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View Full Version : Is St. John's Our Rival?



Biscuit King
02-02-2011, 10:46 PM
This question must be asked, now that the Red Storm has won 2 of its last 9 games against Duke, while Maryland has won just 1 of 9.

anon
02-02-2011, 10:57 PM
Ha!

We've had a couple pretty memorable games against them, too: the no-call at half-court (at Cameron?) sticks out in my mind.

Duvall
02-02-2011, 11:55 PM
Is our Terrapins learning? (http://voices.washingtonpost.com/local-breaking-news/crime-and-public-safety/calm----and-unhappy----after-u.html)


As the final whistle blew on Wednesday night's game at the Comcast Center, the U-Md. students in the bars along Route 1 were in no mood to celebrate. There was no revelry, no flooding of the streets. Only dejected fans wondering whether this game is still even a rivalry.

"We feel like they're our rivals, but I don't think this game is more important to them than U-Va.," said Fernando Saltiel, 21, a senior studying economics. "I mean, it's pretty maddening that Maryland's not in it every year."

"To call it a rivalry, you need to have some sort of consistent competitiveness," added Ryan McCullin, 22, a senior English major. "We have the potential to be a top 10 program every year, and it just doesn't happen."

OZZIE4DUKE
02-03-2011, 12:05 AM
Rivalries really do have to be two sided for them to be ongoing. Maryland is not our rival. They are a team we play twice, maybe three times, and occasionally four times a year in highly competitive games. OK, sometimes they are not so competitive and we beat the crap out of them! And sometimes we rip out their hearts in the last 53.5 seconds! :cool:

-bdbd
02-03-2011, 12:12 AM
This question must be asked, now that the Red Storm has won 2 of its last 9 games against Duke, while Maryland has won just 1 of 9.

Really good question.

I'll ask a few of my Terp-fan friends up here in DC Thursday and get back to you...

;)



P.S. Very funny that, in the Post article tonight that was linked above re. rioting, Terp fans are, ah, well, Terping ...regarding the POLICE being the ones who caused the riots. Well, as long as you have SOMEONE to blame for something (other than accepting responsibility yourself)... That's the important thing!

:rolleyes:

cakerace
02-03-2011, 04:52 AM
In defining Duke’s rivals, I ask myself “At this point in time, would you rather beat this team, or one with a higher RPI?” If the answer is “yes, this team” then that team is a Duke rival. Example: a two-win season with both wins coming against unc is definitely better than a .500 season with no wins against the hated tarheels. Therefore, Carolina is definitely a rival.

Using this criterion, then, it has been several years since St. Johns was in the Duke rival discussion, going back to the time we moved comfortably ahead of them in all-time wins…

This takes me back to the rival-related question “Which teams would you most like to beat?” After careful consideration, my current list would be:

Positions 1 through 10 - Carolina
11 – Kentucky and 12 – Kansas (both for their position ahead of Duke on the all-time wins list)
13 – UCLA (an irrational hold-over from those two wonderful victories my freshman year)

JohnGalt
02-03-2011, 05:12 AM
Rivalries really do have to be two sided for them to be ongoing. Maryland is not our rival. They are a team we play twice, maybe three times, and occasionally four times a year in highly competitive games. OK, sometimes they are not so competitive and we beat the crap out of them! And sometimes we rip out their hearts in the last 53.5 seconds! :cool:

I'm not sure I agree with that statement, Oz.

The Palmetto Bowl (for those living in SC) is about as heated as it gets and Clemson pretty much owns it. Sure, the Gamecocks have won the last two years (first time consecutively in 40(!!) years) but Clemson's won 17 or 18 of the last 25 and leads the overall series by about 30 wins. It really is pretty one-sided, even despite the pomp.

And though I lean to Clemson because of all my family ties, I've greatly enjoyed Carolina winning the last couple years. It's reinvigorating for the rivalry. Because, prior to 2009, Carolina had only enjoyed marginally more success (2-8) than the Terps have had recently against the Devils. :D

Anyway...back on topic. I get a tremendous amount of amusement letting Maryland fans know they aren't our rival, if only to see how much it irks them. Because, secretly, I enjoy the heck out of beating them....not on the level of the TarHeels or UCONN...but probably as much as Kentucky.

SupaDave
02-03-2011, 06:26 AM
I'm not sure I agree with that statement, Oz.

The Palmetto Bowl (for those living in SC) is about as heated as it gets and Clemson pretty much owns it. Sure, the Gamecocks have won the last two years (first time consecutively in 40(!!) years) but Clemson's won 17 or 18 of the last 25 and leads the overall series by about 30 wins. It really is pretty one-sided, even despite the pomp.

And though I lean to Clemson because of all my family ties, I've greatly enjoyed Carolina winning the last couple years. It's reinvigorating for the rivalry. Because, prior to 2009, Carolina had only enjoyed marginally more success (2-8) than the Terps have had recently against the Devils. :D

Anyway...back on topic. I get a tremendous amount of amusement letting Maryland fans know they aren't our rival, if only to see how much it irks them. Because, secretly, I enjoy the heck out of beating them....not on the level of the TarHeels or UCONN...but probably as much as Kentucky.

Same goes for UGA and Georgia Tech football. UGA has dominated the last two decades...

77devil
02-03-2011, 06:45 AM
I'm not sure I agree with that statement, Oz.

The Palmetto Bowl (for those living in SC) is about as heated as it gets and Clemson pretty much owns it. Sure, the Gamecocks have won the last two years (first time consecutively in 40(!!) years) but Clemson's won 17 or 18 of the last 25 and leads the overall series by about 30 wins. It really is pretty one-sided, even despite the pomp.

And though I lean to Clemson because of all my family ties, I've greatly enjoyed Carolina winning the last couple years. It's reinvigorating for the rivalry. Because, prior to 2009, Carolina had only enjoyed marginally more success (2-8) than the Terps have had recently against the Devils. :D

Anyway...back on topic. I get a tremendous amount of amusement letting Maryland fans know they aren't our rival, if only to see how much it irks them. Because, secretly, I enjoy the heck out of beating them....not on the level of the TarHeels or UCONN...but probably as much as Kentucky.


Same goes for UGA and Georgia Tech football. UGA has dominated the last two decades...

Not analogous to the Duke/Maryland rivalry debate IMO. Both are in state rivalries between large public institutions with a significant alumni base intermixed throughout the state that helps perpetuate the rivalry regardless of the relative competitiveness.

JohnGalt
02-03-2011, 06:56 AM
Not analogous to the Duke/Maryland rivalry debate IMO. Both are in state rivalries between large public institutions with a significant alumni base intermixed throughout the state that helps perpetuate the rivalry regardless of the relative competitiveness.

I probably wasn't clear enough wrt the portion of Oz's post I disagreed with (I bolded it, but probably should have just deleted the rest).

I don't think in the least that Clemson/Carolina or UGA/Tech are comparable rivalries to Duke/Maryland. I just think they illustrate how two schools can be fierce rivals without much of an actual rivalry being present, meaning one side pretty much owns the other.

4decadedukie
02-03-2011, 07:43 AM
Rivalries really do have to be two sided for them to be ongoing. Maryland is not our rival. They are a team we play twice, maybe three times, and occasionally four times a year in highly competitive games. OK, sometimes they are not so competitive and we beat the crap out of them! And sometimes we rip out their hearts in the last 53.5 seconds! :cool:

Ozzie is absolutely correct. Playing some competitive games does not a rivalry make.

UrinalCake
02-03-2011, 08:08 AM
I think Florida State has beaten us at least two out of the last nine times. That doesn't really make them our rival though.

Did anyone see the segment at halftime where they asked a bunch of Maryland fans before the game why they hate Duke so much? Their answers were basically:

- I don't know
- I don't really know
- Everybody hates Duke
- I started hating JJ Redick, because he always destroyed us
- I don't know
- Ooh look, a shiny object!

Okay, I just made that last one up. But still, none of the fans seem to have a legitimate reason for WHY they hate Duke.

CameronBlue
02-03-2011, 08:17 AM
I think Florida State has beaten us at least two out of the last nine times. That doesn't really make them our rival though.

Did anyone see the segment at halftime where they asked a bunch of Maryland fans before the game why they hate Duke so much? Their answers were basically:

- I don't know
- I don't really know
- Everybody hates Duke
- I started hating JJ Redick, because he always destroyed us
- I don't know
- Ooh look, a shiny object!

Okay, I just made that last one up. But still, none of the fans seem to have a legitimate reason for WHY they hate Duke.

In a related story, virtually the same answers were given by Egyptian pro-Mubarak protestors when asked why they hate Anderson Cooper so much. It was unclear whether any of them were Maryland grads.

monkey
02-03-2011, 08:31 AM
I think Florida State has beaten us at least two out of the last nine times. That doesn't really make them our rival though.

Did anyone see the segment at halftime where they asked a bunch of Maryland fans before the game why they hate Duke so much? Their answers were basically:

- I don't know
- I don't really know
- Everybody hates Duke
- I started hating JJ Redick, because he always destroyed us
- I don't know
- Ooh look, a shiny object!

Okay, I just made that last one up. But still, none of the fans seem to have a legitimate reason for WHY they hate Duke.

Yeah - I saw that and laughed. I could almost hear that cartoon video saying "Duke sucks" as they showed the clip.

On the other hand ... I will give props to the guy they showed pregame who was dressed up as a golden hued Bender from Futurama. That was awesome.

PADukeMom
02-03-2011, 09:07 AM
One word...NO! We don't play them enough for them to be our rival. Maryland wants to think their our rival but it's a figment of their imigination.

Matches
02-03-2011, 09:34 AM
Anyway...back on topic. I get a tremendous amount of amusement letting Maryland fans know they aren't our rival, if only to see how much it irks them. Because, secretly, I enjoy the heck out of beating them....not on the level of the TarHeels or UCONN...but probably as much as Kentucky.

This. It's tons of fun to mess around with Terp fans' inferiority complex, but though we spend lots of time protesting otherwise, I do think they have become our #2 ACC rival. The game may not mean as much to us as it does to them, but there's no doubt in my mind - I take much more pleasure from beating UMd than, say, FSU or GT.

Really, NCSU or Wake should be our seconday rivals, but NCSU has been awful for 20 years and for whatever reason there's just not much shared animosity with Wake.

Duke is to UMd as UNC is to NCSU. UMd is the rival that we view as being beneath us. And they know it and resent it tremendously.

ScreechTDX1847
02-03-2011, 09:53 AM
No. They are not a rival.

hurleyfor3
02-03-2011, 09:54 AM
I think Florida State has beaten us at least two out of the last nine times. That doesn't really make them our rival though.


I think we are 7-2 in our last nine against VPI as well since they joined the conference. We won our first game against them in 2005, lost the second and I believe we have gone 7-1 since.

Scorp4me
02-03-2011, 10:11 AM
Of course Maryland is our Rival. Didn't you hear Bilas, he said no matter what people say they are our rival before the game. I think it was based on the fact that the fans showed up at 5:20 for the game. Almost 4 hours before the game? Did you know they showed up 4 hours prior to the game? I didn't know they showed up 4 hours prior to the game. But I knew they showed up 4 hours prior to the game after they told me 27 times during the course of the game.

Matches
02-03-2011, 10:18 AM
Of course Maryland is our Rival. Didn't you hear Bilas, he said no matter what people say they are our rival before the game. I think it was based on the fact that the fans showed up at 5:20 for the game. Almost 4 hours before the game? Did you know they showed up 4 hours prior to the game? I didn't know they showed up 4 hours prior to the game. But I knew they showed up 4 hours prior to the game after they told me 27 times during the course of the game.

Well, anything that takes them off the streets for a few hours can only be a good thing.

-jk
02-03-2011, 10:36 AM
Of course Maryland is our Rival. Didn't you hear Bilas, he said no matter what people say they are our rival before the game. I think it was based on the fact that the fans showed up at 5:20 for the game. Almost 4 hours before the game? Did you know they showed up 4 hours prior to the game? I didn't know they showed up 4 hours prior to the game. But I knew they showed up 4 hours prior to the game after they told me 27 times during the course of the game.

That was their devious sportsmanship plan disguised as a pep rally: get them in the building, and sobering up, well before game time. And too sober to riot.

(Was it Lefty who said that Duke students got drunk before games in Cameron? Ozzie, you were there...)

-jk

OZZIE4DUKE
02-03-2011, 11:13 AM
That was their devious sportsmanship plan disguised as a pep rally: get them in the building, and sobering up, well before game time. And too sober to riot.

(Was it Lefty who said that Duke students got drunk before games in Cameron? Ozzie, you were there...)

-jk
We smuggled kegs into football games, but not basketball games... I was too busy with my air horn to notice. Seriously, I'm sure some were, but no one ever passed out that I know of.

4decadedukie
02-03-2011, 11:50 AM
I almost believe that this could – and should – be a standalone thread; nevertheless, I will incorporate it with the current discussion.

What elements are required for two universities to have a true athletic rivalry? Obviously, passionate and unusually ferocious contests (in one or more sports) are necessary, which suggests that over an extended period both schools have the likelihood of defeating the other in very close games.

However, I believe more than extreme athletic competitiveness is mandatory. Specifically, I suggest that A DEEP CULTURAL SIMILARITY IS OBLIGATORY FOR A LEGITIMATE RIVALRY TO EXIST and – much more critically – to endure. The Duke – UNC (CH) circumstances provide an exemplary model of this; our universities are geographically proximate, the communities of students, alumni, faculty, etc. are extensively intermingled, both universities justifiably claim “elite” stature and most-selective admissions standards, and so forth. A comparable cultural (although not geographic) environment is extent with UVa, as well as with several non-ACC universities.

For this reason, it is impossible for me to view Maryland as “Duke’s rival.” Maryland is a large, public university, with a mediocre academic reputation, with rather lenient admissions criteria (several of their degree-granting programs do not even require applicants to take the applicable, national standardized test to be accepted), and with little to distinguish it from the mainstream of “state schools.” While Duke and UMd are both long-term ACC athletic contestants (and while our basketball and lacrosse teams, among others, frequently have very close games) this DOES NOT create a true rivalry, since the universities and their constituencies have so little that is culturally common.

I can certainly understand why the Terrapins would want create the aura of an enduring Duke – Maryland rivalry; they would appreciably gain in “cultural” stature by successfully doing so. However, the facts – admissions selectivity, academic reputation, earnings potential, and so much more – simply do not support this delusion.

Duvall
02-03-2011, 12:10 PM
I almost believe that this could – and should – be a standalone thread; nevertheless, I will incorporate it with the current discussion.

What elements are required for two universities to have a true athletic rivalry? Obviously, passionate and unusually ferocious contests (in one or more sports) are necessary, which suggests that over an extended period both schools have the likelihood of defeating the other in very close games.

However, I believe more than extreme athletic competitiveness is mandatory. Specifically, I suggest that A DEEP CULTURAL SIMILARITY IS OBLIGATORY FOR A LEGITIMATE RIVALRY TO EXIST and – much more critically – to endure.

This is disproven by many other major college rivalries, many of which feature the primary research institution and main land-grant institution within a state. Unless you think Texas-Texas A&M isn't a rivalry, I think the cultural argument has to be discarded.

cbnaylor
02-03-2011, 12:13 PM
The only reason that I can determine why Maryland hates Duke is because we came back and knocked them out from going to the Championship game in 2001.

94duke
02-03-2011, 12:22 PM
The only reason that I can determine why Maryland hates Duke is because we came back and knocked them out from going to the Championship game in 2001.

I think you have to include the 3 games before that.
-Gone in 54 seconds.
-Their win in Cameron/Carlos injury
-ACC Tourney/Nate Badass tip-in

Then they thought that got robbed by the refs in the Nat'l Semifinal.

The entire 2001 season (we played them 4 times!) was the catalyst for all the MD-Duke hate.

-bdbd
02-03-2011, 12:39 PM
That was their devious sportsmanship plan disguised as a pep rally: get them in the building, and sobering up, well before game time. And too sober to riot.

(Was it Lefty who said that Duke students got drunk before games in Cameron? Ozzie, you were there...)

-jk

It was Norm Sloan in the late-70's. Hence the long-standing Crazy cheer, "Have a drink, Norm Sloan, have a drink!! (clap, clap!) (and repeat)


BTW, the DC media coverage is entertaining once again, post-game. The headline of the Sports Section game article reads, "Terrapins can't pick up signature win, falling 80-62 to their rival." In the run-up to the game numerous local media stories constantly referenced the "rivalry game." Silly pandering to the local audience, by going out of their way to use the term 'rival.'

The other humorous thing is that there is only that single, relatively short article on the game (after the MD win last year I recall there were about six articles covering every possible angle...) - and not even a box score - accompanied by a few photos, including a half-page back-of-the Sports section shot showing a well-behaved, happy/cheering MD student section with three blue-clad, stern-faced Dukies in the middle...and MD fans holding up supposedly clever signs pointing to the Duke fans saying "Sucks." The article uses as an example of the "sportsmanship" efforts somewhat failing by mentioning signs in the arena saying "Nerds!"...and greetings of "boos and jeers." Somehow, I imagine there was quite a bit more than that, as usual.

At least there wasn't a riot this time. :rolleyes:

hurleyfor3
02-03-2011, 12:47 PM
BTW, the DC media coverage is entertaining once again, post-game. The headline of the Sports Section game article reads, "Terrapins can't pick up signature win, falling 80-62 to their rival." In the run-up to the game numerous local media stories constantly referenced the "rivalry game." Silly pandering to the local audience, by going out of their way to use the term 'rival.'

Maybe you're being sarcastic; I can't tell. But we are unequivocally their rival.

rsvman
02-03-2011, 12:59 PM
I think you have to include the 3 games before that.
-Gone in 54 seconds.
-Their win in Cameron/Carlos injury
-ACC Tourney/Nate Badass tip-in

Then they thought that got robbed by the refs in the Nat'l Semifinal.

The entire 2001 season (we played them 4 times!) was the catalyst for all the MD-Duke hate.

Don't forget the ACC championship game in, I believe, 2004 (correct me if I'm wrong about the year; I'm not going to look it up) when Duke had a large lead, went to "stall ball" and saw the lead crumble and fold. So Maryland ended up being the ACC champions that year in what was a very painful game for Duke fans.

My point is only that the kind of games that end up making schools hate each other have happened in both directions when it comes to Duke v. Maryland. The other reasons I hate Maryland have nothing to do with basketball per se, but relate to their well documented behavioral problems at and after basketball games.

dukee94
02-03-2011, 01:09 PM
Don't forget the ACC championship game in, I believe, 2004 (correct me if I'm wrong about the year; I'm not going to look it up) when Duke had a large lead, went to "stall ball" and saw the lead crumble and fold. So Maryland ended up being the ACC champions that year in what was a very painful game for Duke fans.

My point is only that the kind of games that end up making schools hate each other have happened in both directions when it comes to Duke v. Maryland. The other reasons I hate Maryland have nothing to do with basketball per se, but relate to their well documented behavioral problems at and after basketball games.

You are correct about the year, 2004: Duke 87, MD 95 in OT. We just couldn't seem to stop Gilchrist. Last time I checked he was playing in Australia.

4decadedukie
02-03-2011, 03:14 PM
This is disproven by many other major college rivalries, many of which feature the primary research institution and main land-grant institution within a state. Unless you think Texas-Texas A&M isn't a rivalry, I think the cultural argument has to be discarded.

I believe you may have misread my earlier post (#23). Certainly, UT (Austin) and A&M are true rivals, exactly BECAUSE -- and this was the precise crux of my thesis in posting #23 -- THEY ARE SO CULTURALLY SIMILAR. Both large are public Texas research universities, both have rather similar student and alumni communities (my UT alum daughter definitely would NOT like this comparison), and both alumni/booster constituencies "cohabitate" in Texas' major cities and towns, in businesses, in churches, in profession firms, and so forth. In fact, your example of UT and A&M: (a) proves my aforementioned thesis and (b) indicates way I believe Maryland and Duke are not -- and cannot be -- rivals.

thenameisbond
02-03-2011, 03:39 PM
Fairyland is a one-way rivalry.

I will admit to a certain grudging satisfaction on seeing their beligerent fans silenced by their team's defeat.

cato
02-03-2011, 04:57 PM
Let's recap:

- We have a thread ostensibly about St. John's, that is entirely dedicated to disavowing any rivalry with Maryland.

- Maryland is discussed more than any other team on this board except Duke and UNC. I can't even think of a close 4th.

- The Maryland fanbase gets more attention than any other fanbase, UNC included.

Maryland may not be a rival anymore (although I think they certainly were from the late-90s to the mid-00s), but they certainly are an obsession around here.

Kdogg
02-03-2011, 07:48 PM
Same goes for UGA and Georgia Tech football. UGA has dominated the last two decades...


I'm not sure I agree with that statement, Oz.

The Palmetto Bowl (for those living in SC) is about as heated as it gets and Clemson pretty much owns it. Sure, the Gamecocks have won the last two years (first time consecutively in 40(!!) years) but Clemson's won 17 or 18 of the last 25 and leads the overall series by about 30 wins. It really is pretty one-sided, even despite the pomp.

And though I lean to Clemson because of all my family ties, I've greatly enjoyed Carolina winning the last couple years. It's reinvigorating for the rivalry. Because, prior to 2009, Carolina had only enjoyed marginally more success (2-8) than the Terps have had recently against the Devils. :D


I think these examples help define what a true rivalry is. It's not about wins and losses; it's about the fan bases. The Clemson/USC rivalry has been lopsided for a generation but both fan bases care about it immensely. It can divide families, friends and co-workers. Both sides care about it evenly and with passion. With Duke/UM -- not so much. It's a one sided love (hate?) affair. Someone will bring up the fact that we are talking about it so it must be important to Duke. Well these threads are more reactionary toward UM fans, the DC media and their shared delusions. Do I can if be beat UM? Yes, but not more than if we beat Clemson, or GT, or any of the new comers.