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Fuqua's Finest
01-12-2011, 11:48 PM
I am curious to know what everyone thinks about our problems in the post. Some believe it's the Plumlee's lack of offensive skill and others think it's the lack of opportunities. I find myself on the latter end. When I watch this team play (post-Kyrie), I don't see many post opportunities. I know our team is perimeter-oriented with so many shooters, but I don't think they even look to pass on the inside. I see the Plumlee's post up opponents several times a game just to get called up for a screen on the perimeter. Our best post passer IMO is Ryan Kelly and that's almost shameful to say. When your bigs only collectively attempt 4 shots all game, a problem exists. I really look forward to your opinions.

Dr. Tina
01-13-2011, 12:56 AM
I agree! We are not getting the ball into the post well at all. I don't like all the dribbling and passing around the perimeter...as if something is just going to miraculously open up for us so we can get lane to the basket or an uncontested 3 pt. shot somehow. Maybe part of the reason why the Post Guys are ineffective around the basket when they do have the ball is that they aren't getting enough touches to get comfortable with it in the first place?

We definitely miss Kyrie in this regard, but I feel like maybe having Thornton run the point more in games would give this aspect of our game a jolt. I know he's a freshman, but I like what we saw of Tyler in the MD game and in his limited minutes in game before as well.

Lord Ash
01-13-2011, 07:17 AM
I am finding the post play to be disappointing. I know that "live by the three, die by the three" is a constant point of discussion for Duke over the years, but I am amazed by how we don't look inside at all.

I was watching Mason a bit this game, and it seemed like they were fronting him an awful lot on D. If I were a perimeter player passing into the post, I would be a bit nervous that A) he would immediately be doubled by the far side defender when the ball went inside, and B) that Mason maybe doesn't have the hands to hold onto the ball and make a good offensive play if that second defender came running over.

I do wonder why we don't try running plays for the inside to see how things go and at least try to pull defenders in to get our perimeter guys a more open look. Is there a problem with how Mason and Miles post up that maybe I don't see? They certainly don't look terribly open down low, but maybe I'm missing something. Is there a fear that they'll turn the ball over too much if it goes down to them, that maybe they are not the best at passing back out? Maybe someone with more basketball Xs and Os knowledge can help out.

superdave
01-13-2011, 09:28 AM
I am finding the post play to be disappointing. I know that "live by the three, die by the three" is a constant point of discussion for Duke over the years, but I am amazed by how we don't look inside at all.

I was watching Mason a bit this game, and it seemed like they were fronting him an awful lot on D. If I were a perimeter player passing into the post, I would be a bit nervous that A) he would immediately be doubled by the far side defender when the ball went inside, and B) that Mason maybe doesn't have the hands to hold onto the ball and make a good offensive play if that second defender came running over.

I do wonder why we don't try running plays for the inside to see how things go and at least try to pull defenders in to get our perimeter guys a more open look. Is there a problem with how Mason and Miles post up that maybe I don't see? They certainly don't look terribly open down low, but maybe I'm missing something. Is there a fear that they'll turn the ball over too much if it goes down to them, that maybe they are not the best at passing back out? Maybe someone with more basketball Xs and Os knowledge can help out.

I just dont think Mason and Miles and Ryan are all that wide, and they dont play wide which is part of how you sit down on the block, seal your guy off, dont get pushed out, and are pre-positioned to make a move. They may be able to learn to play wider (think Coach K telling Mason he's playing small from that Espn all access thing a few months ago). But these guys are more face-up players - all 3 of them. Defensively they know how to take up space, but not offensively. We also do not look for our bigs when our wings penetrate. That's how Boozer scored half his points - dunks after dumpoffs from the driver.

Lord Ash
01-13-2011, 11:42 AM
I wonder how challenging it is for the coaching staff, which is made up of entirely guards, to teach playing the post?

I know that, as a former athlete, it would be very hard for me to teach the more subtle nuances of a different position in my sport.

For example, as a hockey goalie I've taught at plenty of goaltending clinics and schools, and I can pass on all sorts of subtle bits that non-goalies might not know about... tricks like tying up attackers skates with your stick without the ref calling it, and using the ice scrapings from the crease to block off the outside of the posts so passes can't cut too close to the net.

But if you asked me to coach at a forwards camps I could do the basics of offensive and defensive spacing and passing and stuff, but would have a hard time really explaining some of the subtle "You know it when you feel it" sort of things.

Would it be helpful to have a good big on the staff to help with that sort of thing?

I know this topic sometimes brings know-it-all eye-rolling from some posters, but I think it is a valid point of discussion. As I said, as a multi-sport athlete myself, as well as someone who has taught and coached, I think there is something there. Are there any former bigs out there, former Duke guys or not, who coach on the collegiate level, and have shown consistent improvement in their bigs?

MChambers
01-13-2011, 11:53 AM
I wonder how challenging it is for the coaching staff, which is made up of entirely guards, to teach playing the post?

I know that, as a former athlete, it would be very hard for me to teach the more subtle nuances of a different position in my sport.

For example, as a hockey goalie I've taught at plenty of goaltending clinics and schools, and I can pass on all sorts of subtle bits that non-goalies might not know about... tricks like tying up attackers skates with your stick without the ref calling it, and using the ice scrapings from the crease to block off the outside of the posts so passes can't cut too close to the net.

But if you asked me to coach at a forwards camps I could do the basics of offensive and defensive spacing and passing and stuff, but would have a hard time really explaining some of the subtle "You know it when you feel it" sort of things.

Would it be helpful to have a good big on the staff to help with that sort of thing?

I know this topic sometimes brings know-it-all eye-rolling from some posters, but I think it is a valid point of discussion. As I said, as a multi-sport athlete myself, as well as someone who has taught and coached, I think there is something there. Are there any former bigs out there, former Duke guys or not, who coach on the collegiate level, and have shown consistent improvement in their bigs?

But you don't need height to teach big men. The best known big man coach ever was Pete Newell, who was height challenged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Newell

Also, I think Wojo showed last year that he could coach Zoubs.

cameroncrazy3104
01-13-2011, 11:55 AM
To me it is that it seems like there is a complete lack of aggression primarily with Mason and Ryan. I think Josh is great for that reason, he is one of if not the only post player who actually fights for everything he gets. Mason is decent on the offensive boards, Ryan really cant post someone up, Miles can play alright at times, Josh consistently gives 110% every minute he is out there and that is all we can ask of him. If we can actually have somewhat of a post option with a legit paint scorer or at least all of them working hard, it will free up seth, andre, nolan, and kyle for 3s or back doors.

I first noticed this last night when our post players seem to not even try to get a rebound or loose ball. We need a guy like Nolan in the post who will set an example of how you are supposed to play.

rhcpflea99
01-13-2011, 12:04 PM
I have seen Miles and Mason ask for the ball down low plenty of time and plenty of time the guard swings the ball the other way.

UrinalCake
01-13-2011, 12:51 PM
I think it depends a lot on matchups. If we're playing a team without a quality interior defender, then we'll get the ball to the Plumlees more inside. Also, if the game is close or if we're losing, we don't seem to go inside. Although that's largely because Smith and Singler are taking most of the shots in those situations. We saw Mason score 25 against Marquette, so the ability is there somewhere, he just needs a few more opportunities and to build some confidence. I do have concerns about big man recruits wanting to come to Duke after seeing how little the Plumlees are getting the ball (especially Mason; Miles seems more content to be less of an offensive option).

hq2
01-13-2011, 01:30 PM
To me it is that it seems like there is a complete lack of aggression primarily with Mason and Ryan. I think Josh is great for that reason, he is one of if not the only post player who actually fights for everything he gets.

I think there's something to this. You just don't see the Plumlees (except Mason occasionally, and he can't shoot free throws) fight their way to the rim. They either
dunk when open, or loft open jump shots. You don't see them put their heads down, go in and say "I'm gonna score, so just try and stop me". If they did that more often, they'd at least get to the free throw line and get the other guys in foul trouble.

gwlaw99
01-13-2011, 01:49 PM
I wonder how challenging it is for the coaching staff, which is made up of entirely guards, to teach playing the post?

I know that, as a former athlete, it would be very hard for me to teach the more subtle nuances of a different position in my sport.

For example, as a hockey goalie I've taught at plenty of goaltending clinics and schools, and I can pass on all sorts of subtle bits that non-goalies might not know about... tricks like tying up attackers skates with your stick without the ref calling it, and using the ice scrapings from the crease to block off the outside of the posts so passes can't cut too close to the net.

But if you asked me to coach at a forwards camps I could do the basics of offensive and defensive spacing and passing and stuff, but would have a hard time really explaining some of the subtle "You know it when you feel it" sort of things.

Would it be helpful to have a good big on the staff to help with that sort of thing?

I know this topic sometimes brings know-it-all eye-rolling from some posters, but I think it is a valid point of discussion. As I said, as a multi-sport athlete myself, as well as someone who has taught and coached, I think there is something there. Are there any former bigs out there, former Duke guys or not, who coach on the collegiate level, and have shown consistent improvement in their bigs?

I have said this before, but then I get piled on because Wojo did a good job with Zubek's rebounding. Neither Plumlee has added anything offensively to their game and that is problem. There was one up and under move that a FS player made on Mason last night that made me wish that either Plumlee could do it.

Channing
01-13-2011, 01:54 PM
But you don't need height to teach big men. The best known big man coach ever was Pete Newell, who was height challenged.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pete_Newell

Also, I think Wojo showed last year that he could coach Zoubs.

Pete Newell may have been the exception and not the rule. I think the reference to Wojo's job with Zoubek is a little tired. Zoubek came out of high school with a really big time reputation but suffered injuries and wasn't really healthy until his senior season. Anyone who watched his occasional hook shot saw he had the fundamentals to be a good low post player. What did Wojo do for his offensive skillset? Zoubek was a complete non-factor when it came to scoring the basketball.

I also don't think Wojo did anything for Brand's skillset (he went out with basically the same talents he came in with). Boozer, an NBA all star, shot an absurd percentage from the floor but was never featured in our offense. I also don't think Wojo did much for his skills, as I don't recall Boozer learning any new moves or getting better in any sense other than getting stronger while at Duke.

Aside from Shelden, I think you will be hard pressed to find any big man that came to Duke and got significantly better on the offensive end under Wojo.

I am sure I will get the standard response of: "look at how many Duke bigs are in the league ..." But, if we say that Cal's player's that are in the NBA would have been there anyway, we have to say the same about Elton, Carlos, Shelden, and McBob.

*edit - also, its not like we are throwing 2 and 3 star recruits at Wojo and asking him to work miracles. He is getting, for the most part, top 5 players at their position. People who have skills already.

MChambers
01-13-2011, 02:00 PM
I think there's something to this. You just don't see the Plumlees (except Mason occasionally, and he can't shoot free throws) fight their way to the rim. They either
dunk when open, or loft open jump shots. You don't see them put their heads down, go in and say "I'm gonna score, so just try and stop me". If they did that more often, they'd at least get to the free throw line and get the other guys in foul trouble.
I think there's something to this, and there have been indications that the coaching staff has been trying to get our bigs to take the ball to the rim more aggressively.

I wonder if the Plumlees' weakness at free throw shooting makes them reluctant to try to draw fouls. I thought that might have explained some of Chris Webber's offensive deficiencies: he was a relatively poor free throw shooter and seemed to settle for wide open dunk or open jumpers, rather trying to draw fouls.

swood1000
01-13-2011, 02:03 PM
At one point against Florida State Curry took a 3pt baseline shot when Dawkins, I believe, was standing alone under the basket. Maybe Curry didn't see him, maybe Dawkins was not as open as he looked, or maybe the incentives for taking the shot were greater than the incentives for passing it in. He missed.

JMarley50
01-13-2011, 02:07 PM
To me it is that it seems like there is a complete lack of aggression primarily with Mason and Ryan. I think Josh is great for that reason, he is one of if not the only post player who actually fights for everything he gets. Mason is decent on the offensive boards, Ryan really cant post someone up, Miles can play alright at times, Josh consistently gives 110% every minute he is out there and that is all we can ask of him. If we can actually have somewhat of a post option with a legit paint scorer or at least all of them working hard, it will free up seth, andre, nolan, and kyle for 3s or back doors.

I first noticed this last night when our post players seem to not even try to get a rebound or loose ball. We need a guy like Nolan in the post who will set an example of how you are supposed to play.

I agree with you on Josh. I have been screaming at the tv for a couple weeks now to put Josh in. He's not scared of contact and his footwork in the paint looks much better.

Like Superdave said I think the main problem is them playing big. They aren't getting themselves in good positions. I should know, because I was a post player, and had "you have to play bigger" screamed at me all the time in high school, and about half of my freshman year in college. Its mostly a mindset but some of it is in the technique too. Take a mental image from last year of Zoubs posting up vs Mason this year. (I looked for a good comparison pictures and couldn't find any).

Zoubs occupied twice as much space. He always had a good wide stance, elbows out wide, and palms facing forward. If the defender is going to fight around, he is going have to get way out of position to do so which would make a pass to the other side of your body wide open. He still wasn't much of a scorer once he got the ball, but his technique was great none the less!

Mason stands almost completely upright sometimes. His hands are either reaching directly out in front of him with his elbows close to his body, or kind of behind him trying to feel where the defender is (if his palms are facing behind him it makes catching passes much harder). Either way it makes it very easy for the defender to fight around at the last second as the entry pass arrives. I think our guards see and know this. Some of the times he appears open, he really isn't. Its just the defender playing behind and trying to bait that entry pass. He also gets caught leaning on the defender when he tries to post. All the defender has to do is spin off or step aside and suddenly Mason loses balance, and gives up his position.

When he does get the ball in the paint, he doesn't seem to have much feel for where the defense is. He often turns right into the defender, always to the middle it seems. A lot of times if he would just spin the opposite way he would have a wide open dunk.

With all that said, Wojo does see these things and I'm sure he preaches it to them. If Wojo didn't notice it, somebody on the staff would and would point it out to him. I've noticed he's been looking really frustrated on the bench lately. If I was a betting man I would say a lot of it has to do with guys not doing what they've been told.

superdave
01-13-2011, 02:09 PM
I think both Mason and Miles are more "finishers" than post scorers. We should not expect them to go Kevin McHale all of the sudden. But they can score when they get the ball in the right place at the right time. A lot of that has to do with PG play. I'd like to see both of them get more passes on cuts to the rim - not necessarily lobs, but a pass, no dribble necessary and a power finish. But I think the PG best prepared to create those opportunities is in a cast right now.

weezie
01-13-2011, 02:12 PM
There was one up and under move that a FS player made on Mason last night that made me wish that either Plumlee could do it.

And it would likely have been called a charge or a travel on either Plumlee. No knock against your observation but there is something in their stance that the refs are watching. Maybe just not enough experience and sleight of hand. After all, it took Zoubs four full years to get to the point where he could lean on offensive players without getting caught.

Late 2nd half last night, Kyle verbally griped to a ref, something he has not done before, to my recollection. I think we were jobbed several times and at crucial moments but our bigs will learn and keep growing. I'd like a clinic on "boxing out" to be held in Cameron soon.

MChambers
01-13-2011, 02:18 PM
Pete Newell may have been the exception and not the rule. I think the reference to Wojo's job with Zoubek is a little tired. Zoubek came out of high school with a really big time reputation but suffered injuries and wasn't really healthy until his senior season. Anyone who watched his occasional hook shot saw he had the fundamentals to be a good low post player. What did Wojo do for his offensive skillset? Zoubek was a complete non-factor when it came to scoring the basketball.

I also don't think Wojo did anything for Brand's skillset (he went out with basically the same talents he came in with). Boozer, an NBA all star, shot an absurd percentage from the floor but was never featured in our offense. I also don't think Wojo did much for his skills, as I don't recall Boozer learning any new moves or getting better in any sense other than getting stronger while at Duke.

Aside from Shelden, I think you will be hard pressed to find any big man that came to Duke and got significantly better on the offensive end under Wojo.

I am sure I will get the standard response of: "look at how many Duke bigs are in the league ..." But, if we say that Cal's player's that are in the NBA would have been there anyway, we have to say the same about Elton, Carlos, Shelden, and McBob.

*edit - also, its not like we are throwing 2 and 3 star recruits at Wojo and asking him to work miracles. He is getting, for the most part, top 5 players at their position. People who have skills already.
Newell may have been the exception, but he was quite an exception.

Just saying only Shelden has improved is a little odd. Shelden improved a tremendous amount at Duke. Remember how unpolished he was when he arrived?

And on Zoubs, 12 months ago people were saying the same things here that they're saying about the Plumlees. So I don't think that the Zoubs coaching thing is tired, but everyone has their own view.

Finally, Miles wasn't anywhere close to a Top 5 player.

superdave
01-13-2011, 03:08 PM
Newell may have been the exception, but he was quite an exception.

Just saying only Shelden has improved is a little odd. Shelden improved a tremendous amount at Duke. Remember how unpolished he was when he arrived?

And on Zoubs, 12 months ago people were saying the same things here that they're saying about the Plumlees. So I don't think that the Zoubs coaching thing is tired, but everyone has their own view.

Finally, Miles wasn't anywhere close to a Top 5 player.

But Shelden was a back to basket scoring threat. Neither of the Plums nor Kelly is. That's not their game and probably wont be. Apples and oranges...

MChambers
01-13-2011, 03:12 PM
But Shelden was a back to basket scoring threat. Neither of the Plums nor Kelly is. That's not their game and probably wont be. Apples and oranges...

I wasn't trying to say they are similar. Just trying to point out how much Shelden improved offensively under Wojo's coaching.

sagegrouse
01-13-2011, 03:32 PM
This thread is a good idea.

Is anyone else like me? When one of our big men fails to finish within 2 feet of the basket, I tend to forget all the good stuff he does the rest of the game. It is just demoralizng for this fan.

That said, there are some positives about our bigs. Mason mopped up 14 rebounds last night and is by far Duke's best rebounder this season (7.6 per game, but 50% more per minute than Kyle). Mason is also able to stay on the court, averaging just over two fouls a game. He also runs the court well, although there few transition baskets last night. We are looking for more pizzazz from this big guy.

Miles is rebounding well (5.1 per game) and has made some very heady defensive plays. He is still picking up fouls at an unconscionable rate: in 30 mins. of action he would have almost exactly 5.0 fouls.

Ryan clearly has the most offensive flare of any of the three, in terms of moves around the basket (althouogh not true post moves) and the ability to hit the outside shot. But he is not as strong as either Plumlee in the inside play, resulting in fewer rebounds.

Clearly, Mason and Ryan have made great strides from last year. Miles is better but not by as much.

But last night the total absence of inside scoring was a huge problem. It seems to me that Duke would do well on a 20-20-20-20 scoring distribution: 20 each for Kyle and Nolan, 20 combined for the big men, and 20 combined for Seth and Andre. I thought last night that Seth and Andre's mediocre performance was the difference, but, in fact, they managed to score 16 points between them. The bigs totaled only six points in 53 minutes. Six points inside doesn't cut it; they should get at least 12 just cleaning up the mess in the lane and making a couple of free throws. So, while Seth and Andre were not very efficient, the total lack of scoring inside stand out like a sore thumb.

This post is a bit rambling, but these darned Golden Eagles keep buzzing overhead, and I tend to lose concentration.

sagegrouse

gumbomoop
01-13-2011, 04:49 PM
Last night the total absence of inside scoring was a huge problem. It seems to me that Duke would do well on a 20-20-20-20 scoring distribution: 20 each for Kyle and Nolan, 20 combined for the big men, and 20 combined for Seth and Andre. I thought last night that Seth and Andre's mediocre performance was the difference, but, in fact, they managed to score 16 points between them. The bigs totaled only six points in 53 minutes. Six points inside doesn't cut it; they should get at least 12 just cleaning up the mess in the lane and making a couple of free throws. So, while Seth and Andre were not very efficient, the total lack of scoring inside stand out like a sore thumb.

This is pretty close to my own previously stated "keys to victory" prognostication for this year's Blue Devils. Apologies for quoting my summary from the Phase III thread......


To sum up: Duke will win almost [and probably] all close games in which:

a. either Kyle or Nolan is superb, and
b. either Seth or Andre scores 12-15 points and plays good D, and
c. either Ryan or Mason or Miles gets near a double-double [or, as an alternate, collectively they produce, say, 18 and 18, with 3-4 blocks], and
d. Duke plays every play on D

Piece of cake.

Against FSU --

a. The 2 best players last evening played for FSU; one was a "career-night" sort of surprise. It happens: a couple of Kitchen's shots were of the "I think maybe this is FSU's night" variety.
b. Neither Seth nor Andre was consistent, to put it mildly; together 5/20 [and 2/14 3-pt] FG, 0 assists, 4 TOs; Andre not solid defensively.
c. 19 rebounds [mostly Mason's] fits my theory, but 6 points [2/8 FG] sure doesn't.
d. I suspect K would say, "Not quite every play. FSU was much more aggressive, wanted the ball more." [Maybe he did say pretty much that, in postgame comments.]

Rather than a piece of cake, a bitter pill.

But maybe the good news is that not only did the Devils not fulfill all 4 of my "keys," they fulfilled none of them, yet barely lost.

The thought has therefore crossed my mind that my "keys" are, well, slightly off-key. Corrections happily considered. Preferably minor corrections. No corrections will implicate Sagegrouse, who is, in this case, innocent [as opposed to an innocent].

Duvall
01-13-2011, 05:14 PM
I also don't think Wojo did anything for Brand's skillset (he went out with basically the same talents he came in with).

Pretty safe bet, considering.

Devilsfan
01-13-2011, 05:19 PM
I don't think we are physical and we seem to have soft hands down low. When our "bigs" step out to shoot in practice they probably make a lot of their shots, but in a game they should all three share the name "Mason". In Vitale's words, "It's Brick City, Baby".

Greg_Newton
01-13-2011, 05:22 PM
In my opinion, it's not just post scoring, it's being able to attack (and force opponents to defend) the rim. It'd be one thing if we had a stable of quick, strong wings that regularly got to the rim and finished - but we don't. Aside from Nolan, our perimeter players are all shooters rather than slashers.

As for post offense, we've done so many things badly for so long I'm not even sure where to start.

-We don't run plays where feeding the post is the primary option, so if a big wants good position, he's got to wrestle it out all by himself.

-When a big does get position, he never gets the ball when he should. Part of this is probably due to them not being the primary option, part of it's just probably not being used to feeding the post, but the ball always arrives a second or two after position is established. That's a long time to ask someone to hold position, especially lanky guys like we have.

-When the Plumlees do get the ball in position, it's almost like they get self conscious. They stand straight and bump back with their shoulders, rather than getting deep and using their posterior to generate space. They seem to focus on "executing a proper post move" without regard to the situation rather than reading their defender and just trying to get to the rim and score the ball. They look at the ball while dribbling, and don't look at the rim until after they leave their feet. Mason in particular doesn't bump his defender just before their shot (to impede his jump), he just tries to get a clean shot over the top of him.

I could go on and on... but at this point, I've just kind of resigned myself to accepting it as part of the philosophy that won us a championship last year, despite my aesthetic issues with it. Who knows whether it's Wojo, the style of bigs we recruit, the food in the cafeteria or what, but bigs with confidence and feel for the offensive game have become very rare around these parts.

(I do kind of wonder what would happen if you swapped Miles for Zeller, how each would perform on their new teams. I think that would be very telling.)

sagegrouse
01-13-2011, 05:50 PM
I also don't think Wojo did anything for Brand's skillset (he went out with basically the same talents he came in with).

Lets see. In the 1998 season Wojo was the point guard and Brand was the starting center (when not injured). I think Wojo's job was to get Elton the ball, and I never heard any complaints. :rolleyes:

When Brand was NPOY in his second and last year, Steve was playing basketball in Poland. In neither case did Wojo help improve Brand's interior play, although Elton was a much better player when he left than when he arrived. ;)

sagegrouse

Channing
01-13-2011, 06:22 PM
Pretty safe bet, considering.


Lets see. In the 1998 season Wojo was the point guard and Brand was the starting center (when not injured). I think Wojo's job was to get Elton the ball, and I never heard any complaints. :rolleyes:

When Brand was NPOY in his second and last year, Steve was playing basketball in Poland. In neither case did Wojo help improve Brand's interior play, although Elton was a much better player when he left than when he arrived. ;)

sagegrouse

I stand corrected on Brand, but don't think that diminishes the rest of my point at all. Take out brand, put in Horvath, Casey Sanders, and even Matt Christenson.

DukieinSoCal
01-13-2011, 06:33 PM
But Shelden was a back to basket scoring threat. Neither of the Plums nor Kelly is. That's not their game and probably wont be. Apples and oranges...

When you're almost 7 feet tall and play the 4/5, don't you have to develop some kind of back to the basket moves? It's not like either Plum can consistently hit a jump shot outside of 10 feet. I'm just wondering exactly what they've been working on these past 2-3 years, other than hitting the gym. I don't think the NC summer league is conducive to developing fundamentals or footwork. Maybe they both need to go big man camp this summer.

superdave
01-13-2011, 07:44 PM
When you're almost 7 feet tall and play the 4/5, don't you have to develop some kind of back to the basket moves? It's not like either Plum can consistently hit a jump shot outside of 10 feet. I'm just wondering exactly what they've been working on these past 2-3 years, other than hitting the gym. I don't think the NC summer league is conducive to developing fundamentals or footwork. Maybe they both need to go big man camp this summer.

First of all, their defensive improvement over last year is a big deal. We need D out of them more than O, considering our other scoring options (Nolan, Kyle, Andre, Seth). This is important to note so we dont all spiral into "the Plums have not improved" mode.

On the jumpshot thing, I thought Miles shot better last year for the elbows and baseline than he has this year. That's probably due to the absence of Scheyer and a more read-react offense this year rather than the methodical and deliberate offense last year. I cannot actually recall that many jumpers by either of the two this year.

I do think their offense has dropped off a great deal without a true pg on the court. Kyrie got them easy shots because he is both a great pg and because he drew so much attention from defense.

I think we need to set our offensive expectations for Miles and Mason according to their strengths - both are really good finishers, good leapers and are quick. I dont think their strengths are back to the basket post moves, though. If they are going to be consistent scorers (outside of stickbacks and the occasional dunk) then it is important to get them the ball in scoring situations so they dont have to dribble too much (if at all) or put the Dream-shake on anyone. I think good ways for them to score are lobs, rolls to the basket after picks, drop-off passes on wing penetration, and yes, 10-12 foot jumpers. Mason is a little more comfortable making faceup moves than Miles but he still needs more work on it. Both have shown they can hit a quick drop-step move or baby hook on occasion, but I think that comes with the confidence that they can beat their under-sized defender more than the confidence in their back to the basket move. It's a question of growing more comfortable in that quick move vs. ACC defenders, in my opinion, and confidence comes with more touches and more shot attempts.

While there are ways to get these two shots that play to their strengths, I have not seen a concerted effort by Duke to do so since Irving went out. This could be an adjustment Coach K makes in January. I hope so because these guys are more under-utilized offensively in my opinion than merely under-performing.