Malcolm Delaney: Maryland 'might have the worst fans ever'

[GODUKEGO]

Hard to believe that I am agreeing 100% with a Hokie.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/01/malcolm-delaney-maryland-worst-fans-ever-virginia-tech-/1

[Lord Ash]

Yeah, the Terp fans can be a really immature, classless, and stupid bunch. Many of them are very proud of that too.

[alteran]

Hard to believe that I am agreeing 100% with a Hokie.

http://content.usatoday.com/communities/campusrivalry/post/2011/01/malcolm-delaney-maryland-worst-fans-ever-virginia-tech-/1

Funny, but a real pot-meet-kettle moment.

[DevilHorns]

Every fan-base has it's classless idiots, but MD takes it to another level. Because their brutish behavior is tolerated at home, the atmosphere envelops the normally less vitrol fans and unites them to stupidity. The end result is disgusting.

Sad part is, I live in MD, and know plenty of people that are MD fans. Most (if not all the ones I personally know) are completely a 'normal' breed of fan. They don't ever get out of hand and hate the reputation that their undergraduate base creates.

[wsb3]

They have many shameful incidents. Nolan on the floor stretched out and they are cheering. First of all I would like to think that would never happen in Cameron but if it did I think Coach K would have shut it down quickly. I can't say I recall Gary doing anything.

One of the coolest things I have ever seen in a game at Cameron was a few seasons ago Coach K was about to squat down and talk to his team during a timeout. Watching on TV you could not hear what was being chanted but all of a sudden he was back up and standing in front of a section of students with an obvious, "Don't do that." And it stopped immediately. The respect for him is awesome.

That brings to mind another very classy moment from Coach. Phil Ford had received a DWI before the Duke-UNC game and they showed Coach K going around to the sections of students before the game and the message was as it should be. The incident was not to be mentioned.

[Lord Ash]

They have many shameful incidents. Nolan on the floor stretched out and they are cheering. First of all I would like to think that would never happen in Cameron but if it did I think Coach K would have shut it down quickly.

No no no, it isn't even a question; that would NEVER HAPPEN AT CAMERON.

EVER.

Listen, go on over to the Terp forums and look for the "Thug and proud of it!" stuff. It is everywhere... they even had emoticons for it. Some of them are an interesting mix of bitter and angry and delusional. There are many Terp fans who do NOT endorse that behavior, but too many that do.

[nyr484]

You are right that Coach K does not put up with chants from the Crazies that he perceives to be inappropriate. I remember a "Fire Jarvis" chant started up when we were playing St. Johns at Cameron in Spring 2003. Coach K got an angry look on his face and started waving his arms and shaking his head at the Crazies. The chant ended pretty quickly.

[buddy]

Someone (player or parent) will be hurt at the Comcast Center. Badly. Unfortunate that it will take a serious injury at the hands of a fan or fans to change the climate (maybe). With luck, it will happen on national television so that the pure rottenness of the crowd can be displayed for all. I for one will not accept the excuses of Gary Williams or the Maryland administration.

[sleepybear]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/hokies-journal/2011/01/malcolm_delaney_says_maryland.html

[Acymetric]

Someone (player or parent) will be hurt at the Comcast Center. Badly. Unfortunate that it will take a serious injury at the hands of a fan or fans to change the climate (maybe). With luck, it will happen on national television so that the pure rottenness of the crowd can be displayed for all. I for one will not accept the excuses of Gary Williams or the Maryland administration.

Already happened to Boozer's mom.

[Kdogg]

That brings to mind another very classy moment from Coach. Phil Ford had received a DWI before the Duke-UNC game and they showed Coach K going around to the sections of students before the game and the message was as it should be. The incident was not to be mentioned.

He's done that a few times over the years (ie. Loren Woods at Wake and Eric Barkley - who really is a punk - at St. Johns.)


Already happened to Boozer's mom.

Also happened to Nate James' family.

[DukeGirl4ever]

He's done that a few times over the years (ie. Loren Woods at Wake and Eric Barkley - who really is a punk - at St. Johns.)



Also happened to Nate James' family.

And wasn't Nolan's mom followed while walking to her car after the game last year?
I recall him tweeting something about that.

I went to a game there once and wore an Albright College t-shirt (my brother attended there) b/c I was afraid I'd get shot! :p

I will never go back there again. The fans were nasty and I sat in the coach's box with a friend...what does that say when COACHES are making fun of other players (one called Shelden mentally challenged....as a special ed. teacher, I can't say that actual word).
This has been discussed a thousand times but it still amazes me that nothing is done.

[Indoor66]

Albright College

From kindergarten to college on 13th street....:cool:

[4decadedukie]

We had an excellent thread -- one of many -- concerning the egregious comportment of Maryland students, alums and fans a couple weeks ago. I agree that sooner or later there will be an incident of such destructive thuggishness that meaningful changes will finally be implemented. Until then, however, it will be the routine felonies, rioting, arsons, and assaults that have become standard College Park behavior.

[DukeGirl4ever]

From kindergarten to college on 13th street....:cool:

WOW! Nice to know that!
We live about 20 minutes from Reading!

My brother transfered to Alvernia two years later to play basketball for Miller.

(Sorry off topic :D)

[OldPhiKap]

The sad part is, Gary and/or the administration could stop this tomorrow if they wanted. Everyone is clearly aware of the problem. Why they do not is beyond me. It hurts their reputation, and is a liability problem waiting to happen. (So says the lawyer).

[gus]

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/hokies-journal/2011/01/malcolm_delaney_says_maryland.html

Some of the comments are pretty atrocious.

eg, one particularly stupid comment comes from "reindeerterp":


Herman Veal had 5000 condoms thrown at him on floor in Cameron, TRUE STORY, where were the crack Post reporters that night?

Considering the incident was 28 years ago, there's a good chance the current crack Post reporters were in their cribs, but the truth is the Post did have articles about that incident.

here's one example (http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/washingtonpost_historical/access/127823122.html?FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:AI&date=Jan+24,+1984&author=&pub=The+Washington+Post++(1974-Current+file)&edition=&startpage=C2&desc=Duke's+Students+Take+The+G-Idea+to+Heart)

Indeed, the national attention to that incident is what prompted the avuncular letter. In other words- an example of school taking actual steps towards curbing outrageous student behavior...

[4decadedukie]

The sad part is, Gary and/or the administration could stop this tomorrow if they wanted. Everyone is clearly aware of the problem. Why they do not is beyond me. It hurts their reputation, and is a liability problem waiting to happen. (So says the lawyer).

This is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, however, there is a serious exacerbating factor that many outside the DC area may not appreciate.

College Park (and the University of Maryland’s campus) is the Prince George's County, Maryland. The PG County police are really a substandard organization, with lots of documented county government and law enforcement corruption, with extraordinary serious felony rates, and with an enduring, well-deserved reputation for "excessive" police behavior, including brutality. For example, after last year's "annual riot and arson rite" immediately following the Duke game at Comcast, several uninvolved UMd students were physically assaulted by the PG police; the overriding conclusion -- documented by surveillance video -- was the cops simply were emotionally overcharged and fundamentally took their passions out on non-rioting students (incidentally, this eventually became an FBI investigation).

I mention this because the disgraceful, thuggish and dangerous environment tacitly encouraged by Gary Williams and the University's leadership extends well beyond the boundaries of the Comcast Center or even Maryland's campus. There have already been many serious crimes (arsons, assaults, rioting, and so forth) on an almost-annual basis -- and this does not include the dangerous and felonious actions (throwing batteries, etc. at opposing fans, the family members of Duke players and coaches, and similar hooliganism) in Comcast during games.

Absent meaningful changes in student/fan/alumni comportment at basketball games, I believe that a serious injury or death is inevitable, directly incident to a Maryland Men's game. Obviously, that will be unnecessary and tragic, it will also be a terrible perversion of intercollegiate athletics, and -- most important -- it will be entirely preventable.

[cameroncrazy3104]

I hate Maryland fans just as much as the next guy, but I have almost an equal dislike for Virginia Tech fans. I remember a couple of years ago they harassed JJ's mom because they were still upset about JJ not staying in Virginia. I wonder if they still hate the Redick's since they sent Abby to play there

http://www.hokiesports.com/wbasketball/players/redick_abby.html

or maybe the still do because Abby transferred to Drexel....

[OldPhiKap]

This is absolutely correct. Unfortunately, however, there is a serious exacerbating factor that many outside the DC area may not appreciate.

College Park (and the University of Maryland’s campus) is the Prince George's County, Maryland. The PG County police are really a substandard organization, with lots of documented county government and law enforcement corruption, with extraordinary serious felony rates, and with an enduring, well-deserved reputation for "excessive" police behavior, including brutality. For example, after last year's "annual riot and arson rite" immediately following the Duke game at Comcast, several uninvolved UMd students were physically assaulted by the PG police; the overriding conclusion -- documented by surveillance video -- was the cops simply were emotionally overcharged and fundamentally took their passions out on non-rioting students (incidentally, this eventually became an FBI investigation).

I mention this because the disgraceful, thuggish and dangerous environment tacitly encouraged by Gary Williams and the University's leadership extends well beyond the boundaries of the Comcast Center or even Maryland's campus. There have already been many serious crimes (arsons, assaults, rioting, and so forth) on an almost-annual basis -- and this does not include the dangerous and felonious actions (throwing batteries, etc. at opposing fans, the family members of Duke players and coaches, and similar hooliganism) in Comcast during games.

Absent meaningful changes in student/fan/alumni comportment at basketball games, I believe that a serious injury or death is inevitable, directly incident to a Maryland Men's game. Obviously, that will be unnecessary and tragic, it will also be a terrible perversion of intercollegiate athletics, and -- most important -- it will be entirely preventable.

I recall the incidents last year. Sad.

The University either stands for sportsmanship or it doesn't. It doesn't. They can solve this if they gave two hoots.

[Mtn.Devil.91.92.01.10.15]

It is the comments on the article that are particularly telling... They run the gamut from calling Delaney a liar (or much worse) to saying basically "that's what you get." Then there's the many many comments that simply talk smack about VaTech.

This is what you get from Maryland fans. This is why I take so much pleasure in beating them. This is why I take a few minutes once every couple of months to watch the Jason Williams, Battier "Gone in 59 Seconds" clip on YouTube.

Really Maryland - get it together before someone gets seriously injured. Can you even imagine the fallout when the inevitable happens?

[diesel]

DBR asks lawyers today if College Park has monetary liability for visitors who are hurt by the crowds there. It may be of interest that according to one commenter to the Washington Post column on the Delaney incident, the University paid off Carlos Boozer's mother when she was hit by a water bottle at the Duke game in College Park. Can anyone verify this?

In the rest of my 02 cents on the College Park mob, I have always felt some sympathy for a much maligned force--the Prince George's County police. The members of the that force don't have the advantages and subsidies lavished on the children of privilege at College Park. Can anyone imagine how the average member of the force must feel when the said children of privilege proceed to do substantial property damage and threaten others after games?

I must also confess to having a sneaking liking for Gary Williams and the Md team, although Williams bears responsibility for not intervening in an attempt to stop the hooliganism there. But I have nothing but contempt for the so-called college administration at College Park, which has the ultimate responsibility for putting a stop to the aberrant behavior of the inmates.

[1991 duke law]

DBR asks lawyers today if College Park has monetary liability for visitors who are hurt by the crowds there. It may be of interest that according to one commenter to the Washington Post column on the Delaney incident, the University paid off Carlos Boozer's mother when she was hit by a water bottle at the Duke game in College Park. Can anyone verify this?

In the rest of my 02 cents on the College Park mob, I have always felt some sympathy for a much maligned force--the Prince George's County police. The members of the that force don't have the advantages and subsidies lavished on the children of privilege at College Park. Can anyone imagine how the average member of the force must feel when the said children of privilege proceed to do substantial property damage and threaten others after games?

I must also confess to having a sneaking liking for Gary Williams and the Md team, although Williams bears responsibility for not intervening in an attempt to stop the hooliganism there. But I have nothing but contempt for the so-called college administration at College Park, which has the ultimate responsibility for putting a stop to the aberrant behavior of the inmates.

Ok, first and foremost the applicable law is that of Maryland (assuming that there is no relevant federal law). While I am a lawyer (and have law degrees in the US and Canada) I do not practise in the US and my practise is limited to corporate finance. So my views here should be taken with a massive grain of salt. In other words, I know little of what I speak.

There are likely a number of avenues in which suit can be brought. But, putting aside punitive damages, one does have to assess what kind of damages has the claimant suffered. If the damages are simply being upset and a minor bruise, there is not a huge basis for a case. If the damages suffered are greater (ie. a loss of use of an eye, etc.), then the damages are substantial enough to justify bringing forward a claim. There are laws relating to occupier's liability (different in every jurisdiction) that can make a business responsible for harm suffered by a patron even if the business itself did not directly cause the harm. What is the criteria for responsibility would be dependant on the laws of Maryland. For instance, the failure to have adequate controls over abusive fans or being aware of a history of these abuses and not attending to them or preventing them could be factors that could lead to liability.

As a practical matter, often in these cases you need a serious injury or a serious black eye to the reputation of the school to make any headway to get real change. While, I expect, that there are no lack of ambulance chasers (not likely in Maryland though as this would not win you clients by bringing suit in that state against the Terrapins) that may take this case, I do not see it as being very productive if the damages suffered were minor.

Again, please note that I am not a litigation (or personal injury) lawyer and I do not know any Maryland law.

[Indoor66]

Again, please note that I am not a litigation (or personal injury) lawyer and I do not know any Maryland law.

Why should that limit your inclination to comment on the subject? I agree with your basic analysis in the reply. It would require real damage or injury to have a basis for a meaningful suit. It would also be difficult to find and identify the tort feasor to have a specific defendant in addition to the University and, possibly, the State.

I do think that the long history of injury/assault/injury to property and general historic rowdyness of the crowd would work in the favor of a plaintiff.

That said, the case would be in a Maryland court. My guess is it would be hard to get a jury to hold the University and State liable.

[Rudy]

Ok, first and foremost the applicable law is that of Maryland (assuming that there is no relevant federal law).
. . . .

As a practical matter, often in these cases you need a serious injury or a serious black eye to the reputation of the school to make any headway to get real change. While, I expect, that there are no lack of ambulance chasers (not likely in Maryland though as this would not win you clients by bringing suit in that state against the Terrapins) that may take this case, I do not see it as being very productive if the damages suffered were minor.


The productive result, even if the case were lost, would be to have the University and/or arena officials take opposing fans' safety more seriously. The potential financial hammer may be the only thing that improves things in this category.

While a fan assumes the risk of injury from foreseeable and unpreventable mishaps (hockey pucks or baseballs flying into the stands, or maybe a flying basketball player trying to save a ball headed out of bounds), a decent argument to me would be that no one should have to assume the risk of criminal or drunken reckless conduct by other attendees. Of course, someone may already have tried that in Maryland and there may be relevant past case law. The old Capital Center (home of the Bullets) was and the current Redskins stadium is located in Maryland. And, of course, over the years West Virginia's football fans (rivals of Maryland fans in boorishness) have often come to Byrd stadium. Back when Maryland football was taken seriously innocent bystanders between those two groups of fans were often nervous (at least I was).

Some of you may not know that UMd is just outside the D.C. city limits and many area lawyers are licensed in Md. as well as in their home jurisdictions of D.C. or Virginia. So, loyalty to Maryland or fear of business reprisal in Maryland is not a deterrent.

It's true that a minor injury (bruise from being hit by a water bottle) might not bring a significant verdict against the University or Arena operators, since the basis of the claim would be negligent failure to provide security. But if the perpetrator could be identified, a punitive damage claim could be made against him/her, and a successful case could provide some deterrence.

A lawyer or his/her firm would have to consider it a pro bono case, but it's a worthwhile effort.

[I'm a lawyer, too, but not licensed in Maryland.]

[epoulsen]

It would seem that if UMd is not serious about the safety issues then the ACC would be. Who would one contact to file complaints? After all, I'm under the impression that the ACC is supposed to be a family oriented environment, and while (legally speaking) I understand there is no real case if the only result is a black eye or a bruise I think that I have a right to attend ANY venue ANYWHERE in the ACC, or America for that matter, without having to fear for my family's safety. I've been to a UMd vs. Duke game @ College Park, I seriously questioned my own decision making as a father and a husband (though I did not bring my son), but in my defense I had no idea we would be in any real danger beyond having our feelings hurt by a few drunken comments, and a win usually takes the sting away from those comments, however up there a win usually creates a whole new sting via projectiles connecting with your head. It's sad, but for any who brave College Park for a Duke game here are some guidelines:

a) if you can tell Duke is going to win, leave early. There will be riots
b) if you can tell Duke is going to lose, leave early. There will be riots
c) if the game ends in a tie, leave early (not sure how but just do it). I'm sure after the confusion dies down there will be riots.
d) Wear helmets (seriously), as there will be much throwing of things and riots.
e) The police will not save/help you, so do not expect them to, they have riots to deal with.
f) Carry of bottle of water/vinegar on you labled "Gary's Sweat", should you find yourself bargaining for your life it will come in handy.

[OldPhiKap]

You might have immunity problems, but if it were a private property owner you would have a possible claim for maintenance of a known dangerous condition.

But not a MD atty, and haven't had time to think through any real claim.

[JimBD]

Regarding Boozer's mom being hit in the head with a full bottle of water: At the Superdome in New Orleans, they avoid that potential problem by keeping the bottle cap when they serve you a bottled beverage. I e-mailed this simple solution to the Maryland athletic department shortly after the Boozer incident. If they still have not done anything about it, it shows that they just don't care and that they are in fact encouraging violence against fans of other teams. Gary Williams could put a stop to this crap. I have great respect for him as a coach, but very little respect for him as a human being if he continues to allow this sort of behavior to happen.

[Chitowndevil]

Gary Williams could put a stop to this crap. I have great respect for him as a coach, but very little respect for him as a human being if he continues to allow this sort of behavior to happen.

I'm not at all sure this is true, actually. Having been one like many on this board, I have great respect for the way K interacts with the Crazies. But let's be realistic: Comcast is not a bed of a couple of thousand students who've tented out for weeks and an upper ring of 50+ year old donors. Many of them aren't students, aren't going to be there for a pregame speech, and aren't going to read some letter from Uncle Terry. If I were at a Bulls game and coach Tibs stopped the action to chastise some fans, I can tell you most of the people there would NOT be appreciative- like it or not, many folks think buying a ticket gives them the right to do whatever they want, and they are NOT interested in the team coach's views on the topic.

The Maryland athletic department can and absolutely should do more to control fan behavior. But I think it's a mistake to lay this on Gary Williams.

[rogermortimer]

4decadeduke has hit it spot on.

Maryland's location in College Park breeds all sorts of frustrations. Advocates of the school like to point out its proximity to DC, but really, College Park is no Georgetown (academically or socially), and PG County is a very troubled place. Yes, College Park is not in the worst of PG County by any stretch, but the campus is surrounded what is increasingly looking like a barrio. And the County police are as corrupt and brutal as they come. All of this makes for a rather raw college cultural experience, and as to hard core element of their fans, well, they are simpatico with their environment.

Statistics at some point do matter. Although it has become better, only a short time ago there were more auto thefts in PG County than in the entire Commonwealth of Virginia - more than half the thefts in Maryland, too (quite a feat considering that Baltimore has crime problems in the extreme). Murder and other violent crimes are high, too, - with an extremely ineffective police force and judiciary. PG County has many attributes of the third world (their educational attainment is awful, especially given the level of income), and well, Maryland students can't easily escape from it, especially as College Park is astride a key stop on I-95, the east coast's drug corridor.

This is not to suggest that the administration shouldn't take strong steps to correct fan behavior - they should. But they aren't there to do the right thing. They constantly walk on eggshells in PG County, and their style is ignore or spin - it fits with the culture.

The shame of it all is that compared to 30 years ago, Maryland is a much better academic school. If only it could have been located in Montgomery County - it might be a Univ of Michigan in stature and environment.

Of course, I can see now Maryland advocates harping on my comments (note I concede Maryland's significant strides academically). But really, very few top students make Maryland their first choice, and it doesn't take much to see why.

[Bostondevil]

The Maryland athletic department can and absolutely should do more to control fan behavior. But I think it's a mistake to lay this on Gary Williams.

Remember that fan last year that was removed from the Dean Smith Center? You don't think Gary Williams could ask the security guards at a Maryland game to remove a rowdy fan? He'd only have to do it a few times and folks would start to pay attention. Granted the fan at the UNC game wasn't pulling for the home team but still, Gary could do it.

Wait, are there security guards at Maryland games?

You know what else? The other schools could put a stop to it too. They could issue a command to Maryland that they will not play at Comcast Center until things changes. Yeah, Maryland would go undefeated at home due to the forfeits, but they'd lose a lot of revenue, think the university wants that? If it's really as bad as everyone says it is, the rest of the conference should try it.

[brevity]

I do not know any Maryland law.


[I'm a lawyer, too, but not licensed in Maryland.]

I think Maryland lawyers are under a statewide gag order when it comes to Terp fan hooliganism. They won't comment here.

Basic civil tort law presents an affirmative defense for assumption of risk. It was touched upon earlier, but I would argue that anyone who sets foot in the Perspiration Pavilion should expect to be killed, or at the very least maimed.

So, advice to parents of Duke Basketball: love your kid, but for games in College Park, love your health more.

[4decadedukie]

I am not an attorney, but I would like believe that I have long-demonstrated reasonable common sense and intelligence. Here are two absolutely undeniable truths:
1. Public venues have a responsibility to provide realistic, adequate security for patrons;
2. The University of Maryland has long known that serious safety issues existed at men’s basketball games (both in the arena and throughout the campus/College Park area).

I respectfully suggest that, should – perhaps, “when” might be more-germane – a serious incident occur, the fact that the University of Maryland has been aware for MANY years that this problem was both significant and prevalent will prove devastating, legally and in other very pertinent arenas. After all, among many other sources, there has been substantial media coverage for years that would alert relevant officials – from the Governor and state legislatures, to University officials, to the basketball program’s leadership – that there is a real risk of substantial injury and/or death incident to “emotional” men’s basketball games. Arson, rioting, and assaults frequently do not conclude the way the frenzied fans/alumni/students thought they would; fires become uncontrolled, rioters lack sound judgment (frequently alcohol exacerbated), objects thrown to harass opponents can hit eyes, temples, and so forth.

The jury in a tort action would necessarily have to weigh the University’s – and state and local governments’ – lack of effective and sustained actions to mitigate these risks to acceptable levels. I do not see how any fair and intelligent jury could fail to find the University and the applicable governments liable (I am ignoring Sovereign Immunity), because this aggregate matter has been well understood for at least a decade – and NO meaningful endeavors have been initiated or accomplished to resolve this problem.

[mac46]

If the damages are simply being upset and a minor bruise, there is not a huge basis for a case.

So, I'm just a 1L, but with a limited knowledge of tort law I would point out that severe damages are not required to bring a claim of battery. The only thing that is required is unwanted contact. I'm pretty sure you would still be able to attach UMd as a defendant on a theory of premises liability, particularly because it is foreseeable that a fan will be battered and the university did not take reasonable steps to protect the fans. Again, I'm a 1L, so I may be completely off base.

[Chitowndevil]

Remember that fan last year that was removed from the Dean Smith Center? You don't think Gary Williams could ask the security guards at a Maryland game to remove a rowdy fan? He'd only have to do it a few times and folks would start to pay attention.

Are you talking about this?

Link (http://rivals.yahoo.com/ncaa/basketball/blog/the_dagger/post/Roy-Williams-kicks-out-heckling-fan-at-the-Dean-?urn=ncaab-208335)

If so I don't think that's the best example, and Roy actually took some flak in the media for this.

And no, I don't think a coach calling for individual fans to be removed from the game would do much. From what I understand much of the problematic behavior at Comcast is collective and/or not easily traced back to a single individual. Much of it occurs after the game or isn't necessarily observable to someone courtside. As for what IS observable, what's Gary supposed to do, stop the action and address the crowd when they start chanting "F U Singler"? Yes Coach K might do that at Cameron but as I mentioned above that is a VERY different environment. Coaches have other things to do during game action than police the actions of fans. The only exception is when those actions impact players' safety.

A big part of me cannot believe I'm defending Gary Williams here. But I do think it's grossly unfair to assume he has the same kind of influence on fans at Comcast that K has at Cameron.

[1991 duke law]

So, I'm just a 1L, but with a limited knowledge of tort law I would point out that severe damages are not required to bring a claim of battery. The only thing that is required is unwanted contact. I'm pretty sure you would still be able to attach UMd as a defendant on a theory of premises liability, particularly because it is foreseeable that a fan will be battered and the university did not take reasonable steps to protect the fans. Again, I'm a 1L, so I may be completely off base.

Agreed but the issue is one of reality versus legality. The severity of damages has no bearing whatsoever on the ability to bring a claim. You can always sue even if your damages are only $1. The issue is whether you would bother to bring an action for minimal damages. If you were struck on the head with no effect beyond being aggravated, you are not going to sue. If you are struck on the head and you suffer daily headaches and have regular attendance at a physician for the problem, your damages would justify bringing an action. Again, depending on the law of that state you will sue everyone that you can.

[cato]

So, I'm just a 1L, but with a limited knowledge of tort law I would point out that severe damages are not required to bring a claim of battery. The only thing that is required is unwanted contact. I'm pretty sure you would still be able to attach UMd as a defendant on a theory of premises liability, particularly because it is foreseeable that a fan will be battered and the university did not take reasonable steps to protect the fans. Again, I'm a 1L, so I may be completely off base.

Okay, so you bring a claim. Now what? It's not enough to show that you have a claim that would survive the summary judgment of your torts professor. If you can't show damages, or invoke some sort of penalty, what is the point? You go to court to get a judgment. What judgment would you seek if you did not suffer any significant damages?

[cato]

Ok, first and foremost the applicable law is that of Maryland (assuming that there is no relevant federal law).

Either way, you're probably in state court. I believe that UMD is an instrumentality of the state, and therefore protected by the Eleventh Amendment. I can't think of any exception that would allow someone to sue the university in Federal court.

And in state court, I would think that sovereign immunity would generally apply. I'm not sure what basis there would be for getting around it, although I would love to hear some theories.

[1991 duke law]

Either way, you're probably in state court. I believe that UMD is an instrumentality of the state, and therefore protected by the Eleventh Amendment. I can't think of any exception that would allow someone to sue the university in Federal court.

And in state court, I would think that sovereign immunity would generally apply. I'm not sure what basis there would be for getting around it, although I would love to hear some theories.

Ok, this is where I am way out of my element in US law (hey, I graduated Duke law school 20 years ago and have only practised corporate finance in Canada).

[mac46]

Okay, so you bring a claim. Now what? It's not enough to show that you have a claim that would survive the summary judgment of your torts professor. If you can't show damages, or invoke some sort of penalty, what is the point? You go to court to get a judgment. What judgment would you seek if you did not suffer any significant damages?

I'm sorry, I was in class and wasn't able to articulate my train of thought very well. My idea was that you would be able to use any sort of battery claim just as a way to get in front of a jury. Once you've stated a case and attached the university as a defendant, you bring forth evidence of the university's failure to control the fans inside the arena. You show that many similar incidents have occurred prior to the one at issue, and that the university did nothing to prevent such incidents.

The end goal would be to seek punitive damages against the university for their gross negligence in allowing such a pugnacious atmosphere to persist in the arena, not just compensatory damages from the fan who struck you.

Of course, the problem you're up against then is that you're in front of a judge/jury who is also from Maryland and thus unlikely to hand out a large punitive damage amount. So the ideal would be to find a case of someone who was injured enough to have medical bills greater than $75k. Then, assuming the two fans are of diverse citizenship, you can get the case into a federal court and hopefully get a larger punitive damage amount.

Again, these are just my thoughts on the matter, the last thing I meant to do was claim that I know more than anyone else on the subject.

[J.Blink]

Regarding Boozer's mom being hit in the head with a full bottle of water: At the Superdome in New Orleans, they avoid that potential problem by keeping the bottle cap when they serve you a bottled beverage. I e-mailed this simple solution to the Maryland athletic department shortly after the Boozer incident. If they still have not done anything about it, it shows that they just don't care and that they are in fact encouraging violence against fans of other teams..

Is that why they do that? They did that at Lucas Oil Stadium in Indianapolis for the Final Four and I didn't understand the reason behind it. I had assumed it had more to do with vendors making money.

[4decadedukie]

A big part of me cannot believe I'm defending Gary Williams here. But I do think it's grossly unfair to assume he has the same kind of influence on fans at Comcast that K has at Cameron.

Chitowndevil - I do NOT intend to direct my remarks at you per se; however, I believe many miss something Williams could do that, I am completely certain, would be absolutely effective.

He could quit, or truly threaten to. Gary could walk into the AD's and the University President's office saying -- and meaning -- two simple things:
1. I will not associate my name, my reputation, and my future with a program and a University that routinely and repeatedly permits such unnecessary, dangerous and despicable conduct;
2. I am notifying you right now that I will not tolerate it; should it ever occur again, I will immediately resign and call a press conference the following day to explain to fans, alumni, donors, the faculty, state political officials, the ACC and NCAA, and the University’s leadership why I have done so.

Gary will not do this because (charitably) he does not perceive that his responsibilities include broadly based fan/alumni/student game behavior. This is a simple abrogatioin of leadership responsibilities, which demand that all leaders are accountable for every element (no exemptions or excuses) associated with their program. Less sympathetically, I am personally convinced that Williams will not do so because he believes the hostile Comcast/College Park environment provides a competitive advantage – and he is ONLY concerned with winning.

[sue71, esq]

You know what else? The other schools could put a stop to it too. They could issue a command to Maryland that they will not play at Comcast Center until things changes. Yeah, Maryland would go undefeated at home due to the forfeits, but they'd lose a lot of revenue, think the university wants that? If it's really as bad as everyone says it is, the rest of the conference should try it.

I'm curious where the ACC stands in all of this. I know in other conferences, fan sportsmanship has been emphasized more & more over the past several years, and schools ARE held accountable for fan behavior. I'm curious what the ACC has to say, if anything.

[jdj4duke]

There are two or three threads about UMd fan behavior every year; the only difference here is that someone from another ACC school complained publicly. So with respect to all the lawyerly speculation, hypotheticals, and concern among Duke and other fans for the safety of outsiders, it's pretty clear that neither the UMd administration nor Gary Williams think that fan behavior in Comcast is a problem serious enough to address.

Throwing things, physical intimidation and threats, endless written and shouted vulgarity and profanity, and just general obnoxious and unsportsmanlike behavior have not abated in the least through years of hand-wringing, riots, and police actions.

As pointed out a million times- it is easy to fix. They choose not to do so. It's to the point where Joseph Welch should be around to ask UMd and Williams "Have you no sense of decency sir, at long last? Have you left no sense of decency?"

[OldPhiKap]

And in state court, I would think that sovereign immunity would generally apply. I'm not sure what basis there would be for getting around it, although I would love to hear some theories.

In many states, sovereign immunity is waived to the extent there is insurance coverage. Up to the policy limits.

I don't know who owns the Comcast Center, or who provides security, but there may be a private defendant there as well.

[OldPhiKap]

Chitowndevil - I do NOT intend to direct my remarks at you per se; however, I believe many miss something Williams could do that, I am completely certain, would be absolutely effective.

He could quit, or truly threaten to. Gary could walk into the AD's and the University President's office saying -- and meaning -- two simple things:
1. I will not associate my name, my reputation, and my future with a program and a University that routinely and repeatedly permits such unnecessary, dangerous and despicable conduct;
2. I am notifying you right now that I will not tolerate it; should it ever occur again, I will immediately resign and call a press conference the following day to explain to fans, alumni, donors, the faculty, state political officials, the ACC and NCAA, and the University’s leadership why I have done so.

Gary will not do this because (charitably) he does not perceive that his responsibilities include broadly based fan/alumni/student game behavior. This is a simple abrogatioin of leadership responsibilities, which demand that all leaders are accountable for every element (no exemptions or excuses) associated with their program. Less sympathetically, I am personally convinced that Williams will not do so because he believes the hostile Comcast/College Park environment provides a competitive advantage – and he is ONLY concerned with winning.

Gary doesn't need to do anything this drastic. He can:

1. Take the mic at the announcer's table, and tell everyone to knock it off. I seem to recall K doing this.

2. Go on his tv/radio show and condemn these types of actions.

3. Publish an open avuncular letter.

[sagegrouse]

Gary doesn't need to do anything this drastic. He can:

1. Take the mic at the announcer's table, and tell everyone to knock it off. I seem to recall K doing this.



Plus threaten to pull his team off the court.

sagegrouse

[4decadedukie]

Gary doesn't need to do anything this drastic. He can:

1. Take the mic at the announcer's table, and tell everyone to knock it off. I seem to recall K doing this.

2. Go on his tv/radio show and condemn these types of actions.

3. Publish an open avuncular letter.


I absolutely agree with you and Sage; my post, which you cited, ONLY illustrates that Williams has a guaranteed, successful alternative -- if he cared enough, and/or was ethical enough, and/or was professional enough to utilize it.

[Indoor66]

I absolutely agree with you and Sage; my post, which you cited, ONLY illustrates that Williams has a guaranteed, successful alternative -- if he cared enough, and/or was ethical enough, and/or was professional enough to utilize it.

Which Williams are you speaking about?

[4decadedukie]

Gary, although I appreciate your implied reference.
:D