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View Full Version : MBB: Duke @ St. John's Pre-Game/In-Game Thread



duke74
01-28-2011, 04:32 PM
Anyone attending? I'll be there with my son (T '02).

diveonthefloor
01-28-2011, 04:54 PM
SJ starts 5 seniors. Home game for them. Lavin loves the limelight and would give his whole season to win this national TV game vs Duke.

I am officially worried.

Bob Green
01-28-2011, 07:20 PM
SJ starts 5 seniors. Home game for them. Lavin loves the limelight and would give his whole season to win this national TV game vs Duke.

I am officially worried.

Steve Lavin needs to be able to recruit top talent to St. John's and beating Duke would be a boon to his efforts. We will need to match St. John's emotional intensity over the first four minutes of the game to ensure they do not jump all over us early and stick us in a hole. I'm slightly worried about the slow starts our offense has experienced in several recent games.

duke74
01-28-2011, 07:22 PM
Steve Lavin needs to be able to recruit top talent to St. John's and beating Duke would be a boon to his efforts. We will need to match St. John's emotional intensity over the first four minutes of the game to ensure they do not jump all over us early and stick us in a hole. I'm slightly worried about the slow starts our offense has experienced in several recent games.

I also adjunct at SJU. Lavin has brought the "buzz" back to the campus and NYC (MSG). Has done a great recruiting job, right out of the gate.

WiJoe
01-28-2011, 09:06 PM
Tell me I'm wrong, but I have a feeling this will not be the customary "home away from home" game for Duke.

I will be interested to see what level of intensity Duke brings. Will Coach K have to motivate? Will it be a test to see if Nolan can motivate? It will be hard for Kyrie to do it in his boot. Just not sure what the level of intensity will be for a noncon game with a big rivalry game (I'M KIDDING ABOUT THE RIVALRY PART) coming up.

:confused:

diveonthefloor
01-28-2011, 09:18 PM
Tell me I'm wrong, but I have a feeling this will not be the customary "home away from home" game for Duke.



Maybe not the customary, but I wouldn't expect the UNC-Greensboro experience.
St John's has a rich history, tradition, and fan base.
I would be shocked if MSG were not at least 75-25 in St John's camp....
Plus there is the David/Goliath theme.

It will be a hostile crowd by and large.
Good learning experience win or lose.

Kedsy
01-28-2011, 09:30 PM
Anyone attending? I'll be there with my son (T '02).

I will be there, with my son, brother, nephew, and a few friends. Not sure what section.

Utley
01-28-2011, 10:02 PM
I'm there as well - going with a guy I went to the Gonzaga and West Virginia games last year. I hope we can keep the karma going.

77devil
01-29-2011, 07:13 AM
Maybe not the customary, but I wouldn't expect the UNC-Greensboro experience.
St John's has a rich history, tradition, and fan base.
I would be shocked if MSG were not at least 75-25 in St John's camp....
Plus there is the David/Goliath theme.

It will be a hostile crowd by and large.
Good learning experience win or lose.

This is correct based on previous meetings in MSG. It is St. Johns home court, and, unlike the periodic neutral site games in December, Duke's ticket allocation is relatively small. There is no university sponsored effort to turn out the alumni like December.

A fast Duke start to mute the opposing crowd would be nice.

-jk
01-29-2011, 08:09 AM
The Butler game was indeed a "home away from home" game. St John's will bring a large crowd, but there will still be a sizable Duke contingent tomorrow (including me, swmbo, and our two kids). Tickets were not hard to get.

Looking forward to a good game - I missed BC due to the DC snowstorm and 48 hours without power. (Damned Pepco!)

-jk

duke74
01-29-2011, 08:55 AM
The Butler game was indeed a "home away from home" game. St John's will bring a large crowd, but there will still be a sizable Duke contingent tomorrow (including me, swmbo, and our two kids). Tickets were not hard to get.

Looking forward to a good game - I missed BC due to the DC snowstorm and 48 hours without power. (Damned Pepco!)

-jk

I actually have my Firm's tickets to the suite (although the floor is much more fun). Hosting a client with a Duke connection (son attended).

Anyone want to arrange a meet-up just to associate a person with his/her DBR handle?

MChambers
01-29-2011, 04:47 PM
St. Johns, like BC, is a veteran team, but stylistically it's a big change from BC. St. Johns eschews three pointers (and isn't very accurate on the rare occasions it takes threes). St. Johns does do a good job of getting to the line, however. It will be interesting to see how Duke defends them.

On defense, St. Johns doesn't defend the three very well at all, with opponents taking 41% of their shots from long range and making nearly 38% of them. Hope we don't settle for the first outside shot we see and instead work it inside or around for excellent shots.

St. Johns has played a very tough schedule (guess that almost goes without saying for a Big East team this year).

terrih
01-29-2011, 04:52 PM
I'll be there. Section 131, row F. Let's go Duke!

sagegrouse
01-29-2011, 06:33 PM
The Butler game was indeed a "home away from home" game. St John's will bring a large crowd, but there will still be a sizable Duke contingent tomorrow (including me, swmbo, and our two kids). Tickets were not hard to get.

Looking forward to a good game - I missed BC due to the DC snowstorm and 48 hours without power. (Damned Pepco!)

-jk

Do we need a taxonomy about what constitutes a home game? How about?

"Home court:" All those familiar rims and shot lines. (E.g., Cameron.)

"Home crowd:" Majority of the crowd rooting for team. (Duke or UNC in Greensboro, but not the ACC's.)

"Home cooking:" In town at a different arena. (Butler at the Final Four in hometown Indianapolis.)

"Home contract:" Control of the arena, tickets, and seating, as against Butler in the Meadowlands. Usually results in a "home crowd."

"Home jerseys:" Like the higher seed in the ACC's or NCAA's. (Utterly useless advantage.)

"Home game:" All of the above.

sagegrouse
'BTW my faux pas on the Pre-Pre Game UMd thread jokingly intended to correct the Front Page record on the "Official UMd Bonfire" -- a wise but probably futile move by the Administration -- and make a wisecrack about burning sofas'

uh_no
01-30-2011, 01:22 AM
Duke's ticket allocation is relatively small.

The stadium seats 20,000.....I doubt any fan would have trouble getting tickets

I was going to look up available tickets...but the ticketmaster is down ATM

cakerace
01-30-2011, 05:11 AM
Do we need a taxonomy about what constitutes a home game? How about?

"Home court:" All those familiar rims and shot lines. (E.g., Cameron.)

"Home crowd:" Majority of the crowd rooting for team. (Duke or UNC in Greensboro, but not the ACC's.)

"Home cooking:" In town at a different arena. (Butler at the Final Four in hometown Indianapolis.)

"Home contract:" Control of the arena, tickets, and seating, as against Butler in the Meadowlands. Usually results in a "home crowd."

"Home jerseys:" Like the higher seed in the ACC's or NCAA's. (Utterly useless advantage.)

"Home game:" All of the above.

sagegrouse
'BTW my faux pas on the Pre-Pre Game UMd thread jokingly intended to correct the Front Page record on the "Official UMd Bonfire" -- a wise but probably futile move by the Administration -- and make a wisecrack about burning sofas'



This got me thinking about the all too rare occurrence of playing an early round NCAA game in the Dean E. Smith Center, like we did against Boston U and SMU back in 1988. My all too quickly receding recollection of those games is they had some elements of familiarity, home crowd, even “home cooking” (did the higher seeded team get to go to class that day as Butler did last year?), but they were in a somewhat different category. How about “Home court by someone else’s father”?

Speaking of playing in the Dean Dome, I am circling March 5th as our first chance in 20 years to have a .500 record playing there. I guess that puts us at the opposite end of the scale from poor Clemson… [Oh, now there’s a sickening thought: losing my “Clemson will never win in Chapel Hill” bet by a tiger Dean Dome victory in a NCAA early rounder…]

77devil
01-30-2011, 07:38 AM
The stadium seats 20,000.....I doubt any fan would have trouble getting tickets

No doubt, but there is a big difference between having a lot of supporters concentrated in sections near the court and in the lower levels rather than scattered through MSG. I've been to many Duke games at MSG, including several against St. Johns, and the pro Duke crowd has never been close to the "home away from home" games in December. As -JK noted, there will be plenty of Duke fans in attendance, but with the interest in the Johnnies on the rebound, Duke fans will be severely out numbered. This was my point.

duke74
01-30-2011, 08:26 AM
No doubt, but there is a big difference between having a lot of supporters concentrated in sections near the court and in the lower levels rather than scattered through MSG. I've been to many Duke games at MSG, including several against St. Johns, and the pro Duke crowd has never been close to the "home away from home" games in December. As -JK noted, there will be plenty of Duke fans in attendance, but with the interest in the Johnnies on the rebound, Duke fans will be severely out numbered. This was my point.

Agree...and fully expect that situation. Much more red than blue at MSG today. My students at SJU may feel some pain on Wednesday - or pleasure. Depending on the outcome today. :)

cptnflash
01-30-2011, 08:40 AM
I'll be there as well with a friend from b-school. Will be great to see the guys in person. Heading over early to watch warmups.

I know others are worried but I just don't see us losing to a team this bad, regardless of the home court / emotion factor. It's true that this game means WAY more to St. John's than it does for us, but that will be true for every game the rest of the way (UNC games excepted). And there should be enough Duke fans there to keep the crowd from truly being "hostile." I haven't seen St. John's play but I don't see anything in their 4 factor breakdown on either side of the ball that makes me worry, other than it looks like they do a decent job of forcing turnovers and we've certainly had spells where we've committed a few. We have a size advantage, a dramatic skill advantage, and a much better X's and O's coach. I hope Lavin wins enough games at St. John's to stay out of the broadcast booth forever, but I don't think today will be one of them.

duke74
01-30-2011, 08:47 AM
I'll be there as well with a friend from b-school. Will be great to see the guys in person. Heading over early to watch warmups.

I know others are worried but I just don't see us losing to a team this bad, regardless of the home court / emotion factor. It's true that this game means WAY more to St. John's than it does for us, but that will be true for every game the rest of the way (UNC games excepted). And there should be enough Duke fans there to keep the crowd from truly being "hostile." I haven't seen St. John's play but I don't see anything in their 4 factor breakdown on either side of the ball that makes me worry, other than it looks like they do a decent job of forcing turnovers and we've certainly had spells where we've committed a few. We have a size advantage, a dramatic skill advantage, and a much better X's and O's coach. I hope Lavin wins enough games at St. John's to stay out of the broadcast booth forever, but I don't think today will be one of them.

Agree, but we have had our problems with the Storm (I really miss the "Redmen") in the past.

Here's the Daily News article on the game prep. http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/college/2011/01/30/2011-01-30_storm_out_to_put_up_its_dukes.html

Rubin generally pretty good, although he thinks the Plumlees are twins....

DevilHorns
01-30-2011, 09:18 AM
Jan 3
vs #13 GTWN - W - 61-58

Jan 8
@ #15 ND - L - 76-61

Jan 12
vs #4 SYR - L - 76-59

Jan 16
vs #11 ND - W - 72-54

Jan 19
@ #15 LOU - L - 88-63

Jan 22
vs CIN - L - 53-51

Jan 26
@ #20 GTWN - L - 77-52

The Red Storm have played as tough of a January schedule as anyone, and have two home wins against ranked opponents to show for it. The good news (potentially) for us is they are riding a 3 game losing streak,

jipops
01-30-2011, 10:56 AM
The Johnnies appear to play very good defense at home holding opponents to the 50's and 60's. Today isn't going to be pretty.

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 11:30 AM
I hope the game is better than the K TV Show that preceeds it today. Usually a show we look forward to watching.

-jk
01-30-2011, 12:04 PM
Well, from crowd noise, we do have a good turnout here - it was at least as loud for Duke as St J.

-jk

Duke: A Dynasty
01-30-2011, 12:08 PM
What station is this game? I live in Culowhee, NC and have no idea what station it is. ESPN says CBS but I got no clue what channel that is.

Sorry I have now foud it.

Bluedevil114
01-30-2011, 12:16 PM
The full court press really has gotten us out of rhythm. Need to get better passing and quicker inbounds then take advantage of the extra man across half court. That will be the only way to stop them from pressing. Also need to hit the open three.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 12:17 PM
Another great shooting night...:rolleyes:

KShip21
01-30-2011, 12:18 PM
Someone tell our guys the 3-point line is the blue one. They've all shot from NBA.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 12:20 PM
Andre always shows up when you need him.

We also have to get on the boards. We are playing a small team, so we need to focus on exploiting that for second chance opportunities during this little slump.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 12:21 PM
This is weird seeing full court pressure this early in the game.

Son of Mojo
01-30-2011, 12:25 PM
Right now the guys look badly out of rhythm. We're already down 8 and SJ has the ball again. I know there's tons of time left here but we don't need the hole to keep getting deeper.

Duke: A Dynasty
01-30-2011, 12:27 PM
They just showed the Butler missed shot against us in the championhip game and I still fill the need hold my breath when he shoots it.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 12:27 PM
Right now the guys look badly out of rhythm. We're already down 8 and SJ has the ball again. I know there's tons of time left here but we don't need the hole to keep getting deeper.

Seems to be this team's M.O. lately. We'll see if they can right the ship against a worthwhile program like St. John's.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:29 PM
Just turned it on....3-12 again, yikes

DukeGirl4ever
01-30-2011, 12:32 PM
I thought we retired the Black jerseys.... :confused:

Bluedevil114
01-30-2011, 12:33 PM
For all those wondering why and how Kyrie would help us. He can beat a press.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:33 PM
For all those wondering why and how Kyrie would help us. He can beat a press.

and penetrate

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:35 PM
1st assist with 9 minutes left. not good

CDu
01-30-2011, 12:37 PM
For all those wondering why and how Kyrie would help us. He can beat a press.

I don't think anyone was wondering why or how Irving would help us.

Bluedevil114
01-30-2011, 12:37 PM
Someone tell Vern that Tyler and Seth are two different players. He said Tyler was coming in when it was actually Seth.

I hope Duke is saving the three point makes for the Maryland game.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 12:38 PM
I hate to say it, but I am impressed with the job Lavin has done with St. Johns. They are playing well. They are moving the ball effectively against us.

pfrduke
01-30-2011, 12:38 PM
1st assist with 9 minutes left. not good

Well, we've had several good passes result in wide open threes. They just haven't fallen.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:39 PM
I hate to say it, but I am impressed with the job Lavin has done with St. Johns. They are playing well. They are moving the ball effectively against us.

May not be good for us here today, but I think it's a good thing for college basketball to have the johnnies back on the map

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:41 PM
Well, we've had several good passes result in wide open threes. They just haven't fallen.

wide open threes are good and all, and i know it's a big part of our game. but there's still only a 50% shot at best. how about a layup or two. last i checked, those are close to 100%.

CDu
01-30-2011, 12:41 PM
Someone tell Vern that Tyler and Seth are two different players. He said Tyler was coming in when it was actually Seth.

I hope Duke is saving the three point makes for the Maryland game.

I hope we're saving them for the second half of THIS game.

Lord Ash
01-30-2011, 12:42 PM
It does seem to me that when Mason makes a move outside of the paint and tries some sort of fading shot, they rarely go in.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 12:43 PM
On paper they shouldn't be anywhere near our level, but they are playing brilliant basketball. We've got to get a run in sometime.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:43 PM
they are playing GREAT defense

burns15
01-30-2011, 12:44 PM
they are playing GREAT defense

and we are countering with terrible offense... settling for threes, turning the ball over, and also playing horrible defense

dairedevil
01-30-2011, 12:45 PM
Finally a 3!

SMO
01-30-2011, 12:47 PM
Thornton shoots a 3 only to have a man land on him. No call. Sometimes it's just not your day.

SMO
01-30-2011, 12:48 PM
wide open threes are good and all, and i know it's a big part of our game. but there's still only a 50% shot at best. how about a layup or two. last i checked, those are close to 100%.

See any available? I haven't.

Son of Mojo
01-30-2011, 12:48 PM
Our offense has been anything but crisp (and I've been shouting for 20 some minutes for Nolan or someone to drive on them) but our defense is porous. How many times do they have to drive with guys on either side of the baseline to pass to before you learn to defend it? It's like when playing BC and they're always going downhill (make a pass and that person is immediately driving to the goal waiting to be passed back to). Took us too long to learn how to defend that, too.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 12:48 PM
That should have been a foul. I know it doesn't always get called, but if a guy runs into the shooter so hard that he gets knocked into the bench, and then doesn't move off of him until after the ball has missed and gone out of bounds, that should be a foul.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:49 PM
See any available? I haven't.

penetrate and dish

Bluedevil114
01-30-2011, 12:49 PM
and we are countering with terrible offense... settling for threes, turning the ball over, and also playing horrible defense

I think they have showed two straight possessions how to beat a press. Can someone learn for that?

ChicagoCrazy84
01-30-2011, 12:49 PM
This is bad, painfully bad.

Our defense has been non-existent. And how about trying something other than shooting 3's???? Do we not try to get easy buckets? Nolan has been non-existent, Seth is non existent, Andre is non existent. One of our guards has to start being aggressive.

We do not look anything like a top 5 team today.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 12:50 PM
My heart hurts! CAN THEY MISS A SHOT!!!

burns15
01-30-2011, 12:52 PM
My heart hurts!

love the defense being played here... apparently the strategy is give as wide open of a shot as possible and pray that they miss... good strategy

ChicagoCrazy84
01-30-2011, 12:52 PM
This is the Clemson game all over again.

Im done with this game. On to the next!

SMO
01-30-2011, 12:52 PM
3% chance they win this . K looks mad as he'll but he's not saying anything.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 12:52 PM
On paper they shouldn't be anywhere near our level, but they are playing brilliant basketball. We've got to get a run in sometime.

Paper doesn't matter when Duke's offense disappears. No 3's = no offense. No offense = big hole. Big hole = more 3pt shots. It also doesn't help that we have literally ZERO defense under the bucket. That full court press a few minutes ago was disgustingly bad.


they are playing GREAT defense

They aren't playing better than FSU, we're just playing worse.


and we are countering with terrible offense... settling for threes, turning the ball over, and also playing horrible defense

Something happens with this team when they get challenged. I've said it before and I'll say it again. This team is not very tough mentally. It doesn't help that they've got one of the most 1-dimensional offenses in the country.

KShip21
01-30-2011, 12:54 PM
At least I can get on with my Sunday an hour early. Miserably embarrassing.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 12:54 PM
We need Kyrie for games like this! Just so we have another fast defender, and a great PG to penetrate. Anybody who says anything otherwise is not looking at this team the same way I am.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:55 PM
how many pts in the paint have we given up

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 12:55 PM
No other way to sugarcoat it. This team sucks today.

dairedevil
01-30-2011, 12:55 PM
"Duke is being undressed today". Wow, we know that there are weaknesses, but to have them all exposed at once?
One of the biggest problems I see is how we react to teams playing aggressive defense. Slow to make the appropriate adjustments.
Can we fix this at the half? Surely, st. johns will miss a basket sometime today.

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 12:55 PM
Best coach on the planet and he's not coaching just letting them play. I knew he's TV show was a bad omen.

anon
01-30-2011, 12:56 PM
Ship-jumpers: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Go Duke!

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 12:56 PM
and the set play at the end is another 3

DukeGirl4ever
01-30-2011, 12:57 PM
January 30, 2010 - we were picked apart and dismantled by Georgetown...the end result didn't turn out too bad for us.

We look like crap, but every team plays crappy every now and then. I'm just glad it's in January....

SupaDave
01-30-2011, 12:57 PM
This game remands me of the Georgetown dismantling in front of the President. Great learning tool.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 12:57 PM
I don't know if I am upset that we scheduled this game at MSG or that we just aren't playing up to it today, but I feel something about this. I hope we come back in the second half.

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 12:58 PM
St. John's won't miss unless we start contesting their shots. Boy our bigs are slow today. Are their feet in cement?

_TheFakeJWill_
01-30-2011, 12:58 PM
really need to try n pound the ball down low and kick it out... please tighten up D and hit some open shots!

Son of Mojo
01-30-2011, 12:59 PM
There's 20 minutes to get this right and they can......but they've got to play smarter on both ends and be much more aggressive on offense. And ditch those #&*! black jerseys during the half...........

moonpie23
01-30-2011, 12:59 PM
This game remands me of the Georgetown dismantling in front of the President. Great learning tool.

wasn't that one year ago today?

burns15
01-30-2011, 01:00 PM
Ship-jumpers: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Go Duke!

ship jumpers?

I mean what do you see out there? do you see a team that is playing good basketball? are any of these assessments incorrect? did anyone say I dont want to root for Duke anymore?

ChicagoCrazy84
01-30-2011, 01:00 PM
Ship-jumpers: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Go Duke!

A little hard to find the silver-lining in a game where we are losing by over 20 to a middle of the pack Big East team. Im not jumping ship, but this is disgusting and I have better things to do than watch them get smoked. Again, on to the next.

g-money
01-30-2011, 01:00 PM
Remiscent of Georgetown last year...except Georgetown was a much better team than St. Johns.

The zone defense has been porous. We're better off playing man.

DukeVol
01-30-2011, 01:00 PM
Just embarrassing....

More fuel for Big East domination.

A meddling St. Johns dominates the ACC's "best".....pitiful.....

jammsb
01-30-2011, 01:00 PM
That's just what I was going to say - reminiscent of Duke's loss to Georgetown last year - only worse!!

Bluedevil114
01-30-2011, 01:01 PM
I don't know if I am upset that we scheduled this game at MSG or that we just aren't playing up to it today, but I feel something about this. I hope we come back in the second half.

We have a home and home with St. Johns for the last few years. This was scheduled years ago.

CLW
01-30-2011, 01:02 PM
The worst half of basketball since the Clemson game a few years back where the team also layed a complete egg.

It will be interesting to see how they come out in the 2nd half.

Duke79UNLV77
01-30-2011, 01:02 PM
Yes, they have a couple of good wins, but the've lost to St. Mary's. St. Bonaventure, and Fordham and lost their last 2 games vs. ranked opponents by a combined 50 points. How bad does the ACC look now? Pathetic.

DukeVol
01-30-2011, 01:03 PM
It's bad when our man-to-man is so bad that we have to go zone....which happens to be worse because we never use it....

Think about it, this St. John's team is used to playing against Syracuse's zone; how do you think ours compares???

MChambers
01-30-2011, 01:03 PM
A little hard to find the silver-lining in a game where we are losing by over 20 to a middle of the pack Big East team. Im not jumping ship, but this is disgusting and I have better things to do than watch them get smoked. Again, on to the next.
You'll miss 20 minutes. Way too early to give up.

RoyalBlue08
01-30-2011, 01:03 PM
I would love just one of our players to show a little leadership in the second half. As talented as we our, and as much as I love the guys on this team, none of our upperclassmen are leaders. That is what we miss the most from last season.

Sgt. Dingleberry
01-30-2011, 01:03 PM
This really reminds me of the villanova game.

Whatever...they are having their best game of the year and we are having our worst. If I could pick one game for us to get blown out, this would be it.

We wouldn't beat wake shooting like this.

KandG
01-30-2011, 01:03 PM
Still a half to go, and I'm curious to see how they respond.

There are games like this during every season, but I'm alarmed, frankly, at how poor Kyle has been. Sometimes when the tide is against you, the exceptional players are supposed to take over. But he's reinforcing the suspicions of NBA scouts that he's too easily rendered ineffective by more athletic players.

St. John's following the blueprint on how to shut down Duke offense: key in on Nolan, close out on the shooters and make them take a dribble, lay off the inside guys who are very limited offensively.

ns7
01-30-2011, 01:03 PM
First, I thought there were two stages to the first half. In the first ten minutes, Duke missed a lot of wide open 3's but played good defense and kept the game somewhat close. In the second ten minutes the bad offense continued, but now with turnovers and missed shots leading to easy transition baskets.

On the bright side though, St Johns is giving up a lot of wide open 3s in the game, Duke has just missed them. From kenpom, St Johns has a horrendous 3pt defense. Eventually those shots will start dropping and Duke will go on a run. 21 points is tough though.

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 01:03 PM
We only gave up 45 pts. in the first half. Aren't we supposed to be known for our defense?

karmacoma
01-30-2011, 01:04 PM
Ship-jumpers: Don't let the door hit you on the a-s-s on the way out.

Go Duke!

I think it's fair to say we suck today. We have absolutely sucked so far. Terrible offense, even worse defense. "Embarrassing" is appropriate -- if this margin holds up, going to work tomorrow and facing the Heels fans is gonna blow.

That being said, I agree that it would be premature to read too much into one poor midseason out-of-conference road game (see: G'Town '10). So the question is whether our first half play is an anomaly, or a true exposure of weaknesses/harbinger of things to come. We'll know more in an hour -- and perhaps even more after our visit to Maryland mid-week.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 01:04 PM
We have a home and home with St. Johns for the last few years. This was scheduled years ago.

I know, but I would have tried to change it due to the conditions. We knew that the ACC was going to be down, and that is a problem for us. We have been dominating down opposition, and they have been competing with the best conference. That is why this is kind of a trap game, but also an eye opener about how much a bad conference can cost us later in the season. If the ACC doesn't improve, then we may not be used to performing in high gear. It is hard to turn off and back on... we may not have that gear if we relax too often.

anon
01-30-2011, 01:04 PM
A little hard to find the silver-lining in a game where we are losing by over 20 to a middle of the pack Big East team. Im not jumping ship, but this is disgusting and I have better things to do than watch them get smoked. Again, on to the next.


ship jumpers?

I mean what do you see out there? do you see a team that is playing good basketball? are any of these assessments incorrect? did anyone say I dont want to root for Duke anymore?

I see a team of college kids—my peers—who are trying their hardest and are definitely more upset about this situation than you are.

If you are ready to give up on these guys, then, yes, you are a ship-jumper. Sorry.

Sixthman
01-30-2011, 01:05 PM
A little hard to find the silver-lining in a game where we are losing by over 20 to a middle of the pack Big East team. Im not jumping ship, but this is disgusting and I have better things to do than watch them get smoked. Again, on to the next.

SJ presenting lots of opportunities, Duke just not taking advantage. If SJ returns to earth with their shooting, the second half will be okay. The more interesting thing is whether Duke can gain control of the action in the second half. I think it is important that they do, whether we win or not. This is a game ripe for Kyle to step up, and I expect to see a lot of sets run for him in the second.

SMO
01-30-2011, 01:06 PM
Let's hope this is this year's NC State moment.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 01:08 PM
I see a team of college kids—my peers—who are trying their hardest and are definitely more upset about this situation than you are.

If you are ready to give up on these guys, then, yes, you are a ship-jumper. Sorry.

I don't think they mean that they are done for the season or with the team, but perhaps they are realizing that this may not be our day. I am not turning the game off (I am always going to hope we can pull it out of the fire), but I am seeing the window for turning this around being significantly smaller with every minute. That isn't saying we aren't a better team per capita, but it hasn't played out that way today.

moonpie23
01-30-2011, 01:08 PM
ugh....we've got to get some shots to go down.....miss after miss helps the "state of the sinking feeling"........no confidence.....

they are shutting nolan down...

not the end of the world folks......just a horrible game......we had that georgetown debacle last year and still did ok later....


i love this team......kyrie would be a big help today....

OldPhiKap
01-30-2011, 01:09 PM
You'll miss 20 minutes. Way too early to give up.

Yup. Time to bring the funk.

Regarding scheduling this game : I'd rather learn a tough lesson about playing the press now than in March.

Bluedevil114
01-30-2011, 01:09 PM
Let's hope this is this year's NC State moment.

Or Georgetown and Wisconsin.

1/13 from 3pt land.

Saratoga2
01-30-2011, 01:09 PM
Our defense has essentially broken down for most of the half. They kept getting us out of position with passing. Two bigs running to cover one guy or a guy left totally alone for a three. Dribble penetration.

Their defense pressure has been high and it starts just getting the ball across the line. I thought Dawkins handled himself pretty well out there, but Nolan and Seth were really impacted by the pressure. Tyler doesn't seem to turn the ball over, but he is still a freshman playing against an experienced team.

Mason was contesting well out there, but the pace is high and we had to keep changing players out. I don't think either Miles or Josh did the job on defense when in for him. Kelly is still a plus but is a little slow compared to some of the guys he has to guard.

It seems unlikely that Nolan and Kyle combined will come close to their typical 40 points and the best hope of getting additional points is Andre and Ryan. Twenty one is a lot to make up. It would be good at least to win the second half.

This is another game like FSU where heavy pressure on defense exposes Duke's ball handling and decision making abilities.

NashvilleDevil
01-30-2011, 01:10 PM
Yes Duke has played terribly but to me the turning point was the tie up with Mason and the St. John's player. A St. John's player came in and shoved Tyler and Mason. Nothing was called by the refs and Coach K was trying to tell them but they ignored it.

Oh well it's looking like it may not be Duke's day.

Oriole Way
01-30-2011, 01:11 PM
That's just what I was going to say - reminiscent of Duke's loss to Georgetown last year - only worse!!

More like Clemson a couple years ago which was pretty much the only time I have seen a Duke team under K completely fold.

The things that burns is that Lavin is doing this to us. I'm also very surprised K went small and went to a full court press... I don't blame K for not calling a timeout, because there's nothing he can do and sometimes it's best to let your team take a beating without getting bailed out, but making things worse by playing into another team's strategy is surprising.

The thing is, I think Duke can still make this a game if they get out on a big run to start the second half. But there's been no effort on the part of the players, nor Coach K. It's just one of those days, one of those perfect storms. I hope some offensive and defensive adjustments are made before the MD, because even though some might think a loss heading into MD will pump the team up, I actually think this could snowball and facing an amped up Maryland team that only gets up for Duke games is not good.

Chucking up 3's - even after it's clear that they're not going down and also while failing to establish offense by driving into the lane -, not staying in front of guards on defense, and being late to help in the post (or not helping at all), will lead to another loss at Maryland.

pfrduke
01-30-2011, 01:11 PM
I would love just one of our players to show a little leadership in the second half. As talented as we our, and as much as I love the guys on this team, none of our upperclassmen are leaders. That is what we miss the most from last season.

Seriously? You think Nolan and Kyle aren't leaders? That's completely ridiculous. And wrong.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:12 PM
Yes Duke has played terribly but to me the turning point was the tie up with Mason and the St. John's player. A St. John's player came in and shoved Tyler and Mason. Nothing was called by the refs and Coach K was trying to tell them but they ignored it.

Oh well it's looking like it may not be Duke's day.

could have been used as a turning point in our favor. given us a little more energy.

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 01:12 PM
Our bigs have returned to earth unfortunately.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:14 PM
unbelievable

anon
01-30-2011, 01:14 PM
I don't think they mean that they are done for the season or with the team, but perhaps they are realizing that this may not be our day. I am not turning the game off (I am always going to hope we can pull it out of the fire), but I am seeing the window for turning this around being significantly smaller with every minute. That isn't saying we aren't a better team per capita, but it hasn't played out that way today.

Yes, I understand that we don't have a great chance of winning this game. But if you really support this team, then you support them in victory or defeat. Yes, they are playing poorly. But if they're not giving up, neither am I.

(Not that you asked, but I think that's the difference—for me—between amateur and professional sports. It's not like these guys are getting paid either way like NBA players. You know they want to win. Including Coach, who, if you have watched Duke basketball at all in the past several decades, you know is not going to really explode in the middle of the half.)

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 01:14 PM
Seriously? You think Nolan and Kyle aren't leaders? That's completely ridiculous. And wrong.

I agree, but I would like a third leader. We have two guys they have to stop to keep our leadership from being effective. We have a lot of guys out there who don't feel like stars, but a third leader on the court would make us more effective in this situation.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 01:15 PM
Yes, I understand that we don't have a great chance of winning this game. But if you really support this team, then you support them in victory or defeat. Yes, they are playing poorly. But if they're not giving up, neither am I.

(Not that you asked, but I think that's the difference—for me—between amateur and professional sports. It's not like these guys are getting paid either way like NBA players. You know they want to win. Including Coach, who, if you have watched Duke basketball at all in the past several decades, you know is not going to really explode in the middle of the half.)

Oh, I agree, but I was saying emotions run high and everyone reacts differently.

anon
01-30-2011, 01:16 PM
Yes, I understand that we don't have a great chance of winning this game. But if you really support this team, then you support them in victory or defeat. Yes, they are playing poorly. But if they're not giving up, neither am I.

(Not that you asked, but I think that's the difference—for me—between amateur and professional sports. It's not like these guys are getting paid either way like NBA players. You know they want to win. Including Coach, who, if you have watched Duke basketball at all in the past several decades, you know is not going to really explode in the middle of the half.)

I just wonder what you guys were saying at halftime of Duke-Maryland in the Final Four in 2001. Would you have given up?

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 01:16 PM
Our bigs start the second half where they left off, no D no rebounding.

burns15
01-30-2011, 01:17 PM
Yes, I understand that we don't have a great chance of winning this game. But if you really support this team, then you support them in victory or defeat. Yes, they are playing poorly. But if they're not giving up, neither am I.

(Not that you asked, but I think that's the difference—for me—between amateur and professional sports. It's not like these guys are getting paid either way like NBA players. You know they want to win. Including Coach, who, if you have watched Duke basketball at all in the past several decades, you know is not going to really explode in the middle of the half.)

It's not that we are not supporting them, I still want them to win as badly as anyone, but at some point you have to provide an honest evaluation of their play and they have sucked today, no two ways about it

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 01:17 PM
I agree, but I would like a third leader. We have two guys they have to stop to keep our leadership from being effective. We have a lot of guys out there who don't feel like stars, but a third leader on the court would make us more effective in this situation.

http://www.slamonline.com/online/wp-content/uploads/2010/12/kyrie_irving_main.jpg

Oh hai.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 01:18 PM
I don't understand why our ball handlers didn't come back towards the ball for Ryan there.

BleedsP287
01-30-2011, 01:18 PM
We need to play together better. Really looks like a bunch of individuals out there. It's been like that a lot since KI went down. I hope K can inspire a turn around at the half, certainly our initial game plan isn't working so hope to see some adjustments. Depressing really, we just seem to keep falling in this rut of ineffective offense, not moving well enough without the ball, not hitting open shots, lazy passes. More set plays for the offense I think would help.

anon
01-30-2011, 01:19 PM
It's not that we are not supporting them, I still want them to win as badly as anyone, but at some point you have to provide an honest evaluation of their play and they have sucked today, no two ways about it

Sure, they have played poorly. I can't deny that. But if that makes you ready to give up, even on just the second half of this game, then (in my opinion) good riddance.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:20 PM
next year, hairston goes up with that strong

PSurprise
01-30-2011, 01:21 PM
This team needs one of the big guys to step up on the inside on defense. That was where I think Zoubek got overlooked a lot last year (with all his offensive rebounding et al), he was able to communicate on defense and provide help. Zoubek was/is much slower than both Miles and Mason but yet he always in such better position than the Plumlees. Maybe they should watch some tape from last year.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 01:22 PM
Sure, they have played poorly. I can't deny that. But if that makes you ready to give up, even on just the second half of this game, then (in my opinion) good riddance.

I'd love to be optimistic to the point of ignorance, but unfortunately that doesn't work for me.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:23 PM
offense operating more effectively, but the D is as bad as I've seen in a long, long time

burns15
01-30-2011, 01:23 PM
Sure, they have played poorly. I can't deny that. But if that makes you ready to give up, even on just the second half of this game, then (in my opinion) good riddance.

I have NOT given up! What cant you understand?

CDu
01-30-2011, 01:24 PM
Sure, they have played poorly. I can't deny that. But if that makes you ready to give up, even on just the second half of this game, then (in my opinion) good riddance.

Yes, because sitting in front of the TV and continuing to watch a blowout loss means SO much to the team.

I don't begrudge any fan for wanting to do something more enjoyable with their Sunday afternoon.

Being a glutton for punishment doesn't make you a better fan.

Son of Mojo
01-30-2011, 01:25 PM
This isn't terping, but we're definitely not being helped by some of these ticky-tack fouls being called--the press isn't working. Stop pressing and play half-court defense and keep attacking on drives on offense.......it can be done but they need to chip away the stone now.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:25 PM
a game like this can move us off the top line.

burns15
01-30-2011, 01:25 PM
I just wonder what you guys were saying at halftime of Duke-Maryland in the Final Four in 2001. Would you have given up?

by halftime Duke had already made a significant run to cut the deficit from 22 to 8, prior to a Juan Dixon three at the buzzer that momentarily pushed it to eleven. It was obvious that Duke was on its way back and playing inspired basketball. No one has given up, but you cant avoid what is happening today. We suck today, I'm sorry I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

anon
01-30-2011, 01:26 PM
I'd love to be optimistic to the point of ignorance, but unfortunately that doesn't work for me.

I appreciate the unwarranted, veiled insult on my intelligence, but I should clarify that there is a difference between optimism and hope. Yes, I think Duke is going to lose, and I am prepared to deal with that. But yes, I still hope we can win. Is that really that foreign a feeling for a sports fan?

Ultrarunner
01-30-2011, 01:26 PM
Our bigs have returned to earth unfortunately.

You mean the bigs that have gone 3-7 from the field, 4-4 from the line and have 8 rebounds? Seems like they're out-performing offensively and doing okay on defense - considering they've been left on an island by the perimeter d.

trinity79
01-30-2011, 01:27 PM
aw crap, well when's Kyrie coming back, again?

CDu
01-30-2011, 01:27 PM
by halftime Duke had already made a significant run to cut the deficit from 22 to 8, prior to a Juan Dixon three at the buzzer that momentarily pushed it to eleven. It was obvious that Duke was on its way back and playing inspired basketball. No one has given up, but you cant avoid what is happening today. We suck today, I'm sorry I wish it wasn't true, but it is.

A good point about the fact that the lead had already been cut in half. Also, there's a big difference between deciding not to watch the rest of a non-conference mid-season game and watching what could be the last game of the season.

anon
01-30-2011, 01:28 PM
I have NOT given up! What cant you understand?

Good, and I'm not really trying to call out anyone in particular.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:28 PM
hope nolan's shoulder is all right. still holding it

ACCBBallFan
01-30-2011, 01:29 PM
Just embarrassing....

More fuel for Big East domination.

A meddling St. Johns dominates the ACC's "best".....pitiful.....

That's at least 5 very disappointing losses past few years to BE - UCONN in NCAA's, Pitt @ MSG, Nova in NCAA's, G-town away and now St John's at MSG, barring a miracle

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 01:30 PM
Terrible call! Nolan's arm was stuck under his arm! He got pulled in and then pushed!

CDu
01-30-2011, 01:31 PM
That's at least 5 very disappointing losses past few years to BE - UCONN in NCAA's, Pitt @ MSG, Nova in NCAA's, G-town away and now St John's at MSG, barring a miracle

And the West Virginia loss in the NCAAs. Of course, we also had a very satisfying win over WVU in the NCAAs too.

g-money
01-30-2011, 01:31 PM
How is that a technical on Nolan? He got hacked, got yanked into the other guy, and then got shoved.

There's the second missed technical by the three blind mice out there.

ChrisP
01-30-2011, 01:32 PM
That was an absolutely horrible call - Burrell totally pulled Smith into him to create the contact in the first place. What a load of crap! I can't believe that Clark Kellogg kept going on and on about it too after the replays CLEARLY showed what happened and that Nolan did not intend to hit the SJ player.

davekay1971
01-30-2011, 01:33 PM
Reminds me of the Georgetown game last year, as do most of the comments and infighting in this thread. Nationally televized game, late in the season, away, against a Big East team that really exposed us for being overrated with fatal flaws that would ultimately doom us in the tournament.

Oh, wait...

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:33 PM
double Ts for what

KandG
01-30-2011, 01:34 PM
I'm pretty Zen about how they're getting killed, because it's pretty clear they don't have it, but it can be tough to see some of the mistakes. Thornton, in particular, is committing all sorts of silly fouls and making defensive mistakes (like just allowing Booth to split the double team and then fouling).

The coaching staff will have a lot of film to break down with Tyler -- a LOT. (especially after that last double technical)

grossbus
01-30-2011, 01:34 PM
Key now is to get out of here without injury.

Cameron
01-30-2011, 01:36 PM
I'm currently finishing off a piece birthday cake from earlier in the month (in hopes of activating the one or two endorphins that may be left) and watching the end of this homicide scene. But, frankly, at this point I'd rather watch the complete first season of the Antiques Roadshow. At least no one gets murdered on that program.

This is a nightmare.

slower
01-30-2011, 01:36 PM
Ship-jumpers: Don't let the door hit you on the way out.

Go Duke!

Ostriches: Don't let the sand suffocate you.

CDu
01-30-2011, 01:36 PM
Reminds me of the Georgetown game last year, as do most of the comments and infighting in this thread. Nationally televized game, late in the season, away, against a Big East team that really exposed us for being overrated with fatal flaws that would ultimately doom us in the tournament.

Oh, wait...

And I'd argue that we probably WERE overrated at the time of that loss. We substantially changed the lineup and approach after that, and Zoubek emerged after that.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:36 PM
finally a little defensive intensity

SupaDave
01-30-2011, 01:38 PM
Don't let it happen to you. Let's play nice and keep it focused on the game.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 01:39 PM
St. John's is a tougher team all around. I'm not so sure that if this game were played 10 times, Duke would win 5.

karmacoma
01-30-2011, 01:39 PM
finally a little defensive intensity

ugggghhh...that window closed awfully quickly...

_Gary
01-30-2011, 01:40 PM
I wonder if having Kyrie today would have made any difference. ;)

RoyalBlue08
01-30-2011, 01:41 PM
I have dropped my expectations for this game down to just wanting to see one guy step in front of one of these wide open drives for layups. Even if they don't get there in time and get fouled, at least show that you care. On the other hand, I think if I see one more pathetic attempt at a reach as a guy blows by for a lay up, I am going to break my TV.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:41 PM
johnnies shooting 61%, duke's -12 in the assist category, and -7 in TO battle. it's a wonder we're not losing by more.

CDu
01-30-2011, 01:41 PM
St. John's is a tougher team all around. I'm not so sure that if this game were played 10 times, Duke would win 5.

The frustrating thing is that we're not losing this game simply on toughness. They're picking apart our defense and outhustling us. The toughness thing isn't helping, but we're losing in pretty much every facet of the game today.

Oriole Way
01-30-2011, 01:42 PM
At least this pace is fun to watch. And the team is finally playing with urgency. Too little too late, but you always need to play hard and try to come back no matter how far you're down.

CLW
01-30-2011, 01:42 PM
Obviously at this point in the game we have to play the press and extend the man-to-man D. However, in the future do you think K will go to the more "compressed" man-to-man D like the 09-10 squad.

Unless Kyrie is able to come back at 100% I don't think this team can effectively try to extend the defense as far out as we have up to this point in the season.

davekay1971
01-30-2011, 01:42 PM
And I'd argue that we probably WERE overrated at the time of that loss. We substantially changed the lineup and approach after that, and Zoubek emerged after that.

Sure, but my point is that a number of the posts on this thread were very similar to what we saw during that game last year. I'm not even suggesting that things will turn out the same way they did last year. My point is that it's always a mistake to make too much of a game like this. One of the many reasons Coach K is in the HOF is that he's pretty good at making adjustments after games like this.

karmacoma
01-30-2011, 01:43 PM
Don't let it happen to you. Let's play nice and keep it focused on the game.

Well said. If your glass is half-empty, vent if you need to, but please try not to read too much in to one admittedly embarrassing shellacking. And if your glass is half-full, please try to appreciate the need of the more pessimistic among us to vent a little.

CDu
01-30-2011, 01:43 PM
Sure, but my point is that a number of the posts on this thread were very similar to what we saw during that game last year. I'm not even suggesting that things will turn out the same way they did last year. My point is that it's always a mistake to make too much of a game like this. One of the many reasons Coach K is in the HOF is that he's pretty good at making adjustments after games like this.

I don't think anyone is making any more of this game than that we stink today. At least I'm not.

_Gary
01-30-2011, 01:44 PM
Guys, we are pressing because it's the only hope the team had of getting back into this. This would have worked if we'd had Kyrie (the quickest guy on the team - by a long shot), but without him we are getting beaten badly almost every time. And it doesn't help that Andre can't buy a 3 to save his life.

MartyClark
01-30-2011, 01:44 PM
The frustrating thing is that we're not losing this game simply on toughness. They're picking apart our defense and outhustling us. The toughness thing isn't helping, but we're losing in pretty much every facet of the game today.

Agree. It's hard to see any silver lining in this cloud. Let's try to regroup for Maryland.

trinity79
01-30-2011, 01:44 PM
a guy with as much of ability and scoring "inclination" as Irving is just what you need to dismantle the press. Nothing kills pressure like scoring against it. And, as we have so sorrowfully seen, we have not been able to score against it. But, hey, now everybody who plays us will probably try some version of this defensively, so we might as well plan for that. (i.e. with or without Kyrie):mad:

KandG
01-30-2011, 01:44 PM
One reality that has to be accepted, no matter what they get out of this (and why they will likely never be as good as last year's team) -- Nolan Smith is not a point guard. Jon Scheyer wasn't supposed to be one either at first, but he was able to better adapt and had the more appropriate skillset.

I hoped others could step into the playmaking breach, but Kyle, Tyler, Dawkins/Curry, etc are just not able to do that. No knock on any of the guys, but too much to expect of them.

Blindingly obvious point, I know, that's been made a few hundred times here. But a game like this makes it all too clear that any reasonably athletic and talented team that presses Duke will always have chances.

Again, with all this said, this is still a very good team that's missing shots as badly as any game they've played, though as Seth Davis pointed out, they've been skating for a few games.

_Gary
01-30-2011, 01:46 PM
Oh, and I'm terping because I'll gladly concede we'd be getting our butts kicked regardless of calls, but there have been a bunch of ticky tack calls here in this second half. Kelly just got blown for one that was a joke and gave St. John's an easy two from the line.

SMO
01-30-2011, 01:47 PM
Let's hope this is this year's NC State moment.


Well said. If your glass is half-empty, vent if you need to, but please try not to read too much in to one admittedly embarrassing shellacking. And if your glass is half-full, please try to appreciate the need of the more pessimistic among us to vent a little.

Watching this game has made me want to empty a lot of glasses of my favorite beverage.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 01:48 PM
One reality that has to be accepted, no matter what they get out of this (and why they will likely never be as good as last year's team) -- Nolan Smith is not a point guard. Jon Scheyer wasn't supposed to be one either at first, but he was able to better adapt and had the more appropriate skillset.

I hoped others could step into the playmaking breach, but Kyle, Tyler, Dawkins/Curry, etc are just not able to do that. No knock on any of the guys, but too much to expect of them.

Blindingly obvious point, I know, that's been made a few hundred times here. But a game like this makes it all too clear that any reasonably athletic and talented team that presses Duke will always have chances.

Again, with all this said, this is still a very good team that's missing shots as badly as any game they've played, though as Seth Davis pointed out, they've been skating for a few games.

Somebody just sticky this and call it a night.

Spot on in every regard. Couldn't have said it better myself.

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 01:48 PM
Spread the court. Take our bigs off the dribble. Seems like a ticket for success. Well atleast we have another Plumlee joining us next year.

HateCarolina
01-30-2011, 01:49 PM
Chicken Little called and wants everyone to know that the sky is not falling after one bad game....

As I try to be an eternal optimist I would also point out that there is still time left in this game...plenty in fact to at the very least play competitively and learn a thing or two about themselves.

Oriole Way
01-30-2011, 01:49 PM
Oh, and I'm terping because I'll gladly concede we'd be getting our butts kicked regardless of calls, but there have been a bunch of ticky tack calls here in this second half. Kelly just got blown for one that was a joke and gave St. John's an easy two from the line.

It was a bad call, but the refs are trying to keep the game under control. They don't want a fight to start, and they were close to having on with the Nolan double technical.

I think refs (and umpires) are grossly incompetent and not held accountable for anything, but in this case I think the refs have done a decent job.

davekay1971
01-30-2011, 01:49 PM
I don't think anyone is making any more of this game than that we stink today. At least I'm not.

No, you're not. But many others are. I just saw a post declaring that Nolan Smith is not a point guard. Sure, he's only leading the ACC in assists and just came off an 8 assist/ 1 turnover game. I guess the point was that he's not Kyrie Irving, who would be immensely helpful to have back and healthy, but it's absolutely ridiculous to state, at this point, that Nolan can't run the point for us. There's about 300 teams in Division 1 college hoops that would kill to have Nolan running their point.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 01:50 PM
Well, if Jason Williams & crew can make up a 10pt advantage in 57seconds then 10 minutes mean we could reasonably win by 70.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 01:51 PM
No, you're not. But many others are. I just saw a post declaring that Nolan Smith is not a point guard. Sure, he's only leading the ACC in assists and just came off an 8 assist/ 1 turnover game. I guess the point was that he's not Kyrie Irving, who would be immensely helpful to have back and healthy, but it's absolutely ridiculous to state, at this point, that Nolan can't run the point for us. There's about 300 teams in Division 1 college hoops that would kill to have Nolan running their point.

Running the point and being a point guard are two extremely different things. You know that.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:52 PM
1-19

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:53 PM
Running the point and being a point guard are two extremely different things. You know that.

scheyer falls in this category too

_Gary
01-30-2011, 01:53 PM
This is just an old-fashioned butt kicking. We literally can't catch any breaks at all. It just is what it is.

MChambers
01-30-2011, 01:53 PM
Obviously at this point in the game we have to play the press and extend the man-to-man D. However, in the future do you think K will go to the more "compressed" man-to-man D like the 09-10 squad.

Unless Kyrie is able to come back at 100% I don't think this team can effectively try to extend the defense as far out as we have up to this point in the season.
I've been thinking the same thing. Without Irving, we just aren't that different from last year.

DukeVol
01-30-2011, 01:53 PM
$100 says they break 100 on us. Does everyone get a free Chik-fil-a biscuit or something?

karmacoma
01-30-2011, 01:53 PM
1-19

Yep. Live by the three, ....

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 01:54 PM
4 assists in over 32 minutes. can't ever remember anything as poor

Oriole Way
01-30-2011, 01:55 PM
I've been thinking the same thing. Without Irving, we just aren't that different from last year.

Considering we won a championship, that's not a bad thing, right?

davekay1971
01-30-2011, 01:55 PM
Running the point and being a point guard are two extremely different things. You know that.

Nolan may be a more natural scoring guard, but he's turned himself into a helluva point guard. Which is why he's, uh, running the point.

_Gary
01-30-2011, 01:55 PM
Yep. Live by the three, ....

And not to sound like a broken record, but... If we had Kyrie we wouldn't have to be so dependent on the three. But at this point, with the complete lack of an inside game, we really don't have much of a choice.

DukeGirl4ever
01-30-2011, 01:55 PM
5% from three. Looking on the bright side, that will NEVER AGAIN HAPPEN IN THE FUTURE OF DUKE BASKETBALL!

DukeVol
01-30-2011, 01:55 PM
4 assists in over 32 minutes. can't ever remember anything as poor

No one has court vision against the zone...or any of their defenses for that matter...

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 01:55 PM
$100 says they break 100 on us. Does everyone get a free Chik-fil-a biscuit or something?

Not on Sunday.

karmacoma
01-30-2011, 01:56 PM
Watching this game has made me want to empty a lot of glasses of my favorite beverage.

The Blanton's I got for my birthday a couple weeks back is sounding awfully tempting...

OldPhiKap
01-30-2011, 01:56 PM
Interesting how a bad game brings out claims of terminal defects.

No one on the team has given up, they're still fighting.

How many times have we had a bad loss, then see the coaches adjust?

In 1991 we got RIPPED by the Heels in the ACC tourney (20 points, maybe?) and came back to win it all.

G'town made us look this bad last year, it turned out okay.

This is disappointing, but it happens. I'd rather find the flaws now, when you have time to fix them, than in mid- March.

grossbus
01-30-2011, 01:57 PM
"And it doesn't help that Andre can't buy a 3 to save his life."

He is not alone.

OldPhiKap
01-30-2011, 01:58 PM
Nolan may be a more natural scoring guard, but he's turned himself into a helluva point guard. Which is why he's, uh, running the point.

Where does he rank in the conference in assists?

Not shabby.

DukeVol
01-30-2011, 01:58 PM
What did Pomeroy say about this game?

I guess you call this an outlier in the world of statistics....

_Gary
01-30-2011, 01:58 PM
"And it doesn't help that Andre can't buy a 3 to save his life."

He is not alone.

No, definitely not. I didn't mean to pile on him, it's just that he has had a bunch of quality looks in the 2nd half.

DukeVol
01-30-2011, 01:59 PM
To look on the bright side, many of their players should thank us for helping to improve their draft status.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:00 PM
Where does he rank in the conference in assists?

Not shabby.

He's not Kyrie, but nobody is. It would have been nice to move up in the rankings, but that won't happen. I keep coming back to the conference being down. We look like we've never seen a tough team before today. It is kind of shocking to see that out of our veterans.

1-21... I don't know how that is possible, but it is still all we have offensively lately.

slower
01-30-2011, 02:00 PM
Chicken Little called and wants everyone to know that the sky is not falling after one bad game...

It has been more than ONE bad game. This is just the official wake-up call.

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 02:01 PM
4.76% from the three. Could be headed for another school record.

Jderf
01-30-2011, 02:01 PM
Kyle with the hustle play when we are down by twenty. Love it.

anon
01-30-2011, 02:02 PM
God help this board if we don't win the national championship this year.

Ultrarunner
01-30-2011, 02:02 PM
No, definitely not. I didn't mean to pile on him, it's just that he has had a bunch of quality looks in the 2nd half.

It seems like everybody has had quality looks. And nobody has hit a thing.

This is one of those games I cheer the guys, resign myself to the inevitable and laugh.

Of course, I've been known to laugh at natural disasters too.

KandG
01-30-2011, 02:02 PM
I just saw a post declaring that Nolan Smith is not a point guard. Sure, he's only leading the ACC in assists and just came off an 8 assist/ 1 turnover game. I guess the point was that he's not Kyrie Irving, who would be immensely helpful to have back and healthy, but it's absolutely ridiculous to state, at this point, that Nolan can't run the point for us. There's about 300 teams in Division 1 college hoops that would kill to have Nolan running their point.


You're right -- my statement was too extreme if taken as a literal statement. But Nolan's court vision isn't that of the type of point needed to run this offense against very good teams. Look at the difficulty he had with the press, or in making decisions that aren't programmed in advance such as passing to one of the 3 point shooters.

No need to dwell on this since everyone is just frustrated now. Of course he gets the assists and (mostly) does an admirable job of avoiding turnovers. But he's more of a combo guard that's been given the responsibility of running the offense which frequently flows off his own scoring. It works against a lot of teams because of how good he is, but when his offense is bottled up, it's a different story.

moonpie23
01-30-2011, 02:02 PM
was that obama behind the storm's bench?


:(

SMO
01-30-2011, 02:02 PM
Yep. Live by the three, ....

I don't think you're necessarily suggesting this, but I'd hate to see guys passing up open 3's if that's what the opposition is giving.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:03 PM
Kyle with the hustle play when we are down by twenty. Love it.

He is a warrior... that will never stop.

MCFinARL
01-30-2011, 02:03 PM
And it doesn't help that Andre can't buy a 3 to save his life.

True--but it's not like he is the only one. The whole team can't by a three to save their lives.

CDu
01-30-2011, 02:03 PM
Where does he rank in the conference in assists?

Not shabby.

He's played very well at the PG spot for much of the year. Unfortunately, he's had a couple of games in which he really struggled to settle the offense and create for others.

I don't blame Smith for this loss, even though he's had a rough game as a distributor. I think this game more reflects the lack of ballhandling depth we have without Irving. St. John's has made a concerted effort to keep Smith from getting the offense going, and nobody else is stepping up and making plays.

And that only talks about the offensive end. The bigger problem today (or at least as big a problem) has been the defense.

grc5
01-30-2011, 02:03 PM
G'town made us look this bad last year, it turned out okay.


Totally agree. This is the Georgetown game all over again. A non-conference trap game against a team that's executing it's offense perfectly, and playing with insane intensity in front of a rev'ed up crowd in an NBA arena. We bounced back then, and we'll do the same this year.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:03 PM
showing a little heart.

obsesseddukefan
01-30-2011, 02:04 PM
It has already been talked about and posted, but look what Georgetown did to us last year. It was humiliating and humbling and that is what is happening today. Is it tough to swallow..of course it is. But, the fact of the matter is Duke went on to win the National Championship. I can not for see the future, but I do believe we will be just fine. Just keep saying "we were fine after the Georgetown loss" At least that is what I keep telling myself. :D There will be bumps, but lets stay together and learn. That is what teaching is all about.

NEXT PLAY.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:05 PM
that won't help the shooting %

OldPhiKap
01-30-2011, 02:05 PM
Nothing dropping but no surrender

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 02:06 PM
Nolan may be a more natural scoring guard, but he's turned himself into a helluva point guard. Which is why he's, uh, running the point.

Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

K has been forced to create a PG out of a SG on multiple occasions. The offense they've been able to run has made these SG turned PG look quite successful in the stats column, but in games where they've been required to BE a PG they've failed to truly create offense, take over the game in the lane and score at will. These are things that a PG does, not 1 or 2 of them but all of them. Nolan is a SG, he knows how to score. When that's taken from him he does not know how to create scoring opportunities for others NEARLY as seamlessly as a true PG would (Kyrie for example).

It's glaring in games like this when the long-range game is bad to awful, because without an offensive presence inside, the half court game is relegated to poor passes and half-dribble-drives for contested 15 footers. That's something that stems from not having a true PG.

Nolan LEADS this team in turnovers, before and after Kyrie went out. Is that indicative of a true PG? I don't think so.

I commend K and Nolan for doing the best with the tools they've got, but it's not a crack on the young man to say that he's simply NOT a PG.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:07 PM
I'm betting they storm the court. They have probably earned it today...

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:07 PM
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

K has been forced to create a PG out of a SG on multiple occasions. The offense they've been able to run has made these SG turned PG look quite successful in the stats column, but in games where they've been required to BE a PG they've failed to truly create offense, take over the game in the lane and score at will. These are things that a PG does, not 1 or 2 of them but all of them. Nolan is a SG, he knows how to score. When that's taken from him he does not know how to create scoring opportunities for others NEARLY as seamlessly as a true PG would (Kyrie for example).

It's glaring in games like this when the long-range game is bad to awful, because without an offensive presence inside, the half court game is relegated to poor passes and half-dribble-drives for contested 15 footers. That's something that stems from not having a true PG.

Nolan LEADS this team in turnovers, before and after Kyrie went out. Is that indicative of a true PG? I don't think so.

I commend K and Nolan for doing the best with the tools they've got, but it's not a crack on the young man to say that he's simply NOT a PG.

and the reason why he's projected to be on the back-end of the 1st round of the draft. if he were a PG, he'd be a lottery pick.

anon
01-30-2011, 02:08 PM
Nolan LEADS this team in turnovers, before and after Kyrie went out. Is that indicative of a true PG? I don't think so.

Who is second?

karmacoma
01-30-2011, 02:08 PM
I don't think you're necessarily suggesting this, but I'd hate to see guys passing up open 3's if that's what the opposition is giving.

Agreed, fully. But I don't think it can be argued that our offense without Kyrie is less balanced, and that if the threes don't go down, we're going to have some issues.

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 02:10 PM
Looks like we took a step backward today and we're back to 2 vs. 5. Nolan and Kyle and a bunch of other students wearing Duke uniforms watching them fight 'till the end vs. the oppositions five players.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:11 PM
Agreed, fully. But I don't think it can be argued that our offense without Kyrie is less balanced, and that if the threes don't go down, we're going to have some issues.

Kyrie made the whole court open up for the offense. Our bigs were free to make easy shots. Kyrie was a threat that had to be doubled more often than not, and having that is always a good thing for an offense.

SMO
01-30-2011, 02:12 PM
Agreed, fully. But I don't think it can be argued that our offense without Kyrie is less balanced, and that if the threes don't go down, we're going to have some issues.

That's for sure. But last year's team was able to compensate with defense and rebounding, which are largely a function of effort. Would be nice to see that be the answer because guys can even be cold shooting 2's. Instead the poor shooting seems to be affecting Duke's D.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:13 PM
4.8% to 9.1% just like that

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:13 PM
Now we get a three!

I just have to say that while the result is embarassing, the effort still makes you proud.

davekay1971
01-30-2011, 02:13 PM
Yeah, well, you know, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

K has been forced to create a PG out of a SG on multiple occasions. The offense they've been able to run has made these SG turned PG look quite successful in the stats column, but in games where they've been required to BE a PG they've failed to truly create offense, take over the game in the lane and score at will. These are things that a PG does, not 1 or 2 of them but all of them. Nolan is a SG, he knows how to score. When that's taken from him he does not know how to create scoring opportunities for others NEARLY as seamlessly as a true PG would (Kyrie for example).

It's glaring in games like this when the long-range game is bad to awful, because without an offensive presence inside, the half court game is relegated to poor passes and half-dribble-drives for contested 15 footers. That's something that stems from not having a true PG.

Nolan LEADS this team in turnovers, before and after Kyrie went out. Is that indicative of a true PG? I don't think so.

I commend K and Nolan for doing the best with the tools they've got, but it's not a crack on the young man to say that he's simply NOT a PG.

My opinion backed up by the leading-the-acc-in-assists stat. Count the number of assists Nolan would have in this game had guys knocked down open shots. I can remember 4 or 5 off the top of my head where Nolan distributed to a guy for an open look and the player simply didn't convert.

And if your definition of a PG is a guy who can "take over the game in the lane and score at will," you're basically saying the vast majority of teams in college basketball are playing without a true PG. It's also pretty clear that you haven't actually watched Nolan play this year, because that's what he's really done well. He can't do it every game, obviously...guys that can are few and far between.

I don't think anybody (including me) is trying to say that Duke wouldn't be better off with Kyrie healthy and playing, which would allow Nolan to move to the SG position. But to imply, given the year that Nolan is having, that he's not capable of being our PG is ridiculous. In my opinion, of course.

uh_no
01-30-2011, 02:13 PM
Agreed, fully. But I don't think it can be argued that our offense without Kyrie is less balanced, and that if the threes don't go down, we're going to have some issues.

There are two things we have to do.....get out in transition, and hit 3's....those are what put us back in the game against BC, and effectively what has gotten us back in the game against all these teams we've been down against early. Our half court offense is not excellent, to put it lightly, and that's where Kyrie hurts, coach k said at the very beginning of the year that half court sets would be an issue for this team....we just can't survive long spurts without scoring.....or this team will go the way that the
08 team did against a villanova type team....

To the people making the Georgetown comparison? that game was pre zoubek....so perhaps we can consider this 'pre kyrie,' if that is not the case, then this is more like the clemson game from two years ago....

our hopes ride on kyrie's return.....

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:15 PM
I'm not trying to say anything too big, but let's remember that there are no great PGs in the league this year.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:15 PM
amazing. just amazing. falling now

davekay1971
01-30-2011, 02:16 PM
I'm not trying to say anything too big, but let's remember that there are no great PGs in the league this year.

You're clearly forgetting Larry Drew The Second...

Son of Mojo
01-30-2011, 02:16 PM
12 points to go in 2 minutes............woof. Some steals would be nice (as well as not giving up tip-in put-backs......).

DukeGirl4ever
01-30-2011, 02:16 PM
Seeing these 3's go in makes me want to cry!

KandG
01-30-2011, 02:16 PM
So after all that, I love the way Nolan has brought it this half. Even did a really nice job finding Andre for that last 3. Too little too late, but something to build on.

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:17 PM
amazing. just amazing. falling now

Just makes you wonder what would have happened if it started earlier. We could have forced their hand in defense instead of having two minutes from way behind. They can use the clock since it happened late.

SMO
01-30-2011, 02:17 PM
amazing. just amazing. falling now

No pressure and nothing to lose. Or maybe just regression to the mean.

karmacoma
01-30-2011, 02:17 PM
That's for sure. But last year's team was able to compensate with defense and rebounding, which are largely a function of effort. Would be nice to see that be the answer because guys can even be cold shooting 2's. Instead the poor shooting seems to be affecting Duke's D.

Great observation. I can't remember what season, but there was a game several years ago (may have even been during the Battier era) when Coach said when your open looks aren't going down, it can sometimes have an effect on your defense -- gets you on the back of your heels. Maybe some of that at play today, particularly in the first half.

Gotta appreciate the fight in the last 10 minutes.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:17 PM
So after all that, I love the way Nolan has brought it this half. Even did a really nice job finding Andre for that last 3. Too little too late, but something to build on.

almost like a PG

KShip21
01-30-2011, 02:17 PM
Should have fixed the net earlier! It's been down since early 1st half.

uh_no
01-30-2011, 02:18 PM
Gotta appreciate the fight in the last 10 minutes.

This.....

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 02:18 PM
Who is second?

Nolan - 64
Mason - 39
Kyle -34

It's expected for the PG of a team to have the most opportunities for TO's, but with an assist/TO of under 2/1 and the highest TO total of any "PG" in the top 10 (I think, might be wrong) he's got issues at the point.


Agreed, fully. But I don't think it can be argued that our offense without Kyrie is less balanced, and that if the threes don't go down, we're going to have some issues.

Look how much ground we've gained by simply making some 3's. This team is a top 2 team when the 3's are going down and barely a top 20 when they're not. It's ridiculous.

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:18 PM
Should have fixed the net earlier! It's been down since early 1st half.

ah, blaming the net. probably a first

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:19 PM
You're clearly forgetting Larry Drew The Second...

Okay, I concede, I was wrong!:D

MartyClark
01-30-2011, 02:19 PM
and the reason why he's projected to be on the back-end of the 1st round of the draft. if he were a PG, he'd be a lottery pick.

I love Nolan Smith. He shows a great deal of heart and character every game.

With regard to the "Nolan as point guard" argument. It's apparent he is not as suited for the position as Kyrie. I think Nolan's natural position is the #2 guard. As I recall, Nolan didn't play that much point in high school. He'd doing his absolute best but on a different team, he's be playing the 2 guard

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:20 PM
I love Nolan Smith. He shows a great deal of heart and character every game.

With regard to the "Nolan as point guard" argument. It's apparent he is not as suited for the position as Kyrie. I think Nolan's natural position is the #2 guard. As I recall, Nolan didn't play that much point in high school. He'd doing his absolute best but on a different team, he's be playing the 2 guard

on THIS team optimally he'd be playing the 2 guard

Fuqua's Finest
01-30-2011, 02:21 PM
Down double digits and coming off several 3 pointers in a row, what does Kyle Singler proceed to do.....Drive it to the rim and hit nothing but backboard with a floor full of open shooters. Interesting choice by him.

TheRob8801
01-30-2011, 02:22 PM
Down double digits and coming off several 3 pointers in a row, what does Kyle Singler proceed to do.....Drive it to the rim and hit nothing but backboard with a floor full of open shooters. Interesting choice by him.

I'm honestly surprised we got this close to our average. Well done team, thanks for not giving up.

SMO
01-30-2011, 02:23 PM
Meanwhile, Maryland fans are cursing the Johnnies.

slower
01-30-2011, 02:23 PM
Meanwhile, Maryland fans are cursing the Johnnies.

And starting the fire(s).

Gthoma2a
01-30-2011, 02:23 PM
They were the better team today. I applaud their players. That many seniors, and they have just had their moment.

uh_no
01-30-2011, 02:24 PM
They were the better team today.

understatement?

rotogod00
01-30-2011, 02:24 PM
at least the boys played with some fire the last 10 minutes. won the 2nd half by 6

Devilsfan
01-30-2011, 02:24 PM
What D! We held them to under 100 pts. They only could muster up 93 pts. against our strangling full court defense.

KShip21
01-30-2011, 02:24 PM
ah, blaming the net. probably a first

Completely joking, but not sure why they worried about the net with 3 min remaining when it was down all game (sj shot lights out with it down). Just thought it was funny that we start hitting right after.