NC State-UNC

[wilson]

NC State looks really horrible. If I didn't know any better (and if he weren't wearing that sort of conspicuous, brightfreakingred jacket), I would wonder if those players had ever even met a coach.
That said, the heels have not exactly thrown a knockout punch. Despite the fact that it was 13-2 about 4 minutes in, carolina leads by only 13 at the half. I see no possible way that State will have a chance to win at the end, but carolina could honestly be up by about 25 right now.

[CBDUKE]

Sidney Lowe should be gone. If you can't get up and play together against your rival you need a new coach. (Easier than getting new players!)

[davekay1971]

Probably the worst I've seen State play all year, and I've watched enough games to see this team play really, really badly at times (ie: at Wisconsin, at Florida State, the second half at Clemson).

I'm amazed that Carolina only managed to get into halftime up 13. It's amazing to say this for a Roy Williams team, but Carolina has managed to become a good defensive and excellent rebounding team, while still a pretty suspect offensive team.

Mike Patrick continues to annoy me with his repetition of how unfair it was to Barnes the way he was hyped by "media outlets" (a breathtakingly deceitful line from a guy working for ESPN) then screaming with awe and wonder every time Barnes does anything positive. Elmore, on the other hand, is the perfect commentator for this game - his natural negativity fitting State's awful performance nicely.

On a side note: telling for the state of the non-Duke ACC this season - I watched Xavier play Richmond earlier and am struck by how much better the basketball was in that game compared to this display from 2 of the Big Four (and that's in a game not including Wake Forest).

[DukeUsul]

Henson looked like Hansbrough with all those steps on that dunk.

State starting to finally look like they might actually care.

[davekay1971]

Sidney Lowe should be gone. If you can't get up and play together against your rival you need a new coach. (Easier than getting new players!)

Assuming Lowe is gone (and I assume he is), State will actually be in a decent place with its player personnel next season. I'm going to assume Leslie is staying (since he hasn't shown himself to be remotely NBA ready this year), which leaves State with a very talented core.

They'll have Harrow, who has shown great potential, and Brown in the backcourt, Wood at the 3, Leslie at the four, then probably Harrow down low. They have locked up Joseph Uchebo (a 4 star prospect, 7'0" center) who may quickly earn himself a starting spot. Their other recruit, Tyler Harris, is a 4 star 6'8" wing, and should be able to contribute. State won't be deep, but they will have the pieces in place for a new coach to find some success. Lowe may not have gotten the job done, but he won't have left the cupboard bare.

[jdj4duke]

State makes a small run and looks like maybe they are coming to the gym and then Henson gets away with a goal tend, The Black Firkin hits a three, and UNC back up by about 15. That will probably do it even with 12 minutes left.

Mike Patrick now slobbering all over Justin Knox, too. At least Elmore calling out NCSU for being generally disengaged in their real rivalry game.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

When Duke is playing it seems like they (Elmore and Patrick) talk about Harrison Barnes. When UNC is playing why don't they talk about Kyle Singler or Nolan Smith?

Just asking.

GO DUKE!

[PSurprise]

How many more games do you think Lowe will last? This was a pathetic excuse for a team today, against your biggest rivals, and they lay an egg. State's lucky they're playing Carolina and not a better team because they'd be down by 35 to a lot of teams...

[davekay1971]

Hi,

When Duke is playing it seems like they (Elmore and Patrick) talk about Harrison Barnes. When UNC is playing why don't they talk about Kyle Singler or Nolan Smith?

Just asking.

GO DUKE!

Because ESPN remains desperate to pump up Barnes and UNC for ratings purposes. They don't have to pump up Duke because we're the defending national champs and Duke has been consistently drawing good national ratings since the early 90s.

I think Henson has now reached the point where the ACC refs give him a HUGE benefit of the doubt when he blocks a shot/hacks the crap out of someone. Obvious hack on Leslie's shot, no call, Leslie on the bench getting blood cleaned up. Reminds me of the benefit of the doubt they gave Hansbrough on rebounding, where he was never called for over-the-back because he had such a rep as being a good, aggressive rebounder.

With regards to the question regarding number of games Lowe has left, I would be shocked if State made a move before the end of the season.

[billyj]

How many more games do you think Lowe will last? This was a pathetic excuse for a team today, against your biggest rivals, and they lay an egg. State's lucky they're playing Carolina and not a better team because they'd be down by 35 to a lot of teams...

It is mind boggling how Sidney Lowe still have a coaching job.

[Kewlswim]

Hi,

There is something about Barnes, even when he is doing well that makes him unlikeable. I can't see how he could be gloating over beating NC State.

GO DUKE!

[taiw93]

Geez. State is making Barnes look like freakin' Ryan Kelly out there ;)

[sagegrouse]

It is mind boggling how Sidney Lowe still have a coaching job.

Well, I have switched over to golf -- I love the views at Torrey Pines.

This was a pathetic first half that rivaled the earlier FSU game. Isn't it amazing in the ACC this year how some road teams have lost before the game even starts? Hey, guys! It's not that hard to play on the road -- have some fun.

I don't know Debbie Yow's administrative tendencies, but I wouldn't be surprised if Monte Towe were interim coach come tomorrow morning. Some AD's and pro owners NEVER make a change during the season.

The Wolfpack was -- not -- ready -- to play -- its biggest rival, and the school against which it competes for dollars and fan attention and state government support. How could you not be ready to play?

sagegrouse

[billyj]

Guy is just a terrible coach at any level. With the talent they have at state, they should be able to compete in the ACC, I feel sorry for kids playing there, especially the freshmen.

[captmojo]

:(
Hi,

There is something about Barnes, even when he is doing well that makes him unlikeable. I can't see how he could be gloating over beating NC State.

GO DUKE!

They'd gloat over beating the local chapter of the Boy's Club.

I'm not gonna sit here and say State has ever had much of a chance today, the way they get so scared whenever they look at that much baby blue. But the game plan they have come with had a great style...none. They seem to never perform as a team. They look like they are all looking to each get a top 10 on Sportscenter. There's way too much individuality on that team. Guns without ammo? :confused:

By the by, the holes still get away with murder. This was one of the most, if not the most, lopsidedly called by the zebras, in favor of the dump humpers, that I've ever been witness to. Way too many bad/missed calls to sit here and list one by one.

Oh yeah...Duke gets all the calls, right? Thanks for no help, Pack. :(

[dukelifer]

Well, I have switched over to golf -- I love the views at Torrey Pines.

This was a pathetic first half that rivaled the earlier FSU game. Isn't it amazing in the ACC this year how some road teams have lost before the game even starts? Hey, guys! It's not that hard to play on the road -- have some fun.

I don't know Debbie Yow's administrative tendencies, but I wouldn't be surprised if Monte Towe were interim coach come tomorrow morning. Some AD's and pro owners NEVER make a change during the season.

The Wolfpack was -- not -- ready -- to play -- its biggest rival, and the school against which it competes for dollars and fan attention and state government support. How could you not be ready to play?

sagegrouse

State is a bit of a mess - but I am beginning to think UNC is getting its act together and will be a dangerous team from here on out. They have talent and when it all gels- I think they can make a run in March. So far they have looked shaky on the road- but have found a way except for that anomaly against Ga Tech. At home- they are very solid suggesting this is more about confidence than ability. Folks on this board try to argue that Roy is not a good coach- that is nonsense- the guy is an excellent coach and will find a way. UNC should be ranked and at least show that the ACC is more than a one team league.

[jipops]

There seems to be a lot of focus on how bad NC State was in this game. Interesting that there were very few of those view-points in our victory over at the RBC. UNC's defense is very, very good. They make a lot of teams look inept.

UNC is pretty much back. They aren't a national power but I think it is a good chance that they are 1st in the ACC standings by the middle of next week and they will remain a contender the entire season. Also interesting that pretty much all of the offensive load was UNC's front court in this game.

[Kewlswim]

:(

They'd gloat over beating the local chapter of the Boy's Club.

:(

Thanks. I forgot for a moment who I was talking about. Just you watch, N.C. State will probably play Duke much tougher than they played UNC. I can't remember the last time I watched an ACC team play this poorly. I think Wake would have beaten them today.

GO DUKE!

[Kewlswim]

There seems to be a lot of focus on how bad NC State was in this game. Interesting that there were very few of those view-points in our victory over at the RBC. UNC's defense is very, very good. They make a lot of teams look inept.

UNC is pretty much back. They aren't a national power but I think it is a good chance that they are 1st in the ACC standings by the middle of next week and they will remain a contender the entire season. Also interesting that pretty much all of the offensive load was UNC's front court in this game.

Hi,

To compare this State team and how they played Duke at RBC is like comparing apples to oranges. They (State) plays as well as they did against Duke and this game is a 5-7 point win by UNC or maybe State even steals the win. The Wolfies played like deer in the highlights and I am not sure why. I think one has to blame coaching. Perhaps their freshman guard being out might have made a big difference, but I wouldn't have expected that much particularly because he didn't practice for the full week so it wasn't a last minute issue.

GO DUKE!

[loran16]

There seems to be a lot of focus on how bad NC State was in this game. Interesting that there were very few of those view-points in our victory over at the RBC. UNC's defense is very, very good. They make a lot of teams look inept.

UNC is pretty much back. They aren't a national power but I think it is a good chance that they are 1st in the ACC standings by the middle of next week and they will remain a contender the entire season. Also interesting that pretty much all of the offensive load was UNC's front court in this game.

Different games. This was a road game for NC State and a Home game for Carolina. The State game was AT State for Duke. Home Court advantage is a BIG swing in college basketball, and NC State did not improve on it today, but that's what made Duke's win more impressive, and UNC's less so.

[Cameron]

Sidney Lowe should be gone. If you can't get up and play together against your rival you need a new coach. (Easier than getting new players!)


In their last 21 meetings against North Carolina, NC State has been defeated 20 times. This is presently as much of a rivalry as the Nashville Predators vs. Kirby Puckett.

Speculating over Sidney's chances of termination at season's end while watching this game was like watching The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and wondering if anyone will die. Goodbye, Sid the Kid. You accomplished, well, very little. Good luck assisting in the NBDL. The Fort Wayne Mad Ants aren't that far a flight and they were 22-28 last year with all their players back.

A sad state of affairs for the Wolfpack program. But they do have some good talent to build off for next season.

[SupaDave]

In their last 21 meetings against North Carolina, NC State has been defeated 20 times. This is presently as much of a rivalry as the Nashville Predators vs. Kirby Puckett.

Speculating over Sidney's chances of termination at season's end while watching this game was like watching The Texas Chainsaw Massacre and wondering if anyone will die. Goodbye, Sid the Kid. You accomplished, well, very little. Good luck assisting in the NBDL. The Fort Wayne Mad Ants aren't that far a flight and they were 22-28 last year with all their players back.

A sad state of affairs for the Wolfpack program. But they do have some good talent to build off for next season.

In theory this sounds good but in practice Lowe has actually done some really good things for the Pack. As you yourself mentioned, the cupboard is no longer bare. Not just that but it seems everyone on Lowe's team actually gets along. This is a team that spends time together during the summers. This is a team that now actively helps the coach recruit. It's just a shame they can't help him coach - or perhaps they should.

Lowe brought the RED back out. This is a team that actually had the Pack crowd EXCITED this summer - which hasn't happened in a long time. Lowe has indeed brought the Pack back in terms of "noise" but he hasn't been able to turn the corner. They sent the two former Pack coaches away b/c they were "boring" even though one was consistently above average. But Lowe is filling the seats and has come up with some occasional big wins.

The Pack is hungry and rowdy again - and a lot of that is due to Lowe. I'm no fan but I know that the Pack's energy is back.

[CDu]

In theory this sounds good but in practice Lowe has actually done some really good things for the Pack. As you yourself mentioned, the cupboard is no longer bare. Not just that but it seems everyone on Lowe's team actually gets along. This is a team that spends time together during the summers. This is a team that now actively helps the coach recruit. It's just a shame they can't help him coach - or perhaps they should.

Lowe brought the RED back out. This is a team that actually had the Pack crowd EXCITED this summer - which hasn't happened in a long time. Lowe has indeed brought the Pack back in terms of "noise" but he hasn't been able to turn the corner. They sent the two former Pack coaches away b/c they were "boring" even though one was consistently above average. But Lowe is filling the seats and has come up with some occasional big wins.

The Pack is hungry and rowdy again - and a lot of that is due to Lowe. I'm no fan but I know that the Pack's energy is back.

A couple of notes: the cupboard wasn't bare when Sendek left. He had Atsur, Costner, McCauley, Courtney Fells, and Gavin Grant. Costner, McCauley, and Fells were underclassmen, and Grant was a junior. And I believe they had some pretty good recruits who decommitted when Sendek left (Chris Wright was one of them, I think). Lowe just struggled to utilize those guys, and then alienated them when he got Hickson (who then left). His first real recruiting class (I give him a pass on his first year because he was hired so late) was a good one (Hickson, Smith, and Gonzalez). But he then whiffed on the next class and got a decent class the following year. This past year, he did very well.

All in all, that's not bad. But I don't know that the talent stock is necessarily in any better a place than when he arrived. It's at least debatable.

The second point is a good one. He got the fan base fired up again. Unfortunately, he seems to have lost them, as I think apathy is setting in now (which is why he'll likely be fired).

[MChambers]

I didn't see the game, but if you had told me that State was playing at UNC without Harrow, I'd think it would be a one-sided game. Harrow is a big improvement over Gonzalez. Losing Harrow took away one of State's few matchup advantages. I'm not trying to defend Lowe, but this loss doesn't prove much to me.

[CDu]

I didn't see the game, but if you had told me that State was playing at UNC without Harrow, I'd think it would be a one-sided game. Harrow is a big improvement over Gonzalez. Losing Harrow took away one of State's few matchup advantages. I'm not trying to defend Lowe, but this loss doesn't prove much to me.

This loss itself doesn't prove much. But the body of work does.

[GODUKEGO]

It is mind boggling how Sidney Lowe still have a coaching job.

I agree with you 100%. His ACC record through today is 22-49. He has the worst ACC winning percentage of all the previous State coaches. There is no way that they will make the NCAA tournament. So that will be 0-5 for him. I figured that this heralded freshman class would save his job or get him fired. The later looks like the choice. They have one big win against Miami at home. Looking at their remaining ACC games that might win three of the nine remaining games.

One side of me says that I hope he stays because State will stay irrevelent except for the occasional upset like last year. The other side says a school with tradition, in the ACC and a beautiful arena derserve better. I think what the games and crowds would be like with State and UNC in the top ten.


Interesting article attached quoting Debbie Yow:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/01/22/936406/yow-is-watching-waiting.html#storylink=misearch

[CDu]

I agree with you 100%. His ACC record through today is 22-49. He has the worst ACC winning percentage of all the previous State coaches. There is no way that they will make the NCAA tournament. So that will be 0-5 for him. I figured that this heralded freshman class would save his job or get him fired. The later looks like the choice. They have one big win against Miami at home. Looking at their remaining ACC games that might win three of the nine remaining games.

One side of me says that I hope he stays because State will stay irrevelent except for the occasional upset like last year. The other side says a school with tradition, in the ACC and a beautiful arena derserve better. I think what the games and crowds would be like with State and UNC in the top ten.


Interesting article attached quoting Debbie Yow:

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/01/22/936406/yow-is-watching-waiting.html#storylink=misearch

I think Lowe has benefited from a few things:

1. Lee Fowler needed Lowe around in hopes that he'd turn out to be a good pick (and maybe allow him to save his job).
2. Excuses/bad luck. In year 1, it was the Atsur injury. In years 2 and 3, it was the chemistry problems as he tried to transition to his style with a roster designed for Sendek's style. In Year 4, it was "well, he's got a good recruiting class coming in next year." This year, it's the injury to Smith and the fact that his guys are young.
3. He did bring excitement back to the program for a few years.
4. Perhaps the school realized that the previous hiring process didn't go smoothly and were hopeful not to have to do it again.
5. His teams kept showing a little life in the ACC tournament.

Unfortunately, you eventually have to produce. Especially since the previous coach consistently got the team to the NCAA tournament, and even made it a round or two a couple of times (even though he was boring and couldn't beat UNC). The on-court results have been pretty poor.

[Duke84]

State is faced with a big public relations problem now that it's obvious that '83 National Championship PG Sidney Lowe is going to have to be fired or "reassigned". They've milked 27 years of publicity from Lorenzo Charles' putback and Valvano's wanting somebody to love run. They tried the homespun alum (Les Robinson), the brainy outsider (Sendek), and the leader of their last relevant team (Lowe).

What will they look for this time? I doubt Sean Miller would leave Arizona for State. Yet it's a good job and an ACC job. Duke got Vic Bubas from State - maybe they can luck out with a good coach looking for a big opportunity.

[CDu]

State is faced with a big public relations problem now that it's obvious that '83 National Championship PG Sidney Lowe is going to have to be fired or "reassigned". They've milked 27 years of publicity from Lorenzo Charles' putback and Valvano's wanting somebody to love run. They tried the homespun alum (Les Robinson), the brainy outsider (Sendek), and the leader of their last relevant team (Lowe).

What will they look for this time? I doubt Sean Miller would leave Arizona for State. Yet it's a good job and an ACC job. Duke got Vic Bubas from State - maybe they can luck out with a good coach looking for a big opportunity.

Yeah, the problem is that "name" coaches aren't going to come to Raleigh to a program looking up at both Duke and UNC right down the street. The program hasn't been nationally relevant in 20 years. There are better opportunities for any big-name coaches that will be available (and there won't be many big-name coaches available anyway). That is, unless the program REALLY breaks the bank to bring someone in.

The hope would seem to be, as you said, an up-and-comer looking to make the jump from a low/mid-major to a BCS school. The inherent danger in that is that younger, mid-major coaches are more hit-or-miss. But I think that they'll have to roll the dice and hope to catch a break.

[loran16]

Yeah, the problem is that "name" coaches aren't going to come to Raleigh to a program looking up at both Duke and UNC right down the street. The program hasn't been nationally relevant in 20 years. There are better opportunities for any big-name coaches that will be available (and there won't be many big-name coaches available anyway). That is, unless the program REALLY breaks the bank to bring someone in.

The hope would seem to be, as you said, an up-and-comer looking to make the jump from a low/mid-major to a BCS school. The inherent danger in that is that younger, mid-major coaches are more hit-or-miss. But I think that they'll have to roll the dice and hope to catch a break.

Yep. I mean, looking at potentials, Chris Mack at Xavier is a possibility, but the question is whether he would want to take the NC State job, when Xavier is a pretty nice platform at getting to a better Major Conference School.

You could try UCF's coach though he just got there, as he clearly has two good recruiting classes coming in, showing recruiting...but they just fell off a cliff, so his coaching is questionable.

Alternatively, you could take a risk on an assistant coach somewhere. Would you be willing to give an assistant coach of a famous coach a chance - see for example, if say someone like Chris Collins (a person who knows the area and how to recruit) would be willing to take the jump.

State will have to take a risk on the hire.

[captmojo]

Since this has become the 'Who is to replace Sidney' thread, I would rather it be the 'Who is to replace the presence of David Thompson in the stands'. It looked as though the State players were more interested in trying to make an impression on DT than SL. And, not just in this game either. With all the one-on-one moves that soon became one-on-two (or even three) that were going nowhere, they don't show the ability to remotely resemble anything that smells like a team effort. God, how I hate to agree with Len Elmore. :(

[wilson]

I didn't see the game, but if you had told me that State was playing at UNC without Harrow, I'd think it would be a one-sided game. Harrow is a big improvement over Gonzalez. Losing Harrow took away one of State's few matchup advantages. I'm not trying to defend Lowe, but this loss doesn't prove much to me.Harrow's absence definitely didn't help, but neither does it excuse poor shot selection, zero movement (of players or the ball) on offense, poor defense, dumb decisions all over the court, and general lack of hustle. I'm not piling on here; it's just that State was really that bad in every phase of the game today. To borrow a wonderful malapropism from Emmitt Smith, they got thoroughly "debacled" today. They really should be embarrassed, and they are genuinely fortunate to have lost by only 20 points.

[lotusland]

Yep. I mean, looking at potentials, Chris Mack at Xavier is a possibility, but the question is whether he would want to take the NC State job, when Xavier is a pretty nice platform at getting to a better Major Conference School.

You could try UCF's coach though he just got there, as he clearly has two good recruiting classes coming in, showing recruiting...but they just fell off a cliff, so his coaching is questionable.

Alternatively, you could take a risk on an assistant coach somewhere. Would you be willing to give an assistant coach of a famous coach a chance - see for example, if say someone like Chris Collins (a person who knows the area and how to recruit) would be willing to take the jump.

State will have to take a risk on the hire.

Greg Marshall at Wichita State would be a good get for any program. The guy can coach and he's got roots in the Carolinas. He's been successful everywhere he's been and his teams play with discipline and intensity. He's a defensive specialist and he plays a somewhat deliberate style but not as slow as Sendek. With the talent they have he would have them in the top 5 in the conference better next year.

[Cameron]

In theory this sounds good but in practice Lowe has actually done some really good things for the Pack. As you yourself mentioned, the cupboard is no longer bare. Not just that but it seems everyone on Lowe's team actually gets along. This is a team that spends time together during the summers. This is a team that now actively helps the coach recruit. It's just a shame they can't help him coach - or perhaps they should.

Lowe brought the RED back out. This is a team that actually had the Pack crowd EXCITED this summer - which hasn't happened in a long time. Lowe has indeed brought the Pack back in terms of "noise" but he hasn't been able to turn the corner. They sent the two former Pack coaches away b/c they were "boring" even though one was consistently above average. But Lowe is filling the seats and has come up with some occasional big wins.

The Pack is hungry and rowdy again - and a lot of that is due to Lowe. I'm no fan but I know that the Pack's energy is back.


I agree that State, at least from an outside fan's perspective, has experienced a resurgence of energy and hope in its basketball program the past several seasons. But it quickly becomes a laborious task to uncover any real meaning behind that revitalized spirit upon taking into account the following string of numbers: 10, 11, 10, 9. Those are State's final rankings in the ACC standings since Sidney Lowe took over control of the program beginning with the 2006-07 season. He has missed the NCAA Tournament every year.

If the current season were to end today, the Wolves would finish ninth in the ACC for the second consecutive year. Granted, State has suffered through injury this season, but it is 2-5 in conference, with arguably the most talented club Sidney has put together to this point. And as CDu explained above, Sidney didn't exactly inherit the Southern Utah Thunderbirds after Herb Sendek was presented his papers. Guys like Brandon Costner, Engin Atsur, Ben McCauley, Gavin Grant, Courtney Fells, and later J.J. Hickson, Tracy Smith and Dennis Horner, weren't a bunch of former tennis and air hockey players frantically pieced together to organize a team. They had talent, and should have competed in -- or at least for -- one NCAA Tournament.

The sad fact for Sidney (and for us actually, or at least for me, as I still can't escape the nightmare that was 2007) is that NC State's only true on-court achievement of his five-year tenure was a first round "championship" over Duke in the 2007 ACC Tournament. The Pack made it all the way to the ACC final that year, before losing to Carolina and reaching the NIT for their efforts.

If given a one-game playoff to play for a spot in the Big Dance, I'm not sure Sidney could lead his team to victory over a diving board. Zero Big Dances out of five is atrocious. The Cleveland State Vikings have more NCAA Tournament wins since 2006 than NC State has visits. Sid the Kid has accomplished very little.

[Cameron]

Upon second thought, isn't it great that our definition of a "nightmare" is 22 victories and a first round appearance in the NCAA Tournament. We are truly blessed to have such an iconic coach and envied basketball empire. We are Duke.

:D