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gam7
01-25-2011, 03:42 PM
From time to time, Kyrie's toe thread has slipped into discussion and speculation on his NBA draft prospects and whether his injury might bring him back to Duke next year. I received a negative comment for discussing it in the toe thread because it was off-topic, so thought I'd start the thread that you know will make your head spin between now and the deadline for college players to enter their names in the NBA draft. So many factors are at play here for Kyrie.

To kick off this thread, Chad Ford put out a mock draft randomizer that has Kyrie going 1 or 2 in the several scenarios I played out. He projects that some teams would take Perry Jones over Kyrie. http://espn.go.com/nba/lottery2011/mockdraft

Draft Express has Kyrie going #1. http://www.draftexpress.com/

NBADraft.net has Derrick Williams going #1 with Kyrie going #2. http://www.nbadraft.net/

-jk
01-25-2011, 08:29 PM
The mods have decided that - distasteful as it may be - this topic is fair game.

However, if anyone has an issue with the decision of a mod, please report the post with your concerns. Please don't get adversarial on the board. That is the path to the Dark Side.

-jk

MarkD83
01-25-2011, 08:36 PM
I have long ago decided that this type of conversation is irrelevant to any current college basketball season.

Kyrie will or won't play for Duke next year and that is a decision he will make in the offseason. Our speculation on his draft status won't matter in his decision.

All this discussion does is take away from our enjoyment of THIS season. I hope this thread drops to the second page as fast as possible.

superdave
01-25-2011, 09:04 PM
Team and Wins:
8 Cleveland
10 Sacramento
10 Minnesota
13 Washington
13 New Jersey
17 Charlotte
17 Clippers

Hmmm...you'd want to avoid Cleveland and Charlotte, but the rest have substantial building blocks (Cousins/Evans, Love, Wall, Lopez/Favors, Griffin/Gordon).

Either NJ or LA would seem to be the teams that could use an awesome pg to put them over the top. Minnesota already has Flynn and (ahem) Rubio, who they ought to trade for a pick.

superdave
01-25-2011, 09:09 PM
I have long ago decided that this type of conversation is irrelevant to any current college basketball season.

Kyrie will or won't play for Duke next year and that is a decision he will make in the offseason. Our speculation on his draft status won't matter in his decision.

All this discussion does is take away from our enjoyment of THIS season. I hope this thread drops to the second page as fast as possible.

I dont think of this as a way to fret over a teenager's decision, rather as a way to think how some NBA teams might be able to improve. The Clippers could get lucky with a top 5 pick and become a 50 win team next year based on their roster. The NBA off season is often as interesting as the season (ie The Decision, Celtics barely missing Duncan and Durant, Anything David Stern can dream up).

Rich
01-25-2011, 09:27 PM
I'm selfish. I hope the likelihood of a lockout and the thought of teaming up with Austin Rivers keeps Kyrie in Duke Blue. Assuming he doesn't play this season, the idea of having him for only 6 or so games will be very frustrating to me, although I am not oblivious to the notion that I am being selfish for Duke basketball. He seemss like a great kid and I would wish him well in the pros, but I'd love to see him grow up for a full year under Coach K rather than in Cleveland, Sacramento, NJ or wherever.

flyingdutchdevil
01-26-2011, 05:50 AM
Team and Wins:
8 Cleveland
10 Sacramento
10 Minnesota
13 Washington
13 New Jersey
17 Charlotte
17 Clippers

Hmmm...you'd want to avoid Cleveland and Charlotte, but the rest have substantial building blocks (Cousins/Evans, Love, Wall, Lopez/Favors, Griffin/Gordon).

Either NJ or LA would seem to be the teams that could use an awesome pg to put them over the top. Minnesota already has Flynn and (ahem) Rubio, who they ought to trade for a pick.

Nice analysis. Like you said, I really hope that Cleveland or Charlotte avoids KI (if he declares, which I think he won't. But that's just me!). I would hate to see him in Sacramento, as Evans needs the ball in his hands to be successful and Cousins is a potential cancer. Minnesota would be a great place, but their recent string of PGs hasn't worked out (Flynn, Rubio); I would just feel that KI wouldn't be in a conducive environment for PG. Washington won't take a PG for the next 10 years or so.

So, that leaves NJ and LAC. With NJ, Devon Harris is a pretty damn good PG. His career has slid a little lately, but I think that's because he's playing with the Nets. Adding a player like Kyrie could motivate Harris back to potential All-Star status. With Clippers, they have a borderline PG All-Star as well, although he is getting really old. Plus, they drafted Bledsoe, who is vastly inferior to KI as a PG and is more of a combo guard. KI with the Clippers would be awesome as Griffin, KI, and Gordon would form an absolutely sick foundation.

But I digress. Here's to KI making the best decision come April and hopefully, for a few selfish reasons, pairing up with AR next year!

PADukeMom
01-26-2011, 08:44 AM
While I would love nothing more than to see Kyrie & Austin Rivers play together next year I will only have best luck for Kyrie in whatever decision he makes.

BD80
01-26-2011, 08:51 AM
If Kyrie is considered the best player available and the cadavaliers are licking their chops with the first pick, that alone could convince KI to return!

COYS
01-26-2011, 09:21 AM
If Kyrie is considered the best player available and the cadavaliers are licking their chops with the first pick, that alone could convince KI to return!

If he's THAT scared of going to the Cavs, we may have him for 4 years =). I don't see the Cavs improving much in the near future.

elvis14
01-26-2011, 09:26 AM
If Kyrie is considered the best player available and the cadavaliers are licking their chops with the first pick, that alone could convince KI to return!

That's what I was thinking. If Kyrie is on the fence, the prospect of going to Cleveland could keep him at Duke for another year.

UrinalCake
01-26-2011, 09:29 AM
"Cadavaliers"? I really hope that wasn't a typo, because that is awesome.

Barring a trade, it's almost a guarantee that a top pick is going to go to a crappy team. There's not really any way around it. I have to say I'm a little surprised guys like Kemba Walker and Jared Sullinger aren't in the discussion for being the top pick.

Wow, I just ran the draft simulator and it has Harrison Barnes going #5 to the Nets. Really? That Russian billionaire owner must be drinking some serious vodka. I'd like to get my hands on some of that 8-)

RoyalBlue08
01-26-2011, 09:33 AM
"Cadavaliers"? I really hope that wasn't a typo, because that is awesome.

Barring a trade, it's almost a guarantee that a top pick is going to go to a crappy team. There's not really any way around it. I have to say I'm a little surprised guys like Kemba Walker and Jared Sullinger aren't in the discussion for being the top pick.

Wow, I just ran the draft simulator and it has Harrison Barnes going #5 to the Nets. Really? That Russian billionaire owner must be drinking some serious vodka. I'd like to get my hands on some of that 8-)

Yes, Ford has Barnes and Henson as top 10 picks. I guess how well you play in high school is more important than how well you play in college.

JasonEvans
01-26-2011, 09:39 AM
If he's THAT scared of going to the Cavs, we may have him for 4 years =). I don't see the Cavs improving much in the near future.


"I personally guarantee that the Cleveland Cavaliers will win an NBA Championship before the self-titled former 'king' wins one."

You can take it to the bank.


-Dan Gilbert, Cavs Owner (http://www.cleveland.com/cavs/index.ssf/2010/07/gilberts_letter_to_fans_james.html)

-Jason "The lottery makes trying to figure out which team will draft where nearly impossible" Evans

flyingdutchdevil
01-26-2011, 09:40 AM
Yes, Ford has Barnes and Henson as top 10 picks. I guess how well you play in high school is more important than how well you play in college.

I'm sure Henson is hoping to get drafted by the Knicks. Then he can finally get advice from Ed Curry about how to gain weight.

brlftz
01-26-2011, 09:53 AM
I have long ago decided that this type of conversation is irrelevant to any current college basketball season.

Kyrie will or won't play for Duke next year and that is a decision he will make in the offseason. Our speculation on his draft status won't matter in his decision.

All this discussion does is take away from our enjoyment of THIS season. I hope this thread drops to the second page as fast as possible.

or, you could exercise your right to ignore it. for me, however, this doesn't detract from my enjoyment of the current season, and this topic is something i'll be curious about regardless of whether or not there's a thread about it. i'd prefer to track the discussion here than at IC.

also, i don't like it when people suggest we not discuss something because our speculation won't change anything/we don't know as much as coach k, etc. doesn't that pretty much apply to ANYTHING that gets discussed here? people discuss because it's interesting to them, not because they think they'll have an effect on anything.

ElSid
01-26-2011, 10:12 AM
I think this thread is interesting. I realize it has no bearing on Kyrie's decision. But there are some really fun things to think about. And I don't see why it would detract from our enjoyment of the season. I'd be really happy for Kyrie if he went pro. I'd be thrilled for us as fans if he can back. Don't think the subject needs to be so taboo. Anyway...

One interesting scenario. Imagine Kyrie and Austin playing on the same team next year, then going pro at the same time, and possibly becoming the first ever #1 and #2 combo? (Is that even true? Have there ever been #1 and #2 picks from the same team? Kentucky was pretty close last year).

I think it's interesting that Kyrie only had to play 8 games in college to be considered a top 2 pick at this point. I think if the silly NCAA rules didn't exist, he probably would have been a lottery pick right out of high school, regardless, if that's what he wanted.

It's a testament to Irving's unique talent that he's projected to go ahead of guys like Sullinger that are absolutely killing it this year.

I'm frustrated that the decision on a lockout will come after kids will have had to decide whether they're entering the draft. And that time was moved up even further this year. Not sure why that happened.

Hope Kyrie comes back. If he doesn't, hope he truly goes #1.

Chitowndevil
01-26-2011, 10:54 AM
Yes, Ford has Barnes and Henson as top 10 picks. I guess how well you play in high school is more important than how well you play in college.

You know, I really wonder about this. Shouldn't it be? Twenty years ago many high-D1 prospects never played with or against similarly talented players before arriving on campus. These days, the top high school players go to prep schools where they are playing against other teams with multiple high-D1 prospects. They play AAU ball against the same or maybe higher quality competition. They attend summer camps with NBA players looking on or even participating. All of this is continually evaluated by coaches and scouts. That's a lot of data, arguably much more informative than a single college season.

Starter
01-26-2011, 11:34 AM
I'm sure Henson is hoping to get drafted by the Knicks. Then he can finally get advice from Ed Curry about how to gain weight.

No dice. Eddy's thousand-year contract runs out after this season. He'd have to take advice from Amar'e Stoudemire. Except for the fact that I doubt the Knicks would pick Henson, as the last skinny, athletic project with more potential than production they picked up -- Anthony Randolph -- is buried down with Curry on the bench.


It's a testament to Irving's unique talent that he's projected to go ahead of guys like Sullinger that are absolutely killing it this year.

Those eight games proved he was too good for the college level, though. He didn't just look like a great college player, he looked like a pro player playing in college. I know Nets fans who would be ecstatic to have Kyrie, a blue-chip talent and hometown guy -- at least until (or unless) they move to Brooklyn -- to build around along with Favors and Brook Lopez. It's a perfect fit.

Of course, so is Duke, with Austin Rivers. If Kyrie's really enjoying himself, and it appears that he is, we might get him back. I certainly wouldn't rule it out. But I think his father would have something to say about this whole situation, and I suspect he would want him to go.

UrinalCake
01-26-2011, 11:55 AM
Since we're talking about the draft, here's random thought that came to mind. Let's say that as we approach the deadline for kids to declare for the draft, the general public consensus is that there will be a lockout and the NBA season will probably be canceled. So a bunch of college kids decide to stay in school. Then, during the lost year a new collective bargaining agreement is reached in which the one-year rule is revoked (there are rumors that the current NBA players will push for this). If that happened, then the 2012 draft would include kids from three classes - college sophomores who stayed an extra year, college freshmen, and the graduating high school seniors. Not to mention any international guys who came up across two years. Wouldn't that be weird? And how many of the college kids would then decide to stay an additional year in order to avoid a crowded draft?

BD80
01-26-2011, 11:58 AM
"Cadavaliers"? I really hope that wasn't a typo, because that is awesome. ...

It was a common knickname for the team pre-Lebron. There was a good reason they were picking #1 that year.

BD80
01-26-2011, 12:05 PM
... a new collective bargaining agreement is reached in which the one-year rule is revoked (there are rumors that the current NBA players will push for this). ...

Are the players really that stupid? I can see it as a bargaining ploy (agreeing to keep the rule in exchange for a concession by the owners), but why would the union push for a provision that would cost current players their jobs? "Projects" out of highschool will take up a roster spots.

MChambers
01-26-2011, 12:09 PM
Are the players really that stupid? I can see it as a bargaining ploy (agreeing to keep the rule in exchange for a concession by the owners), but why would the union push for a provision that would cost current players their jobs? "Projects" out of highschool will take up a roster spots.

For some reason, the union has always opposed an age limit. Your reasoning seems sensible to me, but the union has never acted rationally on this.

UrinalCake
01-26-2011, 12:14 PM
For some reason, the union has always opposed an age limit. Your reasoning seems sensible to me, but the union has never acted rationally on this.

I think they feel like the age restriction is a violation of their rights. Even the rule benefits the current players, they're philosophically opposed to the league mandating what players are allowed to do.

Indoor66
01-26-2011, 12:34 PM
I think they feel like the age restriction is a violation of their rights. Even the rule benefits the current players, they're philosophically opposed to the league mandating what players are allowed to do.

Nose meet face.

moonpie23
01-26-2011, 12:45 PM
Wow, I just ran the draft simulator and it has Harrison Barnes going #5 to the Nets. Really?

YES!!!! HWNSNBM ** IS ** A top 5 pick.....he should go....really !! henson too...they are ready for the nba.....the nba needs them......go!!

wilson
01-26-2011, 01:01 PM
"Cadavaliers"? I really hope that wasn't a typo, because that is awesome.

It was a common knickname for the team pre-Lebron. There was a good reason they were picking #1 that year.It also now appears that LeBron was totally right to "take his talents to South Beach." To me, the putridity displayed by the non-LeBron leftovers this season merely bears out the contention that Cleveland's front office did precious little to improve the team around LeBron during his tenure there. I recognize that Ilgauskas and one or two others departed at the same time as LeBron, but it seems clear by now that the franchise was, for six years, LeBron + bargain-bin parts. All the more reason to hope Kyrie doesn't end up in Cleveland, with what looks to be a pretty inept front office.

gam7
01-26-2011, 01:19 PM
That's what I was thinking. If Kyrie is on the fence, the prospect of going to Cleveland could keep him at Duke for another year.

Chad Ford and NBAdraft.net project the Cavs picking a forward (Chad Ford says Perry Jones; NBAdraft.net projects Derrick Williams) if they have the first pick. Seems as though insiders may have knowledge that the Cavs' top priority for the draft is a forward even if Kyrie is in the draft.

TampaDuke
01-26-2011, 01:32 PM
Are the players really that stupid? I can see it as a bargaining ploy (agreeing to keep the rule in exchange for a concession by the owners), but why would the union push for a provision that would cost current players their jobs? "Projects" out of highschool will take up a roster spots.

Since a good number of current NBA players either jumped to the NBA right out of high school or were one and done players in college (when they wanted to jump right to the NBA), I could see a sizable contingent favoring abolishing the rule. Besides, for the players to think of the issue from the perspective you posit, they'd have to tacitly admit that they could be beaten out for a job by an up and coming high school player. While that is no doubt a fact for many players, it is a fact that many of those same players would never admit, even to themselves.

Regardless, I'd be somewhat surprised if the age rule were abolished completely, even if only due to the inertia which always appears to make it more difficult to abolish an existing provision through the collective bargaining process.

Starter
01-26-2011, 01:34 PM
Chad Ford and NBAdraft.net project the Cavs picking a forward (Chad Ford says Perry Jones; NBAdraft.net projects Derrick Williams) if they have the first pick. Seems as though insiders may have knowledge that the Cavs' top priority for the draft is a forward even if Kyrie is in the draft.

I'm hardly a guru though I follow the NBA and the draft closely, but I'd say those are just guesses -- educated and qualified ones, but guesses all the same. They need everything (http://hoopshype.com/salaries/cleveland.htm). It's not like you can say, "Well, they're covered at point guard with Mo Williams." Besides, the only players signed past 2013 are Varejao and Eyenga on his rookie deal. You'd have to assume they're going to try to retain Hickson.

Past that, if I'm the Cavs -- knowing that no premier free agent in the universe would want to sign there right now -- I'd want to try to take the player I'd be most certain would be a franchise talent. That may be Kyrie; it may be the other two. Me? I'd pick Kyrie, I think he's about as sure a bet as there is, though I LOVE Perry Jones' game.

And the lockout is such an interesting part of this. Nobody really knows how that'll affect anything, one way or another. It could keep guys in college, or it could cause them to attempt to lock themselves in on a higher rookie salary scale assuming salaries are going to go down across the board. We'll just have to see, but it looks like we WILL see.

InSpades
01-26-2011, 01:40 PM
As other have pointed out... Kyrie will need to make his decision well before it is decided who has which pick. Additionally it is very difficult to predict who will have the top picks. The worst team in the league has only a 25% chance to get the #1 pick.

I find the math of the NBA lottery somewhat interesting. I especially liked the "outcry" when it was revealed that the worst team is more likely to get the #4 pick than any other pick (due solely to the fact that they can't get any lower than the #4 pick).

Starter
01-26-2011, 06:33 PM
Something I was just thinking about -- I think the 2005 draft has affected teams' mentalities, and rightfully so. Bogut went first, as a potentially dominant center almost always will, but then the Hawks took the potential and relative size of Marvin Williams over both Deron Williams and Chris Paul, two point guards viewed to be money in the bank. That was a huge mistake, as with either player, Atlanta would be a legitimate NBA title contender by now, considering the strong picks they made for Horford and Josh Smith and the Joe Johnson trade.

The two best point guard prospects since then, Derrick Rose and John Wall, both went No. 1. Rose went first over Michael Beasley, obviously the right move. It probably depends on if Wall's knee holds up, whether Cousins goes fully insane and how Favors develops, but Wall over Cousins and Favors (and Evan Turner) seems like the right move too.

Kdogg
01-26-2011, 08:44 PM
For some reason, the union has always opposed an age limit. Your reasoning seems sensible to me, but the union has never acted rationally on this.

Because management wants it, the union is apposed. That's the only real reason. The rule preserves veterans' jobs. Without it a bunch of kids are going to come in and take roster spots.

Duke: A Dynasty
01-26-2011, 09:31 PM
I know I am in the minority here but I really believe Kyrie will come back for one more year at Duke. No real proof as to why its just a feeling I got.

If he does go pro I want to see him with the Clippers with Blake Griffen. Just Imagine that combo for the next 10 to 12 years. Other than that the Nets are cool with me and for his future I would not want him in Charlotte but im greedy and want to see him more so Charlotte is ok as a 3rd option. I will cry if he goes to Cleveland, I don't think they would get him anyway cause I think they are looking for a forward to replace Lebron (They secretly want Lebron and are gonna draft a forward to be the new Lebron)(Previous parenthesis was a conspiracy btw but maybe partially true).

O and on a side not I am so glad this thread got opened back up.

jv001
01-26-2011, 09:37 PM
I know I am in the minority here but I really believe Kyrie will come back for one more year at Duke. No real proof as to why its just a feeling I got.

If he does go pro I want to see him with the Clippers with Blake Griffen. Just Imagine that combo for the next 10 to 12 years. Other than that the Nets are cool with me and for his future I would not want him in Charlotte but im greedy and want to see him more so Charlotte is ok as a 3rd option. I will cry if he goes to Cleveland, I don't think they would get him anyway cause I think they are looking for a forward to replace Lebron (They secretly want Lebron and are gonna draft a forward to be the new Lebron)(Previous parenthesis was a conspiracy btw but maybe partially true).

O and on a side not I am so glad this thread got opened back up.

If Kyrie, Kyle or Nolan get's drafted by the Bobcats, then I will root for them. That's the only way I will ever root for anything/any team associated with michael jordan Go Duke!

Duke: A Dynasty
01-26-2011, 09:51 PM
If Kyrie, Kyle or Nolan get's drafted by the Bobcats, then I will root for them. That's the only way I will ever root for anything/any team associated with michael jordan Go Duke!

Why not root for them now? They got Henderson, anyway I would love to see the Bobcats succeed.

ice-9
01-27-2011, 03:36 AM
It also now appears that LeBron was totally right to "take his talents to South Beach." To me, the putridity displayed by the non-LeBron leftovers this season merely bears out the contention that Cleveland's front office did precious little to improve the team around LeBron during his tenure there. I recognize that Ilgauskas and one or two others departed at the same time as LeBron, but it seems clear by now that the franchise was, for six years, LeBron + bargain-bin parts. All the more reason to hope Kyrie doesn't end up in Cleveland, with what looks to be a pretty inept front office.

I don't know if that's fair. My guess is Cavs management tried to build a team around LeBron that suited Lebron. Strong defenders, shooters, screeners, mobile post players (Shaq aside) -- mostly ultimate role players to surround one mega superstar. Take that superstar out of the equation and you're left with ineffective role players (i.e. what they have now), but that should be no surprise.

But as a unit, with LeBron + role players, the Cavs were very good. Good enough to be the top seed in LeBron's last two years; certainly good enough to have a chance at winning the NBA championship.

jammsb
01-27-2011, 04:00 AM
Forgive me if this has been answered, but what happens to the kids who declare, are drafted and then a lockout ensues? Is Europe their only option? Would the NCAA make an exception to allow them back? Probably not.
As to where Kyrie goes - Theoretically having Kyrie and Blake Griffin is a dream combination, especially with a few other good players to back them up. However, never underestimate Donald Sterling's ability to screw up anything.

UrinalCake
01-27-2011, 09:24 AM
Forgive me if this has been answered, but what happens to the kids who declare, are drafted and then a lockout ensues?

I would assume that Europe is their only option, though I do wonder what would happen if a player went through the entire draft process without hiring an agent. There used to be a rule that if you declared and then went undrafted, you could return to school as long as you didn't hire an agent. I'm not sure if that's still the case. But if you declared without an agent, got drafted, and then there was a lockout, then technically you haven't accepted any money yet so why shouldn't you still have your amateur status?

yancem
01-27-2011, 01:16 PM
I would assume that Europe is their only option, though I do wonder what would happen if a player went through the entire draft process without hiring an agent. There used to be a rule that if you declared and then went undrafted, you could return to school as long as you didn't hire an agent. I'm not sure if that's still the case. But if you declared without an agent, got drafted, and then there was a lockout, then technically you haven't accepted any money yet so why shouldn't you still have your amateur status?

My understanding is that there is a decent chance that a lockout won't come into effect until after the draft. I'm not sure when the CBO officially ends but I'm pretty sure that the owners won't institute the lockout until the summer camps come around.

johnb
01-27-2011, 02:52 PM
I seem to recall that when Danny Ferry (or was it Grant Hill) came back for his senior year, he took out an insurance policy that would have paid him a significant amount if he got injured at Duke. If that's true, I can imagine someone like Kyrie getting an insurance policy structured so that a serious injury would lead to a, say, $5 million payout and no premium paid, but that if he isn't injured, he pays the presumably significant premium out of his first contract.

To answer my own question, a 1 minute googlesearch yielded this from cougarblue.com, a BYU website that, oddly enough, I don't frequent. Link: http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/basketball/article_a21c27a2-e5f1-11df-b80e-001cc4c002e0.html

"Fredette qualified for an NCAA-sanctioned insurance policy. In the event of a catastrophic injury that keeps him from ever playing again -- that's the only way this thing pays out -- he'll be guaranteed a check in the low seven figures.

The NCAA has been proactive at making these policies possible. The Fredettes don't even have to pay the premium until after Fredette is officially a professional (this keeps potential "sharks" away from footing the bill, and making players hostage to agents that may have future connections in mind).

Having his decision come down to the last available day in May, Fredette said he wasn't even aware of the NCAA policies until after he decided to come back. Rice said he couldn't remember the time frame it was discussed with the player and his family, but said coaches knew it would be a good idea to look into it.

Fredette is the first athlete at BYU in basketball or football to have qualified.

Not everyone is eligible. It's for older, elite players who have already shown the potential to be a high draft pick. In this case, the Cougar star was approximated to be a late first-round selection.

In this summer's NBA draft, the final pick of the first round is slated under the league's sliding scale to make about $850,000.

"That's not going to be an issue, but it's good to have something to fall back on," Fredette said."


That back-up would make my decision easier--it wouldn't replace the total amopunt of an NBA contract, but it'd be enough to be a life changer....

cato
01-27-2011, 03:08 PM
I seem to recall that when Danny Ferry (or was it Grant Hill) came back for his senior year, he took out an insurance policy that would have paid him a significant amount if he got injured at Duke. If that's true, I can imagine someone like Kyrie getting an insurance policy structured so that a serious injury would lead to a, say, $5 million payout and no premium paid, but that if he isn't injured, he pays the presumably significant premium out of his first contract.

To answer my own question, a 1 minute googlesearch yielded this from cougarblue.com, a BYU website that, oddly enough, I don't frequent. Link: http://www.heraldextra.com/sports/college/byu/basketball/article_a21c27a2-e5f1-11df-b80e-001cc4c002e0.html

"Fredette qualified for an NCAA-sanctioned insurance policy. In the event of a catastrophic injury that keeps him from ever playing again -- that's the only way this thing pays out -- he'll be guaranteed a check in the low seven figures.

The NCAA has been proactive at making these policies possible. The Fredettes don't even have to pay the premium until after Fredette is officially a professional (this keeps potential "sharks" away from footing the bill, and making players hostage to agents that may have future connections in mind).

Having his decision come down to the last available day in May, Fredette said he wasn't even aware of the NCAA policies until after he decided to come back. Rice said he couldn't remember the time frame it was discussed with the player and his family, but said coaches knew it would be a good idea to look into it.

Fredette is the first athlete at BYU in basketball or football to have qualified.

Not everyone is eligible. It's for older, elite players who have already shown the potential to be a high draft pick. In this case, the Cougar star was approximated to be a late first-round selection.

In this summer's NBA draft, the final pick of the first round is slated under the league's sliding scale to make about $850,000.

"That's not going to be an issue, but it's good to have something to fall back on," Fredette said."


That back-up would make my decision easier--it wouldn't replace the total amopunt of an NBA contract, but it'd be enough to be a life changer....

That's interesting. I wonder if the payout is tied to expected draft position? Low seven figures in your early 20s is not that much money (spread out over your lifetime), and I'd want to know more about the coverage. Take Jason Williams, for example. Did he every play in the D-league during any of his comeback attempts? Assuming that his attempts would not disqualify him from coverage, would the self-inflicted nature of his accident?

superdave
01-27-2011, 03:50 PM
Something I was just thinking about -- I think the 2005 draft has affected teams' mentalities, and rightfully so. Bogut went first, as a potentially dominant center almost always will, but then the Hawks took the potential and relative size of Marvin Williams over both Deron Williams and Chris Paul, two point guards viewed to be money in the bank. That was a huge mistake, as with either player, Atlanta would be a legitimate NBA title contender by now, considering the strong picks they made for Horford and Josh Smith and the Joe Johnson trade.

The two best point guard prospects since then, Derrick Rose and John Wall, both went No. 1. Rose went first over Michael Beasley, obviously the right move. It probably depends on if Wall's knee holds up, whether Cousins goes fully insane and how Favors develops, but Wall over Cousins and Favors (and Evan Turner) seems like the right move too.

Great comment. The NBA is a PG's game now because there's so few competent PF's and C's. So many of the big men are so raw and have few moves outside of the ability to jump. But a great PG can get any athletic big man an easy bucket. So PGs are at a premium.

I remember a few years ago - 2006ish - the best PG's were Nash (Canada), Parker (France) and Kidd (18th century). Now we have Rose as the odds-on favorite for NBA MVP this year to go with Rondo, Westbrook, Paul, Williams and Wall. A lot of people see Kyrie joining that group someday. I certainly hope so. The American PG is back and it's great for the league.

Duke Parent 06
01-27-2011, 04:05 PM
That's interesting. I wonder if the payout is tied to expected draft position? Low seven figures in your early 20s is not that much money (spread out over your lifetime), and I'd want to know more about the coverage. Take Jason Williams, for example. Did he every play in the D-league during any of his comeback attempts? Assuming that his attempts would not disqualify him from coverage, would the self-inflicted nature of his accident?

I believe the Bulls paid Williams a substantial amount ($1 or 2 million?) of his rookie contract anyway, notwithstanding a provision in it that he would forfeit the pay if he was injured engaging in certain forbidden activities, among which was motorcycle riding. Am I correct on this?

wilson
01-27-2011, 04:07 PM
I believe the Bulls paid Williams a substantial amount ($1 or 2 million?) of his rookie contract anyway, notwithstanding a provision in it that he would forfeit the pay if he was injured engaging in certain forbidden activities, among which was motorcycle riding. Am I correct on this?You are correct. The Bulls bought him out for $3 million. Jason should consider himself very lucky on that front (as I'm sure he does).
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/bulls/2004-02-02-williams-buyout_x.htm

cato
01-27-2011, 04:11 PM
You are correct. The Bulls bought him out for $3 million. Jason should consider himself very lucky on that front (as I'm sure he does).
http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketball/nba/bulls/2004-02-02-williams-buyout_x.htm

Yes. But the Bulls have different incentives than an insurance company. They have to please fans, and sign new players.

I am highly skeptical that an insurance company would pay out on a claim if it were not required to do so. After all, it does not have fans, and does not rely on good will to sign players.

Krzyzewskiville
03-11-2011, 07:48 PM
I'm reading the "FIVE-POINT PLAY" Duke's journey to the 2001 National Championship book. Which btw, is a very good book so far.
Anyways, I was intrigued when I read that during Jay Williams Sophomore season he announced after one of there games later in ACC play, he will be playing for Duke next year and not get drafted. Do you think if Kyrie is going to stay he will announce this during one of the upcoming games?

tommy
03-15-2011, 11:17 AM
Heard Bill Simmons podcast yesterday with Chad Ford, ESPN's NBA draft guy. About an hour long, so they had an opportunity to talk at length about a lot of draft prospects.

They talked for awhile about Kyrie, and Ford was pretty strong in his opinion that Kyrie will not be a player on the level of Chris Paul, Deron Williams, John Wall, or Rajon Rondo. They think he will definitely be an NBA starter, but not a drop-dead star. They ended up agreeing that his ceiling would be as a "poor man's Chris Paul."

They also both agreed that Kyrie would benefit greatly from another year at Duke.

I think Kyrie's ceiling is much higher than they apparently do, and I'm not sure why they would limit his ceiling based on watching him in 8 games max, but thought it was interesting nonetheless.

uh_no
03-15-2011, 11:36 AM
Heard Bill Simmons podcast yesterday with Chad Ford, ESPN's NBA draft guy. About an hour long, so they had an opportunity to talk at length about a lot of draft prospects.

They talked for awhile about Kyrie, and Ford was pretty strong in his opinion that Kyrie will not be a player on the level of Chris Paul, Deron Williams, John Wall, or Rajon Rondo. They think he will definitely be an NBA starter, but not a drop-dead star. They ended up agreeing that his ceiling would be as a "poor man's Chris Paul."

They also both agreed that Kyrie would benefit greatly from another year at Duke.

I think Kyrie's ceiling is much higher than they apparently do, and I'm not sure why they would limit his ceiling based on watching him in 8 games max, but thought it was interesting nonetheless.

out of sight, out of mind.....i think the media has somewhat forgotten how good he is....that said, its just so immensely hard to judge a player with just 8 games 3 months ago....its just unknown...sort of like 'how good is sdsu' we don't know because its pretty untested

rotogod00
03-15-2011, 11:38 AM
Heard Bill Simmons podcast yesterday with Chad Ford, ESPN's NBA draft guy. About an hour long, so they had an opportunity to talk at length about a lot of draft prospects.

They talked for awhile about Kyrie, and Ford was pretty strong in his opinion that Kyrie will not be a player on the level of Chris Paul, Deron Williams, John Wall, or Rajon Rondo. They think he will definitely be an NBA starter, but not a drop-dead star. They ended up agreeing that his ceiling would be as a "poor man's Chris Paul."

They also both agreed that Kyrie would benefit greatly from another year at Duke.

I think Kyrie's ceiling is much higher than they apparently do, and I'm not sure why they would limit his ceiling based on watching him in 8 games max, but thought it was interesting nonetheless.

It's due to the fact that according to ESPN, he's "not an elite athlete" (although neither is Williams).

flyingdutchdevil
03-15-2011, 11:47 AM
It's due to the fact that according to ESPN, he's "not an elite athlete" (although neither is Williams).

Neither is Paul. No one knows KI's ceiling (or basement, for that matter). I think a poor man's Paul is actually a complement, considering how good Paul is when healthy. KI will be good and will get drafted high, but top 5 picks aren't always considered superstars (Marvin Williams, OJ Mayo, Michael Beasley are all good, not great).

IMO, KI will be a top 5 PG sometime during his NBA career, but he won't surpass Rose, Paul, or Williams. Those three are just incredible and unique.

That said, I hope KI proves me wrong.

Kedsy
03-15-2011, 12:07 PM
IMO, KI will be a top 5 PG sometime during his NBA career, but he won't surpass Rose, Paul, or Williams. Those three are just incredible and unique.

I know it's not the only stat that matters (and some would argue it's not a stat that matters at all), but here's how Kyrie stacks up with Paul, Williams, and Rose in assist/turnover ratio, while in college (and just for the heck of it, I threw in John Wall, too):

CP: 2.2, 2.4
DW: 2.5, 2.5, 2.4
DR: 1.9
JW: 1.6
KI: 1.9

My guess is this number would improve for Kyrie if he came back for another year (which I do not expect him to do) and may have even improved if he'd played the full year this year. But this comparison also confirms my personal belief about where he'll probably end up in the pantheon of PGs: behind Paul and Williams, and about the same as Rose and Wall. Although I get that if I were truly consistent, I'd have to place him ahead of Wall, and I think that's possible, although impossible to say with any certainty at this juncture.

FWIW, applying my own personal "eye test," from what I remember of seeing them all play in college, I would rate Paul the best of the five, with Williams, Rose, Wall, and Kyrie more or less equivalent to each other, with the hardest to gauge being Williams, who took care of the ball better than Rose, Wall, or Kyrie, but didn't seem as explosive as the other three.

moonpie23
03-15-2011, 12:29 PM
they will draft him high and point to the 8 games as confirmation of their decision, however, it will be partially driven by the fear of another team getting him...

mr. synellinden
03-15-2011, 12:38 PM
out of sight, out of mind.....i think the media has somewhat forgotten how good he is....that said, its just so immensely hard to judge a player with just 8 games 3 months ago....its just unknown...sort of like 'how good is sdsu' we don't know because its pretty untested

Imagine if the draft were after Barnes' first 8 games. He might have gone undrafted.

I disagree with the idea that Irving is not an elite athlete. He may not have the same raw athleticism as Rose or Wall, but neither does Paul or Williams. I think he is a better passer than either Rose or Wall. When I watched Irving for those 8 games, I thought the best comparison was Isiah Thomas. He has the best ability to get to the basket and finish with either hand that I've seen since Thomas. I also think Rod Strickland is a good comparison

superdave
03-15-2011, 01:55 PM
Paul was probably a little more explosive a leaper and quicker than Kyrie when he was healthy. Now that his knee is bone on bone, that's no longer true or it's no longer a big difference.

I'd be careful discounting Deron Williams' athleticism though. He's built like a fullback and can barrel into the lane with the best of them. Guys bounce off him.

Rose and Wall are just freak athletes though. Either of those guys could step onto a football field and excel too. Wall probably could have been the enxt Randy Moss with that height and leaping ability.

Duke: A Dynasty
03-21-2011, 01:13 AM
ESPN Insider article talking about players possibly going pro. Kyrie and Mason are both mentioned.

"A few other players to keep an eye on include Duke's Kyrie Irving and Mason Plumlee. Sources say that both players are seriously considering making a leap for the NBA. Two sources said that Irving was "gone," and those same sources said Plumlee is leaning toward declaring -- in part so that his two brothers, Miles and incoming freshman Marshall, can have a chance to play."

One player who may decide to stay in school is North Carolina's Harrison Barnes. Despite Barnes' terrific play of late, one source close to Barnes told me he'd really like to win an NCAA championship for the Tar Heels. "He's the sort of guy who cares about more than just going to the NBA," the source said. "He wants to leave his mark."




http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog?name=nba_draft&id=6240021

uh_no
03-21-2011, 01:19 AM
ESPN Insider article talking about players possibly going pro. Kyrie and Mason are both mentioned.

"A few other players to keep an eye on include Duke's Kyrie Irving and Mason Plumlee. Sources say that both players are seriously considering making a leap for the NBA. Two sources said that Irving was "gone," and those same sources said Plumlee is leaning toward declaring -- in part so that his two brothers, Miles and incoming freshman Marshall, can have a chance to play."

One player who may decide to stay in school is North Carolina's Harrison Barnes. Despite Barnes' terrific play of late, one source close to Barnes told me he'd really like to win an NCAA championship for the Tar Heels. "He's the sort of guy who cares about more than just going to the NBA," the source said. "He wants to leave his mark."




http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog?name=nba_draft&id=6240021

meh...everybody is staying until the time to declare

dukelifer
03-21-2011, 06:17 AM
ESPN Insider article talking about players possibly going pro. Kyrie and Mason are both mentioned.

"A few other players to keep an eye on include Duke's Kyrie Irving and Mason Plumlee. Sources say that both players are seriously considering making a leap for the NBA. Two sources said that Irving was "gone," and those same sources said Plumlee is leaning toward declaring -- in part so that his two brothers, Miles and incoming freshman Marshall, can have a chance to play."

One player who may decide to stay in school is North Carolina's Harrison Barnes. Despite Barnes' terrific play of late, one source close to Barnes told me he'd really like to win an NCAA championship for the Tar Heels. "He's the sort of guy who cares about more than just going to the NBA," the source said. "He wants to leave his mark."




http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/blog?name=nba_draft&id=6240021

First, this is not the time to worry about this. Second, has Harrison Barnes given up this year? They have as good a chance to win the NC as anyone. And Mason has no interest being with his younger brother on campus showing him the ropes? This "insider" seems to be someone trying to stir things up.

moonpie23
03-21-2011, 07:10 AM
sounds suspiciously like a tarhole wrote that.....OR was the inside source...

wilko
03-21-2011, 07:28 AM
sounds suspiciously like a tarhole wrote that.....OR was the inside source...

'Holes *should* be worrying over their own $%^& team....

Deflection. If "Big ears" or "Chopsticks" goes Pro ... then they got SERIOUS issues. HB IS prolly the best of the bunch to make an NBA impact. However with his track record of being a contrarian, I'd be more worried if he absolutely said "I'm gone"...

I'd be surprised if Kyrie stayed.... I want him to. I'd be disappointed no matter how the season plays out from here.. I was hoping that he could be our "Magic Johnson" a terrific Duke ambassador with a 100megawatt smile that you simply cant find a reason to dislike...

BUT thats fantasy and wishful thinking. I wouldn't blame him or take it personal if he left, but I ain't gonna help him pack. ;-)

shoutingncu
03-26-2011, 12:57 AM
Haven't read through all of the post-game, so apologies if this is posted there.

Yahoo Interview (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Duke-8217-s-Kyrie-Irving-says-he-8217-s-undeci?urn=ncaab-wp1174) re: Irving.

AlaskanAssassin
03-26-2011, 01:01 AM
this is huge for Ohio State:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6260339

I know most people change their minds, but he seems real and true to his word.

HB seems like this as well. No championship, no NBA.

Let's hope our own KI is like this!

DukeCrow
03-26-2011, 02:02 AM
this is huge for Ohio State:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6260339

I know most people change their minds, but he seems real and true to his word.

HB seems like this as well. No championship, no NBA.

Let's hope our own KI is like this!

I would definitely believe him. Anyone in Columbus will tell you that Sullinger has been saying he'll be staying at least 2 yrs since he got there. And a month or two ago, his dad confirmed this by saying that Jared will only leave tOSU after he either wins a Nat Championship or graduates. The real surprise for tOSU fans would be if he decided to leave.

bjornolf
03-26-2011, 05:25 AM
Of course, Kyrie said he wouldn't leave without a championship either. Not that I blame him if he does. I'd just love to have him back.

I think we could have see a plethora of talent in college basketball next season the likes of which we haven't seen in over a decade. With everyone worrying about a possible strike/lockout over the CBA in the NBA, some underclassmen will undoubtedly decide to avoid the fray all together and enjoy another year of college, rather than risk the possibility of being drafted and then having to sit and worry for months as the powers that be work out how to split the money, kind of like the NFL is looking at now. I certainly hope this is the case. It would make for some awesome basketball next season. I, for one, hope that Kyrie and Mason both see it that way and stick around.

em0526
03-26-2011, 07:44 AM
Hypothetically - could Kyrie retain his eligibility he if declared for the draft and got drafted without retaining an agent? If that was possible - he could wait for the decision on the lock-out before deciding whether or not to forego his sophomore season.

kong123
03-26-2011, 07:48 AM
Hypothetically - could Kyrie retain his eligibility he if declared for the draft and got drafted without retaining an agent? If that was possible - he could wait for the decision on the lock-out before deciding whether or not to forego his sophomore season.

no, can't do that anymore.

yancem
03-26-2011, 09:57 AM
this is huge for Ohio State:

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=6260339

I know most people change their minds, but he seems real and true to his word.

HB seems like this as well. No championship, no NBA.

Let's hope our own KI is like this!

I'm not sure about HB. I don't think that there is any reasonable way that at the beginning of the season he could have thought the UNC would win the title this year yet most considered him a 1 and done. He does seem to have tried to portray himself in this light but he has never really come across to me as overly genuine. That's not to say that he won't stay, I do believe that education is important to him and he probably is enjoying being a college player. But during his recruitment, I really got the vibe that the nba was his most coveted goal and with how he has finished the season, I'm finding it harder to see him sticking around.

superdave
03-26-2011, 12:25 PM
Hypothetically - could Kyrie retain his eligibility he if declared for the draft and got drafted without retaining an agent? If that was possible - he could wait for the decision on the lock-out before deciding whether or not to forego his sophomore season.


no, can't do that anymore.

This is something that needs to be addressed before the declaration and draft dates considering the lockout. If the Ncaa cannot find it within their sweet little hearts to adapt, it deserves to die as an organization.

Atlanta Duke
03-26-2011, 01:54 PM
I would be stunned if Kyrie Irving returned and am pleased he is not making any rote statements we hear so often from players who say of course they are coming back until they announce they are departing.

I base that upon his position in the draft potentially being lower if he stays another year since this year's draft prospects are regarded as a below average class (a factor that caused Mike Dunleavy to declare in 2002), that he may not care to run the risk in staying after experiencing what could have been a career altering injury before going pro, and that he fought so hard to rehab his injury to get back on the court for what has been regarded since he signed as his one and only year at Duke.

I regret we did not have a chance to see more of this great talent in a Duke uniform but am very glad the December injury does not appear to have resulted in any permanent impairment and hope for the best for him in the NBA

ThePublisher
03-26-2011, 02:24 PM
I think he'll stay. He probably fees like he owes it to himself and to Duke to stay. His comments after the game, although probably emotionally driven, make me think he will stay as well. You can't end your college career like that.

DukeCrow
03-26-2011, 02:31 PM
I think he'll stay. He probably fees like he owes it to himself and to Duke to stay. His comments after the game, although probably emotionally driven, make me think he will stay as well. You can't end your college career like that.

Time heals all wounds... in a couple weeks the sting of the loss might not be as bad.

Kedsy
03-26-2011, 04:13 PM
Time heals all wounds...

I thought time wounds all Heels?

jammsb
03-26-2011, 04:22 PM
I live and bleed Duke blue. Nevertheless I think he would be making a big mistake if he came back. For selfish reasons I hope he does. When one considers the injury he went through this year and the fact that he now realizes he isn't Superman like most young people do. The money that will be on the table is just too much to take a chance of losing it. Things can happen and sometimes do. Its just too much of a gamble.

Bojangles4Eva
03-26-2011, 05:36 PM
I live and bleed Duke blue. Nevertheless I think he would be making a big mistake if he came back. For selfish reasons I hope he does. When one considers the injury he went through this year and the fact that he now realizes he isn't Superman like most young people do. The money that will be on the table is just too much to take a chance of losing it. Things can happen and sometimes do. Its just too much of a gamble.

Some people value money less, and things money can't buy more than others.

Tim1515
03-26-2011, 05:43 PM
Some people value money less, and things money can't buy more than others.

That's a lot easier to say when you're not the one passing up millions of dollars.

wacobluedevil
03-26-2011, 05:52 PM
That's a lot easier to say when you're not the one passing up millions of dollars.

That may be easier to say, but it doesn't make it less truthful.

DukeCrow
03-26-2011, 07:18 PM
That's a lot easier to say when you're not the one passing up millions of dollars.

Saying he's passing it up is an exaggeration. He's just delaying receiving it for a little while. And, due to the potential lockout, that delay will be less than a full year. Nothing wrong with a little delayed gratification ;)

turnandburn55
03-26-2011, 07:52 PM
Along with the $$$ concerns of a potential lockout, one has to factor in that going to the NBA potentially means spending a lot of time...... not playing competitive basketball. For the second year in a row. Food for thought.

Verga3
03-26-2011, 10:10 PM
I believe Kyrie will be back. He is similar to Kyle and Nolan, in that he loves being in school at Duke. Being a student here, academically and socially, is very special. Kyrie is a terrific and intelligent young man and has a strong family heritage....forget about basketball. Basketball is not who he is. That's not understanding Kyrie. Tough decision upcoming for him soon, but he will follow his heart....His friends will support him in whatever decision he takes. He will decide what is right for him, with help from his dad, family and Coach K.

I'll never forget seeing Kyle wearing a custom t-shirt with I LOVE DUKE on the front (and a big smile on his face) the day before he announced he was staying for his senior year. To play basketball here and be coached by Coach K (and his terrific staff) for four years, and then to graduate with a Duke University diploma, is as good as it gets. These guys got that, and just truly enjoyed being college student-athletes at Duke. It's a timeless decision that they will never regret.

Bojangles4Eva
03-26-2011, 10:16 PM
That's a lot easier to say when you're not the one passing up millions of dollars.

While not millions, I know a few of people (including myself) who have passed up careers which would give them tens of thousands of dollars more in salary simply because the juice was not worth the squeeze. KI's situation is different, yes, and since I've never been offered millions of dollars, I cannot say exactly what I would do, but...... that doesn't change the fact that for some people, money is not the primary deciding factor when they make career decisions.

Case in point, Kyrie came back to play for the NCAAT when there was the possibility his draft stock could go down or he could re-injure himself, potentially costing him millions of dollars. He came back because he wanted to play, and if he's done it once its not out of the realm of possibility that he would do it again, especially if he truly thinks his NBA development may be better with an extra year under coach K (or if he's dead set on winning a NC).

AlaskanAssassin
03-26-2011, 10:58 PM
Tristan Thompson signs with an agent:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/212571/Report_Tristan_Thompson_Signs_With_Agent

J4Kop99
03-26-2011, 11:10 PM
Just watched about 5 or 6 highlight videos of Austin Rivers and kept on thinking about the possibilites if Kyrie were to return.

A backcourt of Kyrie and Austin would be unreal.


Think it through Kyrie... You have a lot left to accomplish at Duke. You never even got to play against UNC!

lotusland
03-26-2011, 11:26 PM
Saying he's passing it up is an exaggeration. He's just delaying receiving it for a little while. And, due to the potential lockout, that delay will be less than a full year. Nothing wrong with a little delayed gratification ;)

Kyrie is projected as the first or second pick right now so his draft position cannot improve by returning. Waiting means that he'll be in with next years studs including AR, Davis, Teague, Gilchrist, Miller, and possibly Sullinger. He could get hurt or not play well enough to remain the top pick if he stays. The lockout doesn't change the fact that waiting could cost him millions. Also the fact is that his game is ready for the NBA. That is the downside of getting the top rated recruits. If AR is as good as advertised he will be one and done. If we get Tony Parker and he is as good as everyone hopes he'll be one and done. Nothing wrong with having one of those every year but you need some upper-classmen who can be stars and leaders to win a championship.

meloveduke
03-26-2011, 11:46 PM
I remember both AR and KI saying along the lines that they really wanted to play together. I cant find anything on the web about it, so I could be wrong. I just remember hearing somethin like that.


For those that say staying would mean giving up a ton of money, NBA players dont make their money on the first contract the money is made on the following contracts.

I think KI has what it takes to be a one and done, I just dont think he is that type of kid. I see him more like Henderson, 2 maybe 3( pushing it a bit) years.

FireOgilvie
03-27-2011, 12:01 AM
Tristan Thompson signs with an agent:

http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/212571/Report_Tristan_Thompson_Signs_With_Agent

Ha! He repeatedly said one week ago that he was returning to Texas. He said he had already signed up for classes and he couldn't wait to play with Myck Kabongo. Too funny. This is why you can never put any stock in what these kids say until they've had time to actually make the decision away from the pressures of the team and coaches. It's easy to make bold and ill-advised statements when surrounded by your teammates (and multiple reporters) or after a loss.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/tournament/2011/news/story?id=6236917

Also, I think Kyrie is definitely gone. However, I would really love to see him play at Duke next season.

lotusland
03-27-2011, 12:17 AM
I remember both AR and KI saying along the lines that they really wanted to play together. I cant find anything on the web about it, so I could be wrong. I just remember hearing somethin like that.


For those that say staying would mean giving up a ton of money, NBA players dont make their money on the first contract the money is made on the following contracts.

I think KI has what it takes to be a one and done, I just dont think he is that type of kid. I see him more like Henderson, 2 maybe 3( pushing it a bit) years.

Kyrie is not going to stay in order to play with AR. That doesn't happen any more than recruits going to the same school b/c they are buddies and want to play together. I think Kyrie is definitely an intelligent "kind of kid" so I expect him to make the intelligent decision that I would make or that you would make if either of us were the #1 projected draft pick. I'm sure he loves Duke and I'll look forward to seeing him come back for some games when the NBA schedule allows. I hope he decides to finish his degree as soon as possible while playing pro ball for the next 10-12 years.

duke09hms
03-27-2011, 01:04 AM
A similar example -

QB Andrew Luck at Stanford was projected as sure-fire #1 pick in the NFL draft and decided to come back to Stanford after just missing out on the BCS title game. And this is AFTER a change in head coach (Harbaugh left for the NFL).

Of course this is leaving out Kyrie's toe injury, but it's not like it is unheard of.

Duke: A Dynasty
03-27-2011, 01:07 AM
I remember both AR and KI saying along the lines that they really wanted to play together. I cant find anything on the web about it, so I could be wrong. I just remember hearing somethin like that.

For those that say staying would mean giving up a ton of money, NBA players dont make their money on the first contract the money is made on the following contracts.

I think KI has what it takes to be a one and done, I just dont think he is that type of kid. I see him more like Henderson, 2 maybe 3( pushing it a bit) years.

Yeah Kyrie def said that. I know cause I posted it on DBR when he said it and AR just ssid that he would love to team up and play with KI if he stayed.

billyj
03-27-2011, 02:08 AM
Time is perfect for Kyrie. Waiting one more year will only hurt his chance.

And playing with Austin Rivers doesn't guarantee a championship. He has much to learn as a player. IMO Nolan-Singler was a much better combo in college basketball last year.

Duke: A Dynasty
03-27-2011, 02:12 AM
Cmon when you are gonna be making that much money it does not matter if you go 1st or 10th.

And as much as I loved Nolan and Kyle I think I would enjoy seeing Kyrie and Austin more. Not to take anything away from Nolan and Kyle its just a preferance thing. I like seeing fast atheletic guards in college more, so two at once would make me go insane with happiness.

uh_no
03-27-2011, 02:16 AM
Cmon when you are gonna be making that much money it does not matter if you go 1st or 10th.

And as much as I loved Nolan and Kyle I think I would enjoy seeing Kyrie and Austin more. Not to take anything away from Nolan and Kyle its just a preferance thing. I like seeing fast atheletic guards in college more, so two at once would make me go insane with happiness.

Actually, there is a huge difference money wise between 1st and 10th.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9301

its 3x as much

I'm not sure what to take out of your second assertion....which part of nolan is slow and unathletic?

Duke: A Dynasty
03-27-2011, 04:02 AM
Actually, there is a huge difference money wise between 1st and 10th.

http://www.hoopsworld.com/Story.asp?story_id=9301

its 3x as much

I'm not sure what to take out of your second assertion....which part of nolan is slow and unathletic?

When your making millions I dont see the difference in 2 or 4 million plus endorsements.

And I never said Nolan was slow and unathletic. Granted he is not fast or a freak of an athlete he rates about average in both. I just meant that Kyrie and Austin are both on the great to elite side of that conversation and for me it is more fun to watch. Nolan and Kyle were more fundamentally sound and played with great intelligence and heart which allowed them to succeed which is what some people prefer to watch.

NBA comparison: Chris Paul and Derrick Rose are two players I love a lot in the NBA. I prefer to watch Derrick Rose for the explosiveness but Chris Paul is still the better all around pg but I would rather watch D Rose all day.

jammsb
03-27-2011, 05:25 AM
I wonder what Coach K in his heart of hearts would advise him. I'm not all that sure that he would tell him to stay.

lotusland
03-27-2011, 05:41 AM
When your making millions I dont see the difference in 2 or 4 million plus endorsements..

I'm pretty sure you are solidly in the minority there. If you don't mind leaving a couple mill on the table you are probably destined to be broke ala Antionne Walker. Even if the kid doesn't know any better he is bound to have adult mentors who do. It's easy to be cavalier with someone else's money. Fans saying it's no big deal for their star players to pass up a couple mill so they can entertain them for another year is about as realistic as hoping a recruit from a wealthy family will not take a scholarship b/c their family doesn't "need" it. Wealthy folks aren't going to give back $50K much less a couple mill. Between $2 Million or $4 Million I'll take the 4 thank you very much.

mgtr
03-27-2011, 07:18 AM
So, when is the go/no go date for Kyrie and other underclassmen this year?

Devilsfan
03-27-2011, 08:20 AM
Matta convinces Sullinger to return next year.

roywhite
03-27-2011, 08:30 AM
So, when is the go/no go date for Kyrie and other underclassmen this year?

April 24 to declare. It's been moved up some.

Deadline of June 13 to pull out.

NBA draft (http://www.mynbadraft.com/2011-nba-draft-date/)

kestrel
03-27-2011, 08:32 AM
So, when is the go/no go date for Kyrie and other underclassmen this year?

The declaration deadline is April 23, with the withdrawal deadline is May 8. Seeing as how Kyrie doesn't need to test the waters, we'll know within a month.

NCAA D1 Manual 10-11: 12.2.4.2.1.1 Men’s Basketball.
In men’s basketball, an enrolled student-athlete may enter a professional league’s draft one time during his collegiate career without jeopardizing eligibility in that sport, provided: (Adopted: 4/30/09 effective 8/1/09)
(a) The student-athlete requests that his name be removed from the draft list and declares his intent to resume intercollegiate participation not later than the end of May 8 of the year in which the draft will occur.

Bluedevil114
03-27-2011, 08:35 AM
I wonder what Coach K in his heart of hearts would advise him. I'm not all that sure that he would tell him to stay.

Coach K will be honest with Kyrie. Coach K will tell him if you are going to be a top five pick then go to the NBA. He is going to say, it was great to coach you and wished I had gotten more than 11 games.

Coach K will also say wait to make your decision. You are a kid that loves to play basketball. There may not be a NBA season next year so lets get more information before making your decision.

duke4ever19
03-27-2011, 09:11 AM
When your making millions I dont see the difference in 2 or 4 million plus endorsements.

Woooo! Let me know when you've got 4 mil in the bank and I'll politely ask for half of it since you "don't see the difference":)

Lord Ash
03-27-2011, 09:30 AM
Ha! He repeatedly said one week ago that he was returning to Texas. He said he had already signed up for classes and he couldn't wait to play with Myck Kabongo. Too funny. This is why you can never put any stock in what these kids say until they've had time to actually make the decision away from the pressures of the team and coaches. It's easy to make bold and ill-advised statements when surrounded by your teammates (and multiple reporters) or after a loss.

http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/tournament/2011/news/story?id=6236917

Also, I think Kyrie is definitely gone. However, I would really love to see him play at Duke next season.

Just wanted to point out, there are rumors going around that the report might be wrong... apparently there is a Tristan Thomas (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/player/profile?playerId=37337) who plays for North Texas (and who scored 18 a game as a senior this year) who may have just signed with an agent, and that might be what folks were talking about.

Bojangles4Eva
03-27-2011, 10:35 AM
I've said this several times regarding this topic, but I'll go one more time then shut up. Money does not always dictate people's decisions, and 18-19 year olds can not only be particularly stubborn, but also very idealistic and not "practical", despite who is whispering in their ear. My point is, if he really wanted to stay or go for whatever reason, he'll do whatever he wants to do, and its possible money may play little to no role in that decision. Not saying this is definitely the way things will unfold, I'm just saying its a little narrow minded (as well as insulting to Kyrie’s character in my opinion) to think that money is the only thing that he will base his decision on.

However, after saying all that……..watch money be the only thing he bases his decision on, haha

PumpkinFunk
03-27-2011, 12:03 PM
I wonder what Coach K in his heart of hearts would advise him. I'm not all that sure that he would tell him to stay.

I don't think he would either. My guess is that Coach K would probably tell Kyrie that he's a lock as a top-3 pick in this year's draft. That means a sizable chunk of money. Coach K might also say that Kyrie is a bit unpolished still, and after barely playing this year and with the possibility of a lockout, the experience in college might be more useful than the money in the long-term. I'd tell Kyrie that if it's about getting paid now, the draft is the way to go, but if he wants to work on some facets of his game that are still a big unpolished, he might want to wait. If I were him, I'd point out how freshmen PGs are often unpolished and that very few do well after coming out early - they often are more shoot-first guards. Derrick Rose is one of the few exceptions. But again, the money is a big deal. He gets paid if he leaves, for sure.

NYBri
03-27-2011, 12:49 PM
1. I wonder what Nolan's influence will be on KI. Nolan stayed and KI watched what a special year he had and who wouldn't want to take over that mantle? Will Nolan give him advice, or just advise by example?

2. KI was on the floor when the AZ game was over. Those last few minutes were tough to take for us, but it must have been just hell for the players. I wonder if K left him there to have that bad taste sit there knowing the only way to get rid of it is to come back and win it all next year. Much like the thrashing that Hurley, et al took at the hands of UNLV. I read that being on the floor at the end was what made them want to come back and win it next year.

I really believe that KI loves Duke, is grateful to Nolan and understands the incredible treatment he received by the medical staff, the coaches, players and fans. I think he stays to erase that awful half of basketball.

Just my opinion from upstate New York...and I could be completely wrong. I also think it's his decision to make and I'm okay with whatever he decides.

Bay Area Duke Fan
03-27-2011, 01:02 PM
He'll be back next year ... just like Sullinger ???

DonnyDevil
03-27-2011, 01:06 PM
Kyrie is not coming back next season. The kid is a lock in the draft. We should focus our attention the players we know we have next season rather than having another couple thousand posts about Kyrie maybe coming back which will not happen. Obviously I hope I am wrong here, but I would more than shocked if the came back.

duke4ever19
03-27-2011, 01:48 PM
Kyrie is not coming back next season. The kid is a lock in the draft. We should focus our attention the players we know we have next season rather than having another couple thousand posts about Kyrie maybe coming back which will not happen. Obviously I hope I am wrong here, but I would more than shocked if the came back.

Ah yes, but isn't Sullinger "a lock in the draft" as well? Howabout Barnes? Isn't he considered a lottery pick if he leaves? Howabout Henson? Following your logic, all three of these players listed above are "not coming back next season", because they are potentially high picks and good NBA players.

You just can't slap a label on Kyrie when he hasn't actually said "I'm declaring for the draft this year".

Speculate all you like, but absolute statements have no place in speculation because then, well, it wouldn't be speculation anymore.

yancem
03-27-2011, 02:31 PM
Kyrie is not coming back next season. The kid is a lock in the draft. We should focus our attention the players we know we have next season rather than having another couple thousand posts about Kyrie maybe coming back which will not happen. Obviously I hope I am wrong here, but I would more than shocked if the came back.

I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure that I read this exact same post about Irving returning THIS season. Like then, we do not know what he is thinking or feeling. Nor do we know what his priorities are. Next season doesn't start for several months and there will be plenty of time to focus on the players we know will be playing after the nba deadline passes.

Also, I am tired of hearing about how it is selfish for fans to want him to return and that it easy to say you would turn down the money when thinking about hypothetical situations. What people really seem to be saying is that they can't imagine turning down the millions and anyone who could or does is an idiot.

Well for many people there is more to life than money. Sure I would love to have a couple of million dollars and it would be difficult to turn that opportunity down, but I have other dreams as well. The goal in life should be to maximize your opportunities to realize all of your goals and dreams. For me, having gown up a Duke basketball fan, winning a ncaa national championship would be very important. This is a goal that would be completely vacated upon entering the draft, while the goal of playing in the nba and being very rich is not vacated by returning. It is delayed and possibly even put at risk but it is still an obtainable goal.

I have no problem with Irving or any other talented player declaring for the draft if their ultimate goal is to make it to the nba and become a millionaire. Their goals and dreams are different than mine and that is perfectly fine or even normal. What I struggle to understand is why some people out there can't grasp that enjoying the collage life and trying to win a NC might be more important (at least in the short term) than the nba.

As a society, we seem to be to fixated on growing up to soon. When these guys enter the nba, basketball stops being a game and becomes a job. Being in the nba for a young man can be very lonely. These guys spend a lot of time in hotel rooms and on planes. "The Life" isn't always as glamorous as the media makes us believe. I think that the idea of wanting to stay a kid for a little longer is something that should be encouraged a little bit more. To me it seems like a better value to preach than the "I gotta get mine and the sooner the better" attitude that is so prevalent today.

Ok, I'm putting my soap box away. Sorry for the sermon.

meloveduke
03-27-2011, 03:17 PM
its funny how the tone changes from year to year. last year before Singler said he was coming back, a lot of people said the same thing about him that people are saying about KI now. there was more of ? because he was not going to go as high as KI would if he does go this year. Before we won the NCAAT last year most everyone said he will test the waters. Then after the NCAAT it was "Oh he is gone we will miss you Singler". What did he do? He "gave up the money" to come back and play another year. Dont be shocked if KI does the same. If KI stays and plays a full year next year and is as good or better then he was this year, he will still be a top 3 pick.

Remember Barns was a lock to come to Duke too........

Thats my .02 I would not bet money on him staying or going.

Kedsy
03-27-2011, 03:55 PM
What I struggle to understand is why some people out there can't grasp that enjoying the collage life...

Is that, like, a special art class?

lotusland
03-27-2011, 04:22 PM
I'm sorry but I'm pretty sure that I read this exact same post about Irving returning THIS season. Like then, we do not know what he is thinking or feeling. Nor do we know what his priorities are. Next season doesn't start for several months and there will be plenty of time to focus on the players we know will be playing after the nba deadline passes.

Also, I am tired of hearing about how it is selfish for fans to want him to return and that it easy to say you would turn down the money when thinking about hypothetical situations. What people really seem to be saying is that they can't imagine turning down the millions and anyone who could or does is an idiot.

Well for many people there is more to life than money. Sure I would love to have a couple of million dollars and it would be difficult to turn that opportunity down, but I have other dreams as well. The goal in life should be to maximize your opportunities to realize all of your goals and dreams. For me, having gown up a Duke basketball fan, winning a ncaa national championship would be very important. This is a goal that would be completely vacated upon entering the draft, while the goal of playing in the nba and being very rich is not vacated by returning. It is delayed and possibly even put at risk but it is still an obtainable goal.

I have no problem with Irving or any other talented player declaring for the draft if their ultimate goal is to make it to the nba and become a millionaire. Their goals and dreams are different than mine and that is perfectly fine or even normal. What I struggle to understand is why some people out there can't grasp that enjoying the collage life and trying to win a NC might be more important (at least in the short term) than the nba.

As a society, we seem to be to fixated on growing up to soon. When these guys enter the nba, basketball stops being a game and becomes a job. Being in the nba for a young man can be very lonely. These guys spend a lot of time in hotel rooms and on planes. "The Life" isn't always as glamorous as the media makes us believe. I think that the idea of wanting to stay a kid for a little longer is something that should be encouraged a little bit more. To me it seems like a better value to preach than the "I gotta get mine and the sooner the better" attitude that is so prevalent today.

Ok, I'm putting my soap box away. Sorry for the sermon.
Kyrie's decision is totally differnt from Kyle's last year or Mason's this year. Kyle had no guarantee of being a first round pick. Truth be told the odds are against him having a long NBA career or being an impact player much like Jon Scheyer. He's going to get a shot but he better be as ready as he can be .

Mason should realize that being drafted does not guarantee you an NBA career - see William Avery. If he goes too soon and washes out of the league it's tough to get back from the D league or Europe and his college scholorship and eligibility are gone. KI, HB and Sullinger are ready and will be lottery picks. I think they all go regardless of what they say right now. I'd love for him to come back but he's not and neither would I.

Utley
03-27-2011, 09:35 PM
I'd go if I was Kyrie but you never know. I wish him the best - I thought he was both all class and a warrior. I also hope I'm wrong.

I have been impressed with both Knight and Boynton. Are they likely to announce? Any chance either challenges Kyrie for top point guard if so?

Leck
03-27-2011, 09:58 PM
the draft logic for everyone (1-and-done's, early entrants, foreigners) is probably going to be thrown off just a bit because there's a sure fire lockout looming. the labor situation between the nbpa and the league and owners is far more tenuous than what's going on with the nfl. it's not a question of if it will happen, but how long it will be. given the early indications, it could be something that takes up a large chunk of the nba season. what that means is draftees could potentially not get paid under their contracts until well over six months after the draft (leaving income to come only from checks from agents, endorsements, or maybe playing overseas). this could pose a fairly interesting deterrent to turning pro and something that i'm sure kyrie and his dad are going to have to consider in the decision-making process.

certainly it might have a bigger impact on mason's decision than kyrie's simply because kyrie will likely have the ability to garner endorsement deals being a top-5 pick.

wilko
03-27-2011, 10:21 PM
How about Barnes? Isn't he considered a lottery pick if he leaves? How about Henson? Following your logic, all three of these players listed above are "not coming back next season", because they are potentially high picks and good NBA players.

During the UK/unc game ... it was late in the 2nd... UK was up and the clock was into the final seconds... She asks "Whats Roy gonna do now?" I said "retire".

Yes the entire UNC team is a lottery pick and should leave immediately. They were much more fun when they blew chunks...



Kyrie is gonna go what hes gonna do...
We cant invest too much emotion in the HOPE that he stays... best to consider him gone until he suits up again. Either way, nothing but love for the guy from me.

UrinalCake
03-27-2011, 10:36 PM
Steve Kerr had some interesting comments on the Bill Simmons podcast last week, which I've also been thinking for a while now. He thinks that every kid needs two years of college. He thought that even Lebron James, while physically ready to jump straight from high school, could have matured socially in school. Maybe the whole "Decision" spectacle doesn't happen if he had a little more perspective on life. Kerr speculated that perhaps if Kobe Bryant had been coached for two years on teamwork by Coach K, maybe he gets along with Shaq better and they don't break up that dynasty in LA. He's got a point, though opponents of the age restriction have an equally valid point that people have a right to do what they want to do.

So while Kyrie would be a top pick, it wouldn't hurt him to stay either. We'll see.

SuperTurkey
03-27-2011, 10:39 PM
Steve Kerr had some interesting comments on the Bill Simmons podcast last week, which I've also been thinking for a while now. He thinks that every kid needs two years of college. He thought that even Lebron James, while physically ready to jump straight from high school, could have matured socially in school. Maybe the whole "Decision" spectacle doesn't happen if he had a little more perspective on life. Kerr speculated that perhaps if Kobe Bryant had been coached for two years on teamwork by Coach K, maybe he gets along with Shaq better and they don't break up that dynasty in LA. He's got a point, though opponents of the age restriction have an equally valid point that people have a right to do what they want to do.

So while Kyrie would be a top pick, it wouldn't hurt him to stay either. We'll see.

What amused me so much about that podcast was how Duke was the go to example for improving players. Both Kerr and Simmons (no Duke lover) agreed that Kobe, Lebron, and Dwight Howard would all be better if they had spent 2 years at Duke.

It wasn't some abstract, hypothetical school in their examples. It was Duke.

Rudy
03-27-2011, 10:40 PM
He wouldn't be stupid for staying and he wouldn't be greedy to go. There are things he would miss whichever decision he makes. He contributed to the program and to our enjoyment of the team. Whatever decision he makes should be supported by Duke and its fan base.

MaxAMillion
03-27-2011, 11:07 PM
He wouldn't be stupid for staying and he wouldn't be greedy to go. There are things he would miss whichever decision he makes. He contributed to the program and to our enjoyment of the team. Whatever decision he makes should be supported by Duke and its fan base.

Exactly, it is Irving's life and he has to do what is best for him. I just don't like when kids who leave early are portrayed as selfish. I hate it when Vitale goes on his rants about kids staying in school. Baseball players go pro right out of high school all the time and no one seems to care.

licc85
03-28-2011, 03:12 AM
Exactly, it is Irving's life and he has to do what is best for him. I just don't like when kids who leave early are portrayed as selfish. I hate it when Vitale goes on his rants about kids staying in school. Baseball players go pro right out of high school all the time and no one seems to care.

because minor leagues in baseball actually matter . . . the NCAA has a monopoly on all of the amateur talent in basketball and they don't let players get paid.

RoyalBlue08
03-28-2011, 07:06 AM
Steve Kerr had some interesting comments on the Bill Simmons podcast last week, which I've also been thinking for a while now. He thinks that every kid needs two years of college. He thought that even Lebron James, while physically ready to jump straight from high school, could have matured socially in school. Maybe the whole "Decision" spectacle doesn't happen if he had a little more perspective on life. Kerr speculated that perhaps if Kobe Bryant had been coached for two years on teamwork by Coach K, maybe he gets along with Shaq better and they don't break up that dynasty in LA. He's got a point, though opponents of the age restriction have an equally valid point that people have a right to do what they want to do.

So while Kyrie would be a top pick, it wouldn't hurt him to stay either. We'll see.

This is an interesting point, and one I don't necessarily disagree with in a general sense. However, in Kyrie's case, he strikes me as a very mature young man (at least in the way he handles himself around reporters). One thing he didn't get to experience this year however was being the leader of a team. Even before he got injured, this was Kyle and Nolan's team. In the NBA he is going to go to a team that is so bad that he is going to be expected to lead right away, especially given the position he plays. I think there might be something to be said for spending a year being the leader of the Duke team.

duke4ever19
03-28-2011, 07:31 AM
Kyrie is gonna go what hes gonna do...
We cant invest too much emotion in the HOPE that he stays... best to consider him gone until he suits up again. Either way, nothing but love for the guy from me.

I agree with part of this. That is why the rest of my post was a soft rebuke to those that insist on making absolute statements on his status before they actually know what he's going to do.


best to consider him gone until he suits up again.

I don't think it's best to consider him anything until he actually decides and communicates it with the rest of the world. Why try to convince yourself of one thing over another?

It's fine to have a gut feeling about the situation, but as I said in my last post, absolute statements such as "He is 100% gone" have no place in a discussion that is pure speculation.

yancem
03-28-2011, 08:37 AM
Is that, like, a special art class?

That's what happens when you rely to heavily on spell check.

rsvman
03-28-2011, 09:24 AM
Exactly, it is Irving's life and he has to do what is best for him. I just don't like when kids who leave early are portrayed as selfish. I hate it when Vitale goes on his rants about kids staying in school. Baseball players go pro right out of high school all the time and no one seems to care.

Difference is in the fact that in baseball, once you start playing for a college team, you must play three years.

So, you can come straight out of high school, but if you're not good enough to do that, you have to play a minimum of three years of college ball before you're eligible again.

Basketball should follow suit. Bilas made the argument that it would help not only the college game, but also the NBA. He says that a lot of the underclassmen are not ready for the NBA, so the talent pool is being decreased by the early entries.

Duke79UNLV77
03-28-2011, 10:05 AM
because minor leagues in baseball actually matter . . . the NCAA has a monopoly on all of the amateur talent in basketball and they don't let players get paid.

Depends on how you look at it. A basketball player can get a full college ride worth about $200K ($50K per year). The player also can get a degree (perhaps from a school he wouldn't have gotten into otherwise), and I think the general statistic is that those with a college degree are expected to earn over a million more over the course of a lifetime than those without one. Most minor league baseball players make less than $50K per year and may not realize they aren't going to make the show until they are in their mid 20s or so, at which point they have no college education to fall back on.

For the small subset of players in both sports who are true stars, they will get millions sooner or later regardless of the system. Traditionally, a basketball player would still get the first big contract before most star baseball players, although the growth in signing bonuses for the very top baseball draft picks is changing that some. The college basketball game, I think, also does much more to enhance a player's marketability value than do minor league or college baseball.

moonpie23
03-28-2011, 10:21 AM
it's not fair to tell a kid he HAS to go to college to allow him access to his intended profession, nor wait 1, 2, or ANY years...

make it a rule that your first year in the "league" is in the D league....imagine how awesome the D league would be year in and year out, and THEN NBA gm's could make better decisions when calling a player up....

kid continues to play ball, get paid, develop...etc...yada yada....

kids who wanna go to college go to college....

pfrduke
03-28-2011, 10:29 AM
it's not fair to tell a kid he HAS to go to college to allow him access to his intended profession, nor wait 1, 2, or ANY years...

This is wrong. Professions all over the country do this - lawyers, doctors, accountants, etc. I'm a lawyer - I knew I wanted to be one since I was in high school. But the legal profession put in place certain requirements before I could enter - 4 years in college, plus 3 in law school, plus the bar exam (shudder). Did I actually need all that to be a lawyer? No. But those are the barriers to entry the profession has put in place. And I'm probably better suited to be a good lawyer for having done all that than if I had just done a bunch of mock trial competitions in high school and "gone pro" immediately thereafter.

Playing basketball in the NBA is not a right. And the NBA can impose reasonable, non-discriminatory barriers to entry. It would be perfectly reasonable for the NBA to decide that its players are better prepared for life in the pros after 2-3 years in college (or 2-3 years playing overseas), and make that a prerequisite.

Jderf
03-28-2011, 10:32 AM
Depends on how you look at it. A basketball player can get a full college ride worth about $200K ($50K per year).

It really irks me a bit when I see this rationalization.

An education is not a commodity. It is not "worth" $200,000, and it cannot be sold in the open market for that amount.

In reality, a degree's value is both more and less than $200,000. And, in every specific case, its worth is determined by the individual who receives it. For some, maybe even for most, this value can be extremely high. But for others, it simply is not.

This is not deplorable. It is not unethical. It is simply making the observation that, for certain people, an education is neither desirable nor useful. They may have other means of achieving their goals, and they may not. But in the end it is their responsibility to make the decision. It should not be forced upon them.

For those who say the current layout is fair to all players because they are compensated with a $200,000 education, I can only respond with this horrible and silly metaphor: it is as fair as meeting a man dying of thirst in the desert, taking his camel, and offering him a brick of gold.

Kedsy
03-28-2011, 10:33 AM
That's what happens when you rely to heavily on spell check.

I know. I just thought it was funny. No offense intended.

Exiled_Devil
03-28-2011, 10:33 AM
it's not fair to tell a kid he HAS to go to college to allow him access to his intended profession, nor wait 1, 2, or ANY years...

make it a rule that your first year in the "league" is in the D league....imagine how awesome the D league would be year in and year out, and THEN NBA gm's could make better decisions when calling a player up....

kid continues to play ball, get paid, develop...etc...yada yada....

kids who wanna go to college go to college....

This is how it works today. The NBA does not say you need to go to college for a year, they just limit players to those who are a year past their graduating HS class. Look to Brandon Jennings as an example of this. It's just that college is the easiest route to spend a year not in the pros.

fgb
03-28-2011, 10:35 AM
This is wrong. Professions all over the country do this - lawyers, doctors, accountants, etc. I'm a lawyer - I knew I wanted to be one since I was in high school. But the legal profession put in place certain requirements before I could enter - 4 years in college, plus 3 in law school, plus the bar exam (shudder). Did I actually need all that to be a lawyer? No. But those are the barriers to entry the profession has put in place. And I'm probably better suited to be a good lawyer for having done all that than if I had just done a bunch of mock trial competitions in high school and "gone pro" immediately thereafter.

Playing basketball in the NBA is not a right. And the NBA can impose reasonable, non-discriminatory barriers to entry. It would be perfectly reasonable for the NBA to decide that its players are better prepared for life in the pros after 2-3 years in college (or 2-3 years playing overseas), and make that a prerequisite.


fantastic point.

Jderf
03-28-2011, 10:38 AM
This is wrong. Professions all over the country do this - lawyers, doctors, accountants, etc. I'm a lawyer - I knew I wanted to be one since I was in high school. But the legal profession put in place certain requirements before I could enter - 4 years in college, plus 3 in law school, plus the bar exam (shudder). Did I actually need all that to be a lawyer? No. But those are the barriers to entry the profession has put in place. And I'm probably better suited to be a good lawyer for having done all that than if I had just done a bunch of mock trial competitions in high school and "gone pro" immediately thereafter.

Yes, BUT: Going to an undergraduate college for four years is not a requirement for law school. It is just something that makes you more qualified for law school. You could apply all you want before getting your first degree, you're just not going to get in.

For basketball players (the superbly talented ones), playing a year in college does not make them any more qualified to play in the NBA. It does not give them any additional certification. It is nothing more than an arbitrary restriction that prevents them from capitalizing on a marketable skill.

(Edit: Also, none of the pre-law students at Duke are prevented from making money at a work-study position in Perkins Library. It would not "violate" their "amateur status.")

sagegrouse
03-28-2011, 10:40 AM
it's not fair to tell a kid he HAS to go to college to allow him access to his intended profession, nor wait 1, 2, or ANY years...

make it a rule that your first year in the "league" is in the D league....imagine how awesome the D league would be year in and year out, and THEN NBA gm's could make better decisions when calling a player up....

kid continues to play ball, get paid, develop...etc...yada yada....

kids who wanna go to college go to college....

Given: A high percentage of pro athletes go bankrupt shortly after retirement, even those who make millions of dollars in the NBA.

Assertion: Players should be able at any age to go to the NBA, without respect to age or college attendance, as long as the NBA is willing to sign them and give them a salary (minimum is around 800K?).

Opinion: I dunno, guys. It doesn't seem at all unreasonable for the NBA and the Player's Union to agree on a plan that delays entry to the league until a player is mature enough to handle the lifestyle and the economics. Of course, if taken to the logical extreme, that could be about age 40 or 45.

sagegrouse

WiJoe
03-28-2011, 10:50 AM
... in Kyrie's case, he strikes me as a very mature young man (at least in the way he handles himself around reporters). One thing he didn't get to experience this year however was being the leader of a team. Even before he got injured, this was Kyle and Nolan's team. In the NBA he is going to go to a team that is so bad that he is going to be expected to lead right away, especially given the position he plays. I think there might be something to be said for spending a year being the leader of the Duke team.

This is a pretty darn good argument. In fact, it's perfect.

tommy
03-28-2011, 11:00 AM
It really irks me a bit when I see this rationalization.

An education is not a commodity. It is not "worth" $200,000, and it cannot be sold in the open market for that amount.

In reality, a degree's value is both more and less than $200,000. And, in every specific case, its worth is determined by the individual who receives it. For some, maybe even for most, this value can be extremely high. But for others, it simply is not.

This is not deplorable. It is not unethical. It is simply making the observation that, for certain people, an education is neither desirable nor useful. They may have other means of achieving their goals, and they may not. But in the end it is their responsibility to make the decision. It should not be forced upon them.

For those who say the current layout is fair to all players because they are compensated with a $200,000 education, I can only respond with this horrible and silly metaphor: it is as fair as meeting a man dying of thirst in the desert, taking his camel, and offering him a brick of gold.

In what circumstances, or for which "certain people" is an education neither "desirable" nor "useful?" Certain people feel they're better off without an education? Who and why?

Duke79UNLV77
03-28-2011, 11:02 AM
It really irks me a bit when I see this rationalization.

An education is not a commodity. It is not "worth" $200,000, and it cannot be sold in the open market for that amount.

In reality, a degree's value is both more and less than $200,000. And, in every specific case, its worth is determined by the individual who receives it. For some, maybe even for most, this value can be extremely high. But for others, it simply is not.

This is not deplorable. It is not unethical. It is simply making the observation that, for certain people, an education is neither desirable nor useful. They may have other means of achieving their goals, and they may not. But in the end it is their responsibility to make the decision. It should not be forced upon them.

For those who say the current layout is fair to all players because they are compensated with a $200,000 education, I can only respond with this horrible and silly metaphor: it is as fair as meeting a man dying of thirst in the desert, taking his camel, and offering him a brick of gold.

Fair enough, The traditional basketball system of going to college does take away some choice. But, ir irks me a bit when baseball is used by comparison when arguing that the basketball system takes advantage of kids. I think the basketball system is much more beneficial for the average player who won't ever make it big but can walk away with a college degree to fall back on than the baseball system where the average player walks away probably older but with no college education, and having worked for little pay in a tough job for a number of years. It seems to me the traditional basketball system has most often been in the best interest of the pro league, the college game, and the kids.

buzz
03-28-2011, 11:03 AM
What I am wondering is this - is it at all plausible that the NBA's new CBA adopts, say, a 2-year rule (either with or without the straight outta high school provision) and that the 1-and-dones from this year's class are actually required to stay in school for another year? Or would the current crop be grandfathered in? A lot of what ifs, I acknowledge. I just haven't seen this scenario discussed much, if at all.

Jderf
03-28-2011, 11:06 AM
In what circumstances, or for which "certain people" is an education neither "desirable" nor "useful?" Certain people feel they're better off without an education? Who and why?

Well, to provide an extremely obvious and easy-to-understand example, LeBron James. He has no intention of following a career into any academic discipline, AND he has the means to support both himself and his family.

Look, I didn't say it was the case for most. The vast majority of human beings would benefit enormously from an education. I am NOT contending that. Never would. I'm just saying that for "certain people," it's not the case.

Jderf
03-28-2011, 11:13 AM
Fair enough, The traditional basketball system of going to college does take away some choice. But, ir irks me a bit when baseball is used by comparison when arguing that the basketball system takes advantage of kids. I think the basketball system is much more beneficial for the average player who won't ever make it big but can walk away with a college degree to fall back on than the baseball system where the average player walks away probably older but with no college education, and having worked for little pay in a tough job for a number of years. It seems to me the traditional basketball system has most often been in the best interest of the pro league, the college game, and the kids.

This, I actually agree with wholeheartedly. I don't know enough about baseball to compare, but for the average athlete (even for 99% of athletes), the NCAA's system is fantastic. And it is unfortunate that the angle of the debate tends to make the problem seem much bigger than it actually is. But, in my opinion, it doesn't change the fact that a small cross-section of college basketball players are unfairly forced to play for free.

rsvman
03-28-2011, 11:18 AM
Well, to provide an extremely obvious and easy-to-understand example, LeBron James. He has no intention of following a career into any academic discipline, AND he has the means to support both himself and his family.
This analysis assumes that the purpose of an education is to provide a person with an academic career or to provide him with a way to support his family. Maybe that's what it means to you, maybe not. But it's not fair to categorize a college education in this fashion. Just because you can make a very good living without a college education doesn't mean that you wouldn't benefit from one.

wilko
03-28-2011, 11:27 AM
I don't think it's best to consider him anything until he actually decides and communicates it with the rest of the world. Why try to convince yourself of one thing over another?

It's fine to have a gut feeling about the situation, but as I said in my last post, absolute statements such as "He is 100% gone" have no place in a discussion that is pure speculation.

We will just have to respectfully agree to disagree here...

I don't know about you, but I have an irrational, obsessive component to my personality when it comes to Duke Basketball. While I do go nuts and make each game appointment television, I see no point in investing a chunk of emotion into a decision I cant control by an 18 yo kid.

Of course I WANT him to stay,
Of course I WANT to see him in a Duke Uni again

but I'm not gonna hold my breath...

If he does come back, it will be a very pleasant surprise and minimize my disappointment.

dcdevil2009
03-28-2011, 11:36 AM
Lockout question

If there is a lockout and a new CBA, would the rookies who get drafted this year still get paid under the current rookie salary scale, or would their contracts get torn up and replaced with whatever the rookie scale is under the new CBA? I'm basically asking whether Kyrie is risking leaving a couple million on the table by leaving next year and getting a potentially less lucrative rookie deal or if he's going to get the new CBA's rookie salary either way. Since he'll presumably be under contract by the time the contract starts, will he be guaranteed that contract for 3-4 years (however long the rookie deals are) or will contracts have to be renegotiated to account for the new salary cap rules and financial structure of the new labor deal? Thanks for the help.

ChillinDuke
03-28-2011, 11:43 AM
Lockout question

If there is a lockout and a new CBA, would the rookies who get drafted this year still get paid under the current rookie salary scale, or would their contracts get torn up and replaced with whatever the rookie scale is under the new CBA? I'm basically asking whether Kyrie is risking leaving a couple million on the table by leaving next year and getting a potentially less lucrative rookie deal or if he's going to get the new CBA's rookie salary either way. Since he'll presumably be under contract by the time the contract starts, will he be guaranteed that contract for 3-4 years (however long the rookie deals are) or will contracts have to be renegotiated to account for the new salary cap rules and financial structure of the new labor deal? Thanks for the help.

I am under the impression that the draft is after the current CBA expires. As such, rookies would be drafted with no rookie contract terms (as outlined by a CBA). Rookies would only learn of their contract terms after a new CBA is agreed upon.

More clearly, Kyrie would get a rookie contract under the new CBA.

EDIT - Even more clearly, Kyrie would enter the draft blindly (in regards to $$$).

Please correct me if this is wrong.

-chillin

Bluedog
03-28-2011, 11:47 AM
I am under the impression that the draft is after the current CBA expires. As such, rookies would be drafted with no rookie contract terms (as outlined by a CBA). Rookies would only learn of their contract terms after a new CBA is agreed upon.

More clearly, Kyrie would get a rookie contract under the new CBA.

EDIT - Even more clearly, Kyrie would enter the draft blindly (in regards to $$$).

Please correct me if this is wrong.

-chillin

Incorrect on the timing

NBA Draft is June 23
Current CBA expires in July

However, I don't know if that means the contracts agreed upon before the CBA expires are going to be followed or replaced.

Atlanta Duke
03-28-2011, 11:47 AM
Opinion: I dunno, guys. It doesn't seem at all unreasonable for the NBA and the Player's Union to agree on a plan that delays entry to the league until a player is mature enough to handle the lifestyle and the economics. Of course, if taken to the logical extreme, that could be about age 40 or 45.

sagegrouse

According to the linked article and column published on ESPN.com last December the players' union wants to abolish the age requirement in any new collective bargaining agreement

"We want to go back to the way it was," a source from the National Basketball Players Association said. "The players have always been philosophically opposed to it."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5899152
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=jackson/101211

So one and done appears to be the ceiling rather than the floor on any restriction on entry to the NBA since restricting entry as a term of the CBA protects the NBA from being sued on anti-trust grounds

Since a greater restrictnion on entry for all players such as the NFL CBA apparently is not going to happen I question whether a two tier baseball type draft system (immediate entry or madatory deferral on entry for several years) would work to increase the talent level for the college game or deter early entries even if the owners could negotiate such a CBA modification.

Might be better to go back to the old system to wash at least some of the hypocrisy regarding the NCAA and some of its "student athletes" out of the current system.

El_Diablo
03-28-2011, 12:05 PM
Yes, BUT: Going to an undergraduate college for four years is not a requirement for law school. It is just something that makes you more qualified for law school. You could apply all you want before getting your first degree, you're just not going to get in.

For basketball players (the superbly talented ones), playing a year in college does not make them any more qualified to play in the NBA. It does not give them any additional certification. It is nothing more than an arbitrary restriction that prevents them from capitalizing on a marketable skill.

(Edit: Also, none of the pre-law students at Duke are prevented from making money at a work-study position in Perkins Library. It would not "violate" their "amateur status.")

Your first point is not really a good one. First, as you concede, it's a practical nullity, since you have to get an undergrad degree anyway to get accepted to an accredited law school. Second, your distinguishing of undergraduate years from law school years is a distinction without merit; you still have to spend time getting an education before you can sit for the bar. So pfrduke's point remains.

Your second paragraph is entirely valid, but it misses the whole point of the rule. It does not exist to benefit the players; it exists in order to benefit the NBA teams by (a) allowing them time to evaluate players against real competition, and (b) allowing the players to build somewhat of a brand that can be marketed by the teams immediately upon the player's entry into the league. This increases the value of the draft, and benefits the league as a whole. Since it's ultimately a business, that's why the NBA created the rule, and why it will likely remain in the new CBA. Some players may benefit indirectly from (b) by getting some endorsement deals that would not have materialized as readily, but that's not why the NBA instituted the rule.

As to your parenthetical point regarding work-study, I would respond by pointing out that nothing prevents NCAA basketball players from doing the same. They can work in the library if they want to; they can play professional baseball if they want to; they can bag groceries if they want to. They just can't receive money for playing basketball. So they're not entirely cut off from earning any money whatsoever on their own.

superdave
03-28-2011, 12:12 PM
I would have thought many of the more senior players (who are more likely to be in leadership roles in the union) would favor a 1-2 year removed from high school rule. It would seemingly increase their longevity by 1-2 years. However, they also would have to wait another 1-2 years to get to the 2nd and 3rd contracts which are the big paydays.

People in the know seem less optimistic now about a lockout than they did back in the fall.

El_Diablo
03-28-2011, 12:15 PM
According to the linked article and column published on ESPN.com last December the players' union wants to abolish the age requirement in any new collective bargaining agreement

"We want to go back to the way it was," a source from the National Basketball Players Association said. "The players have always been philosophically opposed to it."

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=5899152
http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commentary/news/story?page=jackson/101211

So one and done appears to be the ceiling rather than the floor on any restriction on entry to the NBA since restricting entry as a term of the CBA protects the NBA from being sued on anti-trust grounds

Since a greater restrictnion on entry for all players such as the NFL CBA apparently is not going to happen I question whether a two tier baseball type draft system (immediate entry or madatory deferral on entry for several years) would work to increase the talent level for the college game or deter early entries even if the owners could negotiate such a CBA modification.

Might be better to go back to the old system to wash at least some of the hypocrisy regarding the NCAA and some of its "student athletes" out of the current system.

IMO, I would not put too much stock into that reasoning at this stage. Strategically, it benefits the players to oppose owners-supported rules (such as the age restriction) so that they can "concede" that point as part of the labor negotiations, thus getting something else in return.

And even if the players are truly opposed to it, the owners will have a pretty strong hand at the table. And this rule benefits the owners more than it hurts the existing players (since they're already in the league, and the high school seniors who want to go pro immediately are not represented by the union). The players have bigger fish to fry, so they will have to pick their battles, and it would be a questionable move on their part to concede other matters in order to get the owners to agree to removing the restriction.

So just because the players say they oppose it now doesn't mean it's actually going to change. But who really knows at this point? Some owners may oppose it too and would be willing to trade it away. We'll probably find out in October or November. ;)

dcdevil2009
03-28-2011, 12:32 PM
Incorrect on the timing

NBA Draft is June 23
Current CBA expires in July

However, I don't know if that means the contracts agreed upon before the CBA expires are going to be followed or replaced.

I did some scouring of the internet to see what i could find about my question and found this article that sort of helps:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2010-05-07/sbj-nba-wants-carve-rookies-pay

The article leads me to believe that the rookie contracts are tied to the CBA that is in place at any given time. I'm thinking that instead of having a contract with a definite amount over the term of the contract, the first year pay would be between 80% and 120% of the rookie number on the current CBA and the year over year increase would be based on the percentage given in whatever CBA is in effect at the time of the scheduled increase. The current deal has a 7.5% increase over the base number for each of the first two years and then much larger increases for years 3 and 4, which are team options, while owners are trying to lower that to 2% for all four years (and still retaining the team options in years 3 and 4) in the new CBA.

So say Kyrie gets drafted this #2, he'd get a 2 year guaranteed contract with team options for years 3 and 4. As I understand it, he'd get base number of roughly $4 million (subject to a +/- 20% adjustment) for the 2011-2012 season. In 2012-2013, that number would go up by whatever percentage gets put into the new CBA, not the 7.5% in the current CBA. If he were to go next year as the 2nd pick, he'd start with the rookie number in the new CBA, which will probably be lower and his yearly percentage increase would be based on the number in the new CBA. Essentially, he'd leave the difference between this year's rookie number and next year's plus the difference in growth over the course of the contract. For argument's sake, I'd say it's about $4-5 million over the course of the contract (4 mil per if he leaves now, 3 mil if he stays, plus scheduled increases for each of 3-4 years).

Another aspect that I didn't see anything about was whether the length of the rookie contracts would change. If the new CBA shaves a year or two off rookie contracts, Kyrie could get to his second deal at the same time or sooner by staying another year and potentially make more money over the course of his career. As he'll have to make a decision before a new deal gets worked out, I doubt he could or should risk that happening, but it's something interesting to think about.

Nugget
03-28-2011, 12:35 PM
IMO, I would not put too much stock into that reasoning at this stage. Strategically, it benefits the players to oppose owners-supported rules (such as the age restriction) so that they can "concede" that point as part of the labor negotiations, thus getting something else in return.

And even if the players are truly opposed to it, the owners will have a pretty strong hand at the table. And this rule benefits the owners more than it hurts the existing players (since they're already in the league, and the high school seniors who want to go pro immediately are not represented by the union). The players have bigger fish to fry, so they will have to pick their battles, and it would be a questionable move on their part to concede other matters in order to get the owners to agree to removing the restriction.

So just because the players say they oppose it now doesn't mean it's actually going to change. But who really knows at this point? Some owners may oppose it too and would be willing to trade it away. We'll probably find out in October or November. ;)

I agree completely.

This is purely being used as a negotiating tactic by both sides -- neither the owners nor the NBAPA particularly care that much about whether incoming players must go to college for 1, 2 or zero years before coming into the NBA.

While the union is, in theory, in favor of no age restrictions, their current members of course don't mind too much if the system is set up to have more money go to players already in the league vs younger newcomers. And, the issue is not particularly important to the union, which is more concerned about the total dollars going to players rather than to which players (rookies/youngsters vs. veterans) the money goes.

The owners on the other hand would prefer to have more seasoned players come in, so they would have less mystery about who they draft and benefit from free marketing being done for college players over their NCAA careers. But, they also don't care that much -- especially since Lebron, Kobe, and KG have done fine for them, with no college.

In short, both the owners and the union wouldn't mind if there was a higher age limit, but neither weights it as a high priority. So the union's comment is just posturing, to see if the NBA will "pay" something significant for it in the negotiations. If not, it will be dropped. This issue is immaterial to the NBA/Union negotiations.

jv001
03-28-2011, 12:38 PM
It's really going to be interesting to see which college players actually like their college/team over the $$$ of the NBA. I'm not talking about the players where the huge dollars mean a different life for their families. GoDuke!

El_Diablo
03-28-2011, 12:45 PM
I did some scouring of the internet to see what i could find about my question and found this article that sort of helps:

http://aol.sportingnews.com/nba/story/2010-05-07/sbj-nba-wants-carve-rookies-pay

The article leads me to believe that the rookie contracts are tied to the CBA that is in place at any given time. I'm thinking that instead of having a contract with a definite amount over the term of the contract, the first year pay would be between 80% and 120% of the rookie number on the current CBA and the year over year increase would be based on the percentage given in whatever CBA is in effect at the time of the scheduled increase. The current deal has a 7.5% increase over the base number for each of the first two years and then much larger increases for years 3 and 4, which are team options, while owners are trying to lower that to 2% for all four years (and still retaining the team options in years 3 and 4) in the new CBA.

So say Kyrie gets drafted this #2, he'd get a 2 year guaranteed contract with team options for years 3 and 4. As I understand it, he'd get base number of roughly $4 million (subject to a +/- 20% adjustment) for the 2011-2012 season. In 2012-2013, that number would go up by whatever percentage gets put into the new CBA, not the 7.5% in the current CBA. If he were to go next year as the 2nd pick, he'd start with the rookie number in the new CBA, which will probably be lower and his yearly percentage increase would be based on the number in the new CBA. Essentially, he'd leave the difference between this year's rookie number and next year's plus the difference in growth over the course of the contract. For argument's sake, I'd say it's about $4-5 million over the course of the contract (4 mil per if he leaves now, 3 mil if he stays, plus scheduled increases for each of 3-4 years).

Another aspect that I didn't see anything about was whether the length of the rookie contracts would change. If the new CBA shaves a year or two off rookie contracts, Kyrie could get to his second deal at the same time or sooner by staying another year and potentially make more money over the course of his career. As he'll have to make a decision before a new deal gets worked out, I doubt he could or should risk that happening, but it's something interesting to think about.

But that assumes that a team would be willing to sign the contract before the current CBA expires, right? I could easily see the team saying, "well, we'll talk about terms after the new CBA is in place" (since that would ostensibly save them money, and would require waiting only a few weeks). So even if a player enters the draft now, it doesn't mean he'd get anything under the current CBA.

And even if he were to sign the contract immediately, any payments would be immediately suspended if the lockout goes into effect. So he might not collecting on that salary for several months anyway, and it would not have to be back-dated to make up for the time lost in the lockout period. So even a current-CBA contract would be heavily discounted if there is an extended lockout.

Jderf
03-28-2011, 02:04 PM
(Apologies in advance for dredging up this debate...)


Your first point is not really a good one. First, as you concede, it's a practical nullity, since you have to get an undergrad degree anyway to get accepted to an accredited law school. Second, your distinguishing of undergraduate years from law school years is a distinction without merit; you still have to spend time getting an education before you can sit for the bar. So pfrduke's point remains.

Hmm... well, my first "point" was not really a point at all, except as a point of contrast: lawyers are prevented from starting their careers so that they can actually become more competent as lawyers, whereas already-competent basketball players are prevented in a way that does not necessarily make them any more competent. (Again, only talking about the top-tier guys.)


Your second paragraph is entirely valid,but it misses the whole point of the rule. It does not exist to benefit the players; it exists in order to benefit the NBA teams by (a) allowing them time to evaluate players against real competition, and (b) allowing the players to build somewhat of a brand that can be marketed by the teams immediately upon the player's entry into the league. This increases the value of the draft, and benefits the league as a whole. Since it's ultimately a business, that's why the NBA created the rule, and why it will likely remain in the new CBA. Some players may benefit indirectly from (b) by getting some endorsement deals that would not have materialized as readily, but that's not why the NBA instituted the rule.

I understand it isn't the point of the rule. In fact, that's the problem I'm always try to highlight. These players are perfectly capable of earning a living in their profession, and simply aren't allowed to. Because NBA owners and GMs are too greedy to stop themselves from drafting high-risk-high-reward-type players, they penalize the kids (many of whom are in dire economic situations) by preventing them from earning a paycheck.


As to your parenthetical point regarding work-study, I would respond by pointing out that nothing prevents NCAA basketball players from doing the same. They can work in the library if they want to; they can play professional baseball if they want to; they can bag groceries if they want to. They just can't receive money for playing basketball. So they're not entirely cut off from earning any money whatsoever on their own.

Really? I'm pretty sure that scholarship athletes are actually not allowed to make money above a certain level of yearly earnings, one which is surprisingly low. I could be wrong though.

-jk
03-28-2011, 02:43 PM
I don't usually follow draft stuff, but it occurs to me - if the CBA expires, does everyone not under contract (i.e., drafted but unsigned players and older players whose contracts expire) become free agents? Without a CBA, would the owners be colluding to restrict the market?

-jk

Lid
03-28-2011, 03:18 PM
This, I actually agree with wholeheartedly. I don't know enough about baseball to compare, but for the average athlete (even for 99% of athletes), the NCAA's system is fantastic. And it is unfortunate that the angle of the debate tends to make the problem seem much bigger than it actually is. But, in my opinion, it doesn't change the fact that a small cross-section of college basketball players are unfairly forced to play for free.
Not to pick a nit, but the bolded part is not true, is it? I believe someone else upthread already mentioned the option of playing in Europe for a year, or of course the player could take the year off to work on his game (a la Scheyer rehabbing after his eye injury). No one is forcing them to go to college if they really don't think they'll get anything (basketball- or life-related) out of the college ball experience.

MChambers
03-28-2011, 03:33 PM
I don't usually follow draft stuff, but it occurs to me - if the CBA expires, does everyone not under contract (i.e., drafted but unsigned players and older players whose contracts expire) become free agents? Without a CBA, would the owners be colluding to restrict the market?

-jk

Although I think the union might have to decertify, like the NFL union did, to bring the collusion (antritrust charge).

Bluedog
03-28-2011, 04:11 PM
Really? I'm pretty sure that scholarship athletes are actually not allowed to make money above a certain level of yearly earnings, one which is surprisingly low. I could be wrong though.

Athletes aren't allowed to take work-study jobs since they don't qualify for financial aid (since their scholarship pays for everything, they don't need financial aid). If you get a academic merit scholarship, you also can't take a work-study job. There's also a cap on what athletes can earn during the year - it was $2,000 several years ago; I'm not sure if it's changed since then. I would agree that a $2,000-cap is quite low, but I understand the NCAA's intent. They don't want schools employing their own athletes and paying them $10,000 for a summer of "video work"...

DukieinSoCal
03-28-2011, 04:21 PM
I'm getting tired of hearing all the media types(ie. Chad Ford) declaring that Kyrie is defnitely going pro because he's a top-3 pick. Do they have any other inside information that no one else is privy to?

Obviously, if the guaranteed money and getting to his first max contract as quickly as possible is the most important factor to Kyrie, he'll turn pro. But if his time at Duke, playing for and learning from coach K, winning an NCAA championship, relationships with his teammates(current and future), and just being a kid and playing for the love of the game are also important factors to him, there's a chance he stays.

Judging from his reaction to losing the Arizona game and all of his comments up to this point, I believe that all of the latter considerations are important to Kyrie and that he is seriously considering staying for another year. I've never gotten the impression from him that his mind and heart are already in the NBA. He seems fully engaged in his Duke experience, to his immense credit.

Of course, maybe I'm just trying to talk myself into the insanely optimistic possibility of seeing him play a full season for Duke alongside Austin Rivers, but I never wavered in my belief that he would return to play for Duke this season despite all the naysayers and look how that turned out. Every game I've seen him play for Duke has been an absolute pleasure. And I'm still hoping last weekend was not the last.

El_Diablo
03-28-2011, 04:38 PM
I don't usually follow draft stuff, but it occurs to me - if the CBA expires, does everyone not under contract (i.e., drafted but unsigned players and older players whose contracts expire) become free agents? Without a CBA, would the owners be colluding to restrict the market?

-jk

As for the first question, the scheduled end of the CBA itself is kind of irrelevant so long as the negotiations continue (which would bring temporary extensions, as happened with the NFL recently). But if talks break down completely and the CBA expires, the owners can impose the terms of their last offer (and continue paying the players) or lock the players out (and not have to pay them anything). The first option would almost certainly lead to a strike. The second option puts the squeeze on the players immediately, and would be the likely course of action by the owners. During a lockout, the status of traditional veteran free agents shouldn't really change...it would just last longer since they would be unable to sign new contracts. As for the unsigned rookies, I don't know the specifics, but the teams would almost certainly retain the exclusive rights to their drafted players.

As for the second question, this concept of a team having exclusive rights to a drafted player is definitely colluding to restrict the market. But organized sports are all about conspiracies in restraint of trade, but they're not necessarily unlawful because those conspiracies can in fact promote competition rather than undermine it. That's one reason why owners can agree to divvy up players in a draft and not negotiate with "another team's player"...it benefits intra-league competition, allows the NBA to compete better with other forms of entertainment, etc.

But even the aspects that arguably are anti-competitive are protected by a federal labor exemption to the antitrust laws. This labor exemption persists in the absence of a governing CBA because the collective bargaining relationship still exists. A union decertification might break the relationship and allow for antitrust suits. But the question of whether the decertification of a players union actually constitutes the end of that relationship is a question that is being tested in the courts right now by the NFL players, and it's not clear how the courts will resolve the matter...so even that action might still not be enough.

Anyway, long story short, the labor situation won't open up the free agency floodgates to new draftees.

-jk
03-28-2011, 04:44 PM
Although I think the union might have to decertify, like the NFL union did, to bring the collusion (antritrust charge).

OK, labor lawyers: if Kyrie entered the draft and the CBA lapsed before he signed a contract, could he negotiate his best deal outside of the (also lapsed) rookie salary cap? Or could there be some sort of binding restriction that carries on even through a lapsed CBA?

Or - here's where things could get really interesting - if he skips the draft (and any restrictions it might impose to participate) and the CBA lapses, could he become a free agent and go to any team that wanted him, presumably in a bidding war? (He might miff some future teammates, I suppose, though. But that's a personal choice.)

The mind boggles...

-jk

Edit:
Anyway, long story short, the labor situation won't open up the free agency floodgates to new draftees. Seems it doesn't matter anymore... Thanks.

El_Diablo
03-28-2011, 04:57 PM
Really? I'm pretty sure that scholarship athletes are actually not allowed to make money above a certain level of yearly earnings, one which is surprisingly low. I could be wrong though.

True, there's an earnings limit if they're on scholarship. But it's not like they can't work for any money at all.

But now I see your point there...

MartyClark
03-28-2011, 06:08 PM
True, there's an earnings limit if they're on scholarship. But it's not like they can't work for any money at all.

But now I see your point there...

What is the earnings limit? When Trajan Langdon played, was he a non-scholarship player because of his baseball contract?

Blue in the Face
03-28-2011, 06:35 PM
What is the earnings limit? When Trajan Langdon played, was he a non-scholarship player because of his baseball contract?
Yes.

moonpie23
03-29-2011, 09:26 AM
This is wrong. Professions all over the country do this - lawyers, doctors, accountants, etc. I'm a lawyer - I knew I wanted to be one since I was in high school. But the legal profession put in place certain requirements before I could enter - 4 years in college, plus 3 in law school, plus the bar exam (shudder). Did I actually need all that to be a lawyer? No. But those are the barriers to entry the profession has put in place. And I'm probably better suited to be a good lawyer for having done all that than if I had just done a bunch of mock trial competitions in high school and "gone pro" immediately thereafter.

Playing basketball in the NBA is not a right. And the NBA can impose reasonable, non-discriminatory barriers to entry. It would be perfectly reasonable for the NBA to decide that its players are better prepared for life in the pros after 2-3 years in college (or 2-3 years playing overseas), and make that a prerequisite.

no THIS is wrong......choosing an nba player and the qualifications therein is nothing more than choosing an actor with certain skills. Would you say that it's fair to tell a young Shia Lebouef that he has to "wait a year after high school" to get a big role in a movie? even if you know he's gonna bomb?

no...being in the nba is NOT like being a doctor or lawyer or engineer.....it's ENTERTAINMENT based on a certain set of skills.

it's easy to say that Lebron would have benefitted from a few years at duke, but necessary? hardly...

flyingdutchdevil
03-29-2011, 10:08 AM
no THIS is wrong......choosing an nba player and the qualifications therein is nothing more than choosing an actor with certain skills. Would you say that it's fair to tell a young Shia Lebouef that he has to "wait a year after high school" to get a big role in a movie? even if you know he's gonna bomb?

no...being in the nba is NOT like being a doctor or lawyer or engineer.....it's ENTERTAINMENT based on a certain set of skills.

it's easy to say that Lebron would have benefitted from a few years at duke, but necessary? hardly...

Of all the talented young actors out there, you chose Shia Labeouf as your example? In the words of every NBA player and Kyrie, SMH...

moonpie23
03-29-2011, 10:35 AM
Of all the talented young actors out there, you chose Shia Labeouf as your example? In the words of every NBA player and Kyrie, SMH...

you may have missed the point of picking shia.......as a young "promising" actor, i think he was given WAY to many big roles a bit too early in his career.......(re: kwame brown)

but if the hollywood bigs wanna role the dice on him, that's on them....not shia...

pfrduke
03-29-2011, 11:49 AM
but if the hollywood bigs wanna role the dice on him, that's on them....not shia...

This, sort of, makes my point - if the Hollywood bigs want to role the dice on someone, that's on them, not the actor. The NBA has decided it doesn't want to roll the dice anymore on someone fresh out of high school. As you say, that's on them.

yancem
03-29-2011, 01:55 PM
As I sit at work bored with what is on my desk, I have been contemplating the draft, early entry and the nba labor situation. So here's some food for thought:

There has been much speculating as to the financial benefits of staying or leaving early but the decisions this year have some fascinating factors. Declaring for this years draft could leave players without a contract or real income until there is a new cba, which could take much of the next season. Of course there is also the fact that this year's draft is considered weak and next year's could be stronger so the notion of sticking around to raise your draft stock may not apply.

This is less of a concern for the top top picks because their draft stock may not change too much, but what about the guys expected to go mid to late lottery or the mid teens. If Irving, Sullinger, Jones,and Williams decide to stick around, someone like Knight or Jones or Henson could all of the sudden turn into a #1 pick. The couple of months without pay would definitely be offset by the higher draft position. In fact, for a guy like Barnes who has stated that being drafted #1 is a goal, this might be a dream scenario. This could also be a factor for the late first round early second round players. If 5-10 of the top underclassmen decide to stick around, this draft gets even weaker and could be a real opportunity for some guys to sneak into the first round and get a guaranteed contract.

Also, the boys over at KY have an even more tricky situation. While they have had a dream season and could be poised to have a monster season next year, they are going to face stiff challenges for playing time. Jones is going to have to compete with Michael Gilchrist and Anthony Davis. Knight will have to contend with Teague (maybe less of a concern but still a concern).

UrinalCake
03-29-2011, 02:22 PM
Of course there is also the fact that this year's draft is considered weak and next year's could be stronger so the notion of sticking around to raise your draft stock may not apply.

In addition, if the age limit gets repealed in the new cba, then next year's draft will be REALLY strong because you'll have the 2010 players who decided to stay, the regular 2011 players, plus the high school seniors who are now eligible to jump right away.


Also, the boys over at KY have an even more tricky situation. While they have had a dream season and could be poised to have a monster season next year, they are going to face stiff challenges for playing time.

We'll have to wonder how many of the KY players have actually been going to class. If they've done the typical six credits in the fall and nothing in the spring just to maintain eligibility for the year, then there's no turning back.

tommy
03-29-2011, 03:51 PM
This, sort of, makes my point - if the Hollywood bigs want to role the dice on someone, that's on them, not the actor. The NBA has decided it doesn't want to roll the dice anymore on someone fresh out of high school. As you say, that's on them.

Plus, even in a field like acting, there are in fact barriers to entry. A young actor can't just walk onto a set, have the director call "action" and start working. I believe that in most cases, they have to be members of the Screen Actors Guild. In order to get their guild "card" and begin working, they have to meet certain requirements.

That seems analogous to the NBA (in partnership with the NBAPA) mandating its young wannabes to meet certain standards before they are eligible to work. Both fields have set up their workplaces to ensure that new workers meet minimum eligibility requirements in an effort to improve the overall quality of the product and protect the jobs of those who have met those requirements from being usurped by young, unproven people who the owner (or studio) wants to take a flyer on.

Jderf
03-29-2011, 04:09 PM
This, sort of, makes my point - if the Hollywood bigs want to role the dice on someone, that's on them, not the actor. The NBA has decided it doesn't want to roll the dice anymore on someone fresh out of high school. As you say, that's on them.

I don't see it. You're right that if the Hollywood bigs don't want to hire the actor, that's their decision. And that's completely fair. But if those same Hollywood bigshots colluded with other Hollywood bigshots to make a rule preventing that actor from working anywhere in the US, then I might take offense.

NYBri
03-29-2011, 04:17 PM
If James Cameron wants a non-union actor for Avatar II, he will get him his union card. Not that big a barrier at all.

Kfanarmy
03-29-2011, 11:12 PM
If James Cameron wants a non-union actor for Avatar II, he will get him his union card. Not that big a barrier at all. Not sure I get your point but I think it must be that getting the union card is easy? because you've essentially agreed that it is a standard controlled by those already on the inside...as is the case for the NFL and NBA (the owners)

moonpie23
03-30-2011, 07:34 AM
we might be getting carried away with specifics. Maybe there ARE certain requirements to get a screen actor's guild card, however, they're not going to require a certain age or education.


my main point is that basketball in the NBA is all about entertainment. And there should not be academic restrictions on athletes wanting to play if they're ready to entertain.

rotogod00
03-30-2011, 09:04 AM
Chad Ford's "In/Out" yesterday evening has both Irving and Plumlee under the "One foot in the door Players leaning toward declaring for the draft" category.

List is based on "a number of NBA executives, scouts, NBA player agents and individuals close to players making the decision."

jimrowe0
03-30-2011, 09:18 AM
Chad Ford's "In/Out" yesterday evening has both Irving and Plumlee under the "One foot in the door Players leaning toward declaring for the draft" category.

List is based on "a number of NBA executives, scouts, NBA player agents and individuals close to players making the decision."

I thought I remember reading that Plumlee wanted to play with both of his brothers for one year?

rotogod00
03-30-2011, 09:23 AM
I thought I remember reading that Plumlee wanted to play with both of his brothers for one year?

Did you read it on here or was it something from Mason himself ;-)

wilko
03-30-2011, 10:00 AM
My main point is that basketball in the NBA is all about entertainment. And there should not be academic restrictions on athletes wanting to play if they're ready to entertain.

That makes sense if you are the team owner or president and are part of the ownership and management structure. You have to give the mob something to show up for and put fannies in the seats... These guys cant afford to take Bowie over Jordan or take a powder on Kobe.. The FASTER they spin thru guys looking for someone that can fill that void they better off they are to selling tickets ... wins and losses come second unfortunately.

However, I'll never understand why the players association is seemingly 100% behind this approach. Maybe the agents are double dipping... but on the surface.. lets take Tim Duncan for example. An established Pro in the twilight of his career, why does he want or need some young, green player, taking his minutes and $ as he tries to mount 1 last ride to glory. I don't see why JOB PROTECTION isn't an issue for the players on some level.

If the Players Association were to adapt a sliding rookie scale where your rookie earning potential was based on: Years of college competed, degree earned or yrs in the D-league. Some structure is better than NO structure. This way the owners can have an expectation to control costs AND gets a more polished end product to put on the floor. A dude in dire straights for $$, mother in the hospital, etc, if they NEED it they can get it.. BUT if they don't need it immediately, let it ride till they are a Jr or Sr.

I'd be down with NCAA grandfathering the D-league to amateur status to help address. Guy needs $, that's life, he can skip college play in the D-League for a while... If he turn out to be the greatest thing since sliced bread, good luck and god bless promote him to the league... BUT if it turns out guy was believing in his press clippings a little too much.. and his game isn't all there, why not allow him to return to college and improve his craft and understanding of the game under a coach. A guy with 3 yrs of D-league and 1 yr of college could make a nice check.

One thing troubling that NO ONE is talking about... is the funding cuts to public school athletics. More and more places are looking at making parents foot more of the bill for athletics, places like middle schools. I worry that will exclude a good chunk of people from playing.

UrinalCake
03-30-2011, 10:30 AM
Chad Ford's "In/Out" yesterday evening has both Irving and Plumlee under the "One foot in the door Players leaning toward declaring for the draft" category.

Wouldn't that be one foot out the door?

pfrduke
03-30-2011, 10:40 AM
my main point is that basketball in the NBA is all about entertainment. And there should not be academic restrictions on athletes wanting to play if they're ready to entertain.

Well, there aren't any. No one's forcing a kid to go to college. The NBA has two eligibility rules: 1) must be at least 19 during the year of the draft (so for this year's draftees, born in 1992* or earlier); 2) for those who are not "international players" (as the term is defined in the CBA), they must be at least one year removed from their high school graduating class. No education requirement. No academic restriction (you're not even required to graduate high school, even U.S. players). If you want to go play overseas (and you can get a contract to do so), great. If you want to take a year off and work privately on your game, great.


*my goodness that makes me feel old

rotogod00
03-30-2011, 10:50 AM
Wouldn't that be one foot out the door?

He's talking about it from the perspective of the draft and the NBA, not college and Duke

Jderf
03-30-2011, 11:03 AM
Well, there aren't any. No one's forcing a kid to go to college. The NBA has two eligibility rules: 1) must be at least 19 during the year of the draft (so for this year's draftees, born in 1992* or earlier); 2) for those who are not "international players" (as the term is defined in the CBA), they must be at least one year removed from their high school graduating class. No education requirement. No academic restriction (you're not even required to graduate high school, even U.S. players). If you want to go play overseas (and you can get a contract to do so), great. If you want to take a year off and work privately on your game, great.


*my goodness that makes me feel old

Do you really believe that? I mean, I understand that you could make this conclusion, but only if you read the words with an excessively literal interpretation, and at the same time close your eyes and pay no attention to the historical context of those restrictions. In the end, though, I think you have to admit that the real-world effect (and even intent) of the restriction is that it forces many kids to go to college who otherwise would not.

DukieinSoCal
03-30-2011, 11:06 AM
I thought I remember reading that Plumlee wanted to play with both of his brothers for one year?

I thought I heard that somewhere, also, but then I heard more recently that Mason might leave so that his brothers could get more playing time next year. While that might help Miles since he's a senior, it might be a disservice to Marshall if he's not ready to play significant minutes yet. And even if Mason stayed, it seems like coach K liked playing him and Miles together quite a bit, anyways.

Can anyone confirm or refute these rumors?

johnb
03-30-2011, 11:15 AM
Mason might leave so that his brothers could get more playing time next year.
Can anyone confirm or refute these rumors?


I'd think he'd be more concerned about being ready to guard Amar'e Stoudamire and hit a consistent 15 foot jump shot against Dwight Howard than trying to ensure minutes for his younger brother, but I don't really know

El_Diablo
03-30-2011, 11:19 AM
we might be getting carried away with specifics. Maybe there ARE certain requirements to get a screen actor's guild card, however, they're not going to require a certain age or education.


my main point is that basketball in the NBA is all about entertainment. And there should not be academic restrictions on athletes wanting to play if they're ready to entertain.

As pfrduke said, the NBA doesn't require, and in fact doesn't really care, whether the players get an education or not. The rule exists to help teams avoid sinking money into the Kwame Browns of the world by giving owners the chance to see players play against legitimate competition (college or overseas) rather than against high school sophomores and juniors. This helps avoid the race to the bottom (in taking chances on unproven talents). It lets the players have more of an opportunity to mature, both emotionally and physically, and it gives them an extra year to polish their games. Finally, it lets players enter the league with established fans and built-in name recognition. There may be other reasons, but it is a purely business decision, and it makes a lot of sense from the owners' perspective.

So ultimately, it doesn't matter if it doesn't "make sense" on some abstract level for high school players who want to play now to have to wait a year. I get what you're saying, and I think everyone recognizes that it's not really "fair" to them if they're already good enough to play. But in reality, as in other aspects of life, fairness isn't the controlling factor; money is the controlling factor (since the NBA operates as a business). No one has an absolute access right to play in the NBA whenever they want. The owners have made the investment in the league, they control the purse strings, and they are parties to the collective bargaining process that approves and implements the rules. In this setting, antitrust laws fully permit the owners to protect the economic vitality of the league by placing limited, reasonable eligibility restrictions in place. And until the players union decides to invest a lot of negotiating capital in bargaining the age restriction away, it's going to remain in place.

roywhite
03-30-2011, 11:19 AM
Do you really believe that? I mean, I understand that you could make this conclusion, but only if you read the words with an excessively literal interpretation, and at the same time close your eyes and pay no attention to the historical context of those restrictions. In the end, though, I think you have to admit that the real-world effect (and even intent) of the restriction is that it forces many kids to go to college who otherwise would not.

"forces" them?

Seems to me we've discussed this issue before and eventually arrive at more or less the same impasse.

It would be better, or more honest, if there were a good alternative for a talented high school player who is not interested in college or not academically inclined. A more developed minor league system?

On the other hand, we shouldn't underestimate the appeal of big-time college basketball to good prospects, even if they do not (legally) get paid and/or don't care much about academics. Look at alll the trouble Enes Kanter went through to try to become eliigible at Kentucky, when he could have played for good money overseas.

My personal preference is the best system would be similar to what baseball offers; a prospect can sign a pro contract out of high school, or choose to go to college for at least a 3-year period. I'd be fine if that were a 2-year commitment, also.

pfrduke
03-30-2011, 11:27 AM
Do you really believe that? I mean, I understand that you could make this conclusion, but only if you read the words with an excessively literal interpretation, and at the same time close your eyes and pay no attention to the historical context of those restrictions. In the end, though, I think you have to admit that the real-world effect (and even intent) of the restriction is that it forces many kids to go to college who otherwise would not.

Well, Brandon Jennings and Jeremy Tyler would agree with me (although they certainly had different experiences forgoing college). It is certainly true that for many (more on that in a second) who would otherwise declare for the NBA at 18, college for a season is the best option. But it is not the only option.

I disagree with the notion that the rule forces "many" kids to go to college who otherwise would not. In the eleven years that early entry was in vogue, 39 high schoolers were drafted - that's 3.5 per year. This rule effects an extremely small number of people.

I've posted frequently enough on this that I feel I should make one thing clear - I don't feel passionately about the age restriction. If the NBA wanted to do away with it tomorrow, I wouldn't care. It would be perfectly reasonable for the league to decide it doesn't want an age limit. But I also think it's perfectly reasonable for the NBA to decide it does want an age limit, and the notion that it's somehow "unfair" for a profession to impose barriers to entry is, in my opinion, way overblown.

rotogod00
03-30-2011, 11:49 AM
I thought I heard that somewhere, also, but then I heard more recently that Mason might leave so that his brothers could get more playing time next year. While that might help Miles since he's a senior, it might be a disservice to Marshall if he's not ready to play significant minutes yet. And even if Mason stayed, it seems like coach K liked playing him and Miles together quite a bit, anyways.

Can anyone confirm or refute these rumors?

Chad Ford is the one who said that

airowe
03-30-2011, 12:17 PM
I thought I heard that somewhere, also, but then I heard more recently that Mason might leave so that his brothers could get more playing time next year. While that might help Miles since he's a senior, it might be a disservice to Marshall if he's not ready to play significant minutes yet. And even if Mason stayed, it seems like coach K liked playing him and Miles together quite a bit, anyways.

Can anyone confirm or refute these rumors?

Mason will not leave Duke so his brothers can get more playing time. How does that make sense to anyone? (Not talking to you, but the person who said it)

I'd be surprised if Mason left early after this season. I would not be surprised if Kyrie left. I also wouldn't be surprised if he came back.

matts83
03-30-2011, 12:26 PM
So does anyone else have that feeling that the next time you open ESPN, or refresh the boards you will see the title…. “Kyrie declares for the NBA or Kyrie will be back for another year”? It’s that anticipation of waiting for an answer. Just like when we all speculated on if Kyrie would play again… Yeah I would love to see him come back but right now this is whats on a lot of Duke fans mind...well this and watching Austin Rivers playing tonight in the McDonald game.

NSDukeFan
03-30-2011, 12:30 PM
So does anyone else have that feeling that the next time you open ESPN, or refresh the boards you will see the title…. “Kyrie declares for the NBA or Kyrie will be back for another year”? It’s that anticipation of waiting for an answer. Just like when we all speculated on if Kyrie would play again… Yeah I would love to see him come back but right now this is whats on a lot of Duke fans mind...well this and watching Austin Rivers playing tonight in the McDonald game.

I believe that is the reason for the thread title.

bluepenguin
03-30-2011, 02:14 PM
I'd be surprised if Mason left early after this season. I would not be surprised if Kyrie left. I also wouldn't be surprised if he came back.IIRC when KI injured his toe you were one of the first to post that you heard he was fine and there was nothing to worry about.
Just saying...:)

timmy c
03-30-2011, 02:33 PM
Chad Ford posted the following during his chat today...


Ty (Atlanta, GA)


Will Kyrie Irving leave Duke for the draft Chad?

Chad Ford (2:37 PM)


All signs point to yes. I think we'll hear something either this weekend or after the NCAA Tournament ends on Monday.

http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/37675/nba-insider-chad-ford

WakeDevil
03-30-2011, 02:51 PM
As a libertarian-minded person and a believer in the free market - which isn't always the same as being a capitalist - I find it disturbing that so many are willing to deny these players the opportunities to decide their futures.

As an owner of a professional sports franchise, I would never engage in what amounts to restraint of trade.

sporthenry
03-30-2011, 03:18 PM
Well it appears Kyrie got a new twitter and will be going home this weekend. I'd have to say that him not being on campus and a decision being imminent is a bad sign. Although I will say that I started to buy into some hope that he would be back with the lockout but now my expectations are coming back to earth.

Matches
03-30-2011, 03:20 PM
As a libertarian-minded person and a believer in the free market - which isn't always the same as being a capitalist - I find it disturbing that so many are willing to deny these players the opportunities to decide their futures.

As an owner of a professional sports franchise, I would never engage in what amounts to restraint of trade.

Though in general I think I agree with you, it's a little more involved than simple restraint of trade. If we're going to posit the notion that the NBA cannot, as an organization, impose limits on who its member organizations may employ, philosophically we also have to get rid of collective bargaining, salary caps, revenue sharing, and many other ideas designed to maintain the league's stability and competitive balance, and provide the best overall situation for the players.

Sports leagues don't really work in a totally free market, because there are plenty of occasions where the most profitable thing is not the best thing for the team on the court/ field. The Florida Marlins are a wonderfully run organization in terms of keeping costs down and maximizing their profits - not so much if evaluated by wins and losses.

meloveduke
03-30-2011, 03:22 PM
Chad Ford posted the following during his chat today...



http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/chat/_/id/37675/nba-insider-chad-ford

yeah and everyone on espn's staff said countless times he would not play another game this year. "daddy shut him down."

I think with the NBA lockout being talked about like it will happen, I think he comes back just to make sure he can play and not have to deal with the bs. I mean lets face it, top three this year or top three next year I dont think it matters that much. Well thats just me, and I dont have worry about it like he does.

airowe
03-30-2011, 03:23 PM
IIRC when KI injured his toe you were one of the first to post that you heard he was fine and there was nothing to worry about.
Just saying...:)

This is very true. Trust me at your own peril!

meloveduke
03-30-2011, 03:24 PM
Well it appears Kyrie got a new twitter and will be going home this weekend. I'd have to say that him not being on campus and a decision being imminent is a bad sign.

all that tells you is he wants to be face to face to talk about what he can or should do next year. I mean it is over the weekend, I would be more worried if he missed classes to go talk to dad.....

SuperTurkey
03-30-2011, 03:25 PM
Well it appears Kyrie got a new twitter and will be going home this weekend. I'd have to say that him not being on campus and a decision being imminent is a bad sign.

On the other hand, he retweeted this yesterday:


@RealKyrieIrving Can I get a retweet to how much it would mean to all the Duke fans if u came back for you sophomore year!

Would be kind of cruel for him to retweet that if he had already made up his mind to leave.

airowe
03-30-2011, 03:27 PM
This is from 6 hours ago.: http://twitter.com/#!/TheDevilsDen/status/53089718363099136


Meetings re NBA stock/decisions not happening in Durham yet. No real sense of urgency either

Chad Ford has contacts, I'll give him that. Kyrie hasn't made a decision at this time though.

_Gary
03-30-2011, 03:28 PM
Well it appears Kyrie got a new twitter and will be going home this weekend. I'd have to say that him not being on campus and a decision being imminent is a bad sign.

That's not surprising. It's a huge decision so of course he'd want to talk to his parents about it face to face. I wish I could say I think there's a decent chance he'll be coming back, but my heart tells me the odds are probably 99.99% that he goes pro.

I can't emphasize enough how phenomenal I think this kid is. I've followed Duke bball for almost 30 years now and I still think Kyrie is the best pg I've ever seen Coach K get. I know that's high praise considering all the great ones we've had. I also know that we didn't even get to see him for one full season, but I still think he's the best we've ever gotten. This kid was a lock for freshman of the year and would have challenged for player of the year if he hadn't gotten hurt. I'm going to miss him if he does decide to leave.

jv001
03-30-2011, 03:32 PM
This is very true. Trust me at your own peril!

I trust you, Jim Sumner and Mark Watson(BDN). Others I have my doubts. GoDuke!

licc85
03-30-2011, 03:35 PM
Well it appears Kyrie got a new twitter and will be going home this weekend. I'd have to say that him not being on campus and a decision being imminent is a bad sign. Although I will say that I started to buy into some hope that he would be back with the lockout but now my expectations are coming back to earth.

That doesn't mean anything . . all it means is that he went home to talk it over with his family. This is an important and huge decision for a 19 year old kid . . . he needs to discuss it with his family in person.

If there was no impending lockout, i'd say that 100% he's gone. Kyrie, however loves to play basketball and whether he cares to admit it or not, he loves to be in the spotlight, and he knows we love watching him play. Staying at Duke for 1 more year will mean he's on sportscenter probably 2 or 3 times a week and is a lock for 1st team-AA and probably has a great shot to win a championship. Barring a serious injury, he's still a top 5 pick next year.

If he goes pro, he will be working out in private for a few months, and then likely start for one of the worst teams in the league in a lockout shortened year, with slim chances at making the playoffs. He probably won't get paid until a new CBA is worked out either, although when he does get paid, it will be top 5 pick money. So, it just boils down to what he thinks would be better for his career and what he thinks is more important: money or the experience of playing in college at a school that has probably the most widely covered college basketball team in existence.

if you can't tell, I want him to come back, but I support w/e he and his family decide to do. I'll probably try to catch as many Kyrie games in the NBA too, no matter how bad his team is.

SupaDave
03-30-2011, 07:01 PM
Just to clear one argument up, for all of you who think getting drafted by a losing team is a deterrent well I'm here to tell you that it isn't. Usually that's factored in. Did John Wall say "Oh there's no way I'm going to the Wizards". Nope. Hell, ANY player to the Wizards. Did Blake Griffin ask for a trade from the Clippers? Nope. Do you guys even realize how bad the Bulls were before Jordan got there? Same for the Cavs with Brad Dougherty. Durant to OKC? Garnett to the Timberwolves? Going to a terrible team is pretty much expected but you also have to have the basketball balls to think that YOU can be the one to turn the program around.

Steve Francis for example didn't like where he ended up but he never took his name out of the draft - plus, that's Steve Francis, not a picture of rationale.

One of the luckiest people EVER in the draft is Tim Duncan. He fell into the world's best situation. Oh and Luke Walton.

Matches
03-30-2011, 07:24 PM
One of the luckiest people EVER in the draft is Tim Duncan. He fell into the world's best situation.

Yeah, Duncan's situation was a complete fluke brought on by David Robinson having missed the entire previous year with an injury. AND they got lucky in the lottery - the Celtics practically threw an entire season trying to position themselves to get Duncan.

The idea that Kyrie wouldn't go pro because he'd get drafted by the Cavs or the Kings or whoever? It's not like the Lakers are going to picking #1 next year. Kyrie is likely to get picked by a lousy team whenever he comes out.

NYBri
03-30-2011, 07:51 PM
On the other hand, he retweeted this yesterday:

@RealKyrieIrving Can I get a retweet to how much it would mean to all the Duke fans if u came back for you sophomore year!

Would be kind of cruel for him to retweet that if he had already made up his mind to leave.

Kyrie is coming back. Take that to the bank. :cool:

Devilsfan
03-30-2011, 08:08 PM
If he didn't move his belongings out it means he's coming back. Next year, now that's diferent topic. I really think he enjoyed his one semester in college which makes the decission a lot harder.

DevilBen02
03-30-2011, 08:39 PM
If there was no impending lockout, i'd say that 100% he's gone. Kyrie, however loves to play basketball and whether he cares to admit it or not, he loves to be in the spotlight, and he knows we love watching him play. Staying at Duke for 1 more year will mean he's on sportscenter probably 2 or 3 times a week and is a lock for 1st team-AA and probably has a great shot to win a championship. Barring a serious injury, he's still a top 5 pick next year.

If he goes pro, he will be working out in private for a few months, and then likely start for one of the worst teams in the league in a lockout shortened year, with slim chances at making the playoffs.

Along these lines, I wonder if one factor that could be considered is Kyrie's marketability in regards to endorsements. Although contract money is no small change, it seems that the superstars actually make a big chunk of their money through endorsement deals. For Kyrie, he's been seen by the public in street clothes more often than in uniform, and if there's a protracted lockout, he'll be out of the public view for even longer.

Here's hoping that he sees the possibility that another year in college, where he'll be an elite talent that the talking heads fawn over every week, will give him that superstar exposure that could open doors to bigger-money deals on top of his top-5-pick contract.

wilko
03-30-2011, 08:51 PM
I'm not going to worry about this. It'll take care of itself w/o my involvement.
Nothing I do or say will impact it's outcome in the slightest.

SMO
03-30-2011, 09:25 PM
I'm not going to worry about this. It'll take care of itself w/o my involvement.
Nothing I do or say will impact it's outcome in the slightest.

Agreed. Your time is better spent on topics you can influence, such as "Can Austin Rivers become Duke's greatest scorer ever?":D

Let's all get back to posting on the topics we can really influence.:cool:

uh_no
03-30-2011, 09:31 PM
Kyrie is coming back. Take that to the bank. :cool:

sources? please don't spread unfounded rumors

SupaDave
03-30-2011, 09:44 PM
sources? please don't spread unfounded rumors

but it's just a much a rumor that he's going to the NBA. It's all 50/50 as far as we know...

El_Diablo
03-30-2011, 09:58 PM
The idea that Kyrie wouldn't go pro because he'd get drafted by the Cavs or the Kings or whoever? It's not like the Lakers are going to picking #1 next year. Kyrie is likely to get picked by a lousy team whenever he comes out.

I get what you and SupaDave are saying. Clearly, bad teams are always going to be picking at the top of draft, so that's not going to be the sole reason that stops him from going pro.

BUT...going to a bad team could be a factor that--when combined with various other factors--might give him reason to say "I've got good friends and some unfinished business at Duke...maybe I'll just spend one more year here before taking the plunge into that stage of my life." For example, if his decision were mapped out on a scale of 1-100 (with anything above 50 meaning he'll go), then the prospect of playing for a lousy NBA team might only count for -3 or something like that. Yeah, it will be -3 whether he goes now or next year or the year after that, but if the lockout factor is -25 and some other factors come into play, that -3 might reduce a 52 to a 49 and contribute to a decision to return to Duke for one more year. Then next year, when the new CBA is in place, he has a championship ring, and he is the reigning NPOY and unanimous #1 pick, the prospect of playing for a lousy NBA team (while still unattractive) doesn't matter enough to make a difference.

Clearly it's not the determinative factor, and even if is a factor, it likely doesn't carry much weight, but you have to assume that the prospect of losing a lot of games next year is a little bit of a disincentive (however slight) for a person who takes pride in winning. And yeah, people like Jordan or Griffin might be self-confident enough to think they will be the answer to all the team's problems...but they are probably not the best examples here because they didn't go pro after their freshman year. They had other reasons to stay in college for an extra year or two, which Kyrie may or may not have as well, especially with the lockout looming.

lotusland
03-30-2011, 10:14 PM
sources? please don't spread unfounded rumors

I'm always surprised when no one asks for sources or a link when someone posts "9F" on here.

El_Diablo
03-30-2011, 10:15 PM
Switching gears a little bit...

Kyrie might be the top pick if Cleveland wins the lottery (the Cavs will likely have like a 1 in 4 chance of picking first), but they could go after someone like Derrick Williams instead (or local favorite Sullinger, if he changes his mind, and if they ignore what happened with their last hometown hero!). The Wizards could get the top pick again, but they're not going to draft another PG. Minnesota might decide to wait for Rubio rather than draft another PG. Sacramento has Evans. Looking at the current lottery teams, in descending order:

Cleveland
Minnesota
Washington
Toronto
Sacramento
New Jersey
Detroit
LA Clippers
Milwaukee
Golden State
Charlotte
Utah
Phoenix
Houston

..which teams--if winning the lottery--would realistically place a premium on getting a PG with that pick, as opposed to filling another position of need? I'm looking to avoid the generic "Kyrie is good enough for any team to draft #1" response if possible. :cool:

superdave
03-30-2011, 10:18 PM
Just to clear one argument up, for all of you who think getting drafted by a losing team is a deterrent well I'm here to tell you that it isn't. Usually that's factored in. Did John Wall say "Oh there's no way I'm going to the Wizards". Nope. Hell, ANY player to the Wizards. Did Blake Griffin ask for a trade from the Clippers? Nope. Do you guys even realize how bad the Bulls were before Jordan got there? Same for the Cavs with Brad Dougherty. Durant to OKC? Garnett to the Timberwolves? Going to a terrible team is pretty much expected but you also have to have the basketball balls to think that YOU can be the one to turn the program around.

Steve Francis for example didn't like where he ended up but he never took his name out of the draft - plus, that's Steve Francis, not a picture of rationale.

One of the luckiest people EVER in the draft is Tim Duncan. He fell into the world's best situation. Oh and Luke Walton.

Didn't Danny Ferry go to Italy rather than the Clippers? Andrew Luck may have been swayed to stay in school rather than go to the Panthers. Those are the only two counters I could think of.

turnandburn55
03-30-2011, 10:37 PM
Didn't Danny Ferry go to Italy rather than the Clippers? Andrew Luck may have been swayed to stay in school rather than go to the Panthers. Those are the only two counters I could think of.

Then again, you could also sulk and whine that you really, REALLY don't wanna play for the team that drafts you and get traded elsewhere... patented by John Elway and most recently employed by Eli Manning.

sagegrouse
03-30-2011, 10:44 PM
Didn't Danny Ferry go to Italy rather than the Clippers? Andrew Luck may have been swayed to stay in school rather than go to the Panthers. Those are the only two counters I could think of.

Steve Francis was drafted by the then Vancouver Grizzlies and threw a disgraceful tantrum. I think his posse couldn't leave the country, or if they did, would never be allowed back in. That resulted in a trade to, I believe, the Rockets.

sagegrouse

J4Kop99
03-30-2011, 10:53 PM
Then again, you could also sulk and whine that you really, REALLY don't wanna play for the team that drafts you and get traded elsewhere... patented by John Elway and most recently employed by Eli Manning.

In between those two, Kobe Bryant pulled that maneuver as well.

Kobe's may be the most diffuclt too, since he wasn't going number #1. He still found his way to LA.

Kedsy
03-30-2011, 10:55 PM
Minnesota might decide to wait for Rubio rather than draft another PG. Sacramento has Evans. ...

I'm not a GM, but Minnesota isn't waiting for Rubio. And Evans wouldn't keep Sacramento from drafting a PG if they thought he was the best player available. I mean, they're playing Beno Udrih 35 minutes a game this season and Kyrie would certainly be a major upgrade there. I agree the Wizards probably wouldn't take Kyrie, and maybe not the Nets if they lock up Deron Williams, but I think most teams would just take the best player and worry about their current personnel later.

DallasDevil
03-30-2011, 11:03 PM
I'm not a GM, but Minnesota isn't waiting for Rubio. And Evans wouldn't keep Sacramento from drafting a PG if they thought he was the best player available. I mean, they're playing Beno Udrih 35 minutes a game this season and Kyrie would certainly be a major upgrade there. I agree the Wizards probably wouldn't take Kyrie, and maybe not the Nets if they lock up Deron Williams, but I think most teams would just take the best player and worry about their current personnel later.

The Nets no longer own that the pick, the Jazz do. And they would be more than willing to pick Irving to replace D-Will.

tommy
03-30-2011, 11:03 PM
Switching gears a little bit...

Kyrie might be the top pick if Cleveland wins the lottery (the Cavs will likely have like a 1 in 4 chance of picking first), but they could go after someone like Derrick Williams instead (or local favorite Sullinger, if he changes his mind, and if they ignore what happened with their last hometown hero!). The Wizards could get the top pick again, but they're not going to draft another PG. Minnesota might decide to wait for Rubio rather than draft another PG. Sacramento has Evans. Looking at the current lottery teams, in descending order:

Cleveland
Minnesota
Washington
Toronto
Sacramento
New Jersey
Detroit
LA Clippers
Milwaukee
Golden State
Charlotte
Utah
Phoenix
Houston

..which teams--if winning the lottery--would realistically place a premium on getting a PG with that pick, as opposed to filling another position of need? I'm looking to avoid the generic "Kyrie is good enough for any team to draft #1" response if possible. :cool:

Of course, Kyrie will have to make his decision long before the draft order is known.

Most, but certainly not all of those teams with the best chance to get the #1 pick have a significant need at point guard. Here's how I'd run them down:

Cleveland: major need, but they have major needs all over the court

Minnesota: I think they're over their Rubio obsession, and the fans (those remaining) certainly are, and Jonny Flynn doesn't look like the answer, so they could be interested

Washington: Has Wall.

Toronto: definite need. Jose Calderon and Jerryd Bayless are the points they have. (sidebar: how is Bayless not a much better NBA player??)

Sacramento: realizing that Tyreke Evans is not a point guard, so I'd say they feel a need. But I could easily see them going big again to pair, say, Sullinger with Cousins.

New Jersey: has Deron Williams

Detroit: definite need

LA Clippers: has Mo Williams, has greater needs than PG

Milwaukee: has Brandon Jennings

Golden State: Steph Curry

Charlotte: definite need. DJ Augustin is not the guy.

Utah: Devin Harris. Has bigger needs.

Phoenix: Nash can't go on forever. If they had the chance, I could see them drafting PG.

Houston: definite need. I mean, Kyle Lowry?

Jackson
03-30-2011, 11:05 PM
When is the deadline to declare for the draft and also does anyone know the time frame when the NBA would announce a lockout if that occurs?

El_Diablo
03-30-2011, 11:18 PM
Kedsy: Rubio's buyout supposedly drops to about $1.4 million after this season (as opposed to over $8 million when he was drafted), so it might happen. Not saying it will, but it might finally make some semblance of economic sense for them to bring him in next season and pair him with a top-flight player at another position rather than get another PG.

Dallas: Good catch on the Nets pick.

tommy: Thanks! I kind of stopped following the NBA recently and wasn't quite sure which teams will likely prioritize a new PG over the best big man or best wing.

Kedsy
03-30-2011, 11:23 PM
Kedsy: Rubio's buyout supposedly drops to about $1.4 million after this season (as opposed to over $8 million when he was drafted), so it might happen. Not saying it will, but it might finally make some semblance of economic sense for them to bring him in next season and pair him with a top-flight player at another position rather than get another PG.

Possibly, but from what I read, Rubio doesn't want to play there. Money talks, I suppose, but if I were a Timberwolves fan I wouldn't be holding my breath for Rubio. I think it's more likely the Wolves trade his rights.

Also, from what I read the Clippers aren't wedded to Mo Williams and the Jazz aren't so attached to Devin Harris. For those teams, as for most, I think it comes down to who they think is the best player available.

Also, after Chris Paul and Deron Williams slipped in their draft, I expect a lot of teams would be afraid of passing up on a top notch PG, for fear of getting roasted by the fans and the press.

COYS
03-30-2011, 11:26 PM
I'm not a GM, but Minnesota isn't waiting for Rubio. And Evans wouldn't keep Sacramento from drafting a PG if they thought he was the best player available. I mean, they're playing Beno Udrih 35 minutes a game this season and Kyrie would certainly be a major upgrade there. I agree the Wizards probably wouldn't take Kyrie, and maybe not the Nets if they lock up Deron Williams, but I think most teams would just take the best player and worry about their current personnel later.

Also, Rubio's stock has fallen a bit after he has struggled a bit more than expected in Europe. I think everyone still sees him as an NBA player and a potential star, but Kyrie has probably eclipsed him a little. I think the Evans as point guard experiment is over in Sacro, for sure. I'm sure they'd love to see someone with Kyrie's combo of speed, shooting, and court vision run alongside Evans and Cousins (even if running isn't one of Cousin's . . . ahem . . . strengths). Totally agree that the Kings would take him and happily plant Udrih on the bench (and honestly, Udrih is not a bad backup).

tommy
03-31-2011, 01:27 AM
Also, after Chris Paul and Deron Williams slipped in their draft, I expect a lot of teams would be afraid of passing up on a top notch PG, for fear of getting roasted by the fans and the press.

Slipped?? They were taken #3 and #4 in the draft. First two guards taken.

As an aside, sure, Williams and Paul would be the first two taken if a do-over could be had of that lousy 2005 draft. Next few would be, in some order, Danny Granger, Andrew Bynum, Monta Ellis, David Lee, and then I guess Bogut and Felton, and then a steeeeep dropoff.

bjornolf
03-31-2011, 02:50 AM
Um, crazy question, but I just read Kyrie's dad's quote on the front page, and he said Kyrie had gone home to talk it over with his family, and it could take a month to decide. Um, if he's considering coming back at all, shouldn't he be going to class and discussing things with his parents over the phone?

Duke: A Dynasty
03-31-2011, 02:57 AM
Um, crazy question, but I just read Kyrie's dad's quote on the front page, and he said Kyrie had gone home to talk it over with his family, and it could take a month to decide. Um, if he's considering coming back at all, shouldn't he be going to class and discussing things with his parents over the phone?

Its called going home to visit for a weekend or over a break then coming back to school. It says the decision could take a month, not he is going to be at home for a month.

Duke: A Dynasty
03-31-2011, 03:00 AM
Of course, Kyrie will have to make his decision long before the draft order is known.

Most, but certainly not all of those teams with the best chance to get the #1 pick have a significant need at point guard. Here's how I'd run them down:

Cleveland: major need, but they have major needs all over the court

Minnesota: I think they're over their Rubio obsession, and the fans (those remaining) certainly are, and Jonny Flynn doesn't look like the answer, so they could be interested

Washington: Has Wall.

Toronto: definite need. Jose Calderon and Jerryd Bayless are the points they have. (sidebar: how is Bayless not a much better NBA player??)

Sacramento: realizing that Tyreke Evans is not a point guard, so I'd say they feel a need. But I could easily see them going big again to pair, say, Sullinger with Cousins.

New Jersey: has Deron Williams

Detroit: definite need

LA Clippers: has Mo Williams, has greater needs than PG

Milwaukee: has Brandon Jennings

Golden State: Steph Curry

Charlotte: definite need. DJ Augustin is not the guy.
Utah: Devin Harris. Has bigger needs.

Phoenix: Nash can't go on forever. If they had the chance, I could see them drafting PG.

Houston: definite need. I mean, Kyle Lowry?

They may need a pg but it should not be the number 1 need. DJ has played well most of the season and we traded away Wallace our SF so I would say replacing him is more of a necessity than pg right now.

Matches
03-31-2011, 05:59 AM
They may need a pg but it should not be the number 1 need. DJ has played well most of the season and we traded away Wallace our SF so I would say replacing him is more of a necessity than pg right now.

Derrick Williams would be hugely attractive to the Bobcats if they were to luck into the #1 pick (or #2).

Irving would likely be a big upgrade over DJ, though.

CajunDevil
03-31-2011, 08:45 AM
Because I am dying to see a backcourt of Kyrie and Austin... here is today's moment of zen from Kyrie's Twitter feed...

"Another day being a duke student...class and then nap time!!"

Kedsy
03-31-2011, 08:54 AM
Slipped?? They were taken #3 and #4 in the draft. First two guards taken.

And the teams who drafted #1 and #2 have been kicking themselves ever since. Atlanta fans still talk about it with anger in their voices (I suppose in large part because they had the poor sense to select a Tar Heel). And then in the next draft, Brandon Roy (#6) and Rajon Rondo (#21) have outshone everyone taken in front of them (Roy's recent injury notwithstanding). I don't think it's a coincidence that PGs were taken first in 2 of the last 3 drafts, and that in the middle year (2009) five PGs were among the top ten.

COYS
03-31-2011, 09:25 AM
And the teams who drafted #1 and #2 have been kicking themselves ever since. Atlanta fans still talk about it with anger in their voices (I suppose in large part because they had the poor sense to select a Tar Heel). And then in the next draft, Brandon Roy (#6) and Rajon Rondo (#21) have outshone everyone taken in front of them (Roy's recent injury notwithstanding). I don't think it's a coincidence that PGs were taken first in 2 of the last 3 drafts, and that in the middle year (2009) five PGs were among the top ten.

We Atlanta fans REALLY, REALLY hate thinking of what our team could have done over the past few years minus Marvin Williams and plus Chris Paul or Deron Williams.

Reilly
03-31-2011, 09:33 AM
...
"Another day being a duke student...class and then nap time!!"

Well that right there brings back some memories. I still maintain it wasn't sloth, but the suffocating steam pouring from the old radiators in Pegram that induced coma ....

duke79
03-31-2011, 09:38 AM
Just a hunch (and based on absolutely NO facts or information), but I'm thinking Kyrie will come back for his sophomore year. I have to believe he feels unfulfilled with the way his season went and with the disappointing loss in the tournament. He appears to be a stand-up kid and and I'm guessing would like to make amends for this past season for both himself and Duke. I bet he would also relish playing with Austin Rivers for a season. Admittedly, there is a lot of money to give up by coming back and always the possibility of a career-ending injury, but I still think he will take that risk and be in a Duke uniform next season. Let's hope so !!!

UrinalCake
03-31-2011, 09:50 AM
If Kyrie wants to play in an NBA backcourt next year, he should stay at Duke :)

SuperTurkey
03-31-2011, 10:06 AM
If Kyrie wants to play in an NBA backcourt next year, he should stay at Duke :)

I agree with the UrinalCake on this one.

That's a sentence I never thought I'd write.

sdotbarbee
03-31-2011, 10:33 AM
Just a hunch (and based on absolutely NO facts or information), but I'm thinking Kyrie will come back for his sophomore year. I have to believe he feels unfulfilled with the way his season went and with the disappointing loss in the tournament. He appears to be a stand-up kid and and I'm guessing would like to make amends for this past season for both himself and Duke. I bet he would also relish playing with Austin Rivers for a season. Admittedly, there is a lot of money to give up by coming back and always the possibility of a career-ending injury, but I still think he will take that risk and be in a Duke uniform next season. Let's hope so !!!

Plus the impending lockout, if they do lock the players out he will spend a season working out with trainers as opposed to playing basketball at a high college level.

duke79
03-31-2011, 11:17 AM
Plus the impending lockout, if they do lock the players out he will spend a season working out with trainers as opposed to playing basketball at a high college level.

Yea, I meant to mention that too. It has to be another factor in his thinking and one that portends well for his returning to Duke.

El_Diablo
03-31-2011, 11:43 AM
Plus the impending lockout, if they do lock the players out he will spend a season working out with trainers as opposed to playing basketball at a high college level.

But not with the team's trainers (a lockout means the players are also physically cut off from the team, its facilities, its doctors and trainers, etc.). He'd have to hire his own trainers and find a place to work out.

dukenilnil
03-31-2011, 12:23 PM
Not sure if it's been mentioned or not, but a lot of the discussion on leaving early vs. staying seems to be centered on fear/risk of injury.

Why not take a book out of M. Leinhart, A. Luck boook and get an insurance policy? First, the NCAA offers one. Second, Lloyds of London and others offer unusual policies.

He could even double up and get an injury policy in case he can't compete and second a loss of draft stock policy (Leinhart got one) that protects him if he falls from 1st to say 10th or lower.

Obviously, this requires a liquid cash situation now, and that is a decision his family has to make, but it secures against future loss of income.

I was never fortunate enough to be in Kryie or any of the other athletes shoes regarding early entry, but I firmly believe, if given the choice, I'd happily purchase an insurance policy and stay in college 4 years. College can't be replicated and the insurance policy is a virtual guarantee of millions of dollars regardless of outcome in college. Thus, you can freely play college ball, have the time of your life w/o real world pressures, and know that your financial future is secure whether you maintain your draft stock or fall out of favor for one reason or another.

dcdevil2009
03-31-2011, 12:29 PM
From what I can remember, the guys I can remember who got insurance policies were seniors (Luck, Leinart, and Willis Mcgahee). Does it matter for insurance policy purposes that Kyrie technically has an indefinite amount of time left as an amateur? I would think that there would be some eligibility issues if he were to get a one year insurance policy, implying he's leaving at the end of the year.

El_Diablo
03-31-2011, 12:38 PM
From what I can remember, the guys I can remember who got insurance policies were seniors (Luck, Leinart, and Willis Mcgahee). Does it matter for insurance policy purposes that Kyrie technically has an indefinite amount of time left as an amateur? I would think that there would be some eligibility issues if he were to get a one year insurance policy, implying he's leaving at the end of the year.

Not necessarily. Lots of insurance policies have to be renewed annually.

Regardless, there's nothing wrong with someone implying that he's going to go pro in the future.

duke79
03-31-2011, 01:41 PM
Not necessarily. Lots of insurance policies have to be renewed annually.

Regardless, there's nothing wrong with someone implying that he's going to go pro in the future.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/sports/football/22nfl.html

Here's a link to a 2007 story in the NY Times about elite college athletes buying disability policies in case they get injured during their college careers. As the article notes, these policies are expensive - about 1% per year of the face amount and possibly higher, depending on the sport the athlete plays. For example, a $5 million disability policy might cost $50,000 to $100,000 per year. Apparently, many athlete's families have to borrow the money to pay the premium, with the thought that they pay back the loan when the athlete signs a lucarative pro contract.

wilko
03-31-2011, 01:46 PM
Let's all get back to posting on the topics we can really influence.:cool:

Nicely Done, but the larger point stands. Why get worked up over nothing in the name of entertainment. I prefer entertainment be joyful and not torment me.

dukenilnil
03-31-2011, 03:11 PM
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/22/sports/football/22nfl.html

Here's a link to a 2007 story in the NY Times about elite college athletes buying disability policies in case they get injured during their college careers. As the article notes, these policies are expensive - about 1% per year of the face amount and possibly higher, depending on the sport the athlete plays. For example, a $5 million disability policy might cost $50,000 to $100,000 per year. Apparently, many athlete's families have to borrow the money to pay the premium, with the thought that they pay back the loan when the athlete signs a lucarative pro contract.

Interesting article. While the numbers seem high, in the scheme of things, 1% of the value of a contract is pretty slim. Plus, (a tax expert might be able to help here) but I believe disability insurance premiums are deductable to an extent. Assuming the parents are paying, then that helps reduce the burden. Mostly, it's a short term loss to (virtually) guarantee a large payday.

The article also focused on football. I'd be interested in how much different the rates were for bball players. I'd imagine they'd be significantly lower as the risk factor is much lower (assuming rate = risk factor * premium).
A complicating factor may be Kyrie's toe. That may push his rates up higher.

duke79
03-31-2011, 04:13 PM
Interesting article. While the numbers seem high, in the scheme of things, 1% of the value of a contract is pretty slim. Plus, (a tax expert might be able to help here) but I believe disability insurance premiums are deductable to an extent. Assuming the parents are paying, then that helps reduce the burden. Mostly, it's a short term loss to (virtually) guarantee a large payday.

The article also focused on football. I'd be interested in how much different the rates were for bball players. I'd imagine they'd be significantly lower as the risk factor is much lower (assuming rate = risk factor * premium).
A complicating factor may be Kyrie's toe. That may push his rates up higher.

Yea, I'm in the insurance/financial services business and I've dealt with these type of policies in a few cases. The premiums are usually not tax deductible but the benefits, if collected, would be income tax free (because, the IRS reasons, the policy was bought with after-tax money). I'm guessing too that the premiums for basketball players are lower than for football players because of lesser risk of career-ending injury, but the policies are still expensive. But, for someone like Kyrie, who, if he returns to play college basketball and remains healthy, is almost assured of a multi-million dollar pro contract would probably be foolish NOT to buy some type of disability policy to protect his financial interest (assuming his family can somehow swing the cost of the premium), if he suffers a career-ending injury in college. As the article notes, most of these policies pay out, though, only if the athlete suffers a severe injury that prevents him from ever playing professionally. Depending on how the policy is worded, it may be difficult to collect on one of these policies if you suffer an injury that just lowers your marketability as a pro - i.e., you are drafted lower than you would have been prior to an injury. Any athlete who is buying one of these policies should have a knowledgeable financial advisor and attorney review the contract to fully understand how they work and under what conditions they pay out. As the article notes, there have actually been very few instances where these policies have paid out full benefits to the athletes.

Faison1
03-31-2011, 04:42 PM
Interesting article. While the numbers seem high, in the scheme of things, 1% of the value of a contract is pretty slim. Plus, (a tax expert might be able to help here) but I believe disability insurance premiums are deductable to an extent. Assuming the parents are paying, then that helps reduce the burden. Mostly, it's a short term loss to (virtually) guarantee a large payday.

The article also focused on football. I'd be interested in how much different the rates were for bball players. I'd imagine they'd be significantly lower as the risk factor is much lower (assuming rate = risk factor * premium).
A complicating factor may be Kyrie's toe. That may push his rates up higher.

It's also interesting that the article focused on Brian Brohm, who was considered a sure-fire first rounder, with limitless potential. He decided to come back for his senior year. In the 2008 draft, he dropped to the second round, then got cut by the Packers in 2009......I'm assuming without a "First-Round Guarantee" type contract.

DukieinSoCal
03-31-2011, 04:50 PM
In Chad Ford's latest blog entry on espn, he reports that "sources" tell him Kyrie is all but gone. I wonder who his "sources" are exactly. I'm losing hope but won't give up until we hear it straight from Kyrie's mouth.

Maybe we should just flat out lie to our players like Roy is apparently doing. In the same blog entry, Ford reports that Roy told Barnes that he would likely go anywhere from 5-11 in the draft. What a joke. Barnes will go anywhere from 1-5 according to any draft site. Even Ford says he will probably go in the top 3.