Don't bash the Plumlees

[noyac]

I am sick of hearing how Zoubs and Lance were so much better than the Plumlees.

Let me clear the air first:

Zoubs and Lance will always be some of my favorite players due to the effort I saw them exert everytime they were on the floor and I am not trying to disrespect them in any way.

I have read many threads this year and have seen quite a few people saying that the Plumlees are not half as good as Lance and Zoub were last year. This made me upset because I felt it was not based on fact and more of an eyeball test. Let's take a simple look at the side by side statistics.

MIN PPG RPG BPG SPG
Zoubek 2009-2010 18.7 5.6 7.7 .8 .7
Mi. Plumlee 2010-2011 17.1 5.3 4.6 .4 .9

Thomas 2009-2010 25.3 4.8 4.9 .2 .6
Ma. Plumlee 2010-2011 24.3 6.7 8.8 1.8 .9

I grouped them by similar playing time and it looks to me that they have pretty similar numbers based on these averages when you look at them as combined stats like below

MIN PPG RPG BPG SPG
Zoubek and Thomas 2009-1020 44 10.4 12.6 1.0 1.3
Plumlees 2010-2011 41.4 12.0 13.4 2.2 1.8

As a pair it appears they are very similar and the Plumlees have the slight edge (especially when you consider they are not seniors yet). I know there are going to be responses citing statistics that I overlooked but the point of this was to tell all of the people that put so much blame on the Plumlees shoulders about how bad they are at finishing and how if we had Zoubs and Lance we would be better off...would we?

[stillcrazie]

I don't think anyone would deny the fact that Mason are Miles are probably ahead of where Zoubek and LT were at the same point in their career. I think people are just frustrated because Z and LT ended their careers in fine fashion and were great senior leaders, whereas the Plumlees still need to develop their natural abilities.

[airowe]

I agree with the sentiment behind your post, but tempo has to be factored in when looking at stats from two different teams.

We're playing a much faster pace this year compared to last.

[A-Tex Devil]

Agree with stillcrazie that it's a developmental thing that Z didn't get until his senior year and Lance til his junior, but neither of the . . . . Plumli . . . . are near the on the ball low post interior defenders that Z and Lance were last year. Not even close right now.

But as we've all seen, everyone has room for improvement.

[johnb]

I read most of these threads and haven't come across anyone saying the Plumlee brothers aren't half as good as Thomas and Zoubek.

I have read that the brothers have had flashes of brilliance but haven't yet been able to string together weeks in which they've played up to their potentials in all aspects of the game. I'm not sure what that is supposed to mean, however, since it implies that we're more frustrated than they are. If anyone wants the two of them to succeed, I'd assume the two of them would be near the top of the list.

I might have complaints if they seemed to be selfish or lazy, but both seem disciplined, hard working, and focused. If anything, I see them very much like Thomas and Zoubek in that they are excellent college players who play on a top 5 team with guards/wings who are among the best in the country. This can make them look mediocre, but I'd guess that any team in the country would LOVE to have those guys playing for them, and that at almost all of them, they'd both be starting.

It reminds me of the UVa coach who said, "at Duke, Taymon Domzalski can't get in the game. With us, we'd erect him a statue."

They're good, dog gone it, and getting better. Would you really want to root for a team in which the Plumlees and Kelly were operating on all cylinders, Kyrie were uninjured, and we won all our games by 40? Ok, don't answer that, but in the meantime, enjoy the ride.

[CDu]

Airowe makes a good point in his response. In addition to the problem of only looking at count stats, this analysis doesn't consider the impact on defense. That's a pretty relevant consideration in my opinion.

[CharlestonDevil]

I haven't seen this sentiment on the DBR Boards but yes, there is a definite prevailing thought that we should be seeing more out of the Plumlees. And while they can be frustrating at times (like "Come on man!! You're built for playing awesome, just do it!") I often remind myself that it took Zoubs 3 1/2 years for things to click.

The Plumlees/Plumli will get there. I know this because I have ultimate faith in Coach K.

[sagegrouse]

I am sick of hearing how Zoubs and Lance were so much better than the Plumlees.

Let me clear the air first:

Zoubs and Lance will always be some of my favorite players due to the effort I saw them exert everytime they were on the floor and I am not trying to disrespect them in any way.

I have read many threads this year and have seen quite a few people saying that the Plumlees are not half as good as Lance and Zoub were last year. This made me upset because I felt it was not based on fact and more of an eyeball test. Let's take a simple look at the side by side statistics.


MIN PPG RPG BPG SPG
Zoubek 2009-2010 18.7 5.6 7.7 .8 .7
Mi. Plumlee 2010-2011 17.1 5.3 4.6 .4 .9

Thomas 2009-2010 25.3 4.8 4.9 .2 .6
Ma. Plumlee 2010-2011 24.3 6.7 8.8 1.8 .9

I grouped them by similar playing time and it looks to me that they have pretty similar numbers based on these averages when you look at them as combined stats like below


MIN PPG RPG BPG SPG
Zoubek and Thomas 2009-1020 44 10.4 12.6 1.0 1.3
Plumlees 2010-2011 41.4 12.0 13.4 2.2 1.8

As a pair it appears they are very similar and the Plumlees have the slight edge (especially when you consider they are not seniors yet). I know there are going to be responses citing statistics that I overlooked but the point of this was to tell all of the people that put so much blame on the Plumlees shoulders about how bad they are at finishing and how if we had Zoubs and Lance we would be better off...would we?

I tried to improve the table, which makes some good points.

sagegrouse

[Kfanarmy]

I am sick of hearing how Zoubs and Lance were so much better than the Plumlees. ...As a pair it appears they are very similar and the Plumlees have the slight edge (especially when you consider they are not seniors yet). I know there are going to be responses citing statistics that I overlooked but the point of this was to tell all of the people that put so much blame on the Plumlees shoulders about how bad they are at finishing and how if we had Zoubs and Lance we would be better off...would we?

Unless you only want to talk about offense, your table doesn't make a fair comparison. LT was a defensive specialist. I think you'd more appropriately represent their total contributions by doing an average +/- comparison wherein the effect of the individual being in the game becomes, to me, a bit more obvious over time.

[CDu]

Unless you only want to talk about offense, your table doesn't make a fair comparison. LT was a defensive specialist. I think you'd more appropriately represent their total contributions by doing an average +/- comparison wherein the effect of the individual being in the game becomes, to me, a bit more obvious over time.

I definitely agree with the sentiment here, but +/- also has too many flaws to answer the question. You might want to include it, but there's just so much room for random variation (even over a 40-game sample) that the results aren't reliable.

But I completely agree that just looking at count stats undervalues what Thomas did on the court.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

I definitely credit the plumlees with their great athleticism and ability to rebound in traffic, but personally, I think most people are frustrated with the fact of the number of missed dunks, layups, etc. by the Plumlees, specifically Mason. He normally misses what is normally an easy slam for a 6'11" basketball player with a 3 and a half foot Vertical. They also disappoint me with a lack in the defending area. Time and time again do opposing players get past him with ease and get inside to the paint. But hey, there is definitely room for improvement and I am assured Coach K will work with them, and his amazing basketball IQ.

[noyac]

I definitely agree with the sentiment here, but +/- also has too many flaws to answer the question. You might want to include it, but there's just so much room for random variation (even over a 40-game sample) that the results aren't reliable.

But I completely agree that just looking at count stats undervalues what Thomas did on the court.

I admitted that it was a simple comparison in my post. I simply wanted to show people that the count stats are not that far apart to justify the anger directed at players that are younger.

[CDu]

I admitted that it was a simple comparison in my post. I simply wanted to show people that the count stats are not that far apart to justify the anger directed at players that are younger.

I realize that. And our response is that count stats aren't really a good measure to support your argument. I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point. But using a flawed comparison to support your point is a bad idea.

[UrinalCake]

I think the issue is expectations. We didn't EXPECT Zoubek to score, and anything we got from Thomas was considered a bonus. But we expect the Plumlees (especially Mason) to be go-to scorers. Zoubek and Thomas did what they were required to do, while (some people feel) the Plumlees are not. Also, Zoubek and Thomas are sort of immortalized in our minds for what happened last year, just like Irving is seen as a transcendent force for his play in the first eight games. I think that sort of elevates our memory of them.

Also, your tables do not reflect offensive rebounds and assists - so many of Z's offensive boards led to kickouts and three pointers, which are so huge in terms of impacting the game.

With all that said, I wholeheartedly agree with your point that the Plumlees are doing fine and it is erroneous to claim that Zoubek and Thomas were way better than them.

[ElSid]

Tempo factors in, as Airowe pointed out.

I'd also like to see the comparison of FG%. I get the feeling Lance and Zoubs were more efficient, despite the slightly lower stats.

I'd also like to see opponent's FG%. Our defense was better last year.

Still, I don't think the Plumlees are bad. They have more potential and they have been less consistent. But, they're not seniors. I've found myself defending them more than blaming them.

I remember defending Lance and Zoubs a lot before they became so consistent. Lance was like a baby dear on ice and seemingly unable to stand up for his first three years. He came around. Zoubs had his clear issues with fouling. They both made big strides. The Plumbers take a lot of heat because of their potential. They'll get there.

[UrinalCake]

You know, something else I was thinking... last year Z and Thomas had the Plumlees on the team, pushing them in practice and ready to come in off the bench. So they could really go all out knowing that we had plenty of depth in the post. But this year, the Plumlees don't have that luxury, save for Hairston and, to a lesser extent, Kelly. I think it affects your style of play when you know there's not that depth behind you. Any time Mason comes out, Kyle has to play the 4, which alters our whole makeup. So there's pressure for Mason to stay in the game. Certainly not the only reason for his inconsistency, but nevertheless a factor in why his development might be slowed.

[CDu]

Tempo factors in, as Airowe pointed out.

I'd also like to see the comparison of FG%. I get the feeling Lance and Zoubs were more efficient, despite the slightly lower stats.

I'd also like to see opponent's FG%. Our defense was better last year.

Still, I don't think the Plumlees are bad. They have more potential and they have been less consistent. But, they're not seniors. I've found myself defending them more than blaming them.

I remember defending Lance and Zoubs a lot before they became so consistent. Lance was like a baby dear on ice and seemingly unable to stand up for his first three years. He came around. Zoubs had his clear issues with fouling. They both made big strides. The Plumbers take a lot of heat because of their potential. They'll get there.

I agree on all points, except I'd revise the last part to "Hopefully they'll get there." But very well said.

[miramar]

As in past years, Duke's main problem seems to be with very quick and athletic teams, especially on their court. Under those circumstances we have to be able to go small, but only two guys are stepping up consistently in those games. Points aren't everything, but Smith and Singler accounted for 74.2% of Duke's points against FSU and 66.7% against St. John's. So I don't think our big guys are the problem.

Our remaining away games are Maryland, Miami, UVA, Virginia Tech, and UNC. None of those teams may present the same challenges as FSU and St. John's, but I expect some very tough games.

There are ten more regular season games and Coach K will keep tinkering until he finds a solution.

[Wander]

In summary: our frontcourt has gotten worse at offensive rebounding, worse on position defense, and a little better at shot-blocking (yes, only a little - Mason has to be well on his way to setting the Duke record for goaltending).

The Plumlees aren't going to be as good at offensive rebounding as Z was or as versatile defensively as LT was, and most of us always knew this, but it'd be really useful if they could find a way to make up for this more in other areas.

But, as others have pointed out, LT and Z had more time to learn this stuff, so it's important to keep that in mind.

[mapei]

Zoubs was a 7-foot turnover machine for much of his career, which was seriously frustrating. Lance collected fouls so easily that he was taken out games early. We had a magnificent run towards the end of last year, and those guys were huge parts of it, especially Zoubs. But before that I was nervous every time he touched the ball.

Mason strikes me as a guy who has gotten by for so long on his athletic ability that he's still learning the game. I think Miles is actually underrated, but neither is as strong as Zoubs was or as some of the post players we have to face. We're not talking Shelden Williams and Elton Brand here.

So our big guys end up in mismatches, and to a great extent we live and die on the perimeter. That's just the personality of this team, and how K assembled it.

[jv001]

We did not lose the 2 games because of Mason and Miles. Bad offense and really bad defense cost us the St. Johns game. The biggest difference in the Plumlees vs. Zoubs is the offensive rebounds. We are not going to get that many with this years team. But we have to remember it took Zoubs 4 years to get healthly and to "get it". I think the Plumlees will reach that level of play or even a higher level of play. Go Duke!

[ncexnyc]

The original poster asked this question. "If we had Zoubs and Lance we would be better off...would we?" Please mark me down in the camp that says yes and I'll try to explain why.

It was just a few short years ago that Coach K talked about how young we were as a team. That team was loaded with nothing but underclassmen. Last year's team had the experience of 5 upperclassmen who started. Experience doesn't often show up on the stat sheet when we talk about things like knowing how to hedge on defense and then recovering to where you're supposed to be in the defensive scheme. It doesn't take into account knowing how and when to set a screen. These are all little things which don't translate well onto a stat sheet. Is it the old eyeball test? Yes it is, but sometimes you have to go with what you see.

Lance and Brian were also key cogs to our defense. Lance was our prime defensive stopper, something every Duke team has had. Lance defended just about every position there is and the majority of times last year he did an excellent job. I'm not sure we would call either of the brothers a defensive stopper at this point in time. Brian had issues learning how to hedge and recover, but he got better at it and was a very intimidating presence on our back line last year. His bulk made him very difficult for the opposition to root out from under the basket.

Do Mason and Miles have a huge upside? Yes they do. Were they better suited to playing with Kyrie? Again, yes they most definitely are. But would I trade both players right now for Lance and Brian? Yes absolutely without any hesistation.

Let me also add that we only have two loses. So I still believe this team can challange for the championship. I also don't blame everything on the play of Mason and Miles, we definitely miss Jon's steady production, which we haven't been able to get on a consistent basis from Ryan, Seth, or Andre. The talent is there and there's a lot of time left. It's times like these that make you realize just how special last year really was.

[cptnflash]

Tempo factors in, as Airowe pointed out.

I'd also like to see the comparison of FG%. I get the feeling Lance and Zoubs were more efficient, despite the slightly lower stats.



You are correct, sir, LT and Brian were much more efficient on offense last year than the Plumlees are this year. The best single stat to use is Pomeroy's individual offensive efficiency rating, which takes everything into account (team tempo, player usage, opportunity set, shooting, assists, offensive rebounding, turnovers, etc.). The numbers:

2009 - 2010
Brian Zoubek: 120.4 (Godlike for a player his size)
Lance Thomas: 98.8 (we all know Lance's strength wasn't his offense)

2010 - 2011
Miles Plumlee: 105.8 (individual categories fairly average across the board)
Mason Plumlee: 95.6 (done in by awful free throw shooting and a high turnover rate)

You can see the details for yourself here:
http://kenpom.com/team.php?team=Duke

So two points to summarize:

1) Brian and LT were significantly better last year than the Plumlees are this year BEFORE you even take defense into account. D is much harder to quantify but I don't think there's much argument which way that scale tilts in this case (although Mason is becoming quite a good defensive rebounder). The fact that both Brian and LT were seniors while M&M aren't is true, but also irrelevant. Neither will be a senior this year. For this year's team to reach its full potential, we need them to be better right now, not a year or two from now. There's no other option inside.

2) For those of you who are tired of seeing people express frustration and concern regarding the Plumlees, I'd say get used to it. They are the weakest part of this team by far, and that's likely to be the case until the end of the season. This is a case where the eye test and the stats match perfectly. We need them to get much better, and quickly.

[Newton_14]

I definitely credit the plumlees with their great athleticism and ability to rebound in traffic, but personally, I think most people are frustrated with the fact of the number of missed dunks, layups, etc. by the Plumlees, specifically Mason. He normally misses what is normally an easy slam for a 6'11" basketball player with a 3 and a half foot Vertical. They also disappoint me with a lack in the defending area. Time and time again do opposing players get past him with ease and get inside to the paint. But hey, there is definitely room for improvement and I am assured Coach K will work with them, and his amazing basketball IQ.

But see, this what the OP was talking about. The bolded part of your quote, especially the 2nd sentence is not true.

I will preface this by saying forget yesterday. In the first 6 minutes of the game yesterday, Mason played reallly good defense. Once he went out with his 2nd foul no one played any defense the rest of the day Mason included.

Back to your point. I find it amusing that when our guards get beat off the dribble a gazillion times in a row, that is somehow Mason and/or Miles fault. They get left on an Island and have to step up to cut off the penetration and then the guard dishes to the open big for the layup. Maybe our guards should stay in front of their man a little more often?:D

Over the last month or more Mason has played really good defense, blocking and altering shots, and rebounding like a maniac, yet more often than not folks will say the "Plumlees are getting beat on defense". Miles has not been as consistent as Mason but he has still played good defense more often than not. Go watch the BC game or the last 8 minutes of the Maryland game and watch how well Miles played on defense.

Finally, in a few of the games, the defensive game plan has been to shut down Miami's guards, Maryland's wings, BC's 3 point shooting etc, while sacrificing points from Reggie Johnson and Williams from Maryland. Yet people say "Oh well their big got 20 points so our bigs defense sucked". Not true. Rarely were any of those points off of power post up moves. Most were bunnies due to the pressure we were applying elsewhere and in the case of Maryland, Gary Williams did a good job of putting us in situations where the help defender had too far to go to stop the bunny. That is not Miles or Mason or even Ryan's fault. That is great execution by the opponent. Also, we won those games if that counts for anything.

To sum it up, our team defense is still a work in progress, but guards and wings getting beat off the dribble or late rotating is just as much of an issue as anything else. Maybe it feels better to blame it on Miles and Mason, not sure, but their defense is not nearly as bad as some are making it out to be.

[jv001]

But see, this what the OP was talking about. The bolded part of your quote, especially the 2nd sentence is not true.

I will preface this by saying forget yesterday. In the first 6 minutes of the game yesterday, Mason played reallly good defense. Once he went out with his 2nd foul no one played any defense the rest of the day Mason included.

Back to your point. I find it amusing that when our guards get beat off the dribble a gazillion times in a row, that is somehow Mason and/or Miles fault. They get left on an Island and have to step up to cut off the penetration and then the guard dishes to the open big for the layup. Maybe our guards should stay in front of their man a little more often?:D

Over the last month or more Mason has played really good defense, blocking and altering shots, and rebounding like a maniac, yet more often than not folks will say the "Plumlees are getting beat on defense". Miles has not been as consistent as Mason but he has still played good defense more often than not. Go watch the BC game or the last 8 minutes of the Maryland game and watch how well Miles played on defense.

Finally, in a few of the games, the defensive game plan has been to shut down Miami's guards, Maryland's wings, BC's 3 point shooting etc, while sacrificing points from Reggie Johnson and Williams from Maryland. Yet people say "Oh well their big got 20 points so our bigs defense sucked". Not true. Rarely were any of those points off of power post up moves. Most were bunnies due to the pressure we were applying elsewhere and in the case of Maryland, Gary Williams did a good job of putting us in situations where the help defender had too far to go to stop the bunny. That is not Miles or Mason or even Ryan's fault. That is great execution by the opponent. Also, we won those games if that counts for anything.

To sum it up, our team defense is still a work in progress, but guards and wings getting beat off the dribble or late rotating is just as much of an issue as anything else. Maybe it feels better to blame it on Miles and Mason, not sure, but their defense is not nearly as bad as some are making it out to be.

Great post! Our guards and wings have let their man beat them off the dribble way too many times. When that happens Mason, Miles and/or Ryan are left to defend a quicker player. This get's them into foul trouble and then the team suffers as a result. Like I said, this post hits the nail on the head. Go Duke!

[GODUKEGO]

Oh boy way do I start!!! Comparing their offensive statistics does not tell the story. Lance and Z knew their offensive limitations and played within them. Mason and Miles in their defense are coming around to playing offensively within theirs. In a previous post someone stated that they have the green light from 15-20 feet for jump shots. LOL on that one and I said I would keep statistics on their jump shots from outside of ten feet. Since the UAB game they are 0-9 and I will bet anyone on this site they will never be above 25%. They however are not shooting from outside as much, thank goodness!!

They cannot stop another team’s good big man while Lance and Z could. Jordan Williams and Reggie Johnson were a combined 70% from the field with a shot not farther away than five feet from the basket. They either refuse to block out for rebounds, forget to or have not learned to. They commit way to many silly fouls trying to knock the ball out of a guards hand at the top of the key, trying to block every shot or not setting a legal pick. Averaging 17 minutes a game, Miles is averaging 2.9 fouls a game and Mason at 24 minutes a game; he is averaging 2.4 fouls a game. Against St Johns, Mason had four fouls in eighteen minutes. They also do not switch back to their man when coming to the top of the key. It has been mentioned in other post that this is not their fault but a teammates who does not switch. I am referring to switching back. As mentioned above, offensively neither has a consistent ten to fifteen foot jump shot. The other team’s bigs are staying under the basket to get rebounds, stop penetration and forcing us to take to many three point shots. I am reading that they are improving. Over the last several games, I see regression. Look at the stats. I read they are a work in progress. This is Mason’s 61st game and Mile’s 98th game.


We will see soon enough about the Plumlee's with upcoming games at Maryland (Jordan Williams) at Tech (Jeff Allen) at Miami (Reggie Johnson) home and at UNC (Zeller, Henson and Barnes who will have a smorgasbord). The teams ahead of us in the latest poll Kansas, Pittsburgh, Ohio State and Texas all have a strong inside game and right now deserve to be ahead of us (right now).

They both have so much athleticism that I am baffled why I do not see any improvment.

[94duke]

Zoubs was a 7-foot turnover machine for much of his career, which was seriously frustrating. Lance collected fouls so easily that he was taken out games early. We had a magnificent run towards the end of last year, and those guys were huge parts of it, especially Zoubs. But before that I was nervous every time he touched the ball.

Mason strikes me as a guy who has gotten by for so long on his athletic ability that he's still learning the game. I think Miles is actually underrated, but neither is as strong as Zoubs was or as some of the post players we have to face. We're not talking Shelden Williams and Elton Brand here.

So our big guys end up in mismatches, and to a great extent we live and die on the perimeter. That's just the personality of this team, and how K assembled it.

I do not believe this is correct. Zoubs averaged about 1 TO per game for his career.


season to games min to/game min/to
06-07 37 32 235 1.16 6.35
07-08 20 25 262 0.80 13.10
08-09 25 36 427 0.69 17.08
09-10 48 40 746 1.20 15.54

[cameroncrazy3104]

I don't think anyone would deny the fact that Mason are Miles are probably ahead of where Zoubek and LT were at the same point in their career. I think people are just frustrated because Z and LT ended their careers in fine fashion and were great senior leaders, whereas the Plumlees still need to develop their natural abilities.

I think part of what made people love Zoubs and Lance last year is the heart and fire they played with. Not necessarily the scoring, which we can all agree was not the strong point of either of last years senior bigs. From the Maryland game on last year we played with a whole new intensity and that was for the most part Zoubs.

When the Plumlees are in the game I dont expect vocal leadership from them. I would love them to lead by example and show the rest of the big guys how to play hard. Teach Ryan and Josh what is like to play in big games. And I only include Ryan because he did not get much experience last year compared to the Plumlees.

[CDu]

I do not believe this is correct. Zoubs averaged about 1 TO per game for his career.


season to games min to/game min/to
06-07 37 32 235 1.16 6.35
07-08 20 25 262 0.80 13.10
08-09 25 36 427 0.69 17.08
09-10 48 40 746 1.20 15.54

Well, he was a turnover machine his freshman year (note the minutes per turnover). And any analysis of his turnover rate needs to also consider the general lack of touches he got. I'd argue that his turnover rate per possession of the ball as a freshman and sophomore was very high (it was obviously high as a freshman).

It's harder to tell about the junior year, because I can't remember whether his possessions rate was more similar to his senior year or his sophomore year as a junior. By his senior year, he had cut down to the point that he was even getting more touches and still seeing a reduction in turnover/min.

[Newton_14]

Well, he was a turnover machine his freshman year (note the minutes per turnover). And any analysis of his turnover rate needs to also consider the general lack of touches he got. I'd argue that his turnover rate per possession of the ball as a freshman and sophomore was very high (it was obviously high as a freshman).

It's harder to tell about the junior year, because I can't remember whether his possessions rate was more similar to his senior year or his sophomore year as a junior. By his senior year, he had cut down to the point that he was even getting more touches and still seeing a reduction in turnover/min.

Correct and most of the TO's Zoub's Freshman year was walks. He got called for traveling practically every time he attempted a post move that year and what little part of his Soph year he was on the floor. He finally kicked that habit his Jr year. He started up until the Wake game in January when he becamed a bit overwhelmed, mainly due to his conditioning being below par. (He missed the entire summer before rehabbing the foot injury). Last year he finally had the benefit of being fully healthy with an entire summer of conditioning and skill development, along with the benefit of being an upperclassman who had greatly matured in his overall game.

[soccerstud2210]

I think part of what made people love Zoubs and Lance last year is the heart and fire they played with. Not necessarily the scoring, which we can all agree was not the strong point of either of last years senior bigs. From the Maryland game on last year we played with a whole new intensity and that was for the most part Zoubs.

When the Plumlees are in the game I dont expect vocal leadership from them. I would love them to lead by example and show the rest of the big guys how to play hard. Teach Ryan and Josh what is like to play in big games. And I only include Ryan because he did not get much experience last year compared to the Plumlees.

Reading through this thread I was surprised to see that all the comparing between the two sets were off of gaugeable production. Not many mentions of what LT and Zoubs brought to the table that wasn't recorded in the statsheet. This was really the first post that harped on it.

I think what set LT and Zoubs apart from the Plumlee brothers is the un-gaugeable. LT was a leader. A vocal leader. Zoubs was a leader. A vocal leader. I don't see that in the Plumlees when they are out on the court. LT did the dirty things. I can't say that Miles and Mas never do the dirty things, but that is a big reason that K had LT in the game. He was a leader. He always gave 110%, he did whatever was necessary to win the game. I haven't really seen that from Miles and Mas. It's kind of like they just go through the motions. They have the talents and abilities there to replace and become LT and Zoub types of players, but I don't think we have really seen it yet. At least not consistently. I hope they being to see that. And DO IT. Because they could become SCARY good.

[pfrduke]

Well, he was a turnover machine his freshman year (note the minutes per turnover). And any analysis of his turnover rate needs to also consider the general lack of touches he got. I'd argue that his turnover rate per possession of the ball as a freshman and sophomore was very high (it was obviously high as a freshman).

It's harder to tell about the junior year, because I can't remember whether his possessions rate was more similar to his senior year or his sophomore year as a junior. By his senior year, he had cut down to the point that he was even getting more touches and still seeing a reduction in turnover/min.

Turnover rate (percentage of possessions used that ended in turnovers):

2006-07: 33.1%
2007-08: 20.7%
2008-09: 19.1%
2009-10: 21.5%

So his freshman year was turnover plagued, but then he stabilized into basically a 20.5% rate for the last three years of his career. The D-I average for teams the past 3 years has been right around there, so he was neither a turnover machine nor particularly astute at avoiding them.

[chadlee989]

Oh boy way do I start!!! Comparing their offensive statistics does not tell the story. Lance and Z knew their offensive limitations and played within them. Mason and Miles in their defense are coming around to playing offensively within theirs. In a previous post someone stated that they have the green light from 15-20 feet for jump shots. LOL on that one and I said I would keep statistics on their jump shots from outside of ten feet. Since the UAB game they are 0-9 and I will bet anyone on this site they will never be above 25%. They however are not shooting from outside as much, thank goodness!!

They cannot stop another team’s good big man while Lance and Z could. Jordan Williams and Reggie Johnson were a combined 70% from the field with a shot not farther away than five feet from the basket. They either refuse to block out for rebounds, forget to or have not learned to. They commit way to many silly fouls trying to knock the ball out of a guards hand at the top of the key, trying to block every shot or not setting a legal pick. Averaging 17 minutes a game, Miles is averaging 2.9 fouls a game and Mason at 24 minutes a game; he is averaging 2.4 fouls a game. Against St Johns, Mason had four fouls in eighteen minutes. They also do not switch back to their man when coming to the top of the key. It has been mentioned in other post that this is not their fault but a teammates who does not switch. I am referring to switching back. As mentioned above, offensively neither has a consistent ten to fifteen foot jump shot. The other team’s bigs are staying under the basket to get rebounds, stop penetration and forcing us to take to many three point shots. I am reading that they are improving. Over the last several games, I see regression. Look at the stats. I read they are a work in progress. This is Mason’s 61st game and Mile’s 98th game.


We will see soon enough about the Plumlee's with upcoming games at Maryland (Jordan Williams) at Tech (Jeff Allen) at Miami (Reggie Johnson) home and at UNC (Zeller, Henson and Barnes who will have a smorgasbord). The teams ahead of us in the latest poll Kansas, Pittsburgh, Ohio State and Texas all have a strong inside game and right now deserve to be ahead of us (right now).

They both have so much athleticism that I am baffled why I do not see any improvment.

Last year Z averaged 3.5 fouls in 18 min and Lance averaged 3 fouls. I have to agree with Boozer i think they have been playin better d as of late esp. Mason. Last game our guards got killed and they had to help off and then the big got an easy basket.

[Hancock 4 Duke]

Back to your point. I find it amusing that when our guards get beat off the dribble a gazillion times in a row, that is somehow Mason and/or Miles fault. They get left on an Island and have to step up to cut off the penetration and then the guard dishes to the open big for the layup. Maybe our guards should stay in front of their man a little more often?:D



Ahh, Sorry. Should have specified. I definitely wasn't putting any of the guards problems with off-the-dribble penetration on Mason/Miles shoulders', but I have noticed that Many times, to help on defense, they will play on the perimeter (not their fault, need to play help defense), but mainly I am talking about one-on-one, they are always beat off the dribble. For example, I remember a specific play against Florida State (Only remember because of the black jerseys) where Mason was guarding the ball on the baseline corner, and all the man did was beat him off-the-dribble for an easy layup. Maybe they should learn to play back more, giving that the opposing team isn't a jumpshooting team.

[Kedsy]

I'll tell you one thing that Lance and Z had over the Plumlees was that this time last year, there were a lot more DBR posts bashing them than there are bashing the Plumlees now. I know that's hard to believe since Plumlee-bashing appears to be a favorite sport around here, but Z/Lance-bashing was even worse last year at this time.

People have such short memories. And those memories are too often recalibrated based on the result of the last game of the year. If we'd lost to Purdue or Baylor last year, nobody would be singing the praises of Z and Lance right now, but they would have played just as well. We should all let Miles and Mason improve at their own rate.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

I have not bashed Mason, Miles, or Ryan in a major way that I know of. I love what they have done and think they are doing great. I just got like one or two issues with each that I wont to see them get better at.

Mason: Quit the effin fadaway jumpers!!!! and when he rebounds to immediatly try to put it back up rather than hesitate.

Miles: Play nastier/ more aggresive.

Ryan: Work on the inside more. He is becoming to happy with being on the outside and slowly inches his way farther out as the game goes on.

Anyway that said Zoubek was my favorite player on last years team and my friends hate it cause I mention him all the time, but I would rather have the Mason/Miles combo compared to the Lance/Zoubek tandom this year by far and without a doubt.

[CharlestonDevil]

I understand that our first reaction is to compare our bigs this year with our bigs last year. So far I have only seen this cause more frustration on our part because we all realize that LT and Z were PERFECT in their individual and collective roles, while MP1&2 are far from it.

Miles and Mason differ in: defensive style, offensive ability, athleticism, attitude/demeanor, leadership, team tempo, expected role, and potential. Not to mention actual production.

Everything from what Coach K asks them to do, to what their actual talents are differs, so we really shouldn't compare the two. And we especially should not get frustrated when MP 1&2 do not equal or surpass the production of last year's guys.

New year, new team, and if Miles and Mason do what K says, hopefully the same result!

[dukeballboy88]

I would like to see Mason get the ball just inside the top of the key and K run an Iso for him. He has some nice shake and bake for a big man and there is no other big man in the acc that will be able to stay with him and much less stay out of foul trouble. He would have to learn to hit free throws but I think it could instill confidence in him going forward.

There is no reason they need to be guarding a non outside threat 19ft away from the basket. I know its Duke D and all but it aint working. I would like us to zone more teams like St Johns and force them to do things they cant like shoot.

[budwom]

I'm all in favor of not bashing the Plumlees. No point to it.

However, I'd ask in return that we also stay away from all the "MP2 could leave after this year" talk. He isn't remotely ready for the NBA, not that that precludes some team from taking him.

He has vast amounts of work to do before leaving for the league makes any sense at all, IMO.

[TampaDuke]

I would like to see Mason get the ball just inside the top of the key and K run an Iso for him. He has some nice shake and bake for a big man and there is no other big man in the acc that will be able to stay with him and much less stay out of foul trouble. He would have to learn to hit free throws but I think it could instill confidence in him going forward.

Might be interesting to see, but why would any team come out and guard him at the top of the key and potentially give him the opportunity to drive by? Wouldn't such a play be guarded in the same manner that you point out with your second point:



There is no reason they need to be guarding a non outside threat 19ft away from the basket. I know its Duke D and all but it aint working. I would like us to zone more teams like St Johns and force them to do things they cant like shoot.

[CDu]

Might be interesting to see, but why would any team come out and guard him at the top of the key and potentially give him the opportunity to drive by? Wouldn't such a play be guarded in the same manner that you point out with your second point:

Exactly. The benefit of Mason's ability off the dribble is contingent on the opposing big man respecting his perimeter shot. Unfortunately, Mason hasn't shown the ability to hit the perimeter shot (or even the mid-range shot) at a rate worthy of concern. So when he gets the ball on the perimeter, the defender can just sag off of him quite a bit. That great minimizes/eliminates Mason's ability to beat his man off the dribble.

Mason is such a tantalizing player. His leaping ability and passing skill are very strong. He's a pretty good dribbler for a big man as well. Unfortunately, he just doesn't seem to have any shooting touch. If he just had a more refined post game and/or better touch on his shot, he'd be an absolute force. That's not a small "if" though. Hopefully he is able to make the jump at some point.

[dukeballboy88]

You are right, he would first have to knock down a 15ft jumper on a regular basis wich I think he can. If given the green light, and a little more confidence because shooting is all confidence, he could take any big man in the country off the dribble and finish strong. I dont think he is being used correctly but hey Im not questioning K, just stating my opinion.

When a D is as spread as St. Johns was making us shoot deeper 3's, foul line in is wide open. Maybe a high low with 2 bigs with Kelly at the foul line because he can hit the j. Even if Masons j is being respected, iso him and tell him to get lower in the paint and make a move, it cant be any worse.

[azzefkram]

The weakest part of our team is not the Brothers Plumlee, but our inability to contain dribble penetration. I can't count the number of times I've seen the Brothers Plumlee rotate over to stop a guard who blew past Dre, Seth or Nolan.

[Bluealum]

The weakest part of our team is not the Brothers Plumlee, but our inability to contain dribble penetration. I can't count the number of times I've seen the Brothers Plumlee rotate over to stop a guard who blew past Dre, Seth or Nolan.

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Bigs get a bad rap for a whole lot of matador D by the guards.

[NSDukeFan]

Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. Bigs get a bad rap for a whole lot of matador D by the guards.

I agree with the premise of this thread that there is no need to bash the Plumlees and also agree that part of this bashing may be due to their helping defensively when a perimeter player is beaten (creating a 2-on-1), the player passing to the bigs' man and then getting scored on.

I would also try to resist calling the perimeter players' defense matadorian (I don't think that is a word) as their responsibilities include trying to pressure the perimeter players to generate turnovers and make interior passing difficult at the expense of some times getting beat. This is different than last year when our perimeter players were not expected to pressure out as far and generate as many turnovers as the team got most of its extra opportunities via Zoubs offensive rebounding. When this strategy does not work well, St. John's happens.

Hopefully, there will be more of the alternative where our perimeter players pressure very well, generate some turnovers, make it difficult to pass inside and don't get beat as often. Then, hopefully our first help defender (often Mason, Miles or Ryan) will know when to jump to help and when to stay with their man and the second help defender will be ready to cover their man. As the season progresses and the players continue to learn defensive rotations and the intensity and quickness that these decisions have to be made, this will result in Duke's defense improving its 3-point shooting defense (which hasn't been the strength it traditionally has been), contesting most or all interior shots and rising to be the best D in the country with a chance for the team to compete for titles in March and April. At least that is what I am hoping for.

[Kedsy]

Even if Masons j is being respected, iso him and tell him to get lower in the paint and make a move, it cant be any worse.

According to Pomeroy we have the #7 offense in the country. So I think it could be a lot worse if we change things around just because of one bad game (where we still scored 78 points).

[dukeballboy88]

According to Pomeroy we have the #7 offense in the country. So I think it could be a lot worse if we change things around just because of one bad game (where we still scored 78 points).

Do we all agree that we need to get more scoring production out of bigs?

I agree we dont need an overhaul but the sweet 16, elite 8 and the final four will be filled with teams bigger, more athletic and just better teams than St Johns. If we stick to the thread and make it about the Plumlees, I cant see Mason increasing his ppg hurting our chances.

[CDu]

Do we all agree that we need to get more scoring production out of bigs?

I agree we dont need an overhaul but the sweet 16, elite 8 and the final four will be filled with teams bigger, more athletic and just better teams than St Johns. If we stick to the thread and make it about the Plumlees, I cant see Mason increasing his ppg hurting our chances.

I don't agree, actually. I think it would be nice if our bigs became more consistent or more efficient offensive presences. But we can win without any of them becoming better scorers. I think getting back to lockdown defense will be much more important to our chances of winning than whether or not Mason ups his PPG average.

Mason hasn't shown the ability to be an efficient offensive player. I don't think it's a good idea to make the offense less efficient simply to redistribute the wealth. Now, if he became a more efficient scorer, I'd be all for getting him more opportunities. And if he starts to show more efficiency as a scorer, I think you'll see his opportunities go up.

[jv001]

You are right, he would first have to knock down a 15ft jumper on a regular basis wich I think he can. If given the green light, and a little more confidence because shooting is all confidence, he could take any big man in the country off the dribble and finish strong. I dont think he is being used correctly but hey Im not questioning K, just stating my opinion.
When a D is as spread as St. Johns was making us shoot deeper 3's, foul line in is wide open. Maybe a high low with 2 bigs with Kelly at the foul line because he can hit the j. Even if Masons j is being respected, iso him and tell him to get lower in the paint and make a move, it cant be any worse.

I'm not as confident in Mason making that 15ft shot. He's shooting poorly from the ft line and that's without being guarded. Unless he begins to hit up to 60% of his fts, I don't like him taking that shot. I would much rather see him get the ball at the goal and go up strong. But like you say, we have a great coach that take care of Mason's play. Go Duke!

[Kedsy]

Do we all agree that we need to get more scoring production out of bigs?

I agree we dont need an overhaul but the sweet 16, elite 8 and the final four will be filled with teams bigger, more athletic and just better teams than St Johns. If we stick to the thread and make it about the Plumlees, I cant see Mason increasing his ppg hurting our chances.


I don't agree, actually. I think it would be nice if our bigs became more consistent or more efficient offensive presences. But we can win without any of them becoming better scorers. I think getting back to lockdown defense will be much more important to our chances of winning than whether or not Mason ups his PPG average.

Mason hasn't shown the ability to be an efficient offensive player. I don't think it's a good idea to make the offense less efficient simply to redistribute the wealth. Now, if he became a more efficient scorer, I'd be all for getting him more opportunities. And if he starts to show more efficiency as a scorer, I think you'll see his opportunities go up.

I also don't agree with you and completely agree with CDu. A better, more consistent defense is what we need to succeed in the post-season tournaments.

Last season, the "sweet 16, elite 8 and the final four [were] filled with teams" who were bigger, more athletic, and better than Georgetown and NC State, and still we managed to do OK. The transitive property of basketball simply doesn't work, so comparing teams to St. Johns doesn't make a whole lot of sense. Having said that, if we exhibit the sort of defense we played against St. Johns, we will have trouble handling a first-round NCAAT game. I don't expect that to happen, and hopefully we'll look better on D as the season progresses.

[jv001]

The defense we played against St. Johns was not close to what I call Duke defense. In the 2nd half when we began to play better offensively, but we could not stop SJU. Only late in the game did we get some stops and cut into their lead. I agree with Cdu about our NCAA chances if we play defense like that. Matter of fact if we play that way against Maryland, we'll have a similar game as the last one. However I don't think we'll play like that. Coach K will have the team ready. Go Duke!

[gumbomoop]

Mason is such a tantalizing player. His leaping ability and passing skill are very strong. He's a pretty good dribbler for a big man as well. Unfortunately, he just doesn't seem to have any shooting touch. If he just had a more refined post game and/or better touch on his shot, he'd be an absolute force.


They both have so much athleticism that I am baffled why I do not see any improvement.

Last preseason [summer 2009], I was very optimistic about the Devils. I wouldn't have been so bold as to predict a NC, but I certainly saw them as a legit contender, and said so. My optimism was based on my assumptions about the excellence of Kyle and Jon, to a much lesser [and obviously less prescient] extent on my hope in dramatic improvement by Nolan, and my expectations re Mason. I had no idea whatsoever of how valuable Lance and Brian would be.

But Mason had wowed me with his skill set at the McDonald's stuff.

His injury was discouraging, so when he returned to action and was less than a major force, I put it down to his being way behind because of the injury.

Then I began seeing those lottery draft projections. I heard Jay Bilas say a couple of times that Mason was Duke's most talented player. [If by chance Jay's word was something other than "talented," such as "best" or maybe "athletic," I cheerfully accept the friendly amendment. At any rate, Jay was very impressed.] So I thought to myself, well, I wasn't totally misjudging how good Mason would soon become.

We all know how the season went, to a wonderful conclusion. Mason [and Miles, and Andre] played their respective supportive roles. All contributed at key moments.

Midseason 2010-2011 [21 games is roughly 1/2 of Duke's total this season......], Mason has had ups and downs; hence this thread.

I would be genuinely interested in hearing more from Jay Bilas about Mason. It's delicate, of course, for it would presumably require Jay to comment on why Mason has yet to fully live up to the potential that has wowed Jay and others, me included.

The athleticism of both Miles and Mason is tantalizing. One assumes that the coaching staff would prefer not to live and die by the 3, as the odds of that strategy derailing the "pursuit" of this year's NC are ominous. The Plumlees certainly will have plenty of opportunities to contribute some on O and lots on D, especially against Md, but also v. Miami [away], NCSt, Clemson, and the increasingly effective Heel bigs.

Bound to be some really good bigs in the NCAAT. Can't get to the Final Four without some real contributions from Miles and Mason. Probably can't beat Md either. Tomorrow promises to be intense. We're lucky.

[Troublemaker]

You are correct, sir, LT and Brian were much more efficient on offense last year than the Plumlees are this year. The best single stat to use is Pomeroy's individual offensive efficiency rating, which takes everything into account (team tempo, player usage, opportunity set, shooting, assists, offensive rebounding, turnovers, etc.). The numbers:

2009 - 2010
Brian Zoubek: 120.4 (Godlike for a player his size)
Lance Thomas: 98.8 (we all know Lance's strength wasn't his offense)

2010 - 2011
Miles Plumlee: 105.8 (individual categories fairly average across the board)
Mason Plumlee: 95.6 (done in by awful free throw shooting and a high turnover rate)


Agreed. There is sizable separation between Z last season and Miles & Mason this season.

It's not all on the brothers. None of the 7 non-seniors are playing near their maximum potential right now, imo, and frankly, we could be getting more from Kyle as well. He's only shooting 44% on the season. Now, Kyle did start to heat up in February last season. If that happens again and a consistent third scorer is found, Duke will be right there with the top teams even with the brothers providing no more than what they have so far this season, I believe.

But without a doubt, Zoubek was a notch above. The single most dominant individual skill on last season's championship team was not Jon's protective ball-handling or Kyle's shooting (even post-Jan) or anything that one of the top three guys did. It was, of course, Z's offensive rebounding. Which was literally the best in the country. I wonder how many times in Duke's long, proud history has a player been literally the best at some quantifiable individual skill. I would guess less than five times, possibly only once.

[smcook313]

I realize that. And our response is that count stats aren't really a good measure to support your argument. I don't necessarily disagree with your overall point. But using a flawed comparison to support your point is a bad idea.

I dont think people are saying Zoubs and Lance are better players or that they would rather have them on this years team. The problem with them (and really just Mason...remember that Miles wasnt expected to be anything more than he is) is potential being met. Again, Ill stick with Mason because, honestly, I dont expect too much more out of Miles. Mason is not the player that he was touted to be! But he is good enough to be. My one critique to those stats you posted above is Defense. Points are few and far between for boths sets compared. Rebounds are not the problem here either. Its 2 things to me that stand out and IT IS in the eye test.....1) Holding your position down low. Stop getting beat from the key and stop leaving your damn man for weak side D! You can help out but lose your man, Mason!! Zoubs didnt need help down low. He changed shots without leaving his feet which made his block out after the shot automatic. Mason and Miles jump at every shot and the guy streaking to the boards just coasts right past them. You are 9 1/2 feet tall when you stand there with your hands up, you can alter a shot and get the board OR block without fouling or leaving the ground. Also, you dont get beat by the head fakes for the easy ones. 2) I already eluded to.... Blocking out Its fundamental basketball that we consistently dont do down low. This would take up offensive boards by maybe 2 or 3 a game and same to the Defensive #'s. Can you imagine Mason (or Ryan & Miles) averaging 12 boards a game? And an extra 2 offensive rebounds could mean 4 point more average to his totals. 10 ppg and 12 rpg would be All ACC stats. I have watched every second of every game for the last 15 years of my life. I have never seen worse fundamental play in the paint than I am watching this year. So much talent and so little thinking out there. Do I think Mason will get there? Yes, I do But I also think he can do it now. He has the strength, size, and athleticism to be the big man we need down low. Its hustle, its fundamentals, and its discipline. I think he has all 3 but lacks overall effort of all 3, as well. This is just my opinion from armchair. I know some will agree and some wont. I would like to hear someone tell me any different with a game (beside Marquette) to back it up. Great topic btw and I really appreciate everyones thoughts on this. We are still Duke and I love all of our team!

[pfrduke]

Can you imagine Mason (or Ryan & Miles) averaging 12 boards a game?

Mason's averaging 11.1 rpg in conference play (2nd best in the ACC, behind Jordan Williams). So, yeah.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

I'm all in favor of not bashing the Plumlees. No point to it.

However, I'd ask in return that we also stay away from all the "MP2 could leave after this year" talk. He isn't remotely ready for the NBA, not that that precludes some team from taking him.

He has vast amounts of work to do before leaving for the league makes any sense at all, IMO.

The NBA does not care. They won't people with crazy atheleticism and great upside. Most NBA mock drafts have Mason goin anywhere from as high as late lottery or to late first. So tech yes he should go after this year to cash in on the money. Will he? We just do not know yet and I realy hope he does not.

[Kedsy]

stop leaving your damn man for weak side D!

Do you honestly think Mason is helping weak side on a whim? Don't you think it more likely he's being told to do this by the coaching staff?


Zoubs didnt need help down low.

Tell that to Tracy Smith.

The reason our defense worked so well last year was precisely because of help defense. If a perimeter player got by our outer defense, Z stepped up and the second big rotated over. We did it very, very well. (Although not so well in last year's NC State game.)

Now, last year the coaches weren't asking our defense to extend as much as Duke usually does, not asking our defense to force as many turnovers as we traditionally do. This meant our big men last year didn't have to flash to the perimeter as much as this year's bigs are required to do.

Z was a great defensive player who played very well within the team concept we were employing at the time. But Mason's situation is different, and your statement is incorrect.


Blocking out Its fundamental basketball that we consistently dont do down low. This would take up offensive boards by maybe 2 or 3 a game and same to the Defensive #'s.

First of all, blocking out is difficult within the parameters of the defensive scheme we are using this year (and most years). Duke teams have had trouble blocking out since Coach K first came to Durham. It was easier last year when we were playing a different defensive scheme.

Second, and more pertinent to your statement, while it's possible to block out on offensive rebounds, if your opponent is doing his job it's very difficult because the defensive player generally has position closer to the basket. Unless you can block him out so far under the basket that he can't get the rebound (which is rarely possible), or block him to one side while correctly predicting which side the rebound will bounce toward (which is possible but not on too much of a consistent basis), then blocking out will not lead to significantly more offensive rebounds. In general, most good offensive rebounders have a "nose for the ball" -- they can more quickly envision where the rebound will end up and then can slash through the crowd to get there first.

Well, there is one other situation where blocking out might help, and that is when you are not trying at all to play offense, and spend most offensive possessions attempting to get rebounding position as opposed to scoring position. That's what Z did a lot of the time (after he set his screens, of course) and it's one of the reasons he had so much success at it. However, that's not what Mason Plumlee is being asked to do.

Finally, Brian Zoubek averaged 3.6 offensive rebounds per game last season. To expect Mason to add two or three offensive boards a game by boxing out alone is way beyond unrealistic.

Sorry about the long-winded response, but the bottom line is there's no way better boxing out would lead to Mason getting 2 or 3 more offensive rebounds a game.


Can you imagine Mason (or Ryan & Miles) averaging 12 boards a game?

As pfrduke said, Mason is already averaging 11.1 rebounds per game in ACC play. It doesn't take too much imagination to add another 0.9 to the total.

[UrinalCake]

The NBA does not care. They won't people with crazy atheleticism and great upside. Most NBA mock drafts have Mason goin anywhere from as high as late lottery or to late first.

I'm assuming you meant to say "want" instead of "won't"... I would agree with that, but only for guys who have played 0 or 1 years in college. In Mason's case he'll need to actually show that he can actually produce, because after two years we're no longer talking about potential. There's a difference between a guy with athleticism whom you've never seen play, versus a guy with athleticism who has played and not produced. I think the mock drafts you're looking at might be a little outdated. At any rate, I do think he has time to improve his draft stock. Whether or not he should or will go is a debate for another time.

[Starter]

I'm surprised nobody mentioned this, but with Zoubek in particular, the player we had the final 16 games -- starting with his starting assignment in the Maryland game -- was a dramatically different player than the one we had before that. In those final 16 games, Zoubek averaged only 6.6 points, but added 10.06 rebounds and .93 blocks, and shot 67%. That far exceeds what the original poster put up as Miles' statistics this season. He also played within his means and was an absolute defensive force.

Though as some have said, simply comparing statistics only tells some of the story. We watched both these guys. We know that Zoubek -- at least the one inthose final 16 games -- was the best pure big man Duke had since Shelden Williams.

Note that I have no desire to kill the Plumlees. For one, I feel that they both played solid roles on a championship team. I used to love seeing Krzyzewski throw both brothers in there with their energy and chemistry, spelling Lance and Z almost like a hockey line change. It's just, let's be real here. Zoubek was both statistically and realistically better than either Plumlee, and Thomas was in reality a more functional player for a championship-level team than either one. He played his role so brilliantly on last year's team and blended in with the rest of our talent.

This isn't a slight of the Plumlees, who are what they are -- good athletes with great size and a lot of potential. With Kyrie Irving's ability to enhance their contributions, their limitations would be minimized to the point where we wouldn't even be having this discussion.

[smcook313]

Do you honestly think Mason is helping weak side on a whim? Don't you think it more likely he's being told to do this by the coaching staff?



Tell that to Tracy Smith.

The reason our defense worked so well last year was precisely because of help defense. If a perimeter player got by our outer defense, Z stepped up and the second big rotated over. We did it very, very well. (Although not so well in last year's NC State game.)

Now, last year the coaches weren't asking our defense to extend as much as Duke usually does, not asking our defense to force as many turnovers as we traditionally do. This meant our big men last year didn't have to flash to the perimeter as much as this year's bigs are required to do.

Z was a great defensive player who played very well within the team concept we were employing at the time. But Mason's situation is different, and your statement is incorrect.



First of all, blocking out is difficult within the parameters of the defensive scheme we are using this year (and most years). Duke teams have had trouble blocking out since Coach K first came to Durham. It was easier last year when we were playing a different defensive scheme.

Second, and more pertinent to your statement, while it's possible to block out on offensive rebounds, if your opponent is doing his job it's very difficult because the defensive player generally has position closer to the basket. Unless you can block him out so far under the basket that he can't get the rebound (which is rarely possible), or block him to one side while correctly predicting which side the rebound will bounce toward (which is possible but not on too much of a consistent basis), then blocking out will not lead to significantly more offensive rebounds. In general, most good offensive rebounders have a "nose for the ball" -- they can more quickly envision where the rebound will end up and then can slash through the crowd to get there first.

Well, there is one other situation where blocking out might help, and that is when you are not trying at all to play offense, and spend most offensive possessions attempting to get rebounding position as opposed to scoring position. That's what Z did a lot of the time (after he set his screens, of course) and it's one of the reasons he had so much success at it. However, that's not what Mason Plumlee is being asked to do.

Finally, Brian Zoubek averaged 3.6 offensive rebounds per game last season. To expect Mason to add two or three offensive boards a game by boxing out alone is way beyond unrealistic.

Sorry about the long-winded response, but the bottom line is there's no way better boxing out would lead to Mason getting 2 or 3 more offensive rebounds a game.



As pfrduke said, Mason is already averaging 11.1 rebounds per game in ACC play. It doesn't take too much imagination to add another 0.9 to the total.


True but his average is 8.6 rpg...so another 3 to 4 would make a difference...No?? I never said anything about ACC play. It wasnt ACC that just kicked our butt!!

[flyingdutchdevil]

I'll tell you one thing that Lance and Z had over the Plumlees was that this time last year, there were a lot more DBR posts bashing them than there are bashing the Plumlees now. I know that's hard to believe since Plumlee-bashing appears to be a favorite sport around here, but Z/Lance-bashing was even worse last year at this time.

People have such short memories. And those memories are too often recalibrated based on the result of the last game of the year. If we'd lost to Purdue or Baylor last year, nobody would be singing the praises of Z and Lance right now, but they would have played just as well. We should all let Miles and Mason improve at their own rate.

Kedsy is completely right and I'll be the first to admit it: Z and LT bashing was my second favorite hobby from 2006-2009 (Duke games being the first). Hell - I'd have an eternal flame under my profile name had that existed then!

Personally, I really don't like this comparison between the Brothers Plumlee and ZZ Top. They are both completely different players who added something different. That said, this is an extremely interesting thread - one of the best debates and use of stats / evidence that I've seen on DBR.

I'll be frank - I didn't watch the St Johns game and kinda glad I didn't. But I like the Plumlees. I think Mason's D has blossomed before our eyes this year. Miles is really starting to get it, albeit inconsistent. The only thing that really bothers me, and I mean REALLY bothers me, is Mason's free throw shooting (and can anyone disagree with that?). I never thought I'd say this, but I wouldn't mind Mason getting a few FT tips from Shaq - he's that bad in that area!

[noyac]

My post was directed at people that hate on the Plumlees and it addressed the fact that some posters have said Zoubs and LT were much better than them (I have read comments in other threads that reflect both opinions).

The statistics I included were just to show that while Zoubs and LT may have been better in some intangible and some tangible areas they were not drastically better than the Plumlees so Don't bash them.

When I say don't bash them I am not talking about the posters that have pointed out where the Plumlee's need to improve or what areas they are lacking in. I am talking about the people that say negative things about them for no reason other than being negative or the ones that compare them to other bigs we have had in the past.

The simple point was and still is Don't Bash the Plumlee's they are (from what I can tell) trying hard out on the floor. We can't be sure what Coach K has or has not instructed them to do in certain situations. We don't know exactly what is going on in practice.

They are Duke players that play under Coach K so we have to assume if they were not giving 100% they would not be on the floor and for that simple fact alone they don't deserve to be bashed on a Duke Message Board.

[Kedsy]

True but his average is 8.6 rpg...so another 3 to 4 would make a difference...No?? I never said anything about ACC play. It wasnt ACC that just kicked our butt!!

Well, first of all, anybody adding 3 or 4 to any counting stat (other than turnovers or fouls) would be a good thing, but since I don't think there's any way that just "boxing out" will add those rebounds, I'm not sure it's relevant.

Second, if you don't want to talk about only ACC games, fine. Mason's average is "only" 8.8 rpg right now because he had several games in which he did not play many minutes. In games that Mason has played more than 20 minutes this year, he has averaged 11.14 rebounds a game. So, really, all he seems to need is to be on the floor. In those 14 games he averaged 29.57 minutes per game; bump that up to 32 and he'd have your 12 rpg without boxing out any more than he already does.

What does he need to do to stay on the floor? Fouls have not really been holding him back. I would argue all he needs is to play hard in practice and to play great defense, and in my opinion those two things are a lot more important to his rebounding average than boxing out more.

[TampaDuke]

I'll tell you one thing that Lance and Z had over the Plumlees was that this time last year, there were a lot more DBR posts bashing them than there are bashing the Plumlees now. I know that's hard to believe since Plumlee-bashing appears to be a favorite sport around here, but Z/Lance-bashing was even worse last year at this time.

People have such short memories. And those memories are too often recalibrated based on the result of the last game of the year. If we'd lost to Purdue or Baylor last year, nobody would be singing the praises of Z and Lance right now, but they would have played just as well. We should all let Miles and Mason improve at their own rate.

After watching Zoubek for 3.5 years, I will candidly admit wondering why he was on the court most of the time and what he was doing. He always seemed to try to establish post position, call for the ball and then travel (or get it stripped or miss a chipshot) when he did get the ball. He had a knack (and the size) to get offensive rebounds but always seemed to try, unsuccessfully, to score the basket when he did. I can't tell you how many times I found myself yelling at the TV, "just dunk the ball!" or "why bring the ball back down to the floor after the rebound!"

Then, sorta like magic, something just clicked for him (or the coaching staff and their instructions to him). It's as if he finally realized that he was much better just playing within himself. He promptly began focusing on defense and rebounding and, when he got the offense board, he looked to kick it out if there was no immediate putback available. If he couldn't get the rebound, he fought to just tap the ball back or keep it alive for a teammate. Maybe my recollection is inaccurate with my blue-colored glasses, but it really seemed like it was a dramatic overnight adjustment. His confidence grew and, while I haven't looked to confirm, I wouldn't be surprised if even his points/offensive efficiency started rising toward the end. That said, we still weren't blowing most teams away (with certain notable exceptions).

I see no reason why the Plumlees can't do the same and, hopefully, do it this year. At this point in the season, I don't want to see them taking 18 ft jumpers. I don't want to see them trying to establish their post moves. I don't want to see them trying to beat their man off the dribble. To me, those seem like long-term goals. I want to see them play to their strengths as they currently exist. Rebounding, tough interior defense, a little attitude and maybe an athletic alley oop or putback from time to time. For Miles, a spark off the bench and some general disruption defensively/steals as he did against BC (if I remember correctly). In other words, focus on becoming dominant in one or two areas rather than average to above average at all things. Mason's work on the boards in ACC play and the diminished long range jump shots from them lately I think is a good sign in this regard.

[sporthenry]

I hadn't read it anywhere but this time last year, Zoubek was an afterthought. He played a whopping 2 minutes in the game vs. Georgetown with 2 fouls in those same 2 minutes. So these bigs still have a few weeks to 'get it'.

We obviously became a better defensive team as last year went on but always struggled with penetration. It was only till we started sagging a bit that we became more effective. But the gameplan against Duke has long been to penetrate and kick or shoot and have weak side rebounds, just remember the Ga. Tech game from last year. Duke lucked out a bit b/c the matchups were great come tournament time. All that said, our bigs learned the rotations on defense much better last year. That coupled with the fact that Zoubek never really jumped meant he was in a better position to rebound than Mason who is off the floor. But the second big on the help has to take away the pass/rebound to the weak side and force them to kick the ball out to a big man on the perimeter. However, as far as individual defense in the post, I think this team has been really good. I can't remember any dominant performance against us in the post like that of Tracy Smith last year and Ryan Kelly is a very disciplined on ball defender who challenges everything.

I believe K was very excited to go back to his old school high pressure defense with KI at the point. It is obvious he likes this type of defense since it took him a while to finally adapt last year to that defense. But Dawkins and Curry just lack the lateral quickness to press the ball that high and our big men just haven't learned the defense well enough to cover those holes.

As far as offensive boards, yes, the team last year grabbed 14.7 ORB compared to this years 12.1. At first, I thought this was a big deal b/c our tempo is greater this year, but we are only averaging .6 shots more this year and are shooting at a rate of 47.8% compared to last year at 44.2%. After all the math is done, Duke grabs 38% of their missed shots this year compared to 43.6% last year, so the dropoff isn't huge. If you really want to find where we are losing 1.5 possessions a game look at the TOs. Last year it was 11.12 compared to 12.67 this year.


As far as Mason's shooting, I have been very disappointed. Many recruiting services cited his ability to knock down the 15 foot shot and even said he could hit the 3 if dared to do so. So his shooting woes must either be a confidence issue or maybe the staff is working with him to change his shot. Either way, I believe he could be like a McBob or a Morris twin who can hit 35% from 3 and knock down some jump shots, so he can use his ball handling skills to get to the rim come his senior year.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

I'm assuming you meant to say "want" instead of "won't"... I would agree with that, but only for guys who have played 0 or 1 years in college. In Mason's case he'll need to actually show that he can actually produce, because after two years we're no longer talking about potential. There's a difference between a guy with athleticism whom you've never seen play, versus a guy with athleticism who has played and not produced. I think the mock drafts you're looking at might be a little outdated. At any rate, I do think he has time to improve his draft stock. Whether or not he should or will go is a debate for another time.

Yea sorry about that, I did mean "want" (brain fart). And I do not look at any NBA mock Drafts older than 2 weeks usualy. I did the newest one on espn where you basically play the lottery for the NBA draft and see what can happen in different situations depending on whos picking where and it put Mason in the lottery 2 of the 7 times I did it. So I would assume the other 5 times I did it he was just outside the lottery. Espn is not the only one as well that was putting him mid to late first round.

And as for the second bolded part. Absolutly players still get drafted based on potential after 2 years Gerald Henderson is a decent enough example, yea he did produce and do good but he was a major work in process and was drafted because of his athleticism and potential to be great. Mason has improved as well just look at his numbers from last year to this year. The NBA would also consider the fact that he plays better with a quick penetrating pg like Kyrie and see how well he did with Kyrie in as opposed to the offense we are now running with Nolan. Mason is producing just fine but like most bigs they go to the NBA as project players who need more post moves on offense and a better job defending the post as well.

[Newton_14]

True but his average is 8.6 rpg...so another 3 to 4 would make a difference...No?? I never said anything about ACC play. It wasnt ACC that just kicked our butt!!

And it was not Mason and Miles fault that we got our butt kicked Sunday. That was a team meltdown. The ACC is far more important than one freakin game against St Johns where the whole team laid an egg.

You asked us to "imagine" Mason pulling 12 boards a game, and you were quickly shown he is doing just that in the games that matter. You then ran off and found another stat to try to help your failing case.

[Newton_14]

Kedsy is completely right and I'll be the first to admit it: Z and LT bashing was my second favorite hobby from 2006-2009 (Duke games being the first). Hell - I'd have an eternal flame under my profile name had that existed then!

Personally, I really don't like this comparison between the Brothers Plumlee and ZZ Top. They are both completely different players who added something different. That said, this is an extremely interesting thread - one of the best debates and use of stats / evidence that I've seen on DBR.

I'll be frank - I didn't watch the St Johns game and kinda glad I didn't. But I like the Plumlees. I think Mason's D has blossomed before our eyes this year. Miles is really starting to get it, albeit inconsistent. The only thing that really bothers me, and I mean REALLY bothers me, is Mason's free throw shooting (and can anyone disagree with that?). I never thought I'd say this, but I wouldn't mind Mason getting a few FT tips from Shaq - he's that bad in that area!

Good post and yes I agree the major issue with Mason is free throw shooting. It is in his head badly and negatively affecting his offensive game on whole for 3 reasons. 1. It is causing him to press on all of his shots which is only making it more difficult to put the ball in the hole. 2. It is causing us to feed him in the post less often than K would like, as opponents will simply foul him if they have any inclination he will score and 3. I have noticed Nolan has been hesitant to give Mason the ball on fast breaks at times when the normal right play would be to pass to Mason for the dunk or layup, again, because of fear of opponent simply fouling.

In the BC game Nolan passed to Mason on a break and BC fouled. Should have been intentional as the defender literally pushed him in the back with no attempt on the ball. He missed both free throws. A few minutes later Nolan and Mason had a 2 on 1 and Mason was open, but Nolan kept it. (Nolan scored so it didn't matter)

Mason has to find a way to conquer the free throw woes. If he can ever find a comfort zone and score the ball consistently he will be a beast.

[Wander]

Do you honestly think Mason is helping weak side on a whim? Don't you think it more likely he's being told to do this by the coaching staff?

Yes, Mason's talents clearly lend themselves to shot blocking and the coaches know that, but he doesn't have a great intuition for when to help. He is blocking a good number of shots, but he really is overdoing it - he's giving up way too many easy layups and has to be well on his way to setting the Duke goaltending record. I suppose this is something that will get better with time.

[UrinalCake]

Absolutly players still get drafted based on potential after 2 years Gerald Henderson is a decent enough example, yea he did produce and do good but he was a major work in process and was drafted because of his athleticism and potential to be great.

I'm not sure I see Henderson as a good comparison. In his three years Henderson proved plenty. He was a go-to scorer who could create his own shot, who produced at least one highlight-real dunk per game. He single-handedly saved us from an embarrasing loss to Belmont. He was an excellent defender. While he may not have been 100% NBA-ready when he left, he had shown a whole lot more than Mason has so far IMO.

A better comparison might be Josh McRoberts, but even he had produced more on the court than Mason has (again, just my opinion, and this could easily change by the end of the season).

As for the mock drafts, I was totally wrong about that so sorry for the error. I would still be a little surprised if a team drafted him in the lottery based on what he's shown so far. I think if Mason had come out last year he might have been in the lottery, but the longer you stay in school the more you have to produce and unfortunately he just hasn't shown enough improvement.

[Kedsy]

Maybe my recollection is inaccurate with my blue-colored glasses, but it really seemed like it was a dramatic overnight adjustment.

Actually, I'm pretty sure Z's per minute and efficiency numbers last season were similar before and after the Maryland game. What seemed to happen overnight was he was able to stay on the floor without fouling for a lot more minutes. Although I'm not convinced that was truly an overnight thing, either.

[Kedsy]

I hadn't read it anywhere but this time last year, Zoubek was an afterthought. He played a whopping 2 minutes in the game vs. Georgetown with 2 fouls in those same 2 minutes.

Z was not a mere "afterthought." He was averaging 16 minutes a game in the 20 games leading up to the Georgetown game. He just didn't play that much against Georgetown.


Duke lucked out a bit b/c the matchups were great come tournament time.

I disagree with this as well. Baylor and West Virginia are exactly the sort of teams that people said we couldn't beat. We didn't win because we "lucked out" with the draw.


I can't remember any dominant performance against us in the post like that of Tracy Smith last year

While I don't think an opposing big man having a great night is indicative of "individual defense," last year, Tracy Smith scored 23 points against us with 5 rebounds. This year, Reggie Johnson went 22 and 9; Jordan Williams went 23 and 13; and that same Tracy Smith went 19 and 9. And that's just since league play started.

Our defensive scheme tends to give up these sorts of games to opposing big men -- which means you can't fairly blame Miles, Mason, and Ryan for the opposing big's breakout games -- but we've seen plenty of dominant post performances against us this season. It's OK as long as we shut down the perimeter.

[sagegrouse]

Z was not a mere "afterthought." He was averaging 16 minutes a game in the 20 games leading up to the Georgetown game. He just didn't play that much against Georgetown.



Correct! Z sat against Georgetown because of the highly mobile Georgetown center, Greg Monroe.

sagegrouse

[sporthenry]

Z was not a mere "afterthought." He was averaging 16 minutes a game in the 20 games leading up to the Georgetown game. He just didn't play that much against Georgetown.



I disagree with this as well. Baylor and West Virginia are exactly the sort of teams that people said we couldn't beat. We didn't win because we "lucked out" with the draw.



While I don't think an opposing big man having a great night is indicative of "individual defense," last year, Tracy Smith scored 23 points against us with 5 rebounds. This year, Reggie Johnson went 22 and 9; Jordan Williams went 23 and 13; and that same Tracy Smith went 19 and 9. And that's just since league play started.

Our defensive scheme tends to give up these sorts of games to opposing big men -- which means you can't fairly blame Miles, Mason, and Ryan for the opposing big's breakout games -- but we've seen plenty of dominant post performances against us this season. It's OK as long as we shut down the perimeter.

Yes, I understand he didn't play much b/c of Monroe but the major point was that at this exact point last year, our bigs were in a very similar position and nobody really foresaw Zoubek becoming as important as he did. Do you really think if we played G'Town again that Z wouldn't have played a lot more? Sure Monroe would still provide a mismatch but the same could be said of Z. When I said he was an afterthough, it was more insinuating that nobody expected much out of him and while he averaged 16 minutes/game, he was just another big in the rotation and didn't stand out too much.

WVU isn't the team people said Duke would struggle with. Ebanks and specifically Butler weren't overly athletic and they did not really have a penetrator. Baylor had athleticism at the 3/4 but again lacked penetration as Dunn enjoyed shooting more than penetration. Duke didn't have to play a guard oriented team like Nova or a guard like Wall who could break down the defense. I think everyone agrees our defense falls apart when they give up penetration and especially when the defense doesn't rotate, so yes, I do think Duke lucked out a bit by Nova falling apart and UK not hitting a 3.

And as far as defense with the bigs, I agree that they are hurt by the penetration and many bigs numbers are a result of easy baskets through this penetration. But last year, I felt that Lawall and Smith both had monster games straight up against our bigs. Maybe I remember the games incorrectly, but I feel that our bigs individual defense in the post has not dropped off much. Nobody is as versatile as LT but that just means they can't switch as often on the perimeter. The current team's problem defensivelly are both allowing more penetration than last year and poor rotation to cover the weak side.

[Jeff0r3]

How different these stats would be had Zoubs not been hurt/injured.

[flyingdutchdevil]

Good post and yes I agree the major issue with Mason is free throw shooting. It is in his head badly and negatively affecting his offensive game on whole for 3 reasons. 1. It is causing him to press on all of his shots which is only making it more difficult to put the ball in the hole. 2. It is causing us to feed him in the post less often than K would like, as opponents will simply foul him if they have any inclination he will score and 3. I have noticed Nolan has been hesitant to give Mason the ball on fast breaks at times when the normal right play would be to pass to Mason for the dunk or layup, again, because of fear of opponent simply fouling.

In the BC game Nolan passed to Mason on a break and BC fouled. Should have been intentional as the defender literally pushed him in the back with no attempt on the ball. He missed both free throws. A few minutes later Nolan and Mason had a 2 on 1 and Mason was open, but Nolan kept it. (Nolan scored so it didn't matter)

Mason has to find a way to conquer the free throw woes. If he can ever find a comfort zone and score the ball consistently he will be a beast.

It's a vicious cycle :(

I have faith.

[GODUKEGO]

Tracy Smith scored 23 points against us with 5 rebounds. This year, Reggie Johnson went 22 and 9; Jordan Williams went 23 and 13; and that same Tracy Smith went 19 and 9. And that's just since league play started.

Our defensive scheme tends to give up these sorts of games to opposing big men -- which means you can't fairly blame Miles, Mason, and Ryan for the opposing big's breakout games -- but we've seen plenty of dominant post performances against us this season. It's OK as long as we shut down the perimeter.

Not only did Johnson and Jordan have big games against us, they were a combined 70% from the field. Thank goodness Reggie Johnson was in foul trouble and only played 21 minutes and Williams was also in foul trouble and had to sit. I was at both games and neither player scored from more than five feet. They did not have to because they both had their way with the Plumlee's. I do not see how our defensive scheme this year has anything to do with this. They were constantly out of postion and just could not stop them one on one under the basket. I was at The State game. Tracy Smith with his earlier knee surgery is not the same player he was last year. Snith had the ball about eighteen feet from the basket. He was between the free throw line and the right corner. Mason was covering him. I said to my wife watch, he is going to go to his right. He throws a fake to the left drives right toward the base line and goes in for a dunk and three point play with a foul from Mason. This is elementry basketball, make a right-handed player go left especially if that means in this case that he would be going toward the key where you could get weakside help. How many times do you think that he has heard this. With upcoming games against Wiliams, Johnson, Jeff Allen and the trio from UNC, take off your rose colored glasses and watch them objectively.

[smcook313]

And it was not Mason and Miles fault that we got our butt kicked Sunday. That was a team meltdown. The ACC is far more important than one freakin game against St Johns where the whole team laid an egg.

You asked us to "imagine" Mason pulling 12 boards a game, and you were quickly shown he is doing just that in the games that matter. You then ran off and found another stat to try to help your failing case.

Failing case?? How do out of conference games not matter? This game matters just as much as the rest of them do. Its not about the ACC tournament, its about the NCAA tournament. Of course, we want to win the ACC but I would like to win all of games. And I dont know who you think you are but your 11.1% isnt anymore impressive than another fan knowing he averages 8 for the year. I forgot, you only care about ACC play. I'm pretty sure that there isnt anything about Duke basketball that you know more than anyone else.

Wasnt this post about the Plumee'S? Do you really think 8rpg-5ppg & 4rpg-5ppg are fantastic stats? Do you see Mason or Miles playing up to their potential? If you do then you are simply admitting that they are just not that good... I dont think that's what youre saying. At least not about Mason. And you cant show me or prove to me that its not right. Our bigs dont get at it underneath. Every single announcer has talked about it all year long. Ive watched it all year long, hell my girlfriend has said it all year long! Its not hard to see that we are getting beat by other teams bigs. We are getting beat in the paint. Teams dont shoot well against us typically but they sure do get some easy baskets down low. I'm also not blaming them for everything that goes wrong on the team. We shot 19% and 29% on Sunday. Pretty sure that didnt help our cause. St Johns also scored 90+ points and shot 60%. How many points in the paint did they have? More than 50% of their pts scored.

Our inside presence is very soft on offense and we give up way too many easy shots on defense. It has been this way since Kyrie got hurt. We have a different style of offense than we did and both brothers play better with an up tempo style. Thats the truth. You say ask Tracey Smith about Zoubs not needing help...Everyone is going to get beat on an off night. Why dont we ask Purdue, Baylor,West Virginia, Butler, UNC, and anyone else who didnt beat Zoubs how they felt about his D? How many second chance opportunities did teams get in the second half of last year? How many 3's did Scheyer bury from offensive rebounds last year?

You can say that the Plumlee's have played good D, have been productive on offense, and have been consistent during ACC play, but you can really only show 1 game a piece. Thats not consistancy. You are no bigger a fan than I, you just think because someone else knows a stat that they must be what....? Any fan who says they are playing great they way they are simply isnt watching or they have very low expectations. Like no desire to win the ACC or another NC. Everyone on this post wants to see Duke play great, everyone wants to see us diversify our scoring, and everyone wants both Plumlee's to play outstanding basketball. 21 games into the season and we have the right to comment on what we've seen. Thats poor post play and far too many points scored in the paint.

[Kedsy]

St Johns also scored 90+ points and shot 60%. How many points in the paint did they have? More than 50% of their pts scored.

I assume you watched the game? St. Johns' inside scoring was mostly from backdoor layups and after beating the press. Can't really blame the inside guys for either of those situations, and you certainly can't say they were beaten one on one.


You say ask Tracey Smith about Zoubs not needing help...Everyone is going to get beat on an off night.

Well, the point is Z didn't "get beat on an off night" against NC State last year. State spread us out to the point where the 2nd big couldn't rotate quickly enough. When State's guards beat their man our center (Z or whoever) had to step up, and this left Tracy Smith open for an easy score. The fault wasn't on the center who stepped up, it was on the 2nd big who didn't rotate. And you could argue it wasn't a matter of fault there, either, since they were guarding Horner, who was generally stationed at the 3-point line, and were basically too far away to get to Smith in time.

You seem somewhat belligerent at this point, and I'm not saying you don't understand, but in general people who blame our big men when opposing bigs have great scoring games don't really understand how Duke's defense works.


How many second chance opportunities did teams get in the second half of last year? How many 3's did Scheyer bury from offensive rebounds last year?

What does this have to do with interior defense?

[AZLA]

Here's hoping the Plumlee's turn this thread on its ears and instead BASH Maryland in the paint all night long. I hope they get their hands up, be decisive and once they jump up for a pass, never come down with the ball -- but instead flush it! I want to see Mason back up the truck and not be forced into a midrange fade away. I want Miles to hold his post position and deftly convert on baby hooks and use the glass like he did against NC State. I want them to set harder screens than Dave Neal ever dreamed of (legally of course). I want the Terp cheerleaders and fans on the baseline to be looking at the logos on the bottom of the soles of their sneakers. I hope Mason shatters the %@$! backboard and hands the rim to Gary as the entire arena is left awestruck in a silent collective stuper. Go DUKE!

[DukeBlueHeart4]

Here's hoping the Plumlee's turn this thread on its ears and instead BASH Maryland in the paint all night long. I hope they get their hands up, be decisive and once they jump up for a pass, never come down with the ball -- but instead flush it! I want to see Mason back up the truck and not be forced into a midrange fade away. I want Miles to hold his post position and deftly convert on baby hooks and use the glass like he did against NC State. I want them to set harder screens than Dave Neal ever dreamed of (legally of course). I want the Terp cheerleaders and fans on the baseline to be looking at the logos on the bottom of the soles of their sneakers. I hope Mason shatters the %@$! backboard and hands the rim to Gary as the entire arena is left awestruck in a silent collective stuper. Go DUKE!

That would indeed be ideal. Here's to hoping!

[Channing]

I get just as frustrated as anyone else with the Plumlees, but I also don't think they are always put in a position to succeed. Multiple times a game either Miles or Mason will have position in the post and the ball will find them. Miles, in particular, has shown a penchant for a nice baby hook and other strong post moves when he gets the ball in a good position. This leads into my next point. Nobody can deny the supreme athleticism of both Plumlees. My question is why we don't exploit it? Kyrie would often toss a little lob off a pick and roll that was flushed by either Mason or Miles. Both of them can and will go get just about any lob around the rim. Why haven't we seen plays run for them that utilize their strength? I am sure our coaching staff can draw up a play or two that creates a backside lob opportunity.

[Bluedevil114]

In no way am I trying to bash the Plumlees with this post because Mason has been a beast over the last two games returning to the guy we saw in Kansas City earlier in the season. I just want to know why the Plumlees are not diving on the floor after loose balls. Mason had an opportunity against Maryland that led to an easy transition basket and yesterday Miles is leaning over and was not agressive enough then from nowhere a Nolan Smith dives on the floor. We see Kelly diving for balls and yesterday Hairston slid 20 feet in to homeplate for a ball.

I would love to see more intensity from them.

[cptnflash]

In no way am I trying to bash the Plumlees with this post because Mason has been a beast over the last two games returning to the guy we saw in Kansas City earlier in the season. I just want to know why the Plumlees are not diving on the floor after loose balls. Mason had an opportunity against Maryland that led to an easy transition basket and yesterday Miles is leaning over and was not agressive enough then from nowhere a Nolan Smith dives on the floor. We see Kelly diving for balls and yesterday Hairston slid 20 feet in to homeplate for a ball.

I would love to see more intensity from them.

It's not their game. Never has been.

[cbfx3]

Last years team was 19-4 at this point. Granted they went on to win it all.... I'd say lets let this years squad see how for they can go and then argue over who was what

[bluepenguin]

Can we bash their free throw shooting?:p

Seriously, I can easily see Duke losing a close game because the other team purposely fouls Mason at the end of the game. 40% is just not good.

[jkidd31]

It reminds me of the UVa coach who said, "at Duke, Taymon Domzalski can't get in the game. With us, we'd erect him a statue.".

Pete Gillen...didn't see anyone else post it.

[Greg_Newton]

I think Mason should watch some tapes of Amare Stoudamire. While his jump hook against State was a beautiful sight, I think his particular skillset is best utilized by posting up, swinging around to face the defender, faking one way and making a quick, aggressive 1-2 dribble move into the defender and towards the rim. He has extremely good handles and a quick first step for his size, and I think that type of move best exploits the advantages he has over most defenders.

I'm all about developing a back-to-basket game, but it's not the be-all-end-all for post offense. For an athletic, lanky guy like him, power moves may not be the best/only option.

[Starter]

I think Mason should watch some tapes of Amare Stoudamire. While his jump hook against State was a beautiful sight, I think his particular skillset is best utilized by posting up, swinging around to face the defender, faking one way and making a quick, aggressive 1-2 dribble move into the defender and towards the rim. He has extremely good handles and a quick first step for his size, and I think that type of move best exploits the advantages he has over most defenders.

I'm all about developing a back-to-basket game, but it's not the be-all-end-all for post offense. For an athletic, lanky guy like him, power moves may not be the best/only option.

Great call. Amar'e is a problem with his speed and explosion. Make contact, spin move, get to the rim. I'd love to see Mase develop similar offense, clear it out for him once in a while, and make things happen. (We're probably talking about needing a summer for this, but still)

[trinity92]

Pete Gillen...didn't see anyone else post it.

Wasn't it also Gillen who commented "Duke is Duke. They're on TV more than Leave it to Beaver re-runs?"

[noyac]

Can we bash their free throw shooting?:p

Seriously, I can easily see Duke losing a close game because the other team purposely fouls Mason at the end of the game. 40% is just not good.

I would hope that Mason would not be in late in a close game for that reason or at the very least offense/defense substitution.

[DevilWearsPrada]

The entire team needs a day of free throw shooting. Our FTs were so off, during the State game Saturday evening. Horrible. I kept saying "Coach didnt tell you to miss the free throw, like he instructed ZOUBS to do, in the final seconds of the Championship game vs Butler Bulldogs." Practice Practice over and over and over.

Also, Please dont bash the Plumlees. Would you want them to pack up and ship out of Duke Univ/Durham all together, like the Wear/Weir twins did over at Tarhole Land? And then for Marshall Plumlee not to come to Duke either?

We are fortunate to have Miles and Mason and Marshall on the way. Marshall was at the game on Saturday. We were walking through the parking lot at the same time on Saturday.

MP1 and MP2 have different roles this year than last year. Zoubs and Lance were there last year. Mason has improved the last few games, and Miles also. The whole team needs to improve Free Throw shots.

On triangle sports radio, Unc fans would call in and consistently bash Larry Drew II. Lets Not be like Tarhole fans.....

GTHC GTH

Our girls play the HOLES tonight on the HILL. GTHC GTH 9F 9F 9F

[UrinalCake]

In no way am I trying to bash the Plumlees with this post because Mason has been a beast over the last two games returning to the guy we saw in Kansas City earlier in the season. I just want to know why the Plumlees are not diving on the floor after loose balls. Mason had an opportunity against Maryland that led to an easy transition basket and yesterday Miles is leaning over and was not agressive enough then from nowhere a Nolan Smith dives on the floor. We see Kelly diving for balls and yesterday Hairston slid 20 feet in to homeplate for a ball.


While I agree that intensity is a good thing, I don't know that diving on the floor or into the stands is always a good idea. The announcers always go crazy when someone does it, but in reality it typically leads to a needless foul and/or someone getting hurt. I'd rather see intensity by attacking the rim and playing hard D. A 6'10 guy doesn't need to be falling on the floor just to make a point that he's being intense.

[Kedsy]

While I agree that intensity is a good thing, I don't know that diving on the floor or into the stands is always a good idea. The announcers always go crazy when someone does it, but in reality it typically leads to a needless foul and/or someone getting hurt. I'd rather see intensity by attacking the rim and playing hard D. A 6'10 guy doesn't need to be falling on the floor just to make a point that he's being intense.

True, and I don't think people are asking anybody to leap into the stands, but it is also well accepted that the guy who goes to the floor is the guy who much more likely than not will get the loose ball. It can be done without risking foul or injury, and those possessions add up.

[bluedvl]

I think the plumlees are great they just need to be able to create a little better for them selves

[AZLA]

Can we bash their free throw shooting?:p

Seriously, I can easily see Duke losing a close game because the other team purposely fouls Mason at the end of the game. 40% is just not good.

Yah, this is beginning to be a liability, to the point it's a good play for defense to foul when he gets the ball. I'm sure it will be rectified before the tourney. I hope.

I cringe when big guys have trouble shooting free throws, reminds me of the problems Shaq used to have (a la hack a Shaq) and all the ridiculous media hoopla. Shoot it underhand, take a step back from the line, et al. Ugh.

[jv001]

I would hope that Mason would not be in late in a close game for that reason or at the very least offense/defense substitution.

I guess it's what you call "late". If you mean in the last 4 minutes with a 6 pt lead or less, I'd say Mason will be in the game. Our rebounding would suffer greatly without Mason in the lineup. Now if we're up by a small margin(2-6pts) with a minute or less, I think Mason is in offense/defense substitution role as you suggested. Sure would like to see him hit more of his fts. That would solve the problem. Go Duke!

[ElSid]

In no way am I trying to bash the Plumlees with this post because Mason has been a beast over the last two games returning to the guy we saw in Kansas City earlier in the season. I just want to know why the Plumlees are not diving on the floor after loose balls. Mason had an opportunity against Maryland that led to an easy transition basket and yesterday Miles is leaning over and was not agressive enough then from nowhere a Nolan Smith dives on the floor. We see Kelly diving for balls and yesterday Hairston slid 20 feet in to homeplate for a ball.

I would love to see more intensity from them.

I actually don't agree with this. I saw Miles dive on the floor against NCST and I thought, wow, nice dive, nice hustle, but probably inadvisable. He seemed to put Tracy Smith and himself at risk. He came close to getting the ball but was actually called for a blocking foul.

I think this attitude that "you're not diving enough" is really the wrong way of looking at it. Are you hustling in a smart way? Are you pursuing rebounds and actually getting them? Are you moving your feet and getting into position to take charges or make a block?

Hairston's dive on the floor, while entertaining, was not really an amazing play that I would suggest other players try to make. I mean, he almost pulled a Willy Mays Hayes slide from Major League. It's Hairston's game to do that and he has the body for it. But I don't think the Plumlee's problem is that they're not hustling recklessly enough.

[94duke]

While I agree that intensity is a good thing, I don't know that diving on the floor or into the stands is always a good idea. The announcers always go crazy when someone does it, but in reality it typically leads to a needless foul and/or someone getting hurt. I'd rather see intensity by attacking the rim and playing hard D. A 6'10 guy doesn't need to be falling on the floor just to make a point that he's being intense.

I hate to nit-pick, but you say diving typically leads to fouls or injury.
I would say that this is not the "typical" result.
Fouls are rarely called on these plays anymore, and rarely does a player get injured.
Are you thinking of some plays in particular? I'm curious to know which ones you recall.

Actually, I wish they would call more fouls on some of these plays, one in particular. For instance, Player A dives on the floor for a loose ball. Player B dives on top of Player A to get his hands on the ball. No foul is called. Instead, a held ball is called. This seems more dangerous to me than simply diving for a loose ball. Additionally, this type of play is now encouraged, because the result is a held ball and not a foul.

[jimsumner]

I really, really like the two jump-hooks Mason converted in the second half against NCSU. His offensive game, IMO, has always been overly dependent on athletic, highlight-reel plays. And that's great. When it works. But not even Julius Erving or Michael Jordan dunked everything.

And Mason ain't the Doc.

What Mason needs is a simple, efficient half-court move that Duke can go do again and again and again. That jump-hook is just what the doctor ordered. Mason told me after the game that he and Wojo had been working on just that play instead of the weak, fall-away jumper. Mason never makes that and when he misses, he's not an option for the rebound. The jump hook is stronger, more consistent and doesn't take him away from the boards.

More, sir, more.

[hq2]

It's a good shot for him to use. He's tall enough, and has good enough leaping ability, to get decent elevation when he goes up for it; very hard to block. It could even be usable in the NBA (note that Shelden's jump hook was not.) He just needs to get more reps on it and get more confident. If I were him this summer, I would shoot nothing but that and free throws (!!!!!).

[pfrduke]

Mason told me after the game that he and Wojo had been working on just that play instead of the weak, fall-away jumper.

That's impossible. It's well known around these parts that Wojo can't coach big men. :p

[UrinalCake]

I hate to nit-pick, but you say diving typically leads to fouls or injury. I would say that this is not the "typical" result. Fouls are rarely called on these plays anymore, and rarely does a player get injured. Are you thinking of some plays in particular? I'm curious to know which ones you recall.

Well as far as injuries the one that stands out is of course Chris Duhon in the 2001 ACC tournament, diving into a cameraman and breaking his rib. I agree that this isn't "typical," but is it even worth the risk? Your chances of actually saving the ball in that type of scenario is pretty small. And I guess you could say that it's simply the mindset that you want to instill, which makes sense, but I think being smart about what you choose to dive after is also part of a good mindset.

I totally agree with you that fouls should be called more often in loose ball situations. It almost seems like calling a jump ball is just the default that the refs assume, and they don't actually watch what's happening or if one player gets to the ball first while the other guy hammers him. I can't think of specific examples of a guy diving on the floor and getting called for a foul as a result, but I tend to think it happens a lot. Maybe I'm wrong. My basic point, which I think some others have agreed with, is that diving and flying around shouldn't be the best indicator of a guy's effort.

[noyac]

I didn't read where anyone else mentioned that it appears the coaches have been stressing the bank shot to Miles and the rest of the bigs. If this is the case then it is a very smart move.

They say the art of the midrange jumper has been lost but if you ask me the art of the bank shot was lost a long time ago.