Was there a problem with the Crazies tonight? [Archive]

View Full Version : Was there a problem with the Crazies tonight?

cameroncrazy3104

02-09-2011, 11:56 PM

On TV they took time out of the game to address a problem that was going on in the stands. They never followed up on it, was someone ejected?

dukelilsis

02-10-2011, 12:02 AM

On Raycom, Gminski said that someone in the stands had a laser pointer.

TruBlu

02-10-2011, 12:02 AM

On Raycom, an announcer said someone in the crowd had a laser pointer...I think they were escorted from CIS. (just saw dukelilsis beat me to this info by seconds)

Lord Ash

02-10-2011, 12:06 AM

Yes, there was a problem....

THEY WERE SO INSANELY LOUD I COULD BARELY HEAR THE ANNOUNCERS!!

Great job tonight for the most part, the place was ROCKING in the second half!

jdk

02-10-2011, 12:20 AM

On Raycom, Gminski said that someone in the stands had a laser pointer.

Happened Trajan Langdon's senior night against Clemson too. Coach K stopped the game, and told the guy to leave.

jv001

02-10-2011, 12:23 AM

Yes, there was a problem....

THEY WERE SO INSANELY LOUD I COULD BARELY HEAR THE ANNOUNCERS!!

Great job tonight for the most part, the place was ROCKING in the second half!

Yes and I loved it. Even if it was G-Man doing the game. I thought Bob Harris said on the radio feed that someone threw a cell phone onto the court. Go Duke!

uh_no

02-10-2011, 12:27 AM

Yes, there was a problem....

THEY WERE SO INSANELY LOUD I COULD BARELY HEAR THE ANNOUNCERS!!

Great job tonight for the most part, the place was ROCKING in the second half!

by far the loudest its been in my 4 years...and it stayed loud so long

DU82

02-10-2011, 12:27 AM

Yes, there was a problem....

THEY WERE SO INSANELY LOUD I COULD BARELY HEAR THE ANNOUNCERS!!

Great job tonight for the most part, the place was ROCKING in the second half!

I would add that the upstairs was up and cheering much of the second half (not continuously, but I thought we were keeping up as well as our knees and backs and tired voices could!)

I also noted that the silly yellow jacketed people were the only ones to rush the court after the game.

TampaDukie

02-10-2011, 12:40 AM

Yes, there was a problem....

THEY WERE SO INSANELY LOUD I COULD BARELY HEAR THE ANNOUNCERS!!

Great job tonight for the most part, the place was ROCKING in the second half!

Heh, I was going to say the same thing. I knew the crowd was crazy loud when I couldn't even hear Dickie V.

LouisianaDukeFan

02-10-2011, 12:51 AM

Yes, there was a problem....

THEY WERE SO INSANELY LOUD I COULD BARELY HEAR THE ANNOUNCERS!!

Great job tonight for the most part, the place was ROCKING in the second half!

Watching on ESPN, I literally could not hear the whistle quite a few times. I actually started to yell at the TV that a foul had not been called...when it had. Made me wish I could be there! (BTW, I live in Louisiana and amazingly grew up in a "Duke" househould thanks to my Dad who has always been a Dukie at heart.) :D

-bdbd

02-10-2011, 12:58 AM

I would add that the upstairs was up and cheering much of the second half (not continuously, but I thought we were keeping up as well as our knees and backs and tired voices could!)
I also noted that the silly yellow jacketed people were the only ones to rush the court after the game.

Re. this opponent... They are worthy of rushing the court. Heck, next week they won't even be ranked.

:p

Dukeface88

02-10-2011, 01:25 AM

devildeac

02-10-2011, 01:30 AM

Greg_Newton

02-10-2011, 01:45 AM

For any of the historians out there: what's the record for volume in Cameron? I ask because I have a friend who does AV work for Duke Athletics, and he posted a picture showing tonight's peak as 121.3 db

Edit: added picture

That's freaking amazing... louder than a jet engine taking off or standing in front of a speaker at an amplified concert, and just past the point where the sensation of hearing starts turning into pain.

Sounds like previously highest official recording at Cameron was 116: http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Cameron_Indoor_Stadium

Dev11

02-10-2011, 01:57 AM

throatybeard

02-10-2011, 02:09 AM

I've got to think the singular outburst against GT in 2002 has to be up there. Only because it was so pointed.

dukelilsis

02-10-2011, 08:25 AM

At one point there was also mention of debris on the court but they didn't have a stopage of play. According to the announcer (Tim Brando? I try to forget his name since he grates on my nerves), Ol' Roy removed the debris while the ball was at the other end of the court. I figured Roy must have dropped the travel pillow that he brought along in case he needed to take a nap like he did on his recruiting trip.

Cell-R

02-10-2011, 08:33 AM

Hahaha at one point while Roy was gesticulating wildly he popped the ref right in the face with the back of his hand :D

blazindw

02-10-2011, 08:48 AM

I've got to think the singular outburst against GT in 2002 has to be up there. Only because it was so pointed.

Still my favorite moment in Cameron. Ever. I couldn't hear right for days after that game.

killerleft

02-10-2011, 09:04 AM

Watching on ESPN, I literally could not hear the whistle quite a few times. I actually started to yell at the TV that a foul had not been called...when it had. Made me wish I could be there! (BTW, I live in Louisiana and amazingly grew up in a "Duke" househould thanks to my Dad who has always been a Dukie at heart.) :D

I wish I had been there myself:D, but from past Duke-UNC game experiences I am absolutely sure that you would have missed hearing a whole bunch of whistles:cool:.

aimo

02-10-2011, 09:17 AM

A student standing a few rows behind me had a vulgar sign that the campus police confiscated. It was pretty funny, but not appropriate to post here. I guess you can PM me if you want to know what it said.

That's what the stoppage in play was for, not a laser pointer, as far as I could tell.

We were sitting in the seats behind that sign, but we could never tell what the problem was. I think it was a laser, b/c the refs were the ones who got the attention of the stadium officials (who then got the police) and they were pointing to that corner. I doubt that a ref would ask to have a sign removed.

CameronBornAndBred

02-10-2011, 09:27 AM

It's too bad some idiot picked such a great game to get himself kicked out on. But if he can't realize that being in Cameron for the unc game (or any game for that matter) is an amazing privelege that most people would give a tooth for, then he should have been kicked out. What a moron. I'm assuming if he was with the crazies, then he is a student. Sometimes it stuns me that such smart kids can do such stupid things. (I.E. leaving your brother in the portapotty)

Edit..I of course don't know if this was a Crazie in the bleachers, that's just what I'm guessing from other's statements. I really hope it wasn't.

Andre Buckner Fan

02-10-2011, 09:32 AM

What a moron. I'm assuming if he was with the crazies, then he is a student. Sometimes it stuns me that such smart kids can do such stupid things.

Despite what Dickie V may say, Duke students are not all going to take over the world and (at least while I was there) we're still kids growing up.

Agreed, this student was a moron. But of COURSE smart kids do stupid things! I think smart kids may do MORE stupid things. (At least I did while I was at Duke. Maybe I'm just not a smart kid. :) )

Dev11

02-10-2011, 09:40 AM

We were sitting in the seats behind that sign, but we could never tell what the problem was. I think it was a laser, b/c the refs were the ones who got the attention of the stadium officials (who then got the police) and they were pointing to that corner. I doubt that a ref would ask to have a sign removed.

All I know is, in that long lag time, the only thing the stadium employees came down from the student section with was a sign. The refs do have the power to remove any student or make them stop doing anything, I think.

Also, I don't think the kid was removed from the game, he just had his poster taken away.

CameronBornAndBred

02-10-2011, 09:54 AM

All I know is, in that long lag time, the only thing the stadium employees came down from the student section with was a sign. The refs do have the power to remove any student or make them stop doing anything, I think.

Also, I don't think the kid was removed from the game, he just had his poster taken away.
I would hope a sign wouldn't get anyone kicked out, but I know a laser pointer will.
From those that were there, anyone remember any of the really good signs they can share?

94duke

02-10-2011, 11:01 AM

I've got to think the singular outburst against GT in 2002 has to be up there. Only because it was so pointed.

I was there, and I would have to agree with you. For a singular outburst, it was the loudest I have heard Cameron.
Wasn't that the game that saw the birth of the "Our House" chant?

Cell-R

02-10-2011, 11:06 AM

A lot of the good signs can be found here:

http://dukeblueplanet.smugmug.com/2010-11/Crazies/Duke-vs-UNC-Pre-Game/15778914_upAeM#1183326067_6ykJP

GO DUKE!

Exiled_Devil

02-10-2011, 11:48 AM

swood1000

02-10-2011, 01:00 PM

For any of the historians out there: what's the record for volume in Cameron? I ask because I have a friend who does AV work for Duke Athletics, and he posted a picture showing tonight's peak as 121.3 db

Edit: added picture

Here's another one: http://www.gcaudio.com/resources/howtos/loudness.html. Compared to 121.3dB, a loud rock concert is 115dB. OSHA Daily Permissible Noise Level Exposure to this level is .25 hr. Pain begins at 125dB, the level of the pneumatic riveter at 4 ft.

swood1000

02-10-2011, 01:18 PM

There was an ESPN Insider article that found Cameron to be the second loudest arena behind Allen Fieldhouse, Kansas. http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/preview2010/insider/news/story?id=5761254

Mozyb

02-10-2011, 01:30 PM

CameronBornAndBred

02-10-2011, 01:37 PM

As someone standing 3 rows in front of the sign and personally getting yelled at by a security guard I can say 100% it was a sign that they were after. The stoppage was an attempt to remove the sign. No one was kicked out because of this incident, but the sign was surrendered after a small protest.
That makes me feel much better that it was due to someone's (inappriate) creativity instead of someone's stupidity with a laser pointer. Thanks for the clarification.

DU82

02-10-2011, 01:47 PM

I would hope a sign wouldn't get anyone kicked out, but I know a laser pointer will.
From those that were there, anyone remember any of the really good signs they can share?

The student removed from the game had a laser pointer. (This from an usher in that corner.) The sign was taken, but nobody kicked out for that. Also two grad students removed because they were too drunk and doing inappropriate things.

At some point in the first half, something was on the middle of the court (the N&O said it was a cell phone.) Roy started to go out onto the court to get it, but Henson kicked it to the sideline. I have to imagine if it was a cell phone thrown on the court, Roy would have (appropriately) made a bigger deal of it, and an announcement made. So I figured it was an elbow pad, or something that came loose.

CameronBornAndBred

02-10-2011, 01:48 PM

The student removed from the game had a laser pointer. (This from an usher in that corner.) The sign was taken, but nobody kicked out for that. Also two grad students removed because they were too drunk and doing inappropriate things.

At some point in the first half, something was on the middle of the court (the N&O said it was a cell phone.) Roy started to go out onto the court to get it, but Henson kicked it to the sideline. I have to imagine if it was a cell phone thrown on the court, Roy would have (appropriately) made a bigger deal of it, and an announcement made. So I figured it was an elbow pad, or something that came loose.
Now I'm totally confused..so there were two separate instances?

Biscuit King

02-10-2011, 02:11 PM

Now I really want to know what was on that sign. Can someone give me a hint?

nyr484

02-10-2011, 03:21 PM

Now I really want to know what was on that sign. Can someone give me a hint?

It may have been inappropriate for the game, but this is the internet. Can't someone just say what the sign said?

orrnot

02-10-2011, 03:52 PM

At some point in the first half, something was on the middle of the court (the N&O said it was a cell phone.) Roy started to go out onto the court to get it, but Henson kicked it to the sideline. I have to imagine if it was a cell phone thrown on the court, Roy would have (appropriately) made a bigger deal of it, and an announcement made. So I figured it was an elbow pad, or something that came loose.

It was a fan's cellphone. As you might imagine, it was lost by accident.

devildeac

02-10-2011, 04:49 PM

LouisianaDukeFan

02-12-2011, 06:47 PM

There was an ESPN Insider article that found Cameron to be the second loudest arena behind Allen Fieldhouse, Kansas. http://insider.espn.go.com/ncb/preview2010/insider/news/story?id=5761254

I don't have Insider access, but the intro says the following:
"To calculate the maximum decibel level (direct sound plus reverb) at each center court, PSU's team perused construction data provided by the schools and contractors, then assumed the following to create their models: 1) a capacity crowd of yelling spectators; 2) student fans yelling twice as loudly as others; 3) fan bodies absorbing sound equally at all venues."

So (unless a different formula is stated further on in the article) this is based on a model, and not on reality... ;)

Son of Jarhead

02-13-2011, 01:08 AM

...(of the smart phone/i-phone variety) & it looked like it flew out of someone's hand while protesting a non-call (Henson travel?). It came from behind the scorer's table a few rows & almost right at midcourt or a few seats towards the Duke bench. As someone already stated, Roy started out to get it, but Henson was the last to get up court & he knocked it out in front of the scorer's table. I was surprised Roy didn't make any noise about it, but I guess, since they were on a run at that time, that he may have wanted to avoid interupting their flow. I never did see anyone pick it up, so I don't know if it slid under the table (or if that is even possible) or if I just missed it being picked up at halftime. I wonder if the owner got it back with out problems.

On the sound level, I thought at the time that this was one of the loudest I'd heard in CIS, but I'm not sure it was the absolute loudest. I can't remember the game, but I recall once experiencing real pain. This time I did not. Maybe I'm just getting old or have been numbed by a few decades of CIS. Anyway, great game & the crowd was wonderful in the second half. I really felt as though I was helping the team make that comeback. No better feeling, doubly so for it being carolina.

swood1000

02-13-2011, 03:17 PM

I don't have Insider access, but the intro says the following:
"To calculate the maximum decibel level (direct sound plus reverb) at each center court, PSU's team perused construction data provided by the schools and contractors, then assumed the following to create their models: 1) a capacity crowd of yelling spectators; 2) student fans yelling twice as loudly as others; 3) fan bodies absorbing sound equally at all venues."

So (unless a different formula is stated further on in the article) this is based on a model, and not on reality... ;)

I am mindful of the prohibition against divulging information found on premium sites. However, my understanding is that this relates primarily to "hot news" or current interviews and analysis. Furthermore, this story was published in the November 15 issue of ESPN the Magazine. Consequently its results can be reported just like those of any other story from a magazine that one can read down at the library.

The goal was to calculate the "maximum decibel level (direct sound plus reverb) at each center court." The calculations were done by members of Penn State's graduate acoustics program. Unfortunately they report none of their data and very little of their methodology. You can read a little bit about it here: Penn State article (http://live.psu.edu/story/49841). They tried to calculate the "potential" of each arena or "how conducive the arena is to high noise" and not whose fans were louder. The calculations were done based on building sizes, building materials, and seating configuration. They did not actually visit the various arenas. This by itself is not fatal since we can all imagine situations where we could reach valid conclusions without visiting the site. For example, if there are two identical arenas except that one has twice as many seats as the other you would not insist on visiting the sites before concluding which one is louder. The problem comes in when the arenas are not identical and when other important factors are excluded. The greater the differences and the more the results are based on estimates, the larger the chance of error.

The obvious question is why not just go to each arena and measure the sound level? I can guess the reasons. (a) It would have been much more expensive for ESPN to pay sound technicians to go around the country to ten different arenas. They would have had to install and leave expensive equipment that would have to record and store sound levels over a period of time to make sure they got the loudest event. Then they would have had to pay the technicians to go back and retrieve the equipment. (b) ESPN was under a "tight deadline" and needed a story. (c) The goal was to determine the "potential" of the arena, not the loudest fans, and if they actually measured the sound level it would be hard to separate the two. Do the results simply show that during the test period arena A just didn't have an event as exciting as the one that arena B had? Is arena A's team having a bad year? (d) The laws of physics in this area are known and allow us to make fairly accurate calculations if we have critical variables.

The study assumed a capacity crowd with everyone cheering and it assumed that the sound coming from student seats is twice as great as the sound coming from other seats.

In favor of the findings, it's not hard to believe that Allen would be louder than Cameron. The buildings appear to be constructed the same way, with flat ceilings low to the ground and plenty of hard surfaces to reflect sound.

Allen Fieldhouse
1873

Cameron Indoor Stadium
1874

However, Cameron's capacity is 57% of Allen's (9,314 vs. 16,300). They both have their student sections courtside but Allen's student section is 4,000 vs. 1,500 for Cameron, and Cameron's students make up a much lower proportion of total capacity (16.1% vs. 24.5%). Furthermore, the article says that Allen is filled with aluminum bleachers, so the stomping must be an earful.

Let's get to the smoke and mirrors.

One of the critical assumptions was that student seats generate twice as much noise. Why not half again as much? My take is that the results can be controlled by manipulating this figure, but again, we have no data.

They stress that the rankings "aren't final" and that they are based "only on potential." The Penn State article cited above said:

"Like it says in the article, the rankings only show the potential of an arena." So they didn't find that Allen is actually louder or even that it is theoretically louder but only that it is "potentially" louder. Lots of softness here.

The Penn State article interviewed one of the researchers, Micah Shepherd

Shepherd said the model doesn't take into account some things that happen during games. "We didn't account for people stomping up and down, other noisemakers, things like that."Actually, given Allen's aluminum bleachers (if they are, in fact, aluminum), the inclusion of a "stomping factor" would make their loudness score even higher, but this shows an example of a substantial factor being excluded, and hence the unreliability of the findings. In is curious, however, that the ESPN article in a sidebar lists stomping of feet as one way to "Pump Up The Volume." They say "It's no coincidence that at least part of the student section in half of our top 10 gyms root on just such retractable seating." Later they say "The Phog [Allen] is filled with aluminum bleachers that are made for stomping." Kind of makes it seem like this was one of the factors going into the calculation until one remembers the statement in the Penn State article. It would almost lead one to believe that the writers at ESPN had only a lukewarm commitment to the facts, if such a possibility were not so preposterous.

Shepherd said "I guess one surprising thing was the top four were all pretty close in terms of levels." (The top four were Allen, Cameron, Rupp Arena in Kentucky, and UNM Arena in New Mexico.) OK, well as when conducting scientific polls, the greater the amount of estimation that is necessary the greater the chance of error, and if the results fall within the margin of error the findings are not statistically significant. Given the roughness of these calculations it seems quite likely that "pretty close" would fall within the margin of error.

Conclusion

ESPN needed a quick article and they got one. But it's like the computer programmer says to the person hiring him: you can have it (a) quickly, (b) at high quality, (c) at a low price. Pick any two. ESPN went with (a) and (c), which is fine. Lives are not in the balance here. But let's also not give these results more credence than the researchers themselves claim for them ("potentially", "pretty close", "not final", "didn't account for"). A person arguing in favor of Cameron being the loudest arena need not disagree with the findings of this article. Given the assumptions that were used, the roughness of the calculations and the amount of information that was not considered, a finding of "pretty close" does not have much impact and is not one that needs to be quibbled over. The findings are as accurate as the assertion that student seats make 2.0 times as much noise as other seats. If reliability it to be had, however, there's no alternative to the sound meter in this situation.

throatybeard

02-13-2011, 03:49 PM

I was there, and I would have to agree with you. For a singular outburst, it was the loudest I have heard Cameron.
Wasn't that the game that saw the birth of the "Our House" chant?

I'm not certain, but I think "Our House" started at the [1999-2000 season] feat of Horvathian strength against DePaul.

uh_no

02-13-2011, 04:29 PM

They both have their student sections courtside but Allen's student section is 4,000 vs. 1,500 for Cameron, and Cameron's students make up a much lower proportion of total capacity (16.1% vs. 24.5%).

Just a correction: duke's undergraduate section officially fits 1200, while for a UNC type game, they can often squeeze about 1500-1600 in. Furthermore, there are about 850 ticketed grad students, plus another 100 or more getting in off the walkup line. This puts a better estimate of the number of students in cameron at 2500. This comes to 27%, in fact larger proportionally than the student section at allen.

throatybeard

02-13-2011, 09:09 PM

uh_no

02-13-2011, 09:14 PM

I think the only way to estimate the lower level capacity is to ask the fire Marshall. We had radically different crowds in 1996, 1998 and 1999.

care to elaborate? I wasn't around them so I'm just curious what you mean

SCMatt33

02-13-2011, 09:18 PM

Did anyone factor in that Cameron got a little quieter this year compared to other arenas because of all the extra banners absorbing sound???

swood1000

02-14-2011, 10:21 AM

Just a correction: duke's undergraduate section officially fits 1200, while for a UNC type game, they can often squeeze about 1500-1600 in. Furthermore, there are about 850 ticketed grad students, plus another 100 or more getting in off the walkup line. This puts a better estimate of the number of students in cameron at 2500. This comes to 27%, in fact larger proportionally than the student section at allen.

This points to one of the big problems with the study: the lack of information about methodology. How did they arrive at the number of students? If the ticketed grad students and walkup line were included in the Allen student total then it was an error not to include them for Cameron. Otherwise not. But either way the approach they used excluded or estimated far too many important factors. It is hard to take someone seriously who says "Sound A is louder than sound B, but neither sound was heard or directly measured by our researchers."

swood1000

02-14-2011, 10:32 AM

Did anyone factor in that Cameron got a little quieter this year compared to other arenas because of all the extra banners absorbing sound???

Here's to hoping that the sound level at Cameron after this season is reduced one increment relative to Allen.

uh_no

02-14-2011, 12:03 PM

Here's to hoping that the sound level at Cameron after this season is reduced one increment relative to Allen.

Nah, the banners are plastic, so probably don't absorb very much sound