BYU's Jimmer Fredette

[SupaDave]

Oh my - why have I never heard of this kid? As of last night he's the nations leading scorer!!!!

[gw67]

I'm with you. I hadn't heard of the youngster before late last year. Linked is his bio from BYU site. I loved the part where it states that he was rated one of the top 75 shooting guards. I've seen him play in parts of two games and he played well. It appears that he handles the ball well, is a terrific shooter and a good passer. Qualities that aren't always appreciated when colleges are recruiting, particularly, players from small towns who aren't big on the AAU circuit.

http://www.byucougars.com/Profile.jsp?ID=3062

gw67

[CDu]

He was third-team All-American last year (for Sporting News and NABC) and a pre-season first-team AP All-American this year (for whatever that's worth). He didn't hit the mainstream until last season, when he averaged 22 points per game to lead the Cougars. The kid can definitely play.

In the tourney last year, they talked a bit about his brother being a rapper. ESPN the Magazine did an interview with him and his brother in 2010.

[JasonEvans]

A week or so ago, when talking a bit about POY in a thread about Nolan thus far this season, I was all ready to say that Jimmer was not really in the running. I was about to post that it really came down to the major conference kids, playing on the elite teams -- kids like Sullinger, Smith, and Walker. I was about to post that I just did not think a mid-major player could do it unless their team really excelled and they put up huge numbers -- sorta like what Adam Morrison did a few years ago.

Anyway, I was all ready to post this, and then I noted that Jimmer had scored 39 the night before in a win at UNLV (not an easy thing to do, for sure!) and that BYU was about to be ranked in the Top Ten. So, I held off.

Whew, thank goodness I did. There is little question at this point that Jimmer has injected himself into the heart of the POY debate. He, Sullinger, Kemba, and Nolan are the co-front runners right now and I am not sure that any of them are ahead of the others.

One interesting thing to note about Jimmer so far this season, he has been a much bigger scorer on the road than at home, which is quite unusual. In road games he has scored 32, 13, 26, 25, 28, 34, 39, and 47 points for an average of 30.5 ppg. In home games he has scored 24, 26, 27, 16, 16, 33, 25, 22 for an average of 23.6 pgg.

--Jason "he's not just a gunner as his shooting percentage is a very impressive 48%" Evans

[IBleedBlue]

BYU is one team I don't want to see in the same bracket as us. In fact, I want them to be as far away as possible in terms of distance :) Jimmer Fredette is looking like a one man wrecking crew. He is taking teams down like no one has done before.

[mikegismynewhero]

i'm interested in finding out how he compares to other great scorers from previous years, i.e. Redick and Morrison..49 is Jimmer's career high..does anyone have that stat for JJ and Adam? and possibly other intriguing ones?

[Bluedog]

i'm interested in finding out how he compares to other great scorers from previous years, i.e. Redick and Morrison..49 is Jimmer's career high..does anyone have that stat for JJ and Adam? and possibly other intriguing ones?

JJ's career high was 41 against Texas in December '05 and at Georgetown in Jan '06. He shot 47% from the field his senior year as well as 42% from three-point range while averaging 26.8 ppg.

[SupaDave]

i'm interested in finding out how he compares to other great scorers from previous years, i.e. Redick and Morrison..49 is Jimmer's career high..does anyone have that stat for JJ and Adam? and possibly other intriguing ones?

From the clips I've seen this year he's like a mix of both of them to be honest. Much less awkward than Morrison, and more developed physically than either of them were. His shot appears to be just as deadly as JJ's when he's hot - and he shoots from deep.

[mikegismynewhero]

did you see that missed layup/dunk though?..rough..he should stick to atleast 15 ft out

[JasonEvans]

i'm interested in finding out how he compares to other great scorers from previous years, i.e. Redick and Morrison..49 is Jimmer's career high..does anyone have that stat for JJ and Adam? and possibly other intriguing ones?

The scoring leader most years comes from a smaller school or at least a mid-major. The competition and abundance of talent on the rosters of big conference schools generally makes it hard for a player from one of them to lead the nation in scoring.

As evidence, I present this list (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NCAA_Division_I_men%27s_basketball_season_ scoring_leaders#Official) of the annual scoring leaders. From recent years it includes such well-known, household names as Aubrey Coleman, Keydren Clark, and Ronny McCollum.

I am not making light of the careers of these fine basketball players, merely pointing out that leading the nation in scoring is often not a sign of a future NBAer or even a 3rd team All-American.

There are some big names on the list, notably Adam Morrison and Stephen Curry as well as several guys who went on to fine NBA careers like Kurt Thomas, Hersey Hawkins, and Xavier McDaniel (who also led the nation in rebounding, I believe).

--Jason "I believe Redick's career high was 41 points" Evans

[4decadedukie]

Last week I had made the same decision as Jason did, although more from sloth than from insight; I also made the comparison between Fredette and Morrison. Notwithstanding his excellent statistics and BYU’s emerging seasonal stature, I continue to believe that NPOY selection of a player from a mid-major that does not have as rigorous a schedule (IMHO) as many teams from conferences such as the Big East, the ACC, the SEC, and the Big 10 will – in the final analysis – be VERY difficult, although not impossible.

[Namtilal]

He was ... a pre-season first-team AP All-American this year (for whatever that's worth).

LOL, less this year than ever.

[JasonEvans]

LOL, less this year than ever.

Of the Pre-Season All-Americans, Jimmer would be a lock to remain on the list at mid-season. I think JaJuan Johnson would likely also be on it as the 5th member of the team. The others on it at mid-season are clearly Nolan, Sullinger, and Kemba.

Singler is probably a 2nd team All-American at this point -- no shame in that. Pullen and Barnes are nowhere near it right now. Pullen might be a 3rd team or honorable-mention AA right now. Barnes is a long way from even Honorable Mention. Heck, he's not even a sure thing for All-ACC Honorable Mention right now as he's (at best) the third best player on his team right now.

-Jason "I think we need to merge all of this stuff into one big POY Discussion thread-- objections?" Evans

[Jarhead]

Of the Pre-Season All-Americans, Jimmer would be a lock to remain on the list at mid-season. I think JaJuan Johnson would likely also be on it as the 5th member of the team. The others on it at mid-season are clearly Nolan, Sullinger, and Kemba.

Singler is probably a 2nd team All-American at this point -- no shame in that. Pullen and Barnes are nowhere near it right now. Pullen might be a 3rd team or honorable-mention AA right now. Barnes is a long way from even Honorable Mention. Heck, he's not even a sure thing for All-ACC Honorable Mention right now as he's (at best) the third best player on his team right now.

-Jason "I think we need to merge all of this stuff into one big POY Discussion thread-- objections?" Evans

Re: your signature quote. Please don't, Jason. Some of these threads are more like reading a library rather than reading a book. They get too unwieldy and difficult to follow ending up as a series of thread hijacks. This started out as a thread about Jimmer Fredette. Let's keep it that way, please.

[Duvall]

Heck, he's not even a sure thing for All-ACC Honorable Mention right now as he's (at best) the third best player on his team right now.


Barnes isn't close to being UNC's third best player, though I'll admit it's a decidedly mixed bag after Zeller and Henson. But McDonald, Strickland and Bullock are having better seasons, even if they are taking fewer shots.

[superdave]

Would you trade Nolan for Jimmer?

I would not. He can't touch Nolan as a playmaker or defender which I think means Nolan does more to make his teammates better than Fredette.

[brevity]

Would you trade Nolan for Jimmer?

I would not. He can't touch Nolan as a playmaker or defender which I think means Nolan does more to make his teammates better than Fredette.

I'd argue that BYU wouldn't trade Jimmer for Nolan, either. It works both ways when both players are a good fit.

I live in Mountain West country, and it speaks volumes about ESPN/college hoops media that the story of the conference this year is a high-scoring player, and not the #6 team in the nation with a spotless record and an NCAA championship winning coach* at the helm. Though national updates from Provo are kind of amusing, this is lazy NBA-style coverage.

*I know. But he is. (It's Brady Hoke in reverse!)

[gw67]

Would you trade Nolan for Jimmer?

I would not. He can't touch Nolan as a playmaker or defender which I think means Nolan does more to make his teammates better than Fredette.

I think the question for NPOY is not the "best player" but who is having the best season. It's all very subjective but most pro football scouts would tell you the Luck was the "best" player this past year but he didn't have the best season.

gw67

[jimsumner]

It should be noted that Utah's Andrew Bogut was consensus national POY in 2005. So, it is possible for a player outside the so-called power conferences to win that kind of recognition.

[superdave]

It should be noted that Utah's Andrew Bogut was consensus national POY in 2005. So, it is possible for a player outside the so-called power conferences to win that kind of recognition.

Jameer Nelson is another recent example - St Joe's, A-10. But he wound up splitting those awards with Okafor that year.

[budwom]

It is just a fact (conveniently overlooked by North Carolina-centric ACC fans) that the very best prospects come out of upstate New York (Glens Falls for Jimmer) and Vermont. Proven time and time again.

[superdave]

It is just a fact (conveniently overlooked by North Carolina-centric ACC fans) that the very best prospects come out of upstate New York (Glens Falls for Jimmer) and Vermont. Proven time and time again.

Ha. Who are the others? Laettner was from Buffalo. Brand was from Peekskill.

[budwom]

Most of them are so good, Dave, that they go directly to the bigtime pro leagues in places like Iceland and Lichtenstein. Can't blame them for grabbing the money...

[JasonEvans]

Ha. Who are the others? Laettner was from Buffalo. Brand was from Peekskill.

Well, Sean May was a Buffalo.

Wait, I may be confused about what you are talking about...

-Jason "I don't have Photoshop, so the attached is the best I could do" Evans

[jimsumner]

Greg Koubek was from up-state New York. Clifton Park, to be exact.

And don't forget Greg Paulus.

[rsvman]

In answer to your original question, which was, roughly, "Why haven't I heard of this kid before?" I would have to respectfully answer, "Because you weren't paying attention."

Jimmer Fredette has been a very, very good basketball player for several years. He was incredible last season and got quite a bit of media attention, not the least of which was because, although his team lost to a talented Kansas St team in the tournament, he lit KState up like a firecracker. Without looking up the stats, I can't remember his output, but it was pretty impressive. So much for the idea that a guy who plays in the Moutain West wouldn't be able to score against the "big boys."

Jimmer is the real deal.

[FireOgilvie]

Fredette is putting on a show against San Diego State.

He has 20 points at halftime on 8/13 shooting (3-4 from 3). His only miss was a last second shot from 50 feet away.

I hate to say it, but Fredette is definitely NPOY over Nolan and everyone else right now.

[cato]

Fredette is putting on a show against San Diego State.

He has 20 points at halftime on 8/13 shooting (3-4 from 3). His only miss was a last second shot from 50 feet away.

I hate to say it, but Fredette is definitely NPOY over Nolan and everyone else right now.

Including the last 15 points for his team. SDSU is throwing everything at the guy, but they just can't stop him.

[Dr. Tina]

Fredette's offense is lights out, but I'm very underwhelmed by his ability to play on defense whatsoever. I'm thinking it must be easy to have so much energy on offense when you stand around and make a halfhearted attempt to guard on the other end. I will take Nolan Smith over him any day!

BTW - the journalists fawning over the Jimmer is getting to the point where the Jaws of Life wouldn't be able to remove their lips from his butt.

On a totally different note, ESPN's live chat doesn't seem to acknowledge female comments unless they come from Dana O'Neil. I've posted multiple comments under my own name about the BYU game and have not had one posted, so I decided to change my name to a male one. I tried with several different male names and each time at least one of my comments made it on the live chat blog almost immediately.

[Bluedevil114]

Why do I think I am watching JJ Redick when I watch Fredette play. This kid is the real deal. His shot and range is redickulous.

[FireOgilvie]

Fredette's offense is lights out, but I'm very underwhelmed by his ability to play on defense whatsoever. I'm thinking it must be easy to have so much energy on offense when you stand around and make a halfhearted attempt to guard on the other end. I will take Nolan Smith over him any day!

BTW - the journalists fawning over the Jimmer is getting to the point where the Jaws of Life wouldn't be able to remove their lips from his butt.

On a totally different note, ESPN's live chat doesn't seem to acknowledge female comments unless they come from Dana O'Neil. I've posted multiple comments under my own name about the BYU game and have not had one posted, so I decided to change my name to a male one. I tried with several different male names and each time at least one of my comments made it on the live chat blog almost immediately.

Both his offensive and defensive game are very JJ-esque.

[Dr. Tina]

Both his offensive and defensive game are very JJ-esque.

That may be so, though I do think JJ's defense improved over time, and they say he's worked on it even harder in the NBA. The Jimmer is a senior, correct? You'd think he'd show a bit more effort by now.

[Bluedevil114]

That may be so, though I do think JJ's defense improved over time, and they say he's worked on it even harder in the NBA. The Jimmer is a senior, correct? You'd think he'd show a bit more effort by now.

JJ did improve his defense but mostly in the NBA because it was the only way he was going to get off the Orlando bench. His senior year he really worked on creating his own shot. JJ was never known as a defensive stopper in college but in the NBA there is a guy name Ray Allen that hates to see Orlando on the schedule because of JJ.

[Duvall]

That may be so, though I do think JJ's defense improved over time, and they say he's worked on it even harder in the NBA. The Jimmer is a senior, correct? You'd think he'd show a bit more effort by now.

That may be a conscious choice to save effort for the offensive end. Judging by BYU's other players, they *need* Fredette to score 40 on a lot of nights.

[Bluedevil114]

That may be a conscious choice to save effort for the offensive end. Judging by BYU's other players, they *need* Fredette to score 40 on a lot of nights.

Agreed!! SDSU just wants to run and score in transition, BYU has two players but if Fredette is off they probably lose by 20 points against a quality team. But he is a really good player.

[RoyalBlue08]

First time I saw Jimmer play....this kid is the real deal. Very, very impressive.

[Dr. Tina]

Jimmer is a great offensive weapon, and you're right that it could be a conscious choice to have him conserve energy by doing the minimum on offense, but I'll still take Nolan or Kyle before him....YMMV

[gep]

I haven't seen him play... can a good defensive team with a good defensive scheme "stop" him... or at least "slow him down"? In this SDSU game, scoring by players went 43, 14, 6, 4, 2, 2. Can he be stopped? Doesn't seem like Larry Bird's strategy on MJ will work here.

If I recall correctly, Bird said about MJ... "let him get his. Keep the rest of the team down and we win". MJ had 63, Chicago lost.

[Duvall]

I haven't seen him play... can a good defensive team with a good defensive scheme "stop" him... or at least "slow him down"? In this SDSU game, scoring by players went 43, 14, 6, 4, 2, 2. Can he be stopped? Doesn't seem like Larry Bird's strategy on MJ will work here.


It didn't work here, but SDSU struggled to score in a road game at altitude. On a neutral floor I think it could work.

[ElSid]

It didn't work here, but SDSU struggled to score in a road game at altitude. On a neutral floor I think it could work.

plus SDSU's best player was sick and couldn't keep any food down today. was on fluids earlier. makes a difference. but they just don't have enough shooters and i was surprised at how effective the interior was for BYU. lots of blocks and disrupted shots. SDSU is legit, but I think if you clog the lane they're going to have trouble since they don't seem to have much for outside shooting.

as for jimmer...he's better than i thought.

[jammsb]

The similarity to JJ is a point well taken. Although never a defensive standout at Duke, I never doubted that he worked hard at improving his defensive ability. If he didn't he would not have played as much as he did. Its unfair of me to say this because I've only seen him play three times, but I will anyway. Jimmer doesn't appear to put the defensive effort into his play that JJ did. The one thing he appears to have over JJ at this point in their careers, is that looks to be much more of a physical speciman.

[stillcrazie]

Fredette's offense is lights out, but I'm very underwhelmed by his ability to play on defense whatsoever. I'm thinking it must be easy to have so much energy on offense when you stand around and make a halfhearted attempt to guard on the other end. I will take Nolan Smith over him any day!

BTW - the journalists fawning over the Jimmer is getting to the point where the Jaws of Life wouldn't be able to remove their lips from his butt.

On a totally different note, ESPN's live chat doesn't seem to acknowledge female comments unless they come from Dana O'Neil. I've posted multiple comments under my own name about the BYU game and have not had one posted, so I decided to change my name to a male one. I tried with several different male names and each time at least one of my comments made it on the live chat blog almost immediately.

Dr. Tina, that is crazy. You should let ESPN know about that. But you may want to use a male name if you want them to read it. That is awful.

[rsvman]

The Jimmer show!

That's what last night's game was, for sure.

anybody who watched that game and still thinks Jimmer isn't for real is either blind or an idiot. His range is completely ludicrous, and on his drives almost every shot looks like a circus shot, but almost all of them fall.

They say he scored 43, but there was a blatant (and I mean BLATANT) goaltend on one of his shots, so he really should've been credited with 45.

The Jimmer show is pretty amazing. If you didn't see the game, try to find it, or watch another BYU game sometime.

[Law Talking Guy]

I haven't been able to watch BYU that much (combination of East Coast Bias and time difference), so could someone who has enlighten as to what sorts of defenses people have thrown at the Cougs/Jimmer? He seems like an obvious candidate for a Box-and-1 or a Triangle-and-2 (if they have another scoring threat), but the coverage I have seen centers more on his point totals and his rapping brother (!) rather than on how/if he defeats good defensive schemes.

If teams have run those schemes on him, have they been badly executed or is he/the team just good at defeating them (e.g., by running him off multiple screens like we did with JJ)?

[rsvman]

I haven't been able to watch BYU that much (combination of East Coast Bias and time difference), so could someone who has enlighten as to what sorts of defenses people have thrown at the Cougs/Jimmer? He seems like an obvious candidate for a Box-and-1 or a Triangle-and-2 (if they have another scoring threat), but the coverage I have seen centers more on his point totals and his rapping brother (!) rather than on how/if he defeats good defensive schemes.

If teams have run those schemes on him, have they been badly executed or is he/the team just good at defeating them (e.g., by running him off multiple screens like we did with JJ)?

Opposing teams have tried almost everything. It is very difficult to stop him. If you use a box and one, you better have an outstanding lock-down defender on him. The problem is that he only needs a fraction of a second and a tiny bit of room to get the shot off. He has an incredibly quick release. Also, he can hit shots from 27 feet away almost as accurately as he does from 21, so you can't fall off him at all. He can also go around you if you get overly aggressive, and once he's past you he's equally adept at the floater, the pull-up jumper, the fadeaway jumper, or the circus lay-up, so you can't make a back-up plan to stop him.

He doesn't require multiple screens because he can get his own shot off much more effectively than JJ could. Occasionally they do bring him off the low screen to the wing the way we did with JJ, and he is deadly on that shot as well.

[gw67]

Opposing teams have tried almost everything. It is very difficult to stop him. If you use a box and one, you better have an outstanding lock-down defender on him. The problem is that he only needs a fraction of a second and a tiny bit of room to get the shot off. He has an incredibly quick release. Also, he can hit shots from 27 feet away almost as accurately as he does from 21, so you can't fall off him at all. He can also go around you if you get overly aggressive, and once he's past you he's equally adept at the floater, the pull-up jumper, the fadeaway jumper, or the circus lay-up, so you can't make a back-up plan to stop him.

He doesn't require multiple screens because he can get his own shot off much more effectively than JJ could. Occasionally they do bring him off the low screen to the wing the way we did with JJ, and he is deadly on that shot as well.

Your description is on the money based on the limited number of times I've seen Fredette play. He is an outstanding offensive player who carries a very big load for his team. I believe the rest of the BYU team shot 0% from 3-point and only about 30% from the field last night. Comparing him to Smith and/or Singler is very difficult for me because of the different circumstances under which each plays. Suffice it to say that he has carried an average team to top ten status and deserves consideration for first team All America and NPOY.

gw67

[94duke]

So I casually watched the game last night. I wasn't paying too close attention, but I was trying to see how SDSU was guarding the Jimmer. They tried to have a few different guys guard him, but did anyone besides me think that SDSU wasn't guarding the Jimmer close enough? It seemed like they were giving him too much space, considering his quick release and extended range.
Am I off-base here?
Thanks.

[bluedvl]

He is awesome why he was over looked by coach K?

[Neals384]

I haven't been able to watch BYU that much (combination of East Coast Bias and time difference), so could someone who has enlighten as to what sorts of defenses people have thrown at the Cougs/Jimmer? He seems like an obvious candidate for a Box-and-1 or a Triangle-and-2 (if they have another scoring threat), but the coverage I have seen centers more on his point totals and his rapping brother (!) rather than on how/if he defeats good defensive schemes.

If teams have run those schemes on him, have they been badly executed or is he/the team just good at defeating them (e.g., by running him off multiple screens like we did with JJ)?

I thought the SDSU defense was pretty good, and they tried different things. They tried man D, he could drive past his man. They tried double-teaming him outside the three point line, he gave up the ball and was open when he got it back. They even tried using one of their bigs to guard him - that player went to the bench - out of breath - in just a couple minutes. Jimmer is a scoring machine.

Here's one thing I didn't like about his game(besides weak D, mentioned by others). On several drives he went up for a shot, saw that he was going to be blocked, and made a quick pass instead. Amazingly, I don't think any of these were turnovers, but I think Jimmer could make better decisions before he gets airborn. If Duke plays them, we will pick off those passes!

[hq2]

I assume folks have read the SI article about him? The verdict on him in the NBA is mixed; they're not sure he can play at that level, but someone may give him a chance.

[Neals384]

One interesting thing to note about Jimmer so far this season, he has been a much bigger scorer on the road than at home, which is quite unusual. In road games he has scored 32, 13, 26, 25, 28, 34, 39, and 47 points for an average of 30.5 ppg. In home games he has scored 24, 26, 27, 16, 16, 33, 25, 22 for an average of 23.6 pgg.

--Jason "he's not just a gunner as his shooting percentage is a very impressive 48%" Evans

I wonder if the altitude has something to do with that? Against SDSU, he seemed to tire at the end. Jimmer was just 1 for 5 form the field the last 10 minutes. Although he's in great shape, maybe playing 39 minuites at altitude is a bit much for him.

Ofd course, the altitude also affected SDSU - they really seemed to run out of gas in the 2H.

[Law Talking Guy]

Opposing teams have tried almost everything. It is very difficult to stop him. If you use a box and one, you better have an outstanding lock-down defender on him. The problem is that he only needs a fraction of a second and a tiny bit of room to get the shot off. He has an incredibly quick release. Also, he can hit shots from 27 feet away almost as accurately as he does from 21, so you can't fall off him at all. He can also go around you if you get overly aggressive, and once he's past you he's equally adept at the floater, the pull-up jumper, the fadeaway jumper, or the circus lay-up, so you can't make a back-up plan to stop him.

He doesn't require multiple screens because he can get his own shot off much more effectively than JJ could. Occasionally they do bring him off the low screen to the wing the way we did with JJ, and he is deadly on that shot as well.

Apropos of this conversation:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/luke_winn/01/25/defending.jimmer.fredette/index.html

It appears, as rsvman said, that the key isn't as much the scheme as it is the defender.

[Kfanarmy]

BTW - the journalists fawning over the Jimmer is getting to the point where the Jaws of Life wouldn't be able to remove their lips from his butt.

On a totally different note, ESPN's live chat doesn't seem to acknowledge female comments unless they come from Dana O'Neil. I've posted multiple comments under my own name about the BYU game and have not had one posted, so I decided to change my name to a male one. I tried with several different male names and each time at least one of my comments made it on the live chat blog almost immediately.



While your 1st point is amusing, the guy was incredible, single-handedly keeping his team in the game on offense for long stretches.

and I'm not sure what your claiming ESPN is doing wrong on your 2nd point, ;-)

[rsvman]

Apropos of this conversation:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/luke_winn/01/25/defending.jimmer.fredette/index.html

It appears, as rsvman said, that the key isn't as much the scheme as it is the defender.

an interesting excerpt from the linked article (quoting verbatim):


As just one of two coaches who's faced player of the year candidates Fredette and UConn's Kemba Walker this season, Heath has some perspective on the skills of the nation's two best scoring machines. "I asked my staff, after we played Kemba [on Dec. 31], which player was harder to guard," Heath said. "We all thought it was close, but we said Fredette, just because his shooting range is a little more extended. And while Kemba is quicker and more explosive, Fredette's changes-of-speed, plus his hops and step-back moves, make him better. And when he elevates to shoot, he really gets up in the air, more than Kemba."

If Fredette ranks ahead of Walker, then The Jimmer has to be considered the hardest player to guard in the country.



Read more: http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/luke_winn/01/25/defending.jimmer.fredette/index.html#ixzz1CG8fro8q

[gw67]

Apropos of this conversation:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2011/writers/luke_winn/01/25/defending.jimmer.fredette/index.html

It appears, as rsvman said, that the key isn't as much the scheme as it is the defender.

The comments by Haith at the end of the article where he favorably compares Fredette to Walker (his team played both) are interesting. I see him as a bigger, stronger, less quick version of Curry during his last year at Davidson.

gw67

[Dr. Tina]

Dr. Tina, that is crazy. You should let ESPN know about that. But you may want to use a male name if you want them to read it. That is awful.

I wrote to Eammon Brennon - one of their bloggers - and he responded to say he doesn't know how many chats I've sat in on, but there have been a lot of times that females have been able to respond in the chat. He claims it was unintentional on the part of ESPN moderators. I'll be interested to see what kind of difference there is the next time they have a live chat blog going for a big game.

[JasonEvans]

He is awesome why he was over looked by coach K?

Yeah, why doesn't Duke have Sullinger, JaJuan Johnson, and Kemba Walker too?

Jimmer was not a well-known commodity coming out of high school in tiny Glen Falls, NY. ESPN rated him as the 71st best shooting guard in the class of 2007. He was unranked by Scout and Rivals. He had scholarship offers from schools like Siena, UMass, and Marshall. He only averaged 7 ppg as a freshman at BYU. I doubt he would have gotten the playing time necessary to become a star had he come to Duke or some other high-major program.

-Jason "was this a serious question?" Evans

[IBleedBlue]

It would be interesting to see how he performs when matched up with evergreen defensive teams like Butler, Purdue and Duke. These teams have atleast one lock down defender and the entire team plays solid defense.

[Dr. Tina]

While your 1st point is amusing, the guy was incredible, single-handedly keeping his team in the game on offense for long stretches.

and I'm not sure what your claiming ESPN is doing wrong on your 2nd point, ;-)

Jimmer Fredette is terrific. I'm not debating that. My only criticism in looking at his play objectively is to say that I think his defense leaves a lot to be desired. Other than that, his range and ability to score is extremely impressive. Regarding the journalists, while I understand how much they love him and why, they act a lot like crazy fan girls at a Justin Bieber concert!

[Neals384]

They say he scored 43, but there was a blatant (and I mean BLATANT) goaltend on one of his shots, so he really should've been credited with 45.

Yes, there was no question it was a goaltend. Isn't that something the refs can go to the monitor to review? There was a stoppage of play immediately after.

[dukelifer]

It is interesting that the AP preseason AA candidates had Singler, Pullen, JaJuan Johnson, Barnes and Fredette. The only one that is now a lock is Fredette. The other lock is Sullinger. After that I would argue Kemba Walker is almost a lock- leaving two spots. Nolan is looking good, but the others listed by AP in the pre-season have work to do.

[magjayran]

The comments by Haith at the end of the article where he favorably compares Fredette to Walker (his team played both) are interesting. I see him as a bigger, stronger, less quick version of Curry during his last year at Davidson.

gw67

I'm glad you made the Curry comparison. It drives me crazy when people want to use race as a criteria for comparing players. I've seen a lot of comparisons to Mark Price, JJ, even Pistol Pete (!!?!?!?) but very few to Steph Curry. In the clips that I've seen plus the game I've seen in its entirety that comparison jumps out the most to me. Similar shooting ability all the way to NBA range, great step back moves that set up great drives, good but not great athleticism, and that killer instinct that screams "winner." I think that Steph might have Jimmer's handle beat by just a hair and Jimmer's range is even longer than Steph's. Other than that, I see two very similar players. Steph's junior year I tried to DVR every single game I could that he was in and I plan to start doing the same for Jimmer. Kicking myself that I didn't start earlier.

As far as NBA potential, Jimmer needs to work harder on defense for sure but he won't be the first player drafted with that need. I'd like to point out that he's pretty well developed in terms of muscle so even though he's not the tallest guy around I don't see him getting pushed around by too many people. If I was a GM, I'd definitely want to bring him in for workouts and would do my best to match him up against the best defenders I could. If he starts torching quality defenders and shows a willingness to work hard on defense, then I think he could be a Steph Curry redux or even a Gilbert Arenas with less issues.

[burnspbesq]

I've only seen him in the two games against SDSU, but my initial reaction is that Jimmer isn't much of an on-ball defender. If we see BYU in the tournament, I think we would very well advised to make him a focal point of our attack. If we make him chase Nolan/Seth/Dre/Ty around a thousand or so screens, I think we will like the results. And if he switches on those screens and ends up guarding Kyle, the ball has to go to Kyle in the low post. Wear him out or get him in foul trouble.

[toooskies]

On the other hand, can anyone guard Jimmer?

[Andre Buckner Fan]

On the other hand, can anyone guard Jimmer?

Simple. Put three people on Jimmer and make the rest of the team beat you.

LSU did it to JJ and it worked perfectly (even with Sheldon on the team). One man teams do not make it far in the tourney. Sorry BYU...

[Bob Green]

Simple. Put three people on Jimmer and make the rest of the team beat you.

LSU did it to JJ and it worked perfectly (even with Sheldon on the team). One man teams do not make it far in the tourney. Sorry BYU...

BYU is not a one man team. I commented on this in the This Week in the Top 25 thread:


I watched the 1st half and then listen to most of the 2nd half on the radio as I had some running around to do. Jimmer Fredette had 25 points and nine assists, while Kawhi Leonard recorded a 17 points and 13 rebounds double-double. The difference was BYU's supporting cast stepping up and playing great. Charles Abouo had 18 points and Noah Hartsock 15 points. The two combined to shoot 7-9 on 3-pointers. The Cougars were 14-24 overall from behind the 3-point line. 58.3% from the bonusphere is a remarkable performance. BYU will be a tough out in the NCAAT.

[jipops]

Simple. Put three people on Jimmer and make the rest of the team beat you.

LSU did it to JJ and it worked perfectly (even with Sheldon on the team). One man teams do not make it far in the tourney. Sorry BYU...

But BYU isn't a one man team. They had 4 guys in double figures at SDSU.

[superdave]

Irregardless of Fredette's defense, BYU has now pushed SDSU down a notch. They are definitely a 2 seed and could play their way into a 1 if they win out. Texas is a 2.

But no, Jimmer cant guard. And JJ is a good comparison because the whole offense is geared around his abilities.

[SuperTurkey]

Simple. Put three people on Jimmer and make the rest of the team beat you.

LSU did it to JJ and it worked perfectly (even with Sheldon on the team). One man teams do not make it far in the tourney. Sorry BYU...

There was no Sheldon on the team.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

But BYU isn't a one man team. They had 4 guys in double figures at SDSU.

True, there are always four other people on the court. :cool:

But count me among the unconvinced. I have not been overly impressed with any of BYU's wins and they have one horrible loss to New Mexico (UCLA is an okay loss). In addition they are wildly streaky. If they are indeed made a one seed I would not be too surprised to see them in a Final Four or to see them lose to a 16 seed (like say New Mexico).

[ajgoodfella7]

I agree with Bob here. To me, this BYU team is reminiscent of last year's Butler squad in that they kind of have a bunch of guys who can sneak up on you. I think the one area that they differ is that they don't have the on-ball defenders that Butler had in Mack and Nored. But I think BYU has the potential to make a nice tournament run this year.

[loldevilz]

Simple. Put three people on Jimmer and make the rest of the team beat you.

LSU did it to JJ and it worked perfectly (even with Sheldon on the team). One man teams do not make it far in the tourney. Sorry BYU...

I have to disagree with you here. If you watch BYU you realize that they are a complete team. Emery is a very good guard. Hartsock is a big man that can shoot the three. Abuou can score inside.

Since Jimmer is not a particularly efficient scorer when he doesn't get to the foul line, it seems to me that what you need to do is keep Jimmer off the foul line and not let his teammates get open looks. Of course, easier said than done.

This BYU team will be very dangerous in the tournament. The most underrated aspect is their defense. I was very impressed by the way their interior defense didn't allow SDSU to get anything going inside. I wouldn't be surprised to see them in Huston.

[tieguy]

Yeah, they're not a 1-dimensional team; lots of efficient scorers on the team. That said, I think we'd match up pretty well against them- we should be able to beat them badly on the boards, and I would like our odds of exploiting Jimmer defensively. And would much prefer them to, say, Texas as our two seed. (Though I'm guessing at this point they are probably a one seed if they take care of business; they've got hype, and a top 4 RPI, even if their losses are substantially worse than ours, OSU's, KU's, and Pitt's.)

[Wander]

But count me among the unconvinced. I have not been overly impressed with any of BYU's wins and they have one horrible loss to New Mexico (UCLA is an okay loss). In addition they are wildly streaky. If they are indeed made a one seed I would not be too surprised to see them in a Final Four or to see them lose to a 16 seed (like say New Mexico).

New Mexico is widely considered to have one of the best home court advantages in the sport. I'm not going to argue that they're a great team or that BYU shouldn't have won the game, but losing a true road game there isn't a "horrible loss," like say, St John's losing to Fordham at home. It's probably about the same as Duke losing at NC State last year.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

I agree with Bob here. To me, this BYU team is reminiscent of last year's Butler squad in that they kind of have a bunch of guys who can sneak up on you. I think the one area that they differ is that they don't have the on-ball defenders that Butler had in Mack and Nored. But I think BYU has the potential to make a nice tournament run this year.

I'm not sure I agree with the comparison. BYU has a great deal of hype. Butler was not as noticed last year until after their run.

I'm being a little harsh. BYU is a good basketball team. However, their reputation and their hype is wildly over-inflated because it makes a great angle.

[ajgoodfella7]

I'm not sure I agree with the comparison. BYU has a great deal of hype. Butler was not as noticed last year until after their run.

I'm being a little harsh. BYU is a good basketball team. However, their reputation and their hype is wildly over-inflated because it makes a great angle.

I wasn't in any way comparing the amount of hype that both teams were given at this point in their respective seasons, I was comparing the teams themselves on the court.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

I wasn't in any way comparing the amount of hype that both teams were given at this point in their respective seasons, I was comparing the teams themselves on the court.

Oh okay. I misunderstood "sneak up on you."

[RoyalBlue08]

I've only seen him in the two games against SDSU, but my initial reaction is that Jimmer isn't much of an on-ball defender. If we see BYU in the tournament, I think we would very well advised to make him a focal point of our attack. If we make him chase Nolan/Seth/Dre/Ty around a thousand or so screens, I think we will like the results. And if he switches on those screens and ends up guarding Kyle, the ball has to go to Kyle in the low post. Wear him out or get him in foul trouble.

Everytime I have seen BYU play, they have played almost exclusively zone. I don't think Jimmer is going to be chasing anyone around the court anytime soon.

[tieguy]

I was very impressed by the way their interior defense didn't allow SDSU to get anything going inside.

Dunno... I think a lot of that was SDSU being tight and missing a lot of point-blank second-chance opportunities, especially in the first half. Not that they are a bad defensive team, but clearly offense is their strength, and I don't think today changed that- they allowed SDSU to score 1.21 points per possession, and average only 1.08 in conference play.

[ajgoodfella7]

Oh okay. I misunderstood "sneak up on you."

I was speaking to the fact that the rest of BYU's individual players seem to not get any attention because of the fact that they play with Fredette. And "sneak up on you" was directed more toward people that haven't watched these other guys play, not the actual teams they are going up against. Fredette is a great player, but they also have a few other very good college players on that team.

[ice-9]

BYU looked great today - their entire supporting cast played well. However, I have a theory about BYU: while this team is clearly more than just Jimmer, they're spiritually dependent on him. When they see him make those wild shots, it somehow becomes easier to make theirs. But when Jimmer begins clanking them... Harrass Jimmer into a bad game and the others just might follow. Will the supporting cast step it up? Maybe for a game or two, but probably not more. If Jimmer goes into a shooting slump this team would be quite ordinary.

I too would prefer Texas as our 2 seed than BYU. While they're clearly more than one player, they're still built around that one player, and those types of teams are more vulnerable to an upset in the tournament.

[Gthoma2a]

Am I the only one who feels that there is a general bias towards everything Jimmer this year that is heavily overrating his team? Feel free to move this if there is already a thread that it fits in.

I am not saying that Jimmer isn't very good, but he is purely a scorer, and he is the only guy on a team that doesn't play that many tough opponents. If we are looking at strength of schedule, they have three "quality" wins. They have beaten Arizona (from a weak Pac-10), and San Diego State twice (only key win against an underwhelming Gonzaga team). Can anybody else tell me why, other than a single name that they are trying to sell with all their might, this team is in talks for a #1 seed?

Jimmer is a very good scorer, but against the competition he plays against, Nolan would be averaging 40-50 and playing defense. Jimmer is an Adam Morrison (good player in a weak league), but I think it is close on player of the year. With that said, overvaluing a team should not be the way that broadcasters try to justify a player doing well against weak opposition as the better college player than a leader for a team that is 7-2 against the top 50. I just don't see another reason that BYU is being touted as a 1 seed.

[uh_no]

I am not saying that Jimmer isn't very good, but he is purely a scorer, and he is the only guy on a team that doesn't play that many tough opponents. If we are looking at strength of schedule, they have three "quality" wins. They have beaten Arizona (from a weak Pac-10), and San Diego State twice (only key win against an underwhelming Gonzaga team). Can anybody else tell me why, other than a single name that they are trying to sell with all their might, this team is in talks for a #1 seed?



How many quality wins do we have? 1? they have a better SOS than us....

[Bluedevil114]

Put Nolan Smith on Jimmer then see how good he is.

[Gthoma2a]

How many quality wins do we have? 1? they have a better SOS than us....

This has to be sarcastic. Kenpom says otherwise.

[uh_no]

This has to be sarcastic. Kenpom says otherwise.

things changed since january :P either way, we still only have 1 win against a title contender (which beats BYU's 0) but its not like our schedule was the highway to hell either...

[gw67]

I the odd main out on this site regarding this issue. I like Smith, Fredette and Sullinger. I'd like to see Smith win it but both Fredette and Sullinger are very deserving and to try to make Smith look better by putting those guys down, doesn't make sense to me. Further, I found it mildly amusing that DBR and posters didn't mention Fredette's 52 points yesterday when he carried his team to victory.

Both Sullinger and Fredette have played sterner opposition than Duke has and have certainly played as well as Smith this year. Voters will judge it however they want. To me it is not who is the best player (I suspect that the NBA draft will show us that) but it is about who has had the best season. It is not black or white. Sullinger is the best player on the best team. Smith is the best player on a loaded Duke team. Fredette is the best player on a BYU team who doesn't have a single player, other than Fredette himself, who could start for OSU or Duke and would not have been a top 25 team except for Fredette's play. Fredette has gotten some noteriety this year but nowhere near the East Coast/national TV exposure that the other two players have gotten. I suspect that the three will split the awards.

gw67

[Dr. Tina]

Fredette has gotten some noteriety this year but nowhere near the East Coast/national TV exposure that the other two players have gotten. I suspect that the three will split the awards.

gw67

It's been the Jimmer Show for quite awhile among sports media outlets, including their broadcasters and writers. From what I know, Jimmer's conference has their own TV deal, which kept BYU's games from being on ESPN and other channels most people would get. I know that the East Coast gets a lot of publicity, but I think the media at large has done their level best to push Jimmer most of the season.

[dukee94]

It's been the Jimmer Show for quite awhile among sports media outlets, including their broadcasters and writers. From what I know, Jimmer's conference has their own TV deal, which kept BYU's games from being on ESPN and other channels most people would get. I know that the East Coast gets a lot of publicity, but I think the media at large has done their level best to push Jimmer most of the season.

The conference has a deal with "The Mountain" network (http://www.themtn.tv/). I'm sure it is carried somewhere . . . I live in San Diego and haven't been able to watch SDSU this year. BYU is leaving the conference next season, I have heard one reason is to escape from the tv deal that stops them from getting any coverage. (I'm being slightly sarcastic, DirecTV doesn't carry it, but one of the local cable providers, COX, does, just not in HD).

[gw67]

It's been the Jimmer Show for quite awhile among sports media outlets, including their broadcasters and writers. From what I know, Jimmer's conference has their own TV deal, which kept BYU's games from being on ESPN and other channels most people would get. I know that the East Coast gets a lot of publicity, but I think the media at large has done their level best to push Jimmer most of the season.

I am certainly not pushing Fredette but I watch a lot of college basketball and I've seen Smith and Sullinger play a bunch and I've seen Fredette play one game and part of another this year. Frankly, I was impressed by what I saw. Unlike Sullinger and Smith who play with several talented players, Fredette has been the object of gimmick defenses every game. As a "fan" we want our favorites to do well and win awards. However, we ought to be fair, particularly, in a year where no one player stands out above the rest.

Just my two cents.

gw67

[cptnflash]

With that said, overvaluing a team should not be the way that broadcasters try to justify a player doing well against weak opposition as the better college player than a leader for a team that is 7-2 against the top 50. I just don't see another reason that BYU is being touted as a 1 seed.

I don't think anyone is talking about BYU as a #1 seed anymore, now that they've lost 2 of 5 without Brandon Davies. But the numbers (particurlaly kPOY) suggest that Jimmer has had a slightly better season than Nolan. And the previous post about Jimmer being the object of gimmick defenses is right on the money. In the SDSU game a couple weeks ago, he was being double-teamed 30 feet from the basket. Seriously. Other teams certainly game plan Nolan, but not to that degree. Nolan has had a phenomenal season and is without question a better defender than Jimmer, and I think we're a much better team than BYU, but the numbers don't lie - Jimmer is the best offensive player in the country, and will be a very deserving winner of POY awards.

[dukelifer]

I am certainly not pushing Fredette but I watch a lot of college basketball and I've seen Smith and Sullinger play a bunch and I've seen Fredette play one game and part of another this year. Frankly, I was impressed by what I saw. Unlike Sullinger and Smith who play with several talented players, Fredette has been the object of gimmick defenses every game. As a "fan" we want our favorites to do well and win awards. However, we ought to be fair, particularly, in a year where no one player stands out above the rest.

Just my two cents.

gw67

Fredette is a very good player who is more than just a shooter. He is very strong and can get to the hoop when he needs to. All three players are talents- but Fredette is not good because he has played weak competition- he is just good.