The best spot for Kyle?

[DukieinSoCal]

Excited to try my first post. Been reading the forum for while now. Here goes.

It seems like we could take better advantage of Kyle's talents and our roster by playing him more at PF. I know he plays any position(except for PG) depending on the situation, but we've been primarily using him as a SF. At SF, he's usually guarded by quicker, smaller players but he rarely posts them up to take advantage of the size advantage. Since his offensive game largely consists of outside shooting and driving to the hoop, it's not as hard for these smaller guys to guard him. If Kyle were to play more PF, it seems that he would have an easier time freeing himself up for shots or driving against bigger, slower guys.

In addition to more mismatches for Kyle, this would also lead to more minutes for Andre and Seth and less minutes for the Plumlees and Ryan. They've all had their moments, but Andre and Seth seem the most ready to consistently contribute, especially on offense. Ryan, Mason, and Miles still don't have the confidence or low-post moves to warrant starter minutes. They also haven't been able to slow down strong interior opponents on defense.

I really don't think our defense or rebounding would suffer much, if at all, by making these subtle shifts in playing time, and our offense might just take off.

Any thoughts?

[ajgoodfella7]

Excited to try my first post. Been reading the forum for while now. Here goes.

It seems like we could take better advantage of Kyle's talents and our roster by playing him more at PF. I know he plays any position(except for PG) depending on the situation, but we've been primarily using him as a SF. At SF, he's usually guarded by quicker, smaller players but he rarely posts them up to take advantage of the size advantage. Since his offensive game largely consists of outside shooting and driving to the hoop, it's not as hard for these smaller guys to guard him. If Kyle were to play more PF, it seems that he would have an easier time freeing himself up for shots or driving against bigger, slower guys.

In addition to more mismatches for Kyle, this would also lead to more minutes for Andre and Seth and less minutes for the Plumlees and Ryan. They've all had their moments, but Andre and Seth seem the most ready to consistently contribute, especially on offense. Ryan, Mason, and Miles still don't have the confidence or low-post moves to warrant starter minutes. They also haven't been able to slow down strong interior opponents on defense.

I really don't think our defense or rebounding would suffer much, if at all, by making these subtle shifts in playing time, and our offense might just take off.

Any thoughts?

I like Singler playing mostly at the 3 because I don't particularly like him having to bang down low on defense for the majority of a game. And for Duke to get where it ultimately wants to go, they have to get more offensive production from Ryan, Miles and Mason. With Kyrie out, I think there are plenty of minutes for Seth and Andre, they just need to continue to take advantage of them.

I get what you are saying as far as playing Kyle at the 3 would likely create more offense, but I think the team would suffer in the long run against bigger teams. The bottom line is that for Duke to win a NC this year, I think they are going to need those 3 bigs to continue to develop, and for them to play meaningful minutes down the stretch.

[DukieinSoCal]

I like Singler playing mostly at the 3 because I don't particularly like him having to bang down low on defense for the majority of a game. And for Duke to get where it ultimately wants to go, they have to get more offensive production from Ryan, Miles and Mason. With Kyrie out, I think there are plenty of minutes for Seth and Andre, they just need to continue to take advantage of them.

I get what you are saying as far as playing Kyle at the 3 would likely create more offense, but I think the team would suffer in the long run against bigger teams. The bottom line is that for Duke to win a NC this year, I think they are going to need those 3 bigs to continue to develop, and for them to play meaningful minutes down the stretch.

I agree with you that we have to continue developing our bigs, but they're not going to come up with new post moves during the season. Ryan may become a more confident shooter, but I really think the Plumlees need to go a good big-man camp during the summer to work on their offense. Neither of them have a go-to move yet.

And you have a good point about Kyle wearing down at the 4 but we should be able to give enough breathers each game with the other bigs.

It'll be interesting to see what coach K settles on as we approach the tournament. I have full confidence that he'll find a winning formula. He's been brilliant in the past with these adjustments whether it's going smaller or bigger. Of course, if Kyrie comes back healthy, none of this will matter too much.

[ajgoodfella7]

I agree with you that we have to continue developing our bigs, but they're not going to come up with new post moves during the season. Ryan may become a more confident shooter, but I really think the Plumlees need to go a good big-man camp during the summer to work on their offense. Neither of them have a go-to move yet.

And you have a good point about Kyle wearing down at the 4 but we should be able to give enough breathers each game with the other bigs.

It'll be interesting to see what coach K settles on as we approach the tournament. I have full confidence that he'll find a winning formula. He's been brilliant in the past with these adjustments whether it's going smaller or bigger. Of course, if Kyrie comes back healthy, none of this will matter too much.

I'm not really counting on the bigs to develop any kind of advanced post-game this year, but I think just by playing a smarter brand of basketball, they will greatly help the teams overall offensive game (and defensive game, for that matter). I am just hoping that at some point the light will finally come on for them.

[RonFar]

I've been advocating this for a while now.

The Pros:

1) Kyle's relative quickness and shooting ability will likely give other bigs nightmares.

2) It opens up a spot for Seth Curry to play more, with Dawk and Nolan. Like you mentioned, all three of those guys can score far more readily than whoever Curry would be replacing (Mason, Miles, Ryan).

3) We become a faster team able to put more pressure on the opposing frontcourt.

The Cons:

1) It's conceivable that Kyle will have to expend more injury guarding a big than he typically uses on the perimeter.

2) I do think we'd sacrifice some rebounding, even considering how poor the Plumlees have been. Ditto for blocked shots.


There's not an ideal solution for the interior problem we're experiencing now, but I'm leaning more and more to thinking that we should just play to our strengths (guards) and get as many in as possible. I think the pros outweigh the cons in this situation, though of course it's hard to say unless you see that 5 in action.

[diveonthefloor]

There are clearly teams and lineups which would lend themselves very well to this kind of lineup. K has used it on several occasions already this year.

Your points are excellent.

This whole discussion illustrates another important point about the types of players K recruits....they are virtually all extremely versatile.

[weezie]

This whole discussion illustrates another important point about the types of players K recruits....they are virtually all extremely versatile.

With Kyle being, in my opinion (granted, yes, yes, unimportant) the most versatile player Duke has ever seen. What can't he play?

Does the name Bill Bradley ring a bell?

[DukieinSoCal]

After last night's game, I am even more convinced that we have to play Kyle more at the 4. Neither Plumlee has a clue what to do with the ball down low if they're not set up for an easy dunk. At least Kyle has enough game to post up at times and draw some defensive attention away from the perimeter.

Even with Kyle playing more down low, we can still have 3 shooters roaming the perimeter. We need to split the minutes at the 5 between the Plumlees. You just can't play both of them together for long stretches when they're so ineffective on both ends of the court.

[Neals384]

Good post, DukieInSoCal.

We can look at the season +/- totals (here) to see how the team has done so far. This includes all games thru Fla St, but excludes all lineups with Kyrie.

Kyle at the 4, with 1 big: 257 points for, 180 against, 58.8% of all points scored are for Duke.

Kyle at the 3, with 2 bigs: 463 for, 320 against, 59.1% of all points scored are for Duke.

So, we're slightly better with the 2 guard, Kyle, 2 big lineup, but the difference is not enough to draw any conclusions.

(Lineups with Kyle at the 5 or on the bench are excluded from the above.)

[ajgoodfella7]

After last night's game, I am even more convinced that we have to play Kyle more at the 4. Neither Plumlee has a clue what to do with the ball down low if they're not set up for an easy dunk. At least Kyle has enough game to post up at times and draw some defensive attention away from the perimeter.

Even with Kyle playing more down low, we can still have 3 shooters roaming the perimeter. We need to split the minutes at the 5 between the Plumlees. You just can't play both of them together for long stretches when they're so ineffective on both ends of the court.

I still tend to believe that for Duke to win a NC this year, they have to get more production from their 3 bigs. I wouldn't have as much of a problem with Kyle getting more minutes at the 4 spot if Kyrie was healthy, but without him, Andre and Seth point blank can't consistently get their own shots. Nolan and Kyle are realistically the only 2 guys on the team right now that you can give the ball too and let them go to work. By placing Kyle at the 4, I just fear that the team will become even more perimeter oriented because 2/3 of your backcourt can't create for themselves. I just feel Kyle is much more of a mismatch at the 3 position then he is at the 4. And as I stated yesterday, I don't want him to have to bang on defense for the majority of the game without 2 real big men in there. Just my opinion, but I really think Duke has to live and die with the current rotation of Kyle at the 3, and hopefully the big guys will play better.

[Kedsy]

After last night's game, I am even more convinced that we have to play Kyle more at the 4. Neither Plumlee has a clue what to do with the ball down low if they're not set up for an easy dunk. At least Kyle has enough game to post up at times and draw some defensive attention away from the perimeter.

Even with Kyle playing more down low, we can still have 3 shooters roaming the perimeter. We need to split the minutes at the 5 between the Plumlees. You just can't play both of them together for long stretches when they're so ineffective on both ends of the court.

The problem with your argument is "playing Kyle at the 4" does not mean he will play down low on offense. It's really a defensive designation, and Kyle would continue to play out on the perimeter on offense. If anything, however, when Kyle is the 2nd biggest Duke player he would probably be more likely to play outside on offense, because that's where his advantage is when a bigger player is guarding him. If a smaller player is guarding him (i.e., if he's "at the 3"), logic would dictate he'd go inside more because that's where his advantage is.

As far as the Plumlees being "ineffective on both ends of the court," I completely disagree. For the most part this season their defense (especially Miles) and rebounding (especially Mason) has been pretty good.

Offensively, the Plumlees are what they are, and if we want them to score a lot (which frankly I still think is unnecessary with all the other scorers we have), we'll need to give them the ball when they're in a position where they can succeed at their current confidence and skill level. Generally, that's alley-oops and cuts for dunks, rather than post moves, although obviously against Marquette, Mason showed he can do more if we force the ball down to him a lot.

[DukieinSoCal]

The problem with your argument is "playing Kyle at the 4" does not mean he will play down low on offense. It's really a defensive designation, and Kyle would continue to play out on the perimeter on offense. If anything, however, when Kyle is the 2nd biggest Duke player he would probably be more likely to play outside on offense, because that's where his advantage is when a bigger player is guarding him. If a smaller player is guarding him (i.e., if he's "at the 3"), logic would dictate he'd go inside more because that's where his advantage is.

As far as the Plumlees being "ineffective on both ends of the court," I completely disagree. For the most part this season their defense (especially Miles) and rebounding (especially Mason) has been pretty good.

Offensively, the Plumlees are what they are, and if we want them to score a lot (which frankly I still think is unnecessary with all the other scorers we have), we'll need to give them the ball when they're in a position where they can succeed at their current confidence and skill level. Generally, that's alley-oops and cuts for dunks, rather than post moves, although obviously against Marquette, Mason showed he can do more if we force the ball down to him a lot.

I guess what I'm saying is that we need someone, anyone, to at least pose a threat inside on offense or teams will be able to guard our perimeter without any fear of getting beat down low. Some games, Kyle may have to play that role as long as he's not playing a really big, athletic counterpart.

And I don't really agree that our bigs have played good defense. Their rebounding numbers have been ok, but any decent post player we've faced so far(see K.State, Miami, Maryland) has put up big numbers, and pretty efficiently, I might add.

As for Mason's offense, you can't really count the Marquette game because Kyrie was healthy. It's a whole different ballgame with him on the court.

[Newton_14]

I guess what I'm saying is that we need someone, anyone, to at least pose a threat inside on offense or teams will be able to guard our perimeter without any fear of getting beat down low. Some games, Kyle may have to play that role as long as he's not playing a really big, athletic counterpart.

And I don't really agree that our bigs have played good defense. Their rebounding numbers have been ok, but any decent post player we've faced so far(see K.State, Miami, Maryland) has put up big numbers, and pretty efficiently, I might add.

As for Mason's offense, you can't really count the Marquette game because Kyrie was healthy. It's a whole different ballgame with him on the court.

Sorry but I disagree on our bigs defense. People keep pointing to the points that opposing bigs have scored. That is a fallacy. Most of those points have come from drives and dishes, and very few of those points have come from the opposing big posting up and then scoring at will. That has not happened. K has stated multiple times that our 3 bigs have defended well. His exact quote last night was "I thought Mason played a hell of a game last night". K does not toss praise out when he does not mean it.

Our defense is team oriented. Always has been and always will be. When one guy fails his assignment it will result in a basket most times. It is based on help defenders 1 thru 5.

As for Kyle, he is the best SF in the country. We are better overall when he is at the 3, and when K can slide him to the 4 at his luxury to take advantage of the opponent's weakness. I like it much better when we use Kyle at the 4 out of luxury more than necessity. Our defense and rebounding suffers at times with Kyle at the 4.

It ultimately depends on the opponent and how K wants to attack.

[sagegrouse]

I guess what I'm saying is that we need someone, anyone, to at least pose a threat inside on offense or teams will be able to guard our perimeter without any fear of getting beat down low. Some games, Kyle may have to play that role as long as he's not playing a really big, athletic counterpart.

And I don't really agree that our bigs have played good defense. Their rebounding numbers have been ok, but any decent post player we've faced so far(see K.State, Miami, Maryland) has put up big numbers, and pretty efficiently, I might add.

As for Mason's offense, you can't really count the Marquette game because Kyrie was healthy. It's a whole different ballgame with him on the court.

Well, with Kyle at the wing, move Ryan to the 3-pt line and let Kyle do whatever he wants to inside. I don't see how it makes a difference what the lineup is, which is often dictated by defense more than offense. And if Kyle has a smaller guy on him when he goes inside, so much the better.

BTW the production of our four bigs against FSU was dismal: 58 minutes and six points on 2-8 shooting (1-5, omitting Ryan's three-pointers). There is no case at all for keeping two of these guys on the floor. So, while the ideal lineup IMHO (where the H is usually silent) has Kyle at the wing, he may end up playing all his time as the second big guy on the floor.

sagegrouse

[Newton_14]

I agree with you that we have to continue developing our bigs, but they're not going to come up with new post moves during the season. Ryan may become a more confident shooter, but I really think the Plumlees need to go a good big-man camp during the summer to work on their offense. Neither of them have a go-to move yet..

Miles has shown plenty of good moves. He has a nice jumphook with the right hand, has scored on quick turnaround bank shots on the block, and has scored several times on up and under moves with a reverse layup. Mason is more raw, but showed in the Marquette game that he is capable down there.

The problem right now is we are not posting them up. Since Kyrie went down, we went 100% perimeter oriented. At best we throw it in the post 2 to 4 times a game. In most games it has been less than that.

Kind of hard to score the basketball or make a "Go To" move, if you are not getting the ball. If we were making it a point of emphasis to feed the post regularly and the guys were not scoring, then it would be fair to critique them, but as of now that is not happening, so all we can judge them on is screening, rebounding, and defense. Like Kedsy said all 3 bigs are doing those things well for the most part.

K got pretty irate with a reporter after the game last night, and stated that Duke wins and loses as a team, not because of 1 or 2 individual players, and that has been his philosophy for 36 years, and in those 36 years he had not criticized a player after a loss, and that is how it would be as long as he is in charge.

[Buckeye Devil]

1) Kyle sure looks best at a 3

2) Interior points do not necessarily have to come from posting up

3) If Miles and Mason combine and produce Zoubek's output from last year, Duke will be more successful

4) Scheyer is missed more than even imagined

[ajgoodfella7]

I still strongly believe that Coach should think about giving Thornton some extended time running the point with Nolan playing off the ball. I think a far better option then moving Singler would be somehow finding a way to move Nolan back to the 2. I think its pretty obvious that at this point Duke cannot be the team it was earlier in the season (uptempo, run run run) because lets face it, that was built on Kyrie. I would think that what Duke really needs to do at this point is run a much more controlled and patient offense then they have been running the last few games. There have been too many times when they have been out of control and forced things into the lane that weren't there. One thing that TT has been good at every time he's had an opportunity, is making good decisions with the basketball. Maybe with a PG who plays more controlled, things may naturally open up for Nolan and he won't be under so much pressure to force things.

Not saying TT is the ultimate answer, but I'd really like to see the kid get some more PT in the upcoming ACC games.

[Indoor66]

I think we stood around too much and watched Nolan pound the ball on the perimeter until there were under 15 on the shot clock. Then we scrambled. There appeared to be little organization on offense.

I would like to see more of the old motion offense with constant movement and repositioning. No standing around.

[superdave]

Would anyone disagree that Nolan is the best 2 guard in the country? (I know..I know...if true, he's playing out of position for now)

Would anyone disagree that Kyle is the best 3 in the country?

I think both those statements are true and that should color our discussions here. Another point worth making, if Kyle has an advantage by going inside, he should go post up or make one of those quick flash, catch, shot plays. If he does not have that advantage, he should be on the perimeter more. This is a matchup question, not an absolute 4 or 3 question, and it should be treated as such.

For example, we were down 3 possessions to FSU so we moved Kyle to the 4 and played with three guards which gives us more scoring firepower than 2 guards. Matchup and game situation dictated Kyle at the 4.
Super "And so it will be for the remainder of the season, thus sayeth K" Dave

[DukieinSoCal]

Miles has shown plenty of good moves. He has a nice jumphook with the right hand, has scored on quick turnaround bank shots on the block, and has scored several times on up and under moves with a reverse layup. Mason is more raw, but showed in the Marquette game that he is capable down there.

The problem right now is we are not posting them up. Since Kyrie went down, we went 100% perimeter oriented. At best we throw it in the post 2 to 4 times a game. In most games it has been less than that.

Kind of hard to score the basketball or make a "Go To" move, if you are not getting the ball. If we were making it a point of emphasis to feed the post regularly and the guys were not scoring, then it would be fair to critique them, but as of now that is not happening, so all we can judge them on is screening, rebounding, and defense. Like Kedsy said all 3 bigs are doing those things well for the most part.

K got pretty irate with a reporter after the game last night, and stated that Duke wins and loses as a team, not because of 1 or 2 individual players, and that has been his philosophy for 36 years, and in those 36 years he had not criticized a player after a loss, and that is how it would be as long as he is in charge.

I'm not trying to get down on any of our players. I think they all play hard and all buy into the team concept. I'm just trying to make observations and figure out how we can improve.

While it's true that we don't throw the ball down into the post very often, there are plenty of times when Mason or Miles gets the ball in good position and seem very hesitant. Obviously they're tremendous athletes and fairly coordinated. It just seems that they have way more potential than they've shown so far. Mason in particular has occasionally shown a turnaround jumper with some success. Don't you think he could consistently get a good look with that shot and drain it most of the time with a bit more confidence?