impact on the music industry, concluding that the industry just needs to adapt and find new ways to make money. None has ever given much consideration to why downloaders feel it is okay to deprive performers and producers of their right to earn money from their work.

As for downloading snippets from sources and reconstructing them into a "new" paper, I see a couple of things going on. Again paralleling developments in music, sometimes students see this as an example of sampling, remixing, or making a mash-up. The "creative" input is in choosing the pieces and assembling them rather than in writing them. Also, echoing one of the points in the original article about McAdoo's paper, a surprisingly large number of students don't actually know that it is plagiarism to use exact language from a source without quotation marks if you have cited the source somewhere nearby, or to paraphrase material from a source by changing a few words or the sentence structure without citing the source.

On top of that, many students don't see what they can learn from writing their own work--the information is always out there on the internet; why not use it now, and again later when you need it? Many students see college as a consumer purchase--I pay my tuition and come to class (when I feel like it), you pour knowledge into my head and punch my ticket. The idea that they need to actively participate in this process by thinking, researching, and writing, and that they will lose something--be less well educated and less skilled-- by taking short cuts, doesn't seem to occur to them.

Excellent analysis here by MCFinARL. When I tag quote another poster, I tend to try to extract a few key points; but in this case I'm deliberately quoting the whole thing, in hopes that a few posters will read... the whole thing, every insightful word.

For M is, IMO, spot on in the analysis of how ignorant students are re basic academic/intellectual conventions. I commend, too, the trenchant description here of the near-ubiquitous student view - abetted, one fears, by some parents - of education as nothing more than consumption and credentials. Ironically, even if one sees learning as utilitarian only, one would think that a higher percentage of students would at least want to sharpen several crucial skills, such as reading, writing, thinking, listening, speaking, working well with others, etc.

Is it conceivable that such skills really are rapidly becoming irrelevant? I'm skeptical, but then I tend to be a late adopter/adapter, so perhaps we are on the very threshold of the brave new world of The Singularity.

oldnavy
07-12-2011, 12:45 PM
I find the numerous posts about the state of education in this country and the idea of passing off someone else's work as your own very interesting.

However, as far as the UNC football scandal goes, I see this as small potatoes. I do agree that it is strange that it went “undiscovered” if you will... but hey, if they are going to ignore agents, and gifts, and cars and parking fines being paid by tutors, why would anyone expect that they pay any attention to plagiarism?

I mean we are talking about an institution that openly and unashamedly accepts the Head Coach hiring a known cheater then providing no supervision of the program or the cheater and then feigning ignorance about all the wrong that has taken place right under his nose as model behavior.

So if they are cool with that, do we really think they give a rat’s butt about a kid cheating on a paper??

Using their own standards for accountability, all Marvin has to say is “I didn’t know” and he gets a pass.

BD80
07-13-2011, 09:33 AM
These posts get to the heart of the problem--not only is it easy to take stuff from the internet, but young people truly don't think it is wrong. For one thing, the idea of "intellectual property"--that the original artist/writer has an interest in his or her work that should be protected--doesn't really resonate with them. Every few semesters I will have a student choose to write about music downloading. ...

... many students don't see what they can learn from writing their own work--the information is always out there on the internet; why not use it now, and again later when you need it? Many students see college as a consumer purchase ...


... how ignorant students are re basic academic/intellectual conventions. I commend, too, the trenchant description here of the near-ubiquitous student view - abetted, one fears, by some parents - of education as nothing more than consumption and credentials. Ironically, even if one sees learning as utilitarian only, one would think that a higher percentage of students would at least want to sharpen several crucial skills, such as reading, writing, thinking, listening, speaking, working well with others, etc. ...

Great Doonesbury take:

http://www.doonesbury.com/strip/archive/2011/06/26#

http://cdn.svcs.c2.uclick.com/c2/d87d2960706b012ee3c400163e41dd5b

Frankly, Intellectual Property isn't particularly germain, copyright law only protects the EXPRESSION of ideas, not the underlying ideas. The digital "sharing" of music is another issue.

The paper at issue is clearly plagerism, but it reflects a certain amount of effort in compiling source material and understanding of the material to present the info in the form presented. I say it is about an eighth grade effort. I would be surprised to find that MacAdoo even did the "work" of finding and compiling the sources. If that effort is all that is required at unc, they best stop making fun of NCState!

It will be interesting to see to what extent unc will defend its academic honor, while legal issues flutter about and the football program is under attack.

JasonEvans
07-13-2011, 02:20 PM
I think it is wrong to blame students, who are really just children, for rampant plagiarism and IP theft. I believe that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Lets the children's laughter remind us how we used to be.

That's my view on this ;)

-Jason "jk" Evans

hudlow
07-13-2011, 03:56 PM
I think it is wrong to blame students, who are really just children, for rampant plagiarism and IP theft. I believe that children are our future. Teach them well and let them lead the way. Show them all the beauty they possess inside. Give them a sense of pride to make it easier. Lets the children's laughter remind us how we used to be.

That's my view on this ;)

-Jason "jk" Evans

checked for plagiarism...

CameronBornAndBred
07-13-2011, 06:30 PM
Nyaah Nyaah! http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/icon_tease.gif

Judge Orlando Hudson needed just a little over two hours to come to his conclusion in a Durham courtroom, denying an injunction and thus preventing McAdoo's return to the field while he sues the university and the NCAA to see his eligibility restored.
http://www.wralsportsfan.com/unc/story/9855583/

moonpie23
07-13-2011, 09:03 PM
marvin tweets that he might have to "spill the beans"....



man, this comedy just keeps entertaining...

CameronBornAndBred
07-13-2011, 09:15 PM
marvin tweets that he might have to "spill the beans"....



man, this comedy just keeps entertaining...
I LOVE unc tweets. They are better than television.

Newton_14
07-13-2011, 09:19 PM
marvin tweets that he might have to "spill the beans"....



man, this comedy just keeps entertaining...

Yep the full tweet was:


@anchormanaustin: I'm so heated right now...justice will provail..even if I have to spill the beans

Devil in the Blue Dress
07-13-2011, 09:35 PM
Yep the full tweet was:
One couldn't script a drama more entertaining than this one!

oldnavy
07-13-2011, 09:36 PM
Yep the full tweet was:

Spill them baby, spill them!!

Newton_14
07-13-2011, 09:48 PM
Spill them baby, spill them!!

Spill them indeed. Not sure if justice will provail or prevail, but either way it would be interesting. Would love to know just what is in those beans?

One irony is UNC officials arguing that this was absolutely 100% the work of McAdoo and not the tutor Wiley. Uh, UNC, you do realize that means the plagiarism was 100% on McAdoo, right?

The sane argument would have been: "Yes we know the paper was a fraud and McAdoo should be punished accordingly, but we feel suspension for one year should suffice, and he should be allowed to participate now that he served the full year suspension.

Trying to argue that he should not be punished because he did the paper all by himself and the paper was legit is moronic. Add to that the fact that the UNC Honor Court ruled that the paper was legit but was the work of the tutor, and you have a total head scratcher. I mean, come on, the paper was a copy and paste job word for word. How could that possibly be seen as legit by the powers that be??

gumbomoop
07-13-2011, 09:50 PM
Spill them baby, spill them!!

Friendly amendment: Spill, baby, spill.

roywhite
07-13-2011, 09:53 PM
Spill them indeed. Not sure if justice will provail or prevail, but either way it would be interesting. Would love to know just what is in those beans?

One irony is UNC officials arguing that this was absolutely 100% the work of McAdoo and not the tutor Wiley. Uh, UNC, you do realize that means the plagiarism was 100% on McAdoo, right?

The sane argument would have been: "Yes we know the paper was a fraud and McAdoo should be punished accordingly, but we feel suspension for one year should suffice, and he should be allowed to participate now that he served the full year suspension.

Trying to argue that he should not be punished because he did the paper all by himself and the paper was legit is moronic. Add to that the fact that the UNC Honor Court ruled that the paper was legit but was the work of the tutor, and you have a total head scratcher. I mean, come on, the paper was a copy and paste job word for word. How could that possibly be seen as legit by the powers that be??

These are people that tell us there was really no connection between John Blake's actions and his head coach and longtime friend, Butch Davis.

moonpie23
07-13-2011, 09:56 PM
over / under on when the hammer comes down on the unc athletic dept?


i say over a year....

uh_no
07-13-2011, 10:38 PM
over / under on when the hammer comes down on the unc athletic dept?


i say over a year....

depends on whether its a regular sized can of beans or a jumbo size