MBB: FSU 66, Duke 61 Post Game Thread

[DukeHoopsGuru]

A road loss to a good team isn't the end of the world, but this is 2006 without Kyrie. It's scary how similar they are.

1. Redick = Smith
2. Williams = Singler
3. McRoberts = Mason (Both -edited- McDonald's AA)
4. Nelson = Dawkins (both 1 dimensional in what they do offensively)
5. Paulus = Curry (both good shooters, good hoops IQ, can't sniff a drive)

Again not the end of the world, but could see a Sweet 16 exit against a team just like this and just like LSU.

[Bob Green]

Discuss the game here. Please remain calm folks, the sun will rise tomorrow.

[TheRob8801]

Hats off to FSU. We got outplayed and outcoached tonight.

ACC coaches with any length of tenure typically outcoach K when the talent doesn't match up.

All it takes to beat Duke is an above average D, 1 or 2 big men who rebound and a few variables.

FSU just followed the formula. Their extra variables were a poor Duke shooting night and a career game from Kitchen.

It's not like we've not seem this same exact script play out in the majority of Duke losses in the past, ESPECIALLY in conference.

[dcdrumsinc]

Very very similar to 2006, and not because of personel. but because of how 2 guys relied on so heavily. i see duke as a sweet 16 team this year without kyrie. final four lock and most likely NC's with Kyrie. period

[BleedsP287]

We had an inside game in 2006. We need one badly here in 2011.

[cbnaylor]

I wouldn't necessary go that far....but if Duke continues to depend on the three, there will be more losses to come.

[NashvilleDevil]

Let the sky is falling talk commence. I will be back on Saturday for the Virginia post game thread. Everyone enjoy discussing how this team will now lose 10 games and be lucky to get a tourney bid.

[60's Devil]

As Dick Vitale said, "No post presence at all."
Anybody know how to contact Tyler Adams?

[TheRob8801]

Very very similar to 2006, and not because of personel. but because of how 2 guys relied on so heavily. i see duke as a sweet 16 team this year without kyrie. final four lock and most likely NC's with Kyrie. period

It's sad AND a true testament to recruiting when a single player is the obvious difference between a "good" team and a "great" one.

[ajgoodfella7]

Well, at least we probably got Leonard Hamilton another contract extension...

[anon]

The Plumlees need a lot of work or need to be benched in favor of Josh Hairston. The rest of the team just had an off night.

[_Gary]

Not a lot to say. This was the game that finally made it clear just how much we miss Kyrie. All our offensive deficiencies came glaring through. Without a solid PG that can break teams down and get to the basket we really shouldn't expect only one or two losses. We are going to lose a few more. It just is what it is.

[PSurprise]

I think Nolan needs to go back to the basics a bit and rethink how to run this team. His points were/are great, but he needs to make sure to get everyone involved, or yes, I think this team could turn into a "Watch Noland and Kyle" type of team.

I think Nolan will adjust his game somewhat and look to be more opportunistic with the pass. I think this is a great wake-up call though. Better to be happening in January than in March.

[Bluedevil114]

Dawkins was getting killed all night by Kitchen. The Plumlees did not show up and our three point shooting for two-thirds of the game was just terrible. We settled for all jump shots and when the do not fall you lose to an inferior team like FSU. Too many turnovers by Smith and Curry and that is a losing formula.

Great second half from Singler tonight.

I feel very bad for Virgina on Saturday.

[cptnflash]

That was about par for the course. Given the utter lack of inside presence, this team will not be able to shoot this poorly (and this frequently) from 3 and still manage to win.

Predictions:

We will still win the ACC regular season.

We will make the final game of the ACC tournament (final game is a coin flip).

We will make it to the second weekend of the NCAA tournament (making the Final Four is possible but unlikely).

Unless either of the following happens:

1) Kyrie comes back at 100% full strength and effectiveness, in which case our perimeter advantage could become so overwhelming that our inside deficiencies might not matter.

2) One of the Plumlees has a Zoubek moment and suddenly becomes a good basketball player (extremely unlikely in my view, but I didn't see Zoub's transformation coming so I have to admit it's at least possible).

[grossbus]

this was almost predictable. we have not been shooting well, with singular exceptions, and tonight we could not get the defensive job done.

i am confident we will return to more comfortable levels.

[DukieInBrasil]

FSU has Duke's #, that's all there is to it. Duke came out like they didn't care about the game, but FSU was on fire. Duke's mistake was to let FSU shoot the ball pretty well early and get the confidence off that. Singler came alive in the 2nd half but he was a zombie in the first half. I was not impressed by anyone's performance, outside of Kyle's 2nd half.
Take the loss, learn the lessons and move on.

[DukeHoopsGuru]

They didn't have 1 last year to be honest. Zoubs was an offensive rebounder. What they did have was 3rd cog in Scheyer. This team has more offensive potential than 2006, but Shelden cancels that out on the D out. It's 2006 part 2 unless that toe heals up.

[HateCarolina]

Let the sky is falling talk commence. I will be back on Saturday for the Virginia post game thread. Everyone enjoy discussing how this team will now lose 10 games and be lucky to get a tourney bid.

Very well said...people the world is not coming to an end. Michael Jordan nor Dean Smith nor Roy Williams are President....the recession is over....and we still have a very good team which will win plenty more games...

[cbnaylor]

Duke will be fine. This will be a learning tool to take into the next practice and games to come. We need to get Mason more looks.

[jipops]

If you are one that is surprised by tonight's result, you really have not paid attention. This had all the makings of a battle judging just from the matchups.

My biggest disappointment is not really the loss itself, but the fact that we played no defense in crunch time in this game. We gave ourselves no chance to win with such poor work on the defensive end.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

We played better in the second half, so I have no ill will towards this loss. It happens....

Three plays stick in my mind...

1.Kinchen's 3 right after we had tied the game. He clanked it off the back rim and it somehow came right back down through the hoop.
2.I believe the game was tied again, or maybe a 2-point margin. Singler got fouled via the body by FSU's big 7-foot goon (who had a couple body fouls that were not called) and there was no call. FSU came back down and Kinchen got a very similar body foul called.
3.Mason got lost on the perimeter doubling Nolan's man and Singleton drained a wide open 3 right after he had returned to the game following his sit on the bench.

[KShip21]

No irving, less than advertised curry (so far), 2 lost plums. This team has no shot at a NC. Especially if one of the big 2 has a mediocre night God forbid a completely off night. One weapon short...

[CLW]

Smith seems to be forcing the issue in ACC play. He is taking some tough/bad shots instead of dishing. I suppose its partly due to him not being a "true PG" but some of the shots he throws up with guys blanketing him when he could easily dish the ball off to an open man have me scratching my head.

What in the world has happened to the Plumlees? We have ZERO post presence right now. Since KI's injury Mason just looks lost out there and Miles appears to be in the "dog house". Neither Plumlee seems to have the mean streak/edge/attitude/anger either. Hoping the light will finally hit them come February/March b/c we are DEFINITELY going to need more than 3 points from those guys.

Singler recovered nicely and kept us in the game in the 2nd half.

[SCMatt33]

I really have to give all the credit to FSU here. I didn't think that someone would beat us this year without Duke "beating themselves," but I really think that FSU just plain locked us down. Despite starting 0-10, Duke didn't have one of those 10% three point nights that can lose a game. Dickie V kept talking about nothing going on inside, but that was due to the lockdown D. Our inside guys just aren't throw it to them and the them score types, and most importantly, pretty much every layup on a drive was contested, making scoring in the paint impossible.

Our defense did a pretty good job in getting some steals to help us get back into it, but unless Duke started making more of the contested shots or FSU missed more average to open looks, I didn't see anything to point to where I could say, "Duke could have done x better regardless of how FSU was playing and won the game."

[Billy Dat]

ACC coaches with any length of tenure typically outcoach K when the talent doesn't match up.

My my, are we already going there?

FSU came out like it was a must win game for them, which it was. We never matched their intensity. Their defense was suffocating, especially on our ball handlers. Yes, I wish we had looked inside a few times, but I saw our bigs trying to post up and not providing very good targets for the catch. FSU is an elite defensive team and it really showed tonight keeping us well below our season average.

Still, playing ugly, we were right there at the end. We never took a lead after our comeback which was significant, and they hit a lot of big shots when we would draw even. Kitchen killed us, and Singleton's 3 when we cut it to 2 late was a back breaker. We also missed a few free throws down the stretch that would have kept more game pressure on them, and they nailed every big FT down the stretch.

It was their night.

[buddy]

We won't lose 10 games in regular season, and we will get a tournament bid, but without an inside game, we will not advance far. This is essentially the same team that won the NCAA minus Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek, and plus Curry. Too much lost, and not enough gained. But the inside play (or lack thereof) is really disappointing, and without Irving, will be limiting. We seem not to be able to execute in the half court, and tournament games are half court games. It's not like this is the first time we have lost at FSU, but we have not made the Final Four losing at FSU.

[dukeblue1206]

Hats off to FSU on the win. For Duke to shoot 31% from the floor and still have a chance to win on the road makes me feel a little better about the loss. It was the first 5 minutes of each half where Duke lost the game IMO. First 5 of the first half we miss just about everything and the first 5 of the second half they made a lot and we played careless. Saturday can't get here fast enough for me to see if Coach K makes any changes. I'm thinking Mason may start and Kyle at the 4. Mason's offense is painful to watch right now but he is playing hard on defense and the boards.

[aav2aav2]

Plumlees were MIA tonight. This season has been, for the most part, a huge disappointment for them. Kyrie going down significantly impacted their performance as they have no traditional low post game. It has been way too long since we had a real big man on our team.

[DukeHoopsGuru]

It's sad AND a true testament to recruiting when a single player is the obvious difference between a "good" team and a "great" one.

Not a fair statement. Take arguably the #1 draft pick off any team and they struggle. Take John Wall of UK last year and they are worse than this Duke team with 1st rounders and "great" recruiting. I think that is an unfair statement. You can't lose a superstar and not expect to take a dip.

[Gewebe14]

2006 was different team. Disagree with most of the comparisons honestly, reddick = smith?? in what way. Anyway, this is last years team without late season Zoubs. If that doesn't change (PLUMLEES) we will be what we were most of last year.

[Fuqua's Finest]

Having Irving show up was the worst thing to happen to this team. They would be better right now if he never came. They forgot how to play basketball with him around and now they are just lost. It's like the days of JJ watching, but with Nolan and Kyle.

Don't jump!!! I'm as disappointed as the next fan, but we are still 15-1. I think every sane person on this board knew we would lose eventually. I just think the teams needs to refocus and find some type of offensive balance. Jacking 20+ 3's a game with 3 post passes isn't going to work. People rag on Mason but he had 14 rebounds, wayyy more than anyone else on our team. He only took 3 shots all game. It's hard to produce when you never get the ball. Mason is not Zoubek. He should not be used a designated rebound and kick-out man. Until we realize there are post players, we will lose more. We have shooters but there will be plenty of off shooting games. We need some post presence and that starts from the outside. Nolan needs to learn how to pass effectively or be permanently moved to the 2. When his driving lanes are shut down, he gets so much out of his game. I love my Devils to death, but we must evolve without Irving.

[jv001]

I hate that we lost this game but I'm not going to throw in the towel for the entire season. Without Kyrie most knew this team was not going undefeated. What I do see is this team needs a lot of work. Without Kyrie, we have no one that can drive the ball except Nolan. We do have some good shooters from the perimeter, but they need to be open to make those shots. They cannot create their own shots. So we can pray Kyrie comes back or go back to the drawing board and get our big men involved in the offense. Mason needs to be stronger in going up with the ball as he missed two easy layups tonight. We fouled their best free throw shooters and over all did not play smart basketball. Next Play! and Go Duke!

[micah75]

Well darn. I added 512 mb ram and deleted a bunch of needless programs so I could have some virtual to watch the espn3, which was before, unwatchable.

FSU has a history of upsetting us, going back 10 years or so. If we had scored more than 70, then we win. But, 61 ain't gonna cut it. Certainly not blaming the team.... we have a huge injury obviously, but still, a couple of players (frontcourt most likely) need to step up in these big games.

[OldPhiKap]

Congratulations to Florida State. They deserved the win.

It's conference play. Now we can end the stupid @#$% about undefeated seasons, etc. and get down to the task at hand.


Next play.


And again, the team that played harder and better deserved to win. Tonight that was FSU at home.

[wtm001]

We shot 28% and still had a chance to win, that's not that bad.

[gofurman]

A road loss to a good team isn't the end of the world, but this is 2006 without Kyrie. It's scary how similar they are.

1. Redick = Smith
2. Williams = Singler
3. McRoberts = Mason (Both overrated white McDonald's AA)
4. Nelson = Dawkins (both 1 dimensional in what they do offensively)
5. Paulus = Curry (both good shooters, good hoops IQ, can't sniff a drive)

Again not the end of the world, but could see a Sweet 16 exit against a team just like this and just like LSU.

Redick = Smith??? Nolan Smith is MUCH more versatile than Reddick... passes, drives, etc. Redick was a better shooter for his career no doubt but Nolan Smith is much more than Redick as a 1.5 guard. Think more Daniel Ewing than Reddick. If it were Redick and Singler instead of Nolan and Singler Duke would not be near as good bc of the need for a PG right now. Nolan fills that slot much better

[DukeGirl4ever]

Someone asked this earlier, but why the lack of minutes for Miles?

I didn't think he played poorly...he just didn't really do anything while he was in there, and I think that's because he wasn't in there long enough.

When both brothers were in the game together, we went on a bit of a run.

[ncexnyc]

A tough loss and the knuckleheads suddenly come out of the woodwork.

[dcdrumsinc]

1. Kyle and Nolan as awesome as they can be, shot selection is a concern. When they finally do get andre or seth the ball, it's usually a rushed, "I better my shots up ASAP," thing from andre or seth.
2. No inside game AT ALL, partially because duke is too perimeter and 3 point happy.
3. Coach K, don't turn into Mike D'antoni...
4. Without #1 in the lineup, duke is average athletically, at best
5. Maybe Coach K should consider some TRUE road games prior to ACC play?
6. Without #1, Duke is down with the rest of the pack and not the most balanced team in the nation at this point.

[Bluedevil114]

A road loss to a good team isn't the end of the world, but this is 2006 without Kyrie. It's scary how similar they are.

1. Redick = Smith
2. Williams = Singler
3. McRoberts = Mason (Both overrated white McDonald's AA)
4. Nelson = Dawkins (both 1 dimensional in what they do offensively)
5. Paulus = Curry (both good shooters, good hoops IQ, can't sniff a drive)

Again not the end of the world, but could see a Sweet 16 exit against a team just like this and just like LSU.

These comparisons are ridiculous. None of the players you have next to each other are even close except for a McRoberts and Mason comparison. The sky is not falling. We lost road games to Wisconsin, Georgetown, NC State and Georgia Tech last season and remember how we thought we would never do anything last year. The only other loss was to Maryland. We will be ok. We have Coach K and he will find his Zoubek and tweak a few things.

[jipops]

I actually think Nolan had a pretty good game in this one. Everyone seems to forget that he continues to play out of his element. He is NOT a point guard but is filling the role out of necessity. Our offense will struggle in many future games. What we should not see is the kind of poor defense we saw tonight, especially at a time where it matters most. The defense between the 10 and 5 minute marks of the 2nd half lost us this game.

[SCMatt33]

We won't lose 10 games in regular season, and we will get a tournament bid, but without an inside game, we will not advance far. This is essentially the same team that won the NCAA minus Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek, and plus Curry. Too much lost, and not enough gained. But the inside play (or lack thereof) is really disappointing, and without Irving, will be limiting. We seem not to be able to execute in the half court, and tournament games are half court games. It's not like this is the first time we have lost at FSU, but we have not made the Final Four losing at FSU.

The good news is that we don't have to play AT anyone to make the final four. I'm not really buying "not much gained" unless you honestly think that Dre and Ryan have had zero improvement since the end of last year. We had no inside scoring last year and it didn't hurt us. Sure, we don't rebound as well, but we also get more turnovers and have more scorers than last year's team had.

If it takes the best defensive team in the country, bringing their A game at home to hold us to 61 and win by 5, I'll take my chances.

[CrazieDUMB]

I think this was really the blueprint of how to beat Duke. Duke out rebounded 34-33, but I really feel that stat is a bit misleading. FSU got a ton of second chance points. FSU packed the paint, forced Duke to make outside shots and Duke couldn't convert. If Dre has a half decent game (instead of going 1-8 from 3) this game would be a different story. Overall though, it's hard not to fault our lack of an inside game. 3, 3, and 0 points from MP2, RK, and MP1, respectively. It's going to be hard to win in the tourney if we can't get more than that from our bigs, as we're destined to have a few off nights shooting.

I think this game is going to be a great learning experience. I felt Nolan was forcing too many shots/drives, and we still haven't found ways to get our post play involved. I really think the answer here is to run more set plays designed to set up the post. Without KI drawing double-teams and help side defense for easy dishes, we need to get more creative in the way we use our bigs. Kyle and Nolan will find their points - for us to get better it has to start with some points in the post.

[weezie]

Aw geez, here we go.

Granted, it's a little early for Duke's classic mid-season stinker of a game but do we have to start the dirge now?

Don't suppose the first half of touch fouls on Duke had much to do with it, eh?

[BleedsP287]

More than Kyrie, we need some kind of inside game. That's what was missing. A rebound here or there and a put-back here or there would have helped a lot (and a few less of whatever that play is where we drive, split defenders, and fumble the ball away). We were one dimensional all night and didn't make the successful adjustments we usually do.

Every team has an off night. We're still very good. We aren't number one, but we could get back there if we get a big man to emerge and/or KI back. Helluva good start to the season in any case, it isn't often we go 15-0 to start.

[DukeGirl4ever]

Can we please spell JJ's name right?
Please??

It's a pet peeve of mine. :)

REDICK!

Thanks for letting me blow off some steam!

[TheRob8801]

My my, are we already going there?

You never heard me doubt K's ability or even begin to scoff at his success, but it's almost not even debatable that K can't out-coach a bad match-up without a miracle performance

FSU came out like it was a must win game for them, which it was. We never matched their intensity. Their defense was suffocating, especially on our ball handlers. Yes, I wish we had looked inside a few times, but I saw our bigs trying to post up and not providing very good targets for the catch. FSU is an elite defensive team and it really showed tonight keeping us well below our season average.

Still, playing ugly, we were right there at the end. We never took a lead after our comeback which was significant, and they hit a lot of big shots when we would draw even. Kitchen killed us, and Singleton's 3 when we cut it to 2 late was a back breaker. We also missed a few free throws down the stretch that would have kept more game pressure on them, and they nailed every big FT down the stretch.

It was their night.

In the end, it WAS their night, but it wasn't some strange anomaly. It was to be expected that there would be struggles IF things fall the way they typically due during a Duke loss; poor night shooting 3's and a career performance from an opponent.

[HateCarolina]

I think this was really the blueprint of how to beat Duke. Duke out rebounded 34-33, but I really feel that stat is a bit misleading. FSU got a ton of second chance points. FSU packed the paint, forced Duke to make outside shots and Duke couldn't convert. If Dre has a half decent game (instead of going 1-8 from 3) this game would be a different story. Overall though, it's hard not to fault our lack of an inside game. 3, 3, and 0 points from MP2, RK, and MP1, respectively. It's going to be hard to win in the tourney if we can't get more than that from our bigs, as we're destined to have a few off nights shooting.

I think this game is going to be a great learning experience. I felt Nolan was forcing too many shots/drives, and we still haven't found ways to get our post play involved. I really think the answer here is to run more set plays designed to set up the post. Without KI drawing double-teams and help side defense for easy dishes, we need to get more creative in the way we use our bigs. Kyle and Nolan will find their points - for us to get better it has to start with some points in the post.

That is the most accurate comment/advice I have read yet...I agree with that analysis 100%.

[LSanders]

ACC coaches with any length of tenure typically outcoach K when the talent doesn't match up.


Are you serious or is this supposed to be sarcastic?

Our energy level was down all game ... That led to horrendous 3-pt shooting ... And, coupled with the aforementioned lack of post offense, led to tonight's outcome.

Maybe we need to bring Zoubs back for a few practice sessions, but our post players could use a few "come to Jesus" meetings. One-dimensional teams are, obviously, easier to beat.

[richardjackson199]

Remember that any whiny comments you write will likely be enjoyed by Duke haters who no doubt are flocking here. So whassup Haters? We lost an ACC road game. FSU played better for 40 minutes, wanted it more for 40 minutes, and deserved to win. Congrats to them. Duke will be Duke.

[BobbyFan]

I'm glad we could provide FSU with their 3rd championship in the past 9 years.

[ajgoodfella7]

I actually was thinking people wouldn't be running for the hills already, but then I see people talking about K being out-coached regularly in ACC play, and Kyrie should have never come here, and this Duke team is the same as the 2006 Duke team, and so on and so forth. So, I think I'm just going to sit this one out because some of you guys/girls need a night to cool off.

[Lid]

Like everyone else, I'd have loved some more offensive balance and especially a productive post game. Wondering why Miles didn't get back in the game after the start -- or did he, and I just missed him?

Credit FSU, who played with heart and buckled down for the win. They deserved it tonight, though I wish that wasn't true.

(I've been meaning to ask -- are over-the-back calls a point of de-emphasis this year? There were several by Gregory last game that weren't called, and I saw a few by both teams tonight, also uncalled. The frequency seems to have really dropped from last year.)

[NSDukeFan]

I probably called out a few posters at least once or twice. Yes, I think this Duke is a #1 team and I think will have a #1 seed come tournament time. Yes, no need to worry, though this team isn't as good as I hope it will be at the end of the year. Yes, I still do think Mason will come around and like the fact that he can grab 14 rebounds against a very aggressive team when some are questioning his effort. Nolan and Kyle can carry this team quite far, but I am hoping for continued development for the rest of the team so it can go even further.
Well played FSU, they were the aggressor, played great D and deserved to win.

[jv001]

Our coach is nothing but class. In the post game interview, he did nothing but give FSU credit. Nothing like old roy, making excuses and throwing his players under the bus. Go Duke!

[weezie]

It's sad AND a true testament to recruiting when a single player is the obvious difference between a "good" team and a "great" one.

Not so much a single player but that player in addition to the two seniors this year.

Always need 3 players to win. 3 are impossible to guard.

[Bluedog]

Did we play poorly tonight? Yes. Does that mean the season is over and we have no chance of doing well in the postseason? No. We shot 31% for the game, turned it over 15 times, and still only lost by 5 when FSU was shooting far better than they have in the past. Obviously, they played good D, but we also missed some open shots. What I am concerned about is the fact they outhustled us for loose balls and rebounds. Nolan made some odd decisions which are uncharacteristic, almost trying to force stuff. Kitchen had a great game. It was our first true road game in a hostile environment. Just the perfect storm.

In basketball, sometimes the ball bounces your way, and sometimes it doesn't (both literally and figuratively). They had some lucky bounces including that killer 3 that went way up, and it seems like we missed 3 point blank layups.

I'm not worried about our poor shooting, but the lack of post-play on the offensive and defensive end and get outhustled for loose balls is a bit concerning. However, we had losses like that last year vs. Georgetown and NC St. We looked really pathetic against Georgetown, yet we righted the ship. We have the chance to do that again this season, and if Kyrie comes back, we'll take it up another notch.

Certainly disappointing game. Shouldn't really lose to a team that lost to one of the worst BCS teams in the nation in Auburn. But give them credit; they outplayed us, played good D, and knocked down some tough shots. It seems like K didn't like the way Miles was playing at all - he benched him for quite some time and we definitely need to improve our post play. But the sky isn't falling.

[dukeman28428]

I dislike the loss as much as anyone but this may help us get focused for the remaining part of the season. For sure, we have to get more inside improvement and we cannot live by the 3 as evidenced by tonight. My money is on Coach K to figure out the best combination going forward and LET'S GO DUKE.....the sun will rise and we will move on to the next game. See you at Cameron versus VA on Saturday

[taiw93]

I think the biggest negative change since losing Kyrie has been lack of ball movement. Nolan is a great scorer and a fantastic player, but he really does not distribute the ball well at all. Without Kyrie, we are over-reliant on dribbling and ball screens and not reliant enough on passing (and I don't mean swinging the ball around the perimeter aimlessly). We need to start making that extra pass!

That said, this was just an off game. We are still a very good team, though clearly not the best team in the country. IMO, that honor belongs to either Kansas or Ohio State.

[gofurman]

Having Irving show up was the worst thing to happen to this team. They would be better right now if he never came. They forgot how to play basketball with him around and now they are just lost. It's like the days of JJ watching, but with Nolan and Kyle.

a little harsh here I think. I agree with the fear of "watching" but the key here is also give some credit to FSU - they aren't known for nasty D for nothing. Their D is legit. No 2 ways about it. That's why they will win their share of ACC games... winning some shockers (tonight) and losing some shockers (Auburn.. bc they are awesome on one side of the ball (D) and pretty bad on the other (O). Singleton is the reigning D player of the year lest we forget. They have so many big bodies too with Kreft and James.. good grief if they had Xavier GIbson they are huge

[TheRob8801]

Not a fair statement. Take arguably the #1 draft pick off any team and they struggle. Take John Wall of UK last year and they are worse than this Duke team with 1st rounders and "great" recruiting. I think that is an unfair statement. You can't lose a superstar and not expect to take a dip.

You misunderstood.

It's sad, because it's true.

It's a testament to recruiting, because it's true.

[jkidd31]

After the Miami game this game immediately stuck out as a potential L. FSU gets jacked up for Duke always ('02 and '06 were in my mind before they showed the graphic, also '93), and we were coming off a tough game against Maryland. I told my co-workers last week this one had me worried. I should have cashed my 401K out and taken FSU and the points. That said I don't see us losing again for awhile. FSU is just one of the teams that year in year out causes match up issues for us.

Next Play

[jipops]

A road loss to a good team isn't the end of the world, but this is 2006 without Kyrie. It's scary how similar they are.

1. Redick = Smith
2. Williams = Singler
3. McRoberts = Mason (Both overrated white McDonald's AA)
4. Nelson = Dawkins (both 1 dimensional in what they do offensively)
5. Paulus = Curry (both good shooters, good hoops IQ, can't sniff a drive)

Again not the end of the world, but could see a Sweet 16 exit against a team just like this and just like LSU.

Completely different team than 2006. That team had one guy that could hit from 3 (Paulus became a shooter his soph year). This team has at least 4 guys.

Against MD and FSU we have played the two best defensive teams we will play during the regular season.

[lotusland]

Where are all the people calling out the negative nellies now?? A few of us saw this coming the past few games and we were bashed for speaking our opinions. Do you really still think we are a #1 team?? Still no need to worry? Still think that Mason will come around while giving the piss poor effort he's giving? Nolan and Kyle can only carry this team so far. The heart and fire is not there right now. Let's see how they respond...

No need to panic. We were never going undefeated. This loss was a thing of beauty compared to the NC State loss last year and that worked out OK in the end. KS and OSU aren't dominant. Duke can play with those guys.

[jipops]

Our coach is nothing but class. In the post game interview, he did nothing but give FSU credit. Nothing like old roy, making excuses and throwing his players under the bus. Go Duke!

K was very mild mannered in the post game. I was actually shocked that he thought we played with great effort in the 2nd half. I thought our D stunk it up. Maybe he was referring to the offense picking it up.

He offered no excuses. We just got beat. FSU was better tonight, in every aspect.

[Greg_Newton]

It's not so much that we lost, but how we lost that bothers me.

I know I just need to accept that, for the recent past and foreseeable future, Duke has been and will be primarily a finesse, jump-shooting team. But it's a shame, because I love watching good power basketball and post play. I guess you just take the good with the bad and be thankful we still have K.

But... if Kyle doesn't make a series of ridiculous threes, we're not even in the game at the end. Even when we cut it to 59-58 on Nolan's three, the ball never went inside the three-point line during the entire possession. That just not good basketball. I think I can count on one hand the number of times we made FSU defend the rim today.

As for the result, a lot of people predicted this would be our first loss, no biggie. But it's not fun to see your team get bullied and not really know how to fight back besides chucking up deeper and deeper threes.

[gotoguy]

K said in the presser that it was early and that we will learn from this There's no way to simulate Kitchens or Singleton in practice and Singleton contributed much last summer on the select team and is a great kid.

We played worse last year at NCSU and GT, but Miles and Mason need to step up ala Zoubs if we are to go far in March/April

[TheRob8801]

I actually was thinking people wouldn't be running for the hills already, but then I see people talking about K being out-coached regularly in ACC play, and Kyrie should have never come here, and this Duke team is the same as the 2006 Duke team, and so on and so forth. So, I think I'm just going to sit this one out because some of you guys/girls need a night to cool off.

Krzyzewski is not a god. He is merely one of the best coaches in college basketball history.

Therefore, when the other team has every tool capable of beating Duke and uses it correctly and Duke doesn't have someone step up and have a career game of their own, all it takes is a solid game-plan and consistent execution to out-coach K and get the W.

Maybe you have a different definition of out-coach (maybe I'm merely speaking of being outplayed as a team), but that's mine.

[94duke]

Coach K nailed it in the post-game presser.
He said that we showed up to play, not to fight.
FSU showed up to fight.

[NSDukeFan]

K was very mild mannered in the post game. I was actually shocked that he thought we played with great effort in the 2nd half. I thought our D stunk it up. Maybe he was referring to the offense picking it up.

He offered no excuses. We just got beat. FSU was better tonight, in every aspect.

I agree the D could have been tighter, but I think offensively, the team played with a bit more intensity and didn't get pushed around as much in the second half. Just my impression.

[weezie]

and if Kyrie comes back

I doubt K can even faintly ponder that. How can we expect Kyrie to come back 100% ready even if he is healed? This is probably the longest he has ever gone not playing basketball since he was 9 years old.
Gotta hope our team continues to grow as it is right now.

[BlueDGal]

This hurts....duke losses always due but I felt this one coming on like a bad cold. I thought even if we pulled this one out, and it never felt like we would, then we would lose the next.......i think it helps us really....the players are probably being told to make certain changes and don't really believe in what they are told until a loss slaps them in the face. It makes them re-think what they are doing.....only a loss does that. Watch out cavaliers!!

[jv001]

I think the biggest negative change since losing Kyrie has been lack of ball movement. Nolan is a great scorer and a fantastic player, but he really does not distribute the ball well at all. Without Kyrie, we are over-reliant on dribbling and ball screens and not reliant enough on passing (and I don't mean swinging the ball around the perimeter aimlessly). We need to start making that extra pass!

That said, this was just an off game. We are still a very good team, though clearly not the best team in the country. IMO, that honor belongs to either Kansas or Ohio State.

That Nolan does dribble the ball way too much in setting up the offense. Waste of time to get into our offense. When this happens, sometimes we end up taking a forced shot to beat the shot clock. This is where we could use another ball handler that can penetrate. Maryland and FSU stopped Nolan's penetration and with no post offense, we had trouble setting up an efficient offense. Too many turnovers and too many 3's. But I have confidence Coach K will work on our offense. 24 points in the first half set the stage for this upset. But I'm glad we don't have to rush the court like every team that beats us. We'll be back. Go Duke!

[gofurman]

More than Kyrie, we need some kind of inside game. That's what was missing. A rebound here or there and a put-back here or there would have helped a lot (and a few less of whatever that play is where we drive, split defenders, and fumble the ball away). We were one dimensional all night and didn't make the successful adjustments we usually do.

Every team has an off night. We're still very good. We aren't number one, but we could get back there if we get a big man to emerge and/or KI back. Helluva good start to the season in any case, it isn't often we go 15-0 to start.

a lot of that fumble the ball away is due to FSU - their D really made me think of Butler on the guards last year... so strong at stripping theball.......... but with Chris Singleton waiting in back . NASTY

Did anyone else feel they were watching the 2010 Butler Defense?

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

We lost, that's fine....Without Kyrie, it is obvious that on any day we can lose...

But, how does UNC Greensboro score more points against FSU's defense than we do? The loss doesn't really bother me, but for some reason, that fact does. :rolleyes:

[camion]

I am not surprised by this result. FSU is one of the toughest teams for us to play on the road and has been for years. Before the season I picked this as one of our most likely losses. I am disappointed, but not disheartened. Contratulations to FSU. They played a great game and deserved the win.

I still think we are a top 5 team as I thought we were before the game.

I still think we will get better as the season progresses.

I still think we are the best team in the ACC.

I still think we can make a deep run in the tournament with as good a chance as anyone for an NCAA title.

Why do I think these things? We have plenty of very good players and a world class coach. We'll be fine.

I may be overly optimistic, but I think my expectations will end up being closer to the way the season will unfold than most of what I've read so far in this thread. We'll see.

Bummer of a loss, but not the end of the world.

[Billy Dat]

Krzyzewski is not a god. He is merely one of the best coaches in college basketball history.

Therefore, when the other team has every tool capable of beating Duke and uses it correctly and Duke doesn't have someone step up and have a career game of their own, all it takes is a solid game-plan and consistent execution to out-coach K and get the W.

Maybe you have a different definition of out-coach (maybe I'm merely speaking of being outplayed as a team), but that's mine.

OK, but which coach does your logic not apply to?

[GLTBD]

I think the biggest negative change since losing Kyrie has been lack of ball movement. Nolan is a great scorer and a fantastic player, but he really does not distribute the ball well at all. Without Kyrie, we are over-reliant on dribbling and ball screens and not reliant enough on passing (and I don't mean swinging the ball around the perimeter aimlessly). We need to start making that extra pass!

That said, this was just an off game. We are still a very good team, though clearly not the best team in the country. IMO, that honor belongs to either Kansas or Ohio State.

and they too will lose a few games.

[Saratoga2]

FSU played hard for 40 minutes and were very aggressive rebounding. I haven't seen the numbers, but it seemed we were soundly out rebounded. They also got a lot of offense from Kitchen and Singleton. The defense on them wasn't horrible, they just hit tough shots.

Mason did the best job in the rebounding department for us, but there was essentially no offense from him. Even a chippie from 6 inches was beyond him tonight. Lacking any inside scoring from our bigs was known to be a weakness, and it continued to show up tonight.

I thought the turnovers by our team really hurt. Dawkins, Singler, Curry and Nolan all had their share. The FSU defense really bothered us. Guys tried to dribble through a defender and their quick hands turned us over numerous times. My guess is we had something like 20 TO's

We shot a lot of threes and were way off for a much of the game. Both Nolan and Kyle tried to shoulder most of the burden, and for the team to be successful they have to. They got 39 between them and that was not bad, but sometimes they need to think of involving others rather than forcing the ball. The decision making needs to be better. Curry and Dawkins each had 8, but we got only three points inside from our bigs.


Our end of game execution was poor. Curry got the ball with a chance to even the game but he tried to dribble through two defenders rather than passing to an open Nolan. Singler took a very long 3 and Nolan rushed a shot. I though we had a chance, but the poor execution at the end was not getting it done.

Seeing Scheyer in the stands was nice. We needed someone like him to make good decisions. Kyrie would have helped a lot, but alas he may not come back this year.

[terrih]

Coach K nailed it in the post-game presser.
He said that we showed up to play, not to fight.
FSU showed up to fight.


Agree- i thought this summed it up very well. And I agree with the person who said he was pretty calm- he was. He seemed to know this was coming almost... That said, the team can work to get better- that is what it is about. LGD!

[tbyers11]

There are exactly 2 players on this team who have played major starting roles before this season in Nolan and Kyle. Everyone else is still adjusting to their increased roles in the increased intensity of the ACC. Everyone is adjusting to their roles on a team without Kyrie against "good" teams. There is a lot of room for improvement, particularly in the post. Hopefully it occurs and Duke improves over the next months. I still think we go 13-3, 12-4 at worst in the ACC.

Kyrie was great and he made us the odds-on-favorite for the championship. Losing him hurts big time. No team in the country this year losing a 1st or 2nd team AA, particularly a point guard, isn't going to be lessened. I think we are still definitely one of the top 5 teams in the country and have a damn good shot at the Final 4 depending on matchups.

As for tonight, FSU came out physical and knocked us back. Their length and athleticism makes them IMO the best defensive team in the country and a bad matchup for us. We didn't block out well and weren't strong with the ball on offense. We relied on the 3 too much and didn't drive to draw fouls. This was FSU's season tonight. After losing to Auburn last week, there was pretty much no way they make the NCAA without winning this game and they played like it. Kitchen hit some TOUGH shots late and got lucky as hell on that 3 that hit the back rim and fell in. Hats off to the Noles for bringing it tonight.

Duke has been fairly sloppy the last few games with turnovers, fundamentals and loose balls and it finally led to a loss tonight. The margin for error with this team is much smaller without Kyrie and we have to improve on those things. Sometimes, no matter how hard you are thinking and practicing, it takes a loss to refocus the intensity and drive. Hopefully this game serves the purpose and teaches the team what kind of intensity and focus you have to bring every night even in a weakened ACC.

[gofurman]

Anyone know why Miles got no time tonight?

THat put it at a 6 man rotation... roughly

[BigZ]

A road loss to a good team isn't the end of the world, but this is 2006 without Kyrie. It's scary how similar they are.

1. Redick = Smith
2. Williams = Singler
3. McRoberts = Mason (Both -edited- McDonald's AA)
4. Nelson = Dawkins (both 1 dimensional in what they do offensively)
5. Paulus = Curry (both good shooters, good hoops IQ, can't sniff a drive)

Again not the end of the world, but could see a Sweet 16 exit against a team just like this and just like LSU.

This team has more all around talent but that team had two big men better than anything we have inside now.

[azzefkram]

I don't understand the negativism toward the Brothers Plumlee. Mason was 1 for 3 with 14 boards. If you want an inside game, pass the ball to the guy when he's on the block and give him room to work. A resounding majority of the time the Brothers Plumlee receive the ball at the 3-point line or in traffic.

[1 24 90]

Overall, an awful performance. The team seemed a little rattled/unsure.

I am concerned about NC State next Wednesday but for now I plan on reminsicing about the 25 wins that preceded tonight and hoping that my flight on Saturday to Durham goes as scheduled and I can enjoy the first win in a new winning streak.

Go Duke!

[94duke]

FSU played hard for 40 minutes and were very aggressive rebounding. I haven't seen the numbers, but it seemed we were soundly out rebounded. They also got a lot of offense from Kitchen and Singleton. The defense on them wasn't horrible, they just hit tough shots.

Mason did the best job in the rebounding department for us, but there was essentially no offense from him. Even a chippie from 6 inches was beyond him tonight. Lacking any inside scoring from our bigs was known to be a weakness, and it continued to show up tonight.

I thought the turnovers by our team really hurt. Dawkins, Singler, Curry and Nolan all had their share. The FSU defense really bothered us. Guys tried to dribble through a defender and their quick hands turned us over numerous times. My guess is we had something like 20 TO's

We shot a lot of threes and were way off for a much of the game. Both Nolan and Kyle tried to shoulder most of the burden, and for the team to be successful they have to. They got 39 between them and that was not bad, but sometimes they need to think of involving others rather than forcing the ball. The decision making needs to be better. Curry and Dawkins each had 8, but we got only three points inside from our bigs.


Our end of game execution was poor. Curry got the ball with a chance to even the game but he tried to dribble through two defenders rather than passing to an open Nolan. Singler took a very long 3 and Nolan rushed a shot. I though we had a chance, but the poor execution at the end was not getting it done.

Seeing Scheyer in the stands was nice. We needed someone like him to make good decisions. Kyrie would have helped a lot, but alas he may not come back this year.

We out-rebounded them 38 - 35.
We got 71% of available def rebounds to their 64%.
We got 36% of available off rebounds to their 29%.

http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=7008&bView=0

[jv001]

I thought this thread was about my St. Louis Cardinals pitching rotation. I don't know why Miles did not get much pt. It could be because we were being out rebounded badly at the beginning of the game. By the way, that zone defense didn't last long. Go Duke!

[dukeballboy88]

miles and mason combined for 3 points tonight.

[Greg_Newton]

We're going to need to figure out how to score more than 16 points off of two-pointers. Whenever you miss twenty-four threes and make only eight twos, your offense is getting a little stagnant and one-dimensional.

[Billy Dat]

Looking at the ESPN box score, a few things jump out...

-We may have played 8 guys, but he basically went with Nolan, Kyle, Andre, Mason, Seth the whole game. Kelly played 15 mins, but the rest were 30+. Miles only played 6 mins, I guess K didn't like his early play.

-Mason pulled down 14 boards, but only took 3 shots. He missed a few chippies. While I agree that the guards have to try and help him get going, he needs to get himself going more - try and get some putbacks, etc.

-The rebounding story was pretty even, but I am sure others agree that it seemed like FSU corralled all the really big ones. We picked up a lot based on their poor first half shooting.

[TheRob8801]

Anyone know why Miles got no time tonight?

THat put it at a 6 man rotation... roughly

Because that's what K does in games like this.

Why does this still get questioned?

[Finnerator]

Dawkins was a huge liability on both ends of the floor......there were atleast two times that he literally had the ball taken away from him without any resistance. He caused our defense to break down too many times to count which led to wide open shots....I was disappointed with many things tonight but he really STUCK OUT in a bad way.....his body language and decision making was horrendous. and more importantly this was a conference game for men........instead of rising to the occasion....he looked scared.......as did curry. lastly,because FSU didn't fear them driving at all, they cherry picked off of them to help on Nolan and Kyle when they drove the basketball into the post....Mason had a good game on the boards but was doing alot of rebounding against several FSU players that were crashing the boards tonight

[jipops]

That said, this was just an off game. We are still a very good team, though clearly not the best team in the country. IMO, that honor belongs to either Kansas or Ohio State.

I don't agree that this was just an off game. Don't minimize what FSU accomplished here. They are one of the top defensive teams in the nation along with Maryland. It isn't coincidence that our recent offensive struggles have coincided with playing those two teams.

They shredded us because they were quicker and far more powerful around the basket. Singleton and Kitchen were matchup problems for us.

[BlueintheFace]

I don't understand the negativism toward the Brothers Plumlee. Mason was 1 for 3 with 14 boards. If you want an inside game, pass the ball to the guy when he's on the block and give him room to work. A resounding majority of the time the Brothers Plumlee receive the ball at the 3-point line or in traffic.

I think a lot of it has to do with the little things he doesn't do or does wrong (tries to block shots he shouldn't rather than boxing out, slow on defensive rotations, almost never boxes out and just tries to outjump everybody, etc...)

Low IQ mistakes tend to upset people a lot more than other mistakes. It also becomes even more frustrating because of the flashes of brilliance exhibited.

[Utley]

I'd like to the team for an amazing 25 game streak - it was a helluva ride!

The beauty of a basketball season is that it reveals who/what you are at that point in time. Like all things in life, Duke's season will depend on how they learn and respond (along with the progress of a certain toe you may be aware of).

I have a lot of faith that we'll get the best this group has to offer - and that we'll really like the outcome.

[jv001]

We out-rebounded them 38 - 35.
We got 71% of available def rebounds to their 64%.
We got 36% of available off rebounds to their 29%.

http://www.scacchoops.com/ViewHDGame.asp?hSchedule=7008&bView=0

I have not seen the boxscore but I would say that Mason and Kyle had the majority of our boards. Go Duke!

[Richard Berg]

Wondering why Miles didn't get back in the game after the start -- or did he, and I just missed him?
Me too. As their big men manhandled us and Mason kept making mental errors (loose ball fouls, getting torched defensively), I kept yelling at Dickie V to shutup about [misc anecdote] and tell me what the heck happened to MP1. Miles seemed a much better choice for his physical strength and relative lack of freshman mistakes. Came here specifically to find out...but sounds like DBR doesn't know either. Must've ruffled some feathers in practice.

PS: I don't think he started. IIRC it was Kyle-Nolan-Dre-Seth-Kelly.

[1 24 90]

Dawkins was a huge liability on both ends of the floor......there were atleast two times that he literally had the ball taken away from him without any resistance. He caused our defense to break down too many times to count which led to wide open shots....I was disappointed with many things tonight but he really STUCK OUT in a bad way.....his body language and decision making was horrendous. and more importantly this was a conference game for men........instead of rising to the occasion....he looked scared.......as did curry. lastly,because FSU didn't fear them driving at all, they cherry picked off of them to help on Nolan and Kyle when they drove the basketball into the post....Mason had a good game on the boards but was doing alot of rebounding against several FSU players that were crashing the boards tonight

I agree. I think the youth and inexperience of Curry & Dawkins showed tonight. Luckily, there is plenty of time for them to grow into their roles.

[wtm001]

Yahoo Sports updated the shooting percentage to 31%, I apologize.

[tbyers11]

Me too. As their big men manhandled us, I kept yelling at Dickie V to shutup about [misc anecdote] and tell me what the heck happened to MP1. Came here specifically to find out...but sounds like DBR doesn't know either. Must've ruffled some feathers in practice.

PS: I don't think he started. IIRC it was Kyle-Nolan-Dre-Seth-Kelly.

Miles did start. Dre did not

[BigZ]

The only reason we are all really depressed here is b/c some of us believed the team would go undefeated. We can still win the title. Remember this team right now is better than the team we had last year that won the title.

Look at the good side, Duke played awful and still almost won a road ACC game. I know the conference is down but if you can play that crappy and still almost win you have a lot of talent and are a very good team. I think the club will rebound. I wouldn't want to be UVA right now.

[94duke]

I have not seen the boxscore but I would say that Mason and Kyle had the majority of our boards. Go Duke!

Kyle had 8.
Mason had 14!

[mikegismynewhero]

i didnt even bother to look at the final score so i see it here and you can imagine my surprise when i saw it was only a 5 point loss..i figured it was much worse

[Son of Mojo]

Wow, there's a lot of prospective Chicken Little's who've popped up on here.......one loss is NOT the end of this season. Geez. We were outplayed, had several shots just miss, and they had some drop. Anything that happened on the rim, rest assured, was dropping for them and missing for us. That's part of the game. We need the Plumlees and Ryan to step up and give some kind of post presence on BOTH ends of the floor and need to make smarter decisions with the ball. As well as Kyle played in the 2nd half, that last 30 foot three he took was truly unnecessary to take. To paraphrase what was said earlier, I'd hate to be Virginia Saturday. NEXT.

[azzefkram]

I think a lot of it has to do with the little things he doesn't do or does wrong (tries to block shots he shouldn't rather than boxing out, slow on defensive rotations, almost never boxes out and just tries to outjump everybody, etc...)

Low IQ mistakes tend to upset people a lot more than other mistakes. It also becomes even more frustrating because of the flashes of brilliance exhibited.

14 boards... he must have boxed someone out. I think his D is on par with the rest of the team's though he did get schooled on that up and under by Shannon. Many times his man scores because he's had to rotate to stop a drive.

[taiw93]

Assuming Kyrie is done for the year (which I hope and believe is not the case), these are the things we need to do in order to make the Final Four this year, IMO.
1. Move the ball better Nolan needs to look to distribute more, especially when we drives. He's a great scorer and player, but at times he puts his head down to drive and seems dead set on shooting the ball, no matter who else comes open.It seems that since Kyrie's injury, we have not been making the "extra pass."
2. Run more curl screens for shooters It seemed to me that most of our screens tonight were at the top of the key. I'd like to see more screens set in the key, setting up Kyle, Dre, and Seth to use the screener to get open for corner threes.
3. Run more plays for the Plumlees I know they haven't played well offensively and blah, blah, blah. However, when was the last time we've seen a designed oop? Btw, was it just me, or did Mason play pretty well defensively tonight?
4. Diversify the offense I don't think Nolan and Kyle are good enough to carry this team alone. I do think they should dominate the ball slightly less, giving other players a chance to score and create. I liked, for example, what I saw from seth off the dribble tonight.

That said, we're still a very good team! Lighten up, y'all! IMO, we are the #3 team in the country, behind Kansas and OSU. Syracuse is #4.

[diveonthefloor]

The next two practices will be the most intense of the season.

If I were K, although he'll never do it, I would "think" about starting Tyler and/or Josh on Saturday. Just to send a message.

[omahadukefan]

Because that's what K does in games like this.

Why does this still get questioned?

I don't think it is fair to say this is what K does in games like this. I don't think he generally freezes out his starting post player for the vast majority of the 2nd half. I get it that he typically shortens the bench in tight games, but usually not to that extent with a starter. I think the question of why Miles saw basically no time is a valid one.

[BigZ]

The next two practices will be the most intense of the season.

If I were K, although he'll never do it, I would "think" about starting Tyler and/or Josh on Saturday. Just to send a message.

I'd also consider playing Kyle more at the 4 too. This team could use some help down low on the offensive side. My lineup would be: Smith-Dawkins-Curry-Kyle-Miles.

[jv001]

tells me alot as to our poor play and I'm not calling anyone out, but Curry and Dre had probably their worse game at the same time. Curry 32 mins and Dre 29 mins but they combined for 2-14 on three pointers. They had 0 assists and 4 tos. Can't be too negative about Mason's play. He had 14 rebounds and did not receive the ball in the low post all night. He set screens as he was supposed to do. However he did miss two layups that were costly. Kyle and Nolan played well, but had 8 tos between them. Next Play! Go Duke!

[BlueDevilCorvette!]

I'm not waving a white flag at this point in the season, heck, it was just one game. The
players will remember this loss and how it felt. There is much basketball left to be played.
Duke takes everybody best shot. Yes, FSU won and it was their national championship game
but they will return to being less than stellar tomorrow while Duke will improve.

[HateCarolina]

Because that's what K does in games like this.

Why does this still get questioned?

Man someone must have pissed in your corn flakes this morning...did your dog run away? Every post I have seen from you tonight has been negative with plenty of them taking shots at K and his coaching....do you think he's become the second winningest coach by accident. Sorry to call you out, but your comments seem off from my POV. We lost, FSU won, and as others have said the sun will come up tomorrow.

Now I really do hope someone has some insight on why Plumlee played so little especially when we needed some kind of spark on the inside.

[94duke]

My quick thoughts:

Defense: We need to defend the post better. Mental lapses by several of the guys hurt us.

Offense: We need to get the ball in the paint. We can't just pass the ball around the perimeter. The ball needs to go into the post with a pass or dribble penetration. The bigs don't need to score a lot, but they must be involved in the offense.

Where I would really like to see them improve on offense is setting screens. Most of their screens are poor, and they make no contact with the person they are supposed to be screening. Mason's best screen resulted in a Nolan 3 towards the end of the game. Unfortunately most of his screens are more of a show. All of the bigs need to watch "tape" of Zoubs setting screens last year. He was awesome at it. I can't help but wonder if we would have gotten a few better looks with some better screens.

Intensity: We came out with no fire. FSU did. Coach K said in the post-game presser that we showed up to play but not to fight. FSU showed up to fight. We have to start the game at a high level not wait for the last 15 minutes.

[Bluedog]

I don't think it is fair to say this is what K does in games like this. I don't think he generally freezes out his starting post player for the vast majority of the 2nd half. I get it that he typically shortens the bench in tight games, but usually not to that extent with a starter. I think the question of why Miles saw basically no time is a valid one.

Miles saw no time because in the 6 minutes he did play, he played terribly and made some poor decisions. He missed defensive assignments and couldn't rebound the ball. Coach K takes it on a game by game basis and plays the players he thinks gives his team the best chance to win. In his assessment, Miles wasn't going to do that tonight, so he went with other guys. (I'm not saying Miles is a terrible player, just that he didn't have it tonight.)

[jv001]

Miles saw no time because in the 6 minutes he did play, he played terribly and made some poor decisions. Coach K takes it on a game by game basis and plays the players he thinks gives his team the best chance to win. In his assessment, Miles wasn't going to do that tonight, so he went with other guys. (I'm not saying Miles is a terrible player, just that he didn't have it tonight.)

I think Coach K didn't like the way Miles was playing defense and rebounding at the beginning of the game. But only Coach K knows for sure why Miles did not play very much. It could be that he was banking on our guards making a good percentage of their three pointers. Miles is our best bet to make a basket near the goal. Mason is too timid at this point in his career. Go Duke!

[Chris Randolph]

I'm basing the years in the subject title on when the national tourney is...

I've seen the 06/11 comparisons: disagree. In 06 we had a guy to dominate the paint. And I'd take this years team, saying that.....

I think this years team is very similar to the 2009 edition Blue Devils. Zero production inside and a team that lives and dies by the jumpshot with no true point guard. I am not over reacting after one loss, this team is going to get better and has much to learn (aside from Kyle and Nolan, a lot of inexperience). But I'm also a realist and without Kyrie, this team will be very hard pressed to make it to Houston.

[jipops]

My quick thoughts:

Defense: We need to defend the post better. Mental lapses by several of the guys hurt us.


I would venture to guess that 90% of FSU's shots in the 2nd half were 10ft in.

[gofurman]

Because that's what K does in games like this.
Why does this still get questioned?

sort of - but usually it's 7 guys or so. thus my question

[BigZ]

I would venture to guess that 90% of FSU's shots in the 2nd half were 10ft in.

true but i think the turning point was after Dawkins made the 3 foul shots to tie it up FSU made some lucky 3 where it hit the front of the rim then went straight up in the air and through the basket.

[Rudy]

Trying to think of something positive to say about the team's overall performance . . . We shot 75% from the FT line!

Two shaky games in a row from Nolan as the point. Thornton maybe should get more time there and let Nolan be the scoring/shooting #2 guard.

[InSpades]

Duke didn't shoot well but I don't think we can blame the loss on our shooting. Our offense just looked completely lost out there. We took a lot of tough shots because if we didn't there would have been shot clock violations. When Kyle sat after his 2nd foul the offense literally looked like they didn't know what they were doing at all. With Kyle in the game it didn't look much better. A lot of that is due to the athleticism and hard-nosed defense that FSU played. I think it was a tough matchup in that our bigs were mostly useless on the offensive end, yet the smaller lineup had a hard time against bigger and more athletic players. Duke needs to find a way to get easier shots on the offensive end. This team can't rebound or play defense as good as it needs to in order to win without being great offensively.

What has happened to Miles? People will say the Plumlees were lost out there but Mason pulled down 14 boards and played 32 minutes. Could he have played better? Of course, but he atleast contributed. Miles started and played 6 minutes? I don't remember him doing anything particularly wrong out there. Ryan just doesn't seem like the "5" to play w/ the small lineup.

I think going forward we might see even more of the smaller lineup out there. I'd also like to see what Josh Hairston can provide. Kelly and the Plumlees have to produce more for the number of minutes they are getting. Combined they were 2 for 8 from the floor tonight.

Not the end of the world. Kyrie coming back would certainly be a blessing, but even without him this team can find it's way. Interesting that the "small lineup" seems to be gone to more and more even without Kyrie around.

[-bdbd]

FSU played hard for 40 minutes and were very aggressive rebounding. I haven't seen the numbers, but it seemed we were soundly out rebounded. They also got a lot of offense from Kitchen and Singleton. The defense on them wasn't horrible, they just hit tough shots.

Mason did the best job in the rebounding department for us, but there was essentially no offense from him. Even a chippie from 6 inches was beyond him tonight. Lacking any inside scoring from our bigs was known to be a weakness, and it continued to show up tonight.

I thought the turnovers by our team really hurt. Dawkins, Singler, Curry and Nolan all had their share. The FSU defense really bothered us. Guys tried to dribble through a defender and their quick hands turned us over numerous times. My guess is we had something like 20 TO's

We shot a lot of threes and were way off for a much of the game. Both Nolan and Kyle tried to shoulder most of the burden, and for the team to be successful they have to. They got 39 between them and that was not bad, but sometimes they need to think of involving others rather than forcing the ball. The decision making needs to be better. Curry and Dawkins each had 8, but we got only three points inside from our bigs.

Our end of game execution was poor. Curry got the ball with a chance to even the game but he tried to dribble through two defenders rather than passing to an open Nolan. Singler took a very long 3 and Nolan rushed a shot. I though we had a chance, but the poor execution at the end was not getting it done.

Overall I am not concerned, as this gets that silly "undefeated season" monkey off of our backs. It'll serve to focus this team some too, as they've seemed to wander a bit -- with regard to intensity and aggressiveness -- in the last couple/few games. Look for more fire to come soon especially from the younger guys, particularly Dawkins and Curry, who seemed to played a bit tentatively tonight.

I agree with almost everything Saratoga said above, and highlighted some key takeaways. FSU really came to battle, and did so for 40 whole minutes. They played very good D - we may not see any better this year. Singleton will be playing in the Association next year, some of those long buckets in the second half just killed us. But I actually thought Kitchen hurt us more. Kitchen seemed to carry their offense for long stretches, especially with Singleton out. Some of those circus shots were incredible (and very lucky!).

We NEED some interior offense to keep defenses honest on the perimeter. I expect to see some set plays in the next few games, early on, to get the bigs more engaged. Especially in the first half we settled for (often contested) threes early in the shot clock, when someone else was open closer in or we simply could have passed around some more. And the Singler long three with about 30 seconds to go (?) really wasn't necessary. But we just settled for waaay too many threes, and I expect that to get firmly addressed by K in the coming games. Our offense is better than that - we don't NEED that many 3-shots, especially early.

Our end-game wasn't great either (though give them credit for fighting back into it from about the 15-minute mark in the 2nd half until the final minute or two) -- possibly b/c all of the energy we'd used up: (1) Coming back from an 11-point deficit, and (2) The drain of playing in front of a raucus crowd like that.

The sky is most certainly NOT falling. A loss (or two or three) was fairly inevitable. We will learn from this and get better. And the schedule isn't all that harsh in the next two weeks. And we are still one of the Final Four favorites. Now, breath!! :D

[Neals384]

Trying to think of something positive to say about the team's overall performance . . . We shot 75% from the FT line!

Yes, but we missed 3 free throws in the last couple minutes. Making even two of those would have changed the final minute strategy.

That said, give the Sems credit for playing a great game. Kitchen was money, Singleton is the real deal, and the supporting cast all played well.

For Duke, I want to stick up for Mason. I thought his defense was much better tonight than against MD. Not just the 14 boards but his positioning in general was better (but not on the final 3 pointer by Singleton, as another posted pointed out).

[msdukie]

2011 = 2011

[SoCalDukeFan]

We lost Zoubek, Thomas and Scheyer from last year's team. Zoubek was great the last half of the season or so. Lance played great D and got key rebounds. Jon made himself into a point guard.

This year, without Kyrie, we are hurting. Nolan is forced to be the primary ball handler and is unwilling to give up being a primary scorer. No one has replaced Zoubek or Lance inside.

Andre is better than last year and Seth is an addition but they don't replace what was lost inside or at the point.

With Kyrie, Nolan can play his natural position and things get a lot better.

We still have the best coach and two senior leaders. This game I think showed what we've got to do. Better inside play and better ball distribution. Can we do it?

SoCal

[Dr. Tina]

I knew this one was going to be a loss halfway through the 2nd half. FSU came to fight with good defense and an offense that was working tonight. We came out cold and had to work hard to get back into the game in the 2nd half. We tied them up multiple times and couldn't get over the hump That's never a good sign, and, a few times, they would regain the lead with a little bit of luck. In particular, I'm thinking of that FSU 3 that bounced off the rim high in the air and swooshed through the hoop. It is said that Coach K talks about the "Basketball gods" and I felt that they were on FSU's side tonight. We've been the beneficiary of the gods many times, but tonight the ball didn't bounce our way.

In terms of specific things I think need to worked out...

Nolan vacillates between playing within himself (good) and then trying to do too much (bad). He's the captain, the leader, and, I believe, feels a tremendous responsibility for shouldering the team. Obviously, Nolan has improved drastically from when he was a sophomore running the show, but his first inclination is to be a scorer. So, he looks to drive more than he looks to get his teammates the ball. When he's playing within himself, I think he makes good decisions, but I think his effectiveness dissipates when he starts pushing it. I agree with other posters who believe Nolan is dribbling the ball far too much. He seems to take up a good 20 seconds sometimes just dribbling around the perimeter. He doesn't even pass it to anyone. That's a problem. How hard can you make the defense work if you're just standing there? Then, when he does drive, his natural instincts take over and he looks to score. There were 2-3 instances tonight where I thought he got himself into a hot mess driving wise and had nowhere to go or didn't have awareness of who to kick the ball out to. This is something he needs to work on...learning balance. Opponents know Nolan is Duke's #1 scoring option right now and they're swarming him. Nolan has recognize this and adjust accordingly.

To help Nolan, I would really like to see K experiment with Tyler Thornton more. I thought he did a great job in the MD game, and I think he could relieve Nolan a bit by bringing the ball up. Tyler doesn't necessarily have to score like crazy; he just needs to protect the ball, get guys involved, and play tenacious D.

Kyle's been slow to warm-up in the games. I feel like he's not very involved in the offense outside of shooting the 3. In the MD game, he was better scoring-wise because he was making drives to the basket. Kyle has to help Nolan out more with driving to the basket because they are the best at getting in the paint and making something happen, whether it's a basket, drawing a foul, whatever.

Dre and Seth's handle on the ball is somewhat suspect. Someone said they liked what they saw of Curry dribbling into the paint tonight. I disagree - I felt his handle on the ball was poor when he tried to dribble and curl around a defender. I think he was stripped both times. Dre just seemd very off in general.

Mason's rebounding, but suffering from not having Kyrie there to create for him. Nolan and Co. are not effective in getting him the ball. Mason seems to have a hard time getting his own offense going unless it's out in the open floor or something. He was even having a hard time with putbacks and chippies tonight. For someone with his talent level, that needs to improve. If Mason can become more effective scoring wise and continue to rebound well, then we'll have a decent post presence.

I'm not sure why Miles was in the doghouse tonight, but I would have thought K might use him a bit more. I think Ryan is getting his minutes because his basketball IQ is better and he offers a bit more offensively. I still feel the Plumlees and Kelly have to get better at rebounding the ball. Opponents are outhustling them and getting better position. FSU fell short in the rebounding margin, but their rebounds resulted in more scoring opportunities, so their rebounds were "felt" more than ours.

Personally, I don't think the sky is falling, but I do think the team has a tremendous amount to work on. My guess is that this FSU game will be one of those games that K and Co. will credit as having been some kind of turning point for them in the season, or, at the very least, a learning experience that they grew from. All hope is not loss as long as we make adjustments and keep getting better.

Next Play!

[A-Tex Devil]

And panic sets in. If we start 2-9 from 3, we win. If Dawkins hits 2 more shots we win. This game, on its own, doesn't worry me much at all.

We were going to lose a game like this even with Kyrie at some point this year.

That being said, the Plumlees are missing, and that's troubling. They clearly miss Kyrie, and while I want the ball in Nolan's hands as much as possible, he clearly doesn't look for Mason in the same way that Kyrie did. When Curry is off his game like he was tonight I wouldn't mind seeing more of Tyler just to run a true point guard and a half court offense that might get them involved in the middle part of the game. I am not sure Curry adds much at all if he's not hitting, and Nolan off the ball a bit would keep teams honest.

[g-money]

It's just one loss after 15 wins, so it's important not to overreact. But for what it's worth, here are a couple observations on how we can get better from here:

1. Whether it's Andre, Seth, Miles, Mason, or Ryan, we need a third scorer to emerge who can create offense (i.e., do more than hit open shots) and put up 10-15 points per game on a consistent basis. It's tough to beat a defensively skilled opponent like Fla. St. if you can only count on two players to create offensively. Last year it was Jon that filled this third scorer role, while this year Kyrie was obviously up to the task until he got hurt. With Kyrie out for the foreseeable future, the opportunity is ripe for one of these other guys to step up.

2. I actually thought Dickie V had a rare moment of clarity when he said near the end of the game that Duke needs to find a way to generate some points in the post. Last year we won it all without a real offensive option in the post, but that was an exception to the general rule in basketball that you need a post presence to keep defenses honest in the half court. This is particularly important as we transition from a running team to a half court team in Kyrie's absence.

IMO, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if we were to just dump the ball in to Miles and Mason 5-10 times combined each game and try to let them figure out how to translate the moves they make in practice to real games. I understand the value of each possession, especially in ACC play, but I think the Plumlees need to be given a little bit longer leash (in much the same way Kyle and Nolan are) if we want them to gain confidence and become more effective this season. It's at least an experiment worth trying while the season is young. (And also, maybe Coach K can have them practice with pugil sticks American Gladiator-style to toughen them up a bit. :) )

In any case, it's obviously not time to panic. With two of the best seniors in America we'll almost certainly go deep in March. But it's probably fair to say that the other guys need to start stepping up if we want to play in April.

[Dr. Tina]

About Curry....

In the MD game, wasn't Curry's effectiveness helped, in part, by Thornton coming into the line-up at the same time? I can think of one 3 that Tyler totally set Curry up on the wing, but I thought there might have been more instances than just the one.

[fgb]

i sort of just want to say, take it easy, you guys.

yes, we lost to a solid, slightly better than mediocre team tonight. but just barely, in a hostile environment, and they put forth what is easily their best effort of the season, while we played possibly our worst game so far.

k has said repeatedly that, post kyrie, this team is still figuring itself out. this game was part of that process. and i don't mean that in a way that "we'll learn more from losing tonight"; i just mean that we're still learning.

remember last season. we lost a few games--got blown out by g-town; lost to an absolutely [I]terrible[I] nc state team. and in the end, things tuned out pretty well. this is a process; let's not forget that. don't worry about where we are, or where we're headed; just enjoy the ride.

personally, i love these kids.

[gep]

I did worry about this game... FSU has been a thorn when Duke went into FSU ranked #1. But a few things did happen. FSU hit their FT's at the end of the game...5 of 6? if I recall? Who would have thought? They had some "lucky" 3's towards the end... the one that bounced off the rim... then right back in the basket?!??!? Duke definitely has things to work on and improve. But, it's not like the breakdown with Wisconson, NCState, GT, and GaTech last year. I'm hopeful that this year will be MUCH better... :cool:

[Neals384]

Anyone know why Miles got no time tonight?

THat put it at a 6 man rotation... roughly

1st half
18:11 James receives an entry pass right in front of the basket, Miles defending.
17:51 James get an O Board over Miles
17:34 Shannon goes right around Miles to the basket
17:25 Sub out for Mason

2nd Half
15:37 sub in
14:28 Goes to the floor with Nolan and a couple Noles, slow to get back down court; 4 on 3 for Noles.
14:03 His hook shot blocked by James
13:23 Loses Shannon, doesn't see/hear Mason motioning him to pick up Shannon, who misses an open jumper from the free throw line (Miles rebound).
13:14 Sub out

[Kedsy]

No irving, less than advertised curry (so far), 2 lost plums. This team has no shot at a NC.


ACC coaches with any length of tenure typically outcoach K when the talent doesn't match up.

All it takes to beat Duke is an above average D, 1 or 2 big men who rebound and a few variables.


Having Irving show up was the worst thing to happen to this team. They would be better right now if he never came.

You guys crack me up. Seriously, I'm laughing my you-know-what off right now.

[Kedsy]

FSU fell short in the rebounding margin, but their rebounds resulted in more scoring opportunities, so their rebounds were "felt" more than ours.

Actually, this isn't true, either. Duke had 13 second chance points to FSU's 10. We outrebounded them (as you point out), and while our turnovers were equal, we scored 19 points off turnovers while they scored 8. Their defense was better than ours, but then again it's supposed to be. Their shooting was better than ours, which is an anomaly, and that's why they ended up with more points than we did. I never like to see us lose, but this close road loss doesn't really bother me at all.

[elvis14]

I haven't read any of the 133 posts before this one so forgive me if I'm repeating anything. I'm pretty disappointed in the loss. A few thoughts:


We didn't seem to adjust to their D very well at all.
I didn't care for the way the game was called or more accurately, not called.
We need to be able to score in the paint sometimes. Tonight was one of those times.
We need to be able to defend better either on the perimeter or in the paint. Seemed like we got beat off the dribble all night and the help was either late or weak. Mason played a lot of minutes and it just seemed like he got caught in between all night.
It would be helpful if Kelly (who I love) was more effective tonight so we could have played Kyle more at the 3.
We set lots of picks on the perimeter. I would like to see us roll to hoop off some of those picks and make an entry pass for either a shot in the paint or an extra pass to whoever's open once they rotate to cover the guy rolling off the pick. I say that because all our picks kept the ball outside tonight unless Nolan took it to the rim and he wasn't effective at that tonight.
Those are mostly negatives and I apologize for that but we did lose to a team that's not that good. I did like the way we played hard the whole game.
I hope we can turn this into a positive. There's much to be learned by tonight's game.
We are going to face this kind of defense and officiating in the tournament so we need to get used to it.

[jafarr1]

If you want a positive, it's that Nolan and Kyle nearly singled-handedly kept us in the game.

FWIW, Curry had two shots (one two, one three) and a FT that were literally halfway down and came back out. On a different night, those go down and the game is very different.

Duke was exposed to a degree tonight. Nolan's drives were disrupted by multiple hands reaching in every time. Kyle was bodied up and bothered every time he ventured inside as well. Suffocate the dribble penetration, and there aren't any points in the paint or kick-outs to wide open shooters. Duke's offense is pretty much stifled at that point.

Really, I don't think the points in the paint is as much of a big deal as people make. What it really comes down to is that we need all five players on the court to execute their roles, and right now that's not happening.

We also need a third scorer, be it post or otherwise. Curry showed some flashes tonight, but Andre looked like he was scared to dribble, and nobody else was a meaningful offensive threat.

Two other things that the team will notice when reviewing film: their defensive positioning was often poor (especially on the interior), and Duke players rushed shots when they were open. Both are fixable.

This was the type of game that can leading to the teaching moments that Coach K loves so much, so it will be interesting to see what happens next.

[muzikfrk75]

These comparisons are ridiculous. None of the players you have next to each other are even close except for a McRoberts and Mason comparison. The sky is not falling. We lost road games to Wisconsin, Georgetown, NC State and Georgia Tech last season and remember how we thought we would never do anything last year. The only other loss was to Maryland. We will be ok. We have Coach K and he will find his Zoubek and tweak a few things.


Well put. If K didn't seem that worried after the game, why are y'all?

[Son of Jarhead]

I agree that the loss of Kyrie has hurt our attempts at showing an inside game & I understand some saying that we need to get the ball into the post more, but in this game, I have to credit FSU's ball pressure for limiting our inside game. It's part of K's defensive philosophy to apply tight ball pressure so that the guards can't see the bigs as easily, thus making it nearly impossible to pass the ball into the post. So give FSU props for making it so hard on us with their D. Our usual cuts to the basket or players flashing across the lane just weren't there tonight. FSU was playing the passing lanes well, denYing the ball, contesting shots, & they seemed to get their hands on everything... all much the way we usually do. Yes we need to work on our post game, but tonight was much more about what FSU was doing on D than what we were not doing on O. (& vice versa with their O & our D)

On the Plumlee brothers, Mason was rebounding well & playing decent D, so K stuck with him more. He missed some tip ins & such, but then again, so did everybody else. Again, I'd credit FSU's defense & toughness in contesting every shot. Not sure why Miles didn't paly more. I have to wonder if it was illness or something. What I thought while watching the game was that Miles was getting beat by the quicker FSU bigs so K went with the quicker Mason or Ryan. He has been playing with more more fire lately than Mason & I think that is why he has been starting lately.

FSU just played with greater intensity & toughness tonight. Kitchen played above his normal performances. Singleton was a force as expected. FSU shot better than their normal & we shot below our normal. Sometimes the other team just has a better night & out plays you. I'm looking at this one sort of like some of our few losses last year... the opponent was getting all the bounces, they earned them, & they won... as opposed to the "we lost" view. Give credit to FSU for the win & move on... work hard, get better... Nest Play.

[DUKIE V(A)]

A few thoughts...

1. As several have mentioned, I won't be surprised to see TT get a lot more time at the point...He looks to get others involved and will take some pressure off Nolan in handling the ball. In addition, Nolan will be fresher and be able to attack the basket from the wings (which will vary our attack a bit more). Right now, it seems that teams are using 2 or 3 defenders to shield him from the hoop when he has the ball up top. Perhaps most importantly, TT's on the ball, physical defense brings an extra energy to the team.

2. In Kyrie's absence, I think RK becomes even more key. He is a good passer and quite skilled at passing the ball into the post.

3. Seems like we have been missing quite a few opportunities to hit squared up open shooters at the three point line while forcing the ball into several defenders. I agree we need more of an inside presence but Dawkins and Curry shooting wide open 3's with their feet set is about he good as it gets.

4. 25 straight wins against such quality opponents is an amazing feat, especially given the stakes of the first 10. Losing a conference road game to such an athletic, long team is not too surprising. The streak had to end sometime. FSU was emotionally charged and played a great game. They contributed to our guys playing poorly. Credit to them.

5. The season is just getting started...Lots of positive can happen it terms of the team's development -- Kyrie or not.

[devildeac]

We lost, that's fine....Without Kyrie, it is obvious that on any day we can lose...

But, how does UNC Greensboro score more points against FSU's defense than we do? The loss doesn't really bother me, but for some reason, that fact does. :rolleyes:

Now that is one of the more interesting/sobering/disturbing/distressing factoids I have read in this thread. So far.:(

[oldnavy]

A road loss to one of the best defenesive teams in the nation in January and all of a sudden we go from a FF/NC favorite to sweet 16 team... Do I need to start passing out the Xanax??

I for one am "almost" happy we lost this game. It does nothing to diminish our prospect for post season seeding or does it have a major impact on our chances to win the ACC. What it will do is give K and the staff enough ammo to bring the kids back down to earth a little and re-focus on some areas where they need re-focusing. Anyone notice coach K's demenor during the post game? It was as if he was in a good mood after the loss.... maybe he sees how this will help him and the staff coach up the team?? Maybe that lousy feeling of getting out played and lossing will say more to the kids than he could get across with words and practice...

Sometimes lossing can and is a good thing.... (unless it happens in the NCAAT, and this was not the NCAAT).

Yes our bigs need to bring it more and harder, but do you really think that they won't come Feb or March? I think they will....

Remember as poorly as we played last night, we could have won that game with a break here or there in the last few minutes.... but it is basketball and you don't always get the breaks. FSU was just better LAST NIGHT... it happens and will happen again at some point...

Perspective please!!!

[Lord Ash]

I like a loss. As a many year athlete across multiple sports, I never liked the idea of having to head into serious tournament time undefeated (sorry, naysayers, but there IS a lot you can learn from a loss, emotionally as well as Xs and Os, and it creates a much different learning environment) and this was probably going to be one of the two or three toughest games of the year. It really made me angry, but it was likely inevitable, and certainly doesn't hurt our chances in March.

I agree on what some folks are pointing out about forcing the play when guys are open. Nolan in particular seems guilty of this... there are three or so instances a game over the last three or four games where I feel like he has totally missed Andre being open and, moments later, forced his way inside for a high-degree-of-difficulty shot. Sometimes he'll hit them, but others, not so much. I hope that we can look for some of those open guys on the outside.

Oh, and I wish that Seth had those first few shots of his back... remember how the first three went almost all the way down and then popped back up? Argh!:)

[lotusland]

I don't understand the negativism toward the Brothers Plumlee. Mason was 1 for 3 with 14 boards. If you want an inside game, pass the ball to the guy when he's on the block and give him room to work. A resounding majority of the time the Brothers Plumlee receive the ball at the 3-point line or in traffic.

Agree. It starts to sound like piling on. Mason and Miles are both pretty good interior passers. They need ball movement and penetration to create some room to work. Miles has a decent jump hook but otherwise they are not back to the basket post players. Still, Vitale was right, you have to pass to the post some and hope the defense collapses to free a shooter or cutter. Defensively I think both Plums will be more effective when they get a feel for when to help or go for a block and when to block out and rebound. They do frequently goal-tend unnecessarily. We need MP1 and MP2 involved so I hope we try to get out and run some or run some back door type lobs for them against UVA.

Nice to see Ryan knock down a 3 - I was starting to think there was a lid on the basket before that.

[Delaware]

What was the issue with Miles and his start, but only 6 minutes? Was he that bad? Hurt? Making defensive mistakes?

[kong123]

Seems to me that, without KI, Duke is in the same boat as they were last year. One area where Duke is better than last year is their ability to shot the ball well from 3. Without KI, there is zero inside game and no balance. Making 11 three's out of over 30 is still an incredible amount of production from three, but they only had like 6 two point buckets? Duke will still win almost every game in the ACC this year and be able to go deep in the NCAAT without KI, but Nolan will need to distribute the ball better in order to win it all. He can get into the lane anytime he wants, he just needs to dish the ball to the bigs more. Changing his mindset from 70% shoot/ 30% pass to 50% shoot/ 50% pass will make him even more dangerous.

[dbd4ever]

There are a lot of good things being mentioned on this thread and some just ridiculous stuff too. I agree with the thoughts that a loss at this point can be beneficial to our growth and progress through the season. But there are also some glaring weaknesses in some of our players games/mindsets.

Nolan has got to distribute and be the leader on the offensive end better than he has the last few games. It seems as if ever since all this talk of him being a NPOY candidate has come up, he has been reading his own headlines a little too much. In the last few games, he has been forcing his offense at questionable times and not really looking for his teammates(excluding Kyle) on a regular basis. What made Nolan come about so quickly after Kyrie's injury was that he was showing that he knew when to pick his spots. He knew when to score and when to get everyone involved and that was working out nicely. The last 2 or 3 games, he has been looking to put the team on his back too early in the game when he doesn't necessarily have to. I know we all say that he is not a point guard, so what is he?? He's not going to the next level to play the 2! Not happening in any sense. If J.J. is small for the NBA 2, then Nolan is not even a consideration.

The Plumlees need to be more aggressive on offense, but our guys need to make some sort of effort to get them the ball when they have position in the post. There were numerous times last night when Mason had good position on his defender and our guards continued to look him off. The kid can't score or help with the scoring load if he can't get the ball. Nolan, Kyle, Seth, and Andre continually looked Mason/Miles off last night. And in a game like this when the shots are not falling, what would it have hurt to throw the ball inside a time or two and let them try to score.

And I am all for the seniors or stars on the team having the green light to shoot or make a play, but I cannot in any way believe that the three from Kyle with about a minute to go was what Coach K had in mind for that possession. I know that Kyle had been scoring and shooting well the second half but that shot was from 25-27 feet out. There isn't but one person that i can think of that should be shooting from that far out with the game on the line and his number 4 is hanging back at Cameron and was not on the floor last night.

We will learn from this and hopefully Coach K has some changes coming for our offense. Because this is defenitely a season where we can experiment some throughout the ACC schedule. We will get better and hopefully hear something more positive and concrete on Kyrie's return. Next Play! Go Duke!!

[Saratoga2]

I knew this one was going to be a loss halfway through the 2nd half. FSU came to fight with good defense and an offense that was working tonight. We came out cold and had to work hard to get back into the game in the 2nd half. We tied them up multiple times and couldn't get over the hump That's never a good sign, and, a few times, they would regain the lead with a little bit of luck. In particular, I'm thinking of that FSU 3 that bounced off the rim high in the air and swooshed through the hoop. It is said that Coach K talks about the "Basketball gods" and I felt that they were on FSU's side tonight. We've been the beneficiary of the gods many times, but tonight the ball didn't bounce our way.

In terms of specific things I think need to worked out...

Nolan vacillates between playing within himself (good) and then trying to do too much (bad). He's the captain, the leader, and, I believe, feels a tremendous responsibility for shouldering the team. Obviously, Nolan has improved drastically from when he was a sophomore running the show, but his first inclination is to be a scorer. So, he looks to drive more than he looks to get his teammates the ball. When he's playing within himself, I think he makes good decisions, but I think his effectiveness dissipates when he starts pushing it. I agree with other posters who believe Nolan is dribbling the ball far too much. He seems to take up a good 20 seconds sometimes just dribbling around the perimeter. He doesn't even pass it to anyone. That's a problem. How hard can you make the defense work if you're just standing there? Then, when he does drive, his natural instincts take over and he looks to score. There were 2-3 instances tonight where I thought he got himself into a hot mess driving wise and had nowhere to go or didn't have awareness of who to kick the ball out to. This is something he needs to work on...learning balance. Opponents know Nolan is Duke's #1 scoring option right now and they're swarming him. Nolan has recognize this and adjust accordingly.

To help Nolan, I would really like to see K experiment with Tyler Thornton more. I thought he did a great job in the MD game, and I think he could relieve Nolan a bit by bringing the ball up. Tyler doesn't necessarily have to score like crazy; he just needs to protect the ball, get guys involved, and play tenacious D.

Kyle's been slow to warm-up in the games. I feel like he's not very involved in the offense outside of shooting the 3. In the MD game, he was better scoring-wise because he was making drives to the basket. Kyle has to help Nolan out more with driving to the basket because they are the best at getting in the paint and making something happen, whether it's a basket, drawing a foul, whatever.

Dre and Seth's handle on the ball is somewhat suspect. Someone said they liked what they saw of Curry dribbling into the paint tonight. I disagree - I felt his handle on the ball was poor when he tried to dribble and curl around a defender. I think he was stripped both times. Dre just seemd very off in general.

Mason's rebounding, but suffering from not having Kyrie there to create for him. Nolan and Co. are not effective in getting him the ball. Mason seems to have a hard time getting his own offense going unless it's out in the open floor or something. He was even having a hard time with putbacks and chippies tonight. For someone with his talent level, that needs to improve. If Mason can become more effective scoring wise and continue to rebound well, then we'll have a decent post presence.

I'm not sure why Miles was in the doghouse tonight, but I would have thought K might use him a bit more. I think Ryan is getting his minutes because his basketball IQ is better and he offers a bit more offensively. I still feel the Plumlees and Kelly have to get better at rebounding the ball. Opponents are outhustling them and getting better position. FSU fell short in the rebounding margin, but their rebounds resulted in more scoring opportunities, so their rebounds were "felt" more than ours.

Personally, I don't think the sky is falling, but I do think the team has a tremendous amount to work on. My guess is that this FSU game will be one of those games that K and Co. will credit as having been some kind of turning point for them in the season, or, at the very least, a learning experience that they grew from. All hope is not loss as long as we make adjustments and keep getting better.

Next Play!

I agree with much of what you say and am looking for a constructive way for this team to improve. This in not to knock Nolan, who had a very solid game, if you look at his stat line. Assists and steals were there as were his 19 points. But, as you say, he is taking a lot on himself, and other teams get it that they need to Limit Nolan and Kyle to beat the Duke team. Nolan does spend a lot of time dribbling the ball way away from the basket while the team spreads the defense. It is like an advertisement that Nolan is going to try to drive to the basket. Against the higher quality defenders, that is not working out so well.

I also agree that neither Seth and particularly not Andre have the handle to beat defenders regularly. Set is also a small guard which makes it particularly difficult for him to penetrate and score.

So without Kyrie, we still have Tyler, who does handle the ball well. He is a very strong kid and values the ball. I have been thinking for some time that Tyler should be given more of a chance at the point. I like the idea that Nolan can play the off guard where he is one of the best in the country. I like the lineups with 3 scorers, so perhaps Nolan, Kyle, Andre, Tyler and Mason might work better than where we were last night.

A second lineup which might work is to let Seth run the point, not a real strength there and play him with Nolan, Kyle, Kelly, and one of the Plumlees. That would keep 3 scorers in the game with either lineup and let Nolan play off the ball.

I mentioned last night that I thought we were outrebounded, which was not correct. I guess the impression was because they got 10 offensive rebounds while we got very few. We did better with defensive rebounds.

As far as Mason missing chippies inside, I think he just gets so wound up that he completely looses his touch. Things seem to be moving too fast for him. Watching good inside players of his size, such as the center from Wisconsin, he seems so much more poised. They are roughly the same size and Mason is a better athlete, but the other guy can score. I wonder if Mason can make the adjustment in time or will continue down the current line. People on the board are calling for more passing into him, but that has to be earned by Mason putting the ball in the basket when he gets the opportunity.

[moonpie23]

Remember this team right now is better than the team we had last year that won the title.

IX-NAY - last year we had THREE very reliable scorers......this year, only two. Last year we had a STRONG rebounding and blocking presence inside, this year it's iffy...

this team is a different team. Without KI, we're not as good (imho)


Look at the good side, Duke played awful and still almost won a road ACC game.

"almost winning" is not a good thing...

[lotusland]

A couple of random points:
1. Coach K evidently told Nolan not to worry about distributing the ball just play his game and score so it should be no surprise that he is doing that. If it is true that Nolan loses his edge when he focusses on getting others involved then we just have to live with that. I'd rather he penetrate and shoot than not penetrate at all or turn the ball over. 2. I like Kyle taking the long 3 with 30 seconds left. He was hot and he was open. In that situation neither he nor Nolan are going to get an open look any closer. I absolutely thought he was about to tie the game when he launched it. It's only a bad shot when it doesn't go in and how much more frustrating would it have been to have passed the ball around the perimeter and risk a turnover or a desperation shot at the end of the shot clock.

[RoyalBlue08]

I like a loss. As a many year athlete across multiple sports, I never liked the idea of having to head into serious tournament time undefeated (sorry, naysayers, but there IS a lot you can learn from a loss, emotionally as well as Xs and Os, and it creates a much different learning environment) and this was probably going to be one of the two or three toughest games of the year. It really made me angry, but it was likely inevitable, and certainly doesn't hurt our chances in March.

I agree on what some folks are pointing out about forcing the play when guys are open. Nolan in particular seems guilty of this... there are three or so instances a game over the last three or four games where I feel like he has totally missed Andre being open and, moments later, forced his way inside for a high-degree-of-difficulty shot. Sometimes he'll hit them, but others, not so much. I hope that we can look for some of those open guys on the outside.

Oh, and I wish that Seth had those first few shots of his back... remember how the first three went almost all the way down and then popped back up? Argh!:)

I think this is our biggest weakness right now. But I think Kyle is even more guilty of this than Nolan. It seems that once he has started his drive to the basket, it doesn't matter how many defenders run at him, he is going to try and get the shot off. I don't think this is a selfish thing or anything, just that he doesn't see the court very well once he puts the ball on the deck. We really don't have a drive and kick guy on this roster, and it is a shame because many of our players (Dre, Seth, Ryan, etc.) would greatly benefit from this sort of playmaker. I think Nolan has all the physical skills to be this guy, he just needs work seeing and reacting to what the defense is showing him when he has to make that split second decision.

[fuse]

FSU brought it last night, and earned the win. Their defense was stifling.

There was a lot of pre-game talk about FSU having poor guard play. Not sure Duke saw that last night with Kitchen on fire, but I'm surprised we did not press more. The few times we did, it seemed to disrupt FSU enough.

Go Duke!

[Monmouth77]

It seems to me that Duke's problems sans Irving stem from two core deficiencies: (1) no true point guard to set the offense and distribute and (2) inability to score easy points around the rim.

The issues are related in that we are not seeing good entry passes to big men, but our bigs just are not showing an ability to take the ball to the basket through contact. Mason played a tentative game all night and often shied from even trying to score through contact. When he made one or two strong moves he was fouled (though shot poorly from the line). He did rebound well.

I think we are going to (or at least should) start seeing a lot more of Tyler Thornton. He's probably the 5 or 6th best scoring option (behind Smith, Singler, Dawkins, Curry and Mason/Kelly) but he is a competent pass first guard who can establish some order in our offense. He is also an excellent on-the-ball defender. We need him out there.

As much as I like Curry's skill set it duplicates and does not necessarily compliment Nolan's skill set, unless we are in a 3 guard lineup with someone else (Irving/Thornton) earmarked as PG.

I also see a case for giving Hairston some burn. Who knows what goes on at practice, but in limited minutes I see a guy who blocks out, rebounds well, and has some touch in the paint. He cannot be a huge drop off from the Plumlees on either side of the ball, and you never know what you might get.

On the bright side, FSU is a unique opponent and it is always hard to play them in Tallahassee. We won't face a better defense in the regular season (Pomeroy has them behind only Duke, Ohio State, Kansas, Purdue and one or two others) and it is a defense uniquely suited to kill dribble penetration and punish weak post play. No one else in the ACC has the length and athleticism to bother us like that (well, the Heels do, but they don't know how to use it) and we will never have a worse shooting outing.

I still say 14-2 in the ACC without Irving.

[peterjswift]

A few of my basketball pet peeves showed up in this game, and one of them potentially affected the outcome.

My pet peeves (these apply to most games, not just this one...I'm not calling out the officials this time, since most officials in almost all college basketball games consistently do this):

1. No fouls called in the last few seconds of a game.
2. If a player is lying on the floor with the ball, opposing players can do practically anything to try to get their hands on the ball without a foul ever being called.
3. Fouls rarely called while chasing a loose ball.

I noticed 1 and 3 in this game, and 1 definitely had an impact at the end. With less than 5 seconds left, Duke had the ball in the corner. I can't remember who was shooting (Singler or Dawkins), but they got their man up in the air, and took a shot, creating significant (think hockey hip check) contact on the play with no foul called. A foul would have created the potential to win or tie the game (sink two, miss the third, rebound effectively and score). Albeit, this is incredibly unlikely to happen, but I don't like the refs swallowing their whistles in the last few seconds to "let them play." I understand ignoring some hand checks by a losing team trying to extend a game they have no chance in, but ignoring a potentially game changing and obvious foul by the winning team is frustrating.

Not that this cost Duke the game, but it did cost them an opportunity to make up for mistakes earlier in the game. Anyone else notice this?

[NSDukeFan]

I think a lot of it has to do with the little things he doesn't do or does wrong (tries to block shots he shouldn't rather than boxing out, slow on defensive rotations, almost never boxes out and just tries to outjump everybody, etc...)

Low IQ mistakes tend to upset people a lot more than other mistakes. It also becomes even more frustrating because of the flashes of brilliance exhibited.

I tend to give everyone a bit more benefit of the doubt, but I thought this sounded like a reasonable analysis of why people may be hard on Mason. Everyone sees the potential and expects he will be a very good player and we would all like him to get there now. Unfortunately, like many it will take some time.

14 boards... he must have boxed someone out. I think his D is on par with the rest of the team's though he did get schooled on that up and under by Shannon. Many times his man scores because he's had to rotate to stop a drive.
I think Mason does a great job of hustling after rebounds and going after them aggressively, which was definitely needed in this game. I am not sure he is great at boxing out though and a lot of rebounds does not necessarily mean he boxed out a lot.


The next two practices will be the most intense of the season.

If I were K, although he'll never do it, I would "think" about starting Tyler and/or Josh on Saturday. Just to send a message.
I would expect the strongest message was seen on the scoreboard and with the FSU fans storming the court.

My quick thoughts:

Defense: We need to defend the post better. Mental lapses by several of the guys hurt us.

Offense: We need to get the ball in the paint. We can't just pass the ball around the perimeter. The ball needs to go into the post with a pass or dribble penetration. The bigs don't need to score a lot, but they must be involved in the offense.

Where I would really like to see them improve on offense is setting screens. Most of their screens are poor, and they make no contact with the person they are supposed to be screening. Mason's best screen resulted in a Nolan 3 towards the end of the game. Unfortunately most of his screens are more of a show. All of the bigs need to watch "tape" of Zoubs setting screens last year. He was awesome at it. I can't help but wonder if we would have gotten a few better looks with some better screens.

Intensity: We came out with no fire. FSU did. Coach K said in the post-game presser that we showed up to play but not to fight. FSU showed up to fight. We have to start the game at a high level not wait for the last 15 minutes.

I think I agree with all of your points, though I would add that FSU was a big factor in this. Part of the reason the ball didn't get into the paint (besides the offense not generally focused that way) is FSU's defense both with perimeter pressure and denying the post entry passes.
I also agree screen setting could be improved, but FSU did the best job of any team I have seen at fighting through screens.

[GODUKEGO]

The pundits say if you are going to lose, lose in January and February and not March or of couse April. Good news is with the loss the monkey is off our back.

Florida State's shooting average for the season is:
Field goal % 42.8 last night 44.4%
Free throw % 66.0 last night 66.7%
3 point % 33.4% last night 46.2%
My point is they played about to their potential with the exception from three points. They hit their last four critical free throws and Singleton's three pointer. Those do not go and we are talking about an ugly win.

On the other hand are stats for the year versus last night:
Field goal % 48.3 last night 31.1%
3 point % 41.7% last night 31.4%
My point here is we stunk. Coach K said in the press conference after the game that Florida State is a very good defensive team. We made them look even better by rushing our shots and taking very low precentage shots.

Reading some of the above post, I find it interesting that after a national Championship and starting this season 15-1, we now want to make changes offensively. Especially getting the Plumlees more involved. They constitute no offensive threat except for ally-oop dunks, fast break dunks and put backs. I would much rather have Seth Curry shooting a three than Miles Plumlee getting the ball knocked out of his hand in the post, getting his shot blocked or missing a three foot bank shot like he did last night.

The wheel is not broke but just got a little stuck last night. We will be back with vengeance!!!

[peterjswift]

There was a lot of pre-game talk about FSU having poor guard play. Not sure Duke saw that last night with Kitchen on fire, but I'm surprised we did not press more. The few times we did, it seemed to disrupt FSU enough.

Go Duke!

This surprised me too. The few times I saw the press, it seemed to confound FSU's players, and one time it created a turnover.

[superdave]

No irving, less than advertised curry (so far), 2 lost plums. This team has no shot at a NC. Especially if one of the big 2 has a mediocre night God forbid a completely off night. One weapon short...

Do you realize we're more talented this year than last? Do you realize we're deeper this year too? Do you realize we almost won a game against a good team on the road that was a bad matchup for us where we could not shoot and where no one wanted to drive the lane?

Of course we had no shot at a NC last year either. Buncha bums.

[superdave]

Nolan will need to distribute the ball better in order to win it all. He can get into the lane anytime he wants, he just needs to dish the ball to the bigs more. Changing his mindset from 70% shoot/ 30% pass to 50% shoot/ 50% pass will make him even more dangerous.

Nolan could not get into the lane last night, and when he did he could not finish. FSU did the same thing Maryland did the other night - when Nolan beat his defender, a guy rotated over and stripped him, blocked his shot or pushed him away from where he wanted to go. Good scouting, good D.

Shoot first point guards are not always a good idea, so I think you hit on a good point here. For the most part, PGs should get the rest of the team going then look for their shots later in the game once the team has some rhythm.

One advantage we had last night was Nolan as a one man fast break. I think we got one bucket out of that, but the rest of the night the FSU defense got back and got set. And FSU is loooong. A team needs a steady stream of easy buckets to beat a tough D and we didnt get them on the break or when we penetrated last night because their D was more aggressive than our O. A failure of will on our part.

[jv001]

FSU brought it last night, and earned the win. Their defense was stifling.

There was a lot of pre-game talk about FSU having poor guard play. Not sure Duke saw that last night with Kitchen on fire, but I'm surprised we did not press more. The few times we did, it seemed to disrupt FSU enough.
Go Duke!

Florida State played really hard but we played hard as well. Kitchen played very well and seemed to beat our guys off the dribble with ease. But like you, I wonder why we didn't press more. I watched most of FSU's game against Auburn(really bad team) and Auburn had great success pressing the Noles. Coach K certainly has plenty to work with after watching this game film. Not sure he has enough time before the Virginia game to get it all worked out. Go Duke!

[rsvman]

Wow, there's a lot of prospective Chicken Little's who've popped up on here.......one loss is NOT the end of this season. Geez. We were outplayed, had several shots just miss, and they had some drop. Anything that happened on the rim, rest assured, was dropping for them and missing for us. That's part of the game. We need the Plumlees and Ryan to step up and give some kind of post presence on BOTH ends of the floor and need to make smarter decisions with the ball. As well as Kyle played in the 2nd half, that last 30 foot three he took was truly unnecessary to take. To paraphrase what was said earlier, I'd hate to be Virginia Saturday. NEXT.

Spot on.

I can think, off the top of my head, of at least three 3-pointers that rattled around or went halfway down and then back out from Curry/Dawkins, and a point-blank put-back by Mason that rattled off; on the flip side there was that ridiculous 3-pointer by Kitchen that flew 8 feet up off the rim but somehow managed to fall back through and the last bucket they made before halftime, in which the guy just hit the ball in a random direction and it found its way through the hoop.

A couple of those go the other way and we win the game.


We got out-hustled a lot, though. They got a ton of loose balls.

Agree that Nolan, once he drives, almost always looks to shoot, but he needs to look for the pass as well. On one play in particular, Kyle would have had an uncontested layup but Smith opted for the circus shot while being heavily defended. His decision-making will improve.

I think this team will still win a lot of games and has the potential to do very well in the NCAAT.

[Kfanarmy]

So I get the value of 14 rebounds. I think Mason contributed greatly last night. What I really, really don't understand is why he and Miles have such a hard time hitting the bucket from 2-3 feet. If they don't dunk, they generally can't hit. At that distance, I just don't understand why...anybody?

[peterjswift]

One other thing I was thinking about, and even noticed last night - none of the freshman have ever had to play in an end-game situation when they are down and trying to catch back up. I'm sure they've practiced it, but this is the first game situation where they faced a consistent deficit, and needed to get points in a hurry at the end.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out, but this should reinforce principles the coaches are pushing in practice for all the freshman. And for the upperclassman, this is a good refresher...since it has been about 10 months since they've dealt with this scenario.

So, while I thought the end-game play by Duke was sub par last night, it shouldn't be surprising, since this is the first time that particular skill-set was challenged for the team this year. I think this will eliminate some of the panic and mental mistakes in the future.

[superdave]

Reading some of the above post, I find it interesting that after a national Championship and starting this season 15-1, we now want to make changes offensively. Especially getting the Plumlees more involved. They constitute no offensive threat except for ally-oop dunks, fast break dunks and put backs. I would much rather have Seth Curry shooting a three than Miles Plumlee getting the ball knocked out of his hand in the post, getting his shot blocked or missing a three foot bank shot like he did last night.

The wheel is not broke but just got a little stuck last night. We will be back with vengeance!!!

We did take a lot of low percentage shots last night - but why is that?

FSU saw if they took away our dribble drive we'd just chuck up threes. On que, Duke shot 35 threes and just 26 twos. That is dumb because it is imbalanced and predictable.

We had some open looks which I never quarrel with. We shoot well and should shoot every open three. But we over-dribbled and passed the ball around the perimeter far too often, which led to rushed late in the shot clock threes. FSU was determined to take away our drive, and we let them for the most part. We may not have a post game, which is fine in some ways. But that does not mean you cant run the ball through the post, or the high post, if the D is taking away some of what you are doing. If you chuck up threes 60% of the time, you dont get fouled, you dont put pressure on the D and you have no balance. It's like passing too much in the NFL - you still have to run the ball some to keep the D honest.

[superdave]

So I get the value of 14 rebounds. I think Mason contributed greatly last night. What I really, really don't understand is why he and Miles have such a hard time hitting the bucket from 2-3 feet. If they don't dunk, they generally can't hit. At that distance, I just don't understand why...anybody?

I think it's a question of reps. The more they do it, the better they will come. Ryan should also be included in your statement.

[superdave]

One other thing I was thinking about, and even noticed last night - none of the freshman have ever had to play in an end-game situation when they are down and trying to catch back up. I'm sure they've practiced it, but this is the first game situation where they faced a consistent deficit, and needed to get points in a hurry at the end.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out, but this should reinforce principles the coaches are pushing in practice for all the freshman. And for the upperclassman, this is a good refresher...since it has been about 10 months since they've dealt with this scenario.

So, while I thought the end-game play by Duke was sub par last night, it shouldn't be surprising, since this is the first time that particular skill-set was challenged for the team this year. I think this will eliminate some of the panic and mental mistakes in the future.

Duke often plays from ahead at end of game situations, running the delay offense and shooting FTs. So it's good experience for all to play from behind on both ends of the court. I like that we trusted our D and didnt just foul them. I dont like that we shot contested 26 footers a number of times. I think pushing the ball up court and getting to the rim when there's 60 or 90 seconds on the clock is a better idea. But yeah, Butler was a close finish last year, right?

[77devil]

Do you realize we're more talented this year than last?

Without KI available, this statement is highly debatable. The addition of Thorton, Hairston, and Curry are not an obvious talent upgrade to Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek, at least not yet. The new trio may indeed have more inherent ability, but until it's developed enough to consistently produce, Duke is more vulnerable.

[peterjswift]

Duke often plays from ahead at end of game situations, running the delay offense and shooting FTs. So it's good experience for all to play from behind on both ends of the court. I like that we trusted our D and didnt just foul them. I dont like that we shot contested 26 footers a number of times. I think pushing the ball up court and getting to the rim when there's 60 or 90 seconds on the clock is a better idea. But yeah, Butler was a close finish last year, right?

Exactly - the experience of playing from behind at the end of the game should be pretty valuable, and while I don't think they did a terrible job last night, there was room for improvement. Getting to the rim would have been great, as I think FSU may have been loathe to foul or even play tight defense in that situation to avoid fouling (or at least give it a shot and find out!).

Butler was a close finish, but as you know, that was playing to protect a lead, not playing from behind.

I think this loss will serve them well, though hopefully this extra "playing from behind" practice won't come in handy the rest of the way through the season. :cool:

[flyingdutchdevil]

Without KI available, this statement is highly debatable. The addition of Thorton, Hairston, and Curry are not an obvious talent upgrade to Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek, at least not yet. The new trio may indeed have more inherent ability, but until it's developed enough to consistently produce, Duke is more vulnerable.

I would disagree. Without KI, we are still more talented. The addition of the new players, coupled with the improvement of Dawkins, Kelly, and the Plumlees make us much better than last year. However, this team is far from the cohesiveness and IQ that made up last years team. I may be in the minority here, but I believe that last year's team was somewhat talented but outsmarted, out-hustled, and outplayed their opponents. This current team can get by opponents on shear talent, but we won't go far unless we focus on teamwork, define roles, and get everyone to believe in the system.

[obsesseddukefan]

Well the Plumlees had a great rebounding game, but again what I have been concerned about is foul trouble and lack of points. Would have liked the rebounds to turn into put back points. Some people thought my comments about the Plumlees weren't warranted from the Maryland game. Maybe they weren't. But my overall concern started with the Maryland game. I do think they will improve. I am glad that Duke doesn't have to focus on an undefeated season, and it is on to the next play. Go Duke!

My other observation from last nights game was Nolan. I have no isue with his game, he will get his points. Leting the shot clock go down to 7 seconds and then dishing it to Curry or Dawkins to have them rush a shot is not good. Again, it very well could have been FSU defense for I think the defense from FSU was outstanding.

FSU earned this win, they out played, hustled, and controlled the tempo of the game.
Look, I know it stings, trust me I feel it. But the fact is we are 15-1 and 2-1 in conference. We will be just fine. Everyone should know that when you shoot 31% from the field and have 15 turnovers it's going to be a long night. I know a loss is a loss but almost pulling out a road win means we will be fine. ;)

[_Gary]

We did take a lot of low percentage shots last night - but why is that?

FSU saw if they took away our dribble drive we'd just chuck up threes. On que, Duke shot 35 threes and just 26 twos. That is dumb because it is imbalanced and predictable.

We had some open looks which I never quarrel with. We shoot well and should shoot every open three. But we over-dribbled and passed the ball around the perimeter far too often, which led to rushed late in the shot clock threes. FSU was determined to take away our drive, and we let them for the most part. We may not have a post game, which is fine in some ways. But that does not mean you cant run the ball through the post, or the high post, if the D is taking away some of what you are doing. If you chuck up threes 60% of the time, you dont get fouled, you dont put pressure on the D and you have no balance. It's like passing too much in the NFL - you still have to run the ball some to keep the D honest.

Dave, I completely agree with you about shooting too many threes last night and the passing being almost exclusively perimeter oriented. We should try to pass into the post and then see if we can pass back out and find a better shot. There was a lot of pounding the ball last night, especially from Nolan. But here's the bottom line: Without Kyrie we simply don't have the ability to dribble drive and break down defenses. We just don't. And that's the most depressing part of this.

Last night Coach said it again. With Kyrie we were a great team. A truly great team. Without him we are only a good team. Right now we are not at the same level as a Kansas, just as an example. The coaching staff is going to have its hands full figuring out how to retool this team. I think that's why Coach K was pretty mellow last night in the presser. Sure, we could have come out with more emotion and that might have given us the win had we matched FSU's intensity for the entire game. But even if we had, there are glaring deficiences with this team. And its going to take some real coaching expertise to get this team to a place it needs to be to compete for a championship in about 2 months. Fortunately we do have the best in the business and he will devise a plan. My question is, do our guys have what it takes to make that plan work? Without a true PG I do believe things will be continue to be dicey until/unless we somehow get Kyrie back.

Some mentioned Miles lack of play. I too found that very strange and am wondering why he didn't get more time. I'd love to know what Coach was thinking on that one.

The last point I'll make, and I know some people here are going to roll their eyes, is that I do hate seeing Nolan and Kyle play a full 40 night in and night out. It's still hard for me to believe that, along with the emotional pressure those two face as the leaders of this team, it won't wear them down over the course of the season.

Go Duke!

[GODUKEGO]

So I get the value of 14 rebounds. I think Mason contributed greatly last night. What I really, really don't understand is why he and Miles have such a hard time hitting the bucket from 2-3 feet. If they don't dunk, they generally can't hit. At that distance, I just don't understand why...anybody?

With my previous post, I agree with you 100% and there are those who want to get them more involved offensively!!!

[flyingdutchdevil]

FSU earned this win, they out played, hustled, and controlled the tempo of the game.
Look, I know it stings, trust me I feel it. But the fact is we are 15-1 and 2-1 in conference. We will be just fine. Everyone should know that when you shoot 31% from the field and have 15 turnovers it's going to be a long night. I know a loss is a loss but almost pulling out a road win means we will be fine. ;)

Certainly agree with this sentiment. We will be fine. A loss on the road against one of the best defensive teams in the country who somehow found their offensive flow is not a bad loss. We'll bounce back. Tony Bennett must be shaking in his boots now.

I always have a favorite non-Duke ACC player (never a UNC guy, though). Last year it was Grevis. This year, it's definitely Singleton. Love the way he plays.

[MulletMan]

1. We lack and inside post presence on the offensive end.
2. We do not have any ability to rebound.
3. We shoot to many threes.
4. We don't have good enough point guard play.
5. K is a good motivator, but poor coach.
6. Its easy to beat Duke if you play D and rebound.
7. We can't put pressure on the ball.
8. We don't recruit well and need to get some more athletes and big men.
9. I don't see how we can go beyond the 1st weekend of the tourney even though 12 hours ago I was talking about us going undefeated.
10. Duke is pretty crappy.

That about cover it?

[jammsb]

Folks, I think the bottom line is that when you shoot 31 percent, you are always going to lose.

[Lord Ash]

I think it's a question of reps. The more they do it, the better they will come. Ryan should also be included in your statement.

Oh, see this I disagree with... Ryan actually has good hands up close, and has hit a bunch of putbacks and up and unders over the course of this year. I think you might not be remembering his play this year quite right.

[mkirsh]

I can’t believe this thread has 172 posts in it already (and that I’ve read them all), but I will add my two cents. I was pretty angry as were most people watching us lose last night, but here is my glass half full perspective

1. It shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone that we are capable of playing poorly. This is college basketball, and teams have off nights. Last year’s team had two crappy games in January at State and at Georgetown.
The good news: we played poorly against Maryland and still won, and last night had a chance to win if a few more free throws go down. If we had played well and lost there would be cause for concern, but many of our current faults are correctable

2. The offense needs a facelift. For two games in a row we’ve been a little stagnant, and have had a hard time getting quality looks. In my opinion there are two main contributors:
1) spacing – there are many times when Nolan beats his man off the bounce, only to run into 2 other defenders, yet no one else is open. Part of this is FSU’s length, part is that we are pretty bunched up and can do better. There were some possessions where Curry and Dawkins were stading 5 feet from each other. As this team plays together more (remember, this is only our second real challenge since losing Kyrie), these things will come
2) screens – many others have noted this as well, but our interior screening is pretty poor (and was a big strength last year). There are far too many possessions where Nolan is pounding the ball into the floor at the top of the key for 20 seconds waiting for people to get open who never do.
Good news here is that these are easily correctible, and we made a very similar transformation after the G’Town game last year. Other piece of good news is that the high ball screen with Kyle and Nolan has been really effective the last 2 games (especially in line ups where Kyle is the 4), and will get even better when the spacing improves.

3. Probably our worst defensive game of the year, especially considering the opponent, but you have to give credit to FSU. Duke defense is focused on pressuring ballhandlers and taking away 3’s on the perimeter, and rotating and taking charges on the interior. Our defense forces teams to take hard 2’s – pull up jumpers, runners, floaters, etc, which we did last night. These are really hard shots, but Kitchen made them look easy last night. Have to give him props for that. In addition, we gave up too much dribble penetration, especially Andre who had his worst defensive game of the year. (side note, I also wonder as a coaching staff how you game plan for a bad offensive team? When you are watching tape of FSU against Auburn, what do you think you need to take away?) The good news here is that I think we’ve proved throughout the year that we can be a very good defensive team, and our defense was good last night (just not enough to overcome the poor O).

Other observation – I would not be surprised to see Thornton start against UVA. Neither Seth nor Andre has really claimed the starters role, TT can help us be better at stopping dribble penetration, and also allow Nolan to move off the ball and run more motion offense. Would expect something similar to Kelly's role - start but play limited minutes.

[Zeb]

Without KI, we are still more talented. The addition of the new players, coupled with the improvement of Dawkins, Kelly, and the Plumlees make us much better than last year...I believe that last year's team was somewhat talented but outsmarted, out-hustled, and outplayed their opponents.

Without KI, we are NOT more talented than last year's team.

Bigs: Zoubek was the best offensive rebounder in the country. Lance Thomas gave us much more consistent rebounding and post defense than anyone on our current roster. The 2011 Plumlees sadly don't look too much different than their 2010 versions--their higher stats are a function of more minutes, not better perfomance. And while 2011 Kelly is superior to his 2010 self, I would much rather have either Zoubek or Thomas in the lineup than Kelly right now.

Guards/Wings: You could argue 2011 Smith and Singler are better than their 2010 selves, but I wouldn't say its by much. Regardless, there is NO ONE in 2011 who can make up for the loss of Scheyer. 40 combined minutes from Dawkins and Curry is still far short of 40 minutes of Scheyer.

The 2010 team would beat the 2011 team by 10 points right now, because Zoubek would crush the Plumlees on the boards and Scheyer would eat Dawkins/Curry alive.

If you want to somehow argue that 2011 is more talented but 2010 was somehow "better" because they "outsmarted, out-hustled, and outplayed their opponents"... well what good is talent then? And isn't playing smarter, hustling more, and outplaying opponents a talent?

Who knows where the 2011 team will end up. I'm not predicting doom. But c'mon--without Kyrie this team is not an improvement over last year's champs.

[SMO]

Very well said...people the world is not coming to an end. Michael Jordan nor Dean Smith nor Roy Williams are President....the recession is over....and we still have a very good team which will win plenty more games...

Please. Today is NOT the time for a voice of reason it is a day to mourn, fret, and gnash teeth:p

I wonder if all the posters telling us how many games this team will lose and how far they will go in March will still bother to watch the games even though they already know what is going to happen.

[tele]

I can't believe KenPom was wrong, but I'm sure he'll adjust!

More balance inside/outside on offense would be good. Bigs need to show they can catch it, and pass it back out, as well as put it in the hole after they get it. 1 basket from the bigs inside won't do.

On Kyle's last 3, looked to me like he wasn't going to shoot it at first but then shifted and put it up; this was right in front of the Duke bench so maybe Coach K told him to shoot it, we've seen that before.

Kyle and Nolan's shooting percentages were way down, Kyle left that last three short and left a free throw short. These are all examples of tired play. Also, having Kyle play the point position on the full court press is the most tiring job on the press. Even seniors get tired, I just hope that susceptibility to injury due to fatigue doesn't become a problem for this team.

I thought Mason played hard and deserves a lot of credit for getting 14 rebounds, that is huge! However, it would be good to see him, and the other post players play with their hands above their waist, otherwise they may as well put pockets in their shorts. On offensive end need to have hands up to demand the ball and ready to catch it, not scratch somewhere. And on defense too, need to get the hands above the head. Even Zoubek learned how to defend the rim by just standing tall with his hands straight up in the air will alter shots. Mason tends to just raise one arm and wave at the ball. Both of these make them play smaller on offense and defense, like 5'11" or so. FSU players are Long and they played long with their arms straight up, (also on a lot of reach ins but thats another story).

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

One more thing stuck out at me, the manner of our turnovers. During the MD game, we had the ball slapped loose numerous times. During the FSU game, we had the ball ripped out of our hands a bunch of times. Like a linebacker ripping the ball out of a running back's hands. I can't remember the last time I have seen that happen.

At halftime, I posted that I wanted to see Andre take his guy off the dribble. They were really up in his face. He tried it twice in the beginning of the second half and just had the ball ripped out. Oops. Nevermind. :confused: He was just one of our guys that were back on their heels all night, they brought the fight and we reacted. It is always better to be the aggressor.

[Zeb]

The offense needs a facelift. For two games in a row we’ve been a little stagnant, and have had a hard time getting quality looks.

Note that our last two games have both been against top 10 defenses according to kenpom. I think that has a lot to do with what you saw from our offense. Doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to work on our game, but give our opponents some props.

[NSDukeFan]

...

2. I actually thought Dickie V had a rare moment of clarity when he said near the end of the game that Duke needs to find a way to generate some points in the post. Last year we won it all without a real offensive option in the post, but that was an exception to the general rule in basketball that you need a post presence to keep defenses honest in the half court. This is particularly important as we transition from a running team to a half court team in Kyrie's absence.

IMO, it wouldn't be the worst thing in the world if we were to just dump the ball in to Miles and Mason 5-10 times combined each game and try to let them figure out how to translate the moves they make in practice to real games. I understand the value of each possession, especially in ACC play, but I think the Plumlees need to be given a little bit longer leash (in much the same way Kyle and Nolan are) if we want them to gain confidence and become more effective this season. It's at least an experiment worth trying while the season is young. (And also, maybe Coach K can have them practice with pugil sticks American Gladiator-style to toughen them up a bit. :) )

In any case, it's obviously not time to panic. With two of the best seniors in America we'll almost certainly go deep in March. But it's probably fair to say that the other guys need to start stepping up if we want to play in April.
I am certainly a proponent of getting the ball in the post, though I disagree that our post players need to just practice their post moves all the time. I would really enjoy if the team could get post touches and even have the ball come right back out if there is not a good scoring option there. The problem last night, IMO, is that I thought our post players did make an effort to post up, they just weren't very successful at it and FSU did the best job I have seen at denying the post entry. Combine that with some perimeter pressure and Duke's lack of focus on post touches and it wasn't going to happen.

I agree that the loss of Kyrie has hurt our attempts at showing an inside game & I understand some saying that we need to get the ball into the post more, but in this game, I have to credit FSU's ball pressure for limiting our inside game. It's part of K's defensive philosophy to apply tight ball pressure so that the guards can't see the bigs as easily, thus making it nearly impossible to pass the ball into the post. So give FSU props for making it so hard on us with their D. Our usual cuts to the basket or players flashing across the lane just weren't there tonight. FSU was playing the passing lanes well, denYing the ball, contesting shots, & they seemed to get their hands on everything... all much the way we usually do. Yes we need to work on our post game, but tonight was much more about what FSU was doing on D than what we were not doing on O. (& vice versa with their O & our D)

On the Plumlee brothers, Mason was rebounding well & playing decent D, so K stuck with him more. He missed some tip ins & such, but then again, so did everybody else. Again, I'd credit FSU's defense & toughness in contesting every shot. Not sure why Miles didn't paly more. I have to wonder if it was illness or something. What I thought while watching the game was that Miles was getting beat by the quicker FSU bigs so K went with the quicker Mason or Ryan. He has been playing with more more fire lately than Mason & I think that is why he has been starting lately.

FSU just played with greater intensity & toughness tonight. Kitchen played above his normal performances. Singleton was a force as expected. FSU shot better than their normal & we shot below our normal. Sometimes the other team just has a better night & out plays you. I'm looking at this one sort of like some of our few losses last year... the opponent was getting all the bounces, they earned them, & they won... as opposed to the "we lost" view. Give credit to FSU for the win & move on... work hard, get better... Nest Play.
I thought this was a pretty good summary of some of the key points. I agree strongly that FSU denied entry passes and post passes better than any team I have seen so far (unfortunately, including Duke.) I also wonder about Miles' playing time as this would seem to be a game where he would be a good option defending inside. He must not have been our best post defender on this night.

I think this is our biggest weakness right now. But I think Kyle is even more guilty of this than Nolan. It seems that once he has started his drive to the basket, it doesn't matter how many defenders run at him, he is going to try and get the shot off. I don't think this is a selfish thing or anything, just that he doesn't see the court very well once he puts the ball on the deck. We really don't have a drive and kick guy on this roster, and it is a shame because many of our players (Dre, Seth, Ryan, etc.) would greatly benefit from this sort of playmaker. I think Nolan has all the physical skills to be this guy, he just needs work seeing and reacting to what the defense is showing him when he has to make that split second decision.
I would agree that I don't think there is any selfishness at all on Nolan or Kyle's part. I just think that sometimes we take it for granted that players should be able to see open players when they are driving and it is perhaps a more difficult skill than we sometimes acknowledge. I also think that Nolan is still figuring out how to balance scoring and facilitating responsibilities. FSU (and Maryland) are tough teams to be figuring this out against.

So I get the value of 14 rebounds. I think Mason contributed greatly last night. What I really, really don't understand is why he and Miles have such a hard time hitting the bucket from 2-3 feet. If they don't dunk, they generally can't hit. At that distance, I just don't understand why...anybody?
I expect that part of the reason that he sometimes misses interior shots is the same reason that I hope teams miss interior shots against. Some good tall players contesting most shots inside, so that even open ones seem pressured.

We did take a lot of low percentage shots last night - but why is that?

FSU saw if they took away our dribble drive we'd just chuck up threes. On que, Duke shot 35 threes and just 26 twos. That is dumb because it is imbalanced and predictable.

We had some open looks which I never quarrel with. We shoot well and should shoot every open three. But we over-dribbled and passed the ball around the perimeter far too often, which led to rushed late in the shot clock threes. FSU was determined to take away our drive, and we let them for the most part. We may not have a post game, which is fine in some ways. But that does not mean you cant run the ball through the post, or the high post, if the D is taking away some of what you are doing. If you chuck up threes 60% of the time, you dont get fouled, you dont put pressure on the D and you have no balance. It's like passing too much in the NFL - you still have to run the ball some to keep the D honest.
I would love to see the team get the ball more into both high and low posts, though FSU did a great job denying those entries. Hopefully, the team will diversify its offense more going forward.

Dave, I completely agree with you about shooting too many threes last night and the passing being almost exclusively perimeter oriented. We should try to pass into the post and then see if we can pass back out and find a better shot. There was a lot of pounding the ball last night, especially from Nolan. But here's the bottom line: Without Kyrie we simply don't have the ability to dribble drive and break down defenses. We just don't. And that's the most depressing part of this.

Last night Coach said it again. With Kyrie we were a great team. A truly great team. Without him we are only a good team. Right now we are not at the same level as a Kansas, just as an example. The coaching staff is going to have its hands full figuring out how to retool this team. I think that's why Coach K was pretty mellow last night in the presser. Sure, we could have come out with more emotion and that might have given us the win had we matched FSU's intensity for the entire game. But even if we had, there are glaring deficiences with this team. And its going to take some real coaching expertise to get this team to a place it needs to be to compete for a championship in about 2 months. Fortunately we do have the best in the business and he will devise a plan. My question is, do our guys have what it takes to make that plan work? Without a true PG I do believe things will be continue to be dicey until/unless we somehow get Kyrie back.

Some mentioned Miles lack of play. I too found that very strange and am wondering why he didn't get more time. I'd love to know what Coach was thinking on that one.

The last point I'll make, and I know some people here are going to roll their eyes, is that I do hate seeing Nolan and Kyle play a full 40 night in and night out. It's still hard for me to believe that, along with the emotional pressure those two face as the leaders of this team, it won't wear them down over the course of the season.

Go Duke!
I am still hoping Nolan and Kyle (and the rest of the team) improve their abilities to see open teammates when driving against teams that help out well defensively. I think the team has the potential to create shots off penetration even without Kyrie, though not to the same extent. I agree there was too much dribbling up top, but part of that was due to FSU doing a great job denying the initial entry pass.

The worst example was when Kyle sat off with 2 fouls, Seth and Andre couldn't get open and Nolan ended up throwing a lob to Seth (since his man was cheating on top of the screen) which resulted in a turnover. I believe Kyle had to come back in with two fouls at this point since he uses screens better and the team had to be able to make that first entry pass. I don't think FSU switched that many screens but just fought through them and/or cheated over the top of them.

I don't know that I would say Duke is not at the level of Kansas or any other team right now, but that the team needs to improve quite a bit to beat the top teams at the end of the year. But that hasn't changed in the past couple of weeks.

And I am definitely rolling my eyes at the last paragraph.:rolleyes::)

I must say I am quite enjoying this thread as there hasn't been that much "I saw Duke lose in (pick any non-NCAA championship year) and I could tell they wouldn't win that year and this looked just like that."

If the team isn't going to get much more scoring or offense inside, I hope the team applies even more defensive pressure and looks to run more so that easy baskets are generated in games where the team doesn't shoot well.

[superdave]

1. We lack and inside post presence on the offensive end.
2. We do not have any ability to rebound.
3. We shoot to many threes.
4. We don't have good enough point guard play.
5. K is a good motivator, but poor coach.
6. Its easy to beat Duke if you play D and rebound.
7. We can't put pressure on the ball.
8. We don't recruit well and need to get some more athletes and big men.
9. I don't see how we can go beyond the 1st weekend of the tourney even though 12 hours ago I was talking about us going undefeated.
10. Duke is pretty crappy.

That about cover it?

We shot 35 3s and 26 2s, so by any reasonable measure we did actually shoot too many 3s last night. But that's not necessarily the issue - rushed 3s late in the shot clock were the problem.

[JMarley50]

I think a lot of it has to do with the little things he doesn't do or does wrong (tries to block shots he shouldn't rather than boxing out, slow on defensive rotations, almost never boxes out and just tries to outjump everybody, etc...)

Low IQ mistakes tend to upset people a lot more than other mistakes. It also becomes even more frustrating because of the flashes of brilliance exhibited.

There were actually a few rebounds he didn't even jump after last night. He waited on the ball to come to him numerous times. My wife even noticed it! He could have easily had 20 boards with a little effort.

I counted about 3 1/2 times that he actually sprinted the floor. Sadly those were on offense and not hustling back on D. Everybody is blaming the guards for not getting him the ball. While sometimes that is the case, its not always. If they would watch Mason a little closer they would realize that he don't get the ball because he don't fight for position. He tries to post up, and if the defender makes any effort at all to fight around him, he gives up. In fact, a good portion of the time on offense he is standing straight up and wandering around looking for an open area (if he's not attempting weak ball screens). At this level post players have to seal their man and create their own space. He avoids contact whenever possible (unless he reaching in 90ft away from the basket of course).

I still can't figure out what he's doing when he hedges on ball screens. I think he forgets he's supposed to stop and return to his man. Sometimes he just runs right on by the ball too. If I was an opposing coach, I would run pick and rolls with whoever Mason is guarding all night long. It creates problems 90% of the time.

I wonder if Coach K left him in so long just to send a message? Maybe he and Miles will realize that this is what happens and will continue to happen if they keep giving the effort they are currently giving. I want to see them play angry and motivated.

I still have faith that the ship can be turned around and the season can turn out very special. But I am extremely disappointed with what I am seeing right now. Without a true post presence this team becomes almost one dimensional, and very vulnerable.

[Sgt. Dingleberry]

I still can't figure out what he's doing when he hedges on ball screens. I think he forgets he's supposed to stop and return to his man. Sometimes he just runs right on by the ball too. If I was an opposing coach, I would run pick and rolls with whoever Mason is guarding all night long. It creates problems 90% of the time.

People rip Mason all the time and I think most of it is overblown. But, I definitely agree with you on your point above. The dagger in the game was Singleton's 3 from the top of the key when Mason just got lost. Nolan just threw up his arms, like he was asking "How does he get that open?" I think it is just confidence in understanding the schematics of defense and his assignments. The kid is a sophomore. He will get it eventually.

The analogy I always think of with Mason is a young colt running around a field. They are gawky and a little out of control. But, you can see that at some point they are going to grow into their bodies, understand their talents and become a graceful animal that has control of their tremendous athletic abilities.

[ncexnyc]

WOW! I'm not sure where to start. SInce I was at work last night and followed both the in game thread and Game Tracker I thought we were completely embarassed based on the posts I was reading. Then I get home and read the first few pages of the post game thread and thought I had stumbled onto a midnight showing of, "Lord of the Rings", there were so many friggin trolls on here. I finally get around to sitting down and watching my DVR'd copy of the game and I see something totally different. I decided to sleep on it, so here I am now with some observations.

We could have won this game. For all the talk of poor play we were right there at the end. FSU is a very physical team and it showed last night. That's their style and that is also the way the officials let the game be played, which is fine if we make the adjustment and match them, but either we couldn't or wouldn't. If you get a chance to rewatch the game, focus in on how many times a Duke big ends up on the floor during under the basket action.

The length of the FSU players bothered Curry and Dawkins. Both kids had poor shooting nights while they had some open shots which didn't fall, they didn't have their normal wide open looks as FSU did a good job of getting a hand in their faces the vast majority of the time. This is probably a combination of poor screening and poor off the ball movement. There were many who downplayed the loss of Lance and Brian, but they set some bone crunching screens which didn't translate to the stat sheet, they are sorely missed. The staff needs to compile a video of JJ's off ball movement and have Dre and Seth watch and learn. Both kids have the talent, but need to work harder at getting a clean look.

The defense is still a tad out of sync. I'm not sure why, but it seems the help doesn't get there on time or is a tad out of position, which results in an easy dump off. Hopefully more reps cures this.

The final point is post play. Several of us Debbie Downers have mentioned this since the Miami game, but have been told we didn't have a clue what we were talking about, but when the broadcasters point this out then I think we have a problem. Again, no one is expecting the second coming of Jabbar or Walton, but for the love of God, how about making a handful of stick backs.

Again, this game could have been won. With a few tweaks and some improvement both as a team and individually the sky is the limit for this group.

[gls6]

I thought it was a good game. It's too bad we lost, but we had a chance and they just never went away. I thought the shot selection was off, but this team hasn't had many chances to play from behind and so there was an element of panic. I'm just glad that we are in ACC season and are done yawning through games against Colgate, Elon, and Bradley. This team is still good and it was just kind of an off night. FSU played well and I want to give them credit.

[JMarley50]

People rip Mason all the time and I think most of it is overblown. But, I definitely agree with you on your point above. The dagger in the game was Singleton's 3 from the top of the key when Mason just got lost. Nolan just threw up his arms, like he was asking "How does he get that open?" I think it is just confidence in understanding the schematics of defense and his assignments. The kid is a sophomore. He will get it eventually.

The analogy I always think of with Mason is a young colt running around a field. They are gawky and a little out of control. But, you can see that at some point they are going to grow into their bodies, understand their talents and become a graceful animal that has control of their tremendous athletic abilities.

I like the analogy and can definitely see your point. I think that is what gets people so frustrated with Mason (including myself). He is sooo capable physically. He is just not putting it to use right now. Its funny you noticed Nolan do that, I saw Kyle glare at Mason several times over the same thing. He would just switch off when Kyle obviously didn't call for a switch. Then his man would just flash wide open. I thought it said a lot that you could actually see Kyle getting frustrated with him. Kyle usually don't show a lot of emotion. Then there was a couple of times where Kyle was directing Mason where to go on offense, he looked so lost. He is just thinking way too much.

[UrinalCake]

I understand the frustrations around the Plumlees, but Mason did have 14 boards. If Zoubek had done that in a game last year while scoring zero points, we would have been thrilled. We just have different expectations from Mason. At any rate, I'm getting kind of tired of all the talk about not having Z, not having Irving, not having another inside guy, etc. We're going to battle with the guys we have, and there's no sense pining for what we don't.

On that note, I think we need to move Nolan off the ball. He is much more effective when he doesn't have to worry about trying to create for others. Maybe have Seth at least dribble the ball down the court, and try to get Tyler in for a few minutes. This would take a little pressure of Nolan.

[Saratoga2]

This year we have the luxury of two senior players giving us points. We also had Irving to take the place of Scheyer to give us a lot of scoring punch. Bad luck to see him out.

Its kind of early to bring this up, but next year we will have the same post players, albeit a little more experienced, and we will have to replace the bulk of the scoring. Will Kyrie come back?

We have elements of some point production with Andre and Seth, but much of the scoring will have to come from the Freshman class. By all accounts Austin is the real deal, so we will also need performance from Quinn and Michael. I don't expect much from Marshall in his first year. It will be tough to rely on Freshmen for a large portion of the scoring.

So despite a loss againt FSU, this year we still have two experienced and excellent players and scorers to be thankful for.

[MChambers]

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/21092/duke-is-not-and-was-never-unbeatable

[ncexnyc]

I understand the frustrations around the Plumlees, but Mason did have 14 boards. If Zoubek had done that in a game last year while scoring zero points, we would have been thrilled. We just have different expectations from Mason. At any rate, I'm getting kind of tired of all the talk about not having Z, not having Irving, not having another inside guy, etc. We're going to battle with the guys we have, and there's no sense pining for what we don't.
.

Well I guess that makes us even, as I'm tired of hearing about all this untapped potential some of these kids supposedly have:D

[OldPhiKap]

http://espn.go.com/blog/collegebasketballnation/post/_/id/21092/duke-is-not-and-was-never-unbeatable

Other than being wrong about Chuck Taylors going out of style, she's pretty much spot on.

[jv001]

Note that our last two games have both been against top 10 defenses according to kenpom. I think that has a lot to do with what you saw from our offense. Doesn't mean we shouldn't continue to work on our game, but give our opponents some props.

we will see these type defenses in tournament play. So why not get ready for those games by working on how to score when we aren't hitting contested 3s. I don't mind shooting 3s, but I don't like shooting so many contested ones. Go Duke!

[Kedsy]

Nolan has got to distribute and be the leader on the offensive end better than he has the last few games. It seems as if ever since all this talk of him being a NPOY candidate has come up, he has been reading his own headlines a little too much. In the last few games, he has been forcing his offense at questionable times and not really looking for his teammates(excluding Kyle) on a regular basis.

In the two games since we started talking about Nolan as a NPOY candidate, he has averaged 18.5 points a game, 6.5 assists, 3.8 rebounds, and 3.0 steals, which quite frankly are NPOY-like numbers. I understand his shooting percentage has been down in those games, but with 6.5 apg it's not like he never passed the ball.


I mentioned last night that I thought we were outrebounded, which was not correct. I guess the impression was because they got 10 offensive rebounds while we got very few.

According to the official box score (https://www.nmnathletics.com//pdf8/732289.pdf?ATCLID=205075988&SPSID=22724&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200), we got 14 offensive rebounds. So you're not correct about this, either.


I think we are going to (or at least should) start seeing a lot more of Tyler Thornton. He's probably the 5 or 6th best scoring option (behind Smith, Singler, Dawkins, Curry and Mason/Kelly) but he is a competent pass first guard who can establish some order in our offense. He is also an excellent on-the-ball defender. We need him out there.

I think it's funny how before the season started people were saying Seth Curry was going to start ahead of Nolan and now they're saying he should be benched for Tyler.


I also see a case for giving Hairston some burn. Who knows what goes on at practice, but in limited minutes I see a guy who blocks out, rebounds well, and has some touch in the paint. He cannot be a huge drop off from the Plumlees on either side of the ball, and you never know what you might get.

Rebounds per 40 minutes
------------------------
Mason 11.61
Miles 10.85
Josh 8.38

Shooting Percentage
--------------------
Mason 54.5%
Miles 50.0%
Josh 40.0%

Plus Josh is 6'7" while Mason and Miles are both 6'10". Yes, Josh hustles, and he's going to be a heckuva player for us someday. But right now, sorry, he would be a "huge drop off" on both sides of the ball.


With less than 5 seconds left, Duke had the ball in the corner. I can't remember who was shooting (Singler or Dawkins), but they got their man up in the air, and took a shot, creating significant (think hockey hip check) contact on the play with no foul called. A foul would have created the potential to win or tie the game (sink two, miss the third, rebound effectively and score). Albeit, this is incredibly unlikely to happen, but I don't like the refs swallowing their whistles in the last few seconds to "let them play." I understand ignoring some hand checks by a losing team trying to extend a game they have no chance in, but ignoring a potentially game changing and obvious foul by the winning team is frustrating.

Not that this cost Duke the game, but it did cost them an opportunity to make up for mistakes earlier in the game. Anyone else notice this?

Yes, I noticed it, and it was wrong. But we were losing by 5 at the time and had no legitimate chance to win, so it really didn't matter so much.


Without KI available, this statement is highly debatable. The addition of Thorton, Hairston, and Curry are not an obvious talent upgrade to Scheyer, Thomas, and Zoubek, at least not yet. The new trio may indeed have more inherent ability, but until it's developed enough to consistently produce, Duke is more vulnerable.

This year's Nolan and Kyle are waaaaay better than last year's model. This year's Andre and Ryan are so much better you can't even make a legitimate comparison. And despite all the disparagement, this year's Mason and Miles are better too. When you compare teams from different years you can't just talk about who left and who's new. Even without Kyrie this Duke team is worlds better than last year's team.

And, by the way, last year's team was plenty vulnerable -- they couldn't beat a team that went 4-out, 1-in, like Wisconsin, NC State, and Georgetown. I'd say they were significantly more vulnerable than this year's team. The good news was we didn't have to face such a team in our march to the national championship.


There were actually a few rebounds he didn't even jump after last night. He waited on the ball to come to him numerous times. My wife even noticed it! He could have easily had 20 boards with a little effort.

Well, there 82 rebounding opportunities in the game; why couldn't he get them all? Seriously, the guy was the leading rebounder on either team and you act like it was some sort of accident. If you only look at the bad and ignore the good, you'll think every player on every team stinks.


Right now we are not at the same level as a Kansas, just as an example.

You mean the Kansas team that Michigan took to overtime on Saturday and who last night beat Iowa State by 5? Yeah, that's a whole 'nother level, all right.

[TheRob8801]

So, for those completely dismissing certain aspects of this loss:


Stagnant half-court offense
Weak defense
Lack of toughness
Out played & out gameplanned


Are we REALLY just saying FSU was the better team and moving on?

What concerns me is that in 80% of Duke's losses over the past handful of seasons a few consistent variables continue to show up. Mainly a lack of defense in the paint, an inability to create offense in the half-court and what looks like a complete lack of focus when the going gets tough.

Now, granted. There's always a few extra variables that go into that and are typically a career game by an opponent and/or a poor shooting night from 3. In THIS game however, Duke didn't shoot great from 3 but wasn't as far below average on the whole as usual in a loss. In THIS game, Kitchen had a phenomenal game, but he didn't put up the all-world career numbers we typically see in an upset of this fashion.

What that says to me is that there's a serious deficiency in the way this team plays against tougher, larger, more determined teams. Now, I'm hoping just like all of you that this is the only learning experience they need to right the ship, but I'm not going to simply dismiss this game as an anomaly and continue on my merry way. K got out-coached. That's hard to argue. FSU's gameplan was consistent and executed flawlessly. Duke got out-played. FSU's toughness was overwhelming and Duke had no answer for their size and determination. These are not things that simply "happen".

It's all been discussed already in this thread and others and will continue to be discussed but there IS middle ground between "the sky is falling" and "ereting gon be airee".

Just sayin' ;)

Go Devils.

[Bluealum]

I understand the frustrations around the Plumlees, but Mason did have 14 boards. If Zoubek had done that in a game last year while scoring zero points, we would have been thrilled. We just have different expectations from Mason. At any rate, I'm getting kind of tired of all the talk about not having Z, not having Irving, not having another inside guy, etc. We're going to battle with the guys we have, and there's no sense pining for what we don't.

On that note, I think we need to move Nolan off the ball. He is much more effective when he doesn't have to worry about trying to create for others. Maybe have Seth at least dribble the ball down the court, and try to get Tyler in for a few minutes. This would take a little pressure of Nolan.

A little tangent to get away from obsessing about a close away loss when the other team played very well and we were noticeably off....

I find it intriguing that we are all wired to give some players more rope than others, because we like something about them. I am not sure what makes different people react so differently to each player. For example:

When Kyle misses shots, I want him to shoot more. I think he generally takes good shots and works his butt off on the court.

When Nolan dribbles into a crowd and hoists a tough shot without looking for others it drives me nuts, even when he makes it. This even though I think Nolan has improved dramatically over four years and is the glue guy for this team.

When Andre dribbles and gets stripped, I think he needs the reps and should keep doing it because he needs to do that to be able to get open 3 looks from defenders worried about his drive.

When Seth drives and gets blocked/stripped I am much more likely to get annoyed. I don't think he will ever be great at finishing near the rim.

When Mason looks out of place and apathetic on defense, allowing his man to get easy shots near the basket, I get steamed.

When his Miles is unable to secure a rebound and make a chippy near the basket, I think he needs to keep trying it, he will get better and he really has the best interior defensive potential on the team.

When Hairston looks a bit wild on offense and gets blocked (small sample size), I am not pumped, when Tyler is in there and slows things down a bit with the ball, I appreciate his calm demeanor even if it has a cost.

I feel strongly about all of these....and I am not sure why. Bringing it back full circle to Zoubek...

I always gave Zoubs the benefit of the doubt and wanted him out there more. I rarely gave Lance the credit he deserved for this hustle and leadership, and some of his missed shots dove me nuts.

It's fun to read these threads because our internal biases come out, what is really interesting, and unexplored is why we develop these unique biases for a group of guys we all support.

If you've got a theory I'd love to hear it. Anyway...back to the regularly scheduled venting...

[UrinalCake]

Bluealum, I agree that we all have biases towards certain players. Some of it is what we think we know about them on a personal level, and some of it is based on what we've seen them do in the past. Some of it is just aesthetics. I never wanted Chris Carrawell to dribble the ball. He was so awkward that I was sure he would turn it over every time. And I always wanted Wojo to shoot more, mainly because he never did. In the case of Zoubek, I think we liked him because of his humble personality and willingness to do the grunt work, while we also felt sorry for him because of the injuries early in his career.

I also think that our perception of last year's team is very much colored by the fact that they won it all. Had we lost to Baylor in the Elite 8 (which wouldn't have been that much of a stretch), I don't think we would be spending this year pining for Z and Lance to return, even if the rest of their season had gone exactly the same. In reality last year's team had its deficiencies, just as this year's team does. We'll have to see if they can pull it all together in the end.

[Kedsy]

I also think that our perception of last year's team is very much colored by the fact that they won it all. Had we lost to Baylor in the Elite 8 (which wouldn't have been that much of a stretch), I don't think we would be spending this year pining for Z and Lance to return, even if the rest of their season had gone exactly the same. In reality last year's team had its deficiencies, just as this year's team does. We'll have to see if they can pull it all together in the end.

I completely agree with this. Similarly, if the 2006 team had squeaked by LSU (and then handled a Texas team we'd already beaten by 31), people wouldn't be saying this team looks like 2006 and mean it as a deadly insult.

At this time last year, a sizable contingent on this board were clamoring for Lance to be benched and Z to not play at all, so that the obviously better Plumlees could get more minutes.

[Monmouth77]

I think it's funny how before the season started people were saying Seth Curry was going to start ahead of Nolan and now they're saying he should be benched for Tyler.

****

I am quite sure I never suggested that Curry should start ahead of Nolan Smith. Not sure which "people" you may be referring to.

I do think it undeniable, however, that b/c of Irving's injury we now lack effective point guard play. Thornton seems to me to be the one healthy player on the roster who might provide it. And I didn't say Curry should be "benched." My observation is that his skill set does not compliment, but instead duplicates Nolan Smith's skill set.

I believe I also suggested (depending on the matchup) experimenting with a 3 guard set where we play Thornton, Smith and Curry (or Dawkins) at the same time. There is a lot of firepower and fierce defensive pressure in that approach.

****




Rebounds per 40 minutes
------------------------
Mason 11.61
Miles 10.85
Josh 8.38

Shooting Percentage
--------------------
Mason 54.5%
Miles 50.0%
Josh 40.0%

Plus Josh is 6'7" while Mason and Miles are both 6'10". Yes, Josh hustles, and he's going to be a heckuva player for us someday. But right now, sorry, he would be a "huge drop off" on both sides of the ball.

****

We have a post-scoring problem. The tiny statistical sample size we have for Hairston (100 total minutes) does not convince me that Hairston would be a "huge drop-off" from the Plumlee brothers. Hairston is an unknown, and he is a freshman, but the fact is that our 3 bigs combined to score 3 points in the paint last night. Even zero is not a "huge drop off" from 1.

[superdave]

We finished the first half with a 7-0 FSU run, right? I believe we were up 24-21, then down 28-24 at half. If many of these slugfests are determined by momentum changes, then there's your huckleberry. Outside of that run, the game was dead even.

Super "Looking forward to UVa so we can stop over-analyzing this one" Dave

[77devil]

I would disagree. Without KI, we are still more talented. The addition of the new players, coupled with the improvement of Dawkins, Kelly, and the Plumlees make us much better than last year.


This year's Nolan and Kyle are waaaaay better than last year's model. This year's Andre and Ryan are so much better you can't even make a legitimate comparison. And despite all the disparagement, this year's Mason and Miles are better too. When you compare teams from different years you can't just talk about who left and who's new. Even without Kyrie this Duke team is worlds better than last year's team.

My response was to a post that stated this year's team is much more talented-not better. There's a difference.

From Websters, Talent:

a special natural ability or aptitude, a capacity for achievement or success; ability.

I originally responded that without KI the more talent assertion is debatable. I would agree that this team without KI has the potential to be better than last year's. However, improvements made this year by players who were on last year's team does not equal more talent. Does anybody read carefully anymore?

I'm not sure how to define "worlds better," but I'm guessing you mean that this year's team w/o KI would beat last year's 7 to 8 times out of 10. That's about as unsubstantiated as rhetoric gets.

[OldPhiKap]

Are we REALLY just saying FSU was the better team and moving on?

Last night, yes. They outplayed us at home and deserved the win. ACC ball.


What concerns me is that in 80% of Duke's losses over the past handful of seasons a few consistent variables continue to show up. Mainly a lack of defense in the paint, an inability to create offense in the half-court and what looks like a complete lack of focus when the going gets tough.

If I am adding correctly, in the last three and a half years our record is 108-19 (or an 85% win rate). So if the point is that, over the last three and a half years, we've lost about 4-5 games a year by getting outplayed in the paint and getting a bit rattled, I'm not sure that is bad for a college ream. Better'n most by a long shot, and pretty darn good considering we have not had a dominant inside scorer since Sheldon moved on.

I hate to lose, but losses come. I don't think it's a secret that our strength is outside, and sometimes the shots don't fall. C'est la vie.

[elvis14]

I haven't read any of the 133 posts before this one so forgive me if I'm repeating anything. I'm pretty disappointed in the loss. A few thoughts:


We need to be able to defend better either on the perimeter or in the paint. Seemed like we got beat off the dribble all night and the help was either late or weak. Mason played a lot of minutes and it just seemed like he got caught in between all night.
We set lots of picks on the perimeter. I would like to see us roll to hoop off some of those picks and make an entry pass for either a shot in the paint or an extra pass to whoever's open once they rotate to cover the guy rolling off the pick. I say that because all our picks kept the ball outside tonight unless Nolan took it to the rim and he wasn't effective at that tonight.


Just wanted to post and say that now that it's not super late I have gone back and read everyone's responses. Lots of negatives, as expected, but there's some good discussion on here as well. My main take right now is that last night's game was not great but it's a great teaching moment for our staff and players.

I still see an issue with Mason last night on the defensive end and that's him getting caught in the middle too much. Either commit to stopping the drive and clogging the passing lane or stay with your man and block him out. Mason seemed to get caught in between and do neither.

Do we need to take more mid-range jumpers in a game like this?

[Kedsy]

I am quite sure I never suggested that Curry should start ahead of Nolan Smith. Not sure which "people" you may be referring to.

I do think it undeniable, however, that b/c of Irving's injury we now lack effective point guard play. Thornton seems to me to be the one healthy player on the roster who might provide it. And I didn't say Curry should be "benched." My observation is that his skill set does not compliment, but instead duplicates Nolan Smith's skill set.

I believe I also suggested (depending on the matchup) experimenting with a 3 guard set where we play Thornton, Smith and Curry (or Dawkins) at the same time. There is a lot of firepower and fierce defensive pressure in that approach.

I never said you advocated starting Seth ahead of Nolan, but several others did before the season started. You are also not the only person now pushing for Tyler to play more.

The thing is, while a lineup with Tyler/Nolan/Andre/Kyle/big would work defensively (because Andre has shown himself capable of guarding standard-sized college SFs), an undersized lineup of Tyler/Nolan/Seth/Kyle/big would be at a huge disadvantage defensively and really couldn't stay on the floor for any significant amount of time. This means that, realistically, the only way Tyler can get minutes is at Seth's expense. So, while you didn't use the word "benched," you effectively called for it.


We have a post-scoring problem. The tiny statistical sample size we have for Hairston (100 total minutes) does not convince me that Hairston would be a "huge drop-off" from the Plumlee brothers. Hairston is an unknown, and he is a freshman, but the fact is that our 3 bigs combined to score 3 points in the paint last night. Even zero is not a "huge drop off" from 1.

As bad as you think the others are, Josh at this stage of his career is a much less efficient offensive player. He's a much less effective rebounder, and he would have more problems defending bigger players than the Plumlees.

I am not attempting to speak for you, but I think some people advocate playing freshmen exactly because they are unknown, and not because they actually deserve to be playing.

[ncexnyc]

[QUOTE=Kedsy;464494]


I think it's funny how before the season started people were saying Seth Curry was going to start ahead of Nolan and now they're saying he should be benched for Tyler.

****

I am quite sure I never suggested that Curry should start ahead of Nolan Smith. Not sure which "people" you may be referring to.

I do think it undeniable, however, that b/c of Irving's injury we now lack effective point guard play. Thornton seems to me to be the one healthy player on the roster who might provide it. And I didn't say Curry should be "benched." My observation is that his skill set does not compliment, but instead duplicates Nolan Smith's skill set.

I believe I also suggested (depending on the matchup) experimenting with a 3 guard set where we play Thornton, Smith and Curry (or Dawkins) at the same time. There is a lot of firepower and fierce defensive pressure in that approach.

****

[QUOTE=Kedsy;464494]

Rebounds per 40 minutes
------------------------
Mason 11.61
Miles 10.85
Josh 8.38

Shooting Percentage
--------------------
Mason 54.5%
Miles 50.0%
Josh 40.0%

Plus Josh is 6'7" while Mason and Miles are both 6'10". Yes, Josh hustles, and he's going to be a heckuva player for us someday. But right now, sorry, he would be a "huge drop off" on both sides of the ball.

****

We have a post-scoring problem. The tiny statistical sample size we have for Hairston (100 total minutes) does not convince me that Hairston would be a "huge drop-off" from the Plumlee brothers. Hairston is an unknown, and he is a freshman, but the fact is that our 3 bigs combined to score 3 points in the paint last night. Even zero is not a "huge drop off" from 1.

I'm sure Kedsy will be along shortly to acknowledge the fact that he wasn't saying you made the Curry/Smith comment. He is just trying to make a point, which I'm sure he'll explain to you.

As to your point about Hairston. From what I've seen of his play, he does appear to have some of the basics of post play down, such as sealing his man so he can get a good entry pass. Of course the sample size is so small that it's hard to tell if this would translate into improved play by the team if he got the start. Let's be honest, Coach K isn't shy about benching a player. He had no qualms about benching Paulus and both Miles and Mason found their way behind Lance and Brian last year. I trust that Josh just isn't getting it done in practice, but rest assured if either Tyler or Josh pick up their game they will find more playing time.

Last year this team had the Big 3, right now we're down to 2. Someone needs to pick=up the slack.

PS Our point guard play is just fine, Nolan has done quite well, but he can't do both roles all by himself.

I see he beat me too it.

[Duvall]

Well, at least we probably got Leonard Hamilton another contract extension...

The true tragedy of this game. The ACC suffered a real blow yesterday.

[devil84]

One other thing I was thinking about, and even noticed last night - none of the freshman have ever had to play in an end-game situation when they are down and trying to catch back up. I'm sure they've practiced it, but this is the first game situation where they faced a consistent deficit, and needed to get points in a hurry at the end.

Unfortunately, it didn't work out, but this should reinforce principles the coaches are pushing in practice for all the freshman. And for the upperclassman, this is a good refresher...since it has been about 10 months since they've dealt with this scenario.

So, while I thought the end-game play by Duke was sub par last night, it shouldn't be surprising, since this is the first time that particular skill-set was challenged for the team this year. I think this will eliminate some of the panic and mental mistakes in the future.

Duke often plays from ahead at end of game situations, running the delay offense and shooting FTs. So it's good experience for all to play from behind on both ends of the court. I like that we trusted our D and didnt just foul them. I dont like that we shot contested 26 footers a number of times. I think pushing the ball up court and getting to the rim when there's 60 or 90 seconds on the clock is a better idea. But yeah, Butler was a close finish last year, right?

What peterjswift said. Prior to this game, this team hadn't been behind very much. There's little experience to draw on, as a team, for how to handle end-of-game situations. You can practice it all you want, but it's a very, very different animal when you're in an opponent's stadium against a team that can make a huge name for itself by beating undefeated #1. I think the game video will be broken down numerous times and provide a great learning experience.

Yes, Butler was a close finish last year, but that close finish ended up with confetti raining down, trophies presented, cool t-shirts, a trip to the White House and other adulation. A rematch turned out to be vastly in favor of Duke. That's slightly different than having to get out of the way of hundreds of fans rushing the court in their glee, celebrating knocking off the mighty, and previously undefeated, #1 team and seeing every media outlet, even Good Morning America (a program that only mentions the most notable sporting events), talk about your loss.

FSU has been playing stellar defense all year. They've knocked off Duke a number of times in previous years. Last night, they came out with intensity and played an EXCELLENT game. Our offensive stats are down largely because they played great defense.

Meanwhile, our team is making lots of little mistakes that are magnified by great D by FSU. But unlike previous games, the level of play isn't enough to keep us ahead. Duke falls five points short of a win -- it was within reach! Now they know what happens when they <fill in your favorite rant for each player> and each individual's lapses add up. Nobody gets the night off. If everyone steps up their game a little bit and stops that <favorite rant> just a couple of times per game, that was a comfy win instead of having to avoid the court rushing at the end of the game.

Experience is key. Up until last night, their experience was that even if everyone made some mistakes, the effort was good enough. Last night was a wake up call. Better now than in March, IMHO!

Rest assured that the players are affected by this loss more than we are. They do NOT want this to happen again. Most of those guys have enjoyed a championship and DEFINITELY want to do it again. There's a ridiculous amount of talent and potential on that floor, and they are progressing. But progress isn't always a nice, linear/exponential upward trend. I think we'll see a slightly different intensity in the next game.

[Kedsy]

My response was to a post that stated this year's team is much more talented-not better. There's a difference.

From Websters, Talent:

a special natural ability or aptitude, a capacity for achievement or success; ability.

I originally responded that without KI the more talent assertion is debatable. I would agree that this team without KI has the potential to be better than last year's. However, improvements this year by players who were on last year's team does not equal more talent. Does anybody read carefully anymore?

Well, I do try to read carefully. If you'd rather use the phrase "more ability" instead of "better," I stand by my statement. Every player on this team has more ability to play basketball than they did last year. Thus, per Websters, improvements by players from last year's team does mean more talent, and the players (and the team) are more talented.

Incidentally, there's a difference between reading carefully and parsing words. Based on my reading of the original post, while he said "more talented," he clearly meant "better." Or maybe he meant "more ability," which in my mind amounts to the same thing, whether you or Webster's say so or not.


I'm not sure how to define "worlds better," but I'm guessing you mean that this year's team would beat last year's 7 to 8 times out of 10. That's about as unsubstantiated rhetoric as it gets.

Almost as unsubstantiated as deciding that "worlds better" means 7 or 8 out of 10?

[Dopeshop]

Observations from someone NOT a strategy guru. Will the Plumlees become reliable parts of the offense ? I rarely see them in the paint hunkered down for a bounce pass and a trip to the basket. A couple of efforts were made during the Terp game and were swatted away easily by Williams. If the ball does go in the paint to them ,the best we seem to get is Miles' hook shot. They do patrol outside for screens ,but not many pick and rolls to the hoop.

I try to keep in mind the marginal development of Thomas and Z UNTIL their senior year,when both learned never to bring the ball below your shoulders after an offensive rebound, only go back up if you have a dunk,AND your first option is to kick it out to a shooter. Miles missed 3-4 chances to kick it out during the MD game ,but Mason seemed more willing to do it last night.

Also, in the case of Mason ,have we ever had a player shooting less than 40% free throws ?

[SharkD]

After reading through 11 pages of missives about the Blue Devils being out-coached, out-played, out-recruited and out-of-hope, I'd like to chip in with my insightful and reasoned argument:

1816
LOUD NOISES!

Somehow, I have faith that the second-all-time-winningest coach in NCAA history knows what he's doing.

I believe that FSU's excellent defense truly disrupted and frustrated our offense and that our second-half play was far better than the first 20 minutes.

I know that we're a slower and less explosive team without #1 on the court, but that we're still a very, very talented team that is still a likely contender for the National Championship (but let's worry about playing in January, before we start talking about winning in April.)

Besides, things could be far worse -- we could've been rooting for these guys:
1817

Next play!

[trinity92]

I don't think the loss in and of itself is a big deal. In general, I don't think individual wins and losses are particularly important, up until the postseason. After all, since 1976, every national champion has lost games: Paraphrasing Crash Davis, going undefeated is kind of fascist anyway.

However, the way in which we lost is certainly cause for concern. If we had somehow won the game at the very end, I might be happy with our toughness, but I wouldn't have been happy with the win, "happiness" in this instance meaning a growing sense of confidence in our playing style and an increasingly bright outlook for the NCAA tournament. Similarly, our previous two ACC wins did not make me "happy"-- it's quite obvious we need more inside offense, or at least the ability to run the offense through our post a bit, even if we end up kicking outside eventually for the shot. It's my hope the Plumlees and Kelly can make the necessary progress as the season progresses. Given the huge strides Zoubek and Lance made last year, we have cause to believe that can happen. The sky isn't close to falling, but history has shown us there needs to be more balance for a team to succeed in March and April. As many have mentioned, sometimes there are good losses, except in the Tourney. Count me among those who look at a loss as BAD (or at least aren't content to "next play" the loss blithely) when it features/illuminates a glaring weakness that if left unaddressed will make us very vulnerable to a loss in the tourney much earlier than we would like.

Having said that, I'm surprised the team's great rebounding performance hasn't gotten more love here. We outrebounded (by one) a team that should outrebound us, on paper. As a matter of fact, I think it was only our excellent rebounding that kept us in the game and gave us a chance down the stretch. That's definitely cause for confidence going forward and something for our big guys to build on.

[Kedsy]

Also, in the case of Mason ,have we ever had a player shooting less than 40% free throws ?

Chris Burgess shot 33.8% from the line in 1997-98.

[sagegrouse]

Chris Burgess shot 33.8% from the line in 1997-98.

Burgess used to shoot his free throws while falling backwards. I am sure the coaches would have killed him if he did that in practice (Can you say 20 end-to-ends?). I have no idea how he got into the habit during games.

sagegrouse

[devildeac]

Chris Burgess shot 33.8% from the line in 1997-98.

Billy King

84-85: 32.5% (13 of 40)
85-86: 46.7%
86-87: 54.7% (no typo:o)
87-88: 48.5%

Career: 47.9%

[davekay1971]

I'm not getting worried until FSU doesn't storm the court after beating us.

As for last night's game, it reaffirmed that we're going to struggle when we aren't hitting from outside, but we already knew that. Is there a way to get more consistent offensive production from the low post? More set plays, isolation, for RK, MP, or MP? Drive and dish (assuming Nolan or Seth can develop into drive-and-dish point guards in the next month)? I'll defer to Coach K to figure out if that's a need to be filled, and how best to do it. One thing that all those criticizng Mason need to credit is that he was stellar in one of the major jobs of a post man, rebounding.

It was a bad game for us, obviously. So far I don't see a terribly alarming trend. We handled a weaker ACC opponent handily in Miami. We fought Maryland well, were able to limit Jordan Williams enough to post a solid win. Next up is UVa at home, a game we should be well suited to handle.

As Coach K basically said after the game, we're a good team, not great, and learning how to grow into, hopefully, a great team without Kyrie.

The only thing we lost last night was an undefeated season. The three most meaningful goals remain in sight: ACC regular season crown, ACC conference championship, and NCAAT championship. We've got things to work on between now and March, which is fine for mid-January.

[UrinalCake]

Will the Plumlees become reliable parts of the offense? ... I try to keep in mind the marginal development of Thomas and Z UNTIL their senior year,when both learned never to bring the ball below your shoulders after an offensive rebound, only go back up if you have a dunk,AND your first option is to kick it out to a shooter

Maybe I'm hallucinating, but Zoubek and Thomas were NEVER reliable parts of our offense, at least in terms of scoring. If you took their box score numbers from the second half of last season and compared it to the Plumlees's numbers from last night, they'd probably be somewhat similar.

I do agree that there are certain fundamentals that the Plumlees (Mason in particular) have yet to grasp, and we can certainly hold out hope for a lightbulb moment to occur. Maybe this game will serve as a wakeup call. We'll see...

[hudlow]

Nobody got hurt.

[Bluealum]

I completely agree with this. Similarly, if the 2006 team had squeaked by LSU (and then handled a Texas team we'd already beaten by 31), people wouldn't be saying this team looks like 2006 and mean it as a deadly insult.

At this time last year, a sizable contingent on this board were clamoring for Lance to be benched and Z to not play at all, so that the obviously better Plumlees could get more minutes.

Great point made by UrinalCake and you, our memories are disproportionately colored by the final result. How would we have viewed the 1992 team if 'the shot' did not fall? Would Grant be the unquestioned greatest Duke player ever (still in the running in my view) if his 3 dropped against Arkansas in 1994 and we went on to win our 3rd title?

The final book on the Plumlee's has yet to be written, not to mention this year's team. It's fun to watch them develop and see the unexpected twists and turns of a season.

ACC season sure looked like a breeze before we had two tough home wins and an away loss... No telling what will happen in the next 10 weeks or so!

[_Gary]

You mean the Kansas team that Michigan took to overtime on Saturday and who last night beat Iowa State by 5? Yeah, that's a whole 'nother level, all right.

OK, smarty-pants. You can say that right now, but I'm telling you that if the NCAA's were today and we had to play a team like Kansas, I don't think we'd be favored and I wouldn't feel confident about a win. If you think Duke is still the team to beat then you're free to have that opinion. But just remember that I'm not the only one saying this team took a huge hit when Kyrie went down. Coach K feels the same way. Yes, this team can progress and be much, much better in March (even sans Kyrie), but right now we are NOT a great team. We were when Irving was in the lineup.

[Kedsy]

OK, smarty-pants. You can say that right now, but I'm telling you that if the NCAA's were today and we had to play a team like Kansas, I don't think we'd be favored and I wouldn't feel confident about a win. If you think Duke is still the team to beat then you're free to have that opinion. But just remember that I'm not the only one saying this team took a huge hit when Kyrie went down. Coach K feels the same way. Yes, this team can progress and be much, much better in March (even sans Kyrie), but right now we are NOT a great team. We were when Irving was in the lineup.

I wouldn't argue with any of this. My point was that Kansas and Ohio State are currently experiencing similar struggles to our own. Even without Kyrie, if we played either of them 10 times my guess is we'd win 4 to 6 times. If we play them once? I have no idea what would happen.

Put another way, I don't know if Duke is "the team to beat," but I don't know that Kansas or Ohio State is, either. And there's certainly not anybody else I'd put into the conversation. Just because we're not comfortable that we'd beat a team in a one-game format doesn't mean they're "on another level."

[Bluedevil114]

Every time North Carolina loses a game I really enjoy going on IC and reading about all the fans jumping ship. It is almost a hobby of mine especially with all their struggles the last couple seasons. This thread is really reminding me a lot of the UNC boards. We will be ok. Duke won 25 games in a row. The last three ACC games have not been our strongest but that is why we all have put our faith in Coach K and the staff to correct our weaknesses. We act as fans as we are the only ones that see our deficiencies. We have a great coaching staff and they will get the interrior corrected. It will be Hairston, Kelly or the Plumlees but two of them will step up and give us the production we need. Dawkins was 1-8 from three point range. He was shooting over 50% from beyond the arc. Games like this happen.

We will be ok. Our goal was never to go undefeated. Our goal is to win the ACC, ACC Tournament and the National Championship. We need games like this to motivate us and to learn from. Stay on the ship, Duke will be ok. After a whipping of Virginia by 20+ points on Saturday may have some you realize we are not that far away from where we need to be.

Go Duke!!

[BD80]

Dawkins was getting killed all night by Kitchen. The Plumlees did not show up ...


Plumlees were MIA tonight. This season has been, for the most part, a huge disappointment for them. ...


I don't understand the negativism toward the Brothers Plumlee. Mason was 1 for 3 with 14 boards. If you want an inside game, pass the ball to the guy when he's on the block and give him room to work. A resounding majority of the time the Brothers Plumlee receive the ball at the 3-point line or in traffic.


Dawkins was a huge liability on both ends of the floor......there were atleast two times that he literally had the ball taken away from him without any resistance. He caused our defense to break down too many times to count which led to wide open shots....Mason had a good game on the boards but was doing alot of rebounding against several FSU players that were crashing the boards tonight


14 boards... he must have boxed someone out. I think his D is on par with the rest of the team's though ... Many times his man scores because he's had to rotate to stop a drive.

Mason is different from Miles. Mason, Miles and Ryan had awful first halfs. They looked like schoolkids having their lunches taken - complete with pouty faces after they were outwrestled for balls. Mason came back and had a great second half. The balls he "waited for without jumping" were due to his fighting for position.

Asking for post scoring from Ryan, Miles and Mason reminds me of the DDay plan to make tanks amphibious - not the best use of resources. When Coach K has players that can post up, he goes to them in the post.

My concern was the perimeter D, how can Kitchen carve us up so? It looked to me like it was Curry being cooked as much as Dawkins.

Both Curry and Dawkins had rough patches offensively as well, but this will be great experience for each of them, this is where we have lots of room to improve.


... Do I need to start passing out the Xanax?? ...


I'll take two please. And maybe one more for tonight...

I'm not worried, yet. With the ACC sucking so badly this year, we don't have much room for error if we want to maintain a high seed.

[Jderf]

We have a post-scoring problem. The tiny statistical sample size we have for Hairston (100 total minutes) does not convince me that Hairston would be a "huge drop-off" from the Plumlee brothers. Hairston is an unknown, and he is a freshman, but the fact is that our 3 bigs combined to score 3 points in the paint last night. Even zero is not a "huge drop off" from 1.

I just wanted to emphasize that, while Hairston may be an "unknown" for the fans, he is most definitely NOT an "unknown" to the staff. Although we've only seen Josh in 100 minutes of game-time, the staff has been watching him in action for an hour (and more) just about every day for the last five months. The coaches are in a pretty well-informed position regarding every player on the team. When Josh earns playing time, he'll get it.

[Jderf]

As another random note, I think its interesting to point out that, even after going 2-9 last night, Andre still leads the ENTIRE COUNTRY in both effective field goal percentage (kenpom.com/playerstats.php?s=eFG) and true field goal percentage (kenpom.com/playerstats.php?s=TS). That's #1 out of a couple thousand people.

[77devil]

Well, I do try to read carefully. If you'd rather use the phrase "more ability" instead of "better," I stand by my statement. Every player on this team has more ability to play basketball than they did last year. Thus, per Websters, improvements by players from last year's team does mean more talent, and the players (and the team) are more talented.

We'll have to agree to disagree. Inherent ability, ie., talent, and getting better at something are different.


Incidentally, there's a difference between reading carefully and parsing words. Based on my reading of the original post, while he said "more talented," he clearly meant "better." Or maybe he meant "more ability," which in my mind amounts to the same thing, whether you or Webster's say so or not.

If you say so. I'm not clairvoyant. When the OP wrote more talent, I assumed he meant more talent, but since you wrote "he clearly meant "better,"" I'll defer to your telepathy.


Almost as unsubstantiated as deciding that "worlds better" means 7 or 8 out of 10?

Well I wrote that I was guessing, but since you coined the phrase, why don't you define it for us.

[devil84]

I wouldn't argue with any of this. My point was that Kansas and Ohio State are currently experiencing similar struggles to our own.

Kedsy's right. There are a LOT of good teams right now that are going through struggles. Partly -- and not entirely -- it's that time of year. The holidays started late and ended early for these players. They've been back a while and without classes and fellow students, the good news is that they can work solely on basketball skills. The bad news is that they can work solely on basketball skills and let some of it get into their head, particularly if they have time to read about how invincible they are.

In my first-hand team member's experience from many years ago, winter break can be hard on players. You may have to move out of the dorm early and into a hotel for a week or so. Then you dash home for a few days to eat all those yummy foods mom cooks, spend quality time with the family, and say hi to your friends at home (all of whom have been socializing for a week or so, and will continue after you return to the team) AND sleep until the crack of noon for a day or two. Getting back to school, or like in my era, back to the hotel, with no mini-fridge or other amenities of either dorm/apartment or home life, there's nobody but your teammates to hang out with. To be sure, you have a GOOD time together, OD'ing on hoops and video games, but you don't have your friends from home or school (who let you know how much fun they're having via facebook pics and statuses, something that wasn't available in my era).

Then, just when everyone else is moving back into the dorms and getting back into the swing of things, you have a weekend game followed by a road trip around the first day of classes. And that road trip, in Duke's case (and many top teams' cases), is to a team with visions of giant killing, since they've done it before and it would make their ENTIRE season to beat them.

Lest you think I've lost touch with college life today, I'll disclose that I'm also a parent of two college students. I can also attest that the average college student of today is stressed out by a month of sleeping until the crack of noon and socializing with friends, followed by the stark realization that they're going to have to get up for 8:30am classes and mom's not cooking for them anymore.

I'm willing to bet that in another week or two, the trend will be that most those top teams that barely squeaked by or lost a game or two that they "shouldn't have" in the last week or so will likely be back on track as they return to daily routines that are similar to the first part of the season that got them to the top of the polls.

Back to your regularly scheduled grinding and gnashing of teeth. :cool:

[BleedsP287]

Not sure where all the 'jumping ship' and 'under the bus' emotions are coming from.

I see a lot of folks coming to the realization that the coach and the team aren't always perfect. Both are among the best in any case. We're growing. We're not a clear number 1 without KI. We played poorly last night.

I personally don't think the game plan was great, or if it was, it was poorly executed and we couldn't adapt. While I think K is the best there is, that doesn't mean his every act is perfection. I don't put it all on the kids. The coaches bear some responsibility when we lose too.

But I'm not jumping ship and putting on a UNC shirt. I'm a Duke fan facing reality. I'm disappointed, I'm not changing alliances. Still love the school, the team, the fans, the coaches, and the rivalries. Always will.

[mkirsh]

Lots of good analysis in this thread (once the hysteria died down), but no one hit on the real reason we lost (and a factor that was prevalent in our last loss at Md) -- BLACK UNIFORMS. If we can just figure out a way to always wear white, we'll be fine.

[Buckeye Devil]

I wouldn't argue with any of this. My point was that Kansas and Ohio State are currently experiencing similar struggles to our own. Even without Kyrie, if we played either of them 10 times my guess is we'd win 4 to 6 times. If we play them once? I have no idea what would happen.

Put another way, I don't know if Duke is "the team to beat," but I don't know that Kansas or Ohio State is, either. And there's certainly not anybody else I'd put into the conversation. Just because we're not comfortable that we'd beat a team in a one-game format doesn't mean they're "on another level."

OSU certainly has had its struggles in a couple of league games so far and I would agree that it's hard to say whether the Buckeyes (or anyone) are the team to beat. But there is one huge difference between Duke and Ohio State and that is inside presence offensively and defensively with Sullinger and defensively with Lauderdale. They also have outside scoring threats in Diebler and Buford, a slasher in Lighty, a developing PG in Kraft, and can go 8-9 deep at this point. But they are a Sullinger injury away from being very similar to Duke-a perimeter oriented team. If that team stays healthy it has a great shot at a Final 4.

Regardless, I have said it on OSU boards that the Buckeyes cannot beat Duke with Irving in the lineup but would be very capable of doing so without him in the lineup. I think Duke would be fortunate to split with OSU in 10 games without Kyrie. But Duke has one advantage that is hard to overcome: a vastly superior coach in Coach K.

[Kedsy]

We'll have to agree to disagree. Inherent ability, ie., talent, and getting better at something are different.

So you're saying "talent" never changes? Was every player just as talented 10 years ago as they are now? If not ten, then why one?

If you're just talking about athletic ability, I still disagree. These are kids; as they get older they get stronger, and some of them even get faster and jump higher. But I assume we're talking about ability to play basketball, and I don't see how anyone could say that stays the same from one year to the next.

[sagegrouse]

Kedsy

Originally Posted by 77devil We'll have to agree to disagree. Inherent ability, ie., talent, and getting better at something are different.
So you're saying "talent" never changes? Was every player just as talented 10 years ago as they are now? If not ten, then why one?

If you're just talking about athletic ability, I still disagree. These are kids; as they get older they get stronger, and some of them even get faster and jump higher. But I assume we're talking about ability to play basketball, and I don't see how anyone could say that stays the same from one year to the next.

Hmmm... Worth a separate discussion when basketball season winds down? I would think that talent includes more than innate qualities like pitch and vocal chords for a singer but involves some developed skills. Perhaps a "Components of Stardom" thread.

sagegrouse

[bennett]

I know, I know, I'm not supposed to promote my website on this board. But my Duke writer does some really good work for us, and I'd like more people to enjoy it. This message will probably get taken down by a site admin, but if you get the chance to see it, here's his most recent article for you to read (and hopefully enjoy):

http://www.accrivals.com/articles/duke/take-a-deep-breath-duke-falls-to-fsu-66-61.html

[Indoor66]

I know, I know, I'm not supposed to promote my website on this board. But my Duke writer does some really good work for us, and I'd like more people to enjoy it. This message will probably get taken down by a site admin, but if you get the chance to see it, here's his most recent article for you to read (and hopefully enjoy):

http://www.accrivals.com/articles/duke/take-a-deep-breath-duke-falls-to-fsu-66-61.html

I don't know why not. Watzone plugs his all the time.

[Namtilal]

I keep hearing that Duke just didn't make 3's, and we are doomed to lose when that happens. What I saw was very well contested 3's, many taken with no other option. We didn't shoot poorly -- it was just that their D was better than our O.

We will continue to make good 3's that are taken in the context of our offense, and we will struggle when the defense forces us to take difficult 3's. And the coaching staff will improve our offensive spacing and inside-out dynamics to help this improve.

How many teams are we going to meet who can defend us like FSU did? maybe 7-10 in the whole country? And that's ignoring Kyrie of the nine toes.

[dukestheheat]

I keep hearing that Duke just didn't make 3's, and we are doomed to lose when that happens. What I saw was very well contested 3's, many taken with no other option. We didn't shoot poorly -- it was just that their D was better than our O.

We will continue to make good 3's that are taken in the context of our offense, and we will struggle when the defense forces us to take difficult 3's. And the coaching staff will improve our offensive spacing and inside-out dynamics to help this improve.

How many teams are we going to meet who can defend us like FSU did? maybe 7-10 in the whole country? And that's ignoring Kyrie of the nine toes.

....a combination of two things: 1) lack of focus on getting the ball into either the high or low post and/or working the hi/lo pass, and 2) ball movement against their pressure.

We will surely work to develop the paint presence and push for many more entry passes to either the high or low post, and we'll work again for the hi/lo pass. Again, both were notably absent in the FSU game. Duke was very content to settle for the outside shot and we seemed to kind of lull ourselves into that approach.

Also, we will work to move that ball more and more quickly IF the defense is match-up (or, more static) or zone-based. Duke seemed to try to drive a lot through their D and we got stripped a lot, and that dug us further into a hole. If we can't drive through, then we've got to get a better shot with crisp, quick passes around that defense.

I am certain that Duke will effect these two changes and we'll rise up through this.

Go Duke!

dukestheheat

[HateCarolina]

I have gone back and read all of the comments in this thread since I last saw it yesterday morning and I have to say that there sure is a lot of catty/pettiness in comments between us (including me and my new buddy that I have exchanged PM's with). I feel like I'm stuck in an episode of the worse show on TV that my wife makes me listen to when I am on here reading posts.

Hopefully after we win tomorrow we can all going back to being buddies and sing "Kum Ba Yah" together.

JC...as I am getting ready to hit send on this post I hear Carolina is coming to town (I'm in Atlanta). I really, really do not like to hear anything about them. Maybe I'll go try to get some cheap tickets and berate Roy Williams. Sorry...random tangent.

[wilson]

I wouldn't argue with any of this. My point was that Kansas and Ohio State are currently experiencing similar struggles to our own. Even without Kyrie, if we played either of them 10 times my guess is we'd win 4 to 6 times. If we play them once? I have no idea what would happen.

Put another way, I don't know if Duke is "the team to beat," but I don't know that Kansas or Ohio State is, either. And there's certainly not anybody else I'd put into the conversation. Just because we're not comfortable that we'd beat a team in a one-game format doesn't mean they're "on another level."Put yet another way, an example would be last year's Kansas (and perhaps Kentucky). I don't think we'd have beaten them in a 10-game format, and I would have felt like they had a 60% or so chance to beat us in a single contest, but they lost long before we got the chance to find out...in the second round, in fact. To Northern Iowa.
Some things about our team this season definitely need to develop further, but we still have personnel that I'd put up against any other team in the country and take my chances (even without Kyrie).

[DukeBlueHeart4]

I say that we just move on and focus on the game tomorrow, about which I have two words to say for the cursed souls who meet us after such a stunning defeat:

Poor Virginia.

[Saratoga2]

I wouldn't argue with any of this. My point was that Kansas and Ohio State are currently experiencing similar struggles to our own. Even without Kyrie, if we played either of them 10 times my guess is we'd win 4 to 6 times. If we play them once? I have no idea what would happen.

Put another way, I don't know if Duke is "the team to beat," but I don't know that Kansas or Ohio State is, either. And there's certainly not anybody else I'd put into the conversation. Just because we're not comfortable that we'd beat a team in a one-game format doesn't mean they're "on another level."

One big difference (no pun intended) is that Kansas has the Morris brothers who would eat us alive inside while OSU has Sullinger.

[DUKIE V(A)]

So much can and will happen between now and the end of the season for all teams...injuries, players stepping up, others going into slumps, adjustments in rotations...

Since I have been following college basketball in the mid-80s, Coach K has been one of if not the best coach in the country at adjusting his teams. With or without Kyrie, he will make the necessary adjustments to make us as competitive as possible night in and night out. The effort/desire from our coaches and players is also going to be there every game. We have a classy program that wins a ton. As fans, what more can we ask for?

Winning another National Title will not be easy with or without Kyrie (fully healthy or not), but I'll take our squad and coach over any other. There is no perfect, unbeatable team out there and there is always a team like Northern Iowa that puts it all together one night. Can't wait to see our guys continue to develop. It's going to be exciting.

[Chris4UNC]

This is a good article.


http://www.foxsportssouth.com/01/13/11/Five-Reasons-Duke-Lost-To-FSU--/landing_acc.html?blockID=390649&feedID=4354

[Chris4UNC]

I keep hearing that Duke just didn't make 3's, and we are doomed to lose when that happens. What I saw was very well contested 3's, many taken with no other option. We didn't shoot poorly -- it was just that their D was better than our O.

We will continue to make good 3's that are taken in the context of our offense, and we will struggle when the defense forces us to take difficult 3's. And the coaching staff will improve our offensive spacing and inside-out dynamics to help this improve.

How many teams are we going to meet who can defend us like FSU did? maybe 7-10 in the whole country? And that's ignoring Kyrie of the nine toes.

Well, here is another angle. Another question has come up. If they were contesting the 3 so well why did they continue attempting them? Someone said to me that Coach K should have concentrated on getting it inside more. My response was that FSU was playing good defense everywhere, period! But I have to say, I think that Coach K doesn't have much confidence in his teams inside guys. I have to agree. The Plumlees are good defensively. They hog the underneath pretty well and are a shot block presence but offensively they seem to miss some easy shots and really have not got that dependable shot that big men need to develop. If Duke had that inside scoring threat, wow, they would be more of a monster team than they already are.

[Chris4UNC]

I say that we just move on and focus on the game tomorrow, about which I have two words to say for the cursed souls who meet us after such a stunning defeat:

Poor Virginia.

At one point I thought, ok, is Virginia going to pull this off? Poor Virginia played them tough for awhile. Being at Cameron gives Duke 10 points a game so I knew they would probably win the game but for a minute there it was up in the air. But only for a minute:(

[Chris4UNC]

So much can and will happen between now and the end of the season for all teams...injuries, players stepping up, others going into slumps, adjustments in rotations...

Since I have been following college basketball in the mid-80s, Coach K has been one of if not the best coach in the country at adjusting his teams. With or without Kyrie, he will make the necessary adjustments to make us as competitive as possible night in and night out. The effort/desire from our coaches and players is also going to be there every game. We have a classy program that wins a ton. As fans, what more can we ask for?

Winning another National Title will not be easy with or without Kyrie (fully healthy or not), but I'll take our squad and coach over any other. There is no perfect, unbeatable team out there and there is always a team like Northern Iowa that puts it all together one night. Can't wait to see our guys continue to develop. It's going to be exciting.

.....and I am happy to say I picked Northern Iowa in that game last year. Your post is right on the money. It would not be easy for Duke to repeat, with or without Kyrie. Every team is going to play Duke tough, giving probably their best effort of the season. With Irving I feel confident they are a good bet for the Final Four. It would be a challenge though because, like I said, everyone will put forth their best to defeat them.

[devildeac]

This is a good article.


http://www.foxsportssouth.com/01/13/11/Five-Reasons-Duke-Lost-To-FSU--/landing_acc.html?blockID=390649&feedID=4354


Well, here is another angle. Another question has come up. If they were contesting the 3 so well why did they continue attempting them? Someone said to me that Coach K should have concentrated on getting it inside more. My response was that FSU was playing good defense everywhere, period! But I have to say, I think that Coach K doesn't have much confidence in his teams inside guys. I have to agree. The Plumlees are good defensively. They hog the underneath pretty well and are a shot block presence but offensively they seem to miss some easy shots and really have not got that dependable shot that big men need to develop. If Duke had that inside scoring threat, wow, they would be more of a monster team than they already are.


At one point I thought, ok, is Virginia going to pull this off? Poor Virginia played them tough for awhile. Being at Cameron gives Duke 10 points a game so I knew they would probably win the game but for a minute there it was up in the air. But only for a minute:(


.....and I am happy to say I picked Northern Iowa in that game last year. Your post is right on the money. It would not be easy for Duke to repeat, with or without Kyrie. Every team is going to play Duke tough, giving probably their best effort of the season. With Irving I feel confident they are a good bet for the Final Four. It would be a challenge though because, like I said, everyone will put forth their best to defeat them.

These are very interesting observations coming from an obvious visitor to DBR (who I seem to remember from years past) of the lighter blue persuasion and I have enjoyed reading them. Keep reading/posting and sharing your thoughts.