Building the case for Clemson

[Klemnop]

Before I get started I want to take full responsibility for the implosion of the remainder of Clemson's season that will be caused as a result of this thread. I know the inevitable end result of my actions...and yet I can't help myself.

That said, where - FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY - is the mention of Clemson in the NCAAT discussion? Seriously, what the hell?

loran16's ACC Efficiency Rankings really got me thinking about this - along with (my perceived) slights by every local/national media outlet.

Starting with ACC Efficiency: Clemson is 3rd overall without qualifier. CLEARLY 3rd overall with non-Wake factor. CLEARLY #1 when looking at home court performance..and havinvg played 5 of 9 thus far in the schedule on the road. No disrespect to loran16...but you'd think those results would have merited at least some head-scratching within the thread? But, like just about eveyone else, Clemson's actual results seemed to be dismissed in favor of the perception that they're not meaningful.

How about Pomeroy? Pomeroy sees Clemson as the 4th best team in the ACC (#30) sandwiched between Maryland's 21 and VaTech's 32. FSU - everyone's trendy pick last week for 2nd place contender is #44...and has an 18 point loss to Clemson on their resume. Pomeroy projects Clemson to finish 10-6 - and one of the losses is essentially a coinflip at Littlejohn vs. UNC. Yet even Pomeroy can't bring himself to give Clemson the benefit of the doubt, forecasting a 9-7 finish in spite of the individual game projections.

RPI shows Clemson (depending on whose RPI you use) anywhere from 60-70. OK, OK. Guilty. Weak non-conference schedule without anything remotely resembling a signature victory. But, dadgummit, is RPI the ONLY measure we're going to use in this evaluation? (I'll be back to this thought a bit later...)

Lunardi's most recent Bracketology from this afternoon includes the following "Last Four In":
MoState, WASU, Baylor, Richmond

MoState?!?! Checks in as Pomeroy #80. One win over a Pomeroy Top 100 (Witchita State.) Losses to FOUR teams in the Pomery +100. FOUR! Why are we impressed? Seriously? Because RPI has them at 48? because we're obligetd to take mid-major teams now just as an arbitrary measure?

WASU? Pomeroy #41. Good home W vs. #13 UW. Good Neutral court W vs. #50 Baylor. #68 RPI. Project to finish 10-8 in 5th rated PAC10.

Baylor? Pomeroy #50. RPI #78. Project to finish 8-8, 19-11. ONE W over a Pomeroy Top 50 team (@ aTm last Saturday in OT.)

Richmond? Pomeroy #53. RPI #75. Awesome W against Purdue on a neutral court. Not a single other W vs. a Pomeroy Top 50 team. BAD losses to #84 Bucknell and #127(!) Rhode Island at home. Loss to GaTech on a NEUTRAL court (Clemson swept Tech with two double digit victories.)

BC, by the way, is firmly in the field in the forecast. BC?!?!?! Pomeroy #75. RPI #43. Projects to 8-8, 18-12. (8-8 vs. Clemson's 9-7/10-6.?!?!?!) BAD home losses to Harvard, Yale and Rhode Island (why isn't Rhode Island on the bubble?) One very good road W @Maryland. Neutral court W over aTm.

Then there's Clemson. Pomeroy #30. RPI #72. Worst losses are @ arch rival South Carolina (Pomeroy #106) and @UVa (#127). ONE W over a Pomeroy Top 50 team (vs. FSU.) Road Ws @College of Charleston (Pomeroy 79) and GaTech (Pomeroy 81.) Neutal W over Seton Hall (Pomeroy 64.) Not that impressive, right? Well, actually it seems pretty damn competitive with the resumes of the other "bubble" teams doesn't it? Doesn't it? Or is it just me? Shouldn't Clemson at least be in the conversation?

Or how about this: Clemson has zero double digit losses. Four of their seven losses are by 5 points or less. Three are by 2 or less. (If you're wondering they have only one "close" Win, OT, neutral court, vs. Seton Hall...otherwise they are winning comfortably.)

Or how about this: Clemson took its exams immediately following the 3rd loss in a 3 game losing streak (vs. Michigan, @SC, @FSU.) Leading up to that game Demontez Stitt was hobbled and waiting to have his knee scoped during the exam break. After the exam break - and with a fully healthy Stitt - Clemson is 11-3 with all three losses on the road, two of them by TWO points (@UMd and @UVa) and the 3rd @UNC. All three games were within TWO points within the last two minutes of the game and Clemson actually had possession of the ball with a chance to win as time expired in 2 of the 3.

Not coincidentally the semester exam break gave Brad Brownell a chance to focus some much needed energy on installing some offensive principles.

So, riddle me this: Why no mention of Clemson in the conversation? I'm not arguing that they should be firmly in the field or anything. But they've got to at least be in the conversation. Unfortunately I fear that in recent years the Selection Committee has been more and more shaped by the conversation of the pundits and the pressure to insert or exclude teams based national perception.

Winning cures all ills. RPI improves. Conference standing becomes more clear. head-to-head match-ups help define who you are. Finishing strong counts for something. But I just don't get why Clemson isn't being talked about when these other teams are getting prime time.

For those of you that like to wager, go haead and make massive bets on BC for Tuesday night. I've applied the jinx. It's out there. Oh well.

Klem

[Duke: A Dynasty]

0_o uhhh... wow..

I see your point an I am in agreement. And now the losses will start stacking up for them.. good job

[devildeac]

Before I get started I want to take full responsibility for the implosion of the remainder of Clemson's season that will be caused as a result of this thread. I know the inevitable end result of my actions...and yet I can't help myself.

That said, where - FOR THE LOVE OF EVERYTHING HOLY - is the mention of Clemson in the NCAAT discussion? Seriously, what the hell?

loran16's ACC Efficiency Rankings really got me thinking about this - along with (my perceived) slights by every local/national media outlet.

Starting with ACC Efficiency: Clemson is 3rd overall without qualifier. CLEARLY 3rd overall with non-Wake factor. CLEARLY #1 when looking at home court performance..and havinvg played 5 of 9 thus far in the schedule on the road. No disrespect to loran16...but you'd think those results would have merited at least some head-scratching within the thread? But, like just about eveyone else, Clemson's actual results seemed to be dismissed in favor of the perception that they're not meaningful.

How about Pomeroy? Pomeroy sees Clemson as the 4th best team in the ACC (#30) sandwiched between Maryland's 21 and VaTech's 32. FSU - everyone's trendy pick last week for 2nd place contender is #44...and has an 18 point loss to Clemson on their resume. Pomeroy projects Clemson to finish 10-6 - and one of the losses is essentially a coinflip at Littlejohn vs. UNC. Yet even Pomeroy can't bring himself to give Clemson the benefit of the doubt, forecasting a 9-7 finish in spite of the individual game projections.

RPI shows Clemson (depending on whose RPI you use) anywhere from 60-70. OK, OK. Guilty. Weak non-conference schedule without anything remotely resembling a signature victory. But, dadgummit, is RPI the ONLY measure we're going to use in this evaluation? (I'll be back to this thought a bit later...)

Lunardi's most recent Bracketology from this afternoon includes the following "Last Four In":
MoState, WASU, Baylor, Richmond

MoState?!?! Checks in as Pomeroy #80. One win over a Pomeroy Top 100 (Witchita State.) Losses to FOUR teams in the Pomery +100. FOUR! Why are we impressed? Seriously? Because RPI has them at 48? because we're obligetd to take mid-major teams now just as an arbitrary measure?

WASU? Pomeroy #41. Good home W vs. #13 UW. Good Neutral court W vs. #50 Baylor. #68 RPI. Project to finish 10-8 in 5th rated PAC10.

Baylor? Pomeroy #50. RPI #78. Project to finish 8-8, 19-11. ONE W over a Pomeroy Top 50 team (@ aTm last Saturday in OT.)

Richmond? Pomeroy #53. RPI #75. Awesome W against Purdue on a neutral court. Not a single other W vs. a Pomeroy Top 50 team. BAD losses to #84 Bucknell and #127(!) Rhode Island at home. Loss to GaTech on a NEUTRAL court (Clemson swept Tech with two double digit victories.)

BC, by the way, is firmly in the field in the forecast. BC?!?!?! Pomeroy #75. RPI #43. Projects to 8-8, 18-12. (8-8 vs. Clemson's 9-7/10-6.?!?!?!) BAD home losses to Harvard, Yale and Rhode Island (why isn't Rhode Island on the bubble?) One very good road W @Maryland. Neutral court W over aTm.

Then there's Clemson. Pomeroy #30. RPI #72. Worst losses are @ arch rival South Carolina (Pomeroy #106) and @UVa (#127). ONE W over a Pomeroy Top 50 team (vs. FSU.) Road Ws @College of Charleston (Pomeroy 79) and GaTech (Pomeroy 81.) Neutal W over Seton Hall (Pomeroy 64.) Not that impressive, right? Well, actually it seems pretty damn competitive with the resumes of the other "bubble" teams doesn't it? Doesn't it? Or is it just me? Shouldn't Clemson at least be in the conversation?

Or how about this: Clemson has zero double digit losses. Four of their seven losses are by 5 points or less. Three are by 2 or less. (If you're wondering they have only one "close" Win, OT, neutral court, vs. Seton Hall...otherwise they are winning comfortably.)

Or how about this: Clemson took its exams immediately following the 3rd loss in a 3 game losing streak (vs. Michigan, @SC, @FSU.) Leading up to that game Demontez Stitt was hobbled and waiting to have his knee scoped during the exam break. After the exam break - and with a fully healthy Stitt - Clemson is 11-3 with all three losses on the road, two of them by TWO points (@UMd and @UVa) and the 3rd @UNC. All three games were within TWO points within the last two minutes of the game and Clemson actually had possession of the ball with a chance to win as time expired in 2 of the 3.

Not coincidentally the semester exam break gave Brad Brownell a chance to focus some much needed energy on installing some offensive principles.

So, riddle me this: Why no mention of Clemson in the conversation? I'm not arguing that they should be firmly in the field or anything. But they've got to at least be in the conversation. Unfortunately I fear that in recent years the Selection Committee has been more and more shaped by the conversation of the pundits and the pressure to insert or exclude teams based national perception.

Winning cures all ills. RPI improves. Conference standing becomes more clear. head-to-head match-ups help define who you are. Finishing strong counts for something. But I just don't get why Clemson isn't being talked about when these other teams are getting prime time.

For those of you that like to wager, go haead and make massive bets on BC for Tuesday night. I've applied the jinx. It's out there. Oh well.

Klem

Excellent analysis, Klem. Or should it be Clem? After all, doesn't the cheer start with: C-L-E-M...:rolleyes:;)

Now, start winning in chappaheeya...

[rasputin]

Excellent analysis, Klem. Or should it be Clem? After all, doesn't the cheer start with: C-L-E-M...:rolleyes:;)

Now, start winning in chappaheeya...

K (pause) L (pause) E (pause) M (pause) N (pause) O (pause, pause, pause) P!

[loran16]

Clemson has been amazing at home. The problem is that the committee and the rankings and the bracketologists all consider of key importance one's road wins.

Boston College for example, has a road win at Maryland to add to its neutral court win over Texas A&M.

Clemson meanwhile has 2 road wins: GT and C of C. Neither of those are good wins. And these guys hold it against a team like Clemson....until you prove you can win on the road against some form of opposition, you're not considered a real contender.

The efficiency statistics and pomeroy (based upon the same thing) agree with you that Clemson is better than people think. But there is a bias toward road wins...and right now that's biting Clemson.

EDIT: FWIW, I'm pretty sure week 2 when Clemson was on the top I mentioned that they were better than people thought, and I've been saying that in the other ACC games thread for a while. So, I'm with you here.

[hurleyfor3]

So, riddle me this: Why no mention of Clemson in the conversation? I'm not arguing that they should be firmly in the field or anything. But they've got to at least be in the conversation. Unfortunately I fear that in recent years the Selection Committee has been more and more shaped by the conversation of the pundits and the pressure to insert or exclude teams based national perception.

Winning cures all ills. RPI improves. Conference standing becomes more clear. head-to-head match-ups help define who you are. Finishing strong counts for something. But I just don't get why Clemson isn't being talked about when these other teams are getting prime time.

I think Clemson has to build the case for Clemson.

I believe the ACC will definitely get four bids, probably get five, and very possibly get six. A 10-6 record should do the trick, especially if the wins come against other ACC teams that finish near the top. But between unc and State/Wake no one has differentiated itself. So go out there and win some games!

[gumbomoop]

Clemson can do themselves [not to mention Duke] a lot of good this week. They have BC in Littlejohn on Tuesday, then an extra day of rest before their revenge game against UNC, also Littlejohn, Sat aft. Should they win [well, yes, they should] tomorrow eve, and should the Heels lose [ditto] Wed eve, then the Tigers have an opportunity to get a big win on Sat.

[gofurman]

Clemson can do themselves [not to mention Duke] a lot of good this week. They have BC in Littlejohn on Tuesday, then an extra day of rest before their revenge game against UNC, also Littlejohn, Sat aft. Should they win [well, yes, they should] tomorrow eve, and should the Heels lose [ditto] Wed eve, then the Tigers have an opportunity to get a big win on Sat.

Klem - I was thinking the same thing tonight (far less detail).. I looked at ACC standings and overall and wondered how come CU is gettin' no love?

Beat BC and UNC and I can just 'about guarantee you will be in the talks and deserve it - that would be 7-4 ACC and 18-7 overall. No one can talk about an ACC team like that and not include them as a highly likely tourney team. 18-7 with a win over UNC would put you in the real discussion.

Please, please beat the tarheels

fwiw, clemson is far far better at home than on the road. Yet they show they are a good team bc on the road they lose close (2 pts to Maryland and UVA) and they kill people at home. The worthless average of those home and away means clemson is probably 5-10 pts better than most of the acc on a neutral court. Also, Clemson is learning a new system w Brownell and so that should be accounted for at least some...

And per that system, they seem to be improving - getting their first road win the other day

[tieguy]

The problem, Klem, is that you're basing most of your argument on a ratings system that is based on sane, modern analysis. And quite demonstrably the committee looks mostly at RPI. So unless you power through and get some "signature wins" you won't be in the discussion. You've changed my mind, but you're not going to change the NCAA's mind until the NCAA wises up to modern statistical analysis, and that isn't happening this year. (We could start a betting pool: which happens first, the NCAA ditches or modernizes the RPI; or Clemson wins in CH? My money is probably on the NCAA, but not by much...)

~tieguy

[gw67]

Sorry,

I scewed up and posted the following in another thread.

Originally Posted by gw67
I came away from yesterday's game against the Terps impressed by the Clemson team and their new coach, Brownell. They hung with Maryland to the very end although the Terps were playing much better than they did against VT. Brownell had his team well prepared and he seemed to make several good moves to keep his team from being blown out in the first half as the Terps were uncharacteristically hot from behind the three-point line. He then kept them close late in the second half and would have won the game if the Terps, again uncharacteristically, hadn't made some foul shots at the end. There are a lot of things to like about Clemson besides their coach. Their three person big man rotation of Grant, Booker and Jennings may be the best in the ACC, IMO. They attack the boards, play defense and each can step out and hit a jumper. Their backcourt of Stitt and Young is underrated. Both are good outside shooters, passers and ballhandlers, and Stitt can take it to the basket. Smith didn't play yesterday and Narcisse stepped in. Smith is a nice wing player who helps in a number of areas and is an above average defensive player. It appears that the Tigers are a little weak off the bench in the backcourt so Stitt and Young play a bunch of minutes.

One thing that I liked seeing in yesterday's game, as compared to the game against VT, was the good sportsmanship demonstrated by both teams. On at least four occasions, there were strong fouls or physical play underneath the basket and in all instances the youngsters involved helped one another off the floor and either shook hands or gave a pat to the back or shoulder. Purnell installed good fundamentals and a good attitude with his teams and Brownell seems to be carrying on with this approach.

Klem,

Following the Maryland game earlier this season, I gave the Tigers some love (see above). This year's team is not your Dad's Clemson team. They shoot well from the field and foul line, share the ball and their big men are effective but a little less physical than in the past (I still recall when Chris Hobbs got upset, picked up Tahj Holden and tried to plant him in the floor with a move the pro wrestlers would be proud of.) IMO, they are a better all around team than BC, which is sort of a one-trick pony, and I expect them to win tonight at home.

gw67

[gumbomoop]

It's true Clemson gets no respect so far. Eamonn Brennan doesn't include them among his ACC bubble-teams. [Brennan also has Duke at 7-1....]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bubblewatch

Also true, as a couple of us have noted in this thread, that that can all change with 2 home wins this week: tonight v. BC, Sat v. UNC.

Close to make or break week for Tigers? Must beat BC. Badly need - for lots of reasons - to beat Heels.

[silverbax]

Win on the road, and then start complaining about the tournament. The reality is that by mid February, the majority of Clemson fans are already looking forward to football season.

[Klemnop]

Win on the road, and then start complaining about the tournament. The reality is that by mid February, the majority of Clemson fans are already looking forward to football season.

I'm not complaining about the Tournament Selection. Clemson's resume will be what it is come the second weekend in March.

I'm more interested to know why nobody in the regional/national media is talking about Clemson in the way-too-early Bubble discussion. As noted in the original post, it's not as if the current resumes of the teams being discussed is significantly better/different than Clemson's. And in a couple of cases the projections for how those teams will finish is significantly worse.

Clemson 65 @ GaTech 56 from THREE days ago says, "Hi". Which only serves to prove my point. The conversation seems to be entirely predicated on perception with little interest in reality.

[loran16]

I'm not complaining about the Tournament Selection. Clemson's resume will be what it is come the second weekend in March.

I'm more interested to know why nobody in the regional/national media is talking about Clemson in the way-too-early Bubble discussion. As noted in the original post, it's not as if the current resumes of the teams being discussed is significantly better/different than Clemson's. And in a couple of cases the projections for how those teams will finish is significantly worse.

Clemson 65 @ GaTech 56 from THREE days ago says, "Hi". Which only serves to prove my point. The conversation seems to be entirely predicated on perception with little interest in reality.

It was good that Clemson got a road win. But despite Carolina's loss, GT is NOT a good road win.

[Klemnop]

It's true Clemson gets no respect so far. Eamonn Brennan doesn't include them among his ACC bubble-teams. [Brennan also has Duke at 7-1....]

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/bubblewatch

Also true, as a couple of us have noted in this thread, that that can all change with 2 home wins this week: tonight v. BC, Sat v. UNC.

Close to make or break week for Tigers? Must beat BC. Badly need - for lots of reasons - to beat Heels.

Whew! Clemson runs out to a large 2nd half lead and then lets BC slide back in before holding them at arm's length to close it out. Not an impressive win, IMO, but an important win.

That should effectively end any of this nonsense in ESPN Bracketology about BC being in the field and Clemson not even being in the discussion.

Huge, massive game vs. UNC on Saturday for Clemson. Last realistic shot for a signature win that would get everyone's attention. I know it's not what Duke fans want but I'll be pulling for 3OT in tomorrow night's game. And I wouldn't mind a UNC win for the chance at a massive let-down/trap game scenario to follow.

[devildeac]

Whew! Clemson runs out to a large 2nd half lead and then lets BC slide back in before holding them at arm's length to close it out. Not an impressive win, IMO, but an important win.

That should effectively end any of this nonsense in ESPN Bracketology about BC being in the field and Clemson not even being in the discussion.

Huge, massive game vs. UNC on Saturday for Clemson. Last realistic shot for a signature win that would get everyone's attention. I know it's not what Duke fans want but I'll be pulling for 3OT in tomorrow night's game. And I wouldn't mind a UNC win for the chance at a massive let-down/trap game scenario to follow.

"And I wouldn't mind a unc win..."

Sorry, Klem, ya just lost my share of the bail money with a statement like that.:p

(not that I'll ever have anything to worry about in my lifetime anyway:rolleyes:)

[gumbomoop]

Huge, massive game vs. UNC on Saturday for Clemson. Last realistic shot for a signature win that would get everyone's attention. I know it's not what Duke fans want but I'll be pulling for 3OT in tomorrow night's game. And I wouldn't mind a UNC win for the chance at a massive let-down/trap game scenario to follow.

I don't think Clemson needs UNC to go 3 OTs. The Tigers already have the extra day's rest, and the Heels will be in an intense game even without the OTs.

Seems better for Clemson if Duke deflates UNC's momentum, which would sow some doubts to replace the Heels' current [over?]confidence.

But no matter what happens tonight, Tigers have their chance to win Sat aft.

[77devil]

Huge, massive game vs. UNC on Saturday for Clemson. Last realistic shot for a signature win that would get everyone's attention. I know it's not what Duke fans want but I'll be pulling for 3OT in tomorrow night's game. And I wouldn't mind a UNC win for the chance at a massive let-down/trap game scenario to follow.

Beat UNC on Saturday and Clemson should enter the tournament conversation.

[gumbomoop]

Although not quite a must win, Clemson does very badly need to whip the Heels this aft. Win today, and Clemson could certainly get to 10-6. If they lose, however, they could end up 8-8 and miss out.

I'll be interested to see whether Booker, Jennings, and even Narcisse are inspired enough by the home crowd to help the admirable Jerai Grant, who's played well enough to merit consideration for 2d team All-ACC.

Clemson has the extra day of rest and prep.

[devildeac]

Game on, Tigers. Are you ready to play, win and put yourselves on the ncaa ticket or roll over and slink away into the middle of the conference again?

[Klemnop]

Game on, Tigers. Are you ready to play, win and put yourselves on the ncaa ticket or roll over and slink away into the middle of the conference again?

I fear we have proven to be quite the slinkers over our past.

A long time ago (on Monday) this thread seemed worthwhile. Today it seems pointless. The Tigers will win today and clearly put themselves in the NCAAT conversation -or- they'll lose and prove they didn't really merit being in the conversation in the first place.

[Olympic Fan]

I fear we have proven to be quite the slinkers over our past.

A long time ago (on Monday) this thread seemed worthwhile. Today it seems pointless. The Tigers will win today and clearly put themselves in the NCAAT conversation -or- they'll lose and prove they didn't really merit being in the conversation in the first place.

Klemnop, I think you nailed it.

Win today and the Tigers are a viable NCAA bubble team. Still not in the field, but at 17-7, 6-4 ACC and 11 wins in the last 14 games, they HAVE to be part of the conversation, despite a low RPI.

Lose today and the Tigers will be facing almost impossible odds -- 16-8, 5-5 ACC with a best win maybe Seton Hall on a neutral court, maybe Florida State at home won't get it done. It would take a miraculous finish (including a win at Duke) to get Clemson back in the mix.

So let's revisit this thread a few minutes after 4 p.m. Saturday.

[devildeac]

I fear we have proven to be quite the slinkers over our past.

A long time ago (on Monday) this thread seemed worthwhile. Today it seems pointless. The Tigers will win today and clearly put themselves in the NCAAT conversation -or- they'll lose and prove they didn't really merit being in the conversation in the first place.

BTW, go Tigers!

[OldPhiKap]

Looking ugly right now. Refs ain't helping.

[jipops]

I stand by my position despite our recent victory over the heels and I'm not happy about it. But UNC is the best team in the ACC right now. Their defense is just absolutely devastating. It does help that Clemson has no shooters. Not only does Clemson only have 4 points in the first 10 minutes, but 0 points in their half court offense.

The heels just have more talent than everybody else, tremendous balance, and they are cohesive. The big plus for them is they don't turn the ball over nearly as often anymore. They are no less a final four contender than we are, possibly more.

[devildeac]

Why did f$u show up with clemson unis on today? Oh, my, 9 points in about 13 minutes. At home!

[loran16]

I stand by my position despite our recent victory over the heels and I'm not happy about it. But UNC is the best team in the ACC right now. Their defense is just absolutely devastating. It does help that Clemson has no shooters. Not only does Clemson only have 4 points in the first 10 minutes, but 0 points in their half court offense.

The heels just have more talent than everybody else, tremendous balance, and they are cohesive. The big plus for them is they don't turn the ball over nearly as often anymore. They are no less a final four contender than we are, possibly more.

Ummm yeah no. No they don't have more talent (Henson+Zeller+Barnes+Marshall and a load of dung vs Nolan-Kyle-Mason-Seth-Dre-Ryan), nor more balance nor are they cohesive.

They're better. They are however, massively overhyped right now.
-------

Clemson is shooting 26% and only down 6. Still quite in this thing.

[jipops]

They're better. They are however, massively overhyped right now.
-------

Clemson is shooting 26% and only down 6. Still quite in this thing.

Not sure being ranked 21 is over-hyped. Clemson playing some good D themselves in this one.

[Duvall]

The heels just have more talent than everybody else, tremendous balance, and they are cohesive. The big plus for them is they don't turn the ball over nearly as often anymore. They are no less a final four contender than we are, possibly more.

I don't know if I would use the word cohesive to describe either team after that half of basketball.

[Duvall]

Clemson is shooting 26% and only down 6. Still quite in this thing.

8-0 run for Clemson to start the half. Roy must have re-used his halftime speech from Wednesday.

[gofurman]

I wouldn't pick on CLemson, they have been one of the ACC teams to do better or help the SOS of our conference more than NC State over the past few years despite far less bball traditn... way better than Wake this year.

My point is Clemson - despite a football school - is trying for a 4th NCAA appearance in row. That is all the ACC can ask from them. State and Wake etc are making our conference look bad

[jipops]

I don't know if I would use the word cohesive to describe either team after that half of basketball.

cohesive defenses:)

[loran16]

FTR, while they're AT Clemson, they're calling a foul on every little tap Clemson makes.

[loran16]

Looking like Carolina will prevail because Clemson couldn't hit open shots at the end (and I'm talking open 3s).

The refs haven't helped either

[Duvall]

Looking like Carolina will prevail because Clemson couldn't hit open shots at the end (and I'm talking open 3s).


Or the beginning, or any part of the game except for a short stretch in the middle.

[loran16]

Or the beginning, or any part of the game except for a short stretch in the middle.

Hey whole game counts. It was 51-51. 2 minutes later, with UNC having the ball with 55 seconds left, it was 55-51.

Terrible.

UNC's D is very very good. UNC's O still is not great. They're like Duke at the beginning of the year...show occasional flashes but are completely inconsistent. If Duke on Wednesday ignores the 3 point threat and just concentrates inside, the game is never close.

[juise]

The Barnes spin and dunk was very impressive. Clemson couldn't answer and that was pretty much the game.

[PSurprise]

Or the beginning, or any part of the game except for a short stretch in the middle.

Their free throws

[jipops]

Hey whole game counts. It was 51-51. 2 minutes later, with UNC having the ball with 55 seconds left, it was 55-51.

Terrible.

UNC's D is very very good. UNC's O still is not great. They're like Duke at the beginning of the year...show occasional flashes but are completely inconsistent. If Duke on Wednesday ignores the 3 point threat and just concentrates inside, the game is never close.

I think you are discounting Clemson's defense which is actually quite good at home. I Give them a lot of credit here. This is a big win for the Heels. They are still in good position to finish no worse than tied for 1st in the ACC.

Duke is still very inconsistent on defense if you want to talk about inconsistency.

[Jderf]

The Barnes spin and dunk was very impressive. Clemson couldn't answer and that was pretty much the game.

"Impressive" seems like an understatement. He exploded out of nowhere. It almost made me think, if I squinted my eyes for a second, that he was some kind of super-star mega-hyped recruit or something.

[loran16]

I think you are discounting Clemson's defense which is actually quite good at home. I Give them a lot of credit here. This is a big win for the Heels. They are still in good position to finish no worse than tied for 1st in the ACC.

Duke is still very inconsistent on defense if you want to talk about inconsistency.

Hey Look Statistics!

Clemson's Defense at home is good. Of course, compared to other home ACC teams, it's #5 in conference D at home, prior to this game, behind Duke, UNC, FSU, and GT. Clemson's D at home in fact is worse than Duke's D overall, including road games.

Clemson has the league's best OFFENSE at home. Not Defense.

[loran16]

I think you are discounting Clemson's defense which is actually quite good at home. I Give them a lot of credit here. This is a big win for the Heels. They are still in good position to finish no worse than tied for 1st in the ACC.

Duke is still very inconsistent on defense if you want to talk about inconsistency.

Also, NO WORST than tied for 1st? Wow. You really have given up on Duke have you. That's unbelievable.

[juise]

"Impressive" seems like an understatement.

That's why I included the "very" as well. ;)

[dukelifer]

Also, NO WORST than tied for 1st? Wow. You really have given up on Duke have you. That's unbelievable.

UNC should win out the month of February given their schedule and the opponents. Fla State at Fla State is a tough game for them and then ending out with Duke. Duke's schedule is tougher with Miami and Va Tech on the road. So tomorrow's game is huge for Duke to maintain their position.

[jdj4duke]

Gosh but I hope the UNC'ers are happy about the officiating today. They shot 17 more free throws than Clemson (big difference even allowing for end of the game fouls. Good thing since their both their FG and 3 pt %'s stunk it up. I think UNC was about 14% from 3 pt. land. Clemson's shooting was pretty lame also.

For long stretches, esp. in the first half, it looked like neither team could handle the ball any worse if they were wearing catcher's mitts and it wasn't all due to defense. Lots of suspect drives and passes in traffic. Pretty sloppy game overall.

[Troublemaker]

UNC should win out the month of February given their schedule and the opponents. Fla State at Fla State is a tough game for them and then ending out with Duke. Duke's schedule is tougher with Miami and Va Tech on the road. So tomorrow's game is huge for Duke to maintain their position.

Upsets do happen. Using Pomeroy's odds, UNC actually only has a 53% chance to come away unscathed from that February four-game stretch of WF-BC-NCSU-MD. Each individual game looks like a win but taken all together... I think UNC's offense is still shaky enough to randomly poop the bed on any given day. It almost happened today, actually, and I'll go ahead and predict that they lose one of those four games.

I agree with you that Duke's schedule looks tougher than UNC's down the stretch, so even if UNC slips, it'll be tough for Duke to take advantage since we'll be susceptible to the same fate.

[ns7]

I think you are discounting Clemson's defense which is actually quite good at home. I Give them a lot of credit here. This is a big win for the Heels. They are still in good position to finish no worse than tied for 1st in the ACC.

Duke is still very inconsistent on defense if you want to talk about inconsistency.

UNC has been very lucky not to have lost more than two ACC games so far. They are 5-1 in games decided by 10 points or less and now 3-0 in games decided by one possession (today, Miami, and Virginia Tech).

Contrast that with Duke who is 2-1 in games decided by 10 points or less (Maryland, loss to FSU, and UNC) and no games decided by one possession.

Great teams pound inferior opposition. Right now UNC is eking by. My guess is that UNC drops at least one more game before the rematch, especially in the 3 game stretch @NCSU, Maryland, and @FSU.

[devildeac]

Game on, Tigers. Are you ready to play, win and put yourselves on the ncaa ticket or roll over and slink away into the middle of the conference again?


I fear we have proven to be quite the slinkers over our past.

A long time ago (on Monday) this thread seemed worthwhile. Today it seems pointless. The Tigers will win today and clearly put themselves in the NCAAT conversation -or- they'll lose and prove they didn't really merit being in the conversation in the first place.


Klemnop, I think you nailed it.

Win today and the Tigers are a viable NCAA bubble team. Still not in the field, but at 17-7, 6-4 ACC and 11 wins in the last 14 games, they HAVE to be part of the conversation, despite a low RPI.

Lose today and the Tigers will be facing almost impossible odds -- 16-8, 5-5 ACC with a best win maybe Seton Hall on a neutral court, maybe Florida State at home won't get it done. It would take a miraculous finish (including a win at Duke) to get Clemson back in the mix.

So let's revisit this thread a few minutes after 4 p.m. Saturday.

Slink, slink, slink.
Slither, slither, slither.

Sad.

Of course, shooting 15 (or was it 17?) less FT than your opponents doesn't help one's cause either:mad:.

[jipops]

Also, NO WORST than tied for 1st? Wow. You really have given up on Duke have you. That's unbelievable.

I haven't given up on Duke at all. It isn't a knock on us. I just think the Heels are playing that well. There isn't a negative here other than admitting that the heels are just really, really good.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

Todays game reminded me of the Clemson/UNC game earlier this year. Clemson was right there with eight minutes to go, but their lack of offense killed them down the stretch. Nobody stepped up and took control for them.

I felt bad for Jerai Grant. He is a senior having a solid year and the Heels abused and embarrassed him.

[77devil]

Right now UNC is eking by. My guess is that UNC drops at least one more game before the rematch, especially in the 3 game stretch @NCSU, Maryland, and @FSU.

Chris Singleton is out for the season. The table is setting up nicely for the Heels until March 5 when our guys take care of business in Chapel Hell.

[TigerDevil]

Todays game reminded me of the Clemson/UNC game earlier this year. Clemson was right there with eight minutes to go, but their lack of offense killed them down the stretch. Nobody stepped up and took control for them.

I felt bad for Jerai Grant. He is a senior having a solid year and the Heels abused and embarrassed him.

I was there yesterday and I agree with your sentiments all around. I felt bad for Jerai, but all in all the thing that really bothered me is that Milton Jennings didn't stand up and (without intent to injure, obviously) hack the snot out of Black Falcon as he went up for his highlight dunk. That just made Clemson look stupid, to let him spin through the lane and throw it down like that.

[kong123]

Gosh but I hope the UNC'ers are happy about the officiating today. They shot 17 more free throws than Clemson (big difference even allowing for end of the game fouls. Good thing since their both their FG and 3 pt %'s stunk it up. I think UNC was about 14% from 3 pt. land. Clemson's shooting was pretty lame also.

For long stretches, esp. in the first half, it looked like neither team could handle the ball any worse if they were wearing catcher's mitts and it wasn't all due to defense. Lots of suspect drives and passes in traffic. Pretty sloppy game overall.

when you shoot twice as many three's as your opponent, you will not go to the line as often.

[Klemnop]

C-L-E-M-S-O-N...T-I-G-E-R-S. Fight Tigers, Fight Tigers, Fight Like HELL!!!!

[Indoor66]

C-L-E-M-S-O-N...T-I-G-E-R-S. Fight Tigers, Fight Tigers, Fight Like HELL!!!!

Some days EVERYBODY is a Tigers fan! GTHC

[devildeac]

C-L-E-M-S-O-N...T-I-G-E-R-S. Fight Tigers, Fight Tigers, Fight Like HELL!!!!

Not yet. Beat unc tomorrow and then call us;). I will consider that almost as good as a W in chappaheeya. Not quite, but almost.:cool:

[throatybeard]

We need Clemson to IPTAY Carolina.

[weezie]

Not yet. Beat unc tomorrow and then call us;). I will consider that almost as good as a W in chappaheeya. Not quite, but almost.:cool:

Oh no, in my book, they win and it is definitely as good.
Come on deac, encourage the tigs!
Get that tiger blood boiling!