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View Full Version : Weird negativity about Paulus



Clipsfan
06-25-2007, 05:25 PM
I just read the article on the front page about Jordan (the Marist PG who lead the NCAA in assists the last couple years) and there is a dig at Paulus in there. Anyone know why that would be? He's specifically called out (despite the article talking about the NBA) as someone who is literally leap frogged on the fast break. It seems like a real cheap shot that is completely unwarranted.

pfrduke
06-25-2007, 05:54 PM
I just read the article on the front page about Jordan (the Marist PG who lead the NCAA in assists the last couple years) and there is a dig at Paulus in there. Anyone know why that would be? He's specifically called out (despite the article talking about the NBA) as someone who is literally leap frogged on the fast break. It seems like a real cheap shot that is completely unwarranted.

Deron Washington's leap all the way over Paulus' head this past season was pretty sick. While it says everything about Washington's athleticism and nothing about Paulus' athleticism (i.e., Washington could leapfrog both the most and least athletic 6-footers, as long as they're standing still trying to draw a charge), it was a pretty memorable play from last year. So maybe the reference was unnecessary, but if you're looking to describe someone getting leap-frogged on a fast break, it is an easy example to recall.

I have no idea, however, what getting leap-frogged on a fast break has to do with playing point guard in the NBA. I bet there are dozens of NBA players who could leap over Steve Nash, John Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Mike Bibby, etc., and last I checked, they are all pretty solid point guards.

Clipsfan
06-25-2007, 05:56 PM
Deron Washington's leap all the way over Paulus' head this past season was pretty sick. While it says everything about Washington's athleticism and nothing about Paulus' athleticism (i.e., Washington could leapfrog both the most and least athletic 6-footers, as long as they're standing still trying to draw a charge), it was a pretty memorable play from last year. So maybe the reference was unnecessary, but if you're looking to describe someone getting leap-frogged on a fast break, it is an easy example to recall.

I have no idea, however, what getting leap-frogged on a fast break has to do with playing point guard in the NBA. I bet there are dozens of NBA players who could leap over Steve Nash, John Stockton, Isaiah Thomas, Mike Bibby, etc., and last I checked, they are all pretty solid point guards.

You're right, I forgot about that one (I tend to focus on the positives!) I still think that it was an unnecessary comment, given the context, and as you pointed out doesn't mean anything.

mgtr
06-25-2007, 06:13 PM
There has also been some negativity on this board about Paulus. I think he will be fine, very fine actually. I agree that the Washington jump, while a nice highlight, says little at all about GP.

RockChalk
06-26-2007, 07:14 AM
I have seen ALOT of negativity towards Paulus. I think most of it stems from the fact that he was so highly-thought of as a recruit......football too. This may sound bad but he is that stereotype Duke player that people don't like......intelligent, white, overly confident etc.

He kind of fits the mold of a Hurley, Wojo and Laettner. They used to have that "90210" thing about them that people didn't like. I don't think this is what Seth Davis is talking about in the article but I thought maybe this viewpoint might help.

Just for the record, I enjoy watching Paulus......tough, hardworker, smart kid. Wojo was one of my favorite players of all time.

TillyGalore
06-26-2007, 08:05 AM
Like many here I was disappointed with Greg's performance the beginning of the season and had to keep reminding myself he was injured. I think Greg at 100% is going to be the amazing point guard we are all expecting/hoping to see.

As I mentioned on the thread for Gerald Henderson, I am really looking forward to the season!!!

Carlos
06-26-2007, 08:12 AM
I'm very comfortable with Paulus as our point guard. He has some liabilities - but then so did JWill and Duhon. On my worry list for next season his play is slightly less of a concern for me than having K go up in spontaneous combustion on the sidelines.

The Gordog
06-26-2007, 09:44 AM
I have seen ALOT of negativity towards Paulus. I think most of it stems from the fact that he was so highly-thought of as a recruit......football too. This may sound bad but he is that stereotype Duke player that people don't like......intelligent, white, overly confident etc.

He kind of fits the mold of a Hurley, Wojo and Laettner. They used to have that "90210" thing about them that people didn't like. I don't think this is what Seth Davis is talking about in the article but I thought maybe this viewpoint might help.

Just for the record, I enjoy watching Paulus......tough, hardworker, smart kid. Wojo was one of my favorite players of all time.

I am not picking on you, RockChalk, but I have seen that phrase "overly confident" before and so I'm wondering what the board thinks makes someone overly confident. Is it the perception that their skills don't measure up to their own opinion of themselves? Why is it that if a black player has this quality it's street toughness, but if it's a white player it's seen differently?

dukerev
06-26-2007, 09:53 AM
Seems as I recall JJ predicting that Greg Paulus would become the next most hated Blue Devil. I'm guessing that JJ did not see Greg becoming the most hated Blue Devil...by Blue Devil fans, though. I'm hoping that this is the year that Greg makes "the leap" and becomes beloved by Blue Devil fans, but maintains that hatred that everybody else has for him. If he's playing well, I'm betting that Greg and the team won't really care that much if Terp and Heel fans call him names.

Clipsfan
06-26-2007, 11:38 AM
Seems as I recall JJ predicting that Greg Paulus would become the next most hated Blue Devil. I'm guessing that JJ did not see Greg becoming the most hated Blue Devil...by Blue Devil fans, though. I'm hoping that this is the year that Greg makes "the leap" and becomes beloved by Blue Devil fans, but maintains that hatred that everybody else has for him. If he's playing well, I'm betting that Greg and the team won't really care that much if Terp and Heel fans call him names.

You're right, JJ did say that, and I really don't understand the level of disdain that many purported fans have for Paulus. I may be looking at him through blinders, but I love the toughness that he brings and am very happy to have him running the point. I'll agree that he isn't perfect, but it was hard to judge him fairly last year, and for some reason people are discounting the last 15 games when he played well rather than the first 17-18 where he was suffering more from the injury. He should be a lot of fun to watch this year, especially if we run more and he gets to distribute on the go.

mapei
06-26-2007, 01:33 PM
Duke has had so many outstanding guards over the years that it is pretty easy to be a good if not great player, and still fall short of people's hopes. I think that is what has happened to Greg. We had a run there with Avery, JWill and Duhon that was pretty darn impressive and hard to live up to.

Clipsfan
06-26-2007, 06:22 PM
Duke has had so many outstanding guards over the years that it is pretty easy to be a good if not great player, and still fall short of people's hopes. I think that is what has happened to Greg. We had a run there with Avery, JWill and Duhon that was pretty darn impressive and hard to live up to.

And what people forget is that everyone trashed the above guards at various times. Jason struggled as Duke started off the season with 2 losses for the first time in who knows how long. Duhon was still getting ripped on this board even as late as the start of his senior year. I forget about Avery, but I'm sure people said lots of negative things (I remember plenty questioning his academics). I think that it's almost a rite of passage any PG has to go through.

RockChalk
06-26-2007, 06:24 PM
I am not picking on you, RockChalk, but I have seen that phrase "overly confident" before and so I'm wondering what the board thinks makes someone overly confident. Is it the perception that their skills don't measure up to their own opinion of themselves? Why is it that if a black player has this quality it's street toughness, but if it's a white player it's seen differently?

This is a fascinating thread by the way. I need to remind everyone that I enjoy watching Paulus so I don't get accused of anything by Duke fans. I am just stating what I have noticed from fans of other teams.

When I talk about Paulus then I can substitute these players and I think people label them the same way:
Quin Snyder
Bobby Hurley
Steve Wojo
Chris Duhon
Greg Paulus

They all have very similiar traits......not only are they PG's but they were considered the leader. So if a Duke-hater is going to talk smack on Duke, they are going to go after their emotional leader. They may not be Duke's best player at the time but they are the ones who put themselves out there so much that they are open to criticism.


.....just my thoughts.

RockChalk
06-26-2007, 06:26 PM
And what people forget is that everyone trashed the above guards at various times. Jason struggled as Duke started off the season with 2 losses for the first time in who knows how long. Duhon was still getting ripped on this board even as late as the start of his senior year. I forget about Avery, but I'm sure people said lots of negative things (I remember plenty questioning his academics). I think that it's almost a rite of passage any PG has to go through.


I think Avery got a pass because he wasn't much of an emotional player. From what I remember of him, he was more concerned about his "career".....but I could be wrong.

JBDuke
06-26-2007, 06:37 PM
This is a fascinating thread by the way. I need to remind everyone that I enjoy watching Paulus so I don't get accused of anything by Duke fans. I am just stating what I have noticed from fans of other teams.

When I talk about Paulus then I can substitute these players and I think people label them the same way:
Quin Snyder
Bobby Hurley
Steve Wojo
Chris Duhon
Greg Paulus

They all have very similiar traits......not only are they PG's but they were considered the leader. So if a Duke-hater is going to talk smack on Duke, they are going to go after their emotional leader. They may not be Duke's best player at the time but they are the ones who put themselves out there so much that they are open to criticism.


.....just my thoughts.

Good point, RockChalk, and nice to hear the perspective from a relatively neutral observer.

I think the Duke PG, whoever it is, gets an awful lot of face time. They usually bring the ball up, and they usually are pressuring the other team's PG, so as much as Duke is on TV, the starting Blue Devil PG is going to be overexposed. As such, unless you have a lightning rod like JJ or Christian around, the Duke PG is the most visible target for the vitriol of the envious.

dukerev
06-26-2007, 07:06 PM
Excellent points Mr. Duke and RockChalk. The Duke PG gets huge exposure, especially with all of the tv games. To add a Vitale-ism to the mix, it is much like being a Notre Dame QB (which as we know from Mr. Vitale telling us at least 13 times a half...take another drink)...Greg Paulus could have been the ND QB.

Classof06
06-27-2007, 03:16 PM
You're right, JJ did say that, and I really don't understand the level of disdain that many purported fans have for Paulus. I may be looking at him through blinders, but I love the toughness that he brings and am very happy to have him running the point. I'll agree that he isn't perfect, but it was hard to judge him fairly last year, and for some reason people are discounting the last 15 games when he played well rather than the first 17-18 where he was suffering more from the injury. He should be a lot of fun to watch this year, especially if we run more and he gets to distribute on the go.

For the millionth time, objectively pointing out that Paulus played terribly the first half of the season, doesn't make those individuals any less of a Duke fan. Personally speaking, I've repeatedly pointed out the fact that Paulus was our best player the last 15 games of the season, and I loved the way he played. But with respect to this coming season, I feel like some of you guys call other fans "Paulus-bashers" because they're not willing to give Paulus the same benefit of the doubt that you are. Greg has to prove he can do it for a whole season. Some of you are already convinced that he can; I need to see it first.

I think Duke fans who point out the troubles Greg had early on get more annoyed by the opposite extreme: Duke fans who, foot injury or not, completely turn a blind eye to the times when he's been downright awful. I know nobody is going to believe this, but I actually like Paulus and I like watching him play. Not only that, I truly truly hope he comes back this year with a vengeance. BUT, if he doesn't play at the level we need him to, then I have absolutely no regrets seeing him ride the pine. If that makes me less of a Duke fan, then sorry...

mgtr
06-27-2007, 03:36 PM
For the millionth time, objectively pointing out that Paulus played terribly the first half of the season, doesn't make those individuals any less of a Duke fan. Personally speaking, I've repeatedly pointed out the fact that Paulus was our best player the last 15 games of the season, and I loved the way he played. Now he needs to do it for a whole season.

I think the people who point out the troubles Greg had early on get more annoyed by the opposite extreme: Duke fans who, foot injury or not, completely turn a blind eye to the times when he's been downright awful. I know nobody is going to believe this, but I actually like Paulus and I like watching him play. My thing is, if he doesn't play at the level we need him to consistently, then I have absoluetly no regrets seeing him ride the pine. If that makes me less of a Duke fan, then sorry...

This has to be one of best, well balanced, thoughtful posts about Greg Paulus. I expect great things from GP over the next two years.

RockChalk
06-27-2007, 06:23 PM
That's cool and all to say that Paulus should be benched if he can't perform to your expectations but my question is who you gonna insert that is better for the team than him? He plays good defense and plays hard. I don't see too many PG's on the Duke bench that could perform better.

Just don't EXPECT him to be Bobby Hurley and you should be okay. I think Duke fans should worry more about their inside game than their guards.

arnie
06-27-2007, 07:14 PM
I take issue with the statement that Paulus plays good defense - that is not his strength. I also believe he is much more effective 2-guard anyway, hopefully, Nolan can play a lot of point (which is where he will need to be in the NBA).

I also believe losing McRoberts will hurt a great deal on defense and don't undertand all the McRoberts bashing on this board. He blocked a lot of shots and intimidated many others. Unless Zoubek can play through foul trouble, we will not have a defensive presence in the post for the 1st time in quite a few years.

Our strength should be in our large group of 6'4" - 6'8" players that can be somewhat interchanged. It will be a fun season to watch everyone develop.

SilkyJ
06-27-2007, 09:02 PM
He plays good defense and plays hard. I don't see too many PG's on the Duke bench that could perform better.



I take issue with the statement that Paulus plays good defense - that is not his strength. I also believe he is much more effective 2-guard anyway, hopefully, Nolan can play a lot of point (which is where he will need to be in the NBA).

Yea, I'm not sure what you were watching Rock Chalk, but Paulus' D was pretty bad. I think (hope) that it was due to that injury, but he clearly was unable to guard opposing PGs, and especially unable to stop penetration.

You are right that we didnt have any other PGs who could do better (we dont have any other PGs, besides Jordan Davidson) but I agree with Firealleva that Nolan can come in and contribute right away...not necessarily at Paulus' level, but certainly at a decent level...and Firealleva is also right that Nolan will have to become a true PG after being a combo guard in HS, if he wants to make the league.

ojaidave
06-27-2007, 09:36 PM
And what people forget is that everyone trashed the above guards at various times. Jason struggled as Duke started off the season with 2 losses for the first time in who knows how long. Duhon was still getting ripped on this board even as late as the start of his senior year. I forget about Avery, but I'm sure people said lots of negative things (I remember plenty questioning his academics). I think that it's almost a rite of passage any PG has to go through.

The perception of Avery his freshman year was that he was a turnover waiting to happen.

Of all the defections we've had since that fateful year, Avery's is still the one that had me scratching my head the most, Shav being a close second.

Dave

jimsumner
06-27-2007, 09:45 PM
"Of all the defections we've had since that fateful year, Avery's is still the one that had me scratching my head the most."

Family needed money and Will wasn't exactly enamored with classwork.

ojaidave
06-27-2007, 10:14 PM
"Of all the defections we've had since that fateful year, Avery's is still the one that had me scratching my head the most."

Family needed money and Will wasn't exactly enamored with classwork.

You're right Jim, and looking back I misremembered quite a bit about Avery. Turns out he was drafted 14th that year, which isn't nearly as bad as I thought. For a guy with his shooting range and quickness, why didn't he stick in the NBA?

Dave

thebur
06-28-2007, 09:58 AM
You're right Jim, and looking back I misremembered quite a bit about Avery. Turns out he was drafted 14th that year, which isn't nearly as bad as I thought. For a guy with his shooting range and quickness, why didn't he stick in the NBA?


I think Avery was quick, but he did not have the explosiveness or lift of a guy like Jason Williams. He had trouble getting his own shot in the NBA, which he did not have any trouble with a Duke, and was not able to run the offense for KG.

Speaking of the 1999 draft, check out these draft busts from the first round that year...

11. Trajan Langdon (I love him, and he had one 30 pt game, but he was a bust)
12. Aleksandar Radojević (Not in League)
14. William Avery (Not in League)
15. Frederich Weis (dunked on by VC, never saw a minute in the league)
17. Cal Bowdler (Not in league)
19. Quincy Lewis (Not in League)
25. Tim James (Not in League)
26. Vonteego Cummings (Not in League)
29. Leon Smith (Lost Mind, Not in League)

That is nine guys who are not in the league from that year's first round. Just under one third of the total first round selections.

Meanwhile, there were serviceable players in the second round like Michael Ruffin (32), Calvin Booth (35), Gordon Giricek (40), Francisco Elson (41) and one of the five best players in the draft was the 57th pick, one Manu Ginóbili.

Clipsfan
06-28-2007, 12:12 PM
I think Avery was quick, but he did not have the explosiveness or lift of a guy like Jason Williams. He had trouble getting his own shot in the NBA, which he did not have any trouble with a Duke, and was not able to run the offense for KG.

Speaking of the 1999 draft, check out these draft busts from the first round that year...

11. Trajan Langdon (I love him, and he had one 30 pt game, but he was a bust)
12. Aleksandar Radojević (Not in League)
14. William Avery (Not in League)
15. Frederich Weis (dunked on by VC, never saw a minute in the league)
17. Cal Bowdler (Not in league)
19. Quincy Lewis (Not in League)
25. Tim James (Not in League)
26. Vonteego Cummings (Not in League)
29. Leon Smith (Lost Mind, Not in League)

That is nine guys who are not in the league from that year's first round. Just under one third of the total first round selections.

Meanwhile, there were serviceable players in the second round like Michael Ruffin (32), Calvin Booth (35), Gordon Giricek (40), Francisco Elson (41) and one of the five best players in the draft was the 57th pick, one Manu Ginóbili.

It is true that a lot of the players aren't still in the league, but I don't find that all that surprising 8 years later. I think that it is more significant that most of those players didn't make it past their first contract.

Classof06
06-28-2007, 01:01 PM
That's cool and all to say that Paulus should be benched if he can't perform to your expectations but my question is who you gonna insert that is better for the team than him? He plays good defense and plays hard. I don't see too many PG's on the Duke bench that could perform better.

Just don't EXPECT him to be Bobby Hurley and you should be okay. I think Duke fans should worry more about their inside game than their guards.

I don't think it's just my expectations. I don't think Greg Paulus has lived up to the expectations of a lot of Duke fans, and that's not all his fault. That being said, I don't think anyone, including myself, expects him to be Bobby Hurley. That's just being unrealistic.

RockChalk
06-28-2007, 05:26 PM
I don't think it's just my expectations. I don't think Greg Paulus has lived up to the expectations of a lot of Duke fans, and that's not all his fault. That being said, I don't think anyone, including myself, expects him to be Bobby Hurley. That's just being unrealistic.


I was exagerrating a little.

The biggest problem people at KU have is they EXPECT to win every game and then are devastated when we don't. Expectations have been our biggest downfall in the last 15 years or so.

Clipsfan
06-28-2007, 06:06 PM
I was exagerrating a little.

The biggest problem people at KU have is they EXPECT to win every game and then are devastated when we don't. Expectations have been our biggest downfall in the last 15 years or so.

KU fans don't sound that different from many Duke fans in that respect.

phaedrus
06-28-2007, 06:52 PM
Well, except KU fans are a little misguided. After all, there's no way KU can actually win every game.

RockChalk
06-28-2007, 08:00 PM
Well, except KU fans are a little misguided. After all, there's no way KU can actually win every game.

Although it is much easier to do in the Big12.......;)


and we did come somewhat close in '97

mgtr
06-28-2007, 08:01 PM
Good One!!!!!

RockChalk
06-28-2007, 08:07 PM
Good One!!!!!

I may be a KU fan but I'm not stupid.......There is a reason most announcers talk about the ACC more than most conferences......they are pretty good.