Nolan Smith Jersey Retirement?

[DukeWarhead]

At what point did it become clear that both Kyle and Nolan will have thier jersies retired? I know most people were talking about Kyle's when he chose to return at the end of last season. I think Nolan's surge in the last five games make it a forgone conclusion. Even in case of some monumental meltdown (shudder that the thought) at the end of this season, aren't both of these guys names going to be hanging in the rafters for sure? Or am I off base. I don't even know where Nolan ranks stat wise with everything, but I see Kyle and Nolan as a package deal - can't see one jersey up there and not the others next to it.
Am I wrong?

[loran16]

We've talked about this before and the answer is: No it's not clear.

There is a question about the traditional requirements (National Honors + Graduation) and whether either of them qualify....

If Nolan is First team All American, then he would qualify for sure. Kyle, maybe not. (depends upon whether you count Tourny MVP: I would not.)

It is unclear whether either of their jerseys will be retired.

[uh_no]

Nolans very weak first two years certainly hurts his case, he might even need a npoy honore (which he is now a top canidate for)

Kyle being one of the top stats guy in duke history probably has more leeway seeing, and can probably get away with aa honors

Honestly I wouldn tbe suprised if either of them do or don't get retired. Its far from clear at this point

[Billy Dat]

Nolans very weak first two years certainly hurts his case, he might even need a npoy honore (which he is now a top canidate for)

Kyle being one of the top stats guy in duke history probably has more leeway seeing, and can probably get away with aa honors

Honestly I wouldn tbe suprised if either of them do or don't get retired. Its far from clear at this point

Crazy to think we may have a National Title team with no laundry in the rafters. I guess that's why they were the definition of team. Both guys are pretty close, a second national title wouldn't hurt their chances ;^)

[wilson]

I am usually very content to just let these things happen as they may, and in most cases, I think it's very clear whether or not someone's jersey deserves retirement.
However, I will be supremely disappointed if Nolan and Kyle don't both make it to the rafters. Having led the team and the program the way that they have, and having put up the stats they both have, I think they're both easily deserving of the honor. Kyle will finish in the top 10 of myriad statistical categories all-time at Duke, and the top 5 of several. Coupled with his Final Four MOP from last season, I think that makes his candidacy a pretty safe bet.
Nolan's candidacy, to me, rests more on some intangibles. I'm well aware of the supposed "unofficial requirements" for retirement, but I would tend to agree with another poster's comments in another thread that Coach K's recent remarks that Nolan has been perhaps the best ambassador the program has ever had, should count for a lot. If ever there has been a player who merits jersey retirement despite falling a smidge short of some supposed numerical requirements, then I think that person is Nolan Smith. To retire his jersey would, in my eyes, be a great way to celebrate the strong notion that the Duke program is about much more than just numbers, and that basketball excellence often can't be quantified. As Nolan continues to power his way through a stellar senior season, he makes the question less and less difficult, but I really think he deserves it.
I don't think I'll ever really be able to think about Kyle independent of Nolan, or Nolan without Kyle, and their tenure at Duke has been a terrific example for all of us, and for all future Blue Devils who will come down the pike. For that reason, I dearly hope to see the two of them shoulder-to-shoulder in the rafters of Cameron in perpetuity.

[mkline09]

I know the orignial question was about Nolan but the doubt about Singler has me confused. I've seen quite a few of the players who have jersey's retired play. Many of them are from K's era. I have to say without a doubt in my mind, required criteria or not, Singler has to be among them. His stats speak volumes but what he has brought since day one on campus is immeasurable. I see him on par with many of those players. The criteria needs to change I think. Even if he isn't first team all-american, even if he isn't NPOY his body of work and what he has meant to the program (not just the individual teams) goes above national awards. So I am 100 percent behind Singler's #12 being raised to the rafters.

As for Nolan I can see the need for national awards given the fact his first two seasons were not spectacular. They weren't god awful but they weren't consistantly great.

[DukeWarhead]

I am usually very content to just let these things happen as they may, and in most cases, I think it's very clear whether or not someone's jersey deserves retirement.
However, I will be supremely disappointed if Nolan and Kyle don't both make it to the rafters. Having led the team and the program the way that they have, and having put up the stats they both have, I think they're both easily deserving of the honor. Kyle will finish in the top 10 of myriad statistical categories all-time at Duke, and the top 5 of several. Coupled with his Final Four MOP from last season, I think that makes his candidacy a pretty safe bet.
Nolan's candidacy, to me, rests more on some intangibles. I'm well aware of the supposed "unofficial requirements" for retirement, but I would tend to agree with another poster's comments in another thread that Coach K's recent remarks that Nolan has been perhaps the best ambassador the program has ever had, should count for a lot. If ever there has been a player who merits jersey retirement despite falling a smidge short of some supposed numerical requirements, then I think that person is Nolan Smith. To retire his jersey would, in my eyes, be a great way to celebrate the strong notion that the Duke program is about much more than just numbers, and that basketball excellence often can't be quantified. As Nolan continues to power his way through a stellar senior season, he makes the question less and less difficult, but I really think he deserves it.
I don't think I'll ever really be able to think about Kyle independent of Nolan, or Nolan without Kyle, and their tenure at Duke has been a terrific example for all of us, and for all future Blue Devils who will come down the pike. For that reason, I dearly hope to see the two of them shoulder-to-shoulder in the rafters of Cameron in perpetuity.

You said it much better than I.... thanks.
Much like JJ and Shelden - I can't think of one without the other - Kyle and Nolan will always be thought of a a dynamic Duke Duo rather than a single player - and I think they would prefer it that way... I think.

[superdave]

We've discussed this before. Anything short of NPOY and I doubt Nolan's jersey will go up.

[pamtar]

IMHO, retire both.

Kyle's stats alone should do it. If I'm not mistaken he should be ahead of another jersey in at least three categories by years end. Plus, he could quite possible be NDPOY as well.

If Nolan is NPOY there is no question.
A Final Four, plus leading the league in scoring and assists, should do the trick as well. In this case he would almost surely be ACCPOY and a national champion. Don't think there should be much argument.

And while they have the ladder out, throw Scheyer up there as well!

[JohnGalt]

Nolan's candidacy, to me, rests more on some intangibles. I'm well aware of the supposed "unofficial requirements" for retirement, but I would tend to agree with another poster's comments in another thread that Coach K's recent remarks that Nolan has been perhaps the best ambassador the program has ever had, should count for a lot. If ever there has been a player who merits jersey retirement despite falling a smidge short of some supposed numerical requirements, then I think that person is Nolan Smith. To retire his jersey would, in my eyes, be a great way to celebrate the strong notion that the Duke program is about much more than just numbers, and that basketball excellence often can't be quantified. As Nolan continues to power his way through a stellar senior season, he makes the question less and less difficult, but I really think he deserves it.

While I strongly agree with what you've written above, I must say that that sentiment is exactly what most debates centered around when arguing for JS's inclusion in the rafters, albeit, with a slightly different slant on the "intangibles" angle. The court sense and all-around court savvy not collected in the box score should be largely taken into account when comparing JS to the all-time Duke greats, it was argued. Alas, it appears, it was not.

Unfortunately - and justly or unjustly - I think the same will apply for Nolan. I think ultimately and regrettably, he won't get in.

[wilson]

We've discussed this before. Anything short of NPOY and I doubt Nolan's jersey will go up.Under ordinary circumstances, I think you're right, but I really think there's just something telling about what K has said about Nolan's ambassadorship for the program, and the degree to which that has coincided with the program's "rebound" in the past few seasons (I hesitate to even use the word "rebound," because the notion that we'd somehow fallen on hard times is pretty silly to me).
It will be very interesting to see how it shakes out.

[Matches]

I don't think Nolan will win NPOY as I believe the media has already annointed Jimmer. I do expect Nolan to be ACCPOY and 1st team AA.

Clearly his stats aren't mindblowing because of an average 1st two seasons, but his numbers this year are sensational, and official or unofficial, a performance like last night's goes a long way. If he finishes the year the way he's played it so far, I think his jersey should go up.

Singler is IMO a lock. He's going to be way up there historically in various stat categories, and was MOP of the Final Four.

[jacone21]

It's also important to note that it doesn't come down to choosing between retiring a number and honoring a player. Just because a jersey is not retired doesn't mean that a player isn't highly honored at Duke. Nolan's and Kyle's and Jon's faces will always be a part of that National Championship display. Nolan's 2010-2011 ACC POY :cool: will always be displayed in that trophy case. It's not all or nothing.

Jersey retirement is and always should be a really big deal.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I don't think Nolan will win NPOY as I believe the media has already annointed Jimmer. I do expect Nolan to be ACCPOY and 1st team AA.

I loved this quote that I read this morning.


Duke thrust itself back into the NCAA championship picture thanks to the performance and leadership of a senior who can longer be ignored. There may be college basketball players just as good as Nolan Smith.
But you won’t find any who are better.


http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/news?slug=jn-duke021011

[Kedsy]

Nolan's candidacy, to me, rests more on some intangibles. I'm well aware of the supposed "unofficial requirements" for retirement, but I would tend to agree with another poster's comments in another thread that Coach K's recent remarks that Nolan has been perhaps the best ambassador the program has ever had, should count for a lot. If ever there has been a player who merits jersey retirement despite falling a smidge short of some supposed numerical requirements, then I think that person is Nolan Smith. To retire his jersey would, in my eyes, be a great way to celebrate the strong notion that the Duke program is about much more than just numbers, and that basketball excellence often can't be quantified. As Nolan continues to power his way through a stellar senior season, he makes the question less and less difficult, but I really think he deserves it.

Well said.

Until I read those quotes from K (about Nolan being the best something the program's ever had -- I don't remember the exact words, but K identified two or three somethings), and then watched last night's game, I didn't think Nolan had a chance. But if he wins ACC POY and leads the conference in both scoring and assists (something that's never been done before), then combining those with the championship and the "best somethings," I think Nolan might have a realistic chance.

I don't think Kyle's a lock, but he's certainly more likely than not. And the two seniors do sort of go together, like JJ and Shelden.

[mac46]

I could definitely be wrong about this, but I always thought NPOY or NDPOY was a requirement to get your jersey retired in modern times?

[hurley1]

THE BEST basketball player in the country. NOBODY IS BETTER.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

While there are NO official requirements for jersey retirements or automatic qualifiers for jersey retirements, a NPOY award has pretty always much been the "gold standard". The NDPOY only became a qualifier for Shelden Williams - it wasn't enough for Billy King or Tommy Amaker who both won the award (Shane Battier won three of the things!). I hope that Nolan wins at least one of the NPOY awards this year, that they get split among the several players - Jimmer, the frosh big man at Ohio State and Nolan - that would serve everyone's interest and "spread the wealth" so to speak.

I am now firmly on board with the "raise the banner for Nolan" campaign! He's earned it these last two years and with the four year body of work on and off the court. Kyle too.

Now, let's get on with the season and finish what we've started! And don't forget to circle February 20th on your calendar. It's my mom's birthday, after all!

[Troublemaker]

Agree with wilson and Kedsy. Nolan does and should have a chance for jersey retirement even without an NPOY award (the race for which currently stands 1. Jimmer 2. Sullinger 3. Nolan, imo) because Nolan has meant so much to this program off-the-court.

Also, one of the core principles of Duke's program is that every player "runs their own race." Nolan started the race slow (freshman and sophomore years) but if he speeds up and eventually crosses the finish line at the same time as other players who have retired jerseys, how can you deny him? I have a hard time believing that Nolan is any less of a player than Shelden, JJ, or Kyle.

[gwlaw99]

At what point did it become clear that both Kyle and Nolan will have thier jersies retired? I know most people were talking about Kyle's when he chose to return at the end of last season. I think Nolan's surge in the last five games make it a forgone conclusion. Even in case of some monumental meltdown (shudder that the thought) at the end of this season, aren't both of these guys names going to be hanging in the rafters for sure? Or am I off base. I don't even know where Nolan ranks stat wise with everything, but I see Kyle and Nolan as a package deal - can't see one jersey up there and not the others next to it.
Am I wrong?

Personally, I think it should be. There is something to be said about the example he has set for all future Duke players. He went through a lot of adversity his first two years including the concussion. He never gave up (I'm taking to you Larry Drew), and made himself into one of the top players in the country through sheer hard work and determination. He added new dimentions to his game every year never resting on his laurels. When Freshman walk into Cameron for the first time, his Jersey should be an inspiration and that is why I want to see in hanging on the rafters.

[SCMatt33]

I think Kyle is a really tough case. His jersey retirement kind of reminds me of HOF talk for Rafael Palmiero last month (minus the steroids of course). He has been a beacon of consistency for a long career, but he was never the guy on the team. He was overshadowed by Gerald his first two years, Jon last year, and Nolan this year. You could say the same thing about Shelden because of JJ, but Shelden always was the guy when it came to defense, which you can't say about Kyle. Having won a title and a FFMOP, I think it should happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up more like Mark Alarie when it comes to Jersey retirement.

Nolan I think is a little more concrete. If he wins an NPOY award, he will probably get it. If not, I don't think he will. There is a somewhat gray area with a 1st team AA and no NPOY (which is probably the most likely scenario right now), but I don't know which way it would go.

To be perfectly honest, I feel like this will comedown to how sentimental Coach K feels about both of them, and I would be surprised at any combination of retirement or lack thereof for both of them.

[JohnGalt]

I hope that Nolan wins at least one of the NPOY awards this year, that they get split among the several players - Jimmer, the frosh big man at Ohio State and Nolan - that would serve everyone's interest and "spread the wealth" so to speak.



Agree with wilson and Kedsy. Nolan does and should have a chance for jersey retirement even without an NPOY award (the race for which currently stands 1. Jimmer 2. Sullinger 3. Nolan, imo) because Nolan has meant so much to this program off-the-court.

Not to get too far off topic, but it really is an interesting NPOY race this year. The candidates are as diverse as they are deserving. You have (in no particular order):

(a) Sullinger - Super-hyped frosh who, thus far, has exceeded even those lofty expectations. As a result, he has his team playing as well as anyone in the country, and a lot of people would probably argue they've already exceeded team expectations as well. Sort of like the "Real Life Harrison Barnes." Teehee. Sorry. Couldn't help it.

(b) Jimmer - Senior playmaker at a smaller school that has simply improved incrementally each year. Seriously, look at his ppg...freshman-7, soph-16, junior-22, and senior-27. And all of his other stats have either risen or remained healthy in the process. Classic example of a kid who blossomed in college, after an under-the-radar, unnoticed high school career.

(c) Our Nolan - Big time recruit from big time program who has seen his play, confidence, and - as a result - PT skyrocket over the last two years. Wasn't there a time between his frosh and soph seasons where he considered transferring with Dawkins? Wow! What a story! So now he's the senior leader who, after helping win the NC as a junior, leads the squad over unc IN Cameron to the tune of a career high 34pts!

The various NPOY-awarding parties have their work cut out for them this year...

(BTW, out of no bias on my own, Nolan gets my vote. :cool: )

[superdave]

I think Kyle is a really tough case. His jersey retirement kind of reminds me of HOF talk for Rafael Palmiero last month (minus the steroids of course). He has been a beacon of consistency for a long career, but he was never the guy on the team. He was overshadowed by Gerald his first two years, Jon last year, and Nolan this year. You could say the same thing about Shelden because of JJ, but Shelden always was the guy when it came to defense, which you can't say about Kyle. Having won a title and a FFMOP, I think it should happen, but I wouldn't be surprised if he ends up more like Mark Alarie when it comes to Jersey retirement.



Kyle was "the guy" last year down the stretch. ACC tourney MVP and Final Four MOP. National Champion. Based on stats, his case is very good too - likely top 5 scorer all-time.

I will be interested in watching how Kyle plays for the next two months. If he continues this year's 18 and 6, he'll be an all-time great Dukie worthy of jersey retirement. If he replicates last year's Feb-April, he'll be immortalized and lionized.

Super "Lotta ball left to be played" Dave

[wilson]

While I strongly agree with what you've written above, I must say that that sentiment is exactly what most debates centered around when arguing for JS's inclusion in the rafters, albeit, with a slightly different slant on the "intangibles" angle. The court sense and all-around court savvy not collected in the box score should be largely taken into account when comparing JS to the all-time Duke greats, it was argued. Alas, it appears, it was not.

Unfortunately - and justly or unjustly - I think the same will apply for Nolan. I think ultimately and regrettably, he won't get in.With regard to strictly on-the-court matters, I think you're right. But I still don't think the two situations are quite the same. I don't ever recall hearing K saying for Scheyer what he's said about Nolan, that "he's touched, in a very personal way, more people than anyone who's played here." [emphasis added by me]
That is very high and very rare praise coming from K, in that a) he's not ever given to effusive hyperbole like that, especially when you consider the continually excellent players who've come through the program in his three decades, and b) the idea of meaningful personal relationships is one of the principles at the very core of K's overall philosophy.

[superdave]

While there are NO official requirements for jersey retirements or automatic qualifiers for jersey retirements, a NPOY award has pretty always much been the "gold standard". The NDPOY only became a qualifier for Shelden Williams - it wasn't enough for Billy King or Tommy Amaker who both won the award (Shane Battier won three of the things!). I hope that Nolan wins at least one of the NPOY awards this year, that they get split among the several players - Jimmer, the frosh big man at Ohio State and Nolan - that would serve everyone's interest and "spread the wealth" so to speak.



Well said.
Until I read those quotes from K (about Nolan being the best something the program's ever had -- I don't remember the exact words, but K identified two or three somethings), and then watched last night's game, I didn't think Nolan had a chance. But if he wins ACC POY and leads the conference in both scoring and assists (something that's never been done before), then combining those with the championship and the "best somethings," I think Nolan might have a realistic chance.



Under ordinary circumstances, I think you're right, but I really think there's just something telling about what K has said about Nolan's ambassadorship for the program, and the degree to which that has coincided with the program's "rebound" in the past few seasons (I hesitate to even use the word "rebound," because the notion that we'd somehow fallen on hard times is pretty silly to me).
It will be very interesting to see how it shakes out.


I don't think Nolan will win NPOY as I believe the media has already annointed Jimmer. I do expect Nolan to be ACCPOY and 1st team AA.

Clearly his stats aren't mindblowing because of an average 1st two seasons, but his numbers this year are sensational, and official or unofficial, a performance like last night's goes a long way. If he finishes the year the way he's played it so far, I think his jersey should go up.


At this point, I'd have to say that based on the exposure he gets at Duke, the trajectory of his season (and career) and the likely trajectory of his chief competitors (sullinger and Fredette) that Nolan will win at least one NPOY. I think Fredette is a gunner in a weaker conference who cannot defend (Adam Morrison?). I think Sullinger is really good but his 18 and 10 is only as sparkly as OSU's undefeated season (Elton Brand as a frosh?). I do think Nolan's season holds up better in the next month as voters get serious. Just my two cents. He's a great story. Kevin Durant tweeting about him today helps too.

Think about the last freshmen and mid-major guys to win a NPOY:
Kevin Durant was the overwhelming choice a few years back. No brainer.
Jameer Nelson (St Joe's) split the awards with Okafor. Andre Bogut (Utah) won all the awards in 2005.

Sullinger is not an obvious choice like Durant was. Does Fredette feel obvious like Bogut or eh, like Nelson? The next month will be telling.

[nocilla]

Just a thought but if Kyrie Irving was still playing would we be saying Sullinger deserved the Freshman of the year over Irving? I know it is hard to say because Irving is not playing so we really don't know how good he would be. But say he continued to play as he did the first 8 games, would we say Irving was better than Sullinger and therefore better than Nolan? Anyone following me here? IMHO, Nolan is playing better than Sullinger. I think Ohio St being undefeated is what has Sullinger as the leader.

Another thought, would Nolan not be playing as well as he is if Irving was still playing? Would we be wondering if Irving was the NPOY?

[Kedsy]

Another thought, would Nolan not be playing as well as he is if Irving was still playing? Would we be wondering if Irving was the NPOY?

Probably.

[Bluedog]

Another thought, would Nolan not be playing as well as he is if Irving was still playing? Would we be wondering if Irving was the NPOY?


Probably.

I think Nolan would be playing more efficiently which could be interpreted as better, but his numbers wouldn't be as gaudy and thus he probably wouldn't be in the NPOY conversations as much. He's no doubt had to step it up since Irving has been on the sidelines.

Singler is almost guaranteed to get his jersey retired. It's a four-year body of work and not just "what have you done senior year." Nolan is still not assured, but I think he could push through the barrier. I like Jason Evan's criteria...if there's a debate, that means the jersey shouldn't be retired. All the retired jerseys have no debate - they should be up there.

[InSpades]

I think the surest way to get both jerseys in the rafters is to win another national championship (an ACC regular season and tournament championship wouldn't hurt either). I don't see how you deny either of them if they win back-to-back. I know jerseys in the rafters are not about team accomplishments but if Duke is going to win another ring those 2 are going to have to put up another great postseason.

[gls6]

I was just discussing this last weekend with some people. It kind of seems like Duke wants to retire Kyle's but not Nolan's. If Nolan doesn't win NPOY, my guess is that they will probably honor both of them but not retire either one.

[RoyalBlue08]

I think both Kyle and Nolan have interesting arguments for and against, and in the end whatever Duke decides to do I will probably be understanding of.

IMO, it is very hard not to retire Kyle's jersey. Look at it this way. If his career ended today he would have more points, rebounds, and assists than Battier. I realize he isn't as good a defender (who is?), but he is certainly a very good defender. Given that guys that produce at his level rarely stay 4 years, I don't know when we will see someone put up these kind of numbers in a Duke uniform. The argument against him is obviously that he never had a NPOY type of season. I am willing to overlook this, especially when you consider he has been a star for us all 4 years he has been here.

Nolan is tougher. He has two seasons off the bench. One very good year last year and then this year. IMO if he wins a major NPOY award this year he deserves his jersey retired too. (Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the kid, but I think we need to keep jersey retirements for those with elite individual accomplishments.)

[nmduke2001]

Haven't seen this posted yet.
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/feed/2011-02/dukenorth-carolina/story/nolan-smith-adds-common-sounding-name-to-national-player-of-the-year-race
Author seems to think that Nolan is right back in the race for NPOY.

[Gewebe14]

Haven't seen this posted yet.
http://www.sportingnews.com/ncaa-basketball/feed/2011-02/dukenorth-carolina/story/nolan-smith-adds-common-sounding-name-to-national-player-of-the-year-race
Author seems to think that Nolan is right back in the race for NPOY.

Has anyone associated with duke ever said that the requirement is a NPOY honor? Or is it just the pattern so far. With the things K has done to "loosen" up the the program lately (per the article on Nolan posted today) I would suspect that making it marginally easier to get a jersey retired could be one of the trends. Heavy emphasis on marginally. I.e. Kyle Singler (depending a little bit on how this year finishes) IS ONE OF THE ALL-TIME GREATS AT DUKE. Stat-wise it may not show up as much as a JJ, but how many of you guys would trade him for JJ right now or take his 4 year career instead of JJs. It's a legit debate. Nolan hasn't been quite as good as Singler for as long and I think he has a less compelling argument at this moment.

[Li_Duke]

Well let's take a look at those with jerseys retired and those without:

Of the 13 players to have their jerseys retired, 8 won national POY (Dick Groat, Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Art Heyman, Christian Laettner, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, J. J. Redick). Of the remaining 5, Jeff Mullin played in the 60s and had his jersey retired in 1994. I don't really know much else about him. Bobby Hurley was the NCAA all-time assists leader. Shelden Williams was a 2-time NDPOY, a 1st-team all american, and is the all-time Duke leader in blocks and rebounds. Mike Gminski was a 1st team all-American, an ACCPOY, and the #1 All-time Duke leader in points, rebounds, blocks when he graduated. Grant Hill probably had the "weakest" resume, and he was a 1st team all-american, an ACCPOY, won 2 national championships, and single-handedly got Duke into a 3rd national championship game.

Of those who didn't have their jerseys retired but had strong credentials, you have 2 1st-team all-americans in Bob Verga and Chris Carrawell (who was also ACCPOY), 5 2nd team all-americans in Ed Koffenberger, Jack Marin, Jim Spanarkel, Trajan Langdon, and Jon Scheyer, 2 NDPOY in Billy King and Tommy Amaker, and Mark Alarie and Gene Banks were just as high on the Duke all-time leaders list statistically when they graduated as Singler is now. I'm probably missing a few others worthy of mention in that list.

So where does that leave Singler and Smith? I think Singler will probably falls short of the stated eligibility requirements: at least one National POY, NDPOY, 1st team All-American, or breaking an NCAA record (like Hurley). If Smith wins at least one of the national POY award, I think he's in. There hasn't been a POY whose graduated that hasn't had his jersey retired so I can't see Coach K denying him that honor. If he's "just" a first team all-american, I think he falls in the Chris Carrawell category and probably won't make it.

Of course, I can also see an exception made for Singler and Smith for the lack of individual accolades if we win another championship. So let's just hope that happens. :)

[InSpades]

I think Kyle is a really tough case. His jersey retirement kind of reminds me of HOF talk for Rafael Palmiero last month (minus the steroids of course). He has been a beacon of consistency for a long career, but he was never the guy on the team. He was overshadowed by Gerald his first two years, Jon last year, and Nolan this year.

How was Kyle overshadowed by Gerald? Kyle's freshman year he averaged more minutes, points and rebounds while playing ridiculously out of position for a decent part of the time. Kyle's sophmore year they had identical points-per-game while Kyle obviously once again had a large rebounding advantage (and played more minutes again). Jon started out last year on fire which I think gave him more buzz than Kyle but I wouldn't say he was overshadowed (especially not later in the year). This year you could probably make a case for Nolan overshadowing Kyle, but Nolan is having a ridiculous year.

[InSpades]

So where does that leave Singler and Smith? I think Singler will probably falls short of the stated eligibility requirements: at least one National POY, NDPOY, 1st team All-American, or breaking an NCAA record (like Hurley). If Smith wins at least one of the national POY award, I think he's in.

There's no way Nolan makes it and Kyle doesn't. How can you possibly look at their entire careers and say "Nolan is worthy but Kyle is not"? Kyle was ready to be a star at Duke the moment he stepped foot on campus. Where would that team have been without a freshman Kyle Singler? He was 1st or 2nd on the team in scoring, rebounding and minutes played every year. I love Nolan and all but his 1st 2 years were nowhere near "rafter-worthy".

Personally I think the whole NPoY requirement is bunk. Why should what another player does impact the honors we bestow on our players? Sorry... you weren't as good as Kevin Durant... you can't have your number retired.

Name me a better player (who graduated) in the last 20 years than Kyle Singler who doesn't have his number retired... Kyle Singler blows Trajan Langdon out of the water. Chris Carawell? He's no Kyle Singler.

[MulletMan]

I was just discussing this last weekend with some people. It kind of seems like Duke wants to retire Kyle's but not Nolan's. If Nolan doesn't win NPOY, my guess is that they will probably honor both of them but not retire either one.

Uhh... this is not UNC, we don't "honor" numbers.

[Kedsy]

Well let's take a look at those with jerseys retired and those without:

Of the 13 players to have their jerseys retired, 8 won national POY (Dick Groat, Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Art Heyman, Christian Laettner, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, J. J. Redick). Of the remaining 5, Jeff Mullin played in the 60s and had his jersey retired in 1994. I don't really know much else about him. Bobby Hurley was the NCAA all-time assists leader. Shelden Williams was a 2-time NDPOY, a 1st-team all american, and is the all-time Duke leader in blocks and rebounds. Mike Gminski was a 1st team all-American, an ACCPOY, and the #1 All-time Duke leader in points, rebounds, blocks when he graduated. Grant Hill probably had the "weakest" resume, and he was a 1st team all-american, an ACCPOY, won 2 national championships, and single-handedly got Duke into a 3rd national championship game.

Of those who didn't have their jerseys retired but had strong credentials, you have 2 1st-team all-americans in Bob Verga and Chris Carrawell (who was also ACCPOY), 5 2nd team all-americans in Ed Koffenberger, Jack Marin, Jim Spanarkel, Trajan Langdon, and Jon Scheyer, 2 NDPOY in Billy King and Tommy Amaker, and Mark Alarie and Gene Banks were just as high on the Duke all-time leaders list statistically when they graduated as Singler is now. I'm probably missing a few others worthy of mention in that list.

http://www.dukeupdate.com/Records/allamerica_teams.htm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_america.html

Well, according to the above links, neither Verga nor Carrawell were 1st team AA. Rather, both were actually 2nd team AA. Gminski and Spanarkel were UPI first team AA, but Gminski was only 2nd team AP AA, and Spanarkel did not make any AP teams (meaning Spanarkel was not a 2nd team AA, no matter how you slice it).

Again using the above links, here's the list of Duke players who made 1st team All America (I think UPI stopped doing it in 1989):

Groat (AP)
Heyman (AP & UPI)
Gminski (UPI/2nd AP)
Spanarkel (UPI only)
Dawkins (AP & UPI)
Ferry (AP & UPI)
Laettner (AP)
Hurley (AP)
G Hill (AP)
Brand (AP)
Battier (AP)
J Williams (AP)
Redick (AP)
S Williams (AP)

This list includes 12 of our 13 retired numbers. The only people on this list who didn't get their numbers retired were Jim Spanarkel (who was not on any AP list), and Elton Brand (who didn't graduate). The only person not on this list who has his jersey retired is Mullins, and as you pointed out this happened years after his career ended.

Here's list of Duke players who made 2nd team All America:

Mullins (AP/UPI)
Marin (AP/3rd UPI)
Verga (AP/UPI)
Gminski (AP/1st UPI)
Langdon (AP)
Carrawell (AP)
Dunleavy (AP)
Scheyer (AP)

(I'm not including those who made 2nd team and then later made 1st team in another season.)

Only Mullins made it from this list, almost 30 years after he graduated, and Gminski, who was also 1st team UPI.

What this says to me is making first team AA is pretty important to jersey retirement. It's a much stronger correlation than POY or any of the other things we throw around in these discussions. So if Nolan makes first team and Kyle only makes third team, what will happen? I don't think any of us know.

[taiw93]

I strongly believe that Singler and Smith are a "package deal" either way: either both will be retired, or both will not. In my opinion, they both should be retired. Singler could finish as high as third on Duke's all-time leading scorers list, and Nolan Smith is a lock 1st Team AA this year, and is probably the most likable (to Duke fans, opposing fans, opposing players, and recruits) Duke players ever. In fact, I think he has played a MAJOR role in Duke's recent recruiting hot streak, as several recruits have mentioned hanging out and talking with Nolan as a highlight of their Duke recruitment. And, most importantly, they are both proven winners. I cannot think of two better players (or, I should say, people) to lead Duke's team this year.

[Magnolia888]

Singler is almost guaranteed to get his jersey retired. It's a four-year body of work and not just "what have you done senior year." Nolan is still not assured, but I think he could push through the barrier. I like Jason Evan's criteria...if there's a debate, that means the jersey shouldn't be retired. All the retired jerseys have no debate - they should be up there.

Hmmm . . . I remember some debate about Shelden. And he was NDPOY and 1st team AA.

I agree with the above comment that Kyle and Nolan seem like a package deal. Kyle has made a bigger impact from the first day he stepped foot on campus. Nolan is having a killer senior year . . . but that doesn't make him a bigger contributor over all 4 years.

It would really seem odd to retire Nolan's jersey and not Kyle's. Are we honoring the player for their senior year? Or their contributions to the program over four years? Kyle may not make the grade with NPOY kind of honors, but he is in the Top 5 scorers of all time -- ahead of Danny Ferry! Ahead of Jay Will! That's a lot of points.

[Jderf]

I think you have to grant that, no matter how the two of them finish out the year, at least one of them will get their jersey retired -- if only for the fact that, if they didn't, that would mean that the 2010 national champions had zero players worthy of the rafters, which would seem absurd to me. (Apologies for the run on sentence)

[uh_no]

I think you have to grant that, no matter how the two of them finish out the year, at least one of them will get their jersey retired -- if only for the fact that, if they didn't, that would mean that the 2010 national champions had zero players worthy of the rafters, which would seem absurd to me. (Apologies for the run on sentence)

I completely disagree....there is no rule that says that every national championship team has to have a star player..we had 5...their accomplishment is honored at the north end of the stadium

[DukieInBrasil]

I think you have to grant that, no matter how the two of them finish out the year, at least one of them will get their jersey retired -- if only for the fact that, if they didn't, that would mean that the 2010 national champions had zero players worthy of the rafters, which would seem absurd to me. (Apologies for the run on sentence)
I think that both of them could get their jersey retired, but they would have to make things happen. Like another NC. Nolan would have to win ACC POY and possibly one of the NPOY awards. If Singler could pick up another F4 MOP it would help his cause nicely.
One of the things that could really help Nolan would be to win the ACC scoring title and assist title too. However, as Duke is looking to him for more and more of it's offense lately, his assists/game has dropped by 1/2 an assist per game in the last 4 games. Kendall Marshall is now averaging 5apg and could pass Nolan if his slide continues.
Hopefully Singler gets hot again so that Nolan can pick up some more assists. Same for Ryan and Dre.

[Jderf]

I completely disagree....there is no rule that says that every national championship team has to have a star player..we had 5...their accomplishment is honored at the north end of the stadium

I mean, to be honest, I agree with you. There's definitely no rule that says it. But still, it seems absurd to me that there wouldn't be a single one.

[uh_no]

I mean, to be honest, I agree with you. There's definitely no rule that says it. But still, it seems absurd to me that there wouldn't be a single one.

If any team could do it, it would have been last year's team.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

Kyle's career numbers are very strong because he was the rare player who jumped in and contributed in a major way in his freshman year AND stuck around for 4 years. I definitely think these are points in his favor...but...he's never really been great. He's been good to very good his whole career, but I've never watched him and thought "this is one the greats". He's never wowed me. As far as I can tell, he's never been a national All-American. It looks like The Sporting News put him on their Fifth Team last year.

Nolan Smith, on the other hand, has been great this year. This truly is one of the best seasons by a Duke player that I've seen. And he was really good last year. The first two years he was a solid contributor.

Frankly, I've talked myself out of putting either guy up there at this time, but if Nolan wins NPOY, or if we win a 2nd championship, then that could certainly change. If we repeat, I'd probably vote to put both of them up there. Championships matter a ton.

Edited to add: And I don't mean to hate on Kyle Singler, but since people seem more convinced that he deserves it (if only one of them were to make it), here's a couple of pointed arguments against him.

1. If you look at the resumes of the guys up there now, you'd almost certainly have to say he has a weaker resume than anyone up there currently (barring a second national championship)

2. What I said earlier about making the 5th All-American Team in The Sporting News last year. That's the best he's ever done in All-American voting (according to Wikipedia). So, in his BEST season, he was considered something like the 20th best player in the country. This is a player who should be remembered for a terrific career, but IMO, jersey retirement has to be reserved for those rare GREAT players. Kyle's just not in that stratosphere.

[OldPhiKap]

Nolan -- hard to think that the first player to lead the ACC in ppg and apg (if it holds) doesn't get his jersey retired.

Kyle -- when all is said and done, who scored more points at Duke and did not have their jerseys retired?

[Sir Stealth]

I personally would prefer that we keep jersey retirement as strict as possible. A lot of times we feel so close to Duke seniors who have accomplished a lot that we want to cheer for them to attain every honor that could possibly be given to them.

I think that a good example of this is that most people seem to be cheering for Kyle Singler to get as far up the Duke all time scoring list as possible, with passing Christian Laettner as the ultimate goal going into this season. Setting aside the fact that we want Kyle to score as many points this years as possible to help the team, to the average Duke fan, it really shouldn't matter whether or not Singler or Laettner is higher on the list - they both played for Duke.

Duke should be extremely stringent about jersey retirement so as not to diminish the value of the Duke jerseys already hanging up there. I would bet that there are plenty of fans who advocated retiring the jerseys of players such as Trajan Langdon and Jon Scheyer as their careers ended because they felt so close to these players due to their many accomplishments and the way that they represented the university. I would bet that far less fans would advocate retiring these jerseys now that there is more separation from the time that they played.

Further, Duke seems to have always taken a certain amount of pride in being more discerning about jersey retirement than other schools. Although most of the jerseys hanging in the Dean Dome are "honored" rather than retired, I have always thought that including a lot of the players who are up there made the whole thing seem like a huge joke. Although I don't favor concrete criteria, I think that the requirements should be very strict and should only minimally include things such as being a great ambassador to the program. We have had many, many great basketball players and equally great characters to represent our program.

I think that Nolan needs to win one NPOY award in order to have his jersey retired. This wouldn't necessarily have to be the Naismith or the Wooden award.

I don't think that Kyle should be a lock either. He will finish in a fantastic position on the all-time Duke statistics lists, but many other non-retired players have finished in similarly great position at the close of their careers, and Kyle will have played more games than many of them due to a longer season. I would like to see Kyle be a first team All-American or, if we win a second national championship, a second-team All-American in order for his jersey to be retired, regardless of stats.

Having both finish great careers at the same time gives each a boost - if they are close, you wouldn't want to have one and not the other. I think that if we make the Final Four, Nolan gets a NPOY award, and Kyle gets second team, then they should both go up. Even if Kyle doesn't get second team and Nolan gets no NPOYs but is a first team All American, I think both should go up if we win it all again. Less than that, and I'd probably be against it.

[Devil in the Blue Dress]

Well let's take a look at those with jerseys retired and those without:

Of the 13 players to have their jerseys retired, 8 won national POY (Dick Groat, Johnny Dawkins, Danny Ferry, Art Heyman, Christian Laettner, Shane Battier, Jason Williams, J. J. Redick). Of the remaining 5, Jeff Mullin played in the 60s and had his jersey retired in 1994. I don't really know much else about him. Bobby Hurley was the NCAA all-time assists leader. Shelden Williams was a 2-time NDPOY, a 1st-team all american, and is the all-time Duke leader in blocks and rebounds. Mike Gminski was a 1st team all-American, an ACCPOY, and the #1 All-time Duke leader in points, rebounds, blocks when he graduated. Grant Hill probably had the "weakest" resume, and he was a 1st team all-american, an ACCPOY, won 2 national championships, and single-handedly got Duke into a 3rd national championship game.

Of those who didn't have their jerseys retired but had strong credentials, you have 2 1st-team all-americans in Bob Verga and Chris Carrawell (who was also ACCPOY), 5 2nd team all-americans in Ed Koffenberger, Jack Marin, Jim Spanarkel, Trajan Langdon, and Jon Scheyer, 2 NDPOY in Billy King and Tommy Amaker, and Mark Alarie and Gene Banks were just as high on the Duke all-time leaders list statistically when they graduated as Singler is now. I'm probably missing a few others worthy of mention in that list.

So where does that leave Singler and Smith? I think Singler will probably falls short of the stated eligibility requirements: at least one National POY, NDPOY, 1st team All-American, or breaking an NCAA record (like Hurley). If Smith wins at least one of the national POY award, I think he's in. There hasn't been a POY whose graduated that hasn't had his jersey retired so I can't see Coach K denying him that honor. If he's "just" a first team all-american, I think he falls in the Chris Carrawell category and probably won't make it.

Of course, I can also see an exception made for Singler and Smith for the lack of individual accolades if we win another championship. So let's just hope that happens. :)
Dick Groat was the first one whose jersey was retired. Eddie Cameron, our AD, felt that no others should be retired. He didn't yield even when Vic Bubas tried to convince him that Artie's jersey should be retired. Only after Mr. Cameron's retirement were others retired.

The retirement of those two jerseys finally took place once there were other jerseys retired. Do not mistake the thirty year interval to reflect anything negative about the quality of play those two guys gave, game after game. Heyman and Mullins are two very important pillars in the foundation of Duke basketball as a national power.

[peblnh8]

Of the 13 players who have had their jerseys retired.. what.. 10? 11? of them are in the last 30 years. At this pace we'll be out of 2 digit numbers by 2250, and we'll also be out of rafter space as the 10th generation krzyzewski wins the family's 37th national title and 187th ACC title.

The hyperbole is slightly outlandish, but it does illustrate a point.

Consider the NY Yankees as a dynasty for comparison. They have 17 (if google didnt fail me) retired jerseys in about 70 years.. Over the last 30 years we have been on a faster pace than them, in a sport where fewer players contribute at any given time. On the flip, it looks like they have at least 1 jersey retired from every World Series championship (minus the recent ones, but is anyone going to argue against jeter / rivera?

[Vincetaylor]

Nolan's jersey is being retired regardless of what happens the rest of the season. I'd bet a lot of money on it. He is one of K's all time favorite players.

[throatybeard]

Uhh... this is not UNC, we don't "honor" numbers.

We don't honor numbers, but we honor guys. And gals. We stick them in the Chick-Fil-A pavilion. Poor Chris Moreland and Bob Verga...

[Edouble]

Nolan's jersey is being retired regardless of what happens the rest of the season. I'd bet a lot of money on it. He is one of K's all time favorite players.

So was Wojo.

I can't see Nolan getting his jersey retired. He just didn't do enough his first two years.

I think Kyle should have his jersey in the rafters. He was fierce from day 1, and is one of the all-time Duke greats. He's in the middle of a little slump right now, but over four years has been one of the nastiest, most feared Blue Devils ever.

[CDu]

So was Wojo.

I can't see Nolan getting his jersey retired. He just didn't do enough his first two years.

I think Kyle should have his jersey in the rafters. He was fierce from day 1, and is one of the all-time Duke greats. He's in the middle of a little slump right now, but over four years has been one of the nastiest, most feared Blue Devils ever.

IF Smith continues his amazing play and does overtake Fredette and Sullinger in the PoY race (I think Walker has taken a huge step backwards in the race over the past month), it will be an interesting test.

Smith wasn't a huge factor (talented player, but not a huge presence) in his first two years. Even last year, he was the #3 guy behind Singler and Scheyer. It will be interesting to see if one very good (but not spectacular) year and one great year is enough.

Singler on the other hand has been one of the two best/most productive players on the team all four of his years, and is going to likely end up the #4 scorer in team history. He's also among the top four rebounders in team history. He hasn't made the jump that Smith has as a senior, but he's been great on the court for four years as opposed to two.

[MulletMan]

As a long gone poster used to point out, if you're debating whether or not a player should have his or her jersey retired, you've already got your answer. Jersey retirement is for the no doubt cases. If a guy is borderline, then no, he shouldn't have his jersey retired. Of course, you can't really know until the end of the year, can you?

[flyingdutchdevil]

IF Smith continues his amazing play and does overtake Fredette and Sullinger in the PoY race (I think Walker has taken a huge step backwards in the race over the past month), it will be an interesting test.

Smith wasn't a huge factor (talented player, but not a huge presence) in his first two years. Even last year, he was the #3 guy behind Singler and Scheyer. It will be interesting to see if one very good (but not spectacular) year and one great year is enough.

Singler on the other hand has been one of the two best/most productive players on the team all four of his years, and is going to likely end up the #4 scorer in team history. He's also among the top four rebounders in team history. He hasn't made the jump that Smith has as a senior, but he's been great on the court for four years as opposed to two.

Does that mean that Duke, or any basketball program for that matter, prioritize consistency over improvement? Doesn't that degrade the fact that these programs have helped to develop players successfully?

Now, I fully agree that Singler should get his jersey retired, but I feel that Nolan's improvement over 4 years, which has been absolutely unbelievable, warrants his jersey to be retired as well.

It's a disservice to players who aren't as ready out of high school but leave college as a top 5 player to not have the same legacy as a more ready player who hasn't shown the same levels of improvement (note: that is not a hit against Singler).

[DallasDevil]

I'm actually surprised there is this much debate about these two getting their jerseys retired. Some one mentioned that there is no rule that a player from a national championship team has to have their jersey retired, but the fact is there are no set rules for this honor other than graduating from Duke and having Coach K deem you worthy. The 1991, 1992, and 2001 teams each have multiple players with their jerseys retired, though. Not only that, every Duke final four team has a jersey retired. Further, a previous poster pointed out that almost all of Duke's first team AA's have been so honored, and I would think Nolan is a lock to receive that honor this year. Also, every Final Four MOP from Duke has his jersey hanging up in the rafters. If we are worried about retiring too many jerseys because we retire anyone that is a first team AA or a Final Four MOP, then that's a pretty good problem to have.

[throatybeard]

Not only that, every Duke final four team has a jersey retired.

Not 1966, though obviously there's an argument to be made for Verga.

[Lord Ash]

Howdy all,

There has been a lot of talk recently about great Duke players and their numbers being retired...

A buddy and I were recently talking about these three fellows, all of which played four years at Duke, all of which had FANTASTIC careers at Duke... but none of which (so far) have had their numbers retired. We basically agreed these three were all examples of players who were ABSOLUTELY Duke greats, but all three MAY end up being JUST below the cut-off for jersey retirement.

So, I wanted to propose it to all of you; if you could argue that ONE of those three should be in the rafters, which one would you argue for, and what would be your main points?

(For the sake of argument, my buddy and I agreed that Nolan would end up being the first ACC player EVER to lead the league in points and assists, and would win ACC POY. We did not think he would win NPOY, and we assumed that he would not win a national title, which would obviously change things QUITE a bit.)

Very curious to see how people feel.

[Son of Mojo]

It's too hard to decide until this season ends with Nolan (and Kyle IMO). Wait out until we finish up and hopefully hang a few more banners before the season ends to revisit the idea. As it pertains to Trajan and Jon, I'd give a slight edge to Jon because his team did win the NC when getting to the game while Trajan's fell just short. However, Trajan was a major piece of the most dominant team I've ever seen in '99.

[Spam Filter]

Of the 13 players who have had their jerseys retired.. what.. 10? 11? of them are in the last 30 years. At this pace we'll be out of 2 digit numbers by 2250, and we'll also be out of rafter space as the 10th generation krzyzewski wins the family's 37th national title and 187th ACC title.

The hyperbole is slightly outlandish, but it does illustrate a point.

Consider the NY Yankees as a dynasty for comparison. They have 17 (if google didnt fail me) retired jerseys in about 70 years.. Over the last 30 years we have been on a faster pace than them, in a sport where fewer players contribute at any given time. On the flip, it looks like they have at least 1 jersey retired from every World Series championship (minus the recent ones, but is anyone going to argue against jeter / rivera?

Not a good comparison. College basketball career last a max of 4 season, baseball careers (of those who are worthy of retirement) last 15-20 years. So of course the rate of player up for potential retirement is going to be higher.

On the other hand, I myself would not retire either Singler or Smith right now, I wouldn't have retired Shelden Williams' either.

If they lead us to a 2nd title then I would reconsider.

[Saratoga2]

As of today, ESPN is definitely adding Nolan to the list of players in the running. Actually it is Jimmer Fredette, Sullinger and Nolan with Walker of UCONN slipping. The fact that Nolan is in the running this year should help people on the fence about Jersey retirement.

[Highlander]

The NDPOY only became a qualifier for Shelden Williams - it wasn't enough for Billy King or Tommy Amaker who both won the award (Shane Battier won three of the things!).

Wojo also one in 1998, and his number is not retired, for what it's worth. Shelden did win two NDPOY awards (2005 & 2006), so I wonder if that put him over.

http://www.nabc.org/nabc_awards/nabc_awards-poy.html

[Troublemaker]

I still think the "every player runs his own race" thing pushes him over the top for jersey retirement. That statement is such a core tenet for the Duke program. Has ANY long-time Duke fan NOT heard that phrase before?

So, again, this is how I view things. Nolan ran HIS race and he's going to finish HIS race as a likely ACC POY and 1st team All-American. He's going to finish HIS race as a player that is equivalent to Shelden, JJ, and Kyle, arguably better than Kyle.

Add in his off-the-court contributions as a great ambassador for the Duke program, and I have a hard time denying him.

Every player runs his own race. Is that important or not?

[cato]

Kyle's career numbers are very strong because he was the rare player who jumped in and contributed in a major way in his freshman year AND stuck around for 4 years. I definitely think these are points in his favor...but...he's never really been great.

You have a strange definition of great. Kyle Singler was the Final Four MOP last year. He also lead the team in 3FG%, and was a close second in points per game, rebounds per game, FT% and minutes played. He was third in assists. On a national championship team. His numbers in all of those categories approach Battier's numbers during his senior season.


He's been good to very good his whole career, but I've never watched him and thought "this is one the greats". He's never wowed me.

If you're not wowed, you must not be watching close enough.

[PADukeMom]

Nolan is turning out to be my all time favorite player however he & Kyle have around 8 more weeks to earn the privlige of having their jerseys retired.

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

One point in support of Nolan's jersey retirement is that he will likely be the first player ever to lead the ACC in points and assists. That's a pretty significant honor considering the caliber of guards that have played in the ACC over the years.

I'm not supporting that his jersey be retired or not. However, do you think K could retire Singler's and not Nolan's? They seem as much a pair as JJ and Shel.

[ncexnyc]

It's too hard to decide until this season ends with Nolan (and Kyle IMO). Wait out until we finish up and hopefully hang a few more banners before the season ends to revisit the idea. As it pertains to Trajan and Jon, I'd give a slight edge to Jon because his team did win the NC when getting to the game while Trajan's fell just short. However, Trajan was a major piece of the most dominant team I've ever seen in '99.
I agree with you that it's difficult to discuss this and reach any kind of a decision one way or another until the season finishes. There are just to many variables that we can speculate about.

I'm fond of what Nolan has done because to me it embodies what the 4 yr player should be about and that's improving year after year. I guess that is why so many of us love certain players more than others because we get to watch them grow.

[Billy Dat]

This is a great discussion, many of you have made excellent points.

-What if we win a second National Championship but Nolan does not win NPOY and is not named a first team All American?

I would think that Singler and Nolan both get the nod - 2 rings!!!!

-What if Nolan wins NPOY and is first team AA but no second ring?

I think there's a good chance he goes up and Kyle does not. The NPOY, first team AA and a ring trumps lack of career stats

Those are the only 2 scenarios I see where either of them can be recognized. Singler will be hurt by the lack of awards as he won't be a NPOY or first team AA this year. If Nolan keeps up his torrid play, he should be a first team AA, but I think he needs that NPOY to get the jersey retirement. If we win another title, how can they not retire both? I know it's not a team award, but rings is rings!!!!!!!!!

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Howdy all,

There has been a lot of talk recently about great Duke players and their numbers being retired...

A buddy and I were recently talking about these three fellows, all of which played four years at Duke, all of which had FANTASTIC careers at Duke... but none of which (so far) have had their numbers retired. We basically agreed these three were all examples of players who were ABSOLUTELY Duke greats, but all three MAY end up being JUST below the cut-off for jersey retirement.

So, I wanted to propose it to all of you; if you could argue that ONE of those three should be in the rafters, which one would you argue for, and what would be your main points?

(For the sake of argument, my buddy and I agreed that Nolan would end up being the first ACC player EVER to lead the league in points and assists, and would win ACC POY. We did not think he would win NPOY, and we assumed that he would not win a national title, which would obviously change things QUITE a bit.)

Very curious to see how people feel.
Several years ago when Duke expanded Cameron by building the concourse that houses the Hall of Honor (and referred to above as the Chic-Fil-A food court), they said that once players were honored by entering the Hall of Honor they would not be considered for jersey retirement. Players such as Banks, Alarie, Spanarkel (my choice for old timer jersey retirement), etc. are thusly not to be reconsidered. These players can also be honored by being enshrined in the Duke Athletic Hall of Fame, housed adjacent to the basketball museum in the renovated Schwartz/Butters Building just off the Hall of Honor concourse.

The Hall of Honor is now largely ignored by most fans as they walk through eating pizza, pretzels and drinking soft drinks, which is really too bad.

[The Gordog]

Grant Hill probably had the "weakest" resume, and he was a 1st team all-american, an ACCPOY, won 2 national championships, and single-handedly got Duke into a 3rd national championship game.
I thought Grant won NDPOY.



Of course, I can also see an exception made for Singler and Smith for the lack of individual accolades if we win another championship. So let's just hope that happens. :)

+1 !

[DallasDevil]

Not 1966, though obviously there's an argument to be made for Verga.

You're correct, my apologies. And yes, I'd retire Verga as well. Then again, I'm clearly in the camp with a lower bar for jersey retirement.

[DukieInBrasil]

Wojo also one in 1998, and his number is not retired, for what it's worth. Shelden did win two NDPOY awards (2005 & 2006), so I wonder if that put him over.
You don't think that being Duke's all-time leader in rebounds AND blocked shots did?

[rasputin]

Not a good comparison. College basketball career last a max of 4 season, baseball careers (of those who are worthy of retirement) last 15-20 years. So of course the rate of player up for potential retirement is going to be higher.

On the other hand, I myself would not retire either Singler or Smith right now, I wouldn't have retired Shelden Williams' either.

If they lead us to a 2nd title then I would reconsider.

Another factor if you're comparing college basketball to MLB jersey numbers is that there are fewer available basketball numbers in the first place unless you start having digits larger than 5.

[OldPhiKap]

Another factor if you're comparing college basketball to MLB jersey numbers is that there are fewer available basketball numbers in the first place unless you start having digits larger than 5.

Solution: start hiring refs with 12 fingers.

Problem solved.

[rasputin]

Solution: start hiring refs with 12 fingers.

Problem solved.

And craft a special sword for them.

[monkey]

You don't think that being Duke's all-time leader in rebounds AND blocked shots did?

Yeah and the Wojo comparison is especially absurd when you consider that Wojo averaged, for his career, 5.4 ppg (687 career total) and 3.9 assists a game. In contrast, Shelden averaged nearly 14 points a game (1928 total) to go with the boards, the blocks and the 2 national defensive player of the year trophies. I might add, his junior and senior years he averaged a double double along with having the first triple triple double (points, boards, blocks) at Duke in something like 30 years.

[OldPhiKap]

And craft a special sword for them.

Be careful of the "charge" call.



And, no, I don't want a peanut.

[DUKIE V(A)]

Both are locks in my view -- as they should be.

[Mabdul Doobakus]

You have a strange definition of great. Kyle Singler was the Final Four MOP last year. He also lead the team in 3FG%, and was a close second in points per game, rebounds per game, FT% and minutes played. He was third in assists. On a national championship team. His numbers in all of those categories approach Battier's numbers during his senior season.



If you're not wowed, you must not be watching close enough.


We can argue semantics about what "great" means vs. "very good", which is what I said. Look, whatever Kyle did last year, no national poll had him in the top 20 players last year. Sure, not that many count down that low, but, like I said, his best honor at the end of the year was a 5th team All-American, which places him in the #21-#25 range. You can argue that national voters are stupid, if you want to. That's fine. I'm just stating a fact. And, yes, I realize he was Final Four MVP, and that's a terrific honor, and an important point in the jersey retirement argument, but it's an award for two games, and I'm making a point about the season as a whole. To me, if your best season (so far) has you as maybe the 20th best player in the nation, you are not "great". As for Singler vs. Battier, Battier was maybe the best defensive player I've ever seen, and Singler is a fine defender, but is definitely not Battier.

And, as for whether I was "wow"ed or not, I mean, come on...I've never been wowed. It doesn't mean I'm not watching the games closely enough. He's a good shooter, he does a lot of things well, but it's pretty rare he takes over a game and blows me away. You can argue with me on any of this, but I'm not going to give you much credit if you're argument is that I'm not watching.


On a separate point, someone mentioned Shelden Williams, and said he was a borderline candidate. I agree. Some of these differences of opinion come down to how permissive people choose to be when it comes to who belongs in the rafters and who does not. To me, Shelden is borderline...I could've gone either way. But comparing at least his individual achievements to Kyle's, it's pretty clear he blows Kyle away...he was a 1st and 2nd team All-American, and a 2 time national defensive player of the year. The fact that Kyle has a championship is a HUGE bonus for Kyle. The fact that he was Final Four MVP is a HUGE bonus for Kyle. I just don't think it makes up the gap. He needs another championship to meet MY criteria for jersey retirement.

[ajgoodfella7]

Being that Nolan and Kyle are in the same class, and have accomplished everything together, it is becoming increasingly hard for me to see one of them getting their jersey retired and not the other. No matter the prerequisites in place, I just can't see Coach choosing to retire one without the other.

[OldPhiKap]

Nolan and Kyle both could have jumped to the league last year, leaving us in a big hole.

They both came back, due in no small part to their loyalty to Duke and the program.

If that doesn't count for something, I'm not sure what does.



I don't have the stats at hand, but I don't think there is a player ahead of Kyle in all-time Duke scoring whose number is not retired. At least, there won't be by the time he is done (knock on wood). Last year's FF MVP.

Nolan is the ultimate Duke player -- started behind someone as a freshman, got better each year, and was our most explosive player the last two years. NPOY candidate this year, could end up being the first player IN THE LONG AND DISTINGUISHED HISTORY OF THE ACC to lead the league in both scoring and assists.


I'd rather invent more numbers than keep these guys out because there aren't enough.


Finish strong, boys, and we put this debate to rest I hope.

-- OPK


(PS FWIW, I argued against retiring Jon's number last year so I am not a soft touch on the issue. As much as I love Jon (and Trajan and Chric C and some others) there is something different about these two in my mind. As the Supreme Court said about porn -- I can't define it, but I know it when I see it.)

[hq2]

The problem with Singler is that he's always been a very good player, but never a great one. If you look at those jerseys in the rafters, every one of those was a great player. Each of them was capable of stepping up and winning big games. Heyman- taking Duke to it's first final four, scoring 40 against Carolina. Gminski - consistent good play in big games (last game vs. Joe Barry Carroll notwithstanding). Battier - stepped up and won the national championship game - Grant Hill - took Duke to the title game almost single handed (take that Glenn Robinson!) Johnny D - 20 points in the first half of the championship game - and on and on.

Now. Last year's final four MOP notwithstanding, (they had to give it to someone) Singler hasn't done that. What he's done is consistently score 15-20 points a game his whole career about every game (with a low field goal percentage to boot -how many 5 for 13 type games has he had? A lot.) In this regard, he's been much closer to players like Spanarkel, Jack Marin, or Mark Alarie - very good players who had occasional big games, but couldn't usually dominate a game. That's why I feel that regardless of how many points he ends up with, he doesn't get it unless he finishes this year as first team All American and shows he's a winner by carrying the team to another title. If he doesn't do that, he's not the equal of the jerseys up there, and shouldn't get in.

[superdave]

The problem with Singler is that he's always been a very good player, but never a great one. If you look at those jerseys in the rafters, every one of those was a great player. Each of them was capable of stepping up and winning big games. Heyman- taking Duke to it's first final four, scoring 40 against Carolina. Gminski - consistent good play in big games (last game vs. Joe Barry Carroll notwithstanding). Battier - stepped up and won the national championship game - Grant Hill - took Duke to the title game almost single handed (take that Glenn Robinson!) Johnny D - 20 points in the first half of the championship game - and on and on.

Now. Last year's final four MOP notwithstanding, (they had to give it to someone) Singler hasn't done that. What he's done is consistently score 15-20 points a game his whole career about every game (with a low field goal percentage to boot -how many 5 for 13 type games has he had? A lot.) In this regard, he's been much closer to players like Spanarkel, Jack Marin, or Mark Alarie - very good players who had occasional big games, but couldn't usually dominate a game. That's why I feel that regardless of how many points he ends up with, he doesn't get it unless he finishes this year as first team All American and shows he's a winner by carrying the team to another title. If he doesn't do that, he's not the equal of the jerseys up there, and shouldn't get in.

So short of AA and/or a title he does not get retired? But he'd be a top 4 scorer and top 10 rebounder. That's huge.

[hq2]

Yes, but stats don't tell the whole story. Shane Battier scored a lot less points in his career than Singler, but he was 3-time NDPOY, and won the most games in Duke history. Jason Williams and Art Heyman both scored a lot less than Singler too, but they only played 3 years and had more impact on the actual games they played.

The whole point is, it's more than just amassing stats; it's how well they played head to head when it really mattered too. That's no one thinks John Stockton was a better player than Isaiah Thomas; head to head, Isaiah was clearly better, even though Stockton (courtesy of Karl Malone) had many more assists. And, for that matter, it's why Vince Carter probably won't make the Hall of Fame, 20,000 points notwithstanding; his overall play and value to his teams just hasn't been that good.

So the way I see it, Singler has a couple more months to prove he deserves his jersey up there. He needs to step it up down the stretch, take over some games, lead the team to another title, and prove he's the equal of the players whose jerseys are up there.

[mike88]

The problem with Singler is that he's always been a very good player, but never a great one. If you look at those jerseys in the rafters, every one of those was a great player. Each of them was capable of stepping up and winning big games. Heyman- taking Duke to it's first final four, scoring 40 against Carolina. Gminski - consistent good play in big games (last game vs. Joe Barry Carroll notwithstanding). Battier - stepped up and won the national championship game - Grant Hill - took Duke to the title game almost single handed (take that Glenn Robinson!) Johnny D - 20 points in the first half of the championship game - and on and on.

Now. Last year's final four MOP notwithstanding, (they had to give it to someone) Singler hasn't done that. What he's done is consistently score 15-20 points a game his whole career about every game (with a low field goal percentage to boot -how many 5 for 13 type games has he had? A lot.) In this regard, he's been much closer to players like Spanarkel, Jack Marin, or Mark Alarie - very good players who had occasional big games, but couldn't usually dominate a game. That's why I feel that regardless of how many points he ends up with, he doesn't get it unless he finishes this year as first team All American and shows he's a winner by carrying the team to another title. If he doesn't do that, he's not the equal of the jerseys up there, and shouldn't get in.

Here's how Kyle compares with Danny Ferry:
Ferry
2155 career points (15.1 per game)
48% FG%
77.5% FT%
7.0 RPG
3.5 APG
3 Final Fours, no narl championships, 2 ACC championships, NPOY 1989

Singler (through 24 games this year)
2190 career points (16.2 per game)
43.4% FG%
76.5% FT%
6.8 RPG
2.0 APG
1 Final Four so far, 1 national Championship so far, 2 ACC championships so far

They are pretty similar statistically; Ferry was NPOY and went to three Final Fours, but Kyle has already won a championship (and was MOP). I would submit that if you agree with retiring Danny's jersey, you should retire Kyle's as well.

Then again, I think Stockton was better than Thomas, too . . .

[superdave]

Yes, but stats don't tell the whole story. Shane Battier scored a lot less points in his career than Singler, but he was 3-time NDPOY, and won the most games in Duke history. Jason Williams and Art Heyman both scored a lot less than Singler too, but they only played 3 years and had more impact on the actual games they played.

The whole point is, it's more than just amassing stats; it's how well they played head to head when it really mattered too. That's no one thinks John Stockton was a better player than Isaiah Thomas; head to head, Isaiah was clearly better, even though Stockton (courtesy of Karl Malone) had many more assists. And, for that matter, it's why Vince Carter probably won't make the Hall of Fame, 20,000 points notwithstanding; his overall play and value to his teams just hasn't been that good.

So the way I see it, Singler has a couple more months to prove he deserves his jersey up there. He needs to step it up down the stretch, take over some games, lead the team to another title, and prove he's the equal of the players whose jerseys are up there.

Haha - I'm sure both Isiah Thomas and John Stockton both have their jerseys retired! We're not comparing Kyle to anyone here, we're trying to figure out if his jersey should and will hang from the rafters. I do think there's work to be done, but I expect Kyle to do it. I suspect he's going to have a nice run in March and the ball will start dropping for him a little more frequently.

[turnandburn55]

Here's how Kyle compares with Danny Ferry:
Ferry
2155 career points (15.1 per game)
48% FG%
77.5% FT%
7.0 RPG
3.5 APG
3 Final Fours, no narl championships, 2 ACC championships, NPOY 1989

Singler (through 24 games this year)
2190 career points (16.2 per game)
43.4% FG%
76.5% FT%
6.8 RPG
2.0 APG
1 Final Four so far, 1 national Championship so far, 2 ACC championships so far

They are pretty similar statistically; Ferry was NPOY and went to three Final Fours, but Kyle has already won a championship (and was MOP). I would submit that if you agree with retiring Danny's jersey, you should retire Kyle's as well.

Then again, I think Stockton was better than Thomas, too . . .

And, to play devil's advocate (pun intended), here's how Kyle compares to Mark Alarie

2136 career points (16.1 PPG)
55.0 FG%
79.7% FT%
6.4 RPG
1.1 APG

1 Final Four, 0 (but oh-so-close) National championships, and 1 ACC championship

[AZLA]

Really consider Singler's entire body of work at Duke. A jersey being retired isn't dependent on one season, or even two. To your point, you mention Battier being National Defensive Player of the Year three years running. It's the overall portfolio that counts.

All four years, Singler been nothing but a consistent leader on the offensive and defensive end. Nolan, played well, but his level of performance his freshman and sophomore year didn't have the same impact as Singler, which IS reflected in stats.

For example, check out Singler's and Smith's general stats in their first two years:

2007 to 2008 (Freshman Year)
Singler = 452 pts. 36 stl. 25 blk. 198 TR
Smith = 202 pts. 18 stl. 5 blk. 52 TR

2008 to 2009 (Sophomore Year)
Singler = 609 pts. 57 stl. 38 blk. 284 TR
Smith = 285 pts. 32 stl. 2 blk. 74 TR.

Granted, Singler came to Duke with his starting role intact early on and not having as much competition as Smith had at the guard position, resulting in more PT. However, Coach K knew Singler's game was more refined for his grade than others. Since, that time, Nolan's game has flourished in his last two years. Agreed, statistics don't tell the entire story, but they were earned and with a National Championship in hand, both Nolan and Singler are serious contenders for having their jersey retired.

Moreover, their decision to forgo the NBA and return their senior year was a choice they both made together. The importance of this mutual decision will never be lost on Coach K. In fact, it elevates them even more, but together, and above the statistics and comparisons to past players. Their gesture to the team will have even more resonance to Coach K above and beyond the statistics.

I will state right now that there is absolutely no way that one of them would have his jersey retired and not the other -- even if Smith gets NPOY. It will be none or both. I'm confident it will be both, and rightfully deserved.

Give me Stockton over Thomas.











The problem with Singler is that he's always been a very good player, but never a great one. If you look at those jerseys in the rafters, every one of those was a great player. Each of them was capable of stepping up and winning big games. Heyman- taking Duke to it's first final four, scoring 40 against Carolina. Gminski - consistent good play in big games (last game vs. Joe Barry Carroll notwithstanding). Battier - stepped up and won the national championship game - Grant Hill - took Duke to the title game almost single handed (take that Glenn Robinson!) Johnny D - 20 points in the first half of the championship game - and on and on.

Now. Last year's final four MOP notwithstanding, (they had to give it to someone) Singler hasn't done that. What he's done is consistently score 15-20 points a game his whole career about every game (with a low field goal percentage to boot -how many 5 for 13 type games has he had? A lot.) In this regard, he's been much closer to players like Spanarkel, Jack Marin, or Mark Alarie - very good players who had occasional big games, but couldn't usually dominate a game. That's why I feel that regardless of how many points he ends up with, he doesn't get it unless he finishes this year as first team All American and shows he's a winner by carrying the team to another title. If he doesn't do that, he's not the equal of the jerseys up there, and shouldn't get in.

[RoyalBlue08]

The problem with Singler is that he's always been a very good player, but never a great one. If you look at those jerseys in the rafters, every one of those was a great player. Each of them was capable of stepping up and winning big games. Heyman- taking Duke to it's first final four, scoring 40 against Carolina. Gminski - consistent good play in big games (last game vs. Joe Barry Carroll notwithstanding). Battier - stepped up and won the national championship game - Grant Hill - took Duke to the title game almost single handed (take that Glenn Robinson!) Johnny D - 20 points in the first half of the championship game - and on and on.

Now. Last year's final four MOP notwithstanding, (they had to give it to someone) Singler hasn't done that. What he's done is consistently score 15-20 points a game his whole career about every game (with a low field goal percentage to boot -how many 5 for 13 type games has he had? A lot.) In this regard, he's been much closer to players like Spanarkel, Jack Marin, or Mark Alarie - very good players who had occasional big games, but couldn't usually dominate a game. That's why I feel that regardless of how many points he ends up with, he doesn't get it unless he finishes this year as first team All American and shows he's a winner by carrying the team to another title. If he doesn't do that, he's not the equal of the jerseys up there, and shouldn't get in.

I would argue that Kyle has been a great player for 4 straight years now. Perhaps we are just getting used to it?

[verga]

is the way i think of Kyle, i think if you retire his jersey you're going to have to look at some older players. I always thought Jack Marin was good but Bob Verga was great, Jim Spanarkel was good but Mike Gminski was great, if you retire Singler's jersey shouldn't Mark Alarie be there also? Maybe in the coming weeks Kyle will do something that will make me or some other Duke fans think he's GREAT.:)

[ricks68]

For he past few years or so, we have been having this discussion about jersey retirement.

Wasn't there some rule that Coach K considered that in order for a Duke player to have his Jersey retired, he must have at least one national player of the year award of some kind? :confused:

Also, didn't Coach K also say that Verga was included in the Hall of Honor, along with some other players, because of that "rule" that he considers?

So, using that criteria, Jon would not be considered, and neither Kyle nor Nolan will be if they do not get at least one of those, either.

Please, someone, correct me if I am wrong ------- and I very well may be as I am a Crustie. (You know, like a demented old person with a pretty bad memory that still screams and stands up at games to fully support the team.) And if I am not, then why is this constantly being discussed without using this criteria?

ricks

[NovaScotian]

I would argue that Kyle has been a great player for 4 straight years now. Perhaps we are just getting used to it?

i think its a little bit like what happened down the road to psycho-t. he was a huge impact player from day one, but in his senior year it seems like he hasn't taken another step forward in his game (so far, at least).

imho, nolan will not be retired even if he wins npoy simply because his impact as a player has really only been these past two seasons. when we were watching him fumbling with point guard duties his freshman and junior years, was anyone thinking to him or herself 'no duke player should ever wear that number again'?

on the contrary, kyle has been the best player on every duke team he was on except for this year. his career accomplishments are outstanding, especially when you consider that he had to play out of his position as a freshman (as our primary big) and as a junior (essentially as a guard). this year has been underwhelming for him, for sure, but i think the body of work he's put in at duke overshadows nolan's even if nolan sweeps the npoy awards.

[ncexnyc]

I really don't like the way this thread is heading. In an effort to make a case for player A, the fans of player A are pointing out the supposed shortcomings of player B and vice-a-verser.

Do we really need to do this to our own kids at this point in time?

[magjayran]

All I know is, if y'all want to take Stockton then I'll gladly take Thomas. That guy was a champion.

[Wander]

imho, nolan will not be retired even if he wins npoy simply because his impact as a player has really only been these past two seasons.

I've said this before, but: if you win a national title and win an NPOY award (and graduate), you get your number retired. Period. At any school.

[Kedsy]

Wasn't there some rule that Coach K considered that in order for a Duke player to have his Jersey retired, he must have at least one national player of the year award of some kind? :confused:

People keep saying that, but the players wearing 3 of our 13 retired jerseys didn't meet that "requirement" (Mullins, Hurley, Gminski). On the flip side, Elton Brand won NPOY, but didn't graduate and didn't have his number retired. Also, three Duke players have won NDPOY and did not get their jersey retired (Amaker, King, Wojo). So a POY seems to be neither necessary nor sufficient.

Nobody has said there's a "rule" about making first team All America, but as I mentioned in an earlier post it has a much stronger correlation. We have had 14 players make first team AA and of those who graduated (again excluding Brand) all but one of them have had their numbers retired (all but Jim Spanarkel, who made the UPI first team AA, but didn't make the AP first, second, or third AA teams, so really it's debatable whether he counts). We also have one jersey in the rafters who never made first team AA (Mullins, who made 2nd team AA and whose jersey was retired almost 30 years after he graduated). His is the only retired jersey out of 7 Duke players who made 2nd team AA but never made first team AA.

Ultimately, I don't think there can be a hard and fast rule. Or if there is, we don't always follow it, which would seem to negate the idea of "hard and fast," wouldn't it?

[uh_no]

I really don't like the way this thread is heading. In an effort to make a case for player A, the fans of player A are pointing out the supposed shortcomings of player B and vice-a-verser.

Do we really need to do this to our own kids at this point in time?

Do this to our kids? we're having reasonable discussion as to their accomplishments and shortcomings. You don't think they hear 100x times this criticism every day in practice?

[ricks68]

People keep saying that, but the players wearing 3 of our 13 retired jerseys didn't meet that "requirement" (Mullins, Hurley, Gminski). On the flip side, Elton Brand won NPOY, but didn't graduate and didn't have his number retired. Also, three Duke players have won NDPOY and did not get their jersey retired (Amaker, King, Wojo). So a POY seems to be neither necessary nor sufficient.

Nobody has said there's a "rule" about making first team All America, but as I mentioned in an earlier post it has a much stronger correlation. We have had 14 players make first team AA and of those who graduated (again excluding Brand) all but one of them have had their numbers retired (all but Jim Spanarkel, who made the UPI first team AA, but didn't make the AP first, second, or third AA teams, so really it's debatable whether he counts). We also have one jersey in the rafters who never made first team AA (Mullins, who made 2nd team AA and whose jersey was retired almost 30 years after he graduated). His is the only retired jersey out of 7 Duke players who made 2nd team AA but never made first team AA.

Ultimately, I don't think there can be a hard and fast rule. Or if there is, we don't always follow it, which would seem to negate the idea of "hard and fast," wouldn't it?

Bob Verga also made two first team AA polls and did not get his Jersey retired. Also, I thought that Coach K instituted his "rule" (including graduation---I also remember???) after the Hall of Fame Museum (or whatever it is called) was put in a number of years ago for future retired jerseys. That would be the last ones before JJ and Shel. Anyone else heard that. If not, then I guess it didn't happen the way I remember it.

ricks

[JohnGalt]

is the way i think of Kyle, i think if you retire his jersey you're going to have to look at some older players. I always thought Jack Marin was good but Bob Verga was great, Jim Spanarkel was good but Mike Gminski was great, if you retire Singler's jersey shouldn't Mark Alarie be there also? Maybe in the coming weeks Kyle will do something that will make me or some other Duke fans think he's GREAT.:)

Like win Most Outstanding Player at the Final Four on a National Championship team?

Marin was 2nd team AA, Spanarkel was a NCAA Regional MVP, and Alarie was 3rd team AA.

But Kyle won MOP on the biggest stage on a NC squad, which means a tad more than what the previous 3 did. That and where he'll land statistics-wise makes him deserving, IMO.

[hq2]

O.K., so I think we can take a look at four Singler scenarios.

1. He doesn't get first team A-A or win the title again - I'd say he's out, because that would put him below all the other retired jersey players.

2. He gets both - that plus his stats and last year's final four, he's in, hands down.

3. He gets first team A-A, but doesn't win it all. I don't know, it's going to be really close. I'd say he doesn't get it (some of the other left out players were too), but he might anyway; that plus his stats and the ring might be enough.

4. He doesn't get first team A-A, but gets mad and goes on a Wally Walker '76 type I'll-show-'em-all-I-belong tournament rampage, and leads Duke to the title. I say he gets in, because he would then be a legend, with two rings to boot. I think that would do it.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

There is only one "hard and fast rule" that we can "take to the bank" to have a jersey number retired:
The player has to graduate.
Beyond that, everything is subjective and needs K's and Brodhead's approval. That is all.

Having said that, I can actually imagine a tragic circumstance where even graduation could be waived, but I don't want to go there. So even the graduation requirement is subjective.

[wilson]

when we were watching him fumbling with point guard duties his freshman and junior years, was anyone thinking to him or herself 'no duke player should ever wear that number again'?Did anyone think that about #31 at the midpoint of Shane Battier's Duke career? I do not think this rubric is useful in answering the question at hand. In fact, I think that part of a lot of folks' argument regarding Nolan's career is that it's rendered all the more special precisely because you'd never have had this discussion about him during his first two seasons.

[Dev11]

For he past few years or so, we have been having this discussion about jersey retirement.
ricks

I posted this last year in Jon's retirement thread, and I will mention it again. Coach K spoke to my freshman class 3 years ago in Cameron and told us that there were two hard rules for jersey retirement. I don't know how long these rules have been in place, but three years ago, it was 1) you had to graduate and 2) you needed either a NPOY/NDPOY award OR you had to set a national record in some statistic. Other qualifications would be soft. Some guys have met these requirements, Wojo I think most recently, but the soft didn't necessarily add up as well.

I don't think Nolan or Kyle will have their jerseys retired without NPOY awards. Trust me, I like the guys, but they just don't meet the criteria (unless Jimmer and Jared Sullinger both get sidelined until April).

[toooskies]

Throw out career stats-- no player has been left off the list because they weren't in the top 10% of Duke players. When you compare Nolan's year this year to the jerseys that have been retired and those who just missed, he definitely fits in with the set of retired jerseys.

Now, the question of what NPOY means is an interesting one. Should Nolan's legacy be negatively affected by the fact that Jimmer Fredette didn't go pro last year? Would Nolan be the NPOY front-runner if Kyrie got hurt in the first game of the season instead of the 8th?

And think about this: our squad this year is a lot more multi-dimensional than the 2006 squad. Would this year's Nolan beat JJ's scoring average if he were in his place?

[PADukeMom]

I can't imagine that Kyle & Nolan won't graduate. I say firmly maintain that of Nolan continues his level of playing, last night not withstanding, he is in frim contention to one of the POY awards.
Question: IYHO is the Mountain West Conference in it's bets year better that the ACC in it's worst year? Yes I know SDS but compared to UNC?
I adore Nolan so yes I am totally biased. I want his jersey so bad but I can't get it yet; no jinx.

[mkline09]

I can't imagine that Kyle & Nolan won't graduate. I say firmly maintain that of Nolan continues his level of playing, last night not withstanding, he is in frim contention to one of the POY awards.
Question: IYHO is the Mountain West Conference in it's bets year better that the ACC in it's worst year? Yes I know SDS but compared to UNC?
I adore Nolan so yes I am totally biased. I want his jersey so bad but I can't get it yet; no jinx.

I'm not impressed or convinced by SDS. They have really played nobody aside from BYU who wiped the floor with them. Linardi has them a 2 see but I don't buy that they will go very far. I get a distinct Iowa State vibe from a few years back.

Nolan deserves a lot more consideration for NPOY and his performance against UNC will help. He is still up in the air but for my money I think Singler should be a lock.

[PADukeMom]

I'm not impressed or convinced by SDS. They have really played nobody aside from BYU who wiped the floor with them. Linardi has them a 2 see but I don't buy that they will go very far. I get a distinct Iowa State vibe from a few years back.

Nolan deserves a lot more consideration for NPOY and his performance against UNC will help. He is still up in the air but for my money I think Singler should be a lock.

You think thus far Kyle is having a better year than Nolan considering that Nolan is playing out of position???? Seriously???
I know Kyle's career numbers are awesome but are we voting on POY from the 2010-11 season or the culimative career or am I posting in the wrong post???
DUKE would not be where they are right now if Mr. Smith did not radically set-up his game after Kyrie's injury(Is it that obvious that I will be purchasing a #2 jersey April 6th?)

[uh_no]

You think thus far Kyle is having a better year than Nolan considering that Nolan is playing out of position???? Seriously???
I know Kyle's career numbers are awesome but are we voting on POY from the 2010-11 season or the culimative career or am I posting in the wrong post???
DUKE would not be where they are right now if Mr. Smith did not radically set-up his game after Kyrie's injury(Is it that obvious that I will be purchasing a #2 jersey April 6th?)

Calm down.

Offensively, Nolan has had a very good year. Kyle has focused more on the defense knowing nolan is there to put up points. Since thornton has been put in the starting lineup, nolan is playing in his position again. Duke would also not be where they are if kyle had not stepped up his game after kyrie went down. the stuff kyle does doesn't always show up in the stat sheet, but tell me, how many points did harrison barnes put up on kyle last week? if you said '9' the answer would be correct. Harrison barnes was on fire coming into that game and kyle shut him down. I'm not sure nolan would have had that kind of dominant defensive performance against someone of his caliber (nothing against nolan).

kyle is one of the best defensive players in teh country, so don't knock him just becuase he doesn't have gaudy point totals.

[mkline09]

You think thus far Kyle is having a better year than Nolan considering that Nolan is playing out of position???? Seriously???
I know Kyle's career numbers are awesome but are we voting on POY from the 2010-11 season or the culimative career or am I posting in the wrong post???
DUKE would not be where they are right now if Mr. Smith did not radically set-up his game after Kyrie's injury(Is it that obvious that I will be purchasing a #2 jersey April 6th?)

Couldn't agree with you more about Nolan, but Kyle has been "there" for four years. Nolan has average to below average numbers his first two seasons and wasn't a huge impact until last season. He has come on strong late and this year he has been off the charts. He deserves the recognition, and consideration, that is all I was saying. This year may be enough to push him over the edge. But Singler to me doesn't need to have a discussion. He is there now based on his body of work.

[Jeff Frosh]

I can't imagine that Kyle & Nolan won't graduate. I say firmly maintain that of Nolan continues his level of playing, last night not withstanding, he is in frim contention to one of the POY awards.
Question: IYHO is the Mountain West Conference in it's bets year better that the ACC in it's worst year? Yes I know SDS but compared to UNC?
I adore Nolan so yes I am totally biased. I want his jersey so bad but I can't get it yet; no jinx.

Are you suggesting that Nolan did not play up to his POY-type season last night. The game I saw involved him missing most of the first half because of injury, and then dominating the game in the second half despite playing with a poked eye. 16 second-half points, which should have been 20+ if not for the missed dunk and the bogus charge call. I do not think that he harmed his POY status last night. Quite the opposite.

[JayZee]

I was thinking that if Nolan ends up being the first player in ACC history to lead the ACC in points and assists that that might push him over the edge in jersey retirement.

To that end, I wanted to see where he stands in the categories and what chance he has of losing either lead.

In scoring he's 2.5 pts in front of everyone, so I don't see that happening.

However, in assists, he's only .5 assists per game in front of Kendall. Given that Kendall is starting and putting up some serious assist numbers, I thought I'd run a some scenarios to see what Nolan has to do to keep his lead.

A couple assumptions. One, that the avg is calculated only on regular season stats, not including the ACC tourney. Is that right? Two, although I ran other scenarios, that Nolan stays around 5 assists a game.

At that rate, Kendall has to average over 7 assists per game. In general, he has to average 2+ assists a game more than Nolan for the rest of the season to take the assist lead.

These stats are update through Sunday's games...

[Kedsy]

Bob Verga also made two first team AA polls and did not get his Jersey retired. Also, I thought that Coach K instituted his "rule" (including graduation---I also remember???) after the Hall of Fame Museum (or whatever it is called) was put in a number of years ago for future retired jerseys. That would be the last ones before JJ and Shel. Anyone else heard that. If not, then I guess it didn't happen the way I remember it.

ricks

http://www.dukeupdate.com/Records/allamerica_teams.htm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_america.html

Well, according to the above websites, Verga did not make any first team AA. Both sites list him as making second team AA both in '66 and '67.

[Kedsy]

3. [Kyle] gets first team A-A, but doesn't win it all. I don't know, it's going to be really close. I'd say he doesn't get it (some of the other left out players were too), but he might anyway; that plus his stats and the ring might be enough.

http://www.dukeupdate.com/Records/allamerica_teams.htm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_america.html

This does not appear to be true. According to the above links, the only Duke players to make first team AA that haven't had their jerseys retired are Elton Brand (who did not graduate) and Jim Spanarkel (who was a UPI first team AA but according to AP didn't even make third team AA). If Kyle makes first team AA, his achievements would seem to place him in the pantheon (absent a "hard" rule about winning a POY award). If Nolan makes first team AA (which I expect he will) he'd have a good argument as well (again absent the "hard" rule). We'll just have to wait and see how K plays it.

[hq2]

If Kyle makes first team AA, his achievements would seem to place him in the pantheon (absent a "hard" rule about winning a POY award).

He does have more points than the other ones who made All-America teams but didn't get in, but he wouldn't be NPOY or set any records. It'll be really close.

Nolan would have to be NPOY to get it at this point. His first two years were much weaker than Kyle's.

[Cameron]

imho, nolan will not be retired even if he wins npoy simply because his impact as a player has really only been these past two seasons.


That's like saying Battier should have only one of his numbers sewed to a banner above Coach K Court because he averaged just 7 points a game as a freshman (I'd say the "3", in honor of Shane's lethal long-range J in later years and Dale Earnhardt's race car -- Can you imagine how many transition baskets Shane could have netted in a roadster?)

Yes, Battier was a periodic starter and valued defender on a regional final team as a freshman in '98, and a NDPOTY the following season. But Shane didn't begin to blossom into a truly feared force, the type of player that you knew was great by just watching him run about the court, until his junior year, when he complimented his defensive prowess with the addition of a coffin-closing outside jumper and ability to commandingly take games over offensively. Before those junior and senior seasons when Shane was almost unguardable in transition on the 22-foot pull-up, he was a career 8.3 points per game scorer and 28% three-point shooter (he made just 4 three-pointers out of 28 in '98.)

Nolan used that same sophomore-to-junior-year transition period as his steppingstone to greatness. He averaged 17.7 points per game last season as the most explosive scoring weapon on Duke's fourth national championship team, and was the most proficient lock-down defender in all of the ACC, if not the the best defensive player on the perimeter in the entire country. He willed us to victory over Baylor in the South Regional final, scoring 29 points including 4-of-6 shooting from the three-point line. At the Final Four, he was an All-Tournament Team selection. This year, he is the front-runner to win the 2011 national player of the year award. Nolan leads the ACC in both scoring (21.4) and assists (5.4), a feat nobody in league history has ever achieved. Not Ford, Thompson, Price, Dawkins, Corchiani, Anderson, Marbury, Childress, Dixon nor Paul. And Smith is not a traditional point guard in the most elementary sense. He is simply a great basketball player.

If Nolan ends up winning the national player of the year award this year, someone at least please give the man a "2" pennant to fly atop his car. Or a No. 2 pencil. Something. Damn.

[Kedsy]

He does have more points than the other ones who made All-America teams but didn't get in...

Who are these "other ones" who made first team AA and didn't have their numbers retired? The only one I'm aware of is Spanarkel, and there are some odd circumstances there. As far as I can tell, guys like Verga, Carrawell, etc., only made second team AA, not first. Do you have different information?

[DukieInBrasil]

Are you suggesting that Nolan did not play up to his POY-type season last night. The game I saw involved him missing most of the first half because of injury, and then dominating the game in the second half despite playing with a poked eye. 16 second-half points, which should have been 20+ if not for the missed dunk and the bogus charge call. I do not think that he harmed his POY status last night. Quite the opposite.
In addition to that he was the game high-scorer along with 5 assists and 3 rebs. He did not hurt his NPOY status with that game.

[SCMatt33]

Who are these "other ones" who made first team AA and didn't have their numbers retired? The only one I'm aware of is Spanarkel, and there are some odd circumstances there. As far as I can tell, guys like Verga, Carrawell, etc., only made second team AA, not first. Do you have different information?

Chris Carrawell was a consensus first team AA in 2000 according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_NCAA_Men%27s_Basketball_All-Americans). It appears as if he was named to the first team by every major organization except the AP.

[DukieInBrasil]

I was thinking that if Nolan ends up being the first player in ACC history to lead the ACC in points and assists that that might push him over the edge in jersey retirement.

To that end, I wanted to see where he stands in the categories and what chance he has of losing either lead.

In scoring he's 2.5 pts in front of everyone, so I don't see that happening.

However, in assists, he's only .5 assists per game in front of Kendall. Given that Kendall is starting and putting up some serious assist numbers, I thought I'd run a some scenarios to see what Nolan has to do to keep his lead.
A couple assumptions. One, that the avg is calculated only on regular season stats, not including the ACC tourney. Is that right? Two, although I ran other scenarios, that Nolan stays around 5 assists a game.
At that rate, Kendall has to average over 7 assists per game. In general, he has to average 2+ assists a game more than Nolan for the rest of the season to take the assist lead.
These stats are update through Sunday's games...
I've commented on that situation too. In UNCs win on Sat. KM had 3 assists, @ Miami Nolan had 5, so +2 for Nolan in the race. With only 5 games remaining Nolan improved his chances of the double-double league-leader status in Miami, despite an eye injury.

[tieguy]

I keep seeing (in this thread and others) that Shane was not a significant factor his sophomore year, but just a reminder, he was NABC NDPOY three times, starting as a sophomore. Yes, he wasn't scoring as many points as he would later, but he was already considered the best defensive player in the country as a soph. So, please... yes, I love Nolan, but there really isn't a comparison between Nolan and Shane as sophs.

[pfrduke]

I've commented on that situation too. In UNCs win on Sat. KM had 3 assists, @ Miami Nolan had 5, so +2 for Nolan in the race. With only 5 games remaining Nolan improved his chances of the double-double league-leader status in Miami, despite an eye injury.

In calculating these, is the entire season counted, or just ACC play? Nolan leads the league in scoring either way, but Marshall has a .5 a/g lead on him if you look at just conference play.

[Cameron]

I keep seeing (in this thread and others) that Shane was not a significant factor his sophomore year, but just a reminder, he was NABC NDPOY three times, starting as a sophomore. Yes, he wasn't scoring as many points as he would later, but he was already considered the best defensive player in the country as a soph. So, please... yes, I love Nolan, but there really isn't a comparison between Nolan and Shane as sophs.

Nobody said that Shane wasn't an important factor as a sophomore. I believe his three-time national defensive player of the year accomplishments have been mentioned several times in earlier parts of this thread. Shane was a more accomplished sophomore than Nolan.

The point is, at 9.1 points per game, there wasn't exactly a gigantic mass of people screaming jersey retirement in reference to Shane Battier as a sophomore. He was looked upon for what he was, a developing player with an extraordinary defensive ability, not the versatilely-gifted legend he would become.

There are posters here arguing against Nolan's jersey retirement based on lower productivity levels as an underclassman. That's fine, except for the fact that totally discredits the two years of All-Final Four, national championship-winning and (very possible) national player of the year play Nolan has displayed during his two years as an upperclassman.

That makes about as much sense as Wilt Chamberlain deciding to become a dolphin at the height of his basketball career.

[hq2]

Yes, but that's not understanding the way Shane played. He played his first two years at Duke the way he plays in the pros now; as a role player who cared about winning first. Shane is a pretty smart guy who knew what the scoring percentages of the other players were. He simply recognized that when you have three or four same age or older teammates who are future NBA players, the winning thing to do is help the ones score who can do it with a higher percentage. Shane knew at that time in his career that him shooting more wasn't the percentage thing to do, even though he could have scored more if he had wanted to; Brand at that time was just a better percentage option, and Shane knew it. K knew that Shane knew it too, and always gave him credit for recognizing it, which is one reason that team only lost two games the whole year. When it came time for his jersey to be retired, K and the team gave
Battier credit for being a great team player and helping the team as much as possible the first two years. That's another reason why he was a great (college) player who cared about the team and winning at every stage of his career.

[Kedsy]

Chris Carrawell was a consensus first team AA in 2000 according to Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2000_NCAA_Men%27s_Basketball_All-Americans). It appears as if he was named to the first team by every major organization except the AP.

Interesting. I'm not so impressed with the "consensus" thing, because there can be more than five players who meet those requirements. Also, who decides which are the "major" outlets? But getting named to the first team by USBWA and NABC ought to count for something. Not sure about Sporting News.

It's also interesting that the correlation between AP All American and Duke retired jersey seems very high, but the others not as much. Discounting Brand (who made all the teams but didn't graduate), the AP has no "false positives," while the USBWA has 3 (Verga, Marin, Carrawell, although note that in Verga's & Marin's day the USBWA named ten players to its AA team) and the NABC has 4 (Verga, Langdon, Dunleavy, and Carrawell). The UPI stopped in 1996 (and so it may have had more in the 1999-2010 timeframe), but it had only had one "false positive" (Spanarkel) that I know about. I couldn't easily find a list of Sporting News AAs, and I'm too lazy to search it out year by year.

[ricks68]

I posted this last year in Jon's retirement thread, and I will mention it again. Coach K spoke to my freshman class 3 years ago in Cameron and told us that there were two hard rules for jersey retirement. I don't know how long these rules have been in place, but three years ago, it was 1) you had to graduate and 2) you needed either a NPOY/NDPOY award OR you had to set a national record in some statistic. Other qualifications would be soft. Some guys have met these requirements, Wojo I think most recently, but the soft didn't necessarily add up as well.

I don't think Nolan or Kyle will have their jerseys retired without NPOY awards. Trust me, I like the guys, but they just don't meet the criteria (unless Jimmer and Jared Sullinger both get sidelined until April).

I guess my Crustie memory is pretty darn good on this one as this is exactly the way I remember it.


http://www.dukeupdate.com/Records/allamerica_teams.htm

http://www.basketball-reference.com/awards/all_america.html

Well, according to the above websites, Verga did not make any first team AA. Both sites list him as making second team AA both in '66 and '67.

Well, try other websites, as he is listed as first team AA in 1967 by the USBWA (United States Basketball Writers Association) and the NABC (National Association of Basketball Coaches). The USBWA lists only the top 10 with no differentiation, but the NABC does have a first team, and Verga is on it.

ricks

(I couldn't edit the title, so maybe Verga was also a "fisrt" team AA.)

[Kedsy]

Well, try other websites, as he is listed as first team AA in 1967 by the USBWA (United States Basketball Writers Association) and the NABC (National Association of Basketball Coaches). The USBWA lists only the top 10 with no differentiation, but the NABC does have a first team, and Verga is on it.

Well, you're right about USBWA and NABC, and you're also right that USBWA lists 10, so we don't know if Verga was really first or second team (as far as I can tell, USBWA was the only "major" outlet to list Marin on its "first team," for example, the year before they gave that honor to Verga). The NABC also anointed Langdon, Dunleavy, and Carrawell as first team AA, so maybe it has a pro-Duke bias. ;)

[PADukeMom]

Are you suggesting that Nolan did not play up to his POY-type season last night. The game I saw involved him missing most of the first half because of injury, and then dominating the game in the second half despite playing with a poked eye. 16 second-half points, which should have been 20+ if not for the missed dunk and the bogus charge call. I do not think that he harmed his POY status last night. Quite the opposite.

No no noooooo.....all I meant was Nolan had "only 18 points" as opposed to his usual 28-30. I was trying to be tongue-in-cheek funny but I was working on corporate taxes all day & my brain was fried. I have nothing but mad-mad-love for Nolan. Somehow, during the Baylor game last year, & I don't know how, surpassed Trajan as my favorite Dukie. I never thought that would ever happen. I want a Nolan jersey so badly but there is this whole jinx thing where I can not buy anything new DUKE until the end of the season. If Nolan isn't retired & Quinn Cook wears #2 I might faint (too soon) but hey that's just me. I darn near fainted when I saw Quinn grab his hand during the game on Friday & he is still playing in high school.

Kyle is Kyle.... steady, calm & reliable. He comes through when he is needed. I always said that Kyle was going to get hot in March & April and I was correct. IMHO Kyle has earned his spot in the rafters while I'm not 100% sure on Nolan but I have no problem if Nolan would decide to score 35 a game.

My favortie Battier quote " I'm not a scoring derelict".

[nocilla]

In calculating these, is the entire season counted, or just ACC play? Nolan leads the league in scoring either way, but Marshall has a .5 a/g lead on him if you look at just conference play.

I don't think there is an official award, so it is open to whomever is doing the interpretation.

In all games;

GP No. Avg/G
1. Nolan Smith 25 136 5.4
2. Kendall Marshall 24 119 5.0

In ACC games;

GP No. Avg/G
1. Kendall Marshall 10 59 5.9
2. Nolan Smith 11 59 5.4

[-jk]

For what it's worth, the ACC's web site lists individual leaders for season stat cagtegories (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2010-2011/confldrs.html#conf.wki) (scroll down a bit for assists), and it appears to include the entirety of the season.

-jk

[nocilla]

For what it's worth, the ACC's web site lists individual leaders for season stat cagtegories (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2010-2011/confldrs.html#conf.wki) (scroll down a bit for assists), and it appears to include the entirety of the season.

-jk

From their stats page (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2010-2011/confstat.html) you can click on overall leaders (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2010-2011/confldrs.html#conf.wki) or conference only leaders (http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/stats/2010-2011/confonly.html#conf.wki).

[throatybeard]

Funny things happened with awards in the 1960s. Like Vacendak being left one first and second team All-ACC, and then winning ACC POY.

[ice-9]

I rarely ever disagree with Coach K, but I do on his use of NPOY/NDPOY as a requirement for jersey retirement.

Mainly because there's only so much a player can do about what others are doing individually on their teams. Should Nolan be playing differently just because Jimmer Fredette has to score like a maniac given the lack of other offensive talent on his team? Is it Nolan's fault that Ohio State has the balance that allows Jared Sullinger to put up his numbers? Those things shouldn't affect Nolan's actions.

All he can do is his best to keep Duke winning. And if Duke wins, what more can you ask for?

And that would be my criteria for jersey retirement (in addition to graduation):
- Team success, i.e. national championships and Final Fours
- Major, no, primary contribution to that success

If Duke wins the national championship this year, it's hard to justify (to me) why Nolan and Kyle shouldn't get their jerseys retired. They would have won two championships (two!!) and as leaders of those teams.

Who cares really what Jimmer or Jared or Kemba are doing as long as we win?

[uh_no]

- Team success, i.e. national championships and Final Fours


I strongly disagree with this sentiment. You don't honor team accomplishments by singling out one or two players and honoring them. You honor team accomplishments independently. That's why we have a banner that says 2010 ACC champions and another at the END of the stadium which says 2010 National champions. Thats where the team accomplishments go, and they're far more worthwhile honors than a retired number. To say that the national championship gets nolan a retired jersey is much like saying the contributions of the rest of the team are somewhat lessened. If nolan or kyle get retired, it should be about them and their INDIVIDUAL accomplishments, not hanging on the coattails of what the team has accomplished (however much they contributed)

[AZLA]

What always impresses me about Coach K is his unmatched ability to analyze and evolve. He is a steward of continual improvement in every facet -- including his own "rules." They aren't chiseled in stone. He can do whatever he wants in regards to building out the overall legacy in the rafters. Each jersey represents a particular achievement. It's good to set standards, but you'll notice he included the "soft" caveat, because he knew there probably was going to be a day where a player did something special he didn't previously consider. In this case, it's two players, who came in together, won a championship (so far) together, chose to forgo the NBA and returned together for the team to play out their senior season. This in a year before the looming NBA strike. I think we can all agree this speaks to something above and beyond previously stated rules; or whether or not someone wins NPOY or leads in a stat category. In this case, it would depend on their body of work, their gesture to return (in this day and age), and what it represents to Coach K personally and to Duke's legacy.

[ice-9]

I strongly disagree with this sentiment. You don't honor team accomplishments by singling out one or two players and honoring them. You honor team accomplishments independently. That's why we have a banner that says 2010 ACC champions and another at the END of the stadium which says 2010 National champions. Thats where the team accomplishments go, and they're far more worthwhile honors than a retired number. To say that the national championship gets nolan a retired jersey is much like saying the contributions of the rest of the team are somewhat lessened. If nolan or kyle get retired, it should be about them and their INDIVIDUAL accomplishments, not hanging on the coattails of what the team has accomplished (however much they contributed)

A key fact that you seem to be missing is that team success as a requirement is tied together with individual performance. There's no "hanging on the coattails" here.

One scenario:
- Team achieves no success
+ Awesome individual performance
= No jersey retirement according to me

Another:
+ Team achieves multiple national championships
- Not the primary contributor to that success
= No jersey retirement according to me

Scenario that gets it:
+ Team achieves much success
+ Awesome individual performance
= Jersey retirement according to me

Hope that's clear.

[uh_no]

One scenario:
- Team achieves no success
+ Awesome individual performance
= No jersey retirement according to me


So why is JJ's number retired? I guess a final four is enough of a success? what if something happened and duke bowed out in the e8 that year, would you be saying we shouldn't retire JJ's number?

Honestly I strongly disagree with your opinion here. Jersey retirement is strictly an individual accomplishment.

[PADukeMom]

So why is JJ's number retired? I guess a final four is enough of a success? what if something happened and duke bowed out in the e8 that year, would you be saying we shouldn't retire JJ's number?

Honestly I strongly disagree with your opinion here. Jersey retirement is strictly an individual accomplishment.

Correct me if I am wrong here but isn't JJ the leader in all time scoring at DUKE???? He also won NOPY & graduated. He is also the second most hated DUKE player of all time so do the math.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Correct me if I am wrong here but isn't JJ the leader in all time scoring at DUKE???? He also won NOPY & graduated. He is also the second most hated DUKE player of all time so do the math.

Being hated at Duke = getting your jersey retired? Not sure about that one.

I agree with uh_oh on this subject. Jersey retirement has more to do with individual success than team success. Fortunately, individual success often leads to team success. There is certainly a correlation between the two.

Singler's individual success over 4 years speaks for itself to get his jersey retired. Nolan's performance in the last two years is incredible. IMO, that deserves enough consideration to have one's jersey retired.

[Indoor66]

Correct me if I am wrong here but isn't JJ the leader in all time scoring at DUKE???? He also won NOPY & graduated. He is also the second most hated DUKE player of all time so do the math.

He is the all time leading scorer at Duke and when he graduated was the all time leading scorer in ACC history (since eclipsed by the dancing heel).

[PADukeMom]

Being hated at Duke = getting your jersey retired? Not sure about that one.


I was joking!

[uh_no]

Correct me if I am wrong here but isn't JJ the leader in all time scoring at DUKE???? He also won NOPY & graduated. He is also the second most hated DUKE player of all time so do the math.

I was responding to (and refuting) a point that someone made that team success was a critical factor in jersey retirement, using JJ as an example of a great player whose teams only had mild success.

[ice-9]

So why is JJ's number retired?

Well, it's what I would do, not what Coach K is necessarily doing.


I guess a final four is enough of a success? what if something happened and duke bowed out in the e8 that year, would you be saying we shouldn't retire JJ's number?

Honestly I strongly disagree with your opinion here. Jersey retirement is strictly an individual accomplishment.

Reasonable minds can disagree, but yes, in my opinion if none of JJ Redick's teams made the Final Four he shouldn't get his jersey retired. Controversial statement I'm sure, but it's consistent with what I would value if I was a coach in this sport. I.e., that to achieve something as prestigious as jersey retirement, you must have BOTH team and individual succes. Individual success does not matter without team success.

Part of it comes down to incentives, which I think a lot about as an employer. For great players, jersey retirement can be a goal (even if they won't explicitly admit it) -- if you make it strictly about individual success, there's an incentive to do things that get you there at the team's expense. The goal in this sport is for the team to win, not to put up impressive individual numbers, so I believe goals should be set accordingly.

[uh_no]

Part of it comes down to incentives, which I think a lot about as an employer. For great players, jersey retirement can be a goal (even if they won't explicitly admit it) -- if you make it strictly about individual success, there's an incentive to do things that get you there at the team's expense. The goal in this sport is for the team to win, not to put up impressive individual numbers, so I believe goals should be set accordingly.

If players come to duke with the idea of sacrificing the team in order to get their jersey's retired, there are much bigger issues. That kind of person wouldn't last very long in our system.

[ice-9]

If players come to duke with the idea of sacrificing the team in order to get their jersey's retired, there are much bigger issues. That kind of person wouldn't last very long in our system.

I mostly agree with the above, but assuming team success is the ultimate goal, why not be internally consistent about it? *Shrug*

[jimsumner]

I was responding to (and refuting) a point that someone made that team success was a critical factor in jersey retirement, using JJ as an example of a great player whose teams only had mild success.

In Redick's four seasons at Duke, the team went 116-23, won three ACC Tournaments (losing the 4th in OT), went 10-4 in the NCAAs and advanced to one Final Four. There's some subjectivity here but defining this period as consisting of "only mild success" seems to me to greatly understate the accomplishments of those teams.

Note that Art Heyman, Bob Verga, Mike Gminski, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Johnny Dawkins and Mark Alarie all played on one Final Four and none won an NCAA title. I think they played on some teams with more than mild success and all had sterling careers at Duke.

[uh_no]

In Redick's four seasons at Duke, the team went 116-23, won three ACC Tournaments (losing the 4th in OT), went 10-4 in the NCAAs and advanced to one Final Four. There's some subjectivity here but defining this period as consisting of "only mild success" seems to me to greatly understate the accomplishments of those teams.

Note that Art Heyman, Bob Verga, Mike Gminski, Jim Spanarkel, Gene Banks, Johnny Dawkins and Mark Alarie all played on one Final Four and none won an NCAA title. I think they played on some teams with more than mild success and all had sterling careers at Duke.

No doubt, Jim. I think my point is that the classes of 07 08 and 09 are probably the least accomplished under the K era (relatively), and if you are going to retire JJ, then it shows that individual accomplishment is worth so so much more than team accomplishment in terms of retiring a jersey.

[hq2]

J.J. and his teams did as good as they were capable of. His freshman year, the team had just lost 3 All Conference level players, and was clearly rebuilding. His sophomore year, the team came very close to winning the national championship; they had an 8 point lead against UConn with 3 minutes to go, and one or two more baskets would have won the game (and the title, since Uconn was the best team.) His junior year, when J.J. really became the J.J. we know, the team was shorthanded and finally ran out of gas in the NCAAs. It's only his last year that the team clearly underachieved in the NCAAs, and at that, they still won the ACC and were No. 1 in the country much of the year. (Note also that in the NCAA game they lost, the rest of the team shot blanks too; what were they, like 2 for 18 from 3 point land?)

[uh_no]

J.J. and his teams did as good as they were capable of. His freshman year, the team had just lost 3 All Conference level players, and was clearly rebuilding. His sophomore year, the team came very close to winning the national championship; they had an 8 point lead against UConn with 3 minutes to go, and one or two more baskets would have won the game (and the title, since Uconn was the best team.) His junior year, when J.J. really became the J.J. we know, the team was shorthanded and finally ran out of gas in the NCAAs. It's only his last year that the team clearly underachieved in the NCAAs, and at that, they still won the ACC and were No. 1 in the country much of the year. (Note also that in the NCAA game they lost, the rest of the team shot blanks too; what were they, like 2 for 18 from 3 point land?)

EXACTLY! I'm trying to prove the fallacy of tying jersey retirement to team success, especially NCAA success. JJ had a phenomenal career, but based on Duke standards, they didn't have huge amounts of tournament success. (yes 1 final 4 in 4 years is not huge amounts of success by duke standards)

[PADukeMom]

Isn't jersey retirement about the individual player & not the team as a whole??? The team honors going to the rafters come in the form of ACC Tournament & NCAA Championship banners.
Of course coming to DUKE means you would hope to have your jersey retired. That would mean you had a pretty successful career at DUKE & came away with a degree from a fairly impressive school. If you come to DUKE to be a "middle-of-the-pack" type of player then why come to DUKE if you aspiration is to become the 8th man off the bench????

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Isn't jersey retirement about the individual player & not the team as a whole??? The team honors going to the rafters come in the form of ACC Tournament & NCAA Championship banners.
Of course coming to DUKE means you would hope to have your jersey retired. That would mean you had a pretty successful career at DUKE & came away with a degree from a fairly impressive school. If you come to DUKE to be a "middle-of-the-pack" type of player then why come to DUKE if you aspiration is to become the 8th man off the bench????
Many of the walk-ons do just that. They turn down scholarship offers elsewhere to play a minor roll at their dream school, often starting as a team manager - just ask Casey Peters. I realize that is not quite what you meant, but it is what you said. And Tyler Thornton knew knew he wouldn't be a star this year, but would have a chance to build a solid, significant career over 4 years. His star is perhaps shining brighter than even his fantasies could have imagined for this year - or maybe not!

[InSpades]

Isn't jersey retirement about the individual player & not the team as a whole??? The team honors going to the rafters come in the form of ACC Tournament & NCAA Championship banners.


My issue with this idea is that to have a great team (that hangs banners in the rafters) don't we need to have great players? Kyle has already won as many games in his career as JJ won during his time at Duke (with obviously many more to come, and so far 3 less losses).

When Kyle came to Duke they were coming off their worst season in a very long time (albeit with some good young talent). They lost arguably their best player (McRoberts). He helped turn things around immediately and put Duke back to their usual level of success.

JJ joined a team w/ Chris Duhon and Dahntay Jones that obviously lost a ton of talent but still had plenty left.

I guess my point is that Kyle and Nolan have already had more success than JJ and Shelden (with another postseason to come). I'd also argue they had less talent surrounding them (Deng, Duhon, Dahntay Jones, etc.). To say that those 2002-2006 teams had 2 rafter-worthy players and that the 2007-2011 teams had 0 rafter-worthy players just doesn't seem right.

Maybe Kyle doesn't get quite the praise that JJ and Shelden did but maybe he should. Win games? He did that. Win championships? Yep that too. Score points? A bunch. Rebounds? Those too. What more do you want him to do? He might not put up 25 points per game but he's led 4 Duke teams to great seasons. He might not be "Mr. Intangible" like Shane Battier was, but I don't think anyone would say he doesn't do the little things well. For my money if Kyle isn't in the rafters when he's done it's a shame.

You've got 1 pick to start your college team... you can either have a freshman JJ Redick or a freshman Kyle Singler. Who do you want? I'm sure many would disagree, but I think you could make a strong case for taking Kyle Singler. He'll do whatever you need him to do to win you games.

[PADukeMom]

You are killing me here! SMH!

Okay I will disagree that McBob was the best Duke player at any time. Can I have a 3rd option of Trajan Langdon???

Alright who would I choose if I had to build a team around 1 freshman & Kyrie isn't an option; would I pick a kid who is a dead-on accurate at 3 point range & free throws with a great inside guy but the rest of the team just depends on him too much? Do I pick a kid who is a threat on offense & defense & does the untaingables that just aren't documented or reported on & would end up winning a NC?

I'll surprise you & say I would pick Kyle however you can not possibly think that JJ didn't deserve retirement. Kyle is the ultimate teamate. JJ love the kid & this isn't his fault but JJ's senior year was all about JJ. I went to the Meadowlands to see the Duke/Texas game & I told my son then the only team that will beat Duke is Duke. They rely on JJ way too much & I was spot on right.

This thread is about Nolan though & I think we have to wait until April 6th to make that determination. I have mad-crazy love for Nolan but he has 8 more weeks to earn that coveted spot. If or when that happens I will be in Durham wearing my Nolan Smith jersey.

[InSpades]

You are killing me here! SMH!

Okay I will disagree that McBob was the best Duke player at any time. Can I have a 3rd option of Trajan Langdon???

Alright who would I choose if I had to build a team around 1 freshman & Kyrie isn't an option; would I pick a kid who is a dead-on accurate at 3 point range & free throws with a great inside guy but the rest of the team just depends on him too much? Do I pick a kid who is a threat on offense & defense & does the untaingables that just aren't documented or reported on & would end up winning a NC?

I'll surprise you & say I would pick Kyle however you can not possibly think that JJ didn't deserve retirement. Kyle is the ultimate teamate. JJ love the kid & this isn't his fault but JJ's senior year was all about JJ. I went to the Meadowlands to see the Duke/Texas game & I told my son then the only team that will beat Duke is Duke. They rely on JJ way too much & I was spot on right.

This thread is about Nolan though & I think we have to wait until April 6th to make that determination. I have mad-crazy love for Nolan but he has 8 more weeks to earn that coveted spot. If or when that happens I will be in Durham wearing my Nolan Smith jersey.

I'm just saying on the team before Kyle got here (2006-2007) that McBob was maybe the best player and he left. His competition is Demarcus Nelson (junior year) and Jon Scheyer (freshman year). It's probably not really all that close, McBob wins.

My girlfriend at the time got me tickets to Texas-Duke. It was amazing. I'm a HUGE JJ fan. He no doubt belongs in the rafters. I just think Kyle no doubt belongs right there with him. He won't have 1 season as good as the best of Battier, JWill, Redick, etc. but his career will stack right up there with the greatest players to put on a Duke uniform.

Nolan is a much more difficult call. He was very inconsistent his 1st 2 years and has improved so much. Hopefully they win another national championship and then I don't think you can deny them.

[toooskies]

Don't blame JJ because the team strategy of depending on JJ to never have a cold shooting night was probably going to backfire. It was going to happen, and that team didn't have a better strategy to win games. According to KenPom, Duke was 278th in the country in offensive rebounding in 2006. When JJ missed, we were terrible at getting it back.

Whereas, the 2010 team had the best cure for bad shooting nights: Brian Zoubek. And, we were lucky enough to not run into a terrible shooting night all tournament, either.

[PADukeMom]

I'm just saying on the team before Kyle got here (2006-2007) that McBob was maybe the best player and he left. His competition is Demarcus Nelson (junior year) and Jon Scheyer (freshman year). It's probably not really all that close, McBob wins.

My girlfriend at the time got me tickets to Texas-Duke. It was amazing. I'm a HUGE JJ fan. He no doubt belongs in the rafters. I just think Kyle no doubt belongs right there with him. He won't have 1 season as good as the best of Battier, JWill, Redick, etc. but his career will stack right up there with the greatest players to put on a Duke uniform.

Nolan is a much more difficult call. He was very inconsistent his 1st 2 years and has improved so much. Hopefully they win another national championship and then I don't think you can deny them.

Okay....now imagine this as an example...Duke wins the 2011 NC. Kyrie Stays another year & along with Austin Rivers Duke wins the 2012 NC. Miles Plumlee would have graduated & been on 3 NC teams. He would be the only person with that distinction; would he go to the rafters??? Really I am just joking around but it is one of those stranger than life things that could happen.

I agree Nolan has got to earn his way up there buttt.....if Kyle is retired & not Nolan there are going to be some very unhappy Duke fans but then again if you are a Duke fan you aren't ever unhappy.

[uh_no]

I agree Nolan has got to earn his way up there buttt.....if Kyle is retired & not Nolan there are going to be some very unhappy Duke fans but then again if you are a Duke fan you aren't ever unhappy.

Meh. There were plenty of unhappy duke fans when scheyer didn't get retired....but a year later? its not really a big deal and we still all love jon scheyer

[PADukeMom]

Meh. There were plenty of unhappy duke fans when scheyer didn't get retired....but a year later? its not really a big deal and we still all love jon scheyer

Love Jon but if his number was retired then I would be back on my retire Langdon tirade. Nolan & Kyle are the only ones in control of the eventual fate of their respective jerseys.

[ice-9]

Isn't jersey retirement about the individual player & not the team as a whole???

Note that my post was not about a description of how things are, but of what I would do if it was up to me.

As is, jersey retirement is driven almost entirely by individual performance -- i.e. graduation and NPOY/NDPOY/record-breaking-stats. I don't think that was ever in dispute; there's no "fallacy" to "refute" there.

My issue with this is that, strictly speaking, if Nolan and Kyle do not fulfill that NPOY/NDPOY/record-breaking-stats requirement but still win us a second national championship, they won't get their jerseys retired.

[dcdevil2009]

Since graduation is a requirement for jersey retirement, which means 4 years (3 in Jason Williams' case), isn't the question that needs to be asked which player's career you'd rather have. One possible way to do it would be to rate each season of each player on a scale of 1-10 and come up with a threshold number for jersey retirement. Some benchmarks could be 10 for the year in which a player wins NPOY or NDPOY, 9 for first team AA, 8 for second team AA, 7 for ACC-POY, etc. It's pretty rudimentary and doesn't include enough room for subjective opinions on players, but it could be a good starting point for the jersey retirement debate.

[Lord Ash]

Love Jon but if his number was retired then I would be back on my retire Langdon tirade. Nolan & Kyle are the only ones in control of the eventual fate of their respective jerseys.

See, this is why I wanted to keep my Trajan/Jon/Nolan argument as a separate thread... otherwise it just gets lost in ten different conversations in one thread:(

What order would you all consider Jon/Trajan/Nolan as far as need to be retired, understanding we don't quite know how Nolan's career will end?

[Olympic Fan]

There are obviously no hard-and-fast rules for Duke jersey retirement, other than graduation.

But the Nolan/Kyle situation does create an interesting dilemma for Coach K (who calls the shot).

When you check the list of 13 retired numbers, you see that eight were honored as national player of the year by some major organization, but that 12 of the 13 were consensus first team All-Americans. The one exception was Jeff Mullins, who was a first-team Converse and Basketball Writers pick, but merely second team by AP, NABC and UPI (the old equivilent to ESPN/USA Today). He was the top man on the consensus second team.

Three players have been consensus first team without getting their jersey retired -- Elton Brand (who was consensus national player of the year ... but didn't graduate). Chris Carrawell and Bob Verga.

That relates to the Singler/Nolan debate because it looks like Singler -- who has had the better four-year run -- will never be a first-team All-American, while Smith, who has finished his career with two great years WILL be a consensus first-team All-America this year -- and could win a significant NPOY award (or two).

If that's the case, can you retire Kyle and not Nolan? But Kyle has had the better overall career -- he's going to end his Duke career with the second-highest individual win total in history (Nolan, because of the games he missed as a soph, is slightly behind him). Can you retire Nolan and not Kyle?

I think you either have to retire both or neither -- I'd vote for both, provided Nolan does indeed finish as a first-team A-A (and both graduate!).

But it's not my call ... it's Coach K's.

[Dukeface88]

But Kyle has had the better overall career -- he's going to end his Duke career with the second-highest individual win total in history

Kyle can still match Shane if we win out. He's got 116 wins by my count; we've got 15 potential games left and Shane had 131 wins (although he's tied with Wayne Turner of Kentucky, so if Kyle falls short he's "only" third). Among the Devils, Duhon's currently in second with 123 and Ferry-Laetner-Hurley are tied for third with 122.

Stats stolen from incredibly prescient thread here (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?5639-133-15/page2) (your post actually).

I'm guessing that would count as a "significant record" for people who insist there are specific requirements.

[PADukeMom]

See, this is why I wanted to keep my Trajan/Jon/Nolan argument as a separate thread... otherwise it just gets lost in ten different conversations in one thread:(

What order would you all consider Jon/Trajan/Nolan as far as need to be retired, understanding we don't quite know how Nolan's career will end?

Ask me this question on April 6th. Okay if you ask me right now I am going to say none of the above. Trajan has always been my all time favorite player however I have extremely mad love for Nolan. Gotta love a kid who has his on camera on ESPN3. This is leading me to believe POY is beginning to tilt towards Nolan & trust me April 6th I am ordering my Nolan jersey.
When it comes down to it Trajan walked & Jon didn't do enough to be retired.

This thread is about Nolan & no, not yet.

[Greg_Newton]

"The NPOY race has become a two horse race, with Jimmer Fredette currently a nose ahead of Nolan Smith."

- Jimmy Dykes, tonight.

That was kind of nice to hear from the ESPN talking heads. If Nolan wins even one of the NPOY awards and is consensus first team, I don't see how you don't retire him - particularly with the enormous intangible lift he's given Duke's program.

I think Kyle is the trickier question, especially even we don't see a late-season surge from him. However, something tells me he won't let his career end with a whimper. We'll see.

[PADukeMom]

Okay I am now going to give you something to ponder on a useless Thursday.

Supposing K decides to retire just 1 jersey this year. Does he retire the player who was rock solid the first 3 years of his time at Duke however, even though he surpassed many honored players in scoring his senior year was less than spetacular.

Does he reitre the jersey of a player who was so-so his first 2 years at Duke, became a major player his junior year & his senior year exploded and leads the ACC is scoring & assists and finishes second in NPOY?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Okay I am now going to give you something to ponder on a useless Thursday.

Supposing K decides to retire just 1 jersey this year. Does he retire the player who was rock solid the first 3 years of his time at Duke however, even though he surpassed many honored players in scoring his senior year was less than spetacular.

Does he reitre the jersey of a player who was so-so his first 2 years at Duke, became a major player his junior year & his senior year exploded and leads the ACC is scoring & assists and finishes second in NPOY?

Great question. I love these hypothetical questions!

I'm in the minority that goes with the latter option. I like the idea of a school rewarding the development of players more so than rewarding consistency without that same level of improvement. In my opinion, it's a school-develops-players vs. school-is-great-at-recruiting argument.

Furthermore, the impact that the latter player has had on the program significantly surpasses any player on this team. That needs to be taken into consideration as well (and knowing Coach K, I'm sure he will).

That said, I thoroughly believe that in 11 months, we will see 2 new retired jerseys hanging from the rafters.

[Jderf]

[Sorry in advance for the dissertation... started writing and then it just got out of hand :).]

It seems to me that this thread is struggling with a central dichotomy: career-long contribution vs on-the-court dominance. Which one should be more important in terms of jersey retirement? For this question, I think Nolan and Kyle (and this thread) make the perfect case study.

Consider Kyle. Statistically speaking, he has had an absolutely astonishing career. On the all-time lists, it can't be denied that his numbers sit in lofty company: 3rd in career starts, 7th in minutes played, 5th in total points, 6th in 3-pointers made, 9th in total rebounds, etc. And those rankings can only (and will only) go up. Surely, one would think that Kyle's jersey would have to be retired.

However, many hesitate because, while Kyle has had an excellent four seasons (i.e. he has made an impressive career-long contribution), he has never truly displayed on-the-court dominance. Sure, he has had big games, and he's always been one of the biggest names on the team; but he has never utterly destroyed opponents for a significant portion of a season.

(I can't help but wonder what would have happened if, instead of roughly averaging 16 and 7 his whole career, Kyle had averaged 11 and 5 his first two seasons, and 21 and 9 his last two seasons. Would we still be having this discussion? But, in the end, that's just not how it played out.)

Basically, Kyle gives us a candidate with sufficient career-long contributions, but without on-the-court dominance.

Nolan, on the other hand, is exactly the inverse. This season, he has been simply unstoppable. Long-rage game, mid-range game, transition game, defensive game -- Nolan's got all of those. And he's been putting up NPOY-worthy numbers: 21.4 ppg, 5.4 apg, 4.7 rpg. As has been noted, he could also become the only player IN HISTORY to lead the ACC in both scoring and assists. This, my friends, is the definition of a dominant season; surely Nolan's jersey will get retired, right?

And yet, there is still well-justified hesitation. Yes, Nolan has on-the-court dominance, but his career-long contributions are unimpressive because he didn't become a reliable contributor until his junior year. Whereas Kyle is in the top-10 for several all-time-Duke categories, Nolan has only made one (so far): a humble 9th in free-throw %. In terms of all-time greatness, that's not going to cut it.

So between Nolan and Kyle we have two players that have had the career-long contributions and on-the-court dominance necessary for retirement, but neither one of them has both. It's an odd situation, and a lot can change between now and the end of the season (with the possibility of a championship or NPOY award); but for now, the tension in this thread is between the two different ways of evaluating a player's resume. Do you need one? The other? Or both?

[hq2]

Basically, Kyle gives us a candidate with sufficient career-long contributions, but without on-the-court dominance.



That gets it in a nut shell. A long string of very good, but not great, performances. Which is basically what Singler is; a very good player, but not a great one. So does a very good player's jersey belong up there with great ones?


, Nolan has on-the-court dominance, but his career-long contributions are unimpressive because he didn't become a reliable contributor until his junior year.


Basically, Battier is the only similar case. However, as stated earlier, he was NPDOY his sophomore year, and did do more his first two years. Remember, those years Battier
was playing with a lot of (older and same age) future NBA players. He could have scored more if he had wanted to. If you had put him on the team with Nolan his first two years,
he would have scored a lot more out of necessity. The difference between Nolan's first two years and Battier's was that Battier scored less because he chose to; Nolan scored
less because he wasn't up to it yet. I'd say, however, that NPOY and another ring would still get Nolan in, however, because that would make his last two years slightly more than Battier's.

[DukieInBrasil]

So between Nolan and Kyle we have two players that have had the career-long contributions and on-the-court dominance necessary for retirement, but neither one of them has both. It's an odd situation, and a lot can change between now and the end of the season (with the possibility of a championship or NPOY award); but for now, the tension in this thread is between the two different ways of evaluating a player's resume. Do you need one? The other? Or both?
Easy, retire the jersey of Nolan Singler, jersey #212

[cato]

Which is basically what Singler is; a very good player, but not a great one. So does a very good player's jersey belong up there with great ones?

I disagree strongly with this. Singler may be going through a scoring slump right now, but IMO he has been a great player for Duke, capped (so far) by a starring turn as the Final Four MOP.

Obviously, "great" is a subjective term, but I think that Singler is a clear step above many "very good" players who were extremely valuable to the team.

Now, does "great" mean automatic jersey retirement? No. That is reserved for the all-time great players who graduate. For example, I would say that Trajan Langdon and Elton Brand were both great players at Duke. Neither's jersey is in the rafters, for different reasons.

[hq2]

Obviously, "great" is a subjective term, but I think that Singler is a clear step above many "very good" players who were extremely valuable to the team.

Yes, he might be. But nonetheless, I don't think he's a great player. He's kind of stuck in between; he's scored more points than all of the very good players, but he's never really stepped up to the level of greatness shown by the jerseys in the rafters, save possibly for last year's final four. And, it looks likely he will not be first team A-A this year either; almost all the great players are recognized like that at least once.

I think Nolan and Kyle will have to win another title to get it. If they do, I don't see how they can't not get it. It was kind of like Shelden setting the rebounding and shotblocking records; he wasn't as dominant as some of the really great players, but doing that forced them to give it to him anyway. And, I don't see how they couldn't not get it if they repeat; it's just too great a feat for it not to happen. But individually, I don't either one of them will get it. In the end, if they hang together and win, then well, they'll hang together after it's over!

[Greg_Newton]

Yes, he might be. But nonetheless, I don't think he's a great player. He's kind of stuck in between; he's scored more points than all of the very good players, but he's never really stepped up to the level of greatness shown by the jerseys in the rafters, save possibly for last year's final four.

I actually agree. I've kept this to myself thus far, but I figure now's as good a time as any to post it; love Kyle Singler as a person, and he has given his heart and soul to the program; he battled out of position in the post for years, and then basically saved our season by voluntarily returning and leading Nolan back this year. However... I've always seen Singler as a very, very, very good role player, rather than a "great player" of any kind. An obscenely wealthy man's Dave McClure, if you will.

What does he do exceptionally well? He's an excellent rebounder and defender for his position, first and foremost. He's a big, disruptive presence that can hold perimeter players in check while also giving our bigs some help around the rim, and he's a warrior. In a sense, he's the ultimate glue guy - he makes a couple little deflections or rebounds per game that are just winning plays.

I've never really been a fan of his offensive game though. He's very good at moving off of the ball, and a good but streaky shooter with deep range but questionable shot selection at times. In this sense, I believe he's sometimes been overused in our offense at the expense of ball movement and big man development; I don't think he's ever been a good enough shooter to warrant a JJ-like usage of screens to get open, and he's fairly one-dimensional if he doesn't get an open shot. He's been largely a "finisher" of plays, rather than a creator. He usually needs ball screens to make a dribble move, and rarely gets to the rim or draws fouls off drives; almost all of his shots are jump shots over a non-broken down defense. If it goes in, great, but if not, it's hard to get the rebound.

All of that still adds up to a very good player, a guy who's given everything to the program, and a proven winner. However, when you compare him to someone like Nolan - who is both an unguardable, dynamic offensive player (that needs no help to put up 25points and 8 assists) and a lockdown on-ball defender - I just don't see how they're at comparable levels.

[Jderf]

... All of that still adds up to a very good player, a guy who's given everything to the program, and a proven winner. However, when you compare him to someone like Nolan - who is both an unguardable, dynamic offensive player (that needs no help to put up 25points and 8 assists) and a lockdown on-ball defender - I just don't see how they're at comparable levels.

You make some pretty good points, but I don't think it renders the issue of jersey retirement any more clear. While Kyle himself, as a player, may never have been "great," his contribution to Duke basketball has been.

Consider it this way: If you removed Kyle from any of the four teams that he has played for at Duke, that team would be absolutely crippled. You could not extract him from any of them without rendering it an entirely different team -- and an entirely less effective one, at that. That makes four different teams which featured Mr. Singler as a foundational cornerstone, four teams which would have crumbled in his absence. Not many Duke players can say that. Nolan, as much as I love him, definitely can't.

Of the ones who can, all have their jerseys in the rafters... for the most part. I can think of three exceptions, and they're the usual suspects: Jon, Trajan, and Alarie. But between those three and Kyle, I feel that Kyle easily has the best resumé. He has better numbers than Jon, and currently leads Trajan and Alarie 1-0 in national championships (here's to hoping that that changes).

So, essentially, I'm saying the same thing that this whole thread is proof of: it's a borderline case. He's right on the fence.

We may not know whether or not he will get his number retired, but either way, I think we can say that Kyle will become the new benchmark.

[DevilWearsPrada]

I think #2 and #12 will be hanging in the rafters at Duke!! Their body of work over 4 years, is outstanding.

Kyle has been stellar since day 1. Nolan has picked it up and been better and better with each and every year.

These 2 young men deserve every accolade and more. I applaude them for staying in college, doing well, and improving each and every year. And representing Duke University in an excellent and respectful way. I want them to have another National title, banner, watch and ring.

I vote to have both Singler and Smith or Smith and Singler jerseys retired next year. Can we vote? lol

[hq2]

Of the ones who can, all have their jerseys in the rafters... for the most part. I can think of three exceptions, and they're the usual suspects: Jon, Trajan, and Alarie. But between those three and Kyle, I feel that Kyle easily has the best resumé.

Let's have a look at this, because I think Alarie is the best comparison to Kyle. Both were 6-8 power/shooting forwards. They both started and played four years and averaged double figures. Alarie's teams won; his senior year, the team set the record with 37 wins, and came one *((&&&* airball away from winning the championship.

In fact, in many ways Alarie was a better player than Singler. He was clearly a better shooter, as his field goal percentage indicates, and almost never had bad games; Alarie never had the kind of 4 for 11, 6 for 17 clankeroonie type games that Singler has had with regularity. He was just as good a rebounder, getting about 6 to 7 a game, and was maybe not quite as good a defender or full court player because he was a little slower. His scoring averages his last two years were similar too; he averaged around 16-18 a game, just like Singler. He got his points consistently too, with a few high 20s games tossed in too.

Alarie finished his career as the #3 all time Duke scorer at the time, ahead of Heyman, Mullins, Groat (before him) and Hill, Battier, Jason Williams, Bobby Hurley and Shelden Williams (after him), all of whom have their jerseys retired. And yet, no one then or now believes his jersey should be retired. Why? Because head-to-head, he simply was not a great player. He never made any first team A-A teams, and I think he may have been on one or two seconds (I know he was on at least one third team). He just wasn't. Head to head, he wasn't better than a lot of other players. In fact, the ACC being incredibly good his senior year, with Duke Carolina and Tech ranked one-two-three most of the year, I don't even think he was first team all conference. Career scoring totals matter, but in the end how they played head-to-head matters just as much too, and Alarie was not better than a lot of players of that era. And that's why his jersey isn't hung. And, barring another championship, I don't think Singler's jersey will be either.

[Greg_Newton]

...So, essentially, I'm saying the same thing that this whole thread is proof of: it's a borderline case. He's right on the fence.

We may not know whether or not he will get his number retired, but either way, I think we can say that Kyle will become the new benchmark...

Yeah, I can't really disagree with anything you say here (especially the above). It certainly presents an interesting dilemma for the powers-that-be that really gets to the essence of what it means to have your jersey retired.

My main point - that may end up being irrelevant to the retirement debate - was just that I've always thought all the "best player in America" and NPOY talk we heard preseason was both an exaggeration and oversimplification of Kyle's game. That's just not really who is, IMO. He's done all we could have asked of him and more during his career though, and I would certainly have no problem with his jersey hanging in the rafters.

[mapei]

This may be blasphemy but, if it were up to me, neither one would be retired based on their current tracks. After four years Kyle's numbers may be comparable to Shane's but I would take Shane 10 times out of 10 for my team. I'm not sure I would take Kyle over any of the jerseys retired over the last two decades; Shelden presents the closest case but, for me, the others aren't close. Before that, I wasn't paying close attention.

Kyle has been very good, yes - but great? Not in my opinion. I think Scheyer and Duhon were just as valuable over their careers, though I really think those two and Kyle are about equal in significance to the program. I think Jon was the more important of the two over the course of last year.

I do think Nolan has been great, but only in (1) intangibles and (2) this year on the court. That's not enough.

What could change my calculus? A repeat championship, definitely. A much stronger finish to the season from Kyle than we have seen so far this year? Maybe - that would definitely help.

Personally, I don't think being a NPOY should be a prerequisite. But Brodhead said it was during JJ's and Shel's ceremonies.

[msdukie]

Alarie finished his career as the #3 all time Duke scorer at the time, ahead of Heyman, Mullins, Groat (before him) and Hill, Battier, Jason Williams, Bobby Hurley and Shelden Williams (after him), all of whom have their jerseys retired. And yet, no one then or now believes his jersey should be retired.

Jay Bilas disagrees with you. At the top of every hour, he states that Alarie's jersey should have been retired.

[msdukie]

This may be blasphemy but, if it were up to me, neither one would be retired based on their current tracks. After four years Kyle's numbers may be comparable to Shane's but I would take Shane 10 times out of 10 for my team. I'm not sure I would take Kyle over any of the jerseys retired over the last two decades; Shelden presents the closest case but, for me, the others aren't close. Before that, I wasn't paying close attention.

Kyle has been very good, yes - but great? Not in my opinion. I think Scheyer and Duhon were just as valuable over their careers, though I really think those two and Kyle are about equal in significance to the program. I think Jon was the more important of the two over the course of last year.

I do think Nolan has been great, but only in (1) intangibles and (2) this year on the court. That's not enough.

What could change my calculus? A repeat championship, definitely. A much stronger finish to the season from Kyle than we have seen so far this year? Maybe - that would definitely help.

Personally, I don't think being a NPOY should be a prerequisite. But Brodhead said it was during JJ's and Shel's ceremonies.

I'm not going to rely on Broadhead when determining the prerequisites. My two cents. First, regardless of what has or has not been stated on this board, there are no requirements for jersey retirement except a) graduation and b) achieving at a national level. The door has been left open for what the second prereq means. It could be NPOY, it could be NDPOY plus 1st team A-A (it isn't just NDPOY, see: Amaker, King, Wojo as examples); it could be a national record, it could be something else. Quite frankly, the two requirements for jersey retirement are a) graduation and b) Coach K wants your number retired and if he wants it retired, Broadhead signs off on it.

As for Nolan, if he wins any of the 6 NPOY awards, it is done, no question. If not, again it is K's discretion. Nolan certainly has a shot at winning one (or more) of the awards. He most likely will be ACC POY and 1st Team A-A, which automatically gets him into the Hall of Honor.

As for Kyle, there were tweets going back and forth with Duke Blue Planet a few weeks ago comparing Kyle to some of the other greats who weren't great enough for jersey retirement. Dave Bradley (Duke Blue Planet) (and I'm paraphrasing) responded that people weren't taking into account Kyle's Final Four MOP and that it was really big to K. My interpretation was that it put Kyle at that top level in K's mind. When I saw that tweet, I felt that Kyle's jersey retirement was a lock. After all, Blue Planet is an official mouthpiece of the program. Furthermore, this entire thread has failed to take into account Kyle's status as The Sporting News' 2010 National College Athlete of the Year - I tend to think that is another "in" that the program can use in its discretion for jersey retirement (amazing how these discretionary requirements work).

Just my thoughts on the situation. I think Kyle is in and I think Nolan is getting close. Certainly, both will do no worse than the Hall of Honor.

[cato]

Let's have a look at this, because I think Alarie is the best comparison to Kyle. Both were 6-8 power/shooting forwards. They both started and played four years and averaged double figures. Alarie's teams won; his senior year, the team set the record with 37 wins, and came one *((&&&* airball away from winning the championship.

Just to revisit the "great" conversation one more time, I'd say Alarie was a great player. In my mind there is a tier of great players that don't quite get to the level of jersey retirement. Alarie, Trajan and Scheyer come to mind immediately. Can't speak to time before K.


In fact, in many ways Alarie was a better player than Singler. He was clearly a better shooter, as his field goal percentage indicates, and almost never had bad games; Alarie never had the kind of 4 for 11, 6 for 17 clankeroonie type games that Singler has had with regularity.

First, I don't think you can hang those type performances entirely on Kyle. He has spent 4 years on teams that sometimes have very serious challenge scoring the ball. I never get the sense that he is out there taking gobs of shots that the coaches don't want him to take. Instead, he has sometimes been forced to try to make something happen when the opposing team is focused on stopping him, and his shot is not falling.

But more to the point, of the 133 games Alarie play, he failed to score 10 points 15 times, and 1 point 1 time. Of the 137 games Kyle has played so far, he failed to score 10 points 18 times. Seems pretty comparable.

Kyle has a clear advantage in double-doubles: 21 to 14.

He also averaged almost twice as many assists: 2 to 1.1.


He was just as good a rebounder, getting about 6 to 7 a game, and was maybe not quite as good a defender or full court player because he was a little slower.

They are close in steals and rebounds, although Kyle has the edge (Steals: 1.2 to 0.9) (Rebounds: 6.7 to 6.3).

Also, I think you are selling Kyle shot on the defensive end. He has been a very good defender on both the perimeter and inside, and if forced to, can guard 4 positions. That has been very important to his teams.


His scoring averages his last two years were similar too; he averaged around 16-18 a game, just like Singler. He got his points consistently too, with a few high 20s games tossed in too.

Kyle has been slightly better at 20 point games, going for 41 compared to Alarie's 38. Kyle also has 2 games above 30. Alarie had none.

So, all in all, they are comparable on the stats, with Kyle coming out slightly ahead in most categories, ahead in steals and rebounds, and substantially ahead in assists. Combine that with Kyle's versatility and full court D, and I think he has a better resume.

I'm not saying it's necessarily enough for retirement. Just that I agree with the above poster that, if his jersey is not retired, he will be the head of the "best of the rest" class.

[umdukie]

If Nolan is 1st Team AA and wins any one of the six NPOY awards as previous posters have noted, he will be a lock to have his jersey retired despite what naysayers might say about him not being as productive during his first two years of college. I honestly feel that even if we only reach the FF, Nolan should still have his jersey retired because he is clearly the best and most important player on this year's team whereas last year, it was unclear which of the 3 S's were more vital to the team. Nolan has simply stepped it up to another level and has become a "great' player, which in my mind puts him in the same league as the guys we have currently up in the rafters. I hope for his sake that he keeps up his fantastic level of play and either wins one of the NPOY awards or leads us to another Final Four.

I personally am in the same boat as others who don't think Singler is worthy of jersey retirement. He has been good at almost everything he has done throughout his Duke career but has not great in any one particular category (JJ-points, Shelden-rebounds, Duhon-steals, Hurley-assists, etc.) over a 4 year span or has elevated his game to superstar status during any given year. His latest struggles will not help his case that's for sure.

If Singler's jersey hanging up in the rafters is a foregone conclusion as Mike has pointed out with his Blue Planet knowledge due to Coach K's sentimental feelings towards Kyle, then I can't help but feel that Alarie and Trajan were robbed of the honor. I think an honor of this magnitude needs to be decided with objectivity and Kyle doesn't simply meet Duke's lofty criteria for jersey retirement.

[PADukeMom]

But Duhon wasn't retired.

[NSDukeFan]

Very interesting discussion, though I think it will be a better one at the end of the year, or even in a year when we have the benefit of knowing how their careers ended up, where they ended up on the all-time scoring and rebounding lists of Duke greats and have the benefit of perspective. Like many, I am hoping Kyle has another good shooting streak in him for the end of the year, like last year. I hope to see Kyle's jersey retired as I think he has been an all-time great at Duke and has four fantastic years. I hope Nolan finished the year strongly and gets at least one NPOY award and forces his way into getting his jersey retired. There is one person whose opinion matters most, and I will be very accepting of whatever decision he makes.
I don't disagree with anyone who says that Alarie deserves to be up there as well. He also had a great career at Duke, as did Langdon and Scheyer. I look forward to taking a look at the Hall of Honour some day as there are some fantastic players in there as well.

[yancem]

If Nolan is 1st Team AA and wins any one of the six NPOY awards as previous posters have noted, he will be a lock to have his jersey retired despite what naysayers might say about him not being as productive during his first two years of college. I honestly feel that even if we only reach the FF, Nolan should still have his jersey retired because he is clearly the best and most important player on this year's team whereas last year, it was unclear which of the 3 S's were more vital to the team. Nolan has simply stepped it up to another level and has become a "great' player, which in my mind puts him in the same league as the guys we have currently up in the rafters. I hope for his sake that he keeps up his fantastic level of play and either wins one of the NPOY awards or leads us to another Final Four.

I personally am in the same boat as others who don't think Singler is worthy of jersey retirement. He has been good at almost everything he has done throughout his Duke career but has not great in any one particular category (JJ-points, Shelden-rebounds, Duhon-steals, Hurley-assists, etc.) over a 4 year span or has elevated his game to superstar status during any given year. His latest struggles will not help his case that's for sure.

If Singler's jersey hanging up in the rafters is a foregone conclusion as Mike has pointed out with his Blue Planet knowledge due to Coach K's sentimental feelings towards Kyle, then I can't help but feel that Alarie and Trajan were robbed of the honor. I think an honor of this magnitude needs to be decided with objectivity and Kyle doesn't simply meet Duke's lofty criteria for jersey retirement.

This is a very interesting discussion because of the role reversal. At the beginning of the year Smith had little to know chance of getting his jersey retired but Singler seemed to be a lock. While Singler has had a solid season it has been quite a bit short of the first team AA and NPOY season that many expected. Conversely Smith has had a spectacular season and is now a leading contender for NPOY.

I think that everyone will agree that Smith has benefited (at least statistically) from the absence of Irving. If the toe was able to play, he would be taking shots, assists and minutes from Smith and it might be the toe that was heading NPOY discussions. Now that's not to say that Smith wouldn't rather have Irving on the court because I think that he would but that doesn't change the impact on Smith's production.

As to the bolded comments, one thing to bare in mind is that Alarie and Langdon didn't win a NC let alone win the MOP and that is a valuable contribution. I think that the biggest knock against Singler is that each of the past 3 seasons he was considered to be the guy who would be "the man" for the team and each year someone else stepped up and either matched or surpassed him. He was supposed to be the acc POY and NPOY not Smith. That being said it was around this point last year that people were writing him off and singing the praises of Scheyer. Then Singler got his game rolling and Scheyer peaked. The next moth or so will be quite interesting.

[PADukeMom]

This is a very interesting discussion because of the role reversal. At the beginning of the year Smith had little to know chance of getting his jersey retired but Singler seemed to be a lock. While Singler has had a solid season it has been quite a bit short of the first team AA and NPOY season that many expected. Conversely Smith has had a spectacular season and is now a leading contender for NPOY.

I think that everyone will agree that Smith has benefited (at least statistically) from the absence of Irving. If the toe was able to play, he would be taking shots, assists and minutes from Smith and it might be the toe that was heading NPOY discussions. Now that's not to say that Smith wouldn't rather have Irving on the court because I think that he would but that doesn't change the impact on Smith's production.

As to the bolded comments, one thing to bare in mind is that Alarie and Langdon didn't win a NC let alone win the MOP and that is a valuable contribution. I think that the biggest knock against Singler is that each of the past 3 seasons he was considered to be the guy who would be "the man" for the team and each year someone else stepped up and either matched or surpassed him. He was supposed to be the acc POY and NPOY not Smith. That being said it was around this point last year that people were writing him off and singing the praises of Scheyer. Then Singler got his game rolling and Scheyer peaked. The next moth or so will be quite interesting.

I don't know if you can say that Kyrie's injury is the reason Nolan is on such a tear. He is a senior & has enough experience and talent to do this on his own. True he has gotten more looks because of Kyrie's absence but Kyle is also a talented, experienced senior who has yet to break-out of his scoring slump. I know he is doing those intangables that aren't reflected on a stat sheet but do those intagables count towards retirement or do actual stats count more?

[yancem]

I don't know if you can say that Kyrie's injury is the reason Nolan is on such a tear. He is a senior & has enough experience and talent to do this on his own. True he has gotten more looks because of Kyrie's absence but Kyle is also a talented, experienced senior who has yet to break-out of his scoring slump. I know he is doing those intangables that aren't reflected on a stat sheet but do those intagables count towards retirement or do actual stats count more?

Oh, my comments weren't meant to minimalize Smiths talents or abilities, it's just that there is only 1 ball on the court and Irving is a spectacular player in his own right. Smiths ppg went up by 4 whole points after Irving went out. That is a big difference. I'm sure that Smith would still be having a a fantastic senior season even with Irving on the court but his numbers probably would look more like last season when he was sharing the scoring load with 2 other stars. The other thing to keep in mind is that if it had been Smith that had gotten hurt, it would be Irving that would have seen his numbers increase. I guess it is kind of like James and Wade for the Heat. Both of their scoring averages have taken a small hit because they are sharing the scoring load but that doesn't change the fact that they are both studs.

[hq2]

As to the bolded comments, one thing to bare in mind is that Alarie and Langdon didn't win a NC let alone win the MOP and that is a valuable contribution.

Yes, but both came within one play of doing so. I note, however, that while Langdon did play well in the title game, he was unable to score on the play that would have won it, while Alarie wore out down the stretch in the title game and missed a number of shots that could have help Duke win the game. Still, if that shot by Butler at the end had gone in, how would we see Singler today? The point is, those were all one play games; Singler was lucky enough to win his, the others weren't. That alone should not decide the issue. What matters more is overall level of play, and what a lot of people have concluded is that Singler's hasn't been high enough.

[yancem]

Yes, but both came within one play of doing so. I note, however, that while Langdon did play well in the title game, he was unable to score on the play that would have won it, while Alarie wore out down the stretch in the title game and missed a number of shots that could have help Duke win the game. Still, if that shot by Butler at the end had gone in, how would we see Singler today? The point is, those were all one play games; Singler was lucky enough to win his, the others weren't. That alone should not decide the issue. What matters more is overall level of play, and what a lot of people have concluded is that Singler's hasn't been high enough.

Isn't winning always the measuring stick though? If Langdon makes the play at the end of championship game maybe he does get his jersey retired. Even if he didn't you would hear his name a lot more. Also, Singler didn't just benefit from Butler's missed shot, he put Butler in the position to need that shot to fall.

I'm not convinced that his jersey should hang from the rafters but when you start discussing the relative merits of one player over another, I think a NC goes a long way (At least if the player in question was a major contributor. At this point I don't think that, say Kelly's ring, would count in a discussion)

[uh_no]

Isn't winning always the measuring stick though?

Of team success, yes.

Not once has K or anyone else related to the program ever come within a hint of mentioning championships or wins as necessary or relevant for jersey retirement. WHen coach K said it, it was graduate and win some sort of national award or set some record. Not win a national award...but if your'e not good enough to do that but the team was really good that can count instead....we can argue all we want here, but the only opinion which matters is K's....and he has never shown to make retirement decisions based on a team's successes or non successes.

[-jk]

Of team success, yes.

Not once has K or anyone else related to the program ever come within a hint of mentioning championships or wins as necessary or relevant for jersey retirement. WHen coach K said it, it was graduate and win some sort of national award or set some record. Not win a national award...but if your'e not good enough to do that but the team was really good that can count instead....we can argue all we want here, but the only opinion which matters is K's....and he has never shown to make retirement decisions based on a team's successes or non successes.

Team success may not be a criterion, per se, but every player (post-Groat) with a retired jersey has led a team to the final four.

-jk

[uh_no]

Team success may not be a criterion, per se, but every player (post-Groat) with a retired jersey has led a team to the final four.

-jk

In the K era (which is effectively all that matters since K is the one doing the retiring) almost every player has been to a final four. There have been 3 classes which haven't gone, I believe 2008, 2009 and 1998. I guess my point is that if we get to the final four this year, people will say "oh kyle and nolan should be retired because they brought the team to 2 final fours. There must be 30 players in the K era who can say that, and some players whose numbers are retired CAN'T say that (JJ anyone, arguably the best offensive player in duke history). It shows that it doesn't carry nearly the weight that individual contributions do. That's all.

[yancem]

In the K era (which is effectively all that matters since K is the one doing the retiring) almost every player has been to a final four. There have been 3 classes which haven't gone, I believe 2008, 2009 and 1998. I guess my point is that if we get to the final four this year, people will say "oh kyle and nolan should be retired because they brought the team to 2 final fours. There must be 30 players in the K era who can say that, and some players whose numbers are retired CAN'T say that (JJ anyone, arguably the best offensive player in duke history). It shows that it doesn't carry nearly the weight that individual contributions do. That's all.

This is a weak argument. Being on a F4 team and being a star on a F4 team are completely different things. If Duke gets to the F4 this year there will be several players that won't sniff their jersey being retired even though they went to 2 F4s. Kelly hardly played in last years F4. Of course he's not on Smith or Singler's level. Just as THill, Lang, and Davis weren't on the same level as Laettner, Hurley and GHill.

Every player that starred on 2 F4 teams has their number retired and if you don't think that F4's aren't a factor in deciding which jerseys to retire, then I think you are being a tad naive. To look at it another way, it took leaving as the all time scoring leader to get the jerseys retired for 3 of the 4 players of the K era that don't have NC rings but still got their number retired (Gminski, Dawkins and Redick) all left . The 4th (Williams) left the all time leader in rebounds and blocks as well as being multiple year DPOY.

GHill isn't in the top 10 in scoring or rebounds and didn't win a NPOY (although he did win the DPOY award) but he went to 3 F4s and won 2 NCs. You take the 2 NCs away and I'm not sure 33 is hanging in the rafters. Singler is already way past Hill in points and rebounds and is closing the gap on blocks and steals (he's way behind in assists). He also has a F4 MOP which Hill doesn't have. So if individual production is the sole or at least main criteria, Singler shouldn't have much to worry about.

[mapei]

You take the 2 NCs away and I'm not sure 33 is hanging in the rafters. Singler is already way past Hill in points and rebounds and is closing the gap on blocks and steals (he's way behind in assists). He also has a F4 MOP which Hill doesn't have. So if individual production is the sole or at least main criteria, Singler shouldn't have much to worry about.

Are you saying that Kyle is a better player than Grant or has meant more to the program? If so, I beg to differ on both counts. Numbers don't tell the whole story.

[DallasDevil]

Are you saying that Kyle is a better player than Grant or has meant more to the program? If so, I beg to differ on both counts. Numbers don't tell the whole story.

Umm, I don't think he was saying either of those things. I think he was saying that Grant being an instrumental piece on two national championship teams and leading Duke to another final four are part of what made his career so great and contributed to putting his jersey up in the rafters. Along those lines (speaking generally about earlier comments), I'm not sure what purpose it serves to compare Kyle and Nolan to players who have had jerseys retired and arguing that Kyle and Nolan were not as good as them, therefore don't deserve to have theirs retired. The test will not be whether they are better than other greats, but whether they distinguished themselves enough to deserve the honor.

Further, I'm really quite surprised at the number of people on this thread who are discounting the value of the national championship in evaluating whether Smith and Singler get their jerseys retired. Championships mean more to Coach K than anything else. I don't imagine a scenario where Singler's (and Smith's) play in the final four last year is ignored when K decides whether or not to retire his jersey. I continue to believe that Kyle's consistent excellence, and Smith's stellar season this year, combined with their play during the championship run last year, will result in jersey retirement for both.

[OldPhiKap]

The comparison to Mark Alarie is very interesting. One of my favorite players ever. And, as I've said numerous times, his number should be retired.

A big difference between the two is that Mark played with Tommy Amaker, who was a world class point guard. Kyle has had to do it with mainly combo guards distributing the ball. So I think Kyle's situation is harder than Alarie's was. Of course, Mark did not have the three point line to help add to his figures, and i don't recall him being a great shot from the distance Kyle is being asked to shoot for three.

I go back to a point I made before -- Kyle could have gone to the pro's after last season, and Nolan has said that if Kyle had gone that Nolan probably would have as well. We were all surprised when Kyle came back, and we would be in a world of hurt this year if one or both of them had jumped. Loyalty should count for something.

Where would this team be without him this year, even if his numbers take a hit from (1) drawing the best defenders; (2) sacrificing some of his energy for defense; and (3) lacking a true point guard? If Kyrie were healthy, Kyle's numbers would be much higher I suspect.

And Nolan is the absolute model of a Duke player who developed from a reserve as a freshman to a NPOY candidate and LEADER.

Retire both. And Alarie's, since the number is already retired for Laettner anyway.

[hq2]

So, all in all, they are comparable on the stats, with Kyle coming out slightly ahead in most categories, ahead in steals and rebounds, and substantially ahead in assists. Combine that with Kyle's versatility and full court D, and I think he has a better resume.

One last point on the Alarie comparison. When you add in steals and rebounds on the possessions, you'd have to subtract about 2 out of 3 of Kyle's missed shots as turnovers (resulted in change of possession). In fact, I may be wrong, but I think Kyle may actually be on pace to set the record for most missed shots in a career! (would he have more than J.J.?) When you add it all up that way, that makes Kyle and Alarie about even.

[yancem]

Are you saying that Kyle is a better player than Grant or has meant more to the program? If so, I beg to differ on both counts. Numbers don't tell the whole story.

No I'm not saying that Singler is better than Hill or has meant more to the program. In my opinion, Hill was the most gifted player to ever where a Duke uniform. I was responding to a quote that was saying F4s and NC aren't all that important as criteria for jersey retirement. While Hill was hugely important to Duke first 2 NCs (he effectively neutralized Augman and then Rose). But if take away those 2 titles do his numbers create a resume looks like it deserves a retired jersey? I think it is borderline at best. Somethings can't be measured in statistics but can manifest themselves in championships. This is why most people rank Russel ahead of Wilt. Wilt put up insane numbers but Russel won championships.

Back to the importance to the program comment, how would you rank the two if Singler goes on a run and leads Duke to another ACC championship and NC winning MOP in both tournaments. All of the sudden Singler's importance to the program balloons. Why, not because of points or rebounds but because of championships.

[hq2]

Back to the importance to the program comment, how would you rank the two if Singler goes on a run and leads Duke to another ACC championship and NC winning MOP in both tournaments. All of the sudden Singler's importance to the program balloons. Why, not because of points or rebounds but because of championships.

Totally agree. If he goes on a run and leads them all the way, they'd have to give it to him; the mere fact of back-to-back titles would make it impossible for them not to. However, at this point, I'd say that's what it would take; otherwise, I don't think
he'll get it.

[juise]

I tend to agree with those who think that Singler's contribution to last year's title is a big deal (and obviously whatever Duke achieves this year doesn't hurt either). I was too young to observe Mark Alarie's career, so I am really stuck looking only at stats and reading the opinions of others.

There has been talk of both Mark and Kyle playing on one elite Duke team (1986, 2010). One stat that I haven't seen in that comparison is Kyle's 36 minutes played per game in 2010 versus Alarie's 30 in 1986. The role that Kyle played on last year's team, being on the floor non-stop once ACC play started, was invaluable. That doesn't diminish the other players' contributions in any way. There's just something to said for being Iron and doing whatever is required to win (holding Heyward to 2-11 shooting in the title game, for instance). Cal Ripken had 19 All-Star appearances and over 400 home runs, but he's best known for just coming to work every day and contributing.

And then there has been some disappointment with Kyle's production this year. Again, I would point to the role he has played in the team's success. As of today, Kyle leads the NCAA in average plus/minus (http://statsheet.com/mcb/players/stats/plus_minus_avg?season=2010-2011) (Nolan is second, Diebler is third). If this team is able to do great things, I think it has to be a significant addition to his legacy.

Obviously, I want Kyle to start clicking on offense more consistently and it would be great to see him earn All-American honors. If he doesn't get the latter, I still think that team success could push him into the rafters.

[PADukeMom]

Isn't winning always the measuring stick though? If Langdon makes the play at the end of championship game maybe he does get his jersey retired. )

If Trajan didn't walk & made hit a 3 to win the game # 21 would be hanging from the rafters.

Nolan's mentoring of younger players plus the numbers he is putting up thus far this year is what is going to factor into Nolan's retirement.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Nolan is going to win one or more NPOY awards this year. His jersey is going up. We are going to repeat as National Champions. Kyle's jersey will join Nolan's.

Jim Spanarkel, Mark Alarie, Gene Banks, Trajan Langdon, Danny Ferry and the others we've discussed were all great players in their day for Duke. Denigrating their accomplishments, especially if you didn't see them play and are only looking at stats, serves no constructive purpose. Before someone accuses me of being the adult in the room, please stop!:cool:

[OldPhiKap]

^^ Age and maturity are two different things.

I am older than I act.




Perhaps a blessing, perhaps a curse. But I'll say an "amen" for the optoemism!

[juise]

Denigrating their accomplishments, especially if you didn't see them play and are only looking at stats, serves no constructive purpose.

I hope you don't think that my post "denigrated" Alarie because I was pointing out that Kyle played 36 minutes/game last year. My post was simply pointing to how outstanding Kyle's effort and conditioning were on a team with a very short bench. Using statistics to back up that point is valid, IMO.

[HK Dukie]

If Trajan didn't walk & made hit a 3 to win the game # 21 would be hanging from the rafters.

Trajan was clearly fouled at the end of the game as was JJ in '04. Their should be asterisks by those two Uconvict championships.

In any case, can we get the mods to close down this thread? Nolan deserves the jersey retirement. Case closed. :cool:

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I hope you don't think that my post "denigrated" Alarie because I was pointing out that Kyle played 36 minutes/game last year. My post was simply pointing to how outstanding Kyle's effort and conditioning were on a team with a very short bench. Using statistics to back up that point is valid, IMO.
No, your post doesn't, and yes, Kyle and Nolan are in incredible shape and are tireless. But some posts in the thread have taken some (soft) shots at various players that seemed to.

[sagegrouse]

Let me offer the 40,000-foot view on the subject of "Retired Jerseys at Duke." There may be some errors here because my hand-written notes look like a grade school assignment.

There are thirteen retired jerseys.

Eight of these guys were National Players of the Year: Groat, Heyman, Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Battier, JWill (x2), and Redick (x2). End of discussion? I think so.

Of the remaining five --


Mullins had A-A honors in 1963 and was consensus 2nd team in 1964 (Plus Olympic gold, first Duke NBA All-Star [x3], successful coach at UNCC, and -- most importantly -- Class President for Sagegrouse and Jim3K).

The G-Man has A-A honors in 1978, was consensus 1st team in 1979, and consensus 2nd team in 1980 (plus a long run in the NBA and ACC All-Academic [x3]).

Bobby Hurley received A-A honors in 1992 and was consensus 1st team in 1993 (plus two NCs).

Grant Hill was consensus 2nd team in 1993, consensus 1st team in 1994, and national defensive POY in 1993 (plus, he was Grant Hill and has had an amazing run in the NBA).

Shelden Williams received A-A honors in 2004 and 2005, was consensus 1st team in 2006, and was twice NDPOY.

It should be mentioned that Heyman's and Mullins' jersey retirements were 20 years after their Duke career. AD Eddie Cameron would not let Bubas retire the jerseys because Dick Groat, the only retired jersey, had been A-A in two different sports.

It should also be mentioned that only Groat failed to have at least one Final Four appearance.

On the outside looking in are --

Bob Verga, consensus 2nd team in 1966 and consensus 1st team in 1967.

Trajan and Spanarkel, A-A honors in one year and consensus 2nd team in another (both were multiple ACC All-Academic selections).

To me, the only question on this list is why Mullins and why not Verga? It is ju-u-u-s-s-t possible that all-time good guy Jeff Mullins' post-Duke accomplishments entered the decision.

What does this mean for Nolan and Kyle? I dunno for sure, but consensus 1st team A-A would help a lot, and NPOY should be a clincher. Position on the Duke all-time scoring list? Not so much.

sagegrouse

[Indoor66]

Let me offer the 40,000-foot view on the subject of "Retired Jerseys at Duke." There may be some errors here because my hand-written notes look like a grade school assignment.

There are thirteen retired jerseys.

Eight of these guys were National Players of the Year: Groat, Heyman, Dawkins, Ferry, Laettner, Battier, JWill (x2), and Redick (x2). End of discussion? I think so.

Of the remaining five --


Mullins had A-A honors in 1963 and was consensus 2nd team in 1964 (Plus Olympic gold, first Duke NBA All-Star [x3], successful coach at UNCC, and -- most importantly -- Class President for Sagegrouse and Jim3K).

The G-Man has A-A honors in 1978, was consensus 1st team in 1979, and consensus 2nd team in 1980 (plus a long run in the NBA and ACC All-Academic [x3]).

Bobby Hurley received A-A honors in 1992 and was consensus 1st team in 1993 (plus two NCs).

Grant Hill was consensus 2nd team in 1993, consensus 1st team in 1994, and national defensive POY in 1993 (plus, he was Grant Hill and has had an amazing run in the NBA).

Shelden Williams received A-A honors in 2004 and 2005, was consensus 1st team in 2006, and was twice NDPOY.
It should be mentioned that Heyman's and Mullins' jersey retirements were 20 years after their Duke career. AD Eddie Cameron would not let Bubas retire the jerseys because Dick Groat, the only retired jersey, had been A-A in two different sports.

It should also be mentioned that only Groat failed to have at least one Final Four appearance.



On the outside looking in are --

Bob Verga, consensus 2nd team in 1966 and consensus 1st team in 1967.

Trajan and Spanarkel, A-A honors in one year and consensus 2nd team in another (both were multiple ACC All-Academic selections).
To me, the only question on this list is why Mullins and why not Verga? It is ju-u-u-s-s-t possible that all-time good guy Jeff Mullins' post-Duke accomplishments entered the decision.

What does this mean for Nolan and Kyle? I dunno for sure, but consensus 1st team A-A would help a lot, and NPOY should be a clincher. Position on the Duke all-time scoring list? Not so much.

sagegrouse

Nice recitation. I would add that, IRRC, Jeff Mullins spent some time as a fund raiser for Duke and also had a position within the athletics department (just after his NBA retirement and before his auto dealership in Cary). My memory could be fading on this.

[mapei]

What I'm saying is that I wouldn't retire either based on where they are now. Another NC changes things, definitely for Kyle and maybe for Nolan, too, especially if he were also to get NPOY.

But, when we base the discussion on last year's championship team, I have a hard time leaving out Jon, who may have been more valuable than either.

[PADukeMom]

Nolan is going to win one or more NPOY awards this year. His jersey is going up. We are going to repeat as National Champions. Kyle's jersey will join Nolan's.

Jim Spanarkel, Mark Alarie, Gene Banks, Trajan Langdon, Danny Ferry and the others we've discussed were all great players in their day for Duke. Denigrating their accomplishments, especially if you didn't see them play and are only looking at stats, serves no constructive purpose. Before someone accuses me of being the adult in the room, please stop!:cool:

Excuse me but I DID see several of the above play..ahem...even though I am "only " 29. Stats are one thing & sentiment is another. As much as iIadored my Trajan...killing me here...but he is honor worthy & not retirement worthy. Now while I didn't have made-crazy love for Banks & Alarie like I did for Trajan, honor worthy not retirement worthy.

Why did you use the forbidden word "repeat"????

[PADukeMom]

Trajan was clearly fouled at the end of the game as was JJ in '04. Their should be asterisks by those two Uconvict championships.

In any case, can we get the mods to close down this thread? Nolan deserves the jersey retirement. Case closed. :cool:

Talk about ME wearing my Duke Blue Colored Glasses:cool: I still content that the 1994 championship game was "given" to Arkansas because Bill Clinton was from Arkansas, he was sitting courtside & was president at the time. j/k :cool:

Now I am off to go watch a sport that is clearly fixed, NASCAR.:D

[Starter]

So if Nolan wins National Player of the Year -- and there's a bit of a drumbeat for that now -- his jersey is unequivocally retired even if Duke doesn't win this year, right?

Shouldn't we also retire the guy who made that possible, by virtue of Nolan saying his return to Duke was predicated on Singler doing the same thing?

I'm kidding. Sort of. A little. Maybe.

In all seriousness though, it's difficult to imagine one of these guys being retired without the other. They came in together and have essentially become inextricably tied; they'll leave together in glory as two of the most decorated players in Duke history.

In addition, I get that a national title is a team accomplishment, but when someone contributes mightily in a personal way to that goal, it significantly raises their stock in my eyes. Singler probably won't be first-team All-America while Nolan almost certainly will, but stack the Final Four MOP on the rest of his accomplishments and I'd have no issue putting him up there with his brother in arms.

[uh_no]

they'll leave together in glory as two of the most decorated players in Duke history.


That's a bit of an overstatement.....so far between them no all american selections, and 1 national championship. Even if they were both selected first team and they won the title again, there are still many players that are vastly 'more decorated' than them.

[Starter]

That's a bit of an overstatement.....so far between them no all american selections, and 1 national championship. Even if they were both selected first team and they won the title again, there are still many players that are vastly 'more decorated' than them.

It seems that you picked out a touch of hyperbole from my post and went after it like a champ, despite that it wasn't my main point. I like both these guys, so for the heck of it -- it's a slow night up here since the Carmelo deal went final -- let's play with it a bit.

I'll reiterate that Singler won a Final Four MOP. I don't think I have to mention there aren't too many other Duke players that were so honored. (It's a small sample size, but it'd be tough to find two more important games to excel in.) Singler's finger is decorated with a championship ring, which puts him in lofty company.

Besides, let's just say Duke goes to the finals of the ACC's and makes the Final Four, which would constitute at least 12 more games. If Singler keeps up his current scoring average of about 17, that puts him at 2,425 -- fourth in Duke history, and 35 points behind Christian Laettner. He'd also finish sixth in team history in rebounds and fourth on the all-time three-pointer list. There aren't really "vastly" more guys better than Singler in these relatively significant individual categories. Essentially, he's no slouch.

As for Nolan, he has at least a decent shot at being the first ACC player -- much less Duke player -- ever to lead the conference in scoring and assists. He'll likely be Duke's 12th guy ever to win ACC Player of the Year, he'll almost certainly be First-Team All America and is one of three guys in the running to receive Duke's 10th National Player of the Year, which he very well could win. He also was at the very least instrumental for at least one national title team, which was, you know, not something that happens every year for every player. (And if we give him the 12 more games, he's on pace to tie Battier for 11th in all-time Duke scoring, despite the slow start.)

Just sayin'... these guys might sorta kinda stack up a bit, no?

[uh_no]

It seems that you picked out a touch of hyperbole from my post and went after it like a champ, despite that it wasn't my main point. I like both these guys, so for the heck of it -- it's a slow night up here since the Carmelo deal went final -- let's play with it a bit.

I'll reiterate that Singler won a Final Four MOP. I don't think I have to mention there aren't too many other Duke players that were so honored. (It's a small sample size, but it'd be tough to find two more important games to excel in.) Singler's finger is decorated with a championship ring, which puts him in lofty company.

Besides, let's just say Duke goes to the finals of the ACC's and makes the Final Four, which would constitute at least 12 more games. If Singler keeps up his current scoring average of about 17, that puts him at 2,425 -- fourth in Duke history, and 35 points behind Christian Laettner. He'd also finish sixth in team history in rebounds and fourth on the all-time three-pointer list. There aren't really "vast amounts" of guys better than Singler in these relatively significant categories. Essentially, he's no slouch.

As for Nolan, despite a slow start to his career, he has at least a decent shot at being the first ACC player -- much less Duke player -- ever to lead the conference in scoring and assists. He'll likely be Duke's 12th guy ever to win ACC Player of the Year, he'll probably be First-Team All America and is one of three guys in the running to receive Duke's 10th National Player of the Year, which he very well could win. He also was at the very least instrumental for at least one national title team, which was, you know, not something that happens every year for every player.

Just sayin'... these guys might sorta kinda stack up a bit, no?


No doubt they stack up. Being 'decorated' generally is tied to having lots of awards, which these guys do not. In terms of individual awards, between them they have one FF MOP and a couple of all-ACC selections....not a single all american selection....nearly every single retired player is more 'decorated' than the combined efforts of nolan and kyle at this point. We could argue all night over the meaning of the word decorated, but that's really beside the issue anyway.

[Starter]

No doubt they stack up. Being 'decorated' generally is tied to having lots of awards, which these guys do not. In terms of individual awards, between them they have one FF MOP and a couple of all-ACC selections....not a single all american selection....nearly every single retired player is more 'decorated' than the combined efforts of nolan and kyle at this point. We could argue all night over the meaning of the word decorated, but that's really beside the issue anyway.

Well, I mean, Nolan's pretty much certainly going to be first-team All-America, and Singler will be somewhere down there, just not first-team. But yeah, that's fair, I guess it's semantics. It's just, to me, the fact that Redick is the all-time leading Duke scorer, that would seem to be on par in prestige with just about any honor he could have received. (Not that there were many honors that eluded him.) Personally, I'd easily consider high rankings on all-time Duke lists and contributions to national title-winning teams to fall into the "decorated" category in terms of a player's career resume. Records and milestones, that sort of stuff, seem to signify "decorated" to me. But I basically agree that it's really beside the issue anyway.

[PADukeMom]

You guys all know by know that I have mad crazy love for Nolan. With that said it is way premature to talk about NPOY & jersey retirement. True if he stays on his current track he would be deserving of those accolades however until talk of this needs to cease in order to not anger the woof GODS. There is way too much season left to be played.

[Starter]

Haha, fair enough, though I certainly don't believe in jinxes. If I could do that to anyone, God help Gary Williams by this point.

[PADukeMom]

Haha, fair enough, though I certainly don't believe in jinxes. If I could do that to anyone, God help Gary Williams by this point.

Oh sweetie believe in the "woof Gods". The UNC game I had a really nasty stomach virus so I couldn't stand the sight of my Fritos yet alone eat any & we were down by 14 points at half. I had to "man-up" for the second half & eat the Fritos & we ahemmmm won the game. Of course I spent the rest of the night & next day throwing up but I am willing to what had to be done.

[gus]

Bobby Hurley received A-A honors in 1992 and was consensus 1st team in 1993 (plus two NCs).

Bobby Hurley also is the NCAA's alltime assists leader- a record that has stood for 18 years and counting.

[CDu]

Well, I mean, Nolan's pretty much certainly going to be first-team All-America, and Singler will be somewhere down there, just not first-team. But yeah, that's fair, I guess it's semantics. It's just, to me, the fact that Redick is the all-time leading Duke scorer, that would seem to be on par in prestige with just about any honor he could have received. (Not that there were many honors that eluded him.) Personally, I'd easily consider high rankings on all-time Duke lists and contributions to national title-winning teams to fall into the "decorated" category in terms of a player's career resume. Records and milestones, that sort of stuff, seem to signify "decorated" to me. But I basically agree that it's really beside the issue anyway.

This is sort of tangential, but I don't think Singler will be on any All-American teams this year. He'll still likely be first-team All-ACC, but I don't think he's going to get the All-American honors.

[camion]

This is sort of orthogonal, but I think we're in danger of running out of jersey numbers for active players. I propose that instead of retiring a number we begin handing out jersey sabbaticals. Let the jersey rest for a few years and then bring it back for a new generation. :)

[94duke]

something to chew on...


"Kyle is all about winning — that's why he'll wind up being one of the top two or three kids in the history of our program and in the history of the NCAA," Krzyzewski said recently. "He'll be one of the top four or five players to ever play here, as far as the credentials. When you win a national championship during your four years, you already set yourself apart."


"I can't really think of anybody like that in our history," Krzyzewski said. "Laettner was always good. Johnny (Dawkins) was always good. (J.J.) Redick, I mean, really good. ... Nolan's ascent to being one of the top players to play in a Duke uniform has been kind of unusual and really remarkable."

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_basketball/story/9196874/

[Starter]

something to chew on...





http://www.wralsportsfan.com/college_basketball/story/9196874/

As usual, Krzyzewski articulates far better what I was trying to say. (I was trying to look at it from his perspective, too.) I still think both of these guys have a very legitimate shot to be retired. It's K's call.

[uh_no]

I still think both of these guys have a very legitimate shot to be retired. It's K's call.

I think that's the most fair assessment at this time. I don't think they are 'locks' I don't think they are definitely off, but they have as good a chance as someone has had in a few years, and in the end its K's call.

[Lord Ash]

Kyle is as much a lock to be retired as a person can be a lock, I think. Look at that K quote again... Kyle will end up being one of the top two or three winningest players in our program history and in NCAA basketball, and one of the top four or five players EVER at Duke... and you think Kyle, with his 140+ starts, his total of ONE program lost to in four years of home basketball, his NCAA title with Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas as the bigs, and his Final Four MVP award, and now being called by K one of the four or five best in Duke history, WON'T be retired?

Ehhh. Sorry, I've got to think it is a lock.

[AZLA]

Uh, no

Uh, yes

we'll see their jerseys in the rafters

[uh_no]

Kyle is as much a lock to be retired as a person can be a lock, I think. Look at that K quote again... Kyle will end up being one of the top two or three winningest players in our program history and in NCAA basketball, and one of the top four or five players EVER at Duke... and you think Kyle, with his 140+ starts, his total of ONE program lost to in four years of home basketball, his NCAA title with Brian Zoubek and Lance Thomas as the bigs, and his Final Four MVP award, and now being called by K one of the four or five best in Duke history, WON'T be retired?

Ehhh. Sorry, I've got to think it is a lock.

While I think arguing over whether it is a 'lock' or not is silly since whether it gets retired or not, we'll never know how 'close' it was, I will yield to you here. You've been around longer than I have, and were very much correct about the Scheyer situation last year (as opposed to about half the people on this board and some big names *cough cough* jumbo). It will be most interesting to see, regardless of the outcome, what Coach K's justification is for both nolan and kyle.

[94duke]

Nolan's AP 1st team AA selection will probably renew this discussion, so here's a bump.

[Bay Area Duke Fan]

Nolan's AP 1st team AA selection will probably renew this discussion, so here's a bump.

A number of four-year Duke players have been first team AA and have not had jerseys retired ... Scheyer & Carrawell.

[94duke]

A number of four-year Duke players have been first team AA and have not had jerseys retired ... Scheyer & Carrawell.

The Duke BBall media guide has Jon listed as consensus 2nd team AA.
(Chris 1st team, as you mentioned)

[Lord Ash]

In my opinion Nolan won't be retired. If Bob V. and Jon S. and Trajan L. aren't retired, I don't think Nolan should be. Nolan had a GREAT pair of seasons as a junior and senior, but half of his career was decidedly average or even, as much as I hate to say it, below average for a future retired player in his first and second season. But I could be wrong... especially if he wins NPOY.

BTW, here is a fun piece from Al F. about retiring jerseys from the Shel/JJ times. (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/articles/?p=20528)

[hq2]

Agreed. I think another N.C. would have gotten it, but without it, I don't see it, especially with the way he played in the last game (although that alone shouldn't decide it.) Overall, his career wasn't quite good enough.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I still think they are both (Nolan's and Kyle's) are going to be retired. I don't know when the announcement will be made. Perhaps at the team banquet on April 15th?

[RepoMan]

I will be very surprised in Nolan's jersey is retired. How exactly is Nolan a better candidate that Scheyer, for example? When you list the names of players whose jerseys have been retired, I think Nolan, as great as he has played the last two seasons, would stand out as the one that does not look like the others.

Kyle is a closer call I think. To me, though, while Kyle has been consistently excellent for 4 full years, he has rarely been transcendent. Last year in the final four was the closest that he came. That's a lot different than guys like Hill, Laettner, Hurley, Redick, etc., who were undeniably dominant for extended periods during their careers.

Look, I loved watching Nolan and Kyle. They were and are terrific ambassadors for Duke. Nolan probably has played a critically important role in our recent recruiting successes. We were very fortunate that they decided to return for a senior season, giving us many more months of basketball joy. But, I'm just not sure that jersey retirement is in the cards, and certainly there is no shame in that.

[sagegrouse]

I will be very surprised in Nolan's jersey is retired. How exactly is Nolan a better candidate that Scheyer, for example? When you list the names of players whose jerseys have been retired, I think Nolan, as great as he has played the last two seasons, would stand out as the one that does not look like the others.

Kyle is a closer call I think. To me, though, while Kyle has been consistently excellent for 4 full years, he has rarely been transcendent. Last year in the final four was the closest that he came. That's a lot different than guys like Hill, Laettner, Hurley, Redick, etc., who were undeniably dominant for extended periods during their careers.




If Nolan wins a credible National Player of the Year award, his jersey will be retired. It's deserved, and it's an automatic, almost. (Ya gotta graduate, Elton). The NBC NPOY to Nolan is a good award but not quite enough.


If Nolan's jersey is retired, Kyle's will be as well. K has already said that Kyle is one of the best four or five players to play at Duke in his time. Well, NINE jerseys of K-era players have been retired.


sagegrouse

[Lord Ash]

Just thought this might be fun... present some players with, say, three cherry-picked stats (as well as minutes.) Eight players all together.

Player A
Fr (15 min): 6 pts, 47% shooting, 38% from three
Soph (22 min): 8 pts, 2 assists, 42% shooting
Jr (36 min): 17 pts, 3 assists, 3 rebounds
Sr (34 min): 21 pts, 5 assists, 5 rebounds

Player B
Fr (25 min): 11 pts, 43% from three, 2 assists
Soph (30 min): 14 pts, 44% from three, 3 rebounds
Jr (29 min): 15 pts, 89% free throw, 3 rebounds
Sr (31 min): 17 pts, 44% from three, 46% shooting



Player C
Fr (36 min): 8 pts, 51% shooting, 5 assists
So (34 min): 8 pts, 6 assists, 2 rebounds
Jr (30 min): 6 pts, 6 assists, 2 steals
Sr (36 min): 12 pts, 4 assists, 2 steals

Player D
Fr (34 min): 12 pts, 3 rebounds, 2 assists
So (28 min): 12 pts, 4 rebounds, 2 assists
Jr (33 min): 15 pts, 4 rebounds, 3 assists
Sr (37 min): 18 pts, 4 rebounds, 5 assists




Player E
Fr (16 min): 6 pts, 58% shooting, 3 rebounds
So (22 min): 10 pts, 48% shooting, 4 rebounds
Jr (29 min): 10 pts, 5 rebounds, 3 assists
Sr (36 min): 17 pts, 6 rebounds, 3 assists

Player F
Fr (29 min): 13 pts, 46% shooting, 6 rebounds
So (32 min): 17 pts, 8 rebounds, 2 assists
Jr (36 min): 18 pts, 7 rebounds, 40% from three
Sr (35 min): 17 pts, 7 rebounds, 2 assists



Player G
Fr (25 min): 11 pts, 5 rebounds, 52% shooting
So (30 min): 14 pts, 6 rebounds, 4 assists
Jr (32 min): 18 pts, 6 rebounds, 58% shooting
Sr (36 min): 17 pts, 7 rebounds, 5 assists

Player H
Fr (25 min): 8 pts, 6 rebounds, 54% shooting
So (24 min): 9 pts, 5 rebounds, 55% shooting
Jr (36 min): 17 pts, 6 rebounds, 44% from three
Sr (35 min) 20 pts, 7 rebounds, 2 blocks


Of these guys, 2 are retired, 2 are being considered, 4 have not been retired. Thoughts?

[licc85]

Agreed. I think another N.C. would have gotten it, but without it, I don't see it, especially with the way he played in the last game (although that alone shouldn't decide it.) Overall, his career wasn't quite good enough.

it would a travesty if Nolan Smith's jersey wasn't retired, he affected this program in such a positive way and really changed the direction we were headed. If you need more proof, read this:

http://devilwolfing.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/nolan-smith-deserves-place-in-duke-history/

Nolan is the man and #2 should be retired

[rthomas]

Just thought this might be fun... present some players with, say, three cherry-picked stats (as well as minutes.) Eight players all together.

Of these guys, 2 are retired, 2 are being considered, 4 have not been retired. Thoughts?

Retire them all.

[superdave]

Just thought this might be fun... present some players with, say, three cherry-picked stats (as well as minutes.) Eight players all together.

Player A
Fr (15 min): 6 pts, 47% shooting, 38% from three
Soph (22 min): 8 pts, 2 assists, 42% shooting
Jr (36 min): 17 pts, 3 assists, 3 rebounds
Sr (34 min): 21 pts, 5 assists, 5 rebounds

Player B
Fr (25 min): 11 pts, 43% from three, 2 assists
Soph (30 min): 14 pts, 44% from three, 3 rebounds
Jr (29 min): 15 pts, 89% free throw, 3 rebounds
Sr (31 min): 17 pts, 44% from three, 46% shooting

Player C
Fr (36 min): 8 pts, 51% shooting, 5 assists
So (34 min): 8 pts, 6 assists, 2 rebounds
Jr (30 min): 6 pts, 6 assists, 2 steals
Sr (36 min): 12 pts, 4 assists, 2 steals

Player D
Fr (34 min): 12 pts, 3 rebounds, 2 assists
So (28 min): 12 pts, 4 rebounds, 2 assists
Jr (33 min): 15 pts, 4 rebounds, 3 assists
Sr (37 min): 18 pts, 4 rebounds, 5 assists

Player E
Fr (16 min): 6 pts, 58% shooting, 3 rebounds
So (22 min): 10 pts, 48% shooting, 4 rebounds
Jr (29 min): 10 pts, 5 rebounds, 3 assists
Sr (36 min): 17 pts, 6 rebounds, 3 assists

Player F
Fr (29 min): 13 pts, 46% shooting, 6 rebounds
So (32 min): 17 pts, 8 rebounds, 2 assists
Jr (36 min): 18 pts, 7 rebounds, 40% from three
Sr (35 min): 17 pts, 7 rebounds, 2 assists

Player G
Fr (25 min): 11 pts, 5 rebounds, 52% shooting
So (30 min): 14 pts, 6 rebounds, 4 assists
Jr (32 min): 18 pts, 6 rebounds, 58% shooting
Sr (36 min): 17 pts, 7 rebounds, 5 assists

Player H
Fr (25 min): 8 pts, 6 rebounds, 54% shooting
So (24 min): 9 pts, 5 rebounds, 55% shooting
Jr (36 min): 17 pts, 6 rebounds, 44% from three
Sr (35 min) 20 pts, 7 rebounds, 2 blocks

Of these guys, 2 are retired, 2 are being considered, 4 have not been retired. Thoughts?

A. Nolan, F. Kyle

B. Langdon, C. Amaker, D. Scheyer, E. Carrawell, G. Grant Hill, H. Battier

How did Cherokee Parks not make your list?

[gep]

I've searched the "usual" places, but didn't find much information on Duke's Hall of Honor. I think I first heard of this when Chris Duhon was so honored. From what I remember, players who don't rise to the "retired jersey" status can still be enshrined in the Hall of Honor. Would anyone have more information? Is it possible that Nolan, if not jersey retirement, can get into the Hall of Honor? For Duke Basketball, I would think this is still a great accomplishment.

[throatybeard]

I've searched the "usual" places, but didn't find much information on Duke's Hall of Honor. I think I first heard of this when Chris Duhon was so honored. From what I remember, players who don't rise to the "retired jersey" status can still be enshrined in the Hall of Honor. Would anyone have more information? Is it possible that Nolan, if not jersey retirement, can get into the Hall of Honor? For Duke Basketball, I would think this is still a great accomplishment.

I would say that Scheyer, Smith, and Singler are absolute shoo-ins for the Chris Moreland Memorial Chik-Fil-A Pavilion.

[Lord Ash]

A. Nolan, F. Kyle

B. Langdon, C. Amaker, D. Scheyer, E. Carrawell, G. Grant Hill, H. Battier

How did Cherokee Parks not make your list?

The point really wasn't a "who is who," which you can get just by looking at numbers. It was more a "Okay, looking at just these numbers, who would you think 'looks' like a retired number, and who doesn't?" Although Chief would have been an interesting one, as he really improved over the years, much as Nolan improved... Chief had a much more productive sophomore year, but Nolan's ceiling was higher...

Player P
Fr (13 min): 5 points, 57% shooting, 2 rebounds.
So (28 min): 12 points, 65% shooting, 7 rebounds
Jr (31 min): 14 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks
Sr (35 min): 19 points, 9 rebounds, 50% shooting

[Surfsideron]

IMHO, retire both.

Kyle's stats alone should do it. If I'm not mistaken he should be ahead of another jersey in at least three categories by years end. Plus, he could quite possible be NDPOY as well.

If Nolan is NPOY there is no question.
A Final Four, plus leading the league in scoring and assists, should do the trick as well. In this case he would almost surely be ACCPOY and a national champion. Don't think there should be much argument.

And while they have the ladder out, throw Scheyer up there as well!

I have always thought that once Kyle and Nolan graduated that they along with Scheyer would all have their jerseys retired. I think what they did last year, their overall stats and their Duke-like characteristics make them sure-fire candidates.
I'd be surprised not to see this happen as last year was special and these three guys made it so. That along with their individual accomplishments should be more than enough.

[superdave]

The point really wasn't a "who is who," which you can get just by looking at numbers. It was more a "Okay, looking at just these numbers, who would you think 'looks' like a retired number, and who doesn't?" Although Chief would have been an interesting one, as he really improved over the years, much as Nolan improved... Chief had a much more productive sophomore year, but Nolan's ceiling was higher...

Player P
Fr (13 min): 5 points, 57% shooting, 2 rebounds.
So (28 min): 12 points, 65% shooting, 7 rebounds
Jr (31 min): 14 points, 8 rebounds, 2 blocks
Sr (35 min): 19 points, 9 rebounds, 50% shooting

Chief's senior year was a little rough from a win-loss standpoint.
I wonder how many folks "remember" Amaker's stats being greater?
I do understand your point here. I also wonder how many folks have changed their minds in the last two weeks on Nolan, Kyle and Jon Scheyer. Watching us lose to Arizona last week made me think an awful lot about just how valuable Scheyer was last season.

[rthomas]

Regarding Nolan, there is more to consider than his stats. And that is his Ambassador of Duke status. Coach K calls him unique, "I don’t think anybody in my 31 years at Duke has had the impact that he has had on the students here." and "It seems that throughout the country everybody knows Nolan and everybody wants him to be his or her friend."

Nolan has increased the "likeability" of Duke more than any player I remember.

So with his "it" factor, along with his numbers, I think 2 should be retired.

[Acymetric]

Regarding Nolan, there is more to consider than his stats. And that is his Ambassador of Duke status. Coach K calls him unique, "I don’t think anybody in my 31 years at Duke has had the impact that he has had on the students here." and "It seems that throughout the country everybody knows Nolan and everybody wants him to be his or her friend."

Nolan has increased the "likeability" of Duke more than any player I remember.

So with his "it" factor, along with his numbers, I think 2 should be retired.

Agreed. If retirement is solely based on in-game performance I don't think Nolan quite cuts it...however if it includes the way he affected the program in other ways I think he's gotta be a lock. I wonder if we get Thornton, Irving, or Rivers without Nolan Smith here? Maybe, we're Duke and all...but just something to think about.

[johnb]

Likability, academics, and impact on the program aren't, as far as I've heard, variables in a jersey retirement. If they were, people like Langdon, Alarie and Spanarkel would be shoo-ins. As far as impact, you'd also have to add Gene Banks, who was Duke's first African-American star recruit. Heck, you'd also have to add Bilas, who is a daily reminder to lots of people about the positive qualities of Duke basketball players.

I also don't think a single game would make or break someone. If it did, neither JJ nor Shelden would have had their numbers retired since their teams underperformed in the NCAA tournament compared to many other Duke teams (not that they underperformed globally, of course, but one might think that teams packed with McD's A-A's and 2 jersey retirees would need to go further to be considered slam-dunk successes).

Neither NS nor KS is as obvious a choice as some of the early K retirees (was there even a debate about people like Dawkins, Hurley, Laettner, Hill?), and one could argue that if there is debate then the person isn't suitable for a Duke retirement.

On the other hand, K's comments about Nolan and Kyle are, I'd think, tip-offs. He can hardly say they're unique etc, and then NOT give them the ultimate Duke reward. And he does get to pick.

[Jason W]

Nolan tweeted something about being in Cameron looking up in he rafters that gave me the feeling he knew something already.