NC State: The Ugly Sister

[ice-9]

Provocative and insightful article: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/14667646/nc-state-fans-must-realize-theyre-the-ugly-duckling

On why being the NC State coach is the worst high paying job:


You know Khloe Kardashian, right?

...

Duke and North Carolina are Kim and Kourtney. N.C. State is Khloe. The Wolfpack can compete with most other basketball programs just like Khloe can compete with most other 26-year-old women, but the Wolfpack can't consistently compete with Duke and North Carolina in this era any more than Khloe can beat Kim and Kourtney in a bathing suit competition.

[Duvall]

Provocative and insightful article: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/14667646/nc-state-fans-must-realize-theyre-the-ugly-duckling

Well, inciteful anyway. Not much insight there.

It's pretty absurd to suggest that there's no middle ground between Sendek's consistent averageness and Hall of Fame coaching, and even more absurd to suggest that N.C. State is somehow permanently consigned to second-class status behind two school with sextagenarian coaches.

[papa whiskey]

As a guy who has lived my whole life in North Carolina and has a brother who went to State I can tell you there is a lot of truth in this article, especially in regards to the attitude of the fan base. What it doesn't mention is that it's even worse when it comes to football.

[pamtar]

Thanks for sharing. Good angle on what's sure to be a hot topic in the near future.

[JasonEvans]

One could easily have said the same thing about Duke in the mid-1970s. Duke was down, Carolina and NC State were both sky high. From 1973-1977, Duke was in the bottom 3 in the conference every year while State and Carolina were both in the top 3 each season. Duke had a run of 5 years where their ACC win totals were 4, 2, 2, 3, and 2 games.

I am sure an article written in 1977 would have said that Duke was Magda Gabor while NC State and UNC were Zsa Zsa and Eva.

-Jason "if NC State lands a good coach who can recruit and get his team playing good basketball, the rest will take care of itself" Evans

[Ping Lin]

NC State is still an attractive job, I'd wager.

Also part of this whole thing is that while UNC and Duke are still supreme, the rest of the conference is at a precipitous low, coaching- and talent- wise. There's very fertile ground for a coach to come in, with a good talent base in place, and get a place in the tournament immediately -- even making a deep run...even if wins against Duke and UNC are tough to come by.

[CameronBornAndBred]

Check out this article on WRAL.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9089458/



"Maybe I'm new to being a hardcore UNCheat hater but..seeing thr play in Cameron and seeing the way Duke killed us isnt exactly "uplifting".."
Tweeted by Julius Hodge.

[Matches]

In this era of national recruiting, I'm not sure I buy the idea that N.C. State is an inherently tougher job because of having to battle K and Roy for recruits. I can only recall a handful of recruiting battles between the schools over the last decade or so.

It is true that there is a not-insignificant faction of the State fanbase that has unrealistic expectations. There are also some shaky recollections about the Valvano years, with some fans speaking as if State was right there with Duke and UNC each year. (They weren't.)

I don't think fans should accept mediocrity, though. Sendek's program was mediocre and had peaked (and would have dropped off in '07 even if he stayed, due to player attrition). State has a rich if distant tradition, good facilities, plays in a high-profile conference, and has a rabid fanbase. They ought to be relevant nationally. They might not be top 10 every year, but they should have a national profile. Sendek's teams never did.

[epoulsen]

As a guy who has lived my whole life in North Carolina and has a brother who went to State I can tell you there is a lot of truth in this article, especially in regards to the attitude of the fan base. What it doesn't mention is that it's even worse when it comes to football.

Agreed. Most of my State friends have stopped caring about basketball entirely, they still have hope (with good reason) for football. As a kid, aside from the CIS tickets from my mothers work friends, the only way I could see Duke play at a reasonable price was to go to Reynolds and eventually the ESA (RBC if you like), this eventually lead to season tickets as the other ACC matchups were too good to miss between 95 and 03. I witnessed first hand the "downward spiral" of State basketball. State had some very die hard basketball fans who have since abandoned hope (anyone remember Slappy?), but without good reason. Sendak was a good coach, he was able to wrangle some good talent. Remember Todd Fuller (I think Herb actually inherited Fuller), Archie Miller, Hodge and Grundy? He was the 2004 ACC COY. I'm sure this has all been discussed at great legnth in another thread so I'll stop, it's just a shame that NC State's program has devolved to this level.

[Fletch]

In this era of national recruiting, I'm not sure I buy the idea that N.C. State is an inherently tougher job because of having to battle K and Roy for recruits. I can only recall a handful of recruiting battles between the schools over the last decade or so.

It is true that there is a not-insignificant faction of the State fanbase that has unrealistic expectations. There are also some shaky recollections about the Valvano years, with some fans speaking as if State was right there with Duke and UNC each year. (They weren't.)

I don't think fans should accept mediocrity, though. Sendek's program was mediocre and had peaked (and would have dropped off in '07 even if he stayed, due to player attrition). State has a rich if distant tradition, good facilities, plays in a high-profile conference, and has a rabid fanbase. They ought to be relevant nationally. They might not be top 10 every year, but they should have a national profile. Sendek's teams never did.

Many of these national media guys like to make fun of State fans and talk about our "unrealistic expectations" and how "delusional" we are. They cannot understand the difference between wants or desires and expectations/demands. Sure, State fans would like to be a consistent top ten team, annually compete for ACC & NCAA Championships, and be considered one of the best basketball programs in the nation ... find me a fan who wouldn't? Most of us do not expect this.

The quote above in bold is a perfect misconception of our fans. People like Seth Davis lecture us by saying that State will always be "3rd fiddle" as long as Roy & K are around. "Better get used to that," they say. Newsflash: State has almost always been second or third fiddle in the ACC. We know this. This secondary status did not, however stop State from winning 2 nc's and win 10 acc championships. We just want State to be in the conversation and compete with the best.

Most of us look back to the 80's with fond memories, but there was not one single year where we were clearly the best team in the ACC, must less the country. UNC-CH was better every year in the 80's. In 1983 both UNC-CH & UVA were ranked in the top ten all season. My recollections of the 1980's may be "shaky," but I know that State won 2 ACC Championships (83,87), finished first in the regular season twice (85,89), made two Elite 8's (85,86), one Sweet Sixteen (89), and won one National Championship (83). Every sane State fan will take results like that forever. Who cares if UNC & Duke are better programs every season if we can have results like that.

State fans simply want to compete with the big boys. Our last 3 coaches have not. Maybe the next coach will be more successful. I hope so. I've been waiting for 20 years.

[Slackerb]

What is with the national media eviscerating NC State and saying they should just accept mediocrity? Here's another "insight" by Seth Davis:

http://www.cbssports.com/video/player/play/collegebasketball/1Sv0E3Bk9vx6s9X6bwp3pb6pQKqxCQcS/the-struggles-of-nc-state

I'm sorry, but the original article it seems like he's just trying to be the new Greg Doyel....

Here's a response by WRAL's Joe Ovies that I thought was good:

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/9076582/

It seems as years go by, Herb Sendek's career at State has grown to truly noteworthy levels. Sure they guy got them to the tourney for 5 straight years...he won exactly 1 NCAA game in that same span. The five years before that, 0 NCAA tourneys...just like Lowe. So in 10 years, Herb achieved 1 NCAA tourney game win, 0 ACC titles, 0 regular season titles, etc. Paul Hewitt, for example, fared far better over that stretch. But for some reason (I assume it's based on how horrible Lowe is), Herb is remembered as a success.

State shouldn't expect to hire a Calipari, but neither should they have to accept the likes of Sid or someone the caliber of Herb. The State job is tough, but definitely not desirable. As mentioned above, you actually don't have to compete with UNC and Duke with recruits (not anymore than anyone else), you have a rabid, if delusional fan base (to maintain the attendance they have over the past 15 years with a mediocre at best program is amazing really), great facilities, and an old tradition to resurrect.

As mentioned above, you could easily lose to the rivals often and still have a very good team and succeed at State. It's really a pretty good job, IMO. Of course the fan base is a little crazy...they have had Les Robinson, Herb Sendek, and Sidney Lowe as coaches recently...wouldn't you be as well?

[Fletch]

I find it immensely fascinating that all these national media guys are commenting on lowly 11th place NC State. Name me another program (& fanbase) that gets called out as much as State fans have in the last few years. "Know your place!"

[Devil Spawn]

I finally am coming to the reluctant conclusion that a coaching change needs to be made. I was a freshman at State in '83 when Sidney and his teammates won it all - a true Cinderella run if there ever was one, and I'll always cherish that team and Sidney's contributions - but there's too much talent now present at State, even if young, to be losing this much, and in this fashion. At the Duke game State couldn't even complete an uncontested inbounds pass. Totally unacceptable at this level.

State and ITB Raleigh are much more interesting places than back in '83 and I think the school and community are thus more attractive to recruits. Unfortunately, the rapidly fading memory of State's basketball achievements and place in the Southern Conference/ACC history are likely not much of a factor anymore.

A premier coach (with a better W/L record) is going to be necessary to draw elite players, but it's tough to find a person willing to take on the task of playing in the shadow of Duke and UNC - Wake pretty much assumed State's place during the Duncan era, and State's never regained it's position among the top three State schools.

(I'm a Duke fan because my dad ran track and played basketball for Duke from '38-'41 - right after the earth cooled.)

[Wander]

It seems as years go by, Herb Sendek's career at State has grown to truly noteworthy levels. Sure they guy got them to the tourney for 5 straight years...he won exactly 1 NCAA game in that same span.

What? NC State won an NCAA game in 2006, made the Sweet 16 in 2005, and won an NCAA game in 2004.

[Slackerb]

What? NC State won an NCAA game in 2006, made the Sweet 16 in 2005, and won an NCAA game in 2004.

Doh, guess I was confused. I was thinking he only went past the first weekend once.

Still, the point remains...it was basically a mediocre career. For example: Sendek finished his NC State coaching career with a 71–88 record in the ACC and a 32–87 record against RPI top 50 teams.

[Kfanarmy]

I don't think fans should accept mediocrity, though. Sendek's program was mediocre and had peaked (and would have dropped off in '07 even if he stayed, due to player attrition). ... They might not be top 10 every year, but they should have a national profile. Sendek's teams never did. How exactly does a team make the NCAAT every year, in the ACC , and not have a national profile? I'm with the author, the measuring stick may be too long. Your standard seems to be that #11-25 is acceptable but #25-40 of out 300+ division one teams and a top 4 finish in the ACC is mediocrity. To me, that is not a "fair" measure.

If, however, the standard is relative to the $ spent on the hire, you can have any standard you want as long as the $ is competitive with what the peer group is getting.

[Fletch]

State hasn't defeated K in Cameron since 1988 -- when Valvano was coaching. Beating Duke is not everything to State's program, but if this can't happen at least once every 3-8 years, then you don't have a top ACC program.

In summary: Herb lost every game he played in Cameron. So has Sidney. Les lost every game, but the one played in 1995 when K was out with back trouble.

You guys know as Duke fans, you haven't felt pressure from any State team in decades, including the Herb teams.

[loran16]

I finally am coming to the reluctant conclusion that a coaching change needs to be made.

Finally? Really?

Anyhow, the Lowe thing is irrelevant. The point is however, still true, that the NC State situation is one where they're unlikely to be able to poach away any coach of a major school. The only one who has potential is Tubby Smith, but I think he's too old (he was rightfully described on an NC State blog as high floor, low ceiling).

State will be best served grabbing a coach of a mid-major and hoping to luck into a star. I just hope they realize that and don't waste time trying to entice coaches who won't realistically leave.

[DukieInBrasil]

I don't think fans should accept mediocrity, though. Sendek's program was mediocre and had peaked (and would have dropped off in '07 even if he stayed, due to player attrition). State has a rich if distant tradition, good facilities, plays in a high-profile conference, and has a rabid fanbase. They ought to be relevant nationally. They might not be top 10 every year, but they should have a national profile. Sendek's teams never did.
Yeah, the NCAA tournament isn't really a national profile type event. C'mon, Herb took the Pack to the tourney several times, and the Pack was ranked in the top 25 at least a few times during his tenure. He may not have been exciting or prolific, but his teams certainly did have some national profile. Certainly much more than Lowe's cellar dweller teams have had.

[miramar]

Yeah, the NCAA tournament isn't really a national profile type event. C'mon, Herb took the Pack to the tourney several times, and the Pack was ranked in the top 25 at least a few times during his tenure. He may not have been exciting or prolific, but his teams certainly did have some national profile. Certainly much more than Lowe's cellar dweller teams have had.

After Herb left town to the general relief of the Pack faithful, I wondered how they could expect to get anyone better. I won't have the same thought with Sidney, but now I wonder if they would be happy to get back to Herb's level, boring teams and all.

[throatybeard]

The copious State peeps I know are still sick of Herb, irrespective of the current situation.

[Johnboy]

The copious State peeps I know are still sick of Herb, irrespective of the current situation.

This. My friends from State (and they a legion) do not miss Herb. Most of them are reasonable about what they expect - they want State to be competitive but are not as unrealistic as they are being portrayed in the media. There is no reason why State cannot return to the national prominence it enjoyed in the 1970s and 80s under Sloan and Valvano. In sum, there's no good reason why State should have to take a back seat to the likes of Maryland and Georgia Tech in the national basketball landscape, and that's accepting that Duke and UNC remain at the top of the heap on a regular basis (which itself is not a given - basketball fortunes can fade quickly, e.g., 1995 Duke or the Doherty years at UNC).

[77devil]

Provocative and insightful article


Well, inciteful anyway.

No, insightful is correct unless you prefer slang and redundancy.

Another great article on the front page by resident historian Al Featherston debunks the myth.

[Nugget]

I don't buy in to the premise that NC State is eternally consigned to third party status behind Duke and UNC.

But, what really floored me was to see the stark stat that Duke and UNC have made 20(!) Final Fours since State's last one. For a program as proud as State's that is just hard to imagine.

[hq2]

There is no reason why State cannot return to the national prominence it enjoyed in the 1970s and 80s under Sloan and Valvano.

Norm was up there with Deano back in the day in detestability (who can forget the infamous 12-10 game.) Valvano's program was a mess. Regardless of the truth of other allegations about his program, his graduation rates were atrocious; he took a large number of kids, promised them an education or an NBA career, and pitched them in the street with neither while he got very rich and famous. If that's what State fans want again, they can have it.

The problem with State is, that it is what it is. It's right next to Duke and Carolina, both of which are academically better and much more beautiful and highly regarded schools. And, it's an agricultural and technical school, which doesn't have a lot of cachet with recruits. That means that usually the players State can get are marginal students who Duke or Carolina (especially the latter) didn't want or who couldn't cut it there academically.

What happened to State since Valvano left is that they had to run an honest, reputable program again; and that meant they couldn't do anything borderline or questionable with regard to recruiting or academics to offset their natural disadvantages. So, now they are what they are; an unattractive agricultural and technical school located next to two national powerhouses. There isn't that much they can do about it. Hard to see them becoming a national power again any time soon, short of a Gene Banks-style recruiting miracle.

[Fletch]

Norm was up there with Deano back in the day in detestability (who can forget the infamous 12-10 game.) Valvano's program was a mess. Regardless of the truth of other allegations about his program, his graduation rates were atrocious; he took a large number of kids, promised them an education or an NBA career, and pitched them in the street with neither while he got very rich and famous. If that's what State fans want again, they can have it.

The problem with State is, that it is what it is. It's right next to Duke and Carolina, both of which are academically better and much more beautiful and highly regarded schools. And, it's an agricultural and technical school, which doesn't have a lot of cachet with recruits. That means that usually the players State can get are marginal students who Duke or Carolina (especially the latter) didn't want or who couldn't cut it there academically.

What happened to State since Valvano left is that they had to run an honest, reputable program again; and that meant they couldn't do anything borderline or questionable with regard to recruiting or academics to offset their natural disadvantages. So, now they are what they are; an unattractive agricultural and technical school located next to two national powerhouses. There isn't that much they can do about it. Hard to see them becoming a national power again any time soon, short of a Gene Banks-style recruiting miracle.


Could you sound any more pompous, arrogant, and holier-than-thou?

[hq2]

My own memories of both Norm Sloan and James T. Valvano do not incline me to be particularly charitable to N.C. State basketball. It is what it is. It's hard to describe it any other way. If you think it was pompous, so be it.

[Fletch]

It's understandable that a Duke fan might not like Sloan or V; their teams would win more than 1 out of 10 against Duke.

[hq2]

No, other programs beat Duke more than that in the old days too, but they didn't do it like that. The 12-10 game knocked a deserving Duke team out of the NCAAs, where they didn't appear again for nearly a decade. I never forgave Norm for that. Others will remember other Norm incidents too.

And as for Valvano, although the way his teams played was fine and he was not personally offensive, his program was a mess. I never believed all the allegations behind that book by the student manager 20 years ago. (Why would they want to pay off student managers? For what?). Nonetheless his program had a pervasive aura of sleaze and lack of genuine concern for the welfare of his players, which is what Les Robinson had to clean up. There are reasons why I do not remember either of them favorably.

[Duvall]

No, insightful is correct unless you prefer slang and redundancy.

Or if you're trying to describe a column that generated heat but very little light.


The problem with State is, that it is what it is. It's right next to Duke and Carolina, both of which are academically better and much more beautiful and highly regarded schools. And, it's an agricultural and technical school, which doesn't have a lot of cachet with recruits.

It's certainly held back Purdue over the years.


That means that usually the players State can get are marginal students who Duke or Carolina (especially the latter) didn't want or who couldn't cut it there academically.

Unless they rely on undervalued players and the occasional gem, like most other consistently successful programs. It's worked pretty well for Maryland.


What happened to State since Valvano left is that they had to run an honest, reputable program again; and that meant they couldn't do anything borderline or questionable with regard to recruiting or academics to offset their natural disadvantages. So, now they are what they are; an unattractive agricultural and technical school located next to two national powerhouses. There isn't that much they can do about it.

Not sure that national powerhouse problem will be as much of an issue in 5-10 years.

[hq2]

Unless they rely on undervalued players and the occasional gem, like most other consistently successful programs. It's worked pretty well for Maryland.

They could do it. It's not out of the question, and they've actually had some respectable players in recent years (Josh Powell and a few others). But it hasn't been enough, or they haven't all been there at one time. They need to get about 3 decent players there at once to really change things. Who knows it may happen. After all, back in the 70s, we thought Duke would be permanently consigned to last in the conference because we couldn't recruit less academically qualified players. (While State was the winning the national championship!). State just hasn't figured out how to do it yet. Who knows, they might some day.

[Matches]

Yeah, the NCAA tournament isn't really a national profile type event. C'mon, Herb took the Pack to the tourney several times, and the Pack was ranked in the top 25 at least a few times during his tenure. He may not have been exciting or prolific, but his teams certainly did have some national profile. Certainly much more than Lowe's cellar dweller teams have had.

State was a bubble team most of those years (2004 really being the exception). When I say "national profile", I mean a team that is in the discussion of teams that have a chance to make a deep run into the tournament. No one viewed Sendek's State teams as legitimate threats to do that - even the 2005 Sweet 16 was a surprise.

IMO Sendek's State teams never got better than "pretty good". They were competent teams, capable of finishing in the upper half of the ACC, but that's about it. I don't think it's realistic for State fans to expect Top 10 finishes every year, or maybe even most years, but I think the program can do better than "pretty good".

[Slackerb]

I'm pretty sure the giant Al Featherstone article on the front page just expounds on what I was saying.


State shouldn't expect to hire a Calipari, but neither should they have to accept the likes of Sid or someone the caliber of Herb. The State job is tough, but definitely not undesirable. As mentioned above, you actually don't have to compete with UNC and Duke with recruits (not anymore than anyone else), you have a rabid, if delusional fan base (to maintain the attendance they have over the past 15 years with a mediocre at best program is amazing really), great facilities, and an old tradition to resurrect.

As mentioned above, you could easily lose to the rivals often and still have a very good team and succeed at State. It's really a pretty good job, IMO. Of course the fan base is a little crazy...they have had Les Robinson, Herb Sendek, and Sidney Lowe as coaches recently...wouldn't you be as well?

[ACCHoopsFan1]

State was a bubble team most of those years (2004 really being the exception). When I say "national profile", I mean a team that is in the discussion of teams that have a chance to make a deep run into the tournament. No one viewed Sendek's State teams as legitimate threats to do that - even the 2005 Sweet 16 was a surprise.

IMO Sendek's State teams never got better than "pretty good". They were competent teams, capable of finishing in the upper half of the ACC, but that's about it. I don't think it's realistic for State fans to expect Top 10 finishes every year, or maybe even most years, but I think the program can do better than "pretty good".


This new notion from the National Media that fans of a program with 10 ACC Titles(plus way more than that if you count the old Southern Conference) and 2 National Titles should somehow feel bad for Sendek leaving and should just accept their current fate is rooted in slightly more reality than that of the Harry Potter movies. We wouldn't put up with Sendeks and Lowe's and neither should State fans.

[Devil Spawn]

During the last twenty years State diversified its curriculum and raised the quality of its School of Humanities - celebrated Southern fiction writer Lee Smith even resigned from UNC-CH in the 80's and "defected" to State. The perennially top 5 nationally ranked Design school has alway been composed of free-thinking, interesting folks, not the stereotypical slide rule carrying A&T types. The News and Observer ran a story a few years ago noting that State's incoming freshman class had higher GPA's and associated test scores than UNC-CH class. State's really come along well.

Raleigh has rebuilt its downtown and adjacent neighborhoods to great effect - even when compared to the efforts Durham has made. There's a vibrant restaurant, club, arts, and street scene in Raleigh that's larger than what Chapel Hill and Durham have to offer.

Raleigh and State aren't the black holes that some posters would have you believe. Especially when you consider that high level recruits can be induced to go to school in small college towns in regions like the Midwest and Prairie states where there is very little to do outside of hanging out on campus. Ever been to Norman OK or Manhattan KS, for example? Bloomington IN is a cute little college town similar to Chapel Hill, but there's not much else in the area other than farms.

One attractant to State can and has been the close proximity to the other schools - when my Dad was playing ball at Duke he told me in the off season he would head over to Chapel Hill with some classmates and hang out with UNC players - and that happens now, too.

[tecumseh]

The problem with many of you fans is you see things in an ACC centric fashion. Yes when Norm Sloan was there the ACC was the best basketball in the country BUT there was no Big East and no ESPN and limited early entry into the NBA. Different time, different universe.

The local talent pool for State is limited and they have to fend off UNC, Duke, Wake and others so they do not have the potential there of say a St. Johns or even a University of Colorado. The days of getting a Larry Bird and having him stay and turn a program into a contender are gone. At a certain point perceptions become reality and that reality is NC State will always be playing second fiddle to UNC and Duke, we are talking about 16 yr old kids here and what they think.

What is the appeal of State? The fan base...average. The physical setting....average. The tradition....ancient history. Getting the snot kicked out of you on national TV several times a year by UNC and Duke?

[Matches]

What is the appeal of State? The fan base...average. The physical setting....average. The tradition....ancient history. Getting the snot kicked out of you on national TV several times a year by UNC and Duke?

Couldn't you replace "State" with "Maryland" and make the same argument? Yet Maryland won a NC, an ACCT, a regular season ACCT, went to 2 Final Fours and competed reasonably well with both Duke and UNC in the last decade.

A ton of the appeal of any college basketball program is the coach. Put a good coach in place and players will come.

Also - State's fanbase at least locally is probably about as large as Duke's if not larger. Our only distinct advantage over them in terms of facilities is that our campus is prettier than theirs. Raleigh is at least as desirable a destination as Durham and probably moreso.

[DevilWearsPrada]

Provocative and insightful article: http://www.cbssports.com/collegebasketball/story/14667646/nc-state-fans-must-realize-theyre-the-ugly-duckling

On why being the NC State coach is the worst high paying job:

YOU compared Kim and Kourtney... the Kardashian sisters to the younger sister, Khloe, which is Lamar Odom's wife (LA Lakers). And said NcState is like Khloe K Odom.
I Find that very very offensive, to compare the 3 K-dash sisters. Having watched their shows on the E network, the Keeping Up with the Kardashians, and Khloe and Kourtney take Miami, and then Kim and Kourtney take NY.... I personally like Khloe K Odom, the best. Khloe has the best personality. She says how she feels, and never sugar coats anything.

Kourtney and brother Rob are the college grads. But have branded themselves over the last few years. Thanks to Kim K for being out with friend, Paris Hilton, because Nicole Ritchie, was preggers. The K-dash sisters or the K-dash/Jenner sisters shouldnt be compared to one another. Each has their own talents and strengths. AS, a woman, I think KHLOE is both beautiful, smart and extremely witty. AND very tall!!!

Please dont compare NCState or Unc, or Duke to the K-Dolls! Kim K has dated many a pro athlete, and has had cosmetic surgery (she did on the show), and sister Kourt, has also. KHLOE ODOM is a beautiful young lady, that is married to a wonderful NBA player Larry Odom.... that was on the USA team with Coach K. Khloe traveled with her husby to those USA games, and blogged and twitted about them.

Each sister is beautiful in their own way. YOU are comparing the model Kim.... to her other siblings, which are all beautiful, like their Mother, Kris K Jenner. I love that Khloe is TALL, and not a size 0 (which isnt a size).... she is a full figured young lady (26 yrs old, perhaps). She represents WOMEN very well, And Khloe is beautiful!!! I am sure, since she is A NBA wifey, and traveled with the USA team, that Coach K and staff thought she represented her husband, and the USA team very well.

I find that you compare sisters.... well I didnt like that.. I am sure Coach K's daughters have been compared. BUT dont put it in a forum.

KHLOE K ODOM is a part of the DUKE TEAM!!! USA TEAM COACH was COACH K... REMEMBER THAT!!!

AND NCState looked pretty good vs Wake. I know it was Wake, but at least State got a good win.

[SCMatt33]

Couldn't you replace "State" with "Maryland" and make the same argument? Yet Maryland won a NC, an ACCT, a regular season ACCT, went to 2 Final Fours and competed reasonably well with both Duke and UNC in the last decade.

A ton of the appeal of any college basketball program is the coach. Put a good coach in place and players will come.

Also - State's fanbase at least locally is probably about as large as Duke's if not larger. Our only distinct advantage over them in terms of facilities is that our campus is prettier than theirs. Raleigh is at least as desirable a destination as Durham and probably moreso.

Maybe I missed something, but I'm not getting this whole "why would anyone want to go to State" thing. The only thing that State has done well recently is recruit. They have done a good job at getting guys to show up, but haven't gotten them to play well, or to stay long enough to develop.

[gumbomoop]

Sorry that, as it appears, Sid will not get a chance to coach the Pack next season. IMO, unless some guys leave, State should be in the fight for 3d place with Miami and possibly FSU or VaTech.

Anyhow, Ryan Harrow is going to be very good, as are a couple of other fellows.

I'd like to see Sid get one more chance with this good recruiting class, but doesn't look that way.

[throatybeard]

During the last twenty years State diversified its curriculum and raised the quality of its School of Humanities - celebrated Southern fiction writer Lee Smith even resigned from UNC-CH in the 80's and "defected" to State. The perennially top 5 nationally ranked Design school has alway been composed of free-thinking, interesting folks, not the stereotypical slide rule carrying A&T types. The News and Observer ran a story a few years ago noting that State's incoming freshman class had higher GPA's and associated test scores than UNC-CH class. State's really come along well.

Raleigh has rebuilt its downtown and adjacent neighborhoods to great effect - even when compared to the efforts Durham has made. There's a vibrant restaurant, club, arts, and street scene in Raleigh that's larger than what Chapel Hill and Durham have to offer.

Raleigh and State aren't the black holes that some posters would have you believe. Especially when you consider that high level recruits can be induced to go to school in small college towns in regions like the Midwest and Prairie states where there is very little to do outside of hanging out on campus. Ever been to Norman OK or Manhattan KS, for example? Bloomington IN is a cute little college town similar to Chapel Hill, but there's not much else in the area other than farms.

One attractant to State can and has been the close proximity to the other schools - when my Dad was playing ball at Duke he told me in the off season he would head over to Chapel Hill with some classmates and hang out with UNC players - and that happens now, too.

This is a fantastic counterpoint to some rather rude and ill-informed snot. I salute the poster, because I wouldn't have been nearly as kind in rebuttal.

The first thing we've got to get away from is this bankrupt assumption that all that matters is what percentage of undergrads you reject. That has fairly little to do with the quality of the school in the grand scheme of things. The quality of the faculty is 10X more important--they're actually around for more than four or five years--and State's is excellent for a land-grant R1, and indeed, for anywhere.

[Newton_14]

This new notion from the National Media that fans of a program with 10 ACC Titles(plus way more than that if you count the old Southern Conference) and 2 National Titles should somehow feel bad for Sendek leaving and should just accept their current fate is rooted in slightly more reality than that of the Harry Potter movies. We wouldn't put up with Sendeks and Lowe's and neither should State fans.

Hogwash I say. The whole "State needs to know its role and place" and they cannot possibly compete with Duke and UNC is ludicrous. Same for the "State is somehow not a good school" allegation. I am surrounded at work by numerous State grads, and the large majority of them are great at their jobs and are highly intelligent people.

As for the basketball, all it takes is the right coach. Easier said than done for sure, but certainly not impossible. If they get a guy who can both coach and recruit well, they could turn it around quickly and sustain it. Wake Forest over the years has had good and great teams and competed with Duke and UNC. They are on a down cycle at the moment but they certainly have had their share of great players in the last 15 years.

There is absolutely no reason why NC State cannot be a strong basketball program. The coaching hire is going to be critical for sure, but the right man is out there, Yow just needs to find him. K and Dean were once nobody's in the sport, as were countless other good/great coaches.

If the ACC is going to rebound back to its rightful place as the best basketball conference, it starts with getting great coaches into the league. I wish Yow well in the search that most feel has already begun..

[hq2]

Well, the real problem with State is that they're too near to Duke and Carolina. State isn't a bad public university by any means, but anyone who looks at the State campus and the other two will find it hard to see the State one as more attractive. And, State does not have a b-ball tradition any more (too long ago). If they were someplace else besides near the other two schools, they would have less trouble resurrecting their program. When they have to compete with Carolina for similar players (especially in-state, where Carolina almost always gets the best) they usually lose.

[taiw93]

Well, the real problem with State is that they're too near to Duke and Carolina. State isn't a bad public university by any means, but anyone who looks at the State campus and the other two will find it hard to see the State one as more attractive. And, State does not have a b-ball tradition any more (too long ago). If they were someplace else besides near the other two schools, they would have less trouble resurrecting their program. When they have to compete with Carolina for similar players (especially in-state, where Carolina almost always gets the best) they usually lose.

The thing is, though, their last few recruiting classes have been pretty darn good. In fact, almost all of their recruiting classes under Lowe have been highly rated - not on the level of Duke and UNC, obviously, but still very good. The problem with them now is that Lowe cannot seem to motivate his guys AT ALL. The talent, though, is certainly there IMHO

[jimsumner]

Well, the real problem with State is that they're too near to Duke and Carolina. State isn't a bad public university by any means, but anyone who looks at the State campus and the other two will find it hard to see the State one as more attractive. And, State does not have a b-ball tradition any more (too long ago). If they were someplace else besides near the other two schools, they would have less trouble resurrecting their program. When they have to compete with Carolina for similar players (especially in-state, where Carolina almost always gets the best) they usually lose.

I'm pretty sure State was just as close to Duke and Carolina from 1947 through 1990 or so as they are now. Norm Sloan came back to his alma mater when Vic Bubas and Dean Smith were nearby and won an NCAA title within a decade. Jim Valvano didn't back away from the competition, fellows named Smith and Krzyzewski.

K does cast an imposing shadow and a lot of top coaches would decline the opportunity to go head-to-head. But State only needs one to say yes.

Relatively few of the top ACC coaches made lateral moves from other top-tier schools. Frank McGuire, Gary Williams, Roy Williams, probably a few others.

But Everett Case had never coached a college team before he arrived at State. Dean Smith, Vic Bubas, Dave Odom and Bones McKinney were assistants when they took over as head coaches. Sloan came from Florida at a time when they barely tried in hoops. K, Valvano, Bobby Cremins, Lefty, Terry Holland, Bill Foster, Cliff Ellis, Harold Bradley, Pat Kennedy and so many others came to ACC schools from schools and conferences further down the food chain.

NC State is a respected national research university, plays in a power conference, is located in a city frequently cited as one of the best cities in the country in which to live, has a 19,000 seat arena, and boasts a large, local fan base that sometimes causes problems but is dying to support a winner.

There may not be a Krzyzewski out there for State but there's some talent out there willing and eager to give it a shot. Forget Rick Barnes and Jay Wright and go after the next up-and-comer. State and their new AD just have to find the right one.

It ain't easy. If it was, then everyone would do it. But it can be done.

[tecumseh]

Couldn't you replace "State" with "Maryland" and make the same argument? Yet Maryland won a NC, an ACCT, a regular season ACCT, went to 2 Final Fours and competed reasonably well with both Duke and UNC in the last decade.

A ton of the appeal of any college basketball program is the coach. Put a good coach in place and players will come.

Also - State's fanbase at least locally is probably about as large as Duke's if not larger. Our only distinct advantage over them in terms of facilities is that our campus is prettier than theirs. Raleigh is at least as desirable a destination as Durham and probably moreso.

First off Maryland was particularly good when Georgetown was bad and you have a much deeper talent pool to tap there....the DC Metro area. Secondly the fan base at State is good I am not denying that but better than Iowa or Arkansas or Michigan or a host of other schools? I agree so much depends upon the coach and a coach can build a program it is just that NC State is not that great a place to build a program very average you can argue no better than Michigan, Iowa, Cal, USC, Colorado, Indiana, Hawaii, Saint Louis U, Hawaii, DePaul,etc, etc. AND again the perception is the reality that UNC and Duke are dominant and it is hopeless to compete against them and this is yardstick the locals will use. I think NC State coaching job is particularly unattractive.

[Duvall]

Well, the real problem with State is that they're too near to Duke and Carolina. State isn't a bad public university by any means, but anyone who looks at the State campus and the other two will find it hard to see the State one as more attractive. And, State does not have a b-ball tradition any more (too long ago). If they were someplace else besides near the other two schools, they would have less trouble resurrecting their program. When they have to compete with Carolina for similar players (especially in-state, where Carolina almost always gets the best) they usually lose.

I'm not sure why proximity matters - State doesn't have to play Duke and Carolina much more than any other team in the ACC. And NC State already has the two hardest parts of a rebuilding effort taken care of - they have a sizable, active fanbase, and decent facilities. State doesn't have to win fans away from Duke and UNC - they already *have* fans.

And State doesn't have to compete with Carolina for recruits - aside from Kentucky, Duke and a handful of other schools, *nobody* competes with UNC for similar players. Many teams have built successful programs by landing the players that aren't quite elite enough to draw the attention of the Heels, and there's no reason that NC State can't do the same.

The hard part's over, really. All they need now is a coach.

[tecumseh]

I still think the NC State job is a pretty lousy job to have. Yeah Maryland did OK but that was when Georgetown was down and you had prime dibs on the DC Metro area, State does not have that kind of luxury. Like the St. Johns job is attractive because of the local recruiting base. If you look at the recruiting base, Triangle area and North Carolina it is not that big and you have to fight Carolina (and to much lesser extent Duke) and even Wake for it. Even places like Colorado and St. Louis U and DePaul and Georgia Tech look better from an ease of recruiting locals.

If you look to recruit nationally it is a tough sell, sure it has some ancient (to a 16 yr old) history and rabid fan base but so does Iowa, Michigan, Indiana. Raleigh is OK but it is not Boulder or Berkley or Honolulu. Plus there is this perception that Oh Yeah State is that ugly sister school to Duke and Carolina. AND there is the perception that the yardstick you will be measured by is Duke and Carolina and the fan base will not be happy if you lose to them all the time.

No I think State is a terrible job and will not get better until things change in Chapel Hill or Durham. Yeah Coach Williams and K are getting older but there is a decent chance that one school and maybe both might make a successful transition to a younger coach. The other aspect is that in this era of one an done it is soooo hard to elevate a program to compete with the Dukes and Carolinas.

[Matches]

I'm not sure why proximity matters - State doesn't have to play Duke and Carolina much more than any other team in the ACC.

This. I get that the fans are intermingled in a way that, for example, Duke and Maryland's are not. But any team in the ACC has to compete with Duke and UNC, just like any team in the Big East has to compete with UConn and Syracuse.

And as far as recruiting goes - we have exactly one rotation player from North Carolina. It's rare that Duke and State are after the same people - happens once in awhile but not very often. Yes, they do compete to some extent with UNC for recruits, but that's always been the case. Recruiting ain't the problem at State - Sid has landed two a-list recruits and several other really good ones in his 5 years. The problem has been what's happened after those guys arrived on campus.

[CharlestonDevil]

I'm pretty sure State was just as close to Duke and Carolina from 1947 through 1990 or so as they are now. Norm Sloan came back to his alma mater when Vic Bubas and Dean Smith were nearby and won an NCAA title within a decade. Jim Valvano didn't back away from the competition, fellows named Smith and Krzyzewski.

K does cast an imposing shadow and a lot of top coaches would decline the opportunity to go head-to-head. But State only needs one to say yes.

Relatively few of the top ACC coaches made lateral moves from other top-tier schools. Frank McGuire, Gary Williams, Roy Williams, probably a few others.

But Everett Case had never coached a college team before he arrived at State. Dean Smith, Vic Bubas, Dave Odom and Bones McKinney were assistants when they took over as head coaches. Sloan came from Florida at a time when they barely tried in hoops. K, Valvano, Bobby Cremins, Lefty, Terry Holland, Bill Foster, Cliff Ellis, Harold Bradley, Pat Kennedy and so many others came to ACC schools from schools and conferences further down the food chain.

NC State is a respected national research university, plays in a power conference, is located in a city frequently cited as one of the best cities in the country in which to live, has a 19,000 seat arena, and boasts a large, local fan base that sometimes causes problems but is dying to support a winner.

There may not be a Krzyzewski out there for State but there's some talent out there willing and eager to give it a shot. Forget Rick Barnes and Jay Wright and go after the next up-and-comer. State and their new AD just have to find the right one.

It ain't easy. If it was, then everyone would do it. But it can be done.

My favorite radio talk show host likes to say "Electing the right presidential candidate is no harder than nominating the right person." While in actuality this is probably harder than it sounds, I think it certainly applies to your argument above. NCSU is only one hiring of "the right guy" away from being a legitimate program and contender with Duke and UNC again.

You could never convince me that Duke and UNC are just so big and bad that other coaches moving up in the ranks would not take a job in the ACC just to avoid them. While I am sure it is initmidating on the court and in the recruiting circuits, when it comes down to it, being a head coach of an ACC basketball team is a pretty prestigious position. I mean, would you really rather be the best coach in the A-10?

[ice-9]

YOU compared Kim and Kourtney ... I Find that very very offensive, to compare the 3 K-dash sisters ... Please dont compare NCState or Unc, or Duke to the K-Dolls! ... YOU are comparing the model Kim ... I find that you compare sisters.... well I didnt like that.. I am sure Coach K's daughters have been compared. BUT dont put it in a forum.

Uhm...I'm not Gary Parrish. I didn't write that article or compare the three NC teams to the "K-Dolls," though I found GARY PARRISH'S comparison interesting.

Also, I don't know very much (really, anything) of the Kardashian sisters, so I don't know whether what Parrish wrote was offensive. Apparently it is to you though I wish you'd direct your ire at him instead of me.

Finally, did you give me a negative rating because of this?? Aww man...

[ice-9]

The points seem quite straightforward:

- NC State fans expect (justifiably as per Featherston's article) the program to be on par with Duke and UNC

- However, recruits today do not recognze that brand equity, so the tradition and expectations are more of a burden than a boon

- Duke and UNC are the pinnacle of the sport whereas most schools and fans would be happy to just regularly make the NCAA tournament

Therefore, the NC State job is a very tough one. Of course as a coach I'd rather be at NC State vs. Wichita State, but I'd need a lot of money to choose NC State over Memphis, Minnesota or...the ultimate example, Arizona State.

[Kfanarmy]

The problem with many of you fans is you see things in an ACC centric fashion. Yes when Norm Sloan was there the ACC was the best basketball in the country BUT there was no Big East and no ESPN and limited early entry into the NBA.

Too me the biggest change has been the hype of the big east. I do think they play good basketball, but like everyone else they aren't dominant off their home floors. Aside from the sheer number of teams, I don't think they would rightfully have more teams in the tourney than most conferences.

The ACC has had 5 champions since 2000, SEC 2, Big East 2, Big Ten 1, Big 12 1...seems to me competing in the ACC is at least as likely to prep a player for a national championship than any other league. Perhaps the issue has more to do with salesmanship than anything. UM isn't, at least IMHO, a good place to go, but they do allright.

[Slackerb]

You claim the points are "straighforward" and thus you must be correct?


The points seem quite straightforward:

- NC State fans expect (justifiably as per Featherston's article) the program to be on par with Duke and UNC

Not true. NC State fans expect to have a .500 record against the ACC for starters, then worry about championships and beating rivals later.

- However, recruits today do not recognze that brand equity, so the tradition and expectations are more of a burden than a boon

Not True. As state before, NC State has had no problems over the last 10-15 years pulling in good talent, and the tradition, although old, definitely helps. Trying to resurrect a program (along with the playing time that accompanies it) is hardly a burden.

- Duke and UNC are the pinnacle of the sport whereas most schools and fans would be happy to just regularly make the NCAA tournament

True. However, I contend that State fans would be happy to make the NCAA tournament, but don't want to be a bubble team every year and lose in the first weekend. Do you not think that other fans around the nation would not clamor for something better than State has had over the past 5 years?

Therefore, the NC State job is a very tough one. Of course as a coach I'd rather be at NC State vs. Wichita State, but I'd need a lot of money to choose NC State over Memphis, Minnesota or...the ultimate example, Arizona State.

Not true. The NC State job is a tough one, but no tougher than many other jobs. Is it tougher than Arizona State? Herb seems to be performing much worse now than when at NC State....

[ice-9]

I did say "seem." :rolleyes:

I have no response to your points -- think all the views on this topic have been stated already.