Announcers: Love 'em. Hate 'em. Or not...

[AtlDuke72]

Len Elmore reached a new low yesterday. His comment that Singler complained because he got caught was ludicrous. Singler complained because he literally did not touch the guy which you can see for yourself if you view the sequence frame by frame. (The beauty of DVR). His spiel on "toughness" went on endlessly and was ridiculous. Even Mike Patrick, who is generally willing to put up with any BS from his partner, called him down about his comment on the intentional foul. The only semi-good thing you can say about Elmore is that he seems to hate all the teams except the Terps equally. The only defense to this guy is the mute button.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

I usually just ignore Len, or if he is in a bad enough mood I put on 620 and mute the TV.

There were a couple of moments I did notice yesterday, though. I don't remember what they were talking about, but I remember Patrick referring to Len's playing career. Len didn't even respond, there was just silence. It seemed like Patrick got under Len's skin.

Anyway, the thing about Len is he just comes across as such a miserable curmudgeon. He doesn't seem to enjoy broadcasting or want to be there. He just isn't enjoyable to listen to. I don't mind his MD heritage, but he doesn't even seem to enjoy MD basketball he just enjoys hating on everybody else in the ACC.

[dalmatians98]

I thought that most of Len Elmore's comments about toughness yesterday were directed at the Wake Forest players. A couple of times Wake players didn't scrap hard enough for the ball and he remarked on that fact. I didn't come away with the sense that he felt the same way about Duke, but perhaps you heard some things I didn't.

I guess I'm one of the people here who just isn't bothered that much by him.

[DukeGirl4ever]

Sgt., didn't Patrick say something about Len getting in to one or two shoving matches during his career?

I agree yesterday was very hard to listen to him. His comments were borderline crazy in regards to the tired legs, the "fighting back" by Wake players, and the Singler comment (I forgot about that one).
He also kept harping on how this game was a step in the right direction for Wake Forest and that they had hit rock bottom the game before. He then tried to berate one of the Wake players insinuating that he was faking being hurt. To top it off, he tried to use really intelligent words at the most random times that just made him sound like he was trying to look like a hot shot announcer.

Give me Dickie V any day. I know a lot of you don't like him, but the guy is passionate about basketball. Elmore is a Negative Nancy....I'd rather listen to someone who enjoys a good play and goes crazy about it than someone who is constantly nagging about something.

[78Devil]

I have never understood the view from this BB that Elmore is biased against Duke. I just don't see it, and I never have. He tells it like it is, and when he has said things about Duke, they are usually right. He is -- in general -- against the tendency to gush about any team, and tends to point out all teams' weakenesses. As a former big man, he also has a soft spot for the inside game, which is usually not Duke's strength. But I never detect a bias against Duke as a school, against its players or against its coach.

I find Elmore interesting, educated and erudite. I like him in combination with Mike Patrick, who IS gushing. The two of them are a nice contrast.

[Bluedevil114]

What was driving me crazy is the start of the second half maybe about 4 minutes in they were speaking of Tyler starting and the reasons why he may deserve to start the half. Mike started the conversation and I just began to shake my head then Elmore a minute later started speaking of why Tyler started the half because of his defense.

Sad part of it all was that Tyler did not start the second half. He came in for Dawkins and was the first off the bench but these two really just talk and do not give any real good insight on the game. They surely do not pay attention.

[hurleyfor3]

I have never understood the view from this BB that Elmore is biased against Duke. I just don't see it, and I never have.

Elmore just isn't paying attention half the time. When Grant Hill was inbounding against Kentucky with 2.1 seconds left, he suggested we get it to midcourt and call timeout. Too bad we didn't have any timeouts left. (That was a pet Dean Smith strategy, but I don't ever remember K doing it.)

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

What was driving me crazy is the start of the second half maybe about 4 minutes in they were speaking of Tyler starting and the reasons why he may deserve to start the half. Mike started the conversation and I just began to shake my head then Elmore a minute later started speaking of why Tyler started the half because of his defense.

Sad part of it all was that Tyler did not start the second half. He came in for Dawkins and was the first off the bench but these two really just talk and do not give any real good insight on the game. They surely do not pay attention.

Exactly, I noticed that. Dawkins gave up a wiiiiiiiide open 3 to Clark, where Clark had alllllll day to set his feet, adjust his shorts, wipe the sweat off his brow and then drain the 3. He got yanked within a minute of the second half starting.

[bluepenguin]

I have never understood the view from this BB that Elmore is biased against Duke. I just don't see it, and I never have. He tells it like it is, and when he has said things about Duke, they are usually right. He is -- in general -- against the tendency to gush about any team, and tends to point out all teams' weakenesses. As a former big man, he also has a soft spot for the inside game, which is usually not Duke's strength. But I never detect a bias against Duke as a school, against its players or against its coach.

I find Elmore interesting, educated and erudite. I like him in combination with Mike Patrick, who IS gushing. The two of them are a nice contrast.
I understand everyone has his preference regarding announcers. They each have their plusses and minuses. But to say you have never seen a bias against Duke, I find rather hard to believe. Even if you find him interesting, educated and erudite (really????), I think if you listen without the bias you have against those who disagree with your opinion, you may hear some bias against Duke. For example, I remember listening to a game he did last year and counting the number of times he pointed out a call that went in Duke's favor and a call that went in the opponent's favor. He had several comments about Duke getting a break, but never once did he point out when the opponent benefitted from a bad call. We all know that Duke doesn't get every call. So while he may have been correct in the particular calls he pointed out, by not pointing them out against the opponent, he is showing a bias against Duke.

[johnb]

I thought the issue about Wake's toughness was odd, especially when Elmore was most focused on a Wake player who still seemed groggy several minutes after the play in which he got smacked to the floor.

It's reminiscent of some past football discussions about Duke incurring penalties or turnovers when matched against nationally-ranked opponents.

In regards to Wake bball 2011 and Duke football circa 2008, there are plenty of times when the tape might indicate a lack of toughness or smarts or whatever, but the basic issue is that the teams are/were outmanned against top flight competition.

[diveonthefloor]

Elmore just isn't paying attention half the time. When Grant Hill was inbounding against Kentucky with 2.1 seconds left, he suggested we get it to midcourt and call timeout. Too bad we didn't have any timeouts left. (That was a pet Dean Smith strategy, but I don't ever remember K doing it.)

Senior day 1981....same amount of time left....Dennard receives half court pass and calls timeout. Next play, Banks ties the game at the buzzer to send to overtime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV1B2Bp0EIg

[hurleyfor3]

Senior day 1981....same amount of time left....Dennard receives half court pass and calls timeout. Next play, Banks ties the game at the buzzer to send to overtime.

Before my time. :eek: Fair enough, though. Elmore still sucks.

What is that woman wearing at 45 seconds in, btw, a wedding dress? I don't think she's a cheerleader.

[diveonthefloor]

Elmore still sucks.

.

Couldn't agree more!:cool:

[ncexnyc]

I find as much validity in this thread as I do in the ones that bash Bilas and Williams. It appears that some folks around here have a hard time stomaching anything that goes against what they believe to be true, especially if they feel someone is taking a shot at Duke.

We all don't see things the same way, but why is it so difficult to roll with a differing opinion?

[DukeGirl4ever]

I find as much validity in this thread as I do in the ones that bash Bilas and Williams. It appears that some folks around here have a hard time stomaching anything that goes against what they believe to be true, especially if they feel someone is taking a shot at Duke.

We all don't see things the same way, but why is it so difficult to roll with a differing opinion?

I don't think Elmore is anti-Duke. I think he's a horrible announcer. His thought process is a little wacky, and I feel this way when I listen to him announce any game.

If you enjoy him and agree with his opinions, great. But, don't you think his comments yesterday were a little off-base? In my previous post, I listed several things he said against BOTH teams that made no sense whatsoever. To me it has nothing to do with Duke basketball.
He is not anti-Duke; he's anti-happy! :D

[hurleyfor3]

He is not anti-Duke; he's anti-happy! :D

The morning after last year's national championship game, I was wandering around downtown Indianapolis when I saw Elmore coming the other way. I didn't say anything to him, but the 12 seconds or so when he was in my field of view was the only depressing part of that day. It was like we just capped off an 0-28 season by losing by 30 to unc. Then he went away and we went back to being national champions.

[cwiley]

I have never understood the view from this BB that Elmore is biased against Duke. I just don't see it, and I never have. He tells it like it is, and when he has said things about Duke, they are usually right. He is -- in general -- against the tendency to gush about any team, and tends to point out all teams' weakenesses. As a former big man, he also has a soft spot for the inside game, which is usually not Duke's strength. But I never detect a bias against Duke as a school, against its players or against its coach.

Totally agree. I have no problem with Elmore. I kind of like him as an announcer, in fact.

[alteran]

Elmore just isn't paying attention half the time. When Grant Hill was inbounding against Kentucky with 2.1 seconds left, he suggested we get it to midcourt and call timeout. Too bad we didn't have any timeouts left. (That was a pet Dean Smith strategy, but I don't ever remember K doing it.)

K's first year. Used it to tie, then later beat, Dean and the UNC Calvacade of Stars. There was only 2 seconds on the clock when the pass to midcourt was made.

Gene Banks last game (at Cameron). Still get goosebumps.

EDIT-- oops, someone beat me to it.

[buddy]

I find Elmore difficult to listen to. During the Kentucky game, he obviously wasn't paying attention, because if he had been he would know that Duke had no more timeouts. And he repeated the mistake after "The Shot" when he says something about "so much for the quick pass to halfcourt". I met him once, tried to tell him how my Dad (who lettered in basketball at Maryland--as a manager) appreciated his play, and he just blew me off. In contrast, when I made the same comment to Lefty, he was appreciative and entered into a lengthy conversation. (Probably helped that we were in a buffet line.)

As for the woman at 0:45, no, she is not wearing a wedding dress. Some women (students, actually) dressed that way in 1981.

And please don't flame me because Dad lettered in basketball in Maryland--I've tried hard to make up for it. (He also played lacrosse there.)

[alteran]

I don't hate Elmore as much as some, but I do think he has adequately demonstrated over the years that he's not fond of the Devils. He's long had a tendency to question a lot of calls that went Duke's way, while ignoring the reverse.

I'm so used to it that I thought he was criticizing the Wake players just because they were losing to Duke. It certainly explains why he'd be complaining about some of those things better than what actually happened on the court.

I'll grant he's mellowed over the years on that, though.

Maybe he feels a need to be the resident curmudgeon now that Mr. Cash, aka Billy Packer, is no longer handling that role.

[BobbyFan]

I generally don't have as much a problem with Elmore as some do. But he was atrocious yesterday. His "toughness" theme regarding Wake Forest and the moments he chose to bring it up (ie, Nolan had just inadvertently elbowed a Wake player in his face, who Elmore chastised for not being tough enough...until he saw the replay at which point he attempted a weak backtrack) was painful to listen to.

And don't get me started on Patrick...

[wsb3]

Senior day 1981....same amount of time left....Dennard receives half court pass and calls timeout. Next play, Banks ties the game at the buzzer to send to overtime.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aV1B2Bp0EIg

I will never forget that game and i believe what made it possible was Dean took the first time out and then Duke used their last one after they got the ball to half court. Remember the poster... Gene says good bye. Thanks for sharing.

[striker219]

The morning after last year's national championship game, I was wandering around downtown Indianapolis when I saw Elmore coming the other way. I didn't say anything to him, but the 12 seconds or so when he was in my field of view was the only depressing part of that day. It was like we just capped off an 0-28 season by losing by 30 to unc. Then he went away and we went back to being national champions.

He was probably preparing for his off-season gig.

http://images.wikia.com/es.harrypotter/images/9/9f/Dementor.jpg

(unrelated, but you have to check out the url for that picture, its great!)

[wsb3]

He turned me off years ago when he would say things like, "Well if they are going to call the game like that." Always in response to what he thought was a favorable Duke call. He does not seem to call it the same way when Duke obviously gets a bad call. He always seem to hedge like yesterday.

[-jk]

K's first year. Used it to tie, then later beat, Dean and the UNC Calvacade of Stars. There was only 2 seconds on the clock when the pass to midcourt was made.

Gene Banks last game (at Cameron). Still get goosebumps.

EDIT-- oops, someone beat me to it.

Ah, but did Perkins tip it? That was Dean's beef... ;)

-jk

[Jason W]

I have never understood the view from this BB that Elmore is biased against Duke. I just don't see it, and I never have. He tells it like it is, and when he has said things about Duke, they are usually right. He is -- in general -- against the tendency to gush about any team, and tends to point out all teams' weakenesses. As a former big man, he also has a soft spot for the inside game, which is usually not Duke's strength. But I never detect a bias against Duke as a school, against its players or against its coach.

I find Elmore interesting, educated and erudite. I like him in combination with Mike Patrick, who IS gushing. The two of them are a nice contrast.

Elmore talks about the "conspiracy" as a matter of fact. That alone shows just a little bias, don't you think?

[Kimist]

K's first year. Used it to tie, then later beat, Dean and the UNC Calvacade of Stars. There was only 2 seconds on the clock when the pass to midcourt was made.

Gene Banks last game (at Cameron). Still get goosebumps.



Not intending to hijack the thread - but a minor clarification:

The UNC game was not the last one Gene Banks played in CIS.

Duke was invited (after an ACC Tourney loss to Maryland) to participate in the NIT. The first game against NC A&T was played in CIS - where Banks took a bad fall, broke his wrist, and his college career thus ended. Duke did win the game, and a second home NIT game (Alabama) before eventually losing to Purdue (in NYC??).

k

[DUKIE V(A)]

Not intending to hijack the thread - but a minor clarification:

The UNC game was not the last one Gene Banks played in CIS.

Duke was invited (after an ACC Tourney loss to Maryland) to participate in the NIT. The first game against NC A&T was played in CIS - where Banks took a bad fall, broke his wrist, and his college career thus ended. Duke did win the game, and a second home NIT game (Alabama) before eventually losing to Purdue (in NYC??).

k

Thanks for this interesting bit of history...Your memory is on the money...I looked it up and it appears Duke was ousted in the Quarterfinals by Purdue. Purdue lost to Syracuse in the semis and eventually finished third...Such a pity that we lost in the quarters...One win away from hanging an NIT banner...:o

[ncexnyc]

I don't think Elmore is anti-Duke. I think he's a horrible announcer. His thought process is a little wacky, and I feel this way when I listen to him announce any game.

If you enjoy him and agree with his opinions, great. But, don't you think his comments yesterday were a little off-base? In my previous post, I listed several things he said against BOTH teams that made no sense whatsoever. To me it has nothing to do with Duke basketball.
He is not anti-Duke; he's anti-happy! :D

Alright, let's talk about some of the things Elmore said yesterday.
1. Tired Legs: What were Jon's stats the first 2/3's of the season compared to the last 1/3? Was there any difference? If so then Elmore is entitled to throw out what he considers is the reason. I know the tired legs thing never goes over well here, but some people do believe it.
2. Missing the Thorton for Dawkins swap: It happened quickly at the start of the second half, both Patrick and Elmore missed it, but so did the folks producing the game who are in both of their ears. I caught it, because I watched the game last night when I got home from work, I'm not so sure I would have caught it during the game, because things were tense at that point in time.
3. The Singler Foul: Len's got a dead pan delivery. I took that comment as more of a joke than anything nefarious like some on this board did.
4. Getting Tough: He mentioned this when Terrell caught the elbow in the nose and later during the scrum. The first time he was being critical of not only Terrell, but his teamates who didn't give case while Nolan headed the other way with the ball. The second time, during the scrum the game was slipping from Wake's grasp, but they were still being chippy. I don't really have a problem with what he said in this situation.

Again, I'm not sure this board likes any announcers, except for our radio crew. They bash Dickie V, Bilas, Davis, Elmore, you name em and someone dislikes them.

[moonpie23]

explain to me how the "tired legs" hurt us last year? it didn't hurt us that much...

[DukeGirl4ever]

Alright, let's talk about some of the things Elmore said yesterday.
1. Tired Legs: What were Jon's stats the first 2/3's of the season compared to the last 1/3? Was there any difference? If so then Elmore is entitled to throw out what he considers is the reason. I know the tired legs thing never goes over well here, but some people do believe it.


But was it really tiredness that bothered Jon at the end of the year? There was a big debate on here last year and many people mentioned a back issue.

http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?20328-The-Reason-for-Scheyer-s-Shooting-Struggles&highlight=Scheyer

The reason I thought the comment about tired legs was ridiculous was it was a moot point! WE WON IT ALL! How did "tired legs" hurt us down the stretch as he insinuated? If you are talking individual numbers, that's fine, but as a former athlete, I'd take that National Championship ANYDAY over a National Player of the Year award (which Jon was in that discussion mid-season last year).

It's all in how you interpret his comment. You looked at if from a numbers sense, which I can understand. Thanks for sharing your thoughts. (Still didn't persuade me to like Elmore, though :D)

I like most of the announcers for what it's worth!

[SMO]

Elmore talks about the "conspiracy" as a matter of fact. That alone shows just a little bias, don't you think?

I can confirm this. Redick's Jr or Sr year Elmore suggested Duke not only gets favorable calls, but gets them during key points during the game. His evidence? A "push off" by Redick during which we was being hugged by an opposing player during an in-bound play. The official appropriately called the foul on the opposition when Redick threw his arms straight up to try to get the guy off him. It was a clear hold by the defender, yet Elmore described it as a clear push off then suspiciously appeared on ESPN the next evening back-tracking on his suggestion that Duke gets calls during key moments. It was almost as if someone told him to put a lid on the conspiracy talk.

[jdj4duke]

It may be purely anecdotal and biased, but it does seem that every Duke game has an announcer yap about a call or two that seemed to favor Duke. Of course anyone not a Duke fan grabs onto these as their proof that we get all the calls, abundant evidence to the contrary notwithstanding.

In the NCSU game the other night, Bilas did comment on Singler nearly getting "his pants pulled off" on a late drive without a call being made, but those kinds of "pro-Duke" statements are by far the exception by any broadcasting team.

With a nod to what I think is at least a slight willingness by announcers to point out calls that could favor the Blue Devils, the second guessing of nearly every ambiguous call is certainly not limited to Duke games. It seems now that in every game I watch at least one of the announcers pops off about a call that was missed, should have been called, was called incorrectly, favored one team, or some such. Even Mike Patrick, generally a pleasant guy but a quintessential milquetoast, gets in the action by commenting on the refs. Jimmy Dykes, Elmore, and Musberger to name three repeatedly and frequently engage in second-guessing the refs.

While it may be human nature, announcers have to some degree fallen in love with trying to generate conclusions instead of just reporting the action. What they have also done is contribute to the perception that especially for certain teams, the refs never get it right. One call that favors Duke of course then proves the conspiracy that we get all the calls.

Announcers generally give some lip service to the great jobs the refs do, but questioning calls in every game contributes to feelings in some quarters that nearly every call against your team is suspect. Maybe that's a bit of an overstatement, but it might be better if the announcers just kept their gobs shut about calls with which they disagree. I don't believe that egregious ref errors should not be discussed, especially if they involve misreading or misapplying a rule. However, I am not sure that reporting play-by-play or making color commentary is necessarily enhanced by reviewing and commenting on so many specific calls.

[1999ballboy]

I can confirm this. Redick's Jr or Sr year Elmore suggested Duke not only gets favorable calls, but gets them during key points during the game. His evidence? A "push off" by Redick during which we was being hugged by an opposing player during an in-bound play. The official appropriately called the foul on the opposition when Redick threw his arms straight up to try to get the guy off him. It was a clear hold by the defender, yet Elmore described it as a clear push off then suspiciously appeared on ESPN the next evening back-tracking on his suggestion that Duke gets calls during key moments. It was almost as if someone told him to put a lid on the conspiracy talk.

This is exactly right. Elmore pretty much spearheaded the 2006 revival of the "Duke gets all the calls" discussion. It became a very big topic all over ESPN and beyond and frankly I thought it was unprofessional on the part of many analysts to treat it like a legitimate discussion. Elmore was the one I most remember thinking there was some validity to the claim that Duke gets all of the calls.

[lotusland]

Alright, let's talk about some of the things Elmore said yesterday.
1. Tired Legs: What were Jon's stats the first 2/3's of the season compared to the last 1/3? Was there any difference? If so then Elmore is entitled to throw out what he considers is the reason. I know the tired legs thing never goes over well here, but some people do believe it.
2. Missing the Thorton for Dawkins swap: It happened quickly at the start of the second half, both Patrick and Elmore missed it, but so did the folks producing the game who are in both of their ears. I caught it, because I watched the game last night when I got home from work, I'm not so sure I would have caught it during the game, because things were tense at that point in time.
3. The Singler Foul: Len's got a dead pan delivery. I took that comment as more of a joke than anything nefarious like some on this board did.
4. Getting Tough: He mentioned this when Terrell caught the elbow in the nose and later during the scrum. The first time he was being critical of not only Terrell, but his teamates who didn't give case while Nolan headed the other way with the ball. The second time, during the scrum the game was slipping from Wake's grasp, but they were still being chippy. I don't really have a problem with what he said in this situation.

Again, I'm not sure this board likes any announcers, except for our radio crew. They bash Dickie V, Bilas, Davis, Elmore, you name em and someone dislikes them.

I agree with your take. Seems like folks like to manufacture anti-Duke conspiracy's from mild subjective criticism or totally innocuous statements. Elmore makes positive comments about Duke's program, coaches and players but people only notice the criticism. Elmore's not my favorite but I don't have a problem with him. Patrick is worse IMO. I read more Duke criticism on this board than from Elmore. I just think the perpetual whining about officials and announcers is tiresome.

[BlueintheFace]

I cannot stand color commentators who focus on reffing. Len Elmore does this more than any other commentator. He is, therefore, my least favorite.

[4decadedukie]

...One win away from hanging an NIT banner...:o

Wow, just like UNC last season!
:D

[OldPhiKap]

This is exactly right. Elmore pretty much spearheaded the 2006 revival of the "Duke gets all the calls" discussion. It became a very big topic all over ESPN and beyond and frankly I thought it was unprofessional on the part of many analysts to treat it like a legitimate discussion. Elmore was the one I most remember thinking there was some validity to the claim that Duke gets all of the calls.

Agreed, this is my beef with Elmore.

[Duvall]

Again, I'm not sure this board likes any announcers, except for our radio crew.

You haven't been paying close enough attention to the discussions of Duke's radio crew.

[tallguy]

Elmore lost me for good when he said last year that Maryland was two or three plays going the opposite way from being in the game, when they were losing by 40 points.

[Highlander]

Exactly, I noticed that. Dawkins gave up a wiiiiiiiide open 3 to Clark, where Clark had alllllll day to set his feet, adjust his shorts, wipe the sweat off his brow and then drain the 3. He got yanked within a minute of the second half starting.

If it's the play I'm thinking of, I thought it was Kelly's man who got loose. He and Dawkins switched off on Clark right before, and when Dawkins's man cut towards the basket, Kelly and Dawkins both followed him while Clark curled around a double screen for a wide open 3. Definitely a miscommunication between Kelly and Dawkins that in the end left Kelly w/o a man to guard.

[wsb3]

Not intending to hijack the thread - but a minor clarification:

The UNC game was not the last one Gene Banks played in CIS.

Duke was invited (after an ACC Tourney loss to Maryland) to participate in the NIT. The first game against NC A&T was played in CIS - where Banks took a bad fall, broke his wrist, and his college career thus ended. Duke did win the game, and a second home NIT game (Alabama) before eventually losing to Purdue (in NYC??).

k

The game that Gene broke his wrist was actually the first game I ever attended in Cameron.

[-bdbd]

The game that Gene broke his wrist was actually the first game I ever attended in Cameron.

My claim to fame: It was one of those two NIT games at Cameron - Ala A&T or 'Bama - where as a student I brought a life-sized poster of a model (Cheryl Tieggs?) in a skimpy bathing suit, and camped out in the first row behind the north basket. When the team from Alabama was shooting that direction in the second half, some friends and I held it up for each free-throw they shot. I think they missed, like, 7 of 12. At least that's how I remember it. I remember Tommy Emma, lined up along the key before one of the shots, looking over, breaking into a big grin and just shaking his head and laughing.... Ah, those were the days!! :rolleyes:

As for Elmore, I for one welcome critical views, and have been known to peruse the occasional opponent fan website to better understand the external view of Duke, its fans and various plays/calls. So I don't begrudge a commentator the right to criticisize Duke or Duke players, at all. But Elmore just comes across too often as simply, if you watch the subtlties, rooting against the Devils, or just not paying very close attention. I remember the example given earlier of a game where he pointed out maybe five or six (?) close calls that went Duke's way, while obviously ignoring EVERY marginal call against us -- and there were some bad ones. It simply was unprofessional. And vs Wake his criticism of the Wake kid laid out on the floor for a "lack of toughness," was just embarrassing. You could see very clearly on the slow-mo replay that Nolan, entirely by accident as he was dribbling away, had a hand swing around and smak the kid solidly on the side of his face. Yet LE was already on his high horse, and not even looking at the replay (I think Patrick saw it, but stopped short of directly contracting Elmore).

For those leaping to LE's defense, listen carefully the next time he does a game involving the Terps. Listen for it. I think you'll eventually hear the bias.

Unfortunately us Dukies are more used to alums, such as Bilas, going overboard the OTHER way, just to prove that they aren't Duke homers. Oh well.... I think that's a better problem to have.

[lotusland]

For those leaping to LE's defense, listen carefully the next time he does a game involving the Terps. Listen for it. I think you'll eventually hear the bias.


No doubt if you are looking for bias you will find it.

[jv001]

This is exactly right. Elmore pretty much spearheaded the 2006 revival of the "Duke gets all the calls" discussion. It became a very big topic all over ESPN and beyond and frankly I thought it was unprofessional on the part of many analysts to treat it like a legitimate discussion. Elmore was the one I most remember thinking there was some validity to the claim that Duke gets all of the calls.

are the two announcers that the mute button was made for. Both of them were instrumental in "Duke gets all the calls" discussions. I can't rank one ahead of the other. As far as I'm concerned it's a tie. Both were terrible at their professions. Go Duke!

[thenameisbond]

are the two announcers that the mute button was made for. Both of them were instrumental in "Duke gets all the calls" discussions. I can't rank one ahead of the other. As far as I'm concerned it's a tie. Both were terrible at their professions. Go Duke!

I recall the same thing about Elmore. He and Packer both have diffuculty remaining objective where Duke is concerned.

[-bdbd]

No doubt if you are looking for bias you will find it.

Not what I said.

I was talking about carefully listening to an Elmore broadcast, especially one involvoing MD, and pay attention for any bias. One could certainly come away from such an examination with the conclusion that said announcer is NOT exhibiting bias. My point was simply that if one PAYS ATTENTION to the issue of whether bias is being shown, it will become evident very quickly in his case. That is different than watching Elmore while TRYING TO PROOVE his bias. You certainly won't see the sort of "studied neutrality" of a Bryant Gumbel (?), Brent Musberger, Gminski, or other professional announcers.

[killerleft]

I have mostly enjoyed Len Elmore when he's done Duke games.

I do remember the times when we were most sensitive about the anti-Duke stuff and he seemed to pile-on a bit. But I like his perspective and welcome his knowledgeable insight into the game of college basketball. He's generally entertaining, and doesn't seem to flub facts or harp on one subject too often.

Unlike some of us, I could care less if his bias shows through once in a while. He obviously loved representing Maryland on the floor, and I'd feel cheated (if that's the word) if he didn't show his pride as a Maryland alum once in a while. What's wrong with being Len Elmore, Maryland great? That is who he is!

I'll get slammed for it, but I put him just below Mike Gminski on a short list of really good color guys doing ACC games.

[cato]

Even if you find him interesting, educated and erudite (really????) . . .

Compared to your average basketball announcer, Elmore is in fact educated and erudite. He has a law degree from Harvard, and worked as a prosecutor in NYC. Now, that doesn't necessarily make him a better announcer than others, but he was more of a scholar than some.

Interesting, of course, is entirely subjective. I personally like Elmore more than many other announcers, particularly Vitale.

[DukieInKansas]

What was driving me crazy is the start of the second half maybe about 4 minutes in they were speaking of Tyler starting and the reasons why he may deserve to start the half. Mike started the conversation and I just began to shake my head then Elmore a minute later started speaking of why Tyler started the half because of his defense.

Sad part of it all was that Tyler did not start the second half. He came in for Dawkins and was the first off the bench but these two really just talk and do not give any real good insight on the game. They surely do not pay attention.

I watched a recorded version of the game - had to rewind to verify the fact that Thornton did NOT start the 2nd half. How could they miss that?

[flyingdutchdevil]

Compared to your average basketball announcer, Elmore is in fact educated and erudite. He has a law degree from Harvard, and worked as a prosecutor in NYC. Now, that doesn't necessarily make him a better announcer than others, but he was more of a scholar than some.

Interesting, of course, is entirely subjective. I personally like Elmore more than many other announcers, particularly Vitale.

I completely agree with you. I too like Elmore. Call me crazy. I like the fact that he isn't 100% objective and has a little bias towards Maryland. Don't you kinda wish that Bilas had a little bias towards Duke sometimes? It gives Elmore an edge and makes him seem more human. Plus, his analysis is rarely off. He rarely gets carried away. However, I will say that the chemistry with Mike Patrick isn't great. I think Elmore needs a better partner. Just my 2 cents.

[gwlaw99]

I don't hate Elmore, but he does say some rediculous things about Duke players. At least I can tune him out. With Vitale, who I have no problems with as a person, I have to turn off the volume completely because he distracts from the game.

[lotusland]

Not what I said.

I was talking about carefully listening to an Elmore broadcast, especially one involvoing MD, and pay attention for any bias. One could certainly come away from such an examination with the conclusion that said announcer is NOT exhibiting bias. My point was simply that if one PAYS ATTENTION to the issue of whether bias is being shown, it will become evident very quickly in his case. That is different than watching Elmore while TRYING TO PROOVE his bias. You certainly won't see the sort of "studied neutrality" of a Bryant Gumbel (?), Brent Musberger, Gminski, or other professional announcers.

I will re-phrase then: If you are carefully listening for bias you will certainly hear it.

I listen for information and insight so that's what I usually hear although not always.

I often scan the opponent's board during commercials and always find it interesting that while DBR posters are complaining about biased officials and announcers the other teams fans are doing the exact same thing. During the championship game I received messages from my UNC buddies screaming that Butler was getting hosed by the officials while DBR posters were simultaneoulsy complaining that Duke was getting hosed by the officials. They can't be biased both against and in favor of Duke so it must be a difference of perception.

[91_92_01_10_15]

Obviously, there's some disagreement here about whether Elmore is biased in his commentary, and more specifically, if there is evidence that he believes that "Duke gets all the calls."

If we assume that Duke does not, in fact, get all the calls, then we may assume that Elmore would comment equally often on officiating errors that benefit each team when he calls a Duke game.

I volunteer to measure this statistic for one game, though I must admit that I believe that he is biased, and I think that it's at least possible that it could affect my numbers. To be fair, I think someone from the other side of the argument should measure the data as well for the same game, and maybe we could average the results. It's not much of an experiment, but it would be a start. Would any Elmore supporters like to volunteer?

[lotusland]

Obviously, there's some disagreement here about whether Elmore is biased in his commentary, and more specifically, if there is evidence that he believes that "Duke gets all the calls."

If we assume that Duke does not, in fact, get all the calls, then we may assume that Elmore would comment equally often on officiating errors that benefit each team when he calls a Duke game.

I volunteer to measure this statistic for one game, though I must admit that I believe that he is biased, and I think that it's at least possible that it could affect my numbers. To be fair, I think someone from the other side of the argument should measure the data as well for the same game, and maybe we could average the results. It's not much of an experiment, but it would be a start. Would any Elmore supporters like to volunteer?

Officials do make mistakes and those mistakes likely do favor one team or the other although that too can be subjective. My point is that Elmore or any announcer's comments about officiating are going to relate more to the actual events of the game than any bias that they have.

I think it is a little paranoid to think that officials and announcers are biased against some teams because of where they went to school. When Elmore played for MD he tried to be the best ball player he could be. He's been an announcer much longer so isn't it likely that his objective is to be the best announcer that he possibly can be instead of carrying out some conspiracy against Duke or other teams besides his alma mater?

I have several good customers who are Carolina grads and Tarheel fans. Trust me I'm only interested in earning their business not changing their basketball allegiance. It's called being a professional and earning a living and it's way more important than who your favorite basketball team is.

[91_92_01_10_15]

Officials do make mistakes and those mistakes likely do favor one team or the other although that too can be subjective. My point is that Elmore or any announcer's comments about officiating are going to relate more to the actual events of the game than any bias that they have.

I think it is a little paranoid to think that officials and announcers are biased against some teams because of where they went to school. When Elmore played for MD he tried to be the best ball player he could be. He's been an announcer much longer so isn't it likely that his objective is to be the best announcer that he possibly can be instead of carrying out some conspiracy against Duke or other teams besides his alma mater?

I have several good customers who are Carolina grads and Tarheel fans. Trust me I'm only interested in earning their business not changing their basketball allegiance. It's called being a professional and earning a living and it's way more important than who your favorite basketball team is.

I'm not sure how that relates to my post but, if you would you care to collect some data in an attempt to support your position, see above and post or PM me.

[alteran]

Officials do make mistakes and those mistakes likely do favor one team or the other although that too can be subjective. My point is that Elmore or any announcer's comments about officiating are going to relate more to the actual events of the game than any bias that they have.

I think it is a little paranoid to think that announcers are biased against some teams because of where they went to school.

You've clearly never listened to Kenny "We Win!" Smith doing a game.

I think it is a little naive to think that announcers AREN'T biased by where they went to school. I find your take particularly ironic considering you just wrote right above it that it's funny how partisans of one school see biased officiating one way, partisans of the other school see the reverse.

Personally, I think good announcers should strive to be objective and be reasonably successful at that endeavor-- ultimately that is all I ask. I think Len Elmore actually pretty much does that these days although his bias shows through at times.

That being said, my irritation with Elmore is more about him piling on with the Duke officiating conspiracy than the fact that I do honestly believe that he dislikes Duke and subtly (and probably unconsciously) seems to skew things accordingly.

[alteran]

I'm not sure how that relates to my post but, if you would you care to collect some data in an attempt to support your position, see above and post or PM me.

Yeah, I noticed that none of the legion Elmore supporters stepped up to the plate on that one. Sure it's a somewhat annoying task, but most of us here have DVRs and are going to be watching the game anyway. A number of people in this thread have spent more time defending Elmore's neutrality than it would take to pull out a pad of paper and write time signatures down when Elmore criticizes calls that went against Duke.

My guess is that it would hardly take any time at all-- 91_92_01_10 is the one who's going to have the real work to do here. ;)

[ncexnyc]

Yeah, I noticed that none of the legion Elmore supporters stepped up to the plate on that one. Sure it's a somewhat annoying task, but most of us here have DVRs and are going to be watching the game anyway. A number of people in this thread have spent more time defending Elmore's neutrality than it would take to pull out a pad of paper and write time signatures down when Elmore criticizes calls that went against Duke.

My guess is that it would hardly take any time at all-- 91_92_01_10 is the one who's going to have the real work to do here. ;)
This is funny, really funny. Maybe we can get someone from Scientific American Magazine to moderate this excercise in objectivity.

[Jderf]

This is funny, really funny. Maybe we can get someone from Scientific American Magazine to moderate this excercise in objectivity.

I think we'll need some form of peer-review.

[lotusland]

I'm not sure how that relates to my post but, if you would you care to collect some data in an attempt to support your position, see above and post or PM me.

What data? My point is that your proposed exercise is pointless. If the officials make a questionable call that favors Duke and LE points that out is it bias or commentary? Likewise if he points out a bad call that goes other way does that mean he's not biased? No it just means the officials made a questionable call in the opponent's favor.
Why would I count that?

[Indoor66]

Seems to me that if both sides think he is favoring the other side, he is probably doing a good job or reporting what happened.

[Duvall]

Seems to me that if both sides think he is favoring the other side, he is probably doing a good job or reporting what happened.

Well, either that or he's consistently terrible.

[killerleft]

Yeah, I noticed that none of the legion Elmore supporters stepped up to the plate on that one. Sure it's a somewhat annoying task, but most of us here have DVRs and are going to be watching the game anyway. A number of people in this thread have spent more time defending Elmore's neutrality than it would take to pull out a pad of paper and write time signatures down when Elmore criticizes calls that went against Duke.

My guess is that it would hardly take any time at all-- 91_92_01_10 is the one who's going to have the real work to do here. ;)

This particular member of "Len's Legion" realizes that no matter what game or series of games are measured, we will probably confirm our own biases. Plus, it is in my interest to have a Lovable Len. I have enough trouble watching a close Duke game without trying to figure out which announcer doesn't like my team. I'll leave that to the multitaskers.

Oh, and let's remember that Elmore, Gminski, etc. are doing their thing in real time. Not an easy job. I would be more amazed if these guys got it right all the time.

[91_92_01_10_15]

What data? My point is that your proposed exercise is pointless. If the officials make a questionable call that favors Duke and LE points that out is it bias or commentary? Likewise if he points out a bad call that goes other way does that mean he's not biased? No it just means the officials made a questionable call in the opponent's favor.
Why would I count that?

That is not what I said at all. My theory is that he does not see questionable calls that favor Duke's opponents as often, or he sees them and chooses not to comment. As evidence, I suggested I count how many times he questions a call favoring Duke vs. one that favors its opponent.

In other words, if he commented on an official's error 10 times in a single game, and 9 of those 10 calls benefited Duke, it would be some evidence of bias.

I don't see how you could say it is pointless. It's certainly not an valid empirical study, but it represents an effort to collect some evidence, at least. The only way it would be pointless would be if you actually believed that the officials were favoring Duke, an idea that I think has been debunked repeatedly, and Elmore was just reporting that.

I think I'll do it, whether I get any help or not, and I will post the results in this thread.

[lotusland]

That is not what I said at all. My theory is that he does not see questionable calls that favor Duke's opponents as often, or he sees them and chooses not to comment. As evidence, I suggested I count how many times he questions a call favoring Duke vs. one that favors its opponent.

In other words, if he commented on an official's error 10 times in a single game, and 9 of those 10 calls benefited Duke, it would be some evidence of bias.

I don't see how you could say it is pointless. It's certainly not an valid empirical study, but it represents an effort to collect some evidence, at least. The only way it would be pointless would be if you actually believed that the officials were favoring Duke, an idea that I think has been debunked repeatedly, and Elmore was just reporting that.

I think I'll do it, whether I get any help or not, and I will post the results in this thread.

So when, in your opinion,there is a questionable call either favoring Duke or their opponent, you will record whether LE's response is even handed (in your opinion).

In that case I predict that your interpretation of all your opinions will support your opinion.

[91_92_01_10_15]

So when, in your opinion,there is a questionable call either favoring Duke or their opponent, you will record whether LE's response is even handed (in your opinion).

In that case I predict that your interpretation of all your opinions will support your opinion.

No, again I don't think you're getting me. I will not be making a judgment about the quality of call. My only judgment will be whether Elmore is questioning a call. Although there is still room for my bias to creep in, there's not nearly as much as if I were trying to identify whether a call was "questionable" or not.

I also proposed, or course, that someone from the other side of the aisle also count to try to offset my bias.

[lotusland]

No, again I don't think you're getting me. I will not be making a judgment about the quality of call. My only judgment will be whether Elmore is questioning a call. Although there is still room for my bias to creep in, there's not nearly as much as if I were trying to identify whether a call was "questionable" or not.

I also proposed, or course, that someone from the other side of the aisle also count to try to offset my bias.

I think you are right, I'm really not getting you. But I am really looking forward to learning the results of your study. Best of luck!

[ncexnyc]

This particular member of "Len's Legion" realizes that no matter what game or series of games are measured, we will probably confirm our own biases. Plus, it is in my interest to have a Lovable Len. I have enough trouble watching a close Duke game without trying to figure out which announcer doesn't like my team. I'll leave that to the multitaskers.

Oh, and let's remember that Elmore, Gminski, etc. are doing their thing in real time. Not an easy job. I would be more amazed if these guys got it right all the time.

WOW, you've just given me a great marketing idea. "Len's Legion" t-shirts. We can have a picture of the MD mascot with an afto and wearing glasses and on the back we can rip-off the X-Files and have it read, "I want to believe."

[oldnavy]

The production of games and the annoucers generally aggrivate me to no end. I have to watch the game, but I do not have to listen to the sound so I usually hit mute. I find that I can watch the game without having to listen to noise from the announcer no matter who they are. Most of the time they are not telling me anything useful or anything that will help me enjoy the game. When was the last time one of the announcers actually told you how many team fouls a team had? I know it happens every once in a while, but you hear a lot more about other junk than what is actually happening on the court. I will often go to a game cast on the computer to keep up with the stats that actually matter in the game, like personal fouls, team fouls, etc....

Now, if I could figure a way to keep the camera on the action and off players running down the court who just scored, or off the coaches on the bench or heaven forbid a mother of a player in the crowd or some explayer, I might be able to get back to the basics of enjoying watching a game on TV. I cannot tell you how many times we have missed plays because someone in the production truck thought it would be interesting to show a face in the crowd or coach rather than the ball in play on the court...

OK, off my soap box....

[Reilly]

.... When was the last time one of the announcers actually told you how many team fouls a team had? I know it happens every once in a while ....

This is *the* biggest pet peeve of a friend of mine: team fouls rarely mentioned. A huge component of the game influencing strategy, and it's rarely talked about.

[moonpie23]

i keep mentioning this, so i'll repeat it... Mute your TV and turn on Bob Harris on the radio feed. Not only will you have a great announcer (it's always great when they're on YOUR side and see things YOUR way, ) you'll be about 1.5 seconds in front of the tv.

as you listen to the play by play, you KNOW where the ball is going and what's going to happen and you have just enough time to watch the play being set up. It's pretty kewl..

I used to do it just because i couldn't stand the TV announcers, but now i'm hooked on the advance info...

just fyi.....not a city ordinance or anything,..:cool:

[91_92_01_10_15]

i keep mentioning this, so i'll repeat it... Mute your TV and turn on Bob Harris on the radio feed. Not only will you have a great announcer (it's always great when they're on YOUR side and see things YOUR way, ) you'll be about 1.5 seconds in front of the tv.

as you listen to the play by play, you KNOW where the ball is going and what's going to happen and you have just enough time to watch the play being set up. It's pretty kewl..

I used to do it just because i couldn't stand the TV announcers, but now i'm hooked on the advance info...

just fyi.....not a city ordinance or anything,..:cool:

Nice, I always looked at the 1.5 second gap as a disadvantage. I never thought that it might be a positive. I'll try that.

[Kimist]

....

Now, if I could figure a way to keep the camera on the action and off players running down the court who just scored, or off the coaches on the bench or heaven forbid a mother of a player in the crowd or some explayer, I might be able to get back to the basics of enjoying watching a game on TV. I cannot tell you how many times we have missed plays because someone in the production truck thought it would be interesting to show a face in the crowd or coach rather than the ball in play on the court...

OK, off my soap box....

Excellent points!!

But you failed to mention the always aggravating sideline butt-views of the refs or the wide views (while the game is in progress) from the farthest reaches of the arena - envision watching something on the court from the back row of the most distant section of the Dumb Dome.

Reminds me a lot of what a local (I live in RALeigh area) TV station does for ACC football games they "cover." They show the fans, they show the ground-level views of some distant plays, they may even show...from ground level...two players colliding in the end zone, and they REALLY enjoy showing only the football in the air going from unknown location A to unknown location B. I've long ago learned that if I wish to see any meaningful highlights of local college games that I must instead try some of the other area channels instead.

k

[BlueDevilBaby]

i keep mentioning this, so i'll repeat it... Mute your TV and turn on Bob Harris on the radio feed. Not only will you have a great announcer (it's always great when they're on YOUR side and see things YOUR way, ) you'll be about 1.5 seconds in front of the tv.

Not being in the area, I have to listen on XM and am couple seconds behind. Tried to listen to radio a few times but find the delay too annoying so end up with the knuckleheads on TV. I eventually tune them out by paying 1/2 attention to the game and rewinding when some awesome play happens. I find I can watch the games in a much calmer state on tape delay versus live. See, no broken bones in over a year!:D

[alteran]

This is funny, really funny. Maybe we can get someone from Scientific American Magazine to moderate this excercise in objectivity.

I do hope that came off somewhat tongue in cheek.

I do find the experiment intriguing, if (admittedly) silly. Maybe a better way to approach this would be as a bet, because no one would really call this scientific. And I always like a good and/or stupid bet.

I would definitely bet that if you counted calls disputed by Len in Duke games, Len would have a bias in favor of questioning the calls in Duke's favor. I would also be willing to accept consensus in this thread of what constitutes a disputed call.

Stakes could be cost-free, like a sig bet, or actual stakes. I always pay up when I lose, and I lose as often as I win.

Any takers in Len's Legion?

[Reilly]

I do hope that came off somewhat tongue in cheek.

I do find the experiment intriguing, if (admittedly) silly.....

Sports Illustrated recently ran an excerpt from a book that posited that home field advantage was partially or mainly attributable to refs being influenced by the home crowd. To the extent a "Duke gets all the calls" mentality takes hold, and Elmore like Packer before him contributes to that "truth", and other crowds get even more agitated and it influences crowds and hence refs and outcomes/point differentials, it doesn't seem so silly. Len Elmore's flapping lips could be the butterfly wings that cause Duke some losses and championships and millions of dollars.

[OldPhiKap]

Hit mute, and put on The Allman Bros. Live at Fillmore East instead. As loud as you can.

It'll all be fine.

[killerleft]

Sports Illustrated recently ran an excerpt from a book that posited that home field advantage was partially or mainly attributable to refs being influenced by the home crowd. To the extent a "Duke gets all the calls" mentality takes hold, and Elmore like Packer before him contributes to that "truth", and other crowds get even more agitated and it influences crowds and hence refs and outcomes/point differentials, it doesn't seem so silly. Len Elmore's flapping lips could be the butterfly wings that cause Duke some losses and championships and millions of dollars.

Yow! Does this mean Dickie V has already won us a couple championships and made us lots of money?:rolleyes:

[Reilly]

Yow! Does this mean Dickie V has already won us a couple championships and made us lots of money?:rolleyes:

I don't think so. We already maximized our ref-influencing value (at home) with our great crowd. Dickie V's yammering does not make our home crowd more effective so as to influence the refs more, as our home crowd is already maxed out w/out his help. Billy Packer's and Len Elmore's season after season conspiracy theories, however, make opposing crowds (which are not normally at Cameron-esque maximum levels) ratchet it up, thus influening the refs more in those places. And their conspiracy theories cloud the mind of the neutral site fans for the NCAAs, turning them against Duke, which in turn turns the refs against us, and gives the 'home court' advantage to the other team.

It was an interesting SI read. I'm not sure I buy it entirely (that *the refs* is what leads to home court advantage), but it was an interesting read (it was a book excerpt).

[cato]

Billy Packer's and Len Elmore's season after season conspiracy theories, however, make opposing crowds (which are not normally at Cameron-esque maximum levels) ratchet it up, thus influening the refs more in those places. And their conspiracy theories cloud the mind of the neutral site fans for the NCAAs, turning them against Duke, which in turn turns the refs against us, and gives the 'home court' advantage to the other team.

Conspiracy theories? Might want to check the mirror. Fans are much more likely to indulge in conspiracy theories than announcers.

[devilsadvocate85]

Having listened to/watched Elmore broadcast for years (and having been asked by many non-partisan friends what he has against Duke) I would propose an easier test.

Watch a future broadcast or a recorded one and see how long it takes for Elmore to comment on an officiating call that benefits Duke that he disagrees with. I would bet that you won't make it to the 2nd media timeout (under 12:00) in the first half.

Then try to find an instance where he disagrees with an officials call that benefits the opponent. Good luck, because the instances of that are few and far between.

On a side note, what was with the constant references to Duke abandoning the "Ryan Kelly as a post player experiment" during the Wake Forest game? Did anyone else catch that and wonder what he was talking about? Ryan's post presence has never been anything other than when opportunity presents itself type of thing. We probably haven't entered the ball to Ryan in a "back to the basket" situation more than 10 times all season.

[-bdbd]

I will re-phrase then: If you are carefully listening for bias you will certainly hear it.

I listen for information and insight so that's what I usually hear although not always.

I often scan the opponent's board during commercials and always find it interesting that while DBR posters are complaining about biased officials and announcers the other teams fans are doing the exact same thing. During the championship game I received messages from my UNC buddies screaming that Butler was getting hosed by the officials while DBR posters were simultaneoulsy complaining that Duke was getting hosed by the officials. They can't be biased both against and in favor of Duke so it must be a difference of perception.

Interesting perspective Lotusland. Are you trying to say that it is impossible to truthfully detect bias? I just can't buy that. Just b/c both sides complain about how a game is being announced or reffed DOESN'T mean that there isn't actually some bias present.

Look, you make a valid point that groups of fans tend to see what they want to see. But I don't accept the idea that you must therefore blindly accept the idea/presumption of evenhandedness from these announcers. Just as fans can be and are biased, so can be announcers (and even the occasional ref). It is human nature -- and I don't mean the malicious, agenda-driven, "I've got to get these guys" conspiracy lunacy you hear from the silly Duke-gets-all-the-calls theorists.

I'm sure Len tries to be even-handed. But to some extent, especially in one's perception of bias, we are often a product of our environment. If Len is a former MD player, and hangs out a lot with Terp fans, speaks frequently with Gary Williams and staff, reads Terp websites frequently, etc, etc. it will probably affect his view of where he thinks "neutrality" lies. It also matters where one comes from as a journalist in terms of the degree of "professionalism" one tries to achieve. In the "ESPN era" of sports anchors openly rooting for their alma-maters, and against their school's rivals - I blame Stuart Scott and company for a lot of this - the traditional "journalistic integrity" standards of studied neutrality that I grew up with just aren't emphasized/expected as much as they once were. That doesn't mean that an announcer has to be carrying a vendetta against a team or player or coach, but the demand for evenness just isn't as important as it used to be. So some announcers don't worry about it all that much anymore.

Then there's also the separate and relatively new trend of journalists pandering to their audience/constituency....

One of the big reasons that this (DBR) site tends to be so popular, and why we so often attract many fans from competitor sites to post here (e.g. Kong), is that the shrill "how dare they screw us" tone that you see on many fan sites is generally discouraged here. (I just can't even imagine a discussion on DBR of the tenor or virility of many that I've seen on some Terp or IC-type boards. Reasonable-ness and maturity is expected - if not always 100% delivered - here.) Is there some bias amongst DBR fans? Without a doubt. But that doesn't mean that we can't have a reasonable (and honest, fair) discussion and analysis about the announcing being done.

And it certainly doesn't mean that the announcer isn't actually being (unintentionally) biased...
:rolleyes:

[killerleft]

I don't think so. We already maximized our ref-influencing value (at home) with our great crowd. Dickie V's yammering does not make our home crowd more effective so as to influence the refs more, as our home crowd is already maxed out w/out his help. Billy Packer's and Len Elmore's season after season conspiracy theories, however, make opposing crowds (which are not normally at Cameron-esque maximum levels) ratchet it up, thus influening the refs more in those places. And their conspiracy theories cloud the mind of the neutral site fans for the NCAAs, turning them against Duke, which in turn turns the refs against us, and gives the 'home court' advantage to the other team.

It was an interesting SI read. I'm not sure I buy it entirely (that *the refs* is what leads to home court advantage), but it was an interesting read (it was a book excerpt).

We can't control it, so Coach K probably makes lemonade out of this sour lemon. I get the point, but since the neutral site fans are gonna pull against us whether Len yaps or not, I just don't see much of an advantage gained for our opponents that wasn't gonna be there anyway. We just can't be underdogs, our pedigree is better than anyone else's.

[Rudy]

I'm one who finds Elmore biased against Duke. I liked him as a player and in his college days I was a Maryland fan. To me it seems he needs to support his view that Duke gets most of the close calls, so when there is a close call given to Duke he has to point that out.

His comment about Singler's reacting at a call being either mad that the foul was called or mad that he "didn't get away with one" was unecessarily snide. Also, sometimes a player gets mad at himself for fouling or being out of position leading to the foul. it's certainly not unusual for a player to sincerely believe he didn't foul, even though the replay proves he did.

[alteran]

Conspiracy theories? Might want to check the mirror. Fans are much more likely to indulge in conspiracy theories than announcers.

There's a major difference between in a bunch of boneheads on some board half-seriously espousing conspiracy theories, and prominent figures lending credence to same.

I never gave two shakes that UNC and Maryland fans thought and screamed that we got all the calls, hell I did (and still do) the same thing about UNC. Like mimickry, it's one of the sincerest forms of flattery, when you think about it.

But the bottom line is I'm just some schmoe on the Internets.

When the national media took hold of it and dignified it, THAT'S when I thought it got to be a real problem. And to bring this home, Len was IMHO one of the dignifiers.

[cato]

There's a major difference between in a bunch of boneheads on some board half-seriously espousing conspiracy theories, and prominent figures lending credence to same.

I have no problem with people that think that Elmore is biased against Duke and therefore don't want to listen to him. I think that's beside the point, and enjoy listening to the guy considerably more than people like Vitale and Packer. So, I guess that I'm not overly concerned about how biased an announcer is, and just like certain styles more.

But, to borrow your phrase, there is a major difference between concluding (subjectively) that an announcer is biased, and concluding (objectively) that Elmore has cost Duke championships and millions of dollars.

If we coined the term "terping" to describe someone who blames a loss on the officiating, do we now need to coin the term "duking" to describe someone who blames lost championships on an announcer?

[alteran]

If we coined the term "terping" to describe someone who blames a loss on the officiating, do we now need to coin the term "duking" to describe someone who blames lost championships on an announcer?

Wow. If there was a bball equivalent to Godwin's Law, I think comparing anything a Duke fan does to terping would be it.

Somewhere, and I'm not sure where, we went down the rabbit hole. I didn't read the poster's argument as literally as you are taking it. I took it more like "the dignifying of the Duke Ref Conspiracy Theory probably cost Duke some games." I'm not sure I buy that entirely, but I don't think it's unreasonable. I sure as heck don't think it made things any easier.

But in any case, the argument doesn't warrant a cheap shot.

Maybe some of us are coming off more seriously to you than we intend. I don't really care when Elmore announces a game, I put him in the middle of the pack. I think he's biased against Duke, but it's not absurd. I don't mute the sound, sometimes he says things that are intelligent, just as often he says things that are pretty stupid, unwarranted, or nonsensical.

He'd probably fit right in on a bball board. :D

[cato]

Maybe some of us are coming off more seriously to you than we intend.

I get it. I don't think most are being overly serious (me included). But I do find the suggestion the Len Elmore cost Duke some championships and millions of dollars worthy of some teasing.

Now, if the poster had put the blame on Packer, I probably wouldn't complain.

[jv001]

I get it. I don't think most are being overly serious (me included). But I do find the suggestion the Len Elmore cost Duke some championships and millions of dollars worthy of some teasing.

Now, if the poster had put the blame on Packer, I probably wouldn't complain.

It was the combination of the two(Packer-elmore);) Go Duke!

[Reilly]

I get it. I don't think most are being overly serious (me included). But I do find the suggestion the Len Elmore cost Duke some championships and millions of dollars worthy of some teasing.

Now, if the poster had put the blame on Packer, I probably wouldn't complain.

I suggest you go back and read post #77. I was reacting to the idea that studying Elmore's alleged bias was "silly." I don't believe such a study is silly. The SI piece was on my mind -- that's a serious book by some math guys, if I recall. They talked about soccer refs watching a close call on tape, w/out sound, and then the same refs watching the same close call on tape, w/ crowd noise, and the significant difference in who they thought committed the penalty based on the crowd influence. I then thought back to 2001 -- DBR did some very good debunking of the Duke gets all the calls nonsense back then. But the crowd was really against us and inflamed at that Final Four -- wasn't that when Packer said "boy Duke's getting all the calls tonight" after 2 fouls at the 18 minute mark or something? But the outrage was in the air. I believe that outrage had been flamed, erroneously, by certain media over time. I also think Elmore is biased or, more accurately, is a bit of a curmudgeon and has antipathy for Duke from his playing days. As compared to somebody like Dan Bonner, who's more genial and though a rival, wasn't much of a player and is above it all.

Go read post 77 -- I then joke and make the connection (via butterfly effect) that Elmore's yapping could cost us -- again, the butterfly effect. That's sort of dry humor -- maybe too dry.

In sum, I think the idea of studying Elmore bias is not silly and would like to see some of it retroactively as well; I'm intrigued by the book that was excerpted in SI about what really causes home field advantage and about crowd influence; I think there's some serious misconceptions by some media members that has seriously inflamed passions against Duke at certain times in the past, making our team's task even that much tougher; and I think my humor is too dry for some.

[hurleyfor3]

If we coined the term "terping" to describe someone who blames a loss on the officiating, do we now need to coin the term "duking" to describe someone who blames lost championships on an announcer?

Chicago Cubs fans beat us to it, blaming their 2004 collapse on Steve Stone.

[sporthenry]

Thought I'd bring this thread back so any Elmore apologists can understand why nobody likes him.

[timmy c]

Thought I'd bring this thread back so any Elmore apologists can understand why nobody likes him.

Elmore has apologists? I'd like to meet them, they owe me an apology.

[Bluedevil114]

Elmore is so hard to listen to. He hates Duke and it is so obvious. He was quite when Duke made great plays and he was crying about Duke getting calls all night. Typical Maryland supporter.

[House G]

Thought I'd bring this thread back so any Elmore apologists can understand why nobody likes him.

I'm glad you did. Everytime he does a Duke game he gives me the impression he wants the other team to win. I have no doubt that this is the case but you don't get this kind of bias with Spanarkel and Gminski.

[wsb3]

I was wondering if I would see something about him. Clemson "victimized" by calls. How blatant can one idiot be? How he continues to make a living at this is beyond me. Doesn't anyone at ESPN ever monitor these guys.

I thought that this was a horribly officiated game. Horrible both ways. No advantage.

[TwiceDuke]

I really am sick of listening to Mr. Elmore. I know he was a good basketball player and all, but he seems not to think before speaking.

Some gems from tonight (quotes are paraphrased; don't have DVR):

[Nolan picks up a foul after Clemson collects a rebound, for reaching in]: "He had one hand on the ball while [the Clemson player] had two hands on the ball. They waited too long to call that. If you've only got one hand on the ball, it's gotta be a foul."

Then he and Patrick have a three-minute back-and-forth about how Clemson is getting jobbed, about mid-way through the second half. He keeps making the point "The officials were letting them play a physical game down in the post in the first half, and now this has gotten inconsistent. Lots of ticky-tack fouls around the perimeter. The players have to feel confused by that."

(As if there is no way for the players to distinguish between physical play in the post and hand-checking/holding on the perimeter).

[Thornton "pulls the chair out" from Stitt, who subsequently travels. Stitt charges at the ref]: "I can see why he would feel that way. Singler just got away with one because they said he was pushed, and this time the call goes the other way. Stitt was pushed, but they call a walk." [Then they show the replay, which clearly shows Stitt walking, even if Thornton commits the foul.] "I don't see the walk."

And then the most infuriating one: "Now Duke is starting to get the bad breaks and suffer from the inconsistent reffing. But they're up by eight, so... [trailing off into incomprehensible nonsense]."

Len's a clown. He ain't any worse than most color commentators, though, which probably reflects networks' preference for guys who can talk without saying anything of substance.

Rant over.

[roywhite]

Hearing constant references to Lunardi and bracketology....tiresome
Hearing Mike Patrick babble on....irritating

but, listening to Len Elmore constantly, repeatedly twerp about the officiating....unbearable.

Len, give up the announcer gig. Go get a striped shirt and a whistle, and call fouls to your heart's content. Maybe start off in a Peewee league where one of the teams is called the Blue Devils, and get your kicks calling fouls on them. But, in the meantime, please give it a rest.

[Lord Ash]

Just to be clear, after Len pointed out that Duke got shafted on a call, he said that we were winning so we shouldn't cry to the refs.

Elmore was just ridiculous. This is not a piece of hyperbole; it was the most one-sided announcing I've ever actually hear in my 20+ years of basketball watching. Bizarre.

[RoyalBlue08]

Just to be clear, after Len pointed out that Duke got shafted on a call, he said that we were winning so we shouldn't cry to the refs.

Elmore was just ridiculous. This is not a piece of hyperbole; it was the most one-sided announcing I've ever actually hear in my 20+ years of basketball watching. Bizarre.

I agree. I know Elmore has always been an anti-Duke lean, but tonight was over the top. You could hear the disappointment in his voice any time something went Duke's way. It was approaching unwatchable.

[Son of Mojo]

Unfortunately espn won't do anything to stop it. It's fostered and nurtured so that it can keep going on. Very odd considering how they love to air Duke games and how they consistently have good ratings that they allow the trashing from Elmore and others of his ilk (Digger, I'm pointing my non-matching highlighter at your bitter ***) to continue. If there were any justice at all, an impartial espn executive could've heard and seen what was happening and demand that bias of that extreme wouldn't be allowed. Some say I'm a dreamer...........

[jv001]

I don't hate anyone. Really I don't, but elmore's the closest I come to hating anyone. All he talked about for most of the game was how Clemson was getting done in by the refs. Since I muted Dickie V the last game and we lost, I was not about to mute elmore. Just grin and bare it. Go Duke!

[Lord Ash]

I don't hate anyone. Really I don't, but elmore's the closest I come to hating anyone. All he talked about for most of the game was how Clemson was getting done in by the refs. Since I muted Dickie V the last game and we lost, I was not about to mute elmore. Just grin and bare it. Go Duke!


As much as I would like to grin and bare it right in Len Elmore's direction, I think you may mean grin and bear it:)

[Dr. Tina]

I just kept yelling at the TV, telling Elmore to shut his trap, but in much more colorful language.

The best thing I heard come out of Elmore's mouth tonight was when he talked how great Kyle's block was in the 2nd half. That's about it. I agree with others who feel like he's got an ax to grind and is just ready to get his anti-Duke comments rolling. It doesn't help that Mike Patrick enables him and out of it half the time.

[Greg_Newton]

I[Thornton "pulls the chair out" from Stitt, who subsequently travels. Stitt charges at the ref]: "I can see why he would feel that way. Singler just got away with one because they said he was pushed, and this time the call goes the other way. Stitt was pushed, but they call a walk." [Then they show the replay, which clearly shows Stitt walking, even if Thornton commits the foul.] "I don't see the walk."

This was infuriating to me, honestly. Last straw, I guess.

Reality: gutsy freshman makes a great defensive play, forces all-conference senior into a turnover. Replay clearly shows Thornton DID NOT TOUCH Stitt, any grazed contact was caused solely by Stitt, who then takes four steps and falls over.

Elmore: After Singler cheated the play before, a motionless Stitt was mauled by Tyler Thornton.

Maybe the most annoying part is how he drags on his complain for 5 minutes while never actually coming out and saying it. Basically, "Ha ha, I meannnn, I'm not saying Duke gets all the calls, but... let's just say I see why he's upset." [pause, next play starts] "I just think that, if you're going to make that call, you need to make it both ways." [pause, Duke player makes great play, Patrick praises him them for it] "Yeah, nice play... so, Brad Brownell is upset, and I think it's because all of these 'close calls' are happening right in front of him. He thinks his team is getting jobbed right now."

I'm not usually one to get overly sensitive about the talking heads, but he is just beyond absurd. Someone on another board posted a link to where you can email ESPN, which I'm about to do. Not that it will do anything, but when it gets to the point where he's borderline ruining games... I don't know. Link: http://espn.go.com/espn/contact

[SupaDave]

There's always the option of actually complaining to ESPN...

http://espn.go.com/espn/contact

(I thought I'd make it a little more prominent than in G's post)

[Lord Ash]

I wrote them an email. A number of people are. Please, if you found this as irritating as many people did, shoot them an email... only takes a minute.

[moonpie23]

i thought we got some VERY favorable calls tonight....and NO-calls...

[Johnboy]

I pointed out to my son that the officials weren't causing Clemson to miss shots down the stretch.

[moonpie23]

There's always the option of actually complaining to ESPN...

http://espn.go.com/espn/contact

(I thought I'd make it a little more prominent than in G's post)

they have all they want.......like vegas odds, they set them so both sides will be intrigued....

they get the duke lovers with the broadcast of the game, and give the duke haters elmore...

[gwlaw99]

Best Elmore non sequetur happened at the beginning of the game. Patrick: Kyle Singler has really been abig part of Duke's success for 4 years. Elmore: Exactlty, Brownell has done a great job with this Clemson team. Say what??

[jv001]

This was infuriating to me, honestly. Last straw, I guess.

Reality: gutsy freshman makes a great defensive play, forces all-conference senior into a turnover. Replay clearly shows Thornton DID NOT TOUCH Stitt, any grazed contact was caused solely by Stitt, who then takes four steps and falls over.

Elmore: After Singler cheated the play before, a motionless Stitt was mauled by Tyler Thornton.

Maybe the most annoying part is how he drags on his complain for 5 minutes while never actually coming out and saying it. Basically, "Ha ha, I meannnn, I'm not saying Duke gets all the calls, but... let's just say I see why he's upset." [pause, next play starts] "I just think that, if you're going to make that call, you need to make it both ways." [pause, Duke player makes great play, Patrick praises him them for it] "Yeah, nice play... so, Brad Brownell is upset, and I think it's because all of these 'close calls' are happening right in front of him. He thinks his team is getting jobbed right now."

I'm not usually one to get overly sensitive about the talking heads, but he is just beyond absurd. Someone on another board posted a link to where you can email ESPN, which I'm about to do. Not that it will do anything, but when it gets to the point where he's borderline ruining games... I don't know. Link: http://espn.go.com/espn/contact

I e-mailed my compaint to ESPN. Probably will not do any good, but I did get it off my chest. Go Duke!

[marinbobbyduhon]

There's always the option of actually complaining to ESPN...

http://espn.go.com/espn/contact

(I thought I'd make it a little more prominent than in G's post)

Done. Thanks for the link.

[NovaScotian]

i thought we got some VERY favorable calls tonight....and NO-calls...

i completely agree. i think elmore was right on in a lot of what he was saying tonight (and this is coming from a fan who called elmore a horrible player and a worse lawyer to his face once). but seriously, who cares. i think we can all agree that getting all the calls is one of the best parts about being a duke fan. it just rules.

[sporthenry]

i completely agree. i think elmore was right on in a lot of what he was saying tonight (and this is coming from a fan who called elmore a horrible player and a worse lawyer to his face once). but seriously, who cares. i think we can all agree that getting all the calls is one of the best parts about being a duke fan. it just rules.

I honestly didn't think there were that many favorable calls. Duke did get a few, the most notable being the 10 second call, but what about the first play when Kyle almost got whiplash and they said it went out on him. Stitt traveled on his own accord. The refs obviously tried to tighten up the game towards the end and I'll give Duke the benefit of the doubt that they recognized this and changed their gameplan, something Clemson didn't do. Once the refs call you for one charge, you think they'd learn that you can't just lower your shoulder. They learned that in the second half and it did them wonders. Meanwhile, Tanner Smith is trying to take charges on Nolan during a fast break or the Clemson player flopping 10 feet when Nolan was moving lateral.

[OZ]

I usually don't comment on announcers, as they have their job to do, but Elmore clearly broke the rules of "impartiality" tonight.

Toward the end, when Nolan picked up his second consecutive "offensive" foul, Elmore remarked... "With these two fouls on Smith, the refs are trying to balance it out."
Interpretation of Elmore speak - Duke has gotten all the calls and now the refs are trying to make themselves look good. That is a strong judgemental statement for an announcer to make - IMO. I don't think I have heard anyone say that on the air before.

Secondly, again, close to the end, when Clemson was being out hustled and frustration was beginning to show, Elmore opined, "Earlier Clemson was victimized by the calls, now they are victimizing themselves."

IMO, those comments were at the very least, unprofessional. But, then, no one has ever accused him of being a professional.

[Zeb]

"I only got 10 & 12 my senior night because I just played 20 minutes since we beat Virginia by 40."

Good lord--Len Elmore is an obnoxious bore.

[Greg_Newton]

i completely agree. i think elmore was right on in a lot of what he was saying tonight (and this is coming from a fan who called elmore a horrible player and a worse lawyer to his face once). but seriously, who cares. i think we can all agree that getting all the calls is one of the best parts about being a duke fan. it just rules.

Disagree with this in so many ways.

Did you see the Stitt Thornton play, for one thing? Elmore was dead wrong on that, to the point it was almost comical.

Also, I know you're kind of joking with that last comment, but having Elmore undermine our players' effort every game with his terping propaganda DOES have an effect on how we're viewed by the casual viewer. Without getting too public policy-ey, it's basically like giving an X-wing news station sole coverage and broadcast rights to a Y-wing politician's campaign, and letting them do commentary during all of his/her speeches. It affects the perception, which bothers me.

If a talking head wants to bash our performance, that's fine, but trying to illegitimize it is a much bigger deal IMO. Especially when it's the color commentator in every game.

Last thing - Clemson was just really dumb in the first half. They had something like four charges, and none of them were the least bit questionable. How hard is it to pull up when there's a guy literally standing there waiting between you and the basket?

[heyman25]

Thanks for the link. I simply repeated what others have said and said next season no Len Elmore on ESPN Duke games.

[-bdbd]

I usually don't comment on announcers, as they have their job to do, but Elmore clearly broke the rules of "impartiality" tonight.

Toward the end, when Nolan picked up his second consecutive "offensive" foul, Elmore remarked... "With these two fouls on Smith, the refs are trying to balance it out."Interpretation of Elmore speak - Duke has gotten all the calls and now the refs are trying to make themselves look good. That is a strong judgemental statement for an announcer to make - IMO. I don't think I have heard anyone say that on the air before.

Secondly, again, close to the end, when Clemson was being out hustled and frustration was beginning to show, Elmore opined, "Earlier Clemson was victimized by the calls, now they are victimizing themselves."

IMO, those comments were at the very least, unprofessional. But, then, no one has ever accused him of being a professional.

I thought this quote at the end was the real capper. Translating, when it becomes just plain so obvious that the announcer can't avoid accepting that a bad call was made against Duke (gasp! not possible!!), Elmore can't just simply admit "a bad call was made against Duke." Nope, he has to justify it as, "One gets the sense that the refs are trying to balance it out... (for all of the only-pro-Duke bad calls that I've been pointing out)."

Look, the reffing in this game actually was terrible. It was inconsistent and unpredictable -- and so was the announcing (well, the "Duke gets all the calls" bias was predictable I guess). But bad calls certainly went both ways, and Clemson DID commit more fouls than Duke, regardless of the reffing, at least partially due to their very physical style. But true to form Elmore (and his clueless sidekick Patrick) never acknowledged or pointed out a single bad call that went against Duke (and there were several)!

I don't watch much of NC games, but I'd really love to see siome statistical analysis of the games these two have announced, including UNC games - a program that historically has a better "foul differential" (and FT totals) than Duke - and see how many times they complain about calls going for NC, or whoever. I'd be stunned if it was anywhere near as much as they complain about calls going for Duke. You KNOW there's no danger of him complaining about pro-MD calls...

:mad: :mad: :p



P.S. Patrick really is just awful. Embarrassingly so. He frequently gets player (and coach!!) names wrong, mis-announces which team got the call or has the ball out of bounds, and even gets the teams reversed (and doesn't seem to realize his mistakes for several seconds, if at all)... Just shaking my head throughout.

[sporthenry]

And I'm sure the rest of the ACC can complain but it is a joy when UNC fans try to complain about officiating. They have a 3.5 foul differential this year compared to Duke at 1.6 (prior to this game). In addition a +106 FT margin compared to Duke @ +23?

[Emeritus]

I sent this to ESPN because I needed to vent.

Subject: Len Elmore's inexcusible bias against Duke Basketball Team
It would be unacceptable if it were occasional, but Elmore's blatant bias against Duke is disgusting. I do not think he is a good color commentator on any game, and I dread watching a game when he and Mike Patrick, (who makes a gaffe in every other sentence) are calling the action. I know this will probably fall on deaf ears or rather disinterested eyes, but ESPN can do so much better, and we who faithfully watch your programing deserve so much better. Does anyone there even monitor these broadcasts for content and continuity of commentary, or the aforementioned instances of blatant bias? Please put Elmore on the bench, Vitale out to pasture, and Mike Patrick in a home. Bobby Knight actually watches the game being played and makes insightful observations that add to the true fan's enjoyment of the game. Thank You, "Long Time Watcher, First Time Squaller!"

[oldnavy]

I simply cannot listen to ANY of the broadcasters with the exception of Bobby Knight and whoever he is partnered with. He is the only one that helps me understand the game.

I hit the mute button and tune in to the local affiliate that carries the game. I am usually a second or two behind the play, but that is not bad.

Like someone said to me the other day. "I have been watching basketball as long as any of these clowns and I do not need for them to tell me what I see". True enough. Bob Harris does a good job keeping you up to date on the team fouls and other pertinent events happening in the game plus they have Duke insider info that they pass along as well. The delay is not hard to get used too since I see what happens first, then get the commentary.

I did not hear a single word that either Patrick or Elmore said, but it sounds like they were being there normal useless selves...

I highly recommend using my strategy, it cause much less tension and makes the games more enjoyable

[TwiceDuke]

I usually don't comment on announcers, as they have their job to do, but Elmore clearly broke the rules of "impartiality" tonight.

Toward the end, when Nolan picked up his second consecutive "offensive" foul, Elmore remarked... "With these two fouls on Smith, the refs are trying to balance it out."
Interpretation of Elmore speak - Duke has gotten all the calls and now the refs are trying to make themselves look good. That is a strong judgemental statement for an announcer to make - IMO. I don't think I have heard anyone say that on the air before.

Secondly, again, close to the end, when Clemson was being out hustled and frustration was beginning to show, Elmore opined, "Earlier Clemson was victimized by the calls, now they are victimizing themselves."

IMO, those comments were at the very least, unprofessional. But, then, no one has ever accused him of being a professional.


When Elmore was doing this last night, it sent me back to 2006. After the officiating SNAFU at Cameron against Florida State (which resulted in suspensions for the officials), it was open season on the Duke Officiating Bias theme.

I wish I could remember which ESPN writer it was, but after the return trip to Tallahassee, ESPN posted an article that essentially said, "Yes, Duke got jobbed last night... but they deserved it after what happened in Cameron."

The whole tit-for-tat mentality is just uncalled for in my experience. Even when I feel like Duke has had the worse-er of it during the evening, I always pray that the officials will start calling it fairly, not in my favor.

[KaHOOnah]

i thought we got some VERY favorable calls tonight....and NO-calls...

Me too. If Nolan Smith and Seth Curry had been whistled for all the blatant pushoffs earlier in the game, both would've been fouled out with 10 minutes remaining in the second half. For a stretch of about 10 minutes, Duke got every questionable call. Someone on the UVa board said that during the last five minutes of the game, when Duke actually started getting whistled, seemed like the sandbagging golfer who takes a 10 on hole #18 after he has already beaten you out of $20. But the game was already out of reach.

With all due respect, Len Elmore only said what everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking. I am beginning to think that Sean Hull may be pulling a Tim Donaghy. If he's not, he's simply the worst official the ACC employs and his contract should be terminated at year's end.

[TwiceDuke]

Me too. If Nolan Smith and Seth Curry had been whistled for all the blatant pushoffs earlier in the game, both would've been fouled out with 10 minutes remaining in the second half. For a stretch of about 10 minutes, Duke got every questionable call. Someone on the UVa board said that during the last five minutes of the game, when Duke actually started getting whistled, seemed like the sandbagging golfer who takes a 10 on hole #18 after he has already beaten you out of $20. But the game was already out of reach.

With all due respect, Len Elmore only said what everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking. I am beginning to think that Sean Hull may be pulling a Tim Donaghy. If he's not, he's simply the worst official the ACC employs and his contract should be terminated at year's end.

I won't disagree that the officiating was horrible last night. But I will disagree that Elmore has to make the point in the way that he did. Not every call favored Duke, even during the period in which the calls, on balance, favored Duke. An impartial announcer would chastise the referees for all of the bad calls that they made. Instead, Elmore calls Clemson "victims" and indicates that the referees are "helping Duke out."

In other words, there are two ways to make the statement: one that is neutral and that blames the referees for not letting players play, and one that indicates that there is some sort of bias at play. It may be perfectly acceptable for fans on a message board to take the latter stance. But for an announcer to carp about it for a full 1/2 of the broadcast, that is unprofessional.

[wsb3]

Me too. If Nolan Smith and Seth Curry had been whistled for all the blatant pushoffs earlier in the game, both would've been fouled out with 10 minutes remaining in the second half. For a stretch of about 10 minutes, Duke got every questionable call. Someone on the UVa board said that during the last five minutes of the game, when Duke actually started getting whistled, seemed like the sandbagging golfer who takes a 10 on hole #18 after he has already beaten you out of $20. But the game was already out of reach.

With all due respect, Len Elmore only said what everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking. I am beginning to think that Sean Hull may be pulling a Tim Donaghy. If he's not, he's simply the worst official the ACC employs and his contract should be terminated at year's end.

No question Nolan did some pushing off with his free hand but if you watched the replay leading up to the push how many times was he being bumped, pushed, shoved, leading up to that point. That was a physical game and it was horribly officiated but there were numerous bad calls for both teams. The refs never seemed to get into the flow.

Len Elmore does not speak for me. He plays to an anti-Duke sentiment. He is so adamant when Duke gets a favorable call but when it goes against Duke he hedges all bets and never fully concedes that Duke got jobbed on a call. I just would like him to be fair. That is all I ask of anyone.

[moonpie23]

i don't know if it really does any good, but i did organize an online email onslaught against that nimrod STEPHAN A a few years ago and now i don't see him on.....so whether or not it had anything to do with it.....the bottom line is, i don't see him on so much....

[cspan37421]

With all due respect, Len Elmore only said what everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking. I am beginning to think that Sean Hull may be pulling a Tim Donaghy.

Actually, what you say shows no respect at all, let alone due respect. And how do you know what "everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking"? A: you don't, you assume.

I have seen bad calls go our way, I have seen bad calls against us. I make a point to concede the former and point out the latter when watching with my son. In my opinion, we do not, on balance, get as much of an even share of bad calls going our way. Our team's talent level is high; if anything, refs swallow their whistles when it comes to physical play against Duke on the ball and under the boards.

Now, if you wanted to talk about carrying the ball with that under and over dribble, then we're probably as guilty as the next team, and every game would be a turnover-fest. Or pushoffs on rebounds under the basket - probably every team, every play. But I doubt that's what you mean. In terms of pushoffs of which you speak, yeah, Nolan got called twice late for that - but because his defender has his forearm in his chest or his hand on Nolan's forearm already. I didn't see Nolan initiate contact earlier in the game - IMO it's just the way Clemson was playing. As Sir Charles said, "I could be wrong, but I doubt it."

[SMO]

Me too. If Nolan Smith and Seth Curry had been whistled for all the blatant pushoffs earlier in the game, both would've been fouled out with 10 minutes remaining in the second half. For a stretch of about 10 minutes, Duke got every questionable call. Someone on the UVa board said that during the last five minutes of the game, when Duke actually started getting whistled, seemed like the sandbagging golfer who takes a 10 on hole #18 after he has already beaten you out of $20. But the game was already out of reach.

With all due respect, Len Elmore only said what everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking. I am beginning to think that Sean Hull may be pulling a Tim Donaghy. If he's not, he's simply the worst official the ACC employs and his contract should be terminated at year's end.

So what did you think of the long bloody scratch on Nolan's arm? No call, eh? Guess it was a result of him pushing off. Strangely, Elmore didn't comment on it after Patrick pointed it out.

Maybe he wasn't really bleeding and it was just my Duke blue glasses deceiving me.

[SMO]

Len Elmore does not speak for me. He plays to an anti-Duke sentiment. He is so adamant when Duke gets a favorable call but when it goes against Duke he hedges all bets and never fully concedes that Duke got jobbed on a call. I just would like him to be fair. That is all I ask of anyone.

This sums my thoughts up nicely. Duke got some calls last night. So did Clemson. If you hadn't watched and just listened to Elmore call the game, you would have been led to believe Clemson got completely jobbed. That was clearly not the case, but Elmore felt compelled to paint it that way, which is what leads many of us to criticize what appears to be blatant bias against Duke.

[oldnavy]

Actually, what you say shows no respect at all, let alone due respect. And how do you know what "everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking"? A: you don't, you assume.

I have seen bad calls go our way, I have seen bad calls against us. I make a point to concede the former and point out the latter when watching with my son. In my opinion, we do not, on balance, get as much of an even share of bad calls going our way. Our team's talent level is high; if anything, refs swallow their whistles when it comes to physical play against Duke on the ball and under the boards.

Now, if you wanted to talk about carrying the ball with that under and over dribble, then we're probably as guilty as the next team, and every game would be a turnover-fest. Or pushoffs on rebounds under the basket - probably every team, every play. But I doubt that's what you mean. In terms of pushoffs of which you speak, yeah, Nolan got called twice late for that - but because his defender has his forearm in his chest or his hand on Nolan's forearm already. I didn't see Nolan initiate contact earlier in the game - IMO it's just the way Clemson was playing. As Sir Charles said, "I could be wrong, but I doubt it."

Duke has been called for more fouls or even number of fouls in 12 of our 30 games. Hardly an over whelming advantage in calls. We are third in the ACC in FTA behind UNC and Md. But the facts will never outweigh the myth that we get all the calls.

[Exiled_Devil]

Disagree with this in so many ways.



Also, I know you're kind of joking with that last comment, but having Elmore undermine our players' effort every game with his terping propaganda DOES have an effect on how we're viewed by the casual viewer. Without getting too public policy-ey, it's basically like giving an X-wing news station sole coverage and broadcast rights to a Y-wing politician's campaign, and letting them do commentary during all of his/her speeches. It affects the perception, which bothers me.

For a second I thought this was about Star Wars. Darn.

[Exiled_Devil]

Me too. If Nolan Smith and Seth Curry had been whistled for all the blatant pushoffs earlier in the game, both would've been fouled out with 10 minutes remaining in the second half. For a stretch of about 10 minutes, Duke got every questionable call. Someone on the UVa board said that during the last five minutes of the game, when Duke actually started getting whistled, seemed like the sandbagging golfer who takes a 10 on hole #18 after he has already beaten you out of $20. But the game was already out of reach.

With all due respect, Len Elmore only said what everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking. I am beginning to think that Sean Hull may be pulling a Tim Donaghy. If he's not, he's simply the worst official the ACC employs and his contract should be terminated at year's end.

I call BS. You talk about 'everyone without Duke Blue glasses on" after retelling a story of someone with Wahoo-colored glasses. To suggest that a UVA fan is an unbiased observer is silly.

Also, this was a poorly officiated game both ways. Elmore chose not to mention all the maulings that Singler received under the basket. And obvious Clemson flops were called 'Duke getting away with something'. And he was absolutely silent when Duke made great plays, but praising Clemson because they stopped charging. Elmore was just silly bad, and it follows a consistency over years.

With all due respect...hah.

[UrinalCake]

You know what I'd love to do? I'd like to take an archive of the 2001 Final Four game against Maryland, and digitally alter it so that all of the Maryland players are wearing Duke jerseys and the Duke players are wearing Maryland jerseys. Then I'd like to present it as a live broadcast and have Len Elmore and Billy Packer do the commentary. I'd love to hear what they have to say. At the end of the game I'll tell them what I did, and I'll really enjoy watching Packer's ugly smirk disappear and the shock on Elmore's monstrous lips.

[cspan37421]

Duke has been called for more fouls or even number of fouls in 12 of our 30 games. Hardly an over whelming advantage in calls. We are third in the ACC in FTA behind UNC and Md. But the facts will never outweigh the myth that we get all the calls.

I'll accept your stats at face value, but (as you probably know), they are, at bottom, meaningless, because they do not address which team commits more fouls. For those stats to have value, you have to assume that each team fouls equally, over time, and so you should expect an equal number of fouls to be committed. I would say that depends very much on style of defense, and I think ours is pretty average (at worst) in terms of physicality.

[Reilly]

Granted, Patrick does enable Elmore a bit. Granted, Patrick does make a lot more mistakes than he used to, which can be painful. Patrick used to be one of the very best: to my ears, there was and is not much better than a patented Duke run accompanied by a spot-on Patrick call rising to a crescendo. As the man says, it's true that he's not as good as he once was, but every now and then, he's as good, once, as he ever was. Patrick's a warm, comfortable afghan that's now worn, and with some large holes: if you fold it just right, it can still do the job, and be a warm, comforting thing ... as opposed to the wet, mildewy, ugly blanket that is and always has been Len Elmore.

[DukeGirl4ever]

Also, this was a poorly officiated game both ways. Elmore chose not to mention all the maulings that Singler received under the basket. And obvious Clemson flops were called 'Duke getting away with something'. And he was absolutely silent when Duke made great plays, but praising Clemson because they stopped charging. Elmore was just silly bad, and it follows a consistency over years.

With all due respect...hah.

AMEN! Singler was fouled so many times it was ridiculous! I am waiting for the one time he goes up for a shot fake and someone tries to block him but he gets jarred so bad his back is injured. I have been scared a couple of times because it looks like his head is going to get taken off. The sad part is, I have rarely seen it called a foul.

[killerleft]

Disagree with this in so many ways.

Did you see the Stitt Thornton play, for one thing? Elmore was dead wrong on that, to the point it was almost comical.

Also, I know you're kind of joking with that last comment, but having Elmore undermine our players' effort every game with his terping propaganda DOES have an effect on how we're viewed by the casual viewer. Without getting too public policy-ey, it's basically like giving an X-wing news station sole coverage and broadcast rights to a Y-wing politician's campaign, and letting them do commentary during all of his/her speeches. It affects the perception, which bothers me.

If a talking head wants to bash our performance, that's fine, but trying to illegitimize it is a much bigger deal IMO. Especially when it's the color commentator in every game.

Last thing - Clemson was just really dumb in the first half. They had something like four charges, and none of them were the least bit questionable. How hard is it to pull up when there's a guy literally standing there waiting between you and the basket?

Elmore does a bit of terping at times, but he didn't dispute the charging calls. I think we did come out a bit ahead in the close calls. Sometimes, once we've decided an announcer is "terping", it is easy to take everything he says after that in such a way that it can be called terping.

He did grate against the nerves. When he wanted the call against Thornton instead of the traveling call, he didn't change his mind even after seeing the replay that totally showed Thornton didn't foul.

But my point would be that WE often treat Elmore (or other TV guys) the same way. Everybody has that bias gene present in the old DNA. Our point of view is perhaps the best predictor of how we will react to events.

Len should do better. He just can't. For the record, I enjoy listening to him anyway.

[PADukeMom]

My favorite quote last night was from Mike Patrick when he stated that BYU just started the 3rd quarter. Seriously????
FYI: I am giving up use of the word "seriously" for Lent so if any of you notice me violating this let me know. It will cost me a quarter for each usage. Last year it was the phrase"you know" which ended up costing me $24.50.

[jv001]

Me too. If Nolan Smith and Seth Curry had been whistled for all the blatant pushoffs earlier in the game, both would've been fouled out with 10 minutes remaining in the second half. For a stretch of about 10 minutes, Duke got every questionable call. Someone on the UVa board said that during the last five minutes of the game, when Duke actually started getting whistled, seemed like the sandbagging golfer who takes a 10 on hole #18 after he has already beaten you out of $20. But the game was already out of reach.

With all due respect, Len Elmore only said what everyone who doesn't see the world through Duke Blue glasses was thinking. I am beginning to think that Sean Hull may be pulling a Tim Donaghy. If he's not, he's simply the worst official the ACC employs and his contract should be terminated at year's end.

Just go ahead and cry me a river. Elmore and Packer have by themselves created the myth that Duke get's all the calls. Last night the game was poorly officiated and that led to more of a wrestling match than a basketball game. Elmore spent way too much time talking of how Clemson was getting jobbed by the refs and not giving the audience useful information Why don't you see other announcers calling the game the way Elmore does? Every time Nolan or Kyle went to the basket, they were mauled. So how about taking off your thick orange glasses and look at the game fairly. I would think a Wahoo fan/alum/student would be too smart to get taken in by Len Elmore. Go Duke!

[diveonthefloor]

Me too. If Nolan Smith and Seth Curry had been whistled for all the blatant pushoffs earlier in the game, both would've been fouled out with 10 minutes remaining in the second half. For a stretch of about 10 minutes, Duke got every questionable call. .

I don't know which game you were watching, but next time you may want to wear your prescription lenses.

[diveonthefloor]

Granted, Patrick does enable Elmore a bit. Granted, Patrick does make a lot more mistakes than he used to, which can be painful. Patrick used to be one of the very best: to my ears, there was and is not much better than a patented Duke run accompanied by a spot-on Patrick call rising to a crescendo. As the man says, it's true that he's not as good as he once was, but every now and then, he's as good, once, as he ever was. Patrick's a warm, comfortable afghan that's now worn, and with some large holes: if you fold it just right, it can still do the job, and be a warm, comforting thing ... as opposed to the wet, mildewy, ugly blanket that is and always has been Len Elmore.

I really have to agree a lot with your comments. I used to love Mike's play by play. It is painful when he makes mistakes now, almost like when a grandparent gets a bit senile. But Mike loves the game and tries to be impartial. He used to be a little like Dickie V back before the schtick got old.
Putting Elmore with Patrick is unfair to the listener and unfair to Patrick.

[Rudy]

Nolan does defend himself with his non-dribbling arm and often pushes back too far. The last call against him you could see on the replay that he was fending off the reach in but IMO he did not push against the defender's body. I worry that refs in the tournament might start calling him on it more often, perhaps because defenders having scouted Nolan start flopping on the push backs.

[cruxer]

Me too. If Nolan Smith and Seth Curry had been whistled for all the blatant pushoffs earlier in the game, both would've been fouled out with 10 minutes remaining in the second half. .

In defense of the officiating (and maybe Elmore, whom I'm loathe to defend since I think his bias is clear), I was sitting directly behind the Clemson bench so I had a better view of the Duke's offensive basket in the 1st half than those who watched on tv or the announcers up in the rafters. This was a difficult game to officiate because it was incredibly physical both on and off the ball. I don't exaggerate when I say every dribble, screen and off-ball cut were contested. This is great defensive strategy if your team has the energy to do it. Officials simply can't blow the whistle for every bit of contact in that type of game. I saw tons of contact throughout the game that could have been whistled but wasn't, clearly in an attempt to allow the game to play as the coaches had strategized.

Often the physicality of a guard (or Singler on occasion) driving to the basket was simply responding to physicality of the defender. I don't really think there's anything wrong with that style of play. Go to any playground in America and the game is played the same way. What I saw last night was simply executed at a much higher level. You have to be physically and mentally tougher than your opponent to win.


-c

[vlove]

this is particularly tough, since i used to really enjoy elmore about 20 years ago when he first broke in as a color guy on the raycom/jp broadcasts (typically paired with brad nessler), but len has devolved into a complete parody of himself over the course of the past decade on espn.

its gotten to the stage that you could probably create some sort of "duke gets all the calls" automated voice bot, replace len in the broadcast booth, & absolutely no one would know he was missing- including the guy sitting next to him, mike patrick, but that is a whole other discussion...

i'm not sure if he's still involved in the athlete representation venture he attempted to set up many years ago, but his return to broadcasting after a brief hiatus working on that venture has really been poor, trademarked by his agenda-driven commentary he delivers. what that agenda is, who knows, since i rarely see him get so worked up about block/charge & other call disparities in non-duke games, although admittedly i don't watch enough of these games to pay any close attention to his ramblings.

simply using a few examples from last night, len was incensed that:

a) nolan having a hand on the ball wasn't called a foul on him- "you can't have one hand on the ball"- yes len, you can;

b) a few minutes later, a tie up is called, & len goes off that the refs should have let the clemson player (stitt?) wrestle the ball away from nolan (who this time had the len-approved 2 hands on the ball) before calling the tie-up; regardless if this is even the correct rules interpretation, its not even consistent with his own explanation from the play mentioned before;

c) the travel on stitt when thor very clearly backed off of him, which even upon replay, len demanded blood over.

this doesn't even touch upon the non-calls that len somehow missed (handchecking from clemson on nolan that led to at least 2 off the push-off calls).

ultimately, it's not that len is usually wrong and/or annoying that grates on me when listening to him broadcast- it's that he's completely and utterly predictable in doing so.

[oldnavy]

I'll accept your stats at face value, but (as you probably know), they are, at bottom, meaningless, because they do not address which team commits more fouls. For those stats to have value, you have to assume that each team fouls equally, over time, and so you should expect an equal number of fouls to be committed. I would say that depends very much on style of defense, and I think ours is pretty average (at worst) in terms of physicality.

What I am saying is that in the 30 games we have played, Duke has been whistled for more fouls or the equal number of fouls as our opponent in 12 of those games. If we were getting all the calls then we would expect to be whistled for less fouls in a much higher percentage of the games, say 25 or so. I looked for total fouls called against teams, but could not find a quick refernce. The number of FTA is less telling, but it does argue against us getting more calls, since there are two other teams that go to the line more than us.

Granted it is not a scientific analysis, but a quick snapshot that would tend to debunk us getting ALL the calls, which is ridiculous. I believe others have posted better statistical data in other threads.

[sagegrouse]

Granted, Patrick does enable Elmore a bit. Granted, Patrick does make a lot more mistakes than he used to, which can be painful. Patrick used to be one of the very best: to my ears, there was and is not much better than a patented Duke run accompanied by a spot-on Patrick call rising to a crescendo. As the man says, it's true that he's not as good as he once was, but every now and then, he's as good, once, as he ever was. Patrick's a warm, comfortable afghan that's now worn, and with some large holes: if you fold it just right, it can still do the job, and be a warm, comforting thing ... as opposed to the wet, mildewy, ugly blanket that is and always has been Len Elmore.

Patrick had open-heart surgery a few years ago, and I don't think he is as good an announcer as he was. He is pleasant and easy to listen to but makes mistakes.

I don't really have a problem with the perceived biases by Elmore, Bilas and others.


First, I don't trust my judgment when my team is involved.

Second, the announcers' main responsibility to their employers is to keep everyone watching. This usually means pumping up the prospects of the underdog. I am really pleased that Duke is not often the underdog and am prepared to live with a little leaning the other way. In other words, it comes with the territory of being a top basketball program.

My real problem with Len and, in his day, Billy Packer is, why all the negativity? And, Johnny Miller of NBCand PGA announcing, are you listening? Basketball is a game. The fans and the players should be having fun. (The coaches? Not so much.) Raftery is the most joyful of the color men. Gminski and Bilas are excellent and cut from the same bolt of blue cloth: insightful, smart, well-spoken, and sardonic. Bilas has a sharper edge; his wit can be deadly: "Ryan Harrow has a voice that can only be heard by dogs."

sagegrouse

[Reilly]

Agreed on Elmore's negativity. That's a problem. An additional problem for Duke fans is that he couples his negativity with an anti-Duke bias, making his unhinged comments especially grating to a Duke fan. If he gave the same performance in a UNC/Wake game against one of the teams, it'd be annoying and unhinged; when it's our team, it's infuriating.

That was, in many respects, a helluva game last night: two tremendous warrior seniors on senior night going for a second consecutive undefeated home season ... Duke, formerly #1, bouncing back from a road loss and needing to keep pace with UNC who dramatically won minutes before the start of the Duke game ... the big season finale rivalry coming up ... Clemson's star coming off IVs to play w/ moxie and Clemson on the bubble ... Clemson locking down on D ... everything contested .... and we get "you can't have one hand on the ball" ... "TT falling backwards is a foul" .... and a 10.1 second violation followed up by a foul on the offending team taking the ball away is game-changing ....

[cruxer]

If {Elmore} gave the same performance in a UNC/Wake game against one of the teams, it'd be annoying and unhinged; when it's our team, it's infuriating.

Even with my Duke-blue tinged eardrums I hear nearly the same level of bias against UNC. He clearly has the typical terp ACC inferiority complex. He is also biased towards bigs vs littles on the court, which is more understandable, given the position he played.

-c

[devilsadvocate85]

What I am saying is that in the 30 games we have played, Duke has been whistled for more fouls or the equal number of fouls as our opponent in 12 of those games. If we were getting all the calls then we would expect to be whistled for less fouls in a much higher percentage of the games, say 25 or so. I looked for total fouls called against teams, but could not find a quick refernce. The number of FTA is less telling, but it does argue against us getting more calls, since there are two other teams that go to the line more than us.

Granted it is not a scientific analysis, but a quick snapshot that would tend to debunk us getting ALL the calls, which is ridiculous. I believe others have posted better statistical data in other threads.

This is even more significant when you take into account that Duke has been ahead in all but 3 of those games when they ended, leading to the likelihood that opponents were committing fouls at the end of games in order to try to catch up. Therefore during the run of "regular" play as opposed to end of game situation, there is likely an even smaller difference in the number of fouls called.

[dball]

Didn't see this mentioned. Did you notice a couple of plays by Clemson's Grant? In one, he uses two hands to shove Mason and continues to violently body up. So much so that the baseline official actually went on to the court, tapped him and cautioned him to cool it.

Later, Grant blatantly shoves Tyler with two hands while going for a rebound.

Pretty surprised the first, at least, wasn't called a foul.

[PaIronDuke]

It is difficult for me to imagine Len Elmore's supervisor viewing his performance last night and not, at a minimum, reprimanding him for his unprofessionalism.

Prior posters have provided abundant examples, but perhaps the best way to sum it up is this: a guy wearing glasses sitting in the rafters at CIS implying that he can call fouls better than three officials with the best veiws in the house.

'Nuff said.....

[OldPhiKap]

There's always the option of actually complaining to ESPN...

http://espn.go.com/espn/contact

(I thought I'd make it a little more prominent than in G's post)

Just knocking this to the top in case you haven't seen it but skipped to the end.

[mapei]

One of the things about this that I really don't like (and Packer may have popularized it) is this notion that the announcers should call the officiating instead of the game. Why focus on fouls instead of all the athleticism on the floor?

As for Elmore, I have generally found him tolerable or better and have wondered what all the fuss was about. Until last night. He was obnoxious and one-sided from start to finish. I get it now.

[Neals384]

My favorite Elmore-ism of the week was not in the Duke-Clem game but in Tuesday's BC-VPI game. Elmore - "BC simply doesn't have the ability to compete with Tech in the paint." Next play - Reggie Jackson drives to the hoop for a dunk! I loved it!

[Papa John]

Didn't see this mentioned. Did you notice a couple of plays by Clemson's Grant? In one, he uses two hands to shove Mason and continues to violently body up. So much so that the baseline official actually went on to the court, tapped him and cautioned him to cool it.

I recall the play in question, and think a foul wasn't called because Mason wasn't giving an inch and was pushing back, thus the reason why the baseline official stepped over -- to tell them both to ease up a bit and keep it clean or he'd start saddling them with fouls. That was my take.

[BobbyFan]

I tend to err on the side of caution before attributing bias to a commentator. And although I never doubted that Elmore rooted against us, I felt he did a decent job from letting it show in his words. But he sure let it all out in the Clemson game. Along with the fact that he has the personality of a table, he was just impossible to listen to.

[Reilly]

... Along with the fact that he has the personality of a table .....

Comparing Elmore to a table is a little uncalled for, and just plain wrong, in my opinion. Tables are useful, never demonstrably wrong, and they rarely offend.

[OldPhiKap]

Comparing Elmore to a table is a little uncalled for, and just plain wrong, in my opinion. Tables are useful, never demonstrably wrong, and they rarely offend.

You can level a table.

[SMO]

Elmore is still at it. During tonight's MD v NCSU game Elmore mentioned the 10 second call at Duke from over a week ago. He described it as "controversial". Can't wait to hear the game he calls if he is assigned to a Duke v. MD match-up tomorrow.

[DukeGirl4ever]

I think I counted 679 times that he mentioned Duke lost 2 out of the last 3....:mad:

[Son of Mojo]

The local affiliate that has been showing the tournament today hasn't been showing the Maryland/State game tonight in lieu of showing "exciting" cbs programming so far..........whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

[wilson]

The local affiliate that has been showing the tournament today hasn't been showing the Maryland/State game tonight in lieu of showing "exciting" cbs programming so far..........whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?ESPN has the night games.

[Dr. Tina]

I groaned when I turned over to the MD-NCS game only to hear Elmore and Patrick announcing....*sigh*

[-jk]

The local affiliate that has been showing the tournament today hasn't been showing the Maryland/State game tonight in lieu of showing "exciting" cbs programming so far..........whyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy?

ESPN still has the exclusive to the 7:00 Thu game - left over from the 9 team format - AKA The Les Robinson Invitational.

-jk

[jv001]

I groaned when I turned over to the MD-NCS game only to hear Elmore and Patrick announcing....*sigh*

MUTE! I will never listen to Len Elmore again. Not as long as I have the mute button available. Go Duke!

[dukee94]

To see how many more times you get to hear Len Elmore explain that Duke lost 2 out of their last 3, please check out: http://www.satellitetv-news.com/2011-championship-week-broadcast-schedule-on-espn/. At least tomorrow it looks like Dan Shulman replaces Mike Patrick, at least in the afternoon.

If only the ACC tournament was in 3D instead of the Big East . . . .

[jdj4duke]

If only the ACC tournament was in 3D instead of the Big East . . . .

I thought the ACC tournament was in Greensboro.

[dukee94]

I thought the ACC tournament was in Greensboro.

Good catch. I have been enjoying the Big East in 3D with alternate commentators. No Billy "Man-to-man" Raftery. Seriously, is anybody else watching in 3D? I am far more impressed than I expected.

[Greg_Newton]

Can we use this thread as a live Len Elmore terping log during the game tonight? Duke-Maryland in the ACC tournament when he's near the boiling point anyway promises for an epic terpformance.

[Faison1]

If I saw Len Elmore in person, I might plant him. I'm not sure how much more I can take from him. That guy is un-frickin'-believable!

Does ESPN make him do Duke games just because they know he will follow the narrative?

[OldPhiKap]

Len did a good job tonight. Maybe the write-in comments worked.

[hurleyfor3]

He made his "Duke lost two of its last three" mention at the very last possible moment, right before the buzzer.

[Faison1]

Len did a good job tonight. Maybe the write-in comments worked.

Are you kidding me? I don't use the word "hate" very much....in fact, never....but Elmore brings me awfully close.

I found nothing redeeming about his work tonight.

[micah75]

Len said something at the very end (sorry, no exact quote), that Duke won despite Maryland making turnovers, mistakes, and not shooting their free throws. Well, duh. Usually the losing team is going to fall short in at least 2 of those categories, if not more.

[DU82]

The ACC had Cory Alexander as the color man. First time I'd heard him on a game. Not great, but not bad, and not Elmore.

[oldnavy]

Len said something at the very end (sorry, no exact quote), that Duke won despite Maryland making turnovers, mistakes, and not shooting their free throws. Well, duh. Usually the losing team is going to fall short in at least 2 of those categories, if not more.

Got the local feed with Tim Brando and Corey Alexander. I must say Corey Alexander is by far better than most, he did a very good job tonight IMO. Hope he gets more air time, he is MUCH better than Elmore!!

[Orange&BlackSheep]

was his inability to consider that Gregory running through Singler and knocking him over on that fastbreak turned scrum could possibly be considered a foul. Even as Mike Patrick said he thought it was.

[Greg_Newton]

Len did a good job tonight. Maybe the write-in comments worked.

Yeah, I also found him surprisingly inoffensive tonight. It was weird.

[SMO]

Yeah, I also found him surprisingly inoffensive tonight. It was weird.

In an effort to give credit where it is due, I concur. We'll see if he can keep it up.

[Buckeye Devil]

Since there was a thread about Len Elmore, why not on Mike Patrick. I thought the worst thing that he said was about Kyle Singler. Kyle drove to the hoop and got some space between himself and the Terp defender by using his left elbow a little bit. Patrick said that he had done that many times in his career. What kind of comment was that? Where are the stats to back it up?

And was it me or was he almost orgasmic over Stoglin? After he hit a shot in the lane Patrick was singing his praises and saying how easily he could make those great athletic moves. At that point, Stoglin was 1 for 5 on FG's and had 3 points. He later made another comment about Stoglin after his second field goal to the effect of how much he liked him. He should adopt Stoglin if he feels that way about him.

He and Elmore are the absolute worst combo to broadcast college basketball. As Patrick would say, "Holy Cow!"

[Saratoga2]

Since there was a thread about Len Elmore, why not on Mike Patrick. I thought the worst thing that he said was about Kyle Singler. Kyle drove to the hoop and got some space between himself and the Terp defender by using his left elbow a little bit. Patrick said that he had done that many times in his career. What kind of comment was that? Where are the stats to back it up?

And was it me or was he almost orgasmic over Stoglin? After he hit a shot in the lane Patrick was singing his praises and saying how easily he could make those great athletic moves. At that point, Stoglin was 1 for 5 on FG's and had 3 points. He later made another comment about Stoglin after his second field goal to the effect of how much he liked him. He should adopt Stoglin if he feels that way about him.

He and Elmore are the absolute worst combo to broadcast college basketball. As Patrick would say, "Holy Cow!"

I often think that Vitale is the worst of all. Elmore knows more and sticks with the game but shows bias and Patrick is just not that aware of what is going on and his mouth is not in sync with his mind (or maybe it is)

[Buckeye Devil]

It was killing him to admit that Kyle was passing David Thompson, though, on the all-time ACC scoring list. He talked about how there needed to be an asterik beside Thompson's name since he did it in only 3 years. And he did not seem to like that fact that 5 of the all time 10 top scorers in the ACC were from Duke. Too bad, Len.

[CDu]

pretty sure Patrick was making reference too Singler getting called for a charge - and that taking a charge is something Singler had done so many times before (he had made a similar comment a few moments earlier when Singler took a charge). It was just not well said, but the thought was more of a "the tables are turned on Singler there" idea.

[Buckeye Devil]

pretty sure Patrick was making reference too Singler getting called for a charge - and that taking a charge is something Singler had done so many times before (he had made a similar comment a few moments earlier when Singler took a charge). It was just not well said, but the thought was more of a "the tables are turned on Singler there" idea.

Maybe you are right, but I sure didn't take it that way.

[Richard Berg]

About time we had one of these. I don't get the Elmore complaints -- sure he's no Duke fan, but so what? At least he knows what he's talking about (and sticks to the actual game at hand). Mike Patrick is 100x stupider.

Example: every time someone posts the '06 VPI clip, I have to hear the phrase "Dockery does it for Duke again!" Um, which other game winners did he make?

By contrast, the best part of the "gone in 60 seconds" clip is when the audio track cuts out ;)

[weezie]

I noticed something interesting while watching the game. Mumbley Elmore and Gaspy Patrick seem to fade into the subvolume if you just yell more at the tv.

And having Kersey and Karl (who both called one of their less egregious games) to keep and eye on is a good distraction from the booth clowns.

[Vincetaylor]

As much as we complain about the play by play on this board, I would like to acknowledge a great job tonight by Brando and Alexander during the MD game. I hope Alexander is around for years to come. He does a great job.

[Lord Ash]

Hm. Terrible title change on this thread. Way to "talk down" to an awful lot of folks who posted in this thread agreeing with some of what had been said.

[gumbomoop]

How about a whiny complaint about DirecTV? Well, maybe this is more like comic relief.

So, I'm watching the first half of the VaT-FSU game. Leave the TV for a few minutes, return to find the following messages on my ESPN2 channel:

1. "College Basketball is blacked out on this channel."
2. "Sorry, it is also not viewable on any other channels."

You can't make up this stuff.

[weezie]

Hm. Terrible title change on this thread. Way to "talk down" to an awful lot of folks who posted in this thread agreeing with some of what had been said.

I guess we're all going to have to go sit in the corner now...

[sagegrouse]

And was it me or was he almost orgasmic over Stoglin? After he hit a shot in the lane Patrick was singing his praises and saying how easily he could make those great athletic moves. At that point, Stoglin was 1 for 5 on FG's and had 3 points. He later made another comment about Stoglin after his second field goal to the effect of how much he liked him. He should adopt Stoglin if he feels that way about him.

He and Elmore are the absolute worst combo to broadcast college basketball. As Patrick would say, "Holy Cow!"

To be fair, they both pointed out that neither Terrell Stoglin or Pe'shon Howard have had any success against Duke in previous games, scoring only about five points combined per game. Tonight Stoglin, who was averaging something like 19 PPG in recent outings, was 2-10 for six points with five turonovers. Howard did better, scoring 10 points in 16 minutes with a perfect 3-3 from the field.

And, of course, announcers always boost the prospects of the underdog -- it's covered in Sports Broadcasting 101 -- your job is to keep the viewers tuned in.

sagegrouse

[BobbyFan]

Hm. Terrible title change on this thread.

Agreed.

[hurleyfor3]

Message received. I guess we're all a little on edge this time of year.

[Atlanta Duke]

Thread title changed again

I guess Len Elmore is not the only person who apparently responds to feedback;)

[Vincetaylor]

Agreed.

Agreed as well. Nothing wrong with complaining about the announcers. It's more wrong to complain about people who complain about the announcers. Sometimes I think David Stern is monitoring this board.

[diveonthefloor]

Please someone tell Mike Patrick that the shot needs to leave the shooter's hand before the shot clock expires; Mike said again tonight that the shot needs to go in the basket before the shot clock expires.

:(

[hurley1]

Since there was a thread about Len Elmore, why not on Mike Patrick. I thought the worst thing that he said was about Kyle Singler. Kyle drove to the hoop and got some space between himself and the Terp defender by using his left elbow a little bit. Patrick said that he had done that many times in his career. What kind of comment was that? Where are the stats to back it up?

And was it me or was he almost orgasmic over Stoglin? After he hit a shot in the lane Patrick was singing his praises and saying how easily he could make those great athletic moves. At that point, Stoglin was 1 for 5 on FG's and had 3 points. He later made another comment about Stoglin after his second field goal to the effect of how much he liked him. He should adopt Stoglin if he feels that way about him.

He and Elmore are the absolute worst combo to broadcast college basketball. As Patrick would say, "Holy Cow!"

without a doubt, they are slanted SEVERELY against duke......i honestly believe they would pull for red china if they were playing duke....i think it would be very fitting for these 2 moaners to join the terps cheerleaders when they do their " little thing " at halftime.....elmore in bloomers....imagine that.....;)

[Cicero]

Here in Durham (TWC) we had Tim Brando and Cory Alexander (former UVA player). No complaints.

[dukee94]

How about a whiny complaint about DirecTV? Well, maybe this is more like comic relief.

So, I'm watching the first half of the VaT-FSU game. Leave the TV for a few minutes, return to find the following messages on my ESPN2 channel:

1. "College Basketball is blacked out on this channel."
2. "Sorry, it is also not viewable on any other channels."

You can't make up this stuff.

Weird, I watched on ESPN2 via DirecTV with no problems.

[gumbomoop]

Weird, I watched on ESPN2 via DirecTV with no problems.

Yep, weird. For about 15 min after the end of the VaT-FSU game [which I have now seen on highlights], still blacked out. Suddenly, at a little before midnight, ESPN2 reappeared. Someone asleep at the proverbial switch, I guess.

Tomorrow's ACCT semis are listed on DirecTV as on both ESPN and my local ABC affiliate, carrying the "ACC Network." I'm pretty sure it will be blacked out on ESPN, so [thread relevance] I'm thinking I'll get Gminski on ACC Network. Good. Maybe even Dan Bonner for one of the games?? Even better.

[dukee94]

Yep, weird. For about 15 min after the end of the VaT-FSU game [which I have now seen on highlights], still blacked out. Suddenly, at a little before midnight, ESPN2 reappeared. Someone asleep at the proverbial switch, I guess.

Tomorrow's ACCT semis are listed on DirecTV as on both ESPN and my local ABC affiliate, carrying the "ACC Network." I'm pretty sure it will be blacked out on ESPN, so [thread relevance] I'm thinking I'll get Gminski on ACC Network. Good. Maybe even Dan Bonner for one of the games?? Even better.

Are you in an ACC market? I guess they could black out ESPN if you have a local option. Even if that is true, though, it should have found the game on an alternate channel for you. I've had really good results with the blackout/channel finder on DirecTV.

For thread relevance, for people who don't like their commentators (which is pretty much all of them for me except for Bobby Knight), almost all HD channels broadcast correctly in dolby 5.1 these days. If you have a full speaker setup just unplug your center and front speakers and all you will hear is blissful crowd noise out of the rear speakers. With today's game I heard absolutely no Elmore or Patrick, but could actually hear the players call out to each other near the basket.

[gumbomoop]

Are you in an ACC market? I guess they could black out ESPN if you have a local option. Even if that is true, though, it should have found the game on an alternate channel for you. I've had really good results with the blackout/channel finder on DirecTV.

Yes, I'm in an ACC market, but I got both the Duke game and the VaT-FSU game on ESPN2 - until the 2d half of the VaT-FSU game, when, truly out of nowhere, I got those messages about blackout. I also got the DirecTV message saying they were searching for an alternate channel, but couldn't find one - because, I think, the various Raycom-ACC Network possibles in my area had already given the night session to ESPN2. I'm further guessing that, had UNC been in the night session, one of my local Raycom stations would have televised the night session, or at least the UNC game.

I'm guessing someone just screwed up. The game should not have been blacked out [and the first half wasn't....] on ESPN2 in my area, as none of my area's Raycom-ACC Network possibles [of which, amazingly enough, there are actually 3!], had the evening session. I referred to this in my original post as "comic relief"'; but, had the Duke game been the one that disappeared halfway through, I would not have been amused.

Anyhow, for tomorrow, I'm gonna get the Raycom announcers rather than Dickie V, so I'm gold.

[ns7]

Yes, I'm in an ACC market, but I got both the Duke game and the VaT-FSU game on ESPN2 - until the 2d half of the VaT-FSU game, when, truly out of nowhere, I got those messages about blackout. I also got the DirecTV message saying they were searching for an alternate channel, but couldn't find one - because, I think, the various Raycom-ACC Network possibles in my area had already given the night session to ESPN2. I'm further guessing that, had UNC been in the night session, one of my local Raycom stations would have televised the night session, or at least the UNC game.

I'm guessing someone just screwed up. The game should not have been blacked out [and the first half wasn't....] on ESPN2 in my area, as none of my area's Raycom-ACC Network possibles [of which, amazingly enough, there are actually 3!], had the evening session. I referred to this in my original post as "comic relief"'; but, had the Duke game been the one that disappeared halfway through, I would not have been amused.

Anyhow, for tomorrow, I'm gonna get the Raycom announcers rather than Dickie V, so I'm gold.

DTV forgot to blackout the Duke-Maryland game tonight. I was surprised but still watched the ACC feed to avoid Patrick-Elmore despite the horrible picture quality from Raycom.

[oldnavy]

As much as we complain about the play by play on this board, I would like to acknowledge a great job tonight by Brando and Alexander during the MD game. I hope Alexander is around for years to come. He does a great job.

I posted the same thing on the Elmore post. I thought that Brando was his usual self meaning he tries a little too hard sometimes to make things into issues that may not be, but Alexander did a fantastic job IMO.

He was level headed, would bring up counter points to Brand, specifically on one possession where Maryland struggled on offense and had a shot clock violation or turnover late in the shot clock (not sure), Brand said that was an awful offensive possession for UM, but Corey quickly and accurately said that it was a Great defensive possess for Duke.

I liked him a lot, sorry for the folks that got stuck with that worn out pair of Elmore and Patrick... I actually didn't have to mute this one..

[Lord Ash]

I felt that Len did his best game last night. There were a few iffy calls and non-calls during the game last night, but he didn't harp on them for multiple plays, which he tends to do. Rather, he either ignored them or he mentioned them, as he should, but then "let it go." It did make it a lot more fun to listen to. I wonder if it was because it was a game involving Maryland? Has anyone ever noticed if Len tries to be more "neutral" sounding when his school is involved?

As for Patrick, I give him a lot of slack, because I think he is a nice fellow who enjoys the game and does a decent job.

[dukebluelemur]

I can understand combining threads when there are multiple similar ones put up over a short span, but it seems over-zealous to me to take a thread that has been up for several days and suddenly disappear it into an old one. My observation is that it usually effectively kills the conversation.

[-jk]

I can understand combining threads when there are multiple similar ones put up over a short span, but it seems over-zealous to me to take a thread that has been up for several days and suddenly disappear it into an old one. My observation is that it usually effectively kills the conversation.

Not sure who did it, but it was mostly a renaming rather than a massive merge. This is the original Elmore thread that grew to cover many more announcers. The new title merely reflects the expanded coverage.

Also, there have been more than 20 posts in the last 12 hours - hardly dead (alas).

-jk

[wilson]

Digger Phelps just said that he thinks Seth Curry needs to be an X-factor today. Totally reasonable.
Then he mentioned "Lance Thomas coming off the bench."
Ye gods. Palm, meet face.

[dalmatians98]

Digger Phelps just said that he thinks Seth Curry needs to be an X-factor today. Totally reasonable.
Then he mentioned "Lance Thomas coming off the bench."
Ye gods. Palm, meet face.

Second time this year to my knowledge that Digger's done that. The ESPN producers really need to tell him about Tyler Thornton.

[AsiaMinor]

Dear Announcers: Call the damn game. I don't care who you had dinner with, what happened in 1947 when these teams met previously, what might happen in the Final Four weeks from now. I don't want 30 seconds of someone on the bench weeping/acting out/or sitting there in street clothes. I don't care about your career 10-20-30 years ago. I WANT TO KNOW ABOUT THE GAME. Who fouled whom, who just came in, what was that play these are important, mention them. And most of all, I want Bobby Knight all the time. Love ya, Mean it - AsiaMinor, a girl but still a fan.
PS I also don't care about the cheerleaders but I know I'm in the minority.

[ajgoodfella7]

Reggie Miller is a color man for the UTEP-Memphis game today. Really enjoying his commentating so far. I am excited that some of the TNT NBA announcers will be doing the tournament this year.

[Papa John]

Digger Phelps just said that he thinks Seth Curry needs to be an X-factor today. Totally reasonable.
Then he mentioned "Lance Thomas coming off the bench."
Ye gods. Palm, meet face.

Sweet! We get to bring Lance off the bench? I had no idea he had eligibility left! Thanks for that tidbit, Digger! Great research!

[hedgehog]

Digger Phelps just said that he thinks Seth Curry needs to be an X-factor today. Totally reasonable.
Then he mentioned "Lance Thomas coming off the bench."
Ye gods. Palm, meet face.

JayBilas on Twitter (with a nice background of Jay surfing of DUMB members with the old style Blue Devil mascot looking on):

"Digger currently on a call with the Committee, explaining the impact of Lance Thomas on Duke's seed. I think Gene Banks just as important."

http://twitter.com/JayBilas

[weezie]

GEE WHIZ, WHY can't we ever get Gus Johnson at one of our games?

He was stupendous at the Pac-10 tourney last night. That WA-AZ game was terrific and Gus brought all his tricks out of the bag during the OTs.

I am developing a serious crush on him :cool:

[CoachJ10]

but listening to him the last 2 days has been brutal. His ability to focus on the game at hand is just getting worse and worse.

ESPN should have a nice, laudatory show after the season...thanking Dick for his many years of adding to the fun of college basketball, and then send him off to retirement.

[Indoor66]

I had Giminski & Brando and totally enjoyed the commentary.

[weezie]

Yeah, for a change, it was delightful!!! :D

[CoachJ10]

I had Giminski & Brando and totally enjoyed the commentary.

Lucky you. ESPN could do a lot worse than to have the G-Man over some of the yahoos they throw on the air.

[hedgehog]

I had Giminski & Brando and totally enjoyed the commentary.

I believe it was Gminkski and Brandt, not Brando.

[MChambers]

I generally liked the job Alexander did this weekend, but my son claims that he said that Oliver Purnell was doing a good job with Clemson. Anyone else hear this?

Also, Brandt is just not very good, especially with anything that involves mathematics. Said Nolan's dad won his NCAA title 20 years before Nolan, in 1980, and also said Duke had had a double digit lead since the score was 17-8.

[Reilly]

....

Also, Brandt is just not very good, especially with anything that involves mathematics. Said Nolan's dad won his NCAA title 20 years before Nolan, in 1980, and also said Duke had had a double digit lead since the score was 17-8.

... and that Duke and Carolina were meeting for the 30th time in the ACCT champ game .... Brandt's obtuse, sort of a parody of an announcer, saying the things he thinks he's supposed to say, but they don't make a whole lot of sense ... thank God for G-man, he's as sharp and astute as Brandt is dull

[Chris Randolph]

I love how Doug bashes Duke every which way possible because we always prove him wrong :)

Doug is jealous, pretty simple. He wanted to be Wojo and never was. He thought he was better and deserved the attention but never got it. Jealousy

Please feel free to bash on Doug Gottlieb....

[rthomas]

So this is an open forum to give him more attention?

[SuperTurkey]

So this is an open forum to give him more attention?

Word. On a day when we win the ACC Tourney by smoking UNC, I just can't see getting butthurt over Gottlieb.

[Chris Randolph]

So this is an open forum to give him more attention?

I figured he was getting too much attention in threads that don't need it so why not make a thread to bash him in

[hudlow]

He's kinda like Nancy Grace...what's the point?

GO DUKE!!!

[papa whiskey]

http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/The-longest-minute-of-ESPN-analyst-Doug-Gottlieb?urn=ncaab-wp545

[1 24 90]

That'll teach him for picking Texas to win the West region.

[SMO]

I love how Doug bashes Duke every which way possible because we always prove him wrong :)

Doug is jealous, pretty simple. He wanted to be Wojo and never was. He thought he was better and deserved the attention but never got it. Jealousy

Please feel free to bash on Doug Gottlieb....

Have you seen this??? Hilariously unprofessional!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsmSbauNRGg

[Devilsfan]

It has always bothered me how the sports industry continues to hire announcers, color men and analysts with sketchy backgrounds like Gottlieb, Irvin, LT, etc. It sends the wrong message to our youth. Do whatever you want because America has a very short memory and you can make "big bucks" regardless of your past record. This just seems to make the people with high intelligence and integrity like our Jay Bilas much more appealing.

[wilson]

Alaa Abdelnaby sighting (well, hearing). He's part of the Westwood One radio team doing tournament coverage. I caught some of him last night doing color commentary (Do they call it that on the radio? There isn't any color.) for the Alabama St.-UTSA game. His analysis was good, and his voice was just the sort of articulate one we've come to expect from our graduates.
He was on NBA TV for a little while a couple of years back, but had sort of disappeared (before resurfacing a little bit during the recent Egypt crisis). Glad to see (er, hear) him doing well.

[BlueDevilBaby]

... and that Duke and Carolina were meeting for the 30th time in the ACCT champ game .... Brandt's obtuse, sort of a parody of an announcer, saying the things he thinks he's supposed to say, but they don't make a whole lot of sense ... thank God for G-man, he's as sharp and astute as Brandt is dull

Could it have something to do with where they went to school?;) (just joshing!)

[phaedrus]

It has always bothered me how the sports industry continues to hire announcers, color men and analysts with sketchy backgrounds like Gottlieb, Irvin, LT, etc. It sends the wrong message to our youth. Do whatever you want because America has a very short memory and you can make "big bucks" regardless of your past record. This just seems to make the people with high intelligence and integrity like our Jay Bilas much more appealing.

Not into second chances, huh?

[gw67]

... and that Duke and Carolina were meeting for the 30th time in the ACCT champ game .... Brandt's obtuse, sort of a parody of an announcer, saying the things he thinks he's supposed to say, but they don't make a whole lot of sense ... thank God for G-man, he's as sharp and astute as Brandt is dull

I disagree but I am biased toward play-by-play types that know a little bit about ACC history and Brant does. Neither he nor Gminski/Bonner are perfect but I like them for ACC games.

Actually, I set the bar pretty low for ACC and NCAAT games although some of the pro types doing the games seem pretty clueless about college basketball.

gw67

[dairedevil]

JayBilas on Twitter (with a nice background of Jay surfing of DUMB members with the old style Blue Devil mascot looking on):

"Digger currently on a call with the Committee, explaining the impact of Lance Thomas on Duke's seed. I think Gene Banks just as important."

http://twitter.com/JayBilas

followed your link to Jay's twitter....and found this. Boy, he's on a roll with digs at Digger...

"Digger said Jimmer Fredette is "on a mission." If he's on a mission, you can't pick BYU for two years. They should tell us that in advance."

hilarious!

http://twitter.com/JayBilas

[CLW]

Do we know who is calling the First Round (er 2nd Round) and hopefully the 2nd (3rd Round) Duke games?

[Magnolia888]

followed your link to Jay's twitter....and found this. Boy, he's on a roll with digs at Digger...
http://twitter.com/JayBilas

I love Jay so much. I know people get annoyed at him, but man he really knows his stuff.

Did anyone hear him and/or see him on the Mike and Mike show yesterday? He was practically singing the praises of Kyrie the whole time, and when asked "who is the best NBA player currently playing in college?" he responded Kyrie with no hesitation.

When asked who he would vote for president if he had to choose somebody from the basketball world, he responded Shane Battier, and Grant Hill as his backup choice, saying they are more thoughtful than most people, and that Shane just thinks on a higher plane. And Shane would actually take the job, unlike most people.

And when asked about his Twitter account and how he gets away with all his digs at his colleagues, he said a) his wife made him do Twitter so he can talk with the youngsters, and 2) his older colleagues would never be able to find Twitter so they have no idea what he is saying about them. I'm paraphrasing but it was funny. :)

I also hate Len Elmore. He should not be calling Duke games at all.

[gumbomoop]

For those who bemoan Jay Bilas's and Jay Williams's tendency to bend over backwards to show no Duke-favoritism, I give you a counter example in Kenny Smith.

An utterly charming guy, Kenny is pretty upfront about his Heel-bias. In response to Barkley's [on the mark] analysis of how UW's turnovers killed them, The Jet's response was, "Carolina's on the bus, that's all that counts." Pretty perceptive comment from Kenny.

[1 24 90]

I really am not a fan of the NBA infestation of the NCAA Tourney. Marv Albert & Steve Kerr have no clue. Steve Kerr just mentioned 3 times that Texas A&M was playing Notre Dame (until some producer probably corrected him in his ear monitor) Marv Albert called Dogus Balbay, Balboy for about the first 5 minutes of the Texas game and I think he was calling Derrick Williams, Eric Williams.

Honestly, I'd much rather hear the ESPN guys that at least know the sport.

[uh_no]

I really am not a fan of the NBA infestation of the NCAA Tourney. Marv Albert & Steve Kerr have no clue. Steve Kerr just mentioned 3 times that Texas A&M was playing Notre Dame (until some producer probably corrected him in his ear monitor) Marv Albert called Dogus Balbay, Balboy for about the first 5 minutes of the Texas game and I think he was calling Derrick Williams, Eric Williams.

Honestly, I'd much rather hear the ESPN guys that at least know the sport.

Citing misinformations on who is playing who or mispronunciations is silly.

I agree with you, but its because the guys fail to understand the differences between the NBA and college game.

[WiJoe]

honestly, i'd much rather hear the espn guys that at least know the sport.

no no never never uh uh uh!!!!

no no never never uh uh uh!!!!

no no never never uh uh uh!!!!

no no never never uh uh uh!!!!

[WiJoe]

don't know who the doufus analyst is on FSU game, but he keeps calling No. 23 in white "hansburough"

Sheesh.

I'll still take cbs over anyone from espn.

[jammsb]

Gottlieb is co-hosting on Mike & Mike this morning in the stead of Mike Greenberg on ESPN 2. He took a gratuitous jab at the ACC in general and Duke and UNC in particular. He was speaking about the poor showings by the Big East and Big Ten in the tournament thus far. He said that one could make the argument that the ACC has done well with three of four entrants going to the Sweet Sixteen.
He however tempered his comments by saying that Duke and UNC barely scraped by and suggested that they would not have if they were anywhere but in a "home environment".
Mr Gottlieb there are two thoughts to keep in mind.
(1) Duke and UNC are in the Sweet Sixteen and 52 other teams are not.
(2) Charlotte, especially with UNC also being in the house is far from Duke homegrounds. There were far more people rooting against the Blue Devils than for them on Sunday.

[MulletMan]

Gottlieb is co-hosting on Mike & Mike this morning in the stead of Mike Greenberg on ESPN 2. He took a gratuitous jab at the ACC in general and Duke and UNC in particular. He was speaking about the poor showings by the Big East and Big Ten in the tournament thus far. He said that one could make the argument that the ACC has done well with three of four entrants going to the Sweet Sixteen.
He however tempered his comments by saying that Duke and UNC barely scraped by and suggested that they would not have if they were anywhere but in a "home environment".
Mr Gottlieb there are two thoughts to keep in mind.
(1) Duke and UNC are in the Sweet Sixteen and 52 other teams are not.
(2) Charlotte, especially with UNC also being in the house is far from Duke homegrounds. There were far more people rooting against the Blue Devils than for them on Sunday.

Who.
Cares?

I mean really... why do you give a rats butt what Gottleib says on a morning radio show? Duke is in the Sweet 16 and Gottleib never won anything except probation for stealing credit cards.

Who cares what he has to say?

[wilko]

Hes "alarmingly unjournalistic"

[MulletMan]

Who.
Cares?

I mean really... why do you give a rats butt what Gottleib says on a morning radio show? Duke is in the Sweet 16 and Gottleib never won anything except probation for stealing credit cards.

Who cares what he has to say?

This sounds harsh and I apologize, jammsb. What I'm trying to get at there is that you shouldn't let these talking heads get under your skin. I used to get upset at this kind of thing, but its much healthier to just ignore people like Gottleib. It allows me to save my ability to deal with stress for the last 2 minutes of games like yesterday! :cool:

[gw67]

This long thread is mostly negative (surprise). Well maybe it's my good mood because this is one of my favorite times of the year and my wife and I are at the beach but I don't feel like hating on anyone, even the NBA types in the studio (took dog for walk during halftimes). I even enjoyed the shouter, Gus Johnson. The group that I particularly liked was Engle, Spanarkel and Aldridge. All three really know basketball, are easy to listen to, and they provide value-added comments without infringing on the play.

gw67