MBB: Duke 83, Wake Forest 59 Post-Game Thread

[Bob Green]

Discuss the game here.

[Krzyzewskiville]

Seth curry seems to force many shots, maybe because he isn't getting the playing time he is used too. But, he forced a few deep threes today.

[DukeGirl4ever]

It's official. I will no longer listen to Len Elmore.
Did he seriously say we got tired down the stretch last year and that hurt us?

To quote Billy Madison, "Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

[uh_no]

Its clear that coach is working hard to get a new offense in place, and Kelly's unique ability is a large component of that. I think these changes are some of the reason that we lost to FSU and have had some close games.

That said, we let them stay in the game too long, but we are still a very good team. I wish we had some more late season challenge, but at least we will be fresh come march!

[Duke: A Dynasty]

+
Singler played well
Kelly drained everything
Miles played well again
Tyler got loads of PT
Team never gave up
Kansas and Cuse lost so we should move up to #3 in the rankings

-
Nolan shot badly
Seth still likes shooting 5 feet behind the arc (scoot up some and dont make it harder)
Dre was kinda non existent
Silly turnovers



Just off the top of my head

[proelitedota]

Ryan Kelly had a perfect game.

31 min 6-6 FGM/FGA 4-4 3PM/3PA 4-4 FTM/FTA 8 Boards 2 Steals 2 Assists 1 Blk 0 TO 0 PF 20 Pts.

That's Laettner-like.

[NovaScotian]

r kelly is player of the game for the ignition he provided to duke's offense.

[ncexnyc]

Its clear that coach is working hard to get a new offense in place, and Kelly's unique ability is a large component of that. I think these changes are some of the reason that we lost to FSU and have had some close games.

That said, we let them stay in the game too long, but we are still a very good team. I wish we had some more late season challenge, but at least we will be fresh come march!

Exactly who do you feel is worthy enough to give us a late season challenge?

[superdave]

That was an ugly game which started off with a flat-footed Blue Devil squad. They picked things up defensively about 5 minutes in.

I thought Wake rebounded well and did a nice job of clogging up the lane when Nolan tried to drive. They seemed to rotate a guy over just below the foul line to cut Nolan off. This has been the game plan for everyone in the ACC so far this year - cut off Nolan's drive, go for the strip. Time to adjust to our opponent's game plan.

Ryan Kelly had 20, which makes the 3rd straight game a different guy not named Kyle or Nolan has really stepped up. While that is a nice phenomenon, we're not getting consistently strong play out of 6-7 guys, it's more of a step-up du jour. Andre only played the first two plays of the 2nd half where he lost Gary Clark (?) for a 3 and then shot an airball. He was just off and sat the rest of the way.

Nice to get the win, but I hope that's our last slow start of 2011 and I hope to see players step up more consistently.

[CameronDuke]

Ryan Kelly was great today. Hit every shot he took. Singler was a warrior on offense and defense. Mason had a few good tip outs that reminded me of Zoubek. Nolan forced too many drives and shots, but still scored 20 or so for us. Things got chippy in the second half, Wake's squad is young and immature right now. Good road win, but this was expected. I like the new offense incorporating Kelly more and moving Thornton to the point for extended minutes. Miles looks solid in the new offense as well. Coach K is evidently working his magic in practice once again. I'm excited to see how this team plays down the stretch of the season!

Go Duke!

[stillcrazie]

+
Singler played well
Kelly drained everything
Miles played well again
Tyler got loads of PT
Team never gave up
Kansas and Cuse lost so we should move up to #3 in the rankings

-
Nolan shot badly
Seth still likes shooting 5 feet behind the arc (scoot up some and dont make it harder)
Dre was kinda non existent
Silly turnovers



Just off the top of my head

I was wondering if we would move up, but KS and Syracuse lost to ranked teams.

[uh_no]

Exactly who do you feel is worthy enough to give us a late season challenge?

I'm not sure what you're asking. I said we wouldn't have another good opponent. Obviously no one is 'worthy' of giving us a challenge, we are duke afterall. St. Johns is the closest we'll get to a decent opponent, and then there's UNC. But we seemed to do okay last year with the ACC not being super strong, so I'm not too worried.

[4decadedukie]

A truly GREAT game for an emerging top-tier Blue Devil.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

I was wondering if we would move up, but KS and Syracuse lost to ranked teams.

Cuse has lost twice now so yea they deff. fall. And as for Kansas I would think thay have to fall atleast one spot.

So it could be
1 Ohio State
2 Pitt
3 Kansas
4 Duke

or

1 Ohio State
2 Pitt
3 Duke
4 Kansas

[Duvall]

I was wondering if we would move up, but KS and Syracuse lost to ranked teams.

Both lost at home, though. I think they drop.

[taiw93]

Loved our team chemistry during that little scuffle. Kyle stood up for Tyler, Seth stood up for Mason, and Nolan got everyone back to the bench - all without engaging in any sort of physical contact with Wake in a game where they were up by a lot already. That's the mark of a team with really good character - color me impressed.

I also loved Ryan Kelly's vocal leadership, directing traffic on inbounds plays and the like. I had never seen this from him before, and found this as impressive as his shooting performance. He's also an extremely intelligent player. Always in the right place, and making the right pass.

The Plumlees appear to be really "getting it" as well. They have done a much better job of boxing out on the boards (though they still don't do it as much as I'd like), and are going "straight up" on blocks and on rebounds instead of hacking or going over the back. Hopefully, they can keep up this progress.

Lastly, loved Tyler's smart play on offense and intensity on defense. My only critique is that he tends to get a little flat-footed on D occasionally, allowing the opposing point guard to blow by him. When he stays on his toes, he is one of Duke's best on-ball defenders. He is going to be a really rock-solid player throughout his career.

All in all, a very well-played game by the good guys - I love the progress that this team is making in Kyrie's absence. The team is getting much smarter, and continues to have outstanding chemistry. Our stock should be rising as far as polls go this week, due to KU's loss at home to Texas (and Syracuse's home loss to Nova) - and our level of play is rising as well. Go Devils, keep up the good work!

[Duvall]

I'm not sure what you're asking. I said we wouldn't have another good opponent. Obviously no one is 'worthy' of giving us a challenge, we are duke afterall. St. Johns is the closest we'll get to a decent opponent, and then there's UNC.

What a bizarre claim. Virginia Tech, North Carolina and Temple are all better than St. John's, perhaps considerably better.

[Saratoga2]

This game inculded some interesting adjustments. Nolan is a great player, but even great players have off nights shooting the ball. He adjusted and still managed to score by going inside and getting to the foul line.

Seth and Andre weren't playing the kind of defense we needed out there and weren't hitting shots. I agree that Seth is taking too many from way outside the line. Coach K went to Thornton and he played a very energentic defensive game, and I think disrupted things that Wake ball handlers tried to do. He also handled the ball quite well. I wouldn't expect a lot of scoring from him but coach K obviously liked what he saw.

Kelly had a career game. He obviously has worked on his shot and only took open opportunities. He also played excellent defense and passed well. He has made some great strides in his game and offers the option of a big man who can score the ball. He is my MOTM.

Miles had another decent game and that is encourgaing. Mason still needs to get his offense and foul shooting going to be the all around big man we would like him to be.

Singler played his usual good game. He still is forcing the ball some and as a result gives the ball up, but no one make a stronger effort. Hairston got some minutes and did okay.

Coming out of this game, I think it is important to get Andre's to play aggressively and with confidence. He does it at times but lack consistency.


!8-1 and Syracuse and Kansas losing.

[Oriole Way]

Cuse has lost twice now so yea they deff. fall. And as for Kansas I would think thay have to fall atleast one spot.

So it could be
1 Ohio State
2 Pitt
3 Kansas
4 Duke

or

1 Ohio State
2 Pitt
3 Duke
4 Kansas

I believe Duke will definitely be ranked ahead of Kansas. I also think San Diego State has a good shot at #4.

[MB in MD]

Ryan Kelly had a perfect game. .

Whaddya mean? He missed that baseline jumper late in the second half when he got hammered. Of course he knocked down the free throws but he should have had a three point play. Really disappointing:D

Actually, I saw a game like this coming out of Ryan. He had a stretch of a few games when his shot wasn't falling, but he has been really consistent and I think poised to be a real contributor. As others have pointed out, he's also solid in all facets of the game, though he is a little overmatched guarding ball handlers out on the perimeter

Did Nolan hit any shot besides layups and free throws? I'm sure he had permission to just keep shooting, but at some point he probably should have realized it wasn't his night, either from the 1 or the 2. I recall at least once Kelly gave up a decent tho not great look and deferring to Nolan only to have Nolan brick one.

[Fuqua's Finest]

I may be in the minority, but I wish the offense would get up more quality shots for everyone especially Seth, Dre, and the the Plumlee's. Singler and Nolan shot 41 of Duke's 61 shots. Dre is obviously a rhythm shooter. Once he knocks the first couple down, he's money. Unfortunately when he only gets 4-5 shots a game it has to be frustrating. He obviously needs to work on his handle so he can penetrate more efficiently, but I'm sure Smith can find someone open instead of forcing shot after shot. This would have seemed to be a good game (weak opponent) to get everyone some shots, but that wasn't the case.

On a side note, Kelly was 6-6 which was awesome. I would've like to see him get some more shots up instead of the constant keep away game with Singler and Smith. Anyway, I'm glad we got the win but I certainly miss the balance of the NC State game.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

I believe Duke will definitely be ranked ahead of Kansas. I also think San Diego State has a good shot at #4.

Lets keep these posts on the Unbeaten thread. Sorry I know I started it.

[uh_no]

What a bizarre claim. Virginia Tech, North Carolina and Temple are all better than St. John's, perhaps considerably better.

Temple, yes, but perhaps not UNC of VT. certainly not 'considerably better'. By the Lunardi standard, temple is a 6, StJ and UNC are 8, and VT is a 12 seed in a play in game. That said, VT has had a couple quality losses, and the win against maryland shows something, temple is hit or miss.

Either way, if the best team we have yet to play is a 6 seed, and we have a whopping 0 ranked teams left on a schedule, I can hardly call the remainder of our schedule a juggernaut. As someone pointed out, we'll perhaps finish the season with 0 games against ranked teams. THis doesn't worry me at all. as in the tournament we'll see those ranked teams soon enough.

[ncexnyc]

I'm not sure what you're asking. I said we wouldn't have another good opponent. Obviously no one is 'worthy' of giving us a challenge, we are duke afterall. St. Johns is the closest we'll get to a decent opponent, and then there's UNC. But we seemed to do okay last year with the ACC not being super strong, so I'm not too worried.
I know what you said and I'm taking exception to it. I think we've got plenty of tough games left ahead of us, but that's just my opinion.

[nmduke2001]

Andre only played the first two plays of the 2nd half where he lost Gary Clark (?) for a 3 and then shot an airball. He was just off and sat the rest of the way.

I went back to rewatch that sequence since I was wondering what Andre did that kept him out the rest of the game. He switched off of Clark on the inbound and Ryan left Clark open for the three. I would imagine that they were instructed not switch off of him. Tyler was already at the scorer's table to check in before Dre missed his three attempt. Andre then compounded the mistake by yelling something towards the coaches before sitting down. I would guess that Coach did not appreciate that. Sort of a shame, Dre is my favorite player to watch. I hope he didn't put himself too far into the dog house.

[timmy c]

Ryan Kelly had a perfect game.

31 min 6-6 FGM/FGA 4-4 3PM/3PA 4-4 FTM/FTA 8 Boards 2 Steals 2 Assists 1 Blk 0 TO 0 PF 20 Pts.

That's Laettner-like.

Ryan was 4-4 against NC State. That makes him 10-10 in the last two games!

[hq2]

Nice to see his accuracy improve. Earlier, he seemed just a little off, like he couldn't quite find the range. Now, maybe he's got it worked out. Having him being able to hit open looks is a huge plus; makes the other team go out and guard him and opens up the middle some for the other players. Hope this is the beginning of a good run for him.

[jv001]

It's official. I will no longer listen to Len Elmore.
Did he seriously say we got tired down the stretch last year and that hurt us?

To quote Billy Madison, "Everyone in this room is now dumber for having listened to it. I award you no points, and may God have mercy on your soul."

that I have muted elmore. He just drives me nuts and his sidekick isn't much better. He's just not a Duke hater. As for the game, Kyle played hard as he always does and is tough nails. Ryan has been inching toward a game like this. He has great basketball IQ and is just a good team player. Nolan had his worse game in a while but still put up decent #s. Andre had an overall poor game. Shot was off, but worse was his defense and handle. I'm sure the coaches have worked on his dribbling, but it's not paying off just yet. All I can say is, next play and Go Duke!

[6th Man]

I may be in the minority, but I wish the offense would get up more quality shots for everyone especially Seth, Dre, and the the Plumlee's. Singler and Nolan shot 41 of Duke's 61 shots.

I have to agree with you. I think when we play poorly in stretches it comes off forced shots from Nolan and Kyle. I felt like Nolan was trying to get his 20 tonight and took some bad ones.

I do like Tyler in the game because he is definitely a pass first guy on a team full of shooters. I feel like he disrupts the other team defensively and makes solid decisions. I noticed Dre didn't get back in the game after he forced an airball at the start of the second half.

[JMarley50]

Loved our team chemistry during that little scuffle. Kyle stood up for Tyler, Seth stood up for Mason, and Nolan got everyone back to the bench - all without engaging in any sort of physical contact with Wake in a game where they were up by a lot already. That's the mark of a team with really good character - color me impressed.

I also loved Ryan Kelly's vocal leadership, directing traffic on inbounds plays and the like. I had never seen this from him before, and found this as impressive as his shooting performance. He's also an extremely intelligent player. Always in the right place, and making the right pass.

The Plumlees appear to be really "getting it" as well. They have done a much better job of boxing out on the boards (though they still don't do it as much as I'd like), and are going "straight up" on blocks and on rebounds instead of hacking or going over the back. Hopefully, they can keep up this progress.

Lastly, loved Tyler's smart play on offense and intensity on defense. My only critique is that he tends to get a little flat-footed on D occasionally, allowing the opposing point guard to blow by him. When he stays on his toes, he is one of Duke's best on-ball defenders. He is going to be a really rock-solid player throughout his career.

All in all, a very well-played game by the good guys - I love the progress that this team is making in Kyrie's absence. The team is getting much smarter, and continues to have outstanding chemistry. Our stock should be rising as far as polls go this week, due to KU's loss at home to Texas (and Syracuse's home loss to Nova) - and our level of play is rising as well. Go Devils, keep up the good work!

I was thinking the same thing about the scuffle. Its those kind of things, that bring them closer and closer together. They start trusting each other a lot more when they realize the other guys will be there and go to war with them.

I think we are clearly starting to see roles emerge. Mason appears to be embracing the Zoubs type role that he is starting to play. It makes me feel like he is really starting to mature, which is what I've been waiting on. I love watching Tyler. His ball pressure makes the other team look so uncomfortable, and when he's in, his effort seems to be contagious. I still don't feel like Dre and Seth have quite figured out their roles or how to embrace them however.

A few games ago, I was very unhappy with the teamwork and effort that was being given by some of the guys. I was also worried that this team, just wasn't going to get it. They were struggling to become a TEAM without Kyrie. But those feelings are starting to subside, and I personally feel like they have turned the corner. They just need correctly place the last few pieces of the puzzle together. IF they can do that, this team will once again be very special. But right now they still have a little ways to go. The coming out flat definitely needs to end...

[uh_no]

I know what you said and I'm taking exception to it. I think we've got plenty of tough games left ahead of us, but that's just my opinion.

I'm sure some of the Big East and Big 10 teams would love to hear about how many tough games Duke has ahead of them....There's a difference between 'tough' and games against top 25, top 10 etc opponents....duke has some of the former, but none (at most 1) agaisnt the latter

[lotusland]

that I have muted elmore. He just drives me nuts and his sidekick isn't much better. He's just not a Duke hater. As for the game, Kyle played hard as he always does and is tough nails. Ryan has been inching toward a game like this. He has great basketball IQ and is just a good team player. Nolan had his worse game in a while but still put up decent #s. Andre had an overall poor game. Shot was off, but worse was his defense and handle. I'm sure the coaches have worked on his dribbling, but it's not paying off just yet. All I can say is, next play and Go Duke!

I don't get the Len Elmore hate. I've never found him to be overtly anti-Duke. I think Bilas goes out of his way to criticize Duke in order to appear impartial but Elmore doesn't bug me in the least.

[uh_no]

that I have muted elmore.

He had one quip....something about the refs letting them play...which certainly hurts duke....

[davekay1971]

Two things that emerged during this game.

1) Kelly is continuing to develop into a very solid performer on both ends of the court. He makes smart plays, has great instincts on defense, and has an offensive skill set that's going to make him an increasingly difficult matchup problem over the rest of his career at Duke.

2) Thornton is getting more and more time at the point, and he's doing a nice job for us. He's lived up to his billing as a stellar on the ball defender, something we need in our defense. When other teams can penetrate the lane, it puts our help guys in bad positions. When we have a defensive stopper that can keep the opposing PG out of the lane, our defense is much better. Mr. Thornton: keep earning that PT at the defensive end of the court. I think that Coach K is seeing a lot of value in Tyler's defensive intensity AND in his ability to reliably handle the point, freeing up Nolan to his more natural scoring guard role. If Tyler continues to play this well, he will very likely be on court the majority of the game by the end of the season...especially if Kyrie doesn't make it back this year.

Some other observations:

The Plumlees seem to have found their role. They're doing some nice interior defense, doing a very good job on the boards, and they're giving us some inside scoring and offensive second chances by staying involved even when they're not being fed in the post. Like a lot of other people, I'd love to see some more intentional feeds into them, but I'm thrilled to see the brothers willing to contribute with boards, defense, and second chance points.

Seth may have launched some deep 3s that didn't go, but he had a nice game. Dre, unfortunately, had a bad game, but not to worry. He's a good kid, seems very coachable, and he'll come back strong.

[taiw93]

I thought Elmore's most egregious anti-Duke moment was when he tried to explain how a Wake player "could have been seen as going for the ball" when he shoved Mason in the back on a dunk attempt. Still shocked it wasn't called an intentional foul.

[lotusland]

He had one quip....something about the refs letting them play...which certainly hurts duke....

But is that and anti-Duke statement? I thought he meant that the refs were letting Wake get away with too much contact.

[BleedsP287]

It wasn't a pretty first half, but great to see Ryan get a good game in. And Tyler too.

Are there still folks out there that see Mason as a lottery pick this year? Doesn't seem likely to me. I think he'll be back next year, and another year to develop will probably do him good.

[moonpie23]

Exactly who do you feel is worthy enough to give us a late season challenge?

umm...@MD, @unc, @VA tech,

[Bob Green]

I thought Elmore's most egregious anti-Duke moment was when he tried to explain how a Wake player "could have been seen as going for the ball" when he shoved Mason in the back on a dunk attempt. Still shocked it wasn't called an intentional foul.

That wasn't Elmore being anti-Duke it was Elmore attempting to explain to the TV audience what the refs rationale might have been. I don't find Elmore anti-Duke.

[Bob Green]

What a bizarre claim. Virginia Tech, North Carolina and Temple are all better than St. John's, perhaps considerably better.

Not according to RPI. St. John's is #15 and our toughest remaining opponent. Of course these rankings fluctuate so things could change.

[lotusland]

I thought Elmore's most egregious anti-Duke moment was when he tried to explain how a Wake player "could have been seen as going for the ball" when he shoved Mason in the back on a dunk attempt. Still shocked it wasn't called an intentional foul.

That was just pointing out how the ref may have seen it. Obviously the official did think there was a play on the ball since he didn't call intentional so it's not anti-Duke to speculate why he made the call that he did. He pretty much acknowledged that it was a weak argument but the only thing he could come up with.

[Duvall]

Not according to RPI. St. John's is #15 and our toughest remaining opponent. Of course these rankings fluctuate so things could change.

The RPI is a horrible, horrible power rating. It really is useless.

[jv001]

but I will continue to mute elmore. Never have liked him in the booth and never will. To each their own. Go Duke!

[Bob Green]

The RPI is a horrible, horrible power rating. It really is useless.

But it is out there and used by the selection committee so no matter how terrible we think it is it cannot be ignored. Personally, I prefer the Pomeroy rankings, which agree with your original post: VT, UNC and Temple are better than St. John's.

[camion]

Not according to RPI. St. John's is #15 and our toughest remaining opponent. Of course these rankings fluctuate so things could change.

But the RPI does not rank teams according to their strength. Kenpom and Sagarin do.

Kenpom rankings:

Va Tech - 17
Maryland - 18
UNC - 25
Fla St. - 42
Clemson - 43
St Johns - 53

[CDu]

First and foremost, great game for Kelly. What a rarity to see a guy commit no fouls, no turnovers, miss no shots, and go for 20 and 6 all in the same game. He's now put together back-to-back impact games. I'm hopeful that the game is slowing down for him and that he's starting to come into his own.

Great to see a solid bounceback game from Singler. 24 points, 7 rebounds, 4 assists, 2 steals, and only 1 turnover. That's terrific.

It was a very rough night for Smith. He got 19 points, but it took him 22 shots to get there. And he had as many turnovers as assists. Thankfully, the rough game came against a clearly inferior opponent, and Singler and Kelly buoyed him with 20+ point efforts.

Dawkins is in a bit of a shooting slump right now. He's 5-23 from 3pt range in his last 4 games. It's really incredible in looking back at his first 15 games that he had basically no bad shooting nights. Two of his last four games have been okay shooting nights (4-11 in those two games), but the other two were terrible (1-12). Hopefully he gets it going again as the season progresses. He's such a good weapon to have.

Interesting that Thornton got more minutes than either Curry or Dawkins. I'm assuming that this due to the fact that he's a better ballhandler than Curry and Dawkins and because both Curry and Dawkins have struggled a bit with their shooting over the last four games (Curry is 2-14 from 3pt range in his last 4 games). I hope he keeps progressing, because I think it will be important to have a second ballhandler as the season progresses. It's just asking too much of Smith to carry all of the ballhandling responsibilities on offense, especially when the quality of opponents increases as we progress in the NCAA tournament.

Despite his shooting struggles, Curry definitely has a knack for the ball. He got two steals and poked the ball loose a couple of other times though no turnover occurred. I'm hopeful that he finds his shot as well. We're a juggernaut offense when Smith, Singler, Curry, and Dawkins are all shooting at least fairly well.

Mason had another 10 rebound game. That's four in a row now, and he's averaging 10.6 boards per game since ACC play started. For all the grief he's getting for his lack of scoring, he's not slacking on the boards (especially the defensive boards). He's not quite at Zoubek's rebounding rate on the offensive end, but he's still putting up really strong numbers on the glass.

One point of concern overall is the 3pt shooting. We've now had 5 straight games of mediocre/poor 3pt shooting (35%, 30%, 25%, 31%, and 29% in those games). For team that takes as many perimeter shots as we do, we'll need to pick that up. I see no reason to assume that the struggles will continue (we're still getting good looks), but it's something to watch.

All in all, it was another relatively easy win after a rough first 8 minutes. Wake came out firing to get an 18-13 lead. But after that, we took over and outscored them 70-41. Wake is really bad, so a 24-point win isn't exactly newsworthy. But it's nice to keep winning comfortably, even when the shooting isn't at top notch.

[watzone]

http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/01/the-blue-devils-ryan-kelly-strives-for-perfection/ Kelly has been near perfect in the last two games - Singler and K praised his play - http://bluedevilnation.net/2011/01/the-blue-devils-ryan-kelly-strives-for-perfection/

[Bob Green]

But the RPI does not rank teams according to their strength. Kenpom and Sagarin do.

Kenpom rankings:

Va Tech - 17
Maryland - 18
UNC - 25
Fla St. - 42
Clemson - 43
St Johns - 53

So what do these rankings (http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_Men.html) mean?

Duke - 7
St. John's - 15
North Carolina - 22
Temple - 38
Virginia Tech - 67

[CDu]

So what do these rankings (http://realtimerpi.com/rpi_Men.html) mean?

Duke - 7
St. John's - 15
North Carolina - 22
Temple - 38
Virginia Tech - 67

I think what camion was saying is that the formula for the RPI doesn't really take into account the quality of the team. They simply consider winning %, opponents' winning %, and opponents' opponents' winning %. It's a measure, but it's a pretty mediocre measure of a team's strength. Pomeroy and Sagarin both do a much better job measuring a team's strengths.

To clarify - if your question was what does the SOS in the RPI mean, it's simply a measure of the opponents' record and the opponents' opponents' record. No consideration of margin of victory.

Also, they use a debatable adjustment for home/road victories, highly devaluing home wins and perhaps overvaluing road wins.

[camion]

I think what camion was saying is that the formula for the RPI doesn't really take into account the quality of the team. They simply consider winning %, opponents' winning %, and opponents' opponents' winning %, with most of the weight on winning %. It's a measure, but it's a pretty mediocre measure of a team's strength. Pomeroy and Sagarin both do a much better job measuring a team's strengths.

That's pretty much it. The RPI is a tool to coerce ("encourage" is the nice term) teams to play a reasonably tough schedule and not load up on cupcakes. That's why its formula relies heavily on opponents and opponents' opponents.

[weezie]

He pretty much acknowledged that it was a weak argument but the only thing he could come up with.

Yet Mumblymouth Lennie never can come up with saying nothing, can he? always has to bleat some anti-Duke blather. One note wonder, our Leonard, he is.

[CDu]

That's pretty much it. The RPI is a tool to coerce ("encourage" is the nice term) teams to play a reasonably tough schedule and not load up on cupcakes. That's why its formula relies heavily on opponents and opponents' opponents.

That was the idea. However, they've made some questionable adjustments which have created some potentially perverse. They now also give weights to location. They give home wins a weight of 0.6 (home loss = 1.4 loss) and road wins a weight of 1.4 (road loss = 0.6 loss). So there's some value in playing (and beating) poor teams on the road, while the penalty for losing on the road is greatly reduced.

And given that there's no consideration of the margin of victory, it's just not a very good measure. And I think perhaps people are slowly realizing it (hence more acknowledgement of Pomeroy and Sagarin recently).

[BD80]

... Seth may have launched some deep 3s that didn't go, but he had a nice game. ...

I am rooting for Seth, but didn't see that he had a "nice" game today. Tyler's minutes would tend to indicate that Seth didn't have a nice game. What did Seth do that would give you a positive impression of his play? I will NOT counter with negatives, I am just looking for positives.

In my mind, Tyler is getting minutes for staying in front of the ball-handler and for refusing to turn the ball over.

One thing I would like to see our guys do is to feed the post on the break when an MP beats opposing bigs down the floor rather than pull up for the open 3, even though we have the rebounding advantage. The big guys deserve the ball for hustling down the floor.

[WVDUKEFAN]

St. Johns will be a great game and a great test. I don't personally care for Steve Lavin, but I think he will have St. Johns back as a consistent top 10 team in five years. He knows how to recruit, he plays up tempo basketball and he can coach. UCLA just wasn't the place for him.

[CDu]

I am rooting for Seth, but didn't see that he had a "nice" game today. Tyler's minutes would tend to indicate that Seth didn't have a nice game. What did Seth do that would give you a positive impression of his play? I will NOT counter with negatives, I am just looking for positives.

In my mind, Tyler is getting minutes for staying in front of the ball-handler and for refusing to turn the ball over.

Curry did have a couple of steals. But beyond that, I agree with your point. He had a pretty nondescript performance. I'm still hopeful that he'll get it going as the season progresses. We've seen some flashes of what he's capable of, but we just haven't seen them consistently enough.


One thing I would like to see our guys do is to feed the post on the break when an MP beats opposing bigs down the floor rather than pull up for the open 3, even though we have the rebounding advantage. The big guys deserve the ball for hustling down the floor.

I generally agree about this (always good to reward the bigs for hustle), but I don't know that we've had a ton of chances in which the bigs are clearly in an advantageous position on the break. The guys handling the ball aren't exactly the most comfortable passers in transition. Our guards do a lot of things well, but passing in transition and feeding the post aren't their strengths. Also, our bigs (especially the Plumlees) don't have the best hands in the world and aren't great free throw shooters. If the guards can finish or draw the foul, that's a higher percentage play unless it's a clear path (and clear pass) to the big.

But it would definitely be nice if we could get some more easy opportunities for the bigs. Miles was the recipient of one or two of those tonight in the half court, but generally speaking those are too few and far between.

[superdave]

I think what camion was saying is that the formula for the RPI doesn't really take into account the quality of the team. They simply consider winning %, opponents' winning %, and opponents' opponents' winning %. It's a measure, but it's a pretty mediocre measure of a team's strength. Pomeroy and Sagarin both do a much better job measuring a team's strengths.

To clarify - if your question was what does the SOS in the RPI mean, it's simply a measure of the opponents' record and the opponents' opponents' record. No consideration of margin of victory.

Also, they use a debatable adjustment for home/road victories, highly devaluing home wins and perhaps overvaluing road wins.

Maybe we should contact the selection committee since they use RPI and explain this to them...

Or would that be futile?

[davekay1971]

I am rooting for Seth, but didn't see that he had a "nice" game today. Tyler's minutes would tend to indicate that Seth didn't have a nice game. What did Seth do that would give you a positive impression of his play? I will NOT counter with negatives, I am just looking for positives. .

Seth's defense was generally good throughout the game and he did some positive things on offense (shooting was poor, but 2 nice assists and 0 turnovers). As for minutes, Seth had 21 to Tyler's 22, so both got some good time on the floor. As Tyler grows as a PG option, Seth's minutes will be more divided between the 1 and 2 positions, moving Seth more back to a scoring guard role, where I think he is more comfortable.

[DukeGirl4ever]

One more Elmore comment and then I'm done. I don't think he is anti-Duke...I just think some of the things he says are so off-base in every game he does.

The running out of gas comment and the "glad to see Wake fight" comment were really pathetic IMO.

While I can understand his thought process for Wake showing some emotion in the little scuffle, that is not something you say as an announcer on national television.

[Troublemaker]

It's only been two games, and I don't want to jinx it, but the emergence of Ryan Kelly's scoring ability is worth keeping an eye on. Obviously Duke becomes a much more formidable team if Kelly can continue to be the much-needed third scorer, and I'm excited for the next few games to see if he can keep it up. Out of the seven role players on this team, Kelly has been the most likely candidate to step into the role of the third scorer because of pedigree (he was a prolific scorer in high school unlike, for example, Miles and Mason, who provide other valuable skills) and because Ryan doesn't overlap positionally with our top two scorers in Nolan and Kyle.

Hopefully Ryan's performance is not a fluke and we are witnessing a natural scorer finally blossoming due to increased confidence and comfort with his stronger body and familiarity with the college game. It would make such a huge difference for this team. Having a "stretch 4" allows more space for Nolan's drives and Kyle's curls into the lane. The additional space also reduces turnovers that occur in a crowd of defenders. A third scorer also allows a defensive weapon like Tyler Thornton to play more since Duke wouldn't be playing "2 on 5" offensively when he's in there; the offense doesn't have to totally bog down. And if Tyler plays more, he gives the opposing point guard fits, and Nolan is fresher at the end of games due to not guarding the ball in addition to running the offense. There are just potentially many positive cascading effects.

It's only been two games. But it's something to track.

[CDu]

Maybe we should contact the selection committee since they use RPI and explain this to them...

Or would that be futile?

I'd be surprised if it hasn't been brought to their attention before. And I do think that Pomeroy and Sagarin are gaining traction. Perhaps they'll eventually overtake the RPI. But progress tends to be slow. The RPI has been around for 30 years and was (I believe) developed by the NCAA. Conversely, I believe Pomeroy and Sagarin are both less than a decade old.

[Saratoga2]

Seth's defense was generally good throughout the game and he did some positive things on offense (shooting was poor, but 2 nice assists and 0 turnovers). As for minutes, Seth had 21 to Tyler's 22, so both got some good time on the floor. As Tyler grows as a PG option, Seth's minutes will be more divided between the 1 and 2 positions, moving Seth more back to a scoring guard role, where I think he is more comfortable.

Seth came in following Tyler playing aggressive defense in the second half. Immediately, it seemed, Wake started to get penetration as Seth played futher off. I just haven't seen his defense as particulaly effective during the last several games. One positive is that he has quick hands and does get steals at times. Without Seth showing more on offense, I prefer Tyler and his defense.

[MChambers]

I'd be surprised if it hasn't been brought to their attention before. And I do think that Pomeroy and Sagarin are gaining traction. Perhaps they'll eventually overtake the RPI. But progress tends to be slow. The RPI has been around for 30 years and was (I believe) developed by the NCAA. Conversely, I believe Pomeroy and Sagarin are both less than a decade old.

I think Sagarin's been around longer than you think, probably about 20 years. I remember when I could only see the Sagarin ratings by looking in the Tuesday edition of USA today, pre-Internet. I agree with you otherwise, but my understanding is that the selection committee does look at Sagarin and Pomeroy.

[CDu]

As Tyler grows as a PG option, Seth's minutes will be more divided between the 1 and 2 positions, moving Seth more back to a scoring guard role, where I think he is more comfortable.

I agree that Curry is more comfortable playing the 2. And I think the role transition has already happened. Since the Maryland game, Curry has played almost exclusively at the 2. Smith has played nearly all of the PG minutes, with Thornton handling the duties whenever Smith was out (which has been very rare) or needed a break from the responsibility.

At this point, Smith is probably playing 37+ mpg at PG with Thornton getting the rest. Dawkins, Curry, and Thornton and Smith (very rarely) are getting the minutes at SG spot, and Dawkins is getting some minutes at the 3 as well.

[ncexnyc]

umm...@MD, @unc, @VA tech,

That was exactly my thinking. The post I responded to didn't sit well with me. I'm not a stats guy as it's way to easy to pull stats together that suit just about any argument you want to make. The games are played on the court and too many folks around here look at stats and think so and so game is going to be easy. Well it doesn't work like that in real life. I can look at our remaining 12 games and think up reasons why we might actually lose or be in for a dogfight. I think most of us should be aware that rankings mean nothing. Once they see DUKE across the front of that jersey we get the opposition's A game.

[jipops]

It's only a one game sample size but I wonder if there could be some concern creeping up of Nolan being fatigued. The guy pretty much has to do everything and he is really the only option available as a primary ball-handler. Thornton provides a little help and has done an excellent job while he is out there but he's really not at a level right now offensively to fill a primary ball-handling type role in ACC games. It wasn't just that Nolan didn't shoot well but there were more than a few times today where his defense looked below the norm for him. Fortunately the guys have 5 days rest before the next game which is at home, but after that the slate of games is a pretty tough stretch with only 3 days in between.

I do feel like a lot of the reason Tyler was in there for 22 minutes was to take Nolan off of defending Wake's primary ball-handler and just to get a feel with what Tyler can do with that amount of time on the floor. It is going to be very interesting to watch how Nolan holds up with the most difficult stretch of the season coming up.

[hustleplays]

I may be in the minority, but I wish the offense would get up more quality shots for everyone especially Seth, Dre, and the the Plumlee's. Singler and Nolan shot 41 of Duke's 61 shots. Dre is obviously a rhythm shooter. Once he knocks the first couple down, he's money. Unfortunately when he only gets 4-5 shots a game it has to be frustrating. He obviously needs to work on his handle so he can penetrate more efficiently, but I'm sure Smith can find someone open instead of forcing shot after shot. This would have seemed to be a good game (weak opponent) to get everyone some shots, but that wasn't the case.

On a side note, Kelly was 6-6 which was awesome. I would've like to see him get some more shots up instead of the constant keep away game with Singler and Smith. Anyway, I'm glad we got the win but I certainly miss the balance of the NC State game.

Andre and Seth are two of our best long-range shooters. We know that, for now, they aren't our best at creating shots. I wish we would set more screens for them, so that they would have more time and opportunities. I remember many games in which JJ would start out slowly. Kyle often starts very slowly from long range, then sometimes he gets hot. It's hard not to conjecture that Andre and Seth do feel added pressure because of pressure to make their shots early.

[dukelifer]

It's only a one game sample size but I wonder if there could be some concern creeping up of Nolan being fatigued. The guy pretty much has to do everything and he is really the only option available as a primary ball-handler. Thornton provides a little help and has done an excellent job while he is out there but he's really not at a level right now offensively to fill a primary ball-handling type role in ACC games. It wasn't just that Nolan didn't shoot well but there were more than a few times today where his defense looked below the norm for him. Fortunately the guys have 5 days rest before the next game which is at home, but after that the slate of games is a pretty tough stretch with only 3 days in between.

I do feel like a lot of the reason Tyler was in there for 22 minutes was to take Nolan off of defending Wake's primary ball-handler and just to get a feel with what Tyler can do with that amount of time on the floor. It is going to be very interesting to watch how Nolan holds up with the most difficult stretch of the season coming up.

I am not all that convinced that Nolan is 100%- not from playing too many minutes- but banged up from last game or practice. He did not look like he was moving as well today until later in the game. But he will get a few more days to recover.

Thornton helps this team by playing tough D and the coaching staff is trusting him more against the younger guards in the league. Duke's D is not great- it is solid- but not great and Tyler does not make it great but he makes the other team rush more and that leads to turnovers. Mason Plumlee is beginning to get the idea that his role right now is to get bounds and block shots. If he can get more offensive rebounds- then Duke will get more chances. The game is still too fast for him at times but he is getting there. Just needs to keep it simple for a while.

Kelly is improving much faster than Mason and today we saw what he can do. His shot is noticeably less flat from deep and he seems to be in the right place on the floor. He is a very smart player and that is a huge help. Having a big hitting threes consistently reminds one of Laettner. He is not Laettner- but he he is going to be very good and a weapon.

Duke has a lot of very good players- several capable of very big nights. The loss of Irving has not been solved yet as the competition has not been elite- but the team is developing game by game. I rather them peak later- even if it means some frustrating moments.

[94duke]

For those who thought Miles was thinking too much, here is what Coach K said in the post-game:


When he (Miles) talks, he's just better because then he's reacting. He's such a good athlete that if he's thinking about what he's supposed to do, instead of talking and reacting, he loses that athleticism.

(scroll down)
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205081254

[TampaDuke]

I went back to rewatch that sequence since I was wondering what Andre did that kept him out the rest of the game. He switched off of Clark on the inbound and Ryan left Clark open for the three. I would imagine that they were instructed not switch off of him. Tyler was already at the scorer's table to check in before Dre missed his three attempt. Andre then compounded the mistake by yelling something towards the coaches before sitting down. I would guess that Coach did not appreciate that. Sort of a shame, Dre is my favorite player to watch. I hope he didn't put himself too far into the dog house.

In the last few games, I've noticed Andre has been showing more frustration on the court. Not sure what the cause is, except possibly the shooting slump, but I'm hoping he has a big game soon to get him back on track.

[BlueDster]

It's only a one game sample size but I wonder if there could be some concern creeping up of Nolan being fatigued. The guy pretty much has to do everything and he is really the only option available as a primary ball-handler. Thornton provides a little help and has done an excellent job while he is out there but he's really not at a level right now offensively to fill a primary ball-handling type role in ACC games. It wasn't just that Nolan didn't shoot well but there were more than a few times today where his defense looked below the norm for him. Fortunately the guys have 5 days rest before the next game which is at home, but after that the slate of games is a pretty tough stretch with only 3 days in between.

I do feel like a lot of the reason Tyler was in there for 22 minutes was to take Nolan off of defending Wake's primary ball-handler and just to get a feel with what Tyler can do with that amount of time on the floor. It is going to be very interesting to watch how Nolan holds up with the most difficult stretch of the season coming up.

I think you raise an interesting point, but I did notice that many of Nolan's shots today were too strong, especially his mid-range jumpers. Typically with fatigue, you expect a player's shots to be short. Of course, strong shots don't mean that a player is NOT fatigued, but I just think Nolan forced it a little in today's game.

[CampbellBlueDevil]

Does anyone else think that Thornton might be getting increased playing time because Coach K anticipates Irving will be back in the line up before the season is over? It would make sense to keep the offense similar to what it had been with Nolan not playing point but instead being the 2 guard. I may be reading too far into and I know there are other factors leading to TT playing time, such as his defense, but I hope this is the case!

[SMO]

Does anyone else think that Thornton might be getting increased playing time because Coach K anticipates Irving will be back in the line up before the season is over? It would make sense to keep the offense similar to what it had been with Nolan not playing point but instead being the 2 guard. I may be reading too far into and I know there are other factors leading to TT playing time, such as his defense, but I hope this is the case!

I think it's easier to make the opposite case (TT is playing more because he will be relied upon to a greater extent). He's also playing pretty well, which helps.

[devildeac]

umm...@MD, @unc, @VA tech,

Add @st john's to that list, too.

[4decadedukie]

Add @st john's to that list, too.

I would even add UNC at Cameron . . . it won't be a gimme.

[Saratoga2]

I think it's easier to make the opposite case (TT is playing more because he will be relied upon to a greater extent). He's also playing pretty well, which helps.

Maybe it is because he is playing better than the alternative players right now.

[Utley]

I know we won by 24, but this game was a step backward for me. We need to play great defense and did anything but. We are in for a big disappointment if the team doesn't come to appreciate that more than they do now.

This program has one of the best killer instincts in college hoops - this is a game we typically jump out by 25 in the first half and increase that during the second half. Letting this Wake team hang around was really disappointing.

I am also starting to think that this team is just not as good shooting as I thought/hoped.

While there was more bad than good, I do love seeing Ryan grow as a scorer and leader.

[stillcrazie]

Nolan bruised his knee in the NC State game. I wonder if it was bothering him a bit yesterday.

[BD80]

For those who thought Miles was thinking too much, here is what Coach K said in the post-game:

"When he (Miles) talks, he's just better because then he's reacting. He's such a good athlete that if he's thinking about what he's supposed to do, instead of talking and reacting, he loses that athleticism."


(scroll down)
http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205081254

So Coach K says thinking is a bad thing? ol' roy will be p!$$ed. That's HIS approach to coaching!

[moonpie23]

While there was more bad than good,

i disagree.....this was a case of wake actually doing stuff that they've been TRYING to do but just haven't....they actually hit their shots.

what did we think? that wake would not get any shots at all off? or that we would block them all?

our defense didn't stop every attempt and they got some shots to go down....i don't see how a 24 pt win can be more bad than good...

[HaveFunExpectToWin]

I went back to rewatch that sequence since I was wondering what Andre did that kept him out the rest of the game. He switched off of Clark on the inbound and Ryan left Clark open for the three. I would imagine that they were instructed not switch off of him. Tyler was already at the scorer's table to check in before Dre missed his three attempt. Andre then compounded the mistake by yelling something towards the coaches before sitting down. I would guess that Coach did not appreciate that. Sort of a shame, Dre is my favorite player to watch. I hope he didn't put himself too far into the dog house.

Yes, I'd agree that it was b/c of the missed assignment on that screen. The poor reaction on the bench is ,ost likely what made him sit out the rest of the game however. This is the second game in a row that Andre has gotten significant bench time in the 2nd half. I really hope he can get it together, we need him focused and effective.

BTW, both announcers missed that he was benched, and that TT didn't start the 2nd half. I thought that was rather odd.

[Kedsy]

I'd be surprised if it hasn't been brought to their attention before. And I do think that Pomeroy and Sagarin are gaining traction. Perhaps they'll eventually overtake the RPI. But progress tends to be slow. The RPI has been around for 30 years and was (I believe) developed by the NCAA. Conversely, I believe Pomeroy and Sagarin are both less than a decade old.

Sagarin's ratings are 20+ years old. I remember looking at them in the late 1980s.

[Kedsy]

I think you raise an interesting point, but I did notice that many of Nolan's shots today were too strong, especially his mid-range jumpers. Typically with fatigue, you expect a player's shots to be short. Of course, strong shots don't mean that a player is NOT fatigued, but I just think Nolan forced it a little in today's game.

I didn't think Nolan looked tired. I did think his shooting form was awful (compared to what we're accustomed to seeing from him). His legs were all over the place when he went up (which I think caused many shots to be off-line) and he leaned his torso forward as he shot the ball (which in my opinion was causing the shots to miss long). His passing wasn't as good as it has been, either, and he took several contested shots when he may have been better served to pass the ball back out and re-start the offense. I'm willing to chalk it up as an off-game and hope he spends some practice time regaining his form.

On the other hand, how cool is it that the above paragraphs is describing a 19-4-3 game? Wake couldn't stop him when he drove to the hoop. Nolan is a true college star.

Also, I thought his defense was quite strong, so he didn't let his offensive performance affect the other side of the ball.

[AtlDuke72]

I may be in the minority, but I wish the offense would get up more quality shots for everyone especially Seth, Dre, and the the Plumlee's. Singler and Nolan shot 41 of Duke's 61 shots.


I do not agree with you. The other guys get good shots because the other team has to concentrate so hard on Nolan and Kyle. When the plays go through the other guys the outcome is generally bad, particularly when the big guys get the ball down low and try to do something with it. All of Kelly's shots were relatively open because he gets his spot and waits for the ball as the defense reacts to the play . The team, other than Kelly, shot 5 for 14. I don't think there will be much change in how the offense is run.

[wilko]

It may be just me..
But what the FSU game exposed, other teams are taking to heart and trying to duplicate. FSU bumped and banged the Duke guards off the ball. The physicality of the style of play put our guys in position to make poor decisions and reactions.

Seth had some bad passes. Nolan had some equally bad ones and tried to force too much as evidenced by clanging a shot off under the rim. Dawkins was bothered by it as well. I'm not putting the loss on those guys or those specific plays.... but if the team reacts better and get shots in the flow of normal offense instead of bad execution, I like our chances better.

WF just tried to replicate that style. I think teams are going to try that Bully tactic and see if we are weak and continue to make the same bad decisions when placed in those situations. How the staff responds and how the players execute against it will determine how well that stratagem pays off.

I think a active productive RK like yesterday opens up the lane creating more chances for the MP's. He wont make em all every nite but hes forcing a D to HAVE to react and come to him. (Kudos RK!) So some baseline opportunities should come from that for someone.

I like TT. hes solid out there. Not spectacular (yet) but solid and consistent play. He hasn't made any key mistakes at critical times that put us in a tough spot, that I can recall. He'll be able to diffuse some of pounding.

JH - I like his nose for the ball. He must be bio-engineered to exhibit some type of magnetic force over the ball. Every-time I seemingly notice him in the game... it seems shortly thereafter hes getting a rebound, taking a foul shout, or finding a way to contribute. Glad to see hes getting some burn.

Hopefully by guys growing into their roles and executing well this can be handled better ...and no one else gets hurt and we keep winning more games than we lose..

[uh_no]

But is that and anti-Duke statement? I thought he meant that the refs were letting Wake get away with too much contact.

perhaps.....It seemed to be said with a snide sort of inflection....I took away that his thought process was...duke always gets all the calls, so if the refs aren't calling as much, it must hurt duke, and their ability to flop for sure

[Utley]

i disagree.....this was a case of wake actually doing stuff that they've been TRYING to do but just haven't....they actually hit their shots.

what did we think? that wake would not get any shots at all off? or that we would block them all?

our defense didn't stop every attempt and they got some shots to go down....i don't see how a 24 pt win can be more bad than good...

I totally appreciate that this comment is one that not everyone would agree with me on given the size of the win. My comments were referring to the quality of the looks they were getting. Wake actually missed a number of chippies that would have made the game dangerously close probably 30 minutes into it.

Our D just seemed to take a step back on this one. It wasn't great against State but it was progressing.

[Ultrarunner]

I totally appreciate that this comment is one that not everyone would agree with me on given the size of the win. My comments were referring to the quality of the looks they were getting. Wake actually missed a number of chippies that would have made the game dangerously close probably 30 minutes into it.

Our D just seemed to take a step back on this one. It wasn't great against State but it was progressing.

This seems to be a recurring theme this year. "Yes, we're winning but the other team missed a lot...." Lately, it's been chippies filling in the blank. Early in the season, it was open threes. There seems to be a contigent on the board that focuses on these as omens of misfortune and project the "deficiency" as a season-ender when we meet with decent teams in the NCAA's.

A lot of teams used to miss chippies when Patrick Ewing was at Georgetown. If you have shotblockers, the opposing team has to consider that and that very often messes up the rhythm of the shot. We may also be playing tighter defense on the perimeter to force the ball into less accomplished scorers or force shooters to make shots in motion with 6'10" jumping jacks all around them.

Those "missed" chippies may be the result of good defense, not good luck. It might be nice to give our kids some credit for playing some pretty good post defense. Compared to the beginning of the season, they have improved quite a bit and show signs of becoming really good whether it's Miles and Ryan with positioning, Mason and Kelly with blocks and all of them are starting to rebound well.



I know we won by 24, but this game was a step backward for me. We need to play great defense and did anything but. We are in for a big disappointment if the team doesn't come to appreciate that more than they do now.

We're currently ranked as a top ten defense (#6 in Pomeroy). How much better do you think they need to be?

And I won't be disappointed in this team as long as they leave everything on the court. One of the nice things about being a Duke fan is that with that as a standard, I am rarely disappointed.

[Troublemaker]

Does anyone else think that Thornton might be getting increased playing time because Coach K anticipates Irving will be back in the line up before the season is over? It would make sense to keep the offense similar to what it had been with Nolan not playing point but instead being the 2 guard. I may be reading too far into and I know there are other factors leading to TT playing time, such as his defense, but I hope this is the case!

Nah, I don't think so. Nolan still directs the offense most of the time when Thornton is in the game with him. Plus, the coaching staff has been extremely adamant about the team's need to move on under the assumption that Kyrie won't return, so I don't think they're making any coaching decisions based on him coming back.

[Troublemaker]

I know we won by 24, but this game was a step backward for me. We need to play great defense and did anything but. We are in for a big disappointment if the team doesn't come to appreciate that more than they do now.

This program has one of the best killer instincts in college hoops - this is a game we typically jump out by 25 in the first half and increase that during the second half. Letting this Wake team hang around was really disappointing.

I am also starting to think that this team is just not as good shooting as I thought/hoped.


The defense held Wake to only 0.85 points per possession, which is very good. I know Duke didn't limit them to 39 points like Georgia Tech did, but we shouldn't expect Duke to duplicate a fluky performance. Wake was historically bad against GT and they're not going to have another game like that again. I'd say when you hold a team to 59 points and 0.85 ppp, you did okay on defense.

As for "killer instinct' and letting Wake hang around, Duke actually covered the point spread in this game. It really wasn't too shabby a performance, at least according to the free market.

[Utley]

This seems to be a recurring theme this year. "Yes, we're winning but the other team missed a lot...." Lately, it's been chippies filling in the blank. Early in the season, it was open threes. There seems to be a contigent on the board that focuses on these as omens of misfortune and project the "deficiency" as a season-ender when we meet with decent teams in the NCAA's.

A lot of teams used to miss chippies when Patrick Ewing was at Georgetown. If you have shotblockers, the opposing team has to consider that and that very often messes up the rhythm of the shot. We may also be playing tighter defense on the perimeter to force the ball into less accomplished scorers or force shooters to make shots in motion with 6'10" jumping jacks all around them.

Those "missed" chippies may be the result of good defense, not good luck. It might be nice to give our kids some credit for playing some pretty good post defense. Compared to the beginning of the season, they have improved quite a bit and show signs of becoming really good whether it's Miles and Ryan with positioning, Mason and Kelly with blocks and all of them are starting to rebound well.




We're currently ranked as a top ten defense (#6 in Pomeroy). How much better do you think they need to be?

And I won't be disappointed in this team as long as they leave everything on the court. One of the nice things about being a Duke fan is that with that as a standard, I am rarely disappointed.

I appreciate the replies and the data from the two replies to my message has me re-thinking my view. I sure don't think of myself as part of a negative contingent here - I love this team and have grand aspirations for them. I continue to believe that we will go as far as our D will take us, and really try to put a laser focus on it. I am a big believer in stats so perhaps I am being to hard on the boys - my sense was that Wake was getting easier looks than I would have expected.

[SMO]

Those "missed" chippies may be the result of good defense, not good luck. It might be nice to give our kids some credit for playing some pretty good post defense. Compared to the beginning of the season, they have improved quite a bit and show signs of becoming really good whether it's Miles and Ryan with positioning, Mason and Kelly with blocks and all of them are starting to rebound well.

Hear hear! Anyone notice how many shots Mason is altering at the rim?

[moonpie23]

Hear hear! Anyone notice how many shots Mason is altering at the rim?

has he been watching zoubs film?

[94duke]

has he been watching zoubs film?

We can hope! :)

[Ultrarunner]

has he been watching zoubs film?

A while back, I called it the "Zoubek Effect" but I was applying to Miles. In Miles case, it also referenced his penchant for getting called for a foul before he even left the bench.

Kelly seems to be studying Laettner film though. :D