MBB: Duke 71, Maryland 64 Post-Game Thread

[Bob Green]

Discuss the game here.

[SCMatt33]

Three Thoughts:

1. Tyler Thornton

2. Maryland must be really effing tired of "quality losses"

3. TYLER THORNTON!!!!

[lotusland]

MOTM = Singler's barber

[House G]

Thank you Mr. Thornton!

[mapei]

Tyler's coming-out game, but Kyle won it for us, team on his back.

[jv001]

Tyler and Seth really stepped up for us in the 2nd half. Seth scored 12 points that were really needed in this defensive minded game. Go Duke!

[CLW]

Thornton and Singler were HUGE tonight.

The Plumlees have looked lost since KI went down to an injury. We are going to need one of them to at least pose a threat down in the post or it could be trouble against a more talented squad deep in March.

[BleedsP287]

Tyler was the man tonight. Disappointed in the Plumlees, I'm not seeing it from them yet despite everyone's hopes and expectations.

Why did they take our 2 points away when we went up 56-65? I never saw an explanation, was there a foul or something on Miles' slam?

[DukeBlueHeart4]

1. Thank God for Tyler Thornton.
2. Even though Nolan wasn't as explosive offensively, I'd still take his "off-game" to just about anyone other player's A-game.
3. The Plumlees have got to start using some basketball IQ. I know they've got to have some but they just made a few ill advised moves tonight. That being said, I'll give it up to Miles, who didn't make quite as many of those plays as I've seen him make in the past.
4. Man do I love Seth Curry.
5. Where was Kyrie? I don't remember seeing him.

[moonpie23]

man, what a great game with a satisfying outcome...

:)


nolan with a great horrible game again....

[SMO]

At least we won both halves;)

[jipops]

Nothing at all surprising about this game. Just another hard fought battle with an extremely well coached Maryland team. Our turnovers were directly related to the great D Maryland plays and the fact that we haven't played against this type of defense without our pg.

Huge props to Tyler, Seth and our usual suspects Kyle and Nolan. Big ups to Nolan for fighting through a tough game.

We used the small lineup for just about the entire 2nd half. And we had to. I think it's our best lineup right now with KI out.

[DukieInBrasil]

I had said in some other thread that I didn't think that either Tyler or Josh would play an important role in any ACC games this year. I am proud to say that I was wrong, Tyler's play tonight was instrumental in the win. His defensive presence in the 2nd half allowed us to find the breathing room necessary to win. Congrats Tyler!

[MartyClark]

Discuss the game here.

Good news - We showed a lot of heart on a night when the outside shots were not falling. Nolan did not have a great shooting game but was still a difference maker. Tyler Thornton had a good game - very promising future. Kyle had a good game despite a slow start.

Bad news - We have no low post offense. The Plumlees are simply not a scoring threat. Bad footwork, bad hands and no ability to score in the low post against a tough team.

I don't mean to disparage any college kid, especially young men who are trying hard and seem to be good guys, but both Plumlees give me great concern.

[YourLandlord]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

[DukeBlueHeart4]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

Those steals kind of sparked the team when we were barely looking like a top 15 team, let alone the number one team in the nation.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

I second that. I couldn't get the game on TV. From the stat sheet Tyler looks okay but not amazing. What happened?

[dukestheheat]

....since the streak of tough games right before the Christmas break; I am proud that Duke could hold on and gut it out. Maryland is a good team and they pushed us hard tonight. The team took that push in stride and they were able to overcome the Maryland lead and get it done when they had to! Thornton, Dawkins and Curry really helped Duke a lot, and it's GREAT to see those guys get time on the floor!

dth.

[SMO]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

Yes, and he really disrupted MD's flow on offense and drew a few fouls. His D was better than anyone on the floor tonight.

[78Devil]

I was only able to follow the game on line via espn. So its hard to know how it would seem live. But I was not impressed by the Free Throws. In a tight game, I think I counted that we missed 5 of the last 6. Not cool.

Turnovers were high as well.

Would those who watched put that down to good Md. defense, or were we not well prepared mentally and didn't turn in a good effort? If it was good Md. defense, what did they do? Press/Zone/Overplay? Was it a matchup issue?

[BattierBattalion]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

It wasn't just the four steals. Thornton did a lot of little things. He drew a charge on Jordan Williams. He frustrated a bunch of Maryland players into coughing it up to another Duke player. He stabilized the offense. I'm sure his plus minus is like +50.

[KandG]

Nice to see Tyler break out tonight. Devils were outplayed by the Terps, frankly -- outrebounded, outassisted...if Gary's guys had made more FTs, the two teams might still be playing right now. But all the credit to Duke for picking up the defense in the 2nd half after falling behind by six, and gutting it out against a well-coached team playing at a very high level.

Irving or no Irving, this team's softness inside remains a concern. Jordan Williams is a good player, but it seems like any bruiser on the other team, regardless of height or talent level, gives this team problems. Not sure what it's going to take to bridge the massive gap between Plumlees/Kelly this year and Lance/Zoubs last year in terms of rebounding and inside defense.

[IBleedBlue]

I am impressed with Jordan Williams. This kid is a beast. He comes in and eats the breakfast, lunch and dinner of the plumlees.
Miles and Mason need to develop post moves. As Jay Williams mentioned, this is where we are weak. And Maryland exploited it when the 3 point shots aren't falling. A win is a win at the end of the day.

[JMarley50]

Tyler and Seth, definitely were the spark that was needed to survive this one. Kyle carried the team on his back until they were able to help. Its nice knowing that when either Kyle or Nolan are having a bad night, the other always seems to pick up the slack. I hate to say it but I'm starting to lose hope as far as the Plumlees are concerned. They are great athletes, but until they start making better decisions, things aren't going to improve.

In the end I guess it was another hard fought win in conference play. I'll stop there before I'm accused of being a negative nellie again.

[arnie]

Nothing at all surprising about this game. Just another hard fought battle with an extremely well coached Maryland team. Our turnovers were directly related to the great D Maryland plays and the fact that we haven't played against this type of defense without our pg.

Huge props to Tyler, Seth and our usual suspects Kyle and Nolan. Big ups to Nolan for fighting through a tough game.

We used the small lineup for just about the entire 2nd half. And we had to. I think it's our best lineup right now with KI out.

Our best lineup is definitely one Plumlee, Singler and 3 guards. Good news is take your pick on the guards, all are solid. A little hard on Singler to play inside so much, but he's at least used to it. The Plumlees need to simply focus on rebounding and defense and no need to take a shot further out than 2-feet.

[Bob Green]

What did Thornton do?

He changed the complexion of the game by playing tough defense, taking a charge, stripped Jordan Williams on a rebound...

Thornton was huge in the second half.

[CDu]

I second that. I couldn't get the game on TV. From the stat sheet Tyler looks okay but not amazing. What happened?

Thornton was very pesky at just the right time. He made several key plays during the stretch in which we came back from down 6, including drawing two offensive fouls.

[lotusland]

Yes, and he really disrupted MD's flow on offense and drew a few fouls. His D was better than anyone on the floor tonight.

Also MD defense was very good and I thought having another solid ball handler allowed Nolan some room to be Nolan on offense in the second half.

[cptnflash]

Tyler was the man tonight. Disappointed in the Plumlees, I'm not seeing it from them yet despite everyone's hopes and expectations.

Why did they take our 2 points away when we went up 56-65? I never saw an explanation, was there a foul or something on Miles' slam?

Miles didn't have a slam. It didn't go in. He tried to make the highlight reel play instead of making sure he got the rebound.

[Greg_Newton]

We saw the dangers of being an outside-in team tonight, but luckily we pulled it out. As posted elsewhere, Tyler and Seth really came with some verve and toughness that we were sorely lacking, and gave us a very necessary boost. I love how Tyler will just get up in anyone's grill, and really throw them off their game.

Miles looked pretty good tonight, all things considered. The one thing he needs to get better at is using his butt when posting up. He does this very well when boxing out or sealing off his man, but it's like he gets self conscious and stands straight up with executing a back to the basket move. He needs to get down and dig into the defender with his posterior, or else there's no point in a power dribble.

[Saratoga2]

Maryland was guarding Nolan closely and for most of the first half was preventing him from getting to the basket cleanly and slapping at the ball when he tried to drive. Maybe a little too much one on one play trying to carry the team. He was havingtrouble with turnovers against this defense, as was the team in general. The good news is Singler was on tonight and they didn't really have a defensive answer for him..

Great that Thornton came in a gave us some really good minutes. I think the +/- for him will be good. Loved his alertness and defense. Nolan seemed to do better with him in the game.

Both Dawkins and Curry can put up points efficiently. Twenty between them helped to make up for the 6 total from our bigs. While Kelly can get the shot off from behind the arc, he has a very flat shot and has not been hitting. I would rather see Dawkins or Curry taking those and of course Singler was hitting from 3 tonight as well.

It was discouraging to see Mason come up with 5 fouls and no points. He really has too much talent for that stat line. Miles was a little better, but at least they gave us inside defensive presence.

The distribution of points was fairly consistent with the norm, with Singler/Smith getting 43. Curry and Dawkins 20 with Thorton also getting 2, but our bigs at 6 points was off what we need from them.

I think we had at least 17 TOs tonight, so that wasn't good.

15-0 and neither Ohio St or Kansas played that well, so we should easily stay at number one.

[jipops]

I know some our discouraged with the Plumlee's individual results tonight, but don't omit the fact that Miles had 8 boards and Mason had 6 boards in only 18 minutes of play. Though they made a number of mistakes tonight they did do an excellent job on the boards.

[Bob Green]

If it was good Md. defense, what did they do? Press/Zone/Overplay? Was it a matchup issue?

Maryland lured Duke into having the wrong players taking the shots. Ryan Kelly 0-4 on 3-pointers, Mason and Miles both missing jump shots, plus Nolan Smith was pressing himself the whole game. They disrupted our offensive flow.

[obsesseddukefan]

Well the good imho, Tyler Thorton! He provided that spark we needed tonight. Singler with a Double Double, and an off night for Smith which still isn't bad. We will have off nights like this, especially during ACC play. Good fought game and great win.

OK, now the bad. I'm sorry folks, and if I offends anyone here I apologize but the Plumlees are not developing. They are NO threat in the paint, refuse to use both hands to rebound, and continue to shoot the 3. That is just nonsense for 6'10 and 6'11 guys to take those shots. No matter how many times I hear on this board and through the media that "Miles and Mason have that type of range", I will cringe every time they take that shot. There is a huge difference in taking those shots in practice and taking them in ACC play and I think in game both should be concerned about spacing on the floor, and rebounding and kicking the ball out. In fact I would even throw Kelly in that mix, although He has made a couple from behind the arc. Just my 0.02$...

All in all I think this was a great test for us and we will continue to improve and we will all grow with this team together. How sweet it will be.

One thing before I go to sleep, is anyone else concerned about our offensive rebounds? It seems we just couldn't pull them down. I credit Maryland for their defense tonight, simply stellar.

[timmy c]

It wasn't just the four steals. Thornton did a lot of little things. He drew a charge on Jordan Williams. He frustrated a bunch of Maryland players into coughing it up to another Duke player. He stabilized the offense. I'm sure his plus minus is like +50.

Looks like Thorton had a +9 during his twelve minutes. That makes his +/- for 40 minutes a gaudy +30. He was fantastic at disrupting MD's offense and he was steady with the ball in his hand in the offense. Won't show up in the box score but his intangibles were game changing.

[loran16]

I'm going to write two brief recaps for this game. See if you can notice the difference:

For Duke

A well fought victory. Nolan was clearly pushing it at times, resulting in a bunch of bad shots and turnovers, but well, we had a lot of bad luck. Ryan Kelly in particular, who's been great most of the year, found himself unable to bury a 3. Kelly was once a 3 point champion, and through the first month was shooting 50%. Not so much anymore. If Kelly hits 2 of those, this game is far different.

Fortunately, Seth Curry stepped up big on offense, while Tyler Thornton stepped up big on defense. I'm not a lover of Thornton, but he was HUGE here.

And then Kyle FINALLY started hitting some shots.

Of course, the team's play against Jordan Williams marks the 2nd time in a row when faced with a real good big man that Duke has struggled. Both Plumlees need to learn you CANNOT try to help others on D if you're facing a dominant big man....it's just a bad idea. And really, STRONGER REBOUNDING.

All in all they pulled through.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
FOR A TEAM THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE #1 TEAM IN THE NATION

Ummm, what was that? You faced a team ranked #4 on Defense to be sure, but you had the #2 offense in the country. And yet, Duke managed just .922 points per possession in a game played at 77 possessions. That is terrible for any team (NCAA Average is 1 point per possession), but for Duke that's simply unacceptable.

Taking a look at the Four Factors of Playing:
Effective Field Goal %: Duke 45.2%, Maryland 41.7%
Offensive Rebound %: Duke 29.7%, Maryland 37.5%
Turnover %: Duke 20.8%, Maryland 20.8%
Free Throw Rate: Duke 37.1%, Maryland 25.8%

So Duke shot better than Maryland, mostly thanks to 3 point shots, but was way down from their normal average of 57.9%. This is of course due to missing that many 3s, which will happen, but it's still disappointing.

Duke was clearly out-rebounded by maryland, but that's not amazingly surprising, that's the one factor Maryland had an edge at.

Meanwhile, Duke's turnover % was WAY HIGHER than normal (up from an average of 16.9%). Duke generally forces a turnover % of 24.1%, and Maryland isn't a great turnover-prevention team (19.8%) so Maryland won out here, despite equalizing.

And the free throws were basically even if you take out the garbage time free throws at the end.

What does this all mean? Well quite simply the point is this. If this team IS the Best team in the country....it doesn't have games like this one and against Miami at home. Because if it has such a game on the road, it loses. Fortunately, you don't need to be the best in the country until March. But with these performances, don't even think about going undefeated.

[Lord Ash]

Tough game!

I thought Miles looked pretty good tonight, to be frank, against a big, tough opponent. He actually got his hands on the ball a few times and held it in situations he normally struggles with, and played some tough D. He IS, however, the worst on the team at trying to fake out refs on who should get the ball on out-of-bounds plays... he literally grins afterwards. Come on, Miles.

Seth was huge this game... so silky smooth, and it is amazing that he has stepped into this role as "defender" as well as he has, considering defense was supposed to be a WEAKNESS of his early on.

Great game by Kyle, obviously. Tough as NAILS, great nose for the ball and great hands. Now that Jon is gone Kyle has the best nose for the ball on the team... and his range is ridiculous.

Mason continues to struggle. I thought Dre struggled a bit too... there is still a bit of something to Dre's attitude that I don't adore sometimes, when things don't go his way... he still feels like a hands-clapper/head-shaker/hands-thrown-in-the-air guy when things go wrong, and I feel like the best players, attitude-wise, usually don't do that. Might be a bit of youth.

We do feel a bit soft inside.

Ryan looked good as normal; very smart. Shame about those shots... he does have an UGLY ugly shot... it doesn't allow for much error. Do coaches actually work on rebuilding player shots anymore? I feel like at one time they did, but...

And how about Tyler? Tough, hard-nosed D, and some key moments (charge, steal.) So nice to see him get some minutes. Next up; Josh!

[camion]

He changed the complexion of the game by playing tough defense, taking a charge, stripped Jordan Williams on a rebound...

Thornton was huge in the second half.

Seconded.

Thornton and Curry changed the game when they entered in the second half. They brought energy and aggressiveness on defense that we had been missing. Plus Thorton was solid with the ball and Curry found his shot.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Maryland lured Duke into having the wrong players taking the shots. Ryan Kelly 0-4 on 3-pointers, Mason and Miles both missing jump shots, plus Nolan Smith was pressing himself the whole game. They disrupted our offensive flow.

I think Ryan Kelly has proven himself to be a potent threat when given an open look from three. I think teams will be unhappy if they pursue this strategy against Duke as the season wears on.

[wsb3]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

Thornton gave us some sorely needed energy at a crucial time in the game.

[Bob Green]

Not sure what it's going to take to bridge the massive gap between Plumlees/Kelly this year and Lance/Zoubs last year in terms of rebounding and inside defense.

The constant complaining about the Plumlees is amazing. This time last year the boards were overwhelmed with posts calling for Zoubek and Thomas to be benched. Now the guys are Saints. Seems to me a bit of revisionism is prevalent on this forum.

[SCMatt33]

I was only able to follow the game on line via espn. So its hard to know how it would seem live. But I was not impressed by the Free Throws. In a tight game, I think I counted that we missed 5 of the last 6. Not cool.

I think that was more about who was taking them. On any other night, Tyler isn't on the court in that scenario. Those were only his 9th and 10th free throws of the year. You also know that you're not going to get high percentages out of either Plumlee, but if he's taking them, that probably means there was a rebound or turnover and not an inbound after a bucket. Seth was one for two, which you'd like to see both, but the one made it a 2 possession game. I'd be more worried if it was Kyle, Nolan, or Dre missing them since those are the guys who you're going to get the ball to at the end.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

They are NO threat in the paint, refuse to use both hands to rebound, and continue to shoot the 3. That is just nonsense for 6'10 and 6'11 guys to take those shots.


They are no threat YET. It's a long season. Remember that the light didn't switch on for Zoubs until after this point last year. Give them some time. I mean we're fans, we can cut them a little slack.

Also, can we comment about how priceless the look on Tyler's face is in this photo (http://espn.go.com/ncb/photos?gameId=310090150&photoId=1053602#photo_1053740)?

[Billy Dat]

Didn't get the game here in NY, I thought they might be showing it on tape delayt but they just joined "in progress" after Islander hockey and I saw only the final 2 minutes.

But, with all the hand wringing about the Plumlees not measuring up to Z and Lance...I seem to remember that Miles was starting over Z at this time last year. We've got a lot of games to go, they'll find their way.

[Kedsy]

Irving or no Irving, this team's softness inside remains a concern. Jordan Williams is a good player, but it seems like any bruiser on the other team, regardless of height or talent level, gives this team problems.

I made the following comment in the pre-game thread, but the fact that opposing big men have big games against us doesn't mean we have "softness inside." Consider this partial list of big men's performances against Duke in the 2005-06 season:

Marco Killingsworth (Ind), 34/10
LeMarcus Aldridge (Tex), 21/6
Eric Williams (Wake), 17/8, 17/13, & 23/12
Cedric Simmons (NCSU), 28/9
Al Thornton (Fla St), 37/15 & 26/6
Tyler Hansbrough (UNC), 14/9 & 27/10
Craig Smith (BC), 19/10

Were we soft inside? Or was our defensive system designed in such a way that made us vulnerable to that sort of stat line from opposing bigs? I'd say the latter, because I seem to recall Shelden Williams winning the defensive national player of the year that season.


Not sure what it's going to take to bridge the massive gap between Plumlees/Kelly this year and Lance/Zoubs last year in terms of rebounding and inside defense.

I was a huge proponent of Lance and Z last season, even during the time that many posters were disparaging them the way they're disparaging the Plumlees now. But the fact is they were playing in a different defensive system, designed to allow them to sag inside and get rebounds. That was very unusual for Duke. This season we play a defensive scheme similar to the 29 years before, and that system makes it a lot more difficult both to rebound and to keep offensive-minded opposing bigs from scoring. It wins, though.

[Fuqua's Finest]

I see a lot of people down on the Plumlee's tonite. Obviously tonite wasn't their greatest of games, but you have to look at who's giving them the ball. On Maryland's side, the guards penetrate the lane to look for Jordan Williams for the easy layup. Meanwhile, on our side, our guard (Nolan Smith) penetrates to score and very rarely looks to pass to a usually wide open Plumlee. This is the phase in the game thats so greatly missed without Kyrie. Kyrie drives to pass first. Mason's numbers definitely benefited from this. No easy baskets for our bigs is a huge confidence downer. Overall, I will say that they both need to develop consistent post moves. Both of the Plumlee's rather fadeaway from the basket as opposed to going to the basket. I'll take the 14 rebounds a game any day though.

[jv001]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

Both played important roles in a game that we probably lose without their efforts. Seth scored 12 points in a hard fought game and we really needed those to pull out the win. Tyler played excellent on the ball defense and got a big charge call on Williams(a beast). Andre had his worse game defensively and we really needed someone to step up and defend on the perimeter. Go Duke!

[DukeBlueHeart4]

They are no threat YET. It's a long season. Remember that the light didn't switch on for Zoubs until after this point last year. Give them some time. I mean we're fans, we can cut them a little slack.

Also, can we comment about how priceless the look on Tyler's face is in this
photo (http://espn.go.com/ncb/photos?gameId=310090150&photoId=1053602#photo_1053740)?

haha LOVE IT! That is a face of a young man truly enjoying the game. lol

As for the Plumlees, they do have plenty of time left to straighten up. What I'm concerned with is the desire that I sometimes see to make the highlight reel. They need to get rid of that....then they will make it effortlessly.

[cptnflash]

I think Ryan Kelly has proven himself to be a potent threat when given an open look from three. I think teams will be unhappy if they pursue this strategy against Duke as the season wears on.

Agreed, Ryan was shooting 42% from 3 coming into this game, a better percentage than Nolan or Kyle (albeit with way fewer attempts). Part of his value is that he forces opposing bigs to come all the way out to the 3 point line. If he gets open looks from 3, he needs to take them. It's just an off night, he'll be fine and needs to continue to be ready to pull the trigger from out there.

[roywhite]

Really good performance by Duke down the stretch; made key plays on offense and defense.

Didn't like going 1-6 on FT's in the final couple minutes, but the margin was pretty decent by that time.

Good experience to have a close game like this, and pull it out in the second half.

[loran16]

The constant complaining about the Plumlees is amazing. This time last year the boards were overwhelmed with posts calling for Zoubek and Thomas to be benched. Now the guys are Saints. Seems to me a bit of revisionism is prevalent on this forum.

FTR, Zoubek wasn't getting calls for benching as he wasn't starting at this time of year last year. Just saying.

[chrisheery]

Just a few points:

1. I don't want to blame referees, its not a good practice, but they way the called the game was, while pretty consistent, in Maryland's advantage. They allowed hand-checking for perimeter players, limiting Nolan's effectiveness. He was being fouled far from the hoop limiting his ability to drive. These fouls are not as obvious on TV, but they are there and they do affect the way a team can play. On the other hand, they were calling it tight down low. Jordan Williams had at least 4 phantom and-1 calls I counted. I know stars get calls, but I think Nolan has earned that as well.

2. Kyle always seems to play his best when it matters most. He has been struggling this season, but when the game is most intense and we have the greatest chance of losing, Kyle turns into a stud. I love his heart. I wish teams would piss him off more.

3. Seth's shooting was huge. Just so happy for him. I'd rather see him and Dre shoot open shots off Nolan's drives than Nolan get fouled (and not have it called) and miss runners. The only thing Nolan did wrong was not realize that the refs weren't going to give him those calls and alter the way he was playing.

4. Tyler Thornton played huge. He was just great. I love him. He did everything no one else was doing. I think Josh could have contributed in this game too. I would have just assigned him (or a Plumlee) in a defensive scheme similar to a box and one. That guy follows Williams everywhere, fronts him everywhere, and boxes him out relentlessly. Just get under his skin and don't let him do what he likes.

5. I think the Plumlees did some things well and are just a couple good games in a row from the light coming on and staying on like it did for Zoubs. I hope it happens. We are going to need them. I do think the team could do more to help them, but they also need to make better decisions with the ball and not be in a hurry all the time.

Glad we won. Happier than if we lost. I think we will get better. Everyone wants to crush every team, especially a pesk like Maryland, but guys can't play great every night. Nice to know that even on off nights, our guys can beat a team that should be similar to what we would seen through the first 2 or 3 rounds of the NCAA tournament.

[jv001]

I made the following comment in the pre-game thread, but the fact that opposing big men have big games against us doesn't mean we have "softness inside." Consider this partial list of big men's performances against Duke in the 2005-06 season:

Marco Killingsworth (Ind), 34/10
LeMarcus Aldridge (Tex), 21/6
Eric Williams (Wake), 17/8, 17/13, & 23/12
Cedric Simmons (NCSU), 28/9
Al Thornton (Fla St), 37/15 & 26/6
Tyler Hansbrough (UNC), 14/9 & 27/10
Craig Smith (BC), 19/10

Were we soft inside? Or was our defensive system designed in such a way that made us vulnerable to that sort of stat line from opposing bigs? I'd say the latter, because I seem to recall Shelden Williams winning the defensive national player of the year that season.



I was a huge proponent of Lance and Z last season, even during the time that many posters were disparaging them the way they're disparaging the Plumlees now. But the fact is they were playing in a different defensive system, designed to allow them to sag inside and get rebounds. That was very unusual for Duke. This season we play a defensive scheme similar to the 29 years before, and that system makes it a lot more difficult both to rebound and to keep offensive-minded opposing bigs from scoring. It wins, though.

I'm not that worried about our big guys and the roles they are being asked to play this year. They rebound and play good defense. Getting double figures in scoring from the Plumlees is not going to happen. Mason seems to have poor shooting form and fades away from the basket from 2-5 feet in. Miles is the better shooter because he can hit the jump hook on occasion. Ryan's shot is just too flat to be consistent. We will be very good if our bigs play good defense and rebound. Go Duke!

[Kedsy]

OK, now the bad. I'm sorry folks, and if I offends anyone here I apologize but the Plumlees are not developing. They are NO threat in the paint, refuse to use both hands to rebound, and continue to shoot the 3. That is just nonsense for 6'10 and 6'11 guys to take those shots. No matter how many times I hear on this board and through the media that "Miles and Mason have that type of range", I will cringe every time they take that shot. There is a huge difference in taking those shots in practice and taking them in ACC play and I think in game both should be concerned about spacing on the floor, and rebounding and kicking the ball out.

Well, according to the box score, Mason and Miles combined for a grand total of zero three-point attempts against Maryland. Perhaps you didn't notice that while you were cringing, but I think your comment is unfounded.

Also, I'm not sure how many hands they used, but the Plumlees combined for 14 rebounds in 43 minutes, which is pretty good.

[Bob Green]

Part of his value is that he forces opposing bigs to come all the way out to the 3 point line.

Maryland's players didn't come out tonight! They backed off and allowed Kelly to shoot. The strategy worked as Kelly was 0-4 on 3-pointers and 1-5 overall.

[chrisheery]

FTR, Zoubek wasn't getting calls for benching as he wasn't starting at this time of year last year. Just saying.

Dude, no he wasn't. Miles started until the Maryland game, which was in February.

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&Q_SEASON=2009

[Kfanarmy]

You faced a team ranked #4 on Defense to be sure, but you had the #2 offense in the country. And yet, Duke managed just .922 points per possession in a game played at 77 possessions. That is terrible for any team (NCAA Average is 1 point per possession), but for Duke that's simply unacceptable.

So the #4 defense made the #2 offense look less than stellar...go figure. This is the 2nd game of the ACC for duke...and just a few games into a chang in PG. Yes they are terrible. You shouldn't watch anymore, especially if the standard is unacceptable to you.

[loran16]

Dude, no he wasn't. Miles started until the Maryland game, which was in February.

http://www.goduke.com/SportSelect.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&Q_SEASON=2009

Yes. I just said that.

[Bob Green]

FTR, Zoubek wasn't getting calls for benching as he wasn't starting at this time of year last year. Just saying.

Okay, technically you are correct, but you're nitpicking my post and overlooking the fact multiple posters were calling for Zoubek not to play at all this time last season.

The fact is Duke is a perimeter oriented team and posters on DBR consistently criticize our post players because they either cannot understand or refuse to accept the system Coach Krzyzewski employs.

[chrisheery]

Yes. I just said that.

Completely misread. My fault. All apologies. Please forgive me.

(So dumb, crawling in a corner)

[diveonthefloor]

Yeah, I know that the consensus on DBR is that Duke really laid an egg tonight for the most part.

My view is that Maryland is very, very good. Their defense was smothering. So many deflections, particularly in the first half.

Duke is a top ten team, but IMO they can't be considered "the best team" in the country at this point...certainly not without Kyrie and not without a low post presence (the latter the result of the former.)

We are good, and we play hard. We are certainly fun to watch.
I am enjoying the ride (and still would be enjoying it had the result been a loss rather than a win tonight.)

[WeepingThomasHill]

Sweaty and his one-man band hung tough all night. Jordan Williams is a rich man's Lonny Baxter, and I was envious of his ability to finish at the rim with either hand, catch everything and run the floor. Pe'Shon, Tucker, Mosley and Bowie looked like some guys tossing bricks at Card Gym.

Nolan jacked up a ton of bad shots, and was really forcing things for a stretch. He came up big during crunch time, and we have two legit "need a basket scorers" this year. Unfortuantely, Jon Scheyer is not walking through that door to be our relief pitcher at PG. TT and Curry did chip in, but we got nothing from Kelly (hoisting up 4 threes, 2 or 3 of which were poor shots) and little from the Plums. I am hoping that we can bring the Plums along to produce in March, and that Smiths 5-19 line is the last one like that for a while. We'll need something from the Plums to hoist Banner 5.

[chrisheery]

I'm confused. You think Maryland is a really good team. Duke won despite missing a ton of shots they usually hit. Duke has not lost. Yet, you don't think Duke can be called the best team in the country? What team can be called that then? I know they have weaknesses, but every team does. I think Duke has as much or more talent than anyone in the country, even without Kyrie. The inside guys can still improve. We never knew Zoubek would be as good as he was down the stretch this time last year. So, I think they can be called the best team in the country until someone proves them wrong.

[Saratoga2]

Agreed, Ryan was shooting 42% from 3 coming into this game, a better percentage than Nolan or Kyle (albeit with way fewer attempts). Part of his value is that he forces opposing bigs to come all the way out to the 3 point line. If he gets open looks from 3, he needs to take them. It's just an off night, he'll be fine and needs to continue to be ready to pull the trigger from out there.

I thought his shot looked ugly tonight and also in recent games. He may have won the 3 point shooting contest, but did he have the flat shot at that time?

[Dr. Tina]

I see a lot of people down on the Plumlee's tonite. Obviously tonite wasn't their greatest of games, but you have to look at who's giving them the ball. On Maryland's side, the guards penetrate the lane to look for Jordan Williams for the easy layup. Meanwhile, on our side, our guard (Nolan Smith) penetrates to score and very rarely looks to pass to a usually wide open Plumlee. This is the phase in the game thats so greatly missed without Kyrie. Kyrie drives to pass first. Mason's numbers definitely benefited from this. No easy baskets for our bigs is a huge confidence downer. Overall, I will say that they both need to develop consistent post moves. Both of the Plumlee's rather fadeaway from the basket as opposed to going to the basket. I'll take the 14 rebounds a game any day though.

Bolded because I totally agree with this statement. Nolan isn't really looking to dish a lot when he makes a drive. He has more of a scorer's mentality. Tonight, I thought he was pushing things a bit too much. I felt he was being swarmed by MD guys when he made a drive in the paint, and at times where he didn't have another teammate nearby to rebound or at least help defend one of the guys swarming. That led to some blocks and to's. The team wasn't always back on offense. He could have brought it back out to run something instead.

Also, I don't know if you saw it, but Luke Winn compared the assist distributions of Kyrie and Nolan...who Kyrie and Nolan dish to the most based on games played at that point. You can check it out here...

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/writers/luke_winn/12/09/power.rankings/index.html

[dukejim1]

Ask him to give Mason a call and explain some shortcuts to achieving post man efficiency. It would be disappointing for him to wait until midway his senior year to figure it out. It's like Zoubs lack of athleticism held him back while it is Mason's superior athleticism holding him back.

[jv001]

Yeah, I know that the consensus on DBR is that Duke really laid an egg tonight for the most part.

My view is that Maryland is very, very good. Their defense was smothering. So many deflections, particularly in the first half.

Duke is a top ten team, but IMO they can't be considered "the best team" in the country at this point...certainly not without Kyrie and not without a low post presence (the latter the result of the former.)

We are good, and we play hard. We are certainly fun to watch.
I am enjoying the ride (and still would be enjoying it had the result been a loss rather than a win tonight.)

If I'm not mistaken there were many posters saying the same thing last year. How did that end up? Go Duke!

[cptnflash]

Ask him to give Mason a call and explain some shortcuts to achieving post man efficiency. It would be disappointing for him to wait until midway his senior year to figure it out. It's like Zoubs lack of athleticism held him back while it is Mason's superior athleticism holding him back.

If you could put Brian's brain inside Mason's body, you'd have the best big man on earth.

[loran16]

So the #4 defense made the #2 offense look less than stellar...go figure. This is the 2nd game of the ACC for duke...and just a few games into a chang in PG. Yes they are terrible. You shouldn't watch anymore, especially if the standard is unacceptable to you.

Did I say terrible? Seriously, you missed my point.

Duke was supposed to score 1.05ppp against the MD Defense (as opposed to our average O of 1.23...a .18point drop, which is fairly large). Some of that included Kyrie, but if Kyrie was worth .13 points per possession, then Duke goes from being the #2 Offense to the #50 Offense without him. Don't you think we're better than that?

I am a Duke fan. I get frustrated because I am a Duke fan. That's why I watch. I'm not saying they're terrible. I'm saying performances like that are not what a #1 team in the Country should put up. Why is that so hard to understand, or so terrible to say?

Duke doesn't NEED to be the #1 team in the Country till the Tournament. But we all think they should be right now, right? And if that's the case, this is a disappointment.

[Kedsy]

I'm going to write two brief recaps for this game. See if you can notice the difference:

Yes, I could see the difference: the first was written by a Debbie Downer and the second by a nattering nabob of negativity.


And then Kyle FINALLY started hitting some shots.

Kyle missed a bunch of shots against UAB after the game was already a rout, and he missed several in the first half today. Is that what you're talking about, because otherwise I don't understand what you're saying here?

Coming into this game, Kyle was hitting 39.5% of his three-pointers for the season, 48.1% of his two-pointers, and 82.5% of his free throws. These numbers overall are better than his shooting last year, and for the most part have been most accurate when it mattered most.


Both Plumlees need to learn you CANNOT try to help others on D if you're facing a dominant big man....it's just a bad idea.

Do you think it's possible that they've been instructed to help in those situations and that's what they're supposed to do in Duke's defensive scheme? If not, I refer you to my post #45 (http://www.dukebasketballreport.com/forums/showthread.php?23793-MBB-Duke-71-Maryland-64-Post-Game-Thread&p=463064#post463064) on page three of this thread.


And really, STRONGER REBOUNDING.

The Plumlees combined for 14 rebounds in 43 minutes. How much stronger were you expecting?


What does this all mean? Well quite simply the point is this. If this team IS the Best team in the country....it doesn't have games like this one and against Miami at home. Because if it has such a game on the road, it loses. Fortunately, you don't need to be the best in the country until March. But with these performances, don't even think about going undefeated.

Yeah, our performance was significantly worse than Ohio State beating Minnesota by 3 at home today and Kansas going into OT against Michigan. Those teams are obviously head-and-shoulders above us after those scintillating performances.

[SCMatt33]

FOR A TEAM THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE #1 TEAM IN THE NATION

Ummm, what was that? You faced a team ranked #4 on Defense to be sure, but you had the #2 offense in the country. And yet, Duke managed just .922 points per possession in a game played at 77 possessions. That is terrible for any team (NCAA Average is 1 point per possession), but for Duke that's simply unacceptable.

Taking a look at the Four Factors of Playing:
Effective Field Goal %: Duke 45.2%, Maryland 41.7%
Offensive Rebound %: Duke 29.7%, Maryland 37.5%
Turnover %: Duke 20.8%, Maryland 20.8%
Free Throw Rate: Duke 37.1%, Maryland 25.8%

So Duke shot better than Maryland, mostly thanks to 3 point shots, but was way down from their normal average of 57.9%. This is of course due to missing that many 3s, which will happen, but it's still disappointing.

Duke was clearly out-rebounded by maryland, but that's not amazingly surprising, that's the one factor Maryland had an edge at.

I just wanted to correct the record on this, or at least see what I'm missing if I'm wrong. Going off of the official box score, it looks like Duke actually out-rebounded Maryland. Duke had 14 offensive rebounds on 41 opportunities for 35% while Maryland had 15 offensive boards on 45 opportunities for 33.3%. Considering that Jordan Williams is probably the worst match-up inside that Duke has on it's schedule, and Maryland as a team ranks 21st and 51st in OR% and DR%, I thought Duke did a great job on the boards today. Save last year when we played a different style, Duke has been a poor rebounding team over the last decade relative to other top ten type teams.

Also, the official box score gives me a slightly different turnover count with Maryland having a slight edge.

Overall, I thought that considering that Duke had its WORST shooting night of the year, and it's WORST game in terms of turnovers and was only mediocre from the foul line, getting a 7 point win is pretty darn good. This would be totally unacceptable as an average performance, but given that this (so far) is pretty much our bottom of the barrel worst, I'll take it and be pretty pleased about it.

[ncexnyc]

Okay, technically you are correct, but you're nitpicking my post and overlooking the fact multiple posters were calling for Zoubek not to play at all this time last season.

The fact is Duke is a perimeter oriented team and posters on DBR consistently criticize our post players because they either cannot understand or refuse to accept the system Coach Krzyzewski employs.
I'm pretty sure the vast majority posting complaints about the play of Miles and Mason are well aware of Coach K's system. What people are upset about is what appears to be a lack of either brother to consistently make what are viewed as chip shots. For the second game in a row Mason got the ball in close and decided to take a floating fadeaway, which left no one to contest the missed attempt. He also had a play where he decided to put the ball on the floor from the foul line and make a spin move to the hoop through several defenders, needless to say that play resulted in a turnover. He also got a nice rebound only to waste it by launching himself into Williams chest, which resulted in him being whistled for a foul. We then had the play from Miles, where he went for the highlight reel slam instead of the easy play. Something that brought K out of his seat and Gman discussed at length.

If they're there for just snagging boards then fine let them do that and kick it back out to reset the offensive. It is somewhat frustrating seeing people post concerns about our frontcourt and so many either pretending it isn't an issue for this team or for those to say game after game the light will come on eventually.

[jipops]

I'm going to write two brief recaps for this game. See if you can notice the difference:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
FOR A TEAM THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE THE #1 TEAM IN THE NATION

Ummm, what was that? You faced a team ranked #4 on Defense to be sure, but you had the #2 offense in the country. And yet, Duke managed just .922 points per possession in a game played at 77 possessions. That is terrible for any team (NCAA Average is 1 point per possession), but for Duke that's simply unacceptable.

Taking a look at the Four Factors of Playing:
Effective Field Goal %: Duke 45.2%, Maryland 41.7%
Offensive Rebound %: Duke 29.7%, Maryland 37.5%
Turnover %: Duke 20.8%, Maryland 20.8%
Free Throw Rate: Duke 37.1%, Maryland 25.8%

So Duke shot better than Maryland, mostly thanks to 3 point shots, but was way down from their normal average of 57.9%. This is of course due to missing that many 3s, which will happen, but it's still disappointing.

Duke was clearly out-rebounded by maryland, but that's not amazingly surprising, that's the one factor Maryland had an edge at.

Meanwhile, Duke's turnover % was WAY HIGHER than normal (up from an average of 16.9%). Duke generally forces a turnover % of 24.1%, and Maryland isn't a great turnover-prevention team (19.8%) so Maryland won out here, despite equalizing.

And the free throws were basically even if you take out the garbage time free throws at the end.

What does this all mean? Well quite simply the point is this. If this team IS the Best team in the country....it doesn't have games like this one and against Miami at home. Because if it has such a game on the road, it loses. Fortunately, you don't need to be the best in the country until March. But with these performances, don't even think about going undefeated.

K emphasized at the beginning of the season that if you expect perfection, you are going to be disappointed. We lost our pg so expecting perfection from here on out would be very foolish. Really nothing about this game, especially considering the opponent, should have been surprising.

The undefeated talk should have ended long before this game. But I am glad that most are finally able to see just how far-fetched that idea was.

[dukebluelemur]

The fact is Duke is a perimeter oriented team and posters on DBR consistently criticize our post players because they either cannot understand or refuse to accept the system Coach Krzyzewski employs.

No, I criticize them when, for example, Mason's man receives the ball with Mason on his back, in good defensive position, the only Duke player between him and the basket. Mason then proceeds to come all the way over/around his man to attempt a ridiculous reach-in. His man promptly turned the other way, took one step, and put the ball in the hoop. It was just horrible horrible defense. I can live with less than amazing offense if they at least show some sense on defense.

[loran16]

I just wanted to correct the record on this, or at least see what I'm missing if I'm wrong. Going off of the official box score, it looks like Duke actually out-rebounded Maryland. Duke had 14 offensive rebounds on 41 opportunities for 35% while Maryland had 15 offensive boards on 45 opportunities for 33.3%. Considering that Jordan Williams is probably the worst match-up inside that Duke has on it's schedule, and Maryland as a team ranks 21st and 51st in OR% and DR%, I thought Duke did a great job on the boards today. Save last year when we played a different style, Duke has been a poor rebounding team over the last decade relative to other top ten type teams.

Also, the official box score gives me a slightly different turnover count with Maryland having a slight edge.

I used the ESPN boxscore for my statistics immediately after the game, which may be inaccurate. Let's see.

Looking at the GoDuke box score (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205074684):
Maryland had 40 misses (26/66) and rebounded 15 of them for a 37.5%

Duke had 37 misses and 11 or 14 offensive rebounds for an OR% of either 29.7% or
37.8%.

The reason the OR% number changes is that ESPN doesn't include team-offensive boards, while goduke does...I'm never sure of what to do with those.

Not sure where you're getting your opportunities #s from though.

GoDuke has 1 "Team Turnover" for Duke but otherwise has equivalent amounts.

[Jim3k]

He also had a play where he decided to put the ball on the floor from the foul line and make a spin move to the hoop through several defenders, needless to say that play resulted in a turnover. He also got a nice rebound only to waste it by launching himself into Williams chest, which resulted in him being whistled for a foul.

I'm not entirely convinced the refs were correct on that play. "Launching himself into Williams' chest" could also be described as Williams over-acting on a brush play. On both that and one of Miles' fouls, the officials seemed to ignore principles of verticality.

I'm not really complaining about the refs here, only pointing out that the Ps were the victims of normal discretionary calls that could have gone the other way. No point in condemning either P for that. Part of the game.

[Waynne]

MD played well and we didn't, but a W is a W. The Terps' D and offensive execution was pretty good most of the game, and we struggled much of the game to get into an offensive rhythm, although our D was very good most of the time. May have been the toughest D we've faced so far this year.

The stats give some indication of our struggles. 10 assists and 16 TOs, which I suspect is the worst ratio we've had in a game in a long time. 29% on 3s, and 65% on FTs, including missing 5 out of the last 6. Important win for us because we showed we can beat a tough team despite not playing well overall, although Kyle, Tyler and Seth were outstanding.

[GODUKEGO]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

I had a perfect angle of Tyler Thornton's, IMO, play of the game. Terps were down by five. Williams got a rebound and was going up for a three foot put back when Tyler came in a took the ball right out of his hands. Maryland was on a roll at the time and it was beautiful. Have not seen the recorded game, so do not not how this play came across on TV. It was BIG!!!!

[JMarley50]

The constant complaining about the Plumlees is amazing. This time last year the boards were overwhelmed with posts calling for Zoubek and Thomas to be benched. Now the guys are Saints. Seems to me a bit of revisionism is prevalent on this forum.

Unfortunately I had not discovered DBR at this time last year so I can't really comment on what was said. But I do recall times last year that I wanted to see more Miles and Mason. That faded quickly when Zoubs and Lance started playing well.

The difference for me is simple. Last year I never questioned Zoubs and Lance's heart and desire, I questioned their ability. In the end they proved that heart and desire can make up for a lack of athleticism. They left it all on the floor every time out and flat out wanted it more than the next guy. That's why they are so revered. They weren't the most athletic guys in the world, just winners.

The Plumlees on the other hand do not give me the same vibe. They have all of the physical gifts that an athlete could ask for. They have height, jumping ability, strength, quickness, they are just all out pure athletes. But what do they do with it? I don't see the heart and desire that Lance and Zoubs displayed. They do not do the little things that matter most. I watched Mason pretend to set 4 screens in a row during one possession tonight. He did not touch the defender once. One trip Kyle had to push him into the right spot and tell him what they were doing. That is a problem. They don't go after boards with the tenacity that is required to play in the post at this level. Did you notice the rebound where I think it was Miles, Ryan, two Maryland guys and Tyler went up for the ball?? Tyler came out of the middle of them with the ball, and didn't even get credit for the board. A freshman PG showed more desire than 2 6'10" supposed future NBA players.

I hate being critical of the guys because in the end I love them all. But I am extremely disappointed in those two. As Duke fans, the one thing we usually don't have to question about our guys is their heart. If they should read this GREAT! Accept my challenge, show respect for the name that's across your chest and play your butt off every time you step on the floor. Bad games are acceptable, lack of effort is not.

Sorry for the rant, hopefully I don't offend anyone. Its just my $1.50 worth :cool:

[1999ballboy]

My thoughts:

-Nolan was wild early on. He made some really uncharacteristic turnovers that cost us dearly on a night when we weren't shooting well. He was much better in the second half.

-Kyle Singler may be the most irreplaceable player in the country.

-Thornton came up huge. Great move by K putting him in. His steals and the charge he drew ignited our 2nd half run. Also at least one of his two fouls was bull. Couldn't have asked for more from him, other than perhaps making his free throws.

-Though the Plumlees' offense wasn't there, it's their defense that has me more worried. Miles didn't do a very good job of sealing the baseline and often overcommitted, which led to many of Williams' points. So far we've faced two ACC teams with strong big men, and both have been able to exploit our weaker interior. That one block Miles had, though, was really nice, and the type of thing that they both should be able to do more often. The talent is definitely there.

-Why does Ryan Kelly never seem to play in the last 15 minutes of the game?

-K's offense/defense subbing at the end had me totally lost. Seth went in for defense once, and out for defense once. Personally I love Seth's D and want him on the court in any end-of-game defensive situation. He had his best game in a while.

-Does Greivis Vazquez have nothing better to do?

[detule]

I see a lot of people down on the Plumlee's tonite. Obviously tonite wasn't their greatest of games, but you have to look at who's giving them the ball. On Maryland's side, the guards penetrate the lane to look for Jordan Williams for the easy layup. Meanwhile, on our side, our guard (Nolan Smith) penetrates to score and very rarely looks to pass to a usually wide open Plumlee. This is the phase in the game thats so greatly missed without Kyrie. Kyrie drives to pass first.

Errr....that's the first time I have heard Kyrie described as a pass first point guard. Perhaps you've seen something I haven't.

Besides, I think most people are complaining about long range shooting, lack of back to the basket game, less then perfect finishing around the rim, fouling, one-arm rebounding, etc. These things won't be greatly improved by a pass first point guard.

For the record, I love the Plumlees and have no problem with their development.

[detule]

Bolded because I totally agree with this statement. Nolan isn't really looking to dish a lot when he makes a drive. He has more of a scorer's mentality. Tonight, I thought he was pushing things a bit too much. I felt he was being swarmed by MD guys when he made a drive in the paint, and at times where he didn't have another teammate nearby to rebound or at least help defend one of the guys swarming. That led to some blocks and to's. The team wasn't always back on offense. He could have brought it back out to run something instead.


Nolan is doing what is asked of him - we have repeatedly heard/read about coach K wanting to bring out the scorer in Nolan, even commenting on him needing to take more shots after his recent 9 assist game.

I love Nolan, for him playing somewhat out of position he is doing a great job IMO. I recall not that long ago him stepping in to play the point and doing a much poorer job.

[devildeac]

K went with ball handling and FT shooting in the last ~ 2 minutes with "Kyle and the shrimps" on O and Miles in for Seth or Andre on D, IIRC. We had less trouble with their press but the FT shooting didn't work out too well, missing 5/6 down the stretch.

[dukelifer]

Can we stop with this? To use this board as an example, this board infracts people for destructive negativity. That would be negativity without rational reasoning behind it....saying Lance Thomas sucks is an infraction, saying Lance Thomas is not performing well because he's not a good scorer isn't.

I am passionate about Duke Basketball. So are the few others who have complained. We enjoy when Duke wins. We especially enjoy winning the title. That doesn't mean we can't have concerns with close wins, and want to express them.

Duke did not play well tonight- and Maryland exploited Duke's weaknesses and defended well. But Duke has enough fire power to overcome bad nights like this against average teams. Having a player of Curry's ability coming off the bench to hit some big shots is a huge luxury most teams do not have. I been saying for several weeks that I think Thornton needs to play more- he brings intensity on defense and is not a liability on O. He reminds me a bit of Amaker as a freshman- very poised and solid. I also think he is a pass first player and while not super quick- he is very strong. Last year Zoubs had his coming out party against Maryland and he became an important part of the lineup thereafter- perhaps Tyler will see more time from here on out. I think he will help this team get a better flow on O while being a pest on D.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I watched Mason pretend to set 4 screens in a row during one possession tonight. He did not touch the defender once. One trip Kyle had to push him into the right spot and tell him what they were doing. That is a problem.

I agree some of the screens were poorly set - you gotta make contact - but it is also the responsibility of the ball handler to drive his man into the screen. We kept sweeping wide around the screens. It was poor execution all around.

[SCMatt33]

I used the ESPN boxscore for my statistics immediately after the game, which may be inaccurate. Let's see.

Looking at the GoDuke box score (http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205074684):
Maryland had 40 misses (26/66) and rebounded 15 of them for a 37.5%

Duke had 37 misses and 11 or 14 offensive rebounds for an OR% of either 29.7% or
37.8%.

The reason the OR% number changes is that ESPN doesn't include team-offensive boards, while goduke does...I'm never sure of what to do with those.

Not sure where you're getting your opportunities #s from though.

GoDuke has 1 "Team Turnover" for Duke but otherwise has equivalent amounts.

You only factored in field goals. That doesn't include rebounds off of free throws. I usually calculate rebounding percentage as Offensive Rebounds/(Off. Rebs + Opp. Def Rebs). I don't see any reason why team rebounds wouldn't count. Just because you couldn't credit a player (if Maryland had the ball but lost it out of bounds) doesn't mean Duke doesn't get credit.

[Greg_Newton]

Maryland lured Duke into having the wrong players taking the shots. Ryan Kelly 0-4 on 3-pointers, Mason and Miles both missing jump shots, plus Nolan Smith was pressing himself the whole game. They disrupted our offensive flow.

I don't think Ryan is the wrong guy to shoot threes, he's just in a terrible slump right now. After starting the season 8-15, he's now 0-10 in our last four games... you could tell he had zero confidence shooting his last one tonight. He's trying to guide it too much, which gives him that weird pause-hitch at the top of his release - he just needs to make some mental adjustments and start flicking it at the rim again.


I'm not entirely convinced the refs were correct on that play. "Launching himself into Williams' chest" could also be described as Williams over-acting on a brush play.

I thought that was a pretty strong play by Mason, just a better one by Williams. If the defender doesn't anticipate the contact, plant, and shift his weight to his heels to flop, that's not a charge. I'd much rather have Mason make that mistake than go too soft.



He IS, however, the worst on the team at trying to fake out refs on who should get the ball on out-of-bounds plays... he literally grins afterwards. Come on, Miles.

In his defense, the refs did blow that call and he was just laughing after the dismissed his protest. If we're thinking of the same one - late, when he fronted Williams and got a hand on an entry pass - it clearly hit Williams' hand after his. Oh well.

ETA: Miles also had a huge play when it was 61-56. He basically sealed off Jordan Williams all the way to the corner off of a screen and roll with Kyle, which left the lane wide open for Kyle's swooping drive. Kyle made a nice move, but that play was as much Miles as Kyle.

-------

Also, Seth is so close to being so good. I love that his sneaky Curry-sense is starting to emerge - that steal of the entry pass in the first half was just a work of art. But he seems to have a TON of trouble shooting even sort-of contested shots - he has such a low release point that it really seems to bother him if a defender is jumping out at him while he's shooting it. On the other hand, he's just incredible when he gets an open look. He just doesn't miss when he gets a clean look at the basket, no matter the distance.

Hopefully we can learn how to better utilize that very specialized weapon as the season goes on.

[Bob Green]

I don't think Ryan is the wrong guy to shoot threes...

We will have to agree to disagree here. When Kelly is on the court alongside Singler, Smith and Dawkins, he is absolutely the wrong guy to be shooting the three!

[loran16]

You only factored in field goals. That doesn't include rebounds off of free throws. I usually calculate rebounding percentage as Offensive Rebounds/(Off. Rebs + Opp. Def Rebs). I don't see any reason why team rebounds wouldn't count. Just because you couldn't credit a player (if Maryland had the ball but lost it out of bounds) doesn't mean Duke doesn't get credit.

You're probably right (like i said, Team Rebounds weren't counted in the original box score I used). Since I wasn't sure what FTs leave potential opportunities for Offensive boards, I didn't include FTs, but I suppose you could multiply by the factor you do for possessions? (.42 or .475)

[-bdbd]

My thoughts:

-Nolan was wild early on. He made some really uncharacteristic turnovers that cost us dearly on a night when we weren't shooting well. He was much better in the second half.

-Kyle Singler may be the most irreplaceable player in the country.

-Thornton came up huge. Great move by K putting him in. His steals and the charge he drew ignited our 2nd half run. Also at least one of his two fouls was bull. Couldn't have asked for more from him, other than perhaps making his free throws.

-Though the Plumlees' offense wasn't there, it's their defense that has me more worried. Miles didn't do a very good job of sealing the baseline and often overcommitted, which led to many of Williams' points. So far we've faced two ACC teams with strong big men, and both have been able to exploit our weaker interior. That one block Miles had, though, was really nice, and the type of thing that they both should be able to do more often. The talent is definitely there.

-Why does Ryan Kelly never seem to play in the last 15 minutes of the game?

-K's offense/defense subbing at the end had me totally lost. Seth went in for defense once, and out for defense once. Personally I love Seth's D and want him on the court in any end-of-game defensive situation. He had his best game in a while.

-Does Greivis Vazquez have nothing better to do?


GREAT GAME. VERY ENJOYABLE. MD WILL BE A NCAAT TEAM AND CLEARLY HAD A GOOD STRATEGY AND FOCUS TONIGHT. SO NO SHAME AT ALL IN BE CHALLENGED BY THEM IN THIS ONE. IF WE CAN GET PAST FSU AWAY NOW, THE SCHEDULE SETS UP WELL FOR A COUPLE OF WEEKS.

K said in his presser after the game that Gary had "an incredible gameplan for beating us" and used the example of how they'd obviously planned to stop Smith -- something about clogging the middle... Anyway, give credit where it is due -- making Smith do things he wasn't used to and causing t/o's was exactly what MD's strategy was built around. Nolan clearly clearly gets big props for fighting through it in the second half. But if any future opponents concentrate on stopping one of our stars, then the rest of the guys need to be ready to step up to their opportunity. It took a little while tonight, but certainly Tyler and Seth did just that.

I thought the Plumlees were certainly solid, but still there's room to keep improving. I thought Mason several times went for the sensational block as weak-side help, only to have his (unguarded) man get an easy put-back of the miss. May have even been a strategy -- see Mason coming over to help and just throw the ball up to the rim, knowing Duke's out of position to rebound... But generally our frontline did not-bad against one of the ACC's premier big men in Williams.

I agree that it seems odd that Ryan doesn't get many late minutes. May be ball-handling related, though his FT% has to be better than Mason's...

In the end I think Greivis has won the grudging respect of the Crazies. I see it as a sign of respect for GV to take time out from his pro career to travel back east to Durham. Take it as a sign of respect from him that he wanted to be here to see the game "in his house." HA!

[chrisheery]

We will have to agree to disagree here. When Kelly is on the court alongside Singler, Smith and Dawkins, he is absolutely the wrong guy to be shooting the three!

I'll fall on the side that thinks Ryan should keep shooting. I don't disagree with you often Bob, but I do here. To have a dynamic offense, each player has to space the floor and be a threat in the space the occupy. If Nolan is driving, three guys need to be ready to shoot on the perimeter. If Ryan is in with another big, he has to be able to shoot that shot. Further, he has been a good shooter his whole life. I am not sure why a few missed shots makes everyone doubt him so quickly. I know his shot looks a little funny right now (maybe always), but its worked for him to the tune of a top 30 recruit out of high school and winning the 3 point contest in the McDonalds All-American game. I think we should make it a priority to try to get his confidence up. His ability to hit that shot makes our offense really potent. Especially because I think he is our best position rebounder on the defensive end.

[SCMatt33]

You're probably right (like i said, Team Rebounds weren't counted in the original box score I used). Since I wasn't sure what FTs leave potential opportunities for Offensive boards, I didn't include FTs, but I suppose you could multiply by the factor you do for possessions? (.42 or .475)

The factor with FT's is .475, but I just checked KenPom and he calculates OR% by OR/(OR+DR) which I assume means opponents DR because it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Unfortunately, most advanced stats can't be calculated until the official box score is released as one or two rebounds or turnovers make a significant difference in the calculations.

[Bluedog]

Postgame quotes.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205074689

I thought this comment from K was particularly interesting/revealing:


even though we’ve won all of our games, eight of them we were probably the best team in the country. The last seven we’re trying to find out who we are as a team... It’s kind of a weird season like that because what we started out to do is now not what we’re doing, but because it’s cumulative you got 15 wins you don’t get knocked out of that perch as long as you keep winning but we know that we have a lot of improvement to go.”

Not that I want to only talk about Kyrie, but it's clear that Coach K sees this team in a COMPLETELY different light now then he did at the beginning of the season when we had Kyrie. Maybe we should too. Having said that, great win! And I'm excited to still be undefeated.

[fan345678]

What did Thornton do? I only was able to watch the last 5 minutes. Box score says 2 points, 2 missed FTs, 0 rebounds, 0 assist, 2 fouls in 12 minutes.

Were the 4 steals really that impressive?

Tyler came in when we were down 38-32, and from that moment until we were up 43-38, every single good thing that happened had #3 right at the center of it.

[ncexnyc]

I'll fall on the side that thinks Ryan should keep shooting. I don't disagree with you often Bob, but I do here. To have a dynamic offense, each player has to space the floor and be a threat in the space the occupy. If Nolan is driving, three guys need to be ready to shoot on the perimeter. If Ryan is in with another big, he has to be able to shoot that shot. Further, he has been a good shooter his whole life. I am not sure why a few missed shots makes everyone doubt him so quickly. I know his shot looks a little funny right now (maybe always), but its worked for him to the tune of a top 30 recruit out of high school and winning the 3 point contest in the McDonalds All-American game. I think we should make it a priority to try to get his confidence up. His ability to hit that shot makes our offense really potent. Especially because I think he is our best position rebounder on the defensive end.
I've always been an, "If it's in the flow of the offense" guy myself, so I think Ryan needs to keep shooting the 3 if it's there. Unfortunately, I think even he doubted himself tonight as after several misses he had another shot ready to launch, changed his mind and hesitated, which resulted in a 3 second violation. At least I believe it was Ryan, I'm somewhat OD'd on hoops this weekend.

[JMarley50]

Postgame quotes.

http://www.goduke.com/ViewArticle.dbml?SPSID=22726&SPID=1845&DB_OEM_ID=4200&ATCLID=205074689

I thought this comment from K was particularly interesting/revealing:



Not that I want to only talk about Kyrie, but it's clear that Coach K sees this team in a COMPLETELY different light now then he did at the beginning of the season when we had Kyrie. Maybe we should too. Having said that, great win! And I'm excited to still be undefeated.

I think some of that might be meant to send a message/challenge to the guys. I wouldn't put it beyond K to use a little reverse psychology to get the team motivated and moved to the next level.

[loran16]

The factor with FT's is .475, but I just checked KenPom and he calculates OR% by OR/(OR+DR) which I assume means opponents DR because it wouldn't make sense otherwise. Unfortunately, most advanced stats can't be calculated until the official box score is released as one or two rebounds or turnovers make a significant difference in the calculations.

I use .42 actually for possessions, because Pomeroy has stated that for college the factor changes from .475 (the pros) to .42. Anyhow, yep you're right here. The point of which is more or less moot, because I have less problem giving up boards (That's not our strength) as with the turnovers.

And yes, official box scores help greatly.

[Kedsy]

He made some really uncharacteristic turnovers that cost us dearly on a night when we weren't shooting well.

I'm not crazy about us committing turnovers either, but in what way did it cost us dearly?

[Oriole Way]

Nice lifts from Curry and Thornton in the second half, and some very clutch buckets by Singler when we really needed them throughout the entire game.

I know Kyrie being out is a big reason, but Mason Plumlee's regression has been staggering, especially after recalling how great he looked against Marquette early in the season. We will need Mason and Miles to really step it up before the tournament - post play against good competition is this team's only significant weakness. Still plenty of time, but I hope some progress is made.

[Kfanarmy]

Did I say terrible? Seriously, you missed my point.

Duke doesn't NEED to be the #1 team in the Country till the Tournament. But we all think they should be right now, right? And if that's the case, this is a disappointment.
I simply disagree. I don't think their performance was disappointing. The opposing coaches in-confernce know each other. Players compete on a much more even level. Maryland always, lately anyway, seems to play Duke tight...Williams has a national championship; he is a good coach. Give em their due. OSU won by three against #21 Minnesota at home while Kansas beat unranked Michigan by 7. Duke's performance is comparable.

[Freethrw33]

I thought his shot looked ugly tonight and also in recent games. He may have won the 3 point shooting contest, but did he have the flat shot at that time?

From looking at this old video of the McDonald's Three Point contest, it appears that Ryan's shot is currently quite a bit more flat and a bit more jerky than it was in high school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FerQjITEfzI

That being said, though I realize even little changes to a shot are difficult to make mid-season, adding some more arc is a relatively simple adjustment for players to make. I hope that Ryan makes this change, since I believe it will improve his % ...

I am of the mind set that if the defense is giving Ryan the 3, he should take the open three without hesitation. Key word is "open." Doing this will help to spread the defense and provide more lanes for others for driving to the hoop.

[davekay1971]

Curry stepped up and Thornton was HUGE tonight. Love to see our backcourt develop more depth and defensive prowess as the season goes on. Tonight was a struggle, and we looked bad at times, but the team fought through and played great in the clutch.

On Wednesday we step away from Cameron for our first away ACC game. Another chance to see the young guys on our team grow.

[Neals384]

-Thornton came up huge. Great move by K putting him in.


Yes, huge props to Coach K for putting Tyler in. How many of us were sitting there thinking "we should put Tyler in". Simply brilliant!



-K's offense/defense subbing at the end had me totally lost. Seth went in for defense once, and out for defense once. Personally I love Seth's D and want him on the court in any end-of-game defensive situation. He had his best game in a while.


You got it backwards. From 3:22 to 0:52 the sub pattern was Tyler and/or Miles for defense, Seth for offense.
3:22, MD Freethrows, Seth in for Tyler
3:10, Nolan freethrows, Tyler in for Seth
2:46 MD freethrows, Seth in for Tyler (but Williams rebounded his own FT miss, MD possession
1:58 Nolan layup, Duke timeout, Tyler in for Seth
1:25 Bucket & timeout by MD, Seth in for Miles
0:52 3 ptr by Kyle & timeout, Miles in for Seth

Inside a minute, the pattern changes, perhaps for Tyler's ball handling and free throws:
0:35 MD ball, Seth in for Tyler
0:25, Duke ball, Tyler in for Miles
0:23 MD ball, Miles in for Seth
0:07, Duke ball, Seth in for Miles

[1999ballboy]

I'm not crazy about us committing turnovers either, but in what way did it cost us dearly?
I don't know whether you mean to point out that we won the game and it was alright in the end, or if you're actually denying that they cost us at the time they occurred. The first half was not a good half for us, and turnovers played no small part in that. More turnovers equals less possessions and less shots for us, and more for them. So I guess my answer is "pretty much in the same way that they ever cost anybody."

[moonpie23]

for those of you who thought we were "terrible" last night.........did you notice how Kansas and OSU were "terrible" as well?

every team has games where individual AND collective effort breaks down......we beat a very good team that had a very good game of attacking us.....

the next game will look differently and so on......

[DoubleDuke Dad]

for those of you who thought we were "terrible" last night.........did you notice how Kansas and OSU were "terrible" as well?

every team has games where individual AND collective effort breaks down......we beat a very good team that had a very good game of attacking us.....

the next game will look differently and so on......

And Syracuse has a tough time with a weak Seton Hall team, barely beating they 61-56 on Saturday. In other words all of the top teams did not play very well over the weekend.

[gw67]

Last night’s game was much closer than I expected it to be. Both teams played tough defense as expected and there simply were no players on Maryland who could match up with Singler who played a terrific game. Coach K went small and Curry/Thornton played well off the bench to turn the tide for the Devils. The Terps lost for the 5th time and, like their previous 4 losses, they shot very poorly from behind the 3-point line (21%) and at the foul line (53%). In addition, the CIS effect was evident in the play of their starting backcourt. They shot 1-14 and several of the shots were either air balls or bricks. Williams continued to play at a high level but Maryland needs to find one or more complimentary scorers if they want to improve.

As a fan of both teams, I thought the game was well officiated. I’m looking forward to watching both teams wind their way through the ACC schedule. The Devils are clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the ACC teams and should win at least 15 games. I still believe that the Terps are the 2nd best team in the ACC but they need to prove it on the court.

gw67

[Indoor66]

It seems to me that the weekend results - across the spectrum - reflects the teams now getting into league play. The teams now play other teams with coaches who are familiar with styles, players, tendencies and abilities. It is natural that the scores will be closer.

MD has played us close, in most instances, for a long time. We will be playing quality teams with quality players for the rest of the year. Games will be close with the occasional romp. I don't see this as any statement or indictment of the team - just the reality of the schedule.

[77devil]

Did I say terrible? Seriously, you missed my point.

Duke was supposed to score 1.05ppp against the MD Defense (as opposed to our average O of 1.23...a .18point drop, which is fairly large). Some of that included Kyrie, but if Kyrie was worth .13 points per possession, then Duke goes from being the #2 Offense to the #50 Offense without him. Don't you think we're better than that?

I am a Duke fan. I get frustrated because I am a Duke fan. That's why I watch. I'm not saying they're terrible. I'm saying performances like that are not what a #1 team in the Country should put up. Why is that so hard to understand, or so terrible to say?

Duke doesn't NEED to be the #1 team in the Country till the Tournament. But we all think they should be right now, right? And if that's the case, this is a disappointment.

Glass half full? I can never consider a Duke win, especially against Maryland, a disappointment. We all presumably understand that Duke is not the same team without Kyrie. With a back court of Kyrie and Nolan, opponents cannot overplay one without the risk of the other going off in a variety of ways.

This is the ACC schedule where almost every game is a battle. Teams are pumped and crowds are inherently more hostile because it's Duke, not the least of which will be the rematch in College Park. I'm sure we are going to see more uneven performances by our guys so get ready for it. Our guys have to bring it every game, and there are going to be some off nights by Nolan and/or Kyle. Whether or not we are the best team in country right now couldn't be more irrelevant. It's all about March, and the coaching staff has many opportunities to work on the mistakes.

I'm still basking in the glow of being in Indianapolis, hoping that Kyrie will return, and enjoying the ride.

[GODUKEGO]

The constant complaining about the Plumlees is amazing. This time last year the boards were overwhelmed with posts calling for Zoubek and Thomas to be benched. Now the guys are Saints. Seems to me a bit of revisionism is prevalent on this forum.

Totally agree with your other post about Ryan Kelly taking three's. He took two shots last night during a crucial time in the game and shot two bricks. Coach K must agree with us because he came out and never came back into the game. We have an amundence of tremendous three point shooters and Ryan is not one of them.

But the Plumlees, I reading on the site of them having solid games versus Miami and Maryland. I must be watching from a different angle. I see two players with a combined 5-21 from the field versus our first two ACC opponents. Both in foul trouble. Both being totally taken to the hoop (Reggie Johnson 23 points 9-10 from the field and Jordan Williams 23 points and 10-17 from the field.) Both consistency out of postion defensively. Someone mention in an earlier post they have the green light to take 15-20 foot jump shots. To think they have the green light to shoot jump shots is ludicrus when their free throw % from 15 feet is 56% and 42%. I love to watch these two athletic players. But their offense range is five feet. If they can start playing defense on their player, rebound and stay with transition dunks, rebound follow up shots and their exciting alley-oop dunks, we will defend the National Championship. I am convinced that we won last year because of Z. He knew his range, played within his limitations, played incredible defense against the other teams big and became a tenacious rebounder.

[CDu]

What does this all mean? Well quite simply the point is this. If this team IS the Best team in the country....it doesn't have games like this one and against Miami at home. Because if it has such a game on the road, it loses. Fortunately, you don't need to be the best in the country until March. But with these performances, don't even think about going undefeated.

I'm amused at the timing of this comment, because it follows a game that happened on the same day that the following happened:

1. OSU sneaks past Minnesota (Pomeroy #54) at home;
2. Kansas needs overtime to beat Michigan (#61).

Compared to those games, our 7-point win over Pomeroy's #13 Maryland in a night where the shots weren't falling as well (though in fairness some of that is a credit to Maryland's defensive effort) is not so bad.

I think we can all agree that this team shouldn't be expected to go undefeated. Frankly, I'm not sure how many people have been thinking that way for the past month. But the best team in the country (which may or may not be us) can absolutely have a tough night against a rival who is apparently one of the best defensive teams in the country.

It wasn't a pretty win. But that's what can happen when the #3 defense faces the #5 defense. I don't know that we're the best team in the country right now. But I do think we're on the short list. And nothing that happened yesterday would lead me to believe that either OSU or Kansas are discernably better than us.

[obsesseddukefan]

Well, according to the box score, Mason and Miles combined for a grand total of zero three-point attempts against Maryland. Perhaps you didn't notice that while you were cringing, but I think your comment is unfounded.

Also, I'm not sure how many hands they used, but the Plumlees combined for 14 rebounds in 43 minutes, which is pretty good.

Maybe they were shooting long 2's then but it looked to me that they were three, again, maybe it was while I was cringing and had my eyes close everytime they shoot pat the 5 foot mark. The point I was trying to make was that they are no threat to score, inside or outside. If they cant get buckets right underneth the basket, what makes you so sure that they have the range from behind the arc? Sorry you think it is unfounded.

As far as rebounds, the only issue I have is not using to BOTH hands to rebound, and trying to make sportscenter everygame.

[superdave]

Totally agree with your other post about Ryan Kelly taking three's. He took two shots last night during a crucial time in the game and shot two bricks. Coach K must agree with us because he came out and never came back into the game. We have an amundence of tremendous three point shooters and Ryan is not one of them.

But the Plumlees, I reading on the site of them having solid games versus Miami and Maryland. I must be watching from a different angle. I see two players with a combined 5-21 from the field versus our first two ACC opponents. Both in foul trouble. Both being totally taken to the hoop (Reggie Johnson 23 points 9-10 from the field and Jordan Williams 23 points and 10-17 from the field.) Both consistency out of postion defensively. Someone mention in an earlier post they have the green light to take 15-20 foot jump shots. To think they have the green light to shoot jump shots is ludicrus when their free throw % from 15 feet is 56% and 42%. I love to watch these two athletic players. But their offense range is five feet. If they can start playing defense on their player, rebound and stay with transition dunks, rebound follow up shots and their exciting alley-oop dunks, we will defend the National Championship. I am convinced that we won last year because of Z. He knew his range, played within his limitations, played incredible defense against the other teams big and became a tenacious rebounder.

The Plumlees are both playing better defensively than at the beginning of the season. Their rebounding has been pretty good and the help side defense has improved steadily.

Offensviely, they both need to finish plays and sometimes just make the easy play. Both should keep shooting jumpers. If the defense is giving it to you, take it and improve at it! I seem to remember Lance knocking down elbow jumpers consistently last year even though these boards were whining about him even attempting the shot. Somtimes it's about taking what is being conceded to you.

Let's look for improvement in the big men, and the team, and keep in mind the team grows over the course of the season. Kyle and Nolan are the only proven commodities on this team, the others need playing time to grow.

[superdave]

I agree some of the screens were poorly set - you gotta make contact - but it is also the responsibility of the ball handler to drive his man into the screen. We kept sweeping wide around the screens. It was poor execution all around.

I noticed Mason's screens were not good last night too. He was rolling before the ball handler had a chance to use him. Easily correctable though.

I really enjoyed Thornton drawing the charge on Jordan Williams when he rolled to the basket without looking. Great play. We set him up well.

[wsb3]

Miles didn't have a slam. It didn't go in. He tried to make the highlight reel play instead of making sure he got the rebound.

I completely agree with your statement. I went a little bonkers on that play. Secure the rebound and if you don't have the easy bucket kick it out and let's reset and make Maryland play defense for another possession.

[Neals384]

Do you think it's possible that they've been instructed to help in those situations and that's what they're supposed to do in Duke's defensive scheme?



Yes, they need to help out when a teammate gets beat. For example, at 19:44 of the 2H, Bowie beat Dawkins along the baseline, Kelly stepped over to stop Bowie, who made a nice pass to Williams for a 3 point play. Didn’t work out, but Kelly made the right decision.

Three examples where (IMHO) our big needed to stay on Williams:

14:29 of the first half. Tucker drives on Kyle, has an edge but doesn’t have him beat. Mason leaves Williams to help out. Nice assist and easy layup.

7:31 of the first half. Palsson drives the lane, well guarded by Kelly, and puts up a runner. Mason has excellent position against Williams on the right baseline. Instead of boxing out and getting an easy rebound, Mason tries to block Palsson’s shot (which would have been goaltending). Williams gets an uncontested board and a dunk.

0:44 of the second half. Stoglin beats Thornton on a drive to the middle of the lane. Singler steps over to help out, but so does Miles. Easy pass to Williams for an uncontested dunk.

Williams had a nice game and a number of his scores were hard-earned. But these three were way too easy.

[diveonthefloor]

I'm confused. You think Maryland is a really good team. Duke won despite missing a ton of shots they usually hit. Duke has not lost. Yet, you don't think Duke can be called the best team in the country? .....I think they can be called the best team in the country until someone proves them wrong.



From Coach K's post game press conference:
On the win:
“It’s great a win for us, are you kidding me. We’re not this great basketball team, we’re a good basketball team that has to gain experience, gain maturity, learn, even though we’ve won all of our games, eight of them we were probably the best team in the country. The last seven we’re trying to find out who we are as a team. Again we’re not going to throw away those first eight, we’re not going to give those back. It’s kind of a weird season like that because what we started out to do is now not what we’re doing, but because it’s cumulative you got 15 wins you don’t get knocked out of that perch as long as you keep winning but we know that we have a lot of improvement to go.”

Coach K said it a lot better than me, but I agree with his sentiment entirely.

The season has become much, much more challenging since KI's injury; but that only heightens the drama. In a weird way, it's actually more fun this way. (I know, that sounds idiotic!)

[Neals384]

-Why does Ryan Kelly never seem to play in the last 15 minutes of the game?


Duke went to the 3 guard lineup starting at 17:23 of the second half with the score 32-38 MD, soon after 2 missed 3 pointers by Kelly. Thornton and Curry sparked the 14-2 run that turned the game around and we stayed “small” the rest of the game, with Miles and Mason alternating as the only “big”. Evidently coach felt that Ryan was not hitting his shots and was not a good choice on D as the only big against Williams.

[CDu]

Of course, the team's play against Jordan Williams marks the 2nd time in a row when faced with a real good big man that Duke has struggled. Both Plumlees need to learn you CANNOT try to help others on D if you're facing a dominant big man....it's just a bad idea. And really, STRONGER REBOUNDING.

Your suggestion runs counter to everything that Duke preaches with regard to help defense. If the perimeter defender gets beat, you have to stop the ball first. Make the ballhandler have a tough shot or make a pass (and then hope for rotation defense rather than have an uncontested layup. Sometimes that means easy layups or offensive rebounds for a good big man. You can't stop everything if the first line of defense gets beaten.


What does this all mean? Well quite simply the point is this. If this team IS the Best team in the country....it doesn't have games like this one and against Miami at home. Because if it has such a game on the road, it loses. Fortunately, you don't need to be the best in the country until March. But with these performances, don't even think about going undefeated.

As has been noted elsewhere, the #2 and #3 teams struggled even more than we did to get wins yesterday. Even really good teams have troubles in some games. This is especially true when you face a tough rival who has a chip on their shoulder about us (espcially after last year's game in Cameron).

[Kedsy]

I don't know whether you mean to point out that we won the game

Yes, that was my meaning. It may be semantics, but for something to "cost us dearly," I would expect that we'd have lost something, because otherwise there's no cost. I'm not saying they were a good thing, but all those early turnovers did was make things a little more difficult for us, and perhaps make the score closer than it should have been.

[CDu]

Coach K said it a lot better than me, but I agree with his sentiment entirely.

The season has become much, much more challenging since KI's injury; but that only heightens the drama. In a weird way, it's actually more fun this way. (I know, that sounds idiotic!)

Agreed. This team has 7 of the 9 players (8 of 10 with Irving) that are either in new roles or new to the team this year. That alone would mean that we shouldn't expect the road to be without bumps. Add to that the fact that we spent the first 2 months preparing one way (with Irving) and now we're working out the kinks of learning to play another way. So even more bumps should be expected.

It wasn't a pretty win by any means. And there are definitely things to work on. But it was a win against a rival when we didn't have our best day. And there were some good signs too (Singler, Thornton, Curry, e.g.). So I'm relieved and pleased.

[Wander]

Can we stop referring to the Plumlees as if they're one player? Miles has been playing fine. Mason has been completely lost ever since KI went out (and it's not just a lack of scoring).

[Kedsy]

If they cant get buckets right underneth the basket, what makes you so sure that they have the range from behind the arc?

Well, first of all, I'm not at all sure "they have the range from behind the arc," and I don't think Mason and Miles should be shooting threes for us during games. Your comment was unfounded because you were complaining about them taking threes and they didn't take any.

As far as your statement suggesting that the ability to score near the basket is in any way related to an ability to shoot from three-range, I give you Seth Curry, who is shooting 30.6% on his two-point shots and 44.9% on his threes.


EDIT: Incidentally, Mason is shooting 56.6% on his two-point shots and Miles is shooting 50.7%, so they're both shooting a pretty healthy percentage. Between them, the brothers have attempted exactly two (2) three-pointers this season, combined, so I'm not even sure why we're having this conversation.

[UrinalCake]

Thorton was huge - when he came into the game we were down 6, Mason had just picked up his fourth, and we seemed really stagnant. For a stretch it seemed like he was involved in every single play - first tipping a Maryland pass which led to a steal, then scoring a bucket, then drawing a charge on Stoglin. The charge he drew on Williams was an incredibly heady play - he anticipated the entry pass and decided to leave his man and just stand between Williams and the basket. The pass came to Williams, who immediately drove towards the basket and ran right into Thorton. And later he wrestled the ball away from Williams, despite the fact that he's giving up probably seven inches and 50 pounds to the guy.

Having Thorton in the game also allowed Nolan to play off the ball, which is his more natural position. Hopefully TT will develop enough offense to at least keep his man honest, because defensively he's a real playmaker and we'd like to get him in the game more.

I was fortunate enough to attend the game and the crowd was a real disappointment. The team really needed a lift towards the end of the first half and beginning of the second, but the crazies seemed content to sit and watch, and to stick to their scripted chants. When Duke made a big play they would react, but I wish they would initiate more energy. Crazy towel guy was imploring the students to make some noise. I even saw Kyrie Irving getting up and trying to get the crowd more involved. Seriously? We're better than that.

[Bluedog]

Top 5 plays:


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=shkLN6-iJFM

TT gets on the list at #4 and #2 and then Singler and Tyler chat after.

[CDu]

Can we stop referring to the Plumlees as if they're one player? Miles has been playing fine. Mason has been completely lost ever since KI went out (and it's not just a lack of scoring).

I would disagree somewhat with the last sentence, as Mason did just have 14 and 8 against UAB and 10 rebounds and 4 blocks against Miami. But his scoring game has certainly suffered since Irving went down.

[Duvall]

EDIT: Incidentally, Mason is shooting 56.6% on his two-point shots and Miles is shooting 50.7%, so they're both shooting a pretty healthy percentage. Between them, the brothers have attempted exactly two (2) three-pointers this season, combined, so I'm not even sure why we're having this conversation.

Especially since Miles still has the best career three-point shooting percentage in Duke history.

[sagegrouse]

Anyone else remember the article on how Nolan spent his summer? Serious PT with a trainer, followed by basketball drills with another trainer, and then followed by pickup games at the University of Maryland with the Maryland players. Aha, the plot thickens!

So, in addition to this being a program game for Maryland, given Duke's 41-point blowout last year, it was a game for "don't let our guy Nolan beat us." Reasonable strategy anyway, given that Nolan had been the dominant player in the two previous Duke victories. It worked pretty well for most of the game: collapsing on Nolan and then trying to tip or intercept his passes. And, of course, the Maryland players were intimately familiar with his game. Thank heavens for Kyle, who I believe will always come through when he is most needed, and for Seth and Tyler.

sagegrouse

[Kimist]

Thornton and Singler were HUGE tonight.

The Plumlees have looked lost since KI went down to an injury. We are going to need one of them to at least pose a threat down in the post or it could be trouble against a more talented squad deep in March.

After watching the Ala-Birm game on TV, I asked a friend who attended if the Plumlees really looked as disorganized on the court as they did on TV.

I attended the MD game last night - and now have an answer to my question.

Whatever the reason(s) may be, the two Plumlees frequently seem completely out of synch (defense and offense) especially since Kyrie is not around to get them the ball for those spectacular dunks.

I know it is still relatively early in the season, but unless some positive strides are made we have a glaring weakness, especially against stronger non-ACC teams that will be in our path post-season.

k

[TampaDuke]

-Why does Ryan Kelly never seem to play in the last 15 minutes of the game?


Kelly went out for good after he took and missed two 3s in a 30 second span early in the second half. He went out along with Dawkins, who had just missed one as well. I could be wrong, but I interpreted it as Coach K sending a message. We had just come out flat at the start of the half where we were lucky to be up 1 at the half. Maryland came out playing aggressive and immediately stretched the lead to their biggest of the night (6). Given all the missed 3s in the first half, it seemed evident that K wanted the offense to be more aggressive and drive the ball toward the hoop, with 3s only to come out of the flow of that plan (kickouts, etc.). Instead, Maryland lured us in to taking 3 ill-advised 3-pointers early in the shot clock that clanked off the rim. Coach K was visibly upset and pulled Kelly and Dawkins. Kelly sat the rest of the half. Dawkins sat for 6 minutes.

Personally, I thought Coach K bringing in Thornton at that time, along with Curry, was a stroke of genius. Not only did he want to ramp up the defensive intensity with Thornton, but at the same time he has added another ballhandler to assist with Maryland's press and also essentially forces the offense to be initiated by Kyle and Nolan, which I think is what he had in mind at the half instead of having Kelly force up invited 3s outside of the flow of play.


I'll fall on the side that thinks Ryan should keep shooting. I don't disagree with you often Bob, but I do here. To have a dynamic offense, each player has to space the floor and be a threat in the space the occupy.

I understand your point, but Kelly's points this year should really come from the flow of the play. If Nolan drives and kicks out to him for an open 3 on occasion, then he should take it. However, I doubt we want him initiating the offense by taking a 3 early in the shot clock, at least not with Kyle, Nolan, Dawkins or Curry as an option. I'd look for Kelly to assume that role next year or the year after, but not so much this year.

[Saratoga2]

Nolan is doing what is asked of him - we have repeatedly heard/read about coach K wanting to bring out the scorer in Nolan, even commenting on him needing to take more shots after his recent 9 assist game.

I love Nolan, for him playing somewhat out of position he is doing a great job IMO. I recall not that long ago him stepping in to play the point and doing a much poorer job.

I really think Thorton being in the game helped Nolan's offense. It is best when he doesn't have primary ball handling responsibility.

[TampaDuke]

One of the positives, IMO, to take from this game is that Coach K should have ample teaching material. One area I expect we'll see this with is with Nolan's adaptation to being the focus of a defense. He forced the issue too much in this game (perhaps believing the hype a little too much?). While that game plan has worked great to date, Maryland was obviously expecting it and bet everything on stopping him and hoping our staple fallback (the 3 pt shot) was falling less than on average.

Although Nolan needs to stay agressive, he need not always finish his drives. A few times he could have dished for easier shots without losing his aggressiveness and without resorting to simply "floating" around uninvolved for spells as he was prone to do a couple of years ago.

It took us awhile to adapt and get the ball to others who either had favorable matchups (Singler) or favorable shots from the run of play (Curry) for which Maryland had no answer. I imagine we'll adapt quicker to the "stop Nolan at all costs defense" that will no doubt be emulated by others on occasion in future games this year.

[sagegrouse]

One of the positives, IMO, to take from this game is that Coach K should have ample teaching material. One area I expect we'll see this with is with Nolan's adaptation to being the focus of a defense. .

The other benefit is that Duke will really be focused for the return match in a very few weeks. I expect Nolan and the plumlees to be at the top of their games.

sagegrouse

[diveonthefloor]

One of the positives, IMO, to take from this game is that Coach K should have ample teaching material. One area I expect we'll see this with is with Nolan's adaptation to being the focus of a defense.
...... I imagine we'll adapt quicker to the "stop Nolan at all costs defense" that will no doubt be emulated by others on occasion in future games this year.

This is 100% right on target.

And again makes it fun for folks like me (as a fan) because each game now brings new challenges and it's fascinating to watch a genius like K take the new circumstances, formulate his between game strategy, and teach it to the guys....NEXT GAME!

[Lar77]

Thorton was huge - when he came into the game we were down 6, Mason had just picked up his fourth, and we seemed really stagnant. For a stretch it seemed like he was involved in every single play - first tipping a Maryland pass which led to a steal, then scoring a bucket, then drawing a charge on Stoglin. The charge he drew on Williams was an incredibly heady play - he anticipated the entry pass and decided to leave his man and just stand between Williams and the basket. The pass came to Williams, who immediately drove towards the basket and ran right into Thorton. And later he wrestled the ball away from Williams, despite the fact that he's giving up probably seven inches and 50 pounds to the guy.

Having Thorton in the game also allowed Nolan to play off the ball, which is his more natural position. Hopefully TT will develop enough offense to at least keep his man honest, because defensively he's a real playmaker and we'd like to get him in the game more.

I was fortunate enough to attend the game and the crowd was a real disappointment. The team really needed a lift towards the end of the first half and beginning of the second, but the crazies seemed content to sit and watch, and to stick to their scripted chants. When Duke made a big play they would react, but I wish they would initiate more energy. Crazy towel guy was imploring the students to make some noise. I even saw Kyrie Irving getting up and trying to get the crowd more involved. Seriously? We're better than that.



Thought the crowd was a plus last night - do we win this game in College Park? One thing that our Cameron Crazies do that other teams don't (see Dean Dome) is keep the intensity when we are down. Ever notice that the "cheese and whine" are noticeably quiet when down by more than 5?

As many have said in this thread, the key to the game was the energy that Thornton brought in. Maryland brought their A game last night - I noticed Nolan was shooting his floater just a touch further out, due to their defense. But we found a way, and as usual, it was defense leading the offense.

We didn't win by 40 again. So what? It was a win against a team that for some time had our number. We were rushed and flat, and Maryland was taking it to us.

I thought Miles and Mason played better than many here are giving them credit for. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is. We still have a lot of improvement to go as a team.

FSU will be a test, although the few times I've seen them on TV were not impressive.

[Saratoga2]

From looking at this old video of the McDonald's Three Point contest, it appears that Ryan's shot is currently quite a bit more flat and a bit more jerky than it was in high school.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FerQjITEfzI

That being said, though I realize even little changes to a shot are difficult to make mid-season, adding some more arc is a relatively simple adjustment for players to make. I hope that Ryan makes this change, since I believe it will improve his % ...

I am of the mind set that if the defense is giving Ryan the 3, he should take the open three without hesitation. Key word is "open." Doing this will help to spread the defense and provide more lanes for others for driving to the hoop.

I am sured Ryan is working on understanding why his shot has been off lately. If he can correct the problem, he could be a big weapon at 6'10". He would definitely pull a defensive big away from the basket.

[Wander]

I thought Miles and Mason played better than many here are giving them credit for. Is there room for improvement? Of course there is.

Again, let's stop lumping the Plumlees together. Miles was fine. Mason didn't score at all, fouled out, turned the ball over a lot, made multiple defensive mistakes, and had no idea what do when he was left open on the perimeter.

[jv001]

I really think Thorton being in the game helped Nolan's offense. It is best when he doesn't have primary ball handling responsibility.

If I'm not mistaken, Nolan still handled the ball when Tyler came into the game. He just made better decisions later in the game. I'm going to watch the game again today and I'm going to look at that again but I think I'm correct. Tyler's impact on the game came from his very good defense and energy. Go Duke!

[ncexnyc]

I would disagree somewhat with the last sentence, as Mason did just have 14 and 8 against UAB and 10 rebounds and 4 blocks against Miami. But his scoring game has certainly suffered since Irving went down.

Stats are a funny thing. If you're trying to prove a point just pull some numbers together and there you go. Unfortunately stats don't often tell the true story. The Miami, UAB, and Maryland game while different in some areas had certain similarities.

In the Miami game we saw Reggie Johnson have a good game against our bigs, but he also sat with foul trouble during the 1st half. In the UAB game they realized they didn't have the bigs to compete with us on the offensive boards so for the most part they conceded these to us, a point that was made several times by the announcers of the game. Last night Williams gets off quickly, however he too gets into early foul trouble and has to sit for a large portion of the 1st half.

In two of the three games quality bigs hurt us, until they got into foul trouble, which results in them sitting for major stretches of the game. In the other a small team realizes the futility of challenging for rebounds and concedes offensive rebounds.
Therefore in all three instances one would expect that our bigs would get a positive boost of their stats.

In order to get a true assessment of what a player is doing you actually have to watch the whole game and factor in the many events of the game, not just rely on pure statistics. Case in point check Nolan's stats from last night. They don't look to bad, but without watching the actual game, you wouldn't know how difficult a game he had.

[superdave]

Maryland was guarding Nolan closely and for most of the first half was preventing him from getting to the basket cleanly and slapping at the ball when he tried to drive. Maybe a little too much one on one play trying to carry the team. He was havingtrouble with turnovers against this defense, as was the team in general. The good news is Singler was on tonight and they didn't really have a defensive answer for him..

I think we had at least 17 TOs tonight, so that wasn't good.


I thought Maryland played great d last night. They clearly had a game plan for Nolan and executed it well (which is a big part of the 17 TOs). He got into the lane but was challenged once he got there. I think the scouting on him going was that he'd try to score every time rather than drop a pass off for someone else.

I wonder what the adjustments for the 2nd MD game will be. I think Nolan dishing once he draws several defenders is the easy answer. But I wonder if we'll draw up some plays to take advantage of their defense collapsing.

We also struggled with our energy level and focus. Fortunately Coach K was able to generate some energy off the bench with Thornton and Curry. I suspect that Josh Hairston may provide a similar spark off the bench before long.

Super "Thank goodness for depth" Dave

[Kedsy]

Although Nolan needs to stay agressive, he need not always finish his drives. A few times he could have dished for easier shots without losing his aggressiveness and without resorting to simply "floating" around uninvolved for spells as he was prone to do a couple of years ago.

While I understand ncexnyc's point about stats not telling the whole story, I don't think the criticism of Nolan is warranted. He had 8 assists (and 7 boards -- almost a triple double and people are talking about how poorly he played), so he was dishing as well as shooting.


If Nolan drives and kicks out to him for an open 3 on occasion, then he should take it.

With regards to three-point opportunities, I think Ryan is more likely to be the beneficiary of a pick-and-pop, rather than a drive-and-dish. But I agree he shouldn't be taking out-of-flow threes near the beginning of the shot clock.

[weezie]

A bit off track here but one of the best moments in the game was K's explosion early 2nd half. He hauled those players in and paint-peeled their derrieres.
About five rows behind the bench, there were two cute little boys, maybe 8-9 yrs old sitting between responsible looking adults. The two little shavers plugged their ears, obviously at the direction of their parents, and had big old grins on their faces while their parents sat wanly smiling during K's invective lesson.
It was hilarious and also quite effective!

[Saratoga2]

If I'm not mistaken, Nolan still handled the ball when Tyler came into the game. He just made better decisions later in the game. I'm going to watch the game again today and I'm going to look at that again but I think I'm correct. Tyler's impact on the game came from his very good defense and energy. Go Duke!

I think Nolan handled the ball some of the time, while Tyler also handled it part of the time. When Nolan handles the ball, he tend to look for his own offense first, although late in the game he did make at least one nifty assist.

When the two of them are in with Curry, we have three ball handlers and Curry has the guile to score off of shot fakes and the like. His shot looks fairly easy to block so he has to get open looks to be effective.

[CDu]

Stats are a funny thing. If you're trying to prove a point just pull some numbers together and there you go. Unfortunately stats don't often tell the true story. The Miami, UAB, and Maryland game while different in some areas had certain similarities.

The statement that I said I somewhat disagreed with was wander's statement that Mason has looked "completely lost ever since Irving went out." I certainly agree that Mason has suffered since Irving went out. And I certainly agree that Mason has work to do. My only contention was that there have been times in which he has not looked completely lost in that interim.

There were certainly some bad points to Mason's performances in the Miami and UAB. However, there were some good points too. Rather than go through instance by instance, I merely referenced the stats (which indicate that he was doing SOME things right in that game). Hence, he wasn't completely lost.


In order to get a true assessment of what a player is doing you actually have to watch the whole game and factor in the many events of the game, not just rely on pure statistics. Case in point check Nolan's stats from last night. They don't look to bad, but without watching the actual game, you wouldn't know how difficult a game he had.

I watched all of the games mentioned, so I feel comfortable in my comments and use of the stats to support them in this case. Whenever I make statements based solely on the stats (having not seen the games), I try to make a point to caveat that I hadn't seen the games.

[Neals384]

Again, let's stop lumping the Plumlees together. Miles was fine. Mason didn't score at all, fouled out, turned the ball over a lot, made multiple defensive mistakes, and had no idea what do when he was left open on the perimeter.

I agree with this, but I'll just point out in Mason's defense, the 3 second call on him was bogus. He entered the lane, was in about two seconds, stepped out - both feet fully outside the paint - and then very quickly right back into the lane. The call came only 2 seconds after he re-entered the lane. The Ref must have missed him stepping out. I replayed it 4 times to be sure.

Neal

[obsesseddukefan]

I guess I should have specified in general about my distaste about the brothers and Kelly shooting the three instead of just about the Maryland game. I confused myself when in the heat of the moment and apologize. :confused:

And while I am no baller, I always think it is easier to get a bucket underneath than that of a long range low percentage shot like the three. Again just an opinion. I think it also has a lot to do with how many shots you take behind the arc or the two point shot. If I come in a game and shoot more threes then my percentage would be greater of that than if I took fewer two point shots. I may be wrong again, but I normaly see Curry shoot more threes than two point shots.

After looking at the at statsheet, you are right, I am just a confused about Curry as well, he has taken way more 2 point shots than three.

I guess in general I am not a fan of big men taking the 3, even Kelly. I just wish we could use our big men to impose our will and dominiate. Since I dont believe that has happend yet I am just a little concerned. Sorry all.



Well, first of all, I'm not at all sure "they have the range from behind the arc," and I don't think Mason and Miles should be shooting threes for us during games. Your comment was unfounded because you were complaining about them taking threes and they didn't take any.

As far as your statement suggesting that the ability to score near the basket is in any way related to an ability to shoot from three-range, I give you Seth Curry, who is shooting 30.6% on his two-point shots and 44.9% on his threes.


EDIT: Incidentally, Mason is shooting 56.6% on his two-point shots and Miles is shooting 50.7%, so they're both shooting a pretty healthy percentage. Between them, the brothers have attempted exactly two (2) three-pointers this season, combined, so I'm not even sure why we're having this conversation.

[dukelifer]

I was fortunate enough to attend the game and the crowd was a real disappointment. The team really needed a lift towards the end of the first half and beginning of the second, but the crazies seemed content to sit and watch, and to stick to their scripted chants. When Duke made a big play they would react, but I wish they would initiate more energy. Crazy towel guy was imploring the students to make some noise. I even saw Kyrie Irving getting up and trying to get the crowd more involved. Seriously? We're better than that.

It got very loud in there when Duke made their comeback. I thought the crowd was fine but they may not have been that creative- the problem with Maryland is that they lack anybody of note. Vasquez was very unique in bringing out the best in the crowd.

[mapei]

I replayed it 4 times to be sure.

Now that's hard core.

[ncexnyc]

While I understand ncexnyc's point about stats not telling the whole story, I don't think the criticism of Nolan is warranted. He had 8 assists (and 7 boards -- almost a triple double and people are talking about how poorly he played), so he was dishing as well as shooting.

My exact words were,"They don't look to bad, but without watching the actual game, you wouldn't know how difficult a game he had." Now it's true Nolan was close to a triple double, but we could stretch it to say he was close to a quadruple double, as he had five turnovers, along with two charges out of his three personal fouls.

If you want to say the this wasn't a, "Difficult" game for Nolan then that's fine, we will just have to disagree.

[trinity92]

Tyler and Seth, definitely were the spark that was needed to survive this one. Kyle carried the team on his back until they were able to help. Its nice knowing that when either Kyle or Nolan are having a bad night, the other always seems to pick up the slack. I hate to say it but I'm starting to lose hope as far as the Plumlees are concerned. They are great athletes, but until they start making better decisions, things aren't going to improve.

In the end I guess it was another hard fought win in conference play. I'll stop there before I'm accused of being a negative nellie again.

I am anything but a pollyanna when it comes to our team, but I'd take heart from our experience watching Zoubek and Thomas blossom last year. While they were seniors and had more time, the Plumlees are starting out so far ahead of Z&T and have shown us flashes already of what they might become. We knew we'd lose games this year, and this could have been one of them, but wasn't. We're not going to look good when we lose.

I think it may just have been bad timing that I watched teams like Texas, Conn & especially Pitt play this weekend and they look just like the types of teams we'll have a hard time with in the tourney. Then I watch us have a rough game. We need work, but we knew that. Take heart.

[Duvall]

My exact words were,"They don't look to bad, but without watching the actual game, you wouldn't know how difficult a game he had." Now it's true Nolan was close to a triple double, but we could stretch it to say he was close to a quadruple double, as he had five turnovers, along with two charges out of his three personal fouls.

That's an awful lot of stretching. "Along with" two charges?

[Kfanarmy]

...maybe it was while i was cringing and had my eyes close everytime they shoot pat the 5 foot mark...

quit cringing. :)

[obsesseddukefan]

quit cringing. :)

Even if I have to take a page out of Clockwork Orange and put the openers in my eyes! LOL ;)

[ncexnyc]

That's an awful lot of stretching. "Along with" two charges?

He was whistled for two charges, one in the first half and the other in the second half.

[Duvall]

He was whistled for two charges, one in the first half and the other in the second half.

Yes, I know. I'm just not sure why you seem to be counting those charges along with Smith's turnovers, given that player-control fouls are already counted as turnovers.

[superdave]

That's an awful lot of stretching. "Along with" two charges?

Did he have two charges? I remember the one.

This marks the 3rd game in a row where Nolan has drawn an offensive foul and raised his arm into the chest of the defender to brace himself. I dont like that trend...

[ncexnyc]

Yes, I know. I'm just not sure why you seem to be counting those charges along with Smith's turnovers, given that player-control fouls are already counted as turnovers.
See I said it was a stretch.;) Now it's time to head outside and do the snowman thing as work has been canceled.

[CDu]

And while I am no baller, I always think it is easier to get a bucket underneath than that of a long range low percentage shot like the three. Again just an opinion. I think it also has a lot to do with how many shots you take behind the arc or the two point shot. If I come in a game and shoot more threes then my percentage would be greater of that than if I took fewer two point shots. I may be wrong again, but I normaly see Curry shoot more threes than two point shots.

After looking at the at statsheet, you are right, I am just a confused about Curry as well, he has taken way more 2 point shots than three.

An uncontested 2-point shot is definitely a higher-probability shot than a 3-point shot. So if we could get those, obviously that would be better. However, most defenses are pretty good about not allowing uncontested 2-point shots if they can avoid it. It's easier to get a good look at a 3-point shot than it is to get a good look at a short 2-point shot. Also, at the high school and college level, the 3-point line is close enough and kids spend so much time learning to shoot the shot that open threes can be hit (by good shooters) at over a 40% clip. So the relative degree of difficulty on the 3-point shot is reduced. This is especially true for smaller players (who face a bigger size disadvantage when they try to take it inside).

It's also important to note that, even if the probability of making the 3 is lower than the probability of making the 2, the 3 may still be the "value" play. Because you get 1.5 more points for a made 3 than a made 2, you have to hit the 2 at a 50% greater percentage relative to making 3s. So for a team that shoots 40% from 3 (like us), you'd have to convert 60% of your 2s into 2 points (in some combination of made baskets and free throws) to make the 2 as valuable. Now, there's some variability here, as 2s are more likely to draw fouls (which have value independent of immediate points). But I'm also ignoring the potential to be fouled on a 3 so I allowed myself this wiggle room.


I guess in general I am not a fan of big men taking the 3, even Kelly. I just wish we could use our big men to impose our will and dominiate. Since I dont believe that has happend yet I am just a little concerned. Sorry all.

Big men taking the 3 has pros and cons. Bigs are more likely to be left open, which increases the probability of a make. So a good shooting big will benefit. Alternatively, if the defense does get out on the big, that usually means the opposing big is in an uncomfortable spot defending on the perimeter. On the downside, it usually means we have one less rebounder and a less talented shooter on the perimeter.

That being said, I don't think our bigs have taken many threes. The Plumlees have a combined 27 3s, 25 of those by Kelly. And prior to Kelly's rough night, he had hit 8-21 or 38%. So it's not like these guys are jacking up a bunch of perimeter shots.

It would be great if our bigs could just impose their will inside. Unfortunately, our bigs are still developing as offensive players, and their skill sets don't allow them to consistently impose their will inside. We've been trying to get them touches in the post throughout the season, but the results haven't been all that impressive for the most part (there are a few notable exceptions obviously).

[UrinalCake]

Early in the game, our approach to taking threes can set the tone. Maryland decided to leave Kelly wide open so his defender could help on Singler. If he had hit his first couple threes (or even some long twos) then his defender would have to adjust and get up and guard him, which would have left Singler more open. Even if Kelly were to then miss a couple shots, the defense would still have to respect his outside shot since he had proven he could make them. Kind of a psychological game I suppose... earlier in the season I recall another opposing coach basically saying they were willing to take their chances leaving Kelly open. So if he can gain some consistency with his shot, it will really make things easier for his teammates.

Villanova employed a similar defense against Elliot Williams in the tourney two years ago - basically left him wide open and dared him to shoot. Hitting those shots early can have a domino effect for the rest of the game.

[MChambers]

Early in the game, our approach to taking threes can set the tone. Maryland decided to leave Kelly wide open so his defender could help on Singler. If he had hit his first couple threes (or even some long twos) then his defender would have to adjust and get up and guard him, which would have left Singler more open. Even if Kelly were to then miss a couple shots, the defense would still have to respect his outside shot since he had proven he could make them. Kind of a psychological game I suppose... earlier in the season I recall another opposing coach basically saying they were willing to take their chances leaving Kelly open. So if he can gain some consistency with his shot, it will really make things easier for his teammates.

Villanova employed a similar defense against Elliot Williams in the tourney two years ago - basically left him wide open and dared him to shoot. Hitting those shots early can have a domino effect for the rest of the game.

As long as we are playing a big lineup, with two of Miles, Ryan, and Mason, if someone can't hit a shot outside of two feet, it's going to be harder to get good looks. Last year's team was able to compensate with lots (and lots and lots) of screens. It would be easier, however, if our bigs could hit some shots. Ryan's the most likely candidate for that.

I listened to the Maryland radio broadcast last night, and Chris Knocke was Terping a lot. At one point, he said that you could call a foul on every Duke ball screen. He's not a bad announcer, but he is infected with that malady common to most Maryland fans, complaining about the officiating, especially in Duke games.

[77devil]

While I understand ncexnyc's point about stats not telling the whole story, I don't think the criticism of Nolan is warranted. He had 8 assists (and 7 boards -- almost a triple double and people are talking about how poorly he played), so he was dishing as well as shooting.

Well, he did have a poor shooting night, 5-18 and 0 for 3 on the threes, albeit 8-8 from the line. His shot selection left something to be desired, particularly the 12-15 feet floaters. And he was a considerably more steady and effective PG in the 2nd half with 5 assists, 1 TO vs. 3 & 4 in the first. Nolan did what seniors do. He played through his struggles and turned in a solid effort contributing in many ways.

[SMO]

A lot of folks have pointed out Nolan's poor shooting last night and many have added that he did a number of other things well (rebounding, assists). Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but he also drew some key fouls leading to the 8/8 from the line. His and Tyler's ability to force some fouls on MD played a big role in the second half and are the types of things that do not show up in the box score.

[jimsumner]

A lot of folks have pointed out Nolan's poor shooting last night and many have added that he did a number of other things well (rebounding, assists). Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but he also drew some key fouls leading to the 8/8 from the line. His and Tyler's ability to force some fouls on MD played a big role in the second half and are the types of things that do not show up in the box score.

Actually, fouls do show up in the box score. :)

[DukieInBrasil]

A lot of folks have pointed out Nolan's poor shooting last night and many have added that he did a number of other things well (rebounding, assists). Not sure if anyone mentioned it, but he also drew some key fouls leading to the 8/8 from the line. His and Tyler's ability to force some fouls on MD played a big role in the second half and are the types of things that do not show up in the box score.
Shooting FTs like that is what let Nolan finish with a PPS of 1 (18pts on 18 shots), which is a decent measure of offensive output.

[CDu]

1. We missed a golden opportunity to put this game away early. Our defense was stifling for the first 15 minutes (allowing only 19 points). But we just couldn't capitalize on the other end. A combination of bad ballhandling (several times we were stripped), ill-advised long jumpers (Kelly took some rushed 3s and the Plumlees each took a long 2-pt jumper), and just some tough misses. We could have been up double-digits at the half.

2. The bigs had an up-and-down first half. The Plumlees each took an ill-advised long jumpers. Kelly forced a couple of 3s early in the shot clock. The lost Williams in transition a couple of times. And Mason went for a block that he had no chance at, and left Williams unboxed for an easy putback dunk. On the plus side, Kelly had a nice putback and drew a charge, Miles had a nice jump hook, and Mason made a couple of nice passes that set up buckets or fouls.

[77devil]

1. We missed a golden opportunity to put this game away early. Our defense was stifling for the first 15 minutes (allowing only 19 points). But we just couldn't capitalize on the other end. A combination of bad ballhandling (several times we were stripped), ill-advised long jumpers (Kelly took some rushed 3s and the Plumlees each took a long 2-pt jumper), and just some tough misses. We could have been up double-digits at the half.

Agree, I made the same observation on Snrubchat last night.


2. The bigs had an up-and-down first half.

Second half too-When Mason puts the ball on the floor from just inside the foul line and tries to drive to the hoop, you know trouble is soon to follow. I'm going to go out on a limb here and say I'm pretty sure Wojo doesn't work with Mason in practice on that move. And I'm pretty sure Coach K was nearly apoplectic when Miles tried the ill advised throw down dunk late in the game instead of simply rebounding the ball to reset the shot clock. The MPs have athletic gifts, but their basketball IQ needs plenty of development.

[devildeac]

1. We missed a golden opportunity to put this game away early. Our defense was stifling for the first 15 minutes (allowing only 19 points). But we just couldn't capitalize on the other end. A combination of bad ballhandling (several times we were stripped), ill-advised long jumpers (Kelly took some rushed 3s and the Plumlees each took a long 2-pt jumper), and just some tough misses. We could have been up double-digits at the half.

2. The bigs had an up-and-down first half. The Plumlees each took an ill-advised long jumpers. Kelly forced a couple of 3s early in the shot clock. The lost Williams in transition a couple of times. And Mason went for a block that he had no chance at, and left Williams unboxed for an easy putback dunk. On the plus side, Kelly had a nice putback and drew a charge, Miles had a nice jump hook, and Mason made a couple of nice passes that set up buckets or fouls.

Another way of analyzing it from entire game perspective is to think of the final margin if Kyle shoots 75%FT, Ryan 25%3PFG and Mason and TT both shoot 50%FT, we win by 13. (Of course, the same could apply for the turtles. If Stoglin shoots 33%3PFG and they shoot 12/17 FT, they would have had the W.)

[stillcrazie]

Anyone notice that the women beat Maryland earlier in the week by the same score as the men beat Maryland last night???

[yancem]

Well the good imho, Tyler Thorton! He provided that spark we needed tonight. Singler with a Double Double, and an off night for Smith which still isn't bad. We will have off nights like this, especially during ACC play. Good fought game and great win.

OK, now the bad. I'm sorry folks, and if I offends anyone here I apologize but the Plumlees are not developing. They are NO threat in the paint, refuse to use both hands to rebound, and continue to shoot the 3. That is just nonsense for 6'10 and 6'11 guys to take those shots. No matter how many times I hear on this board and through the media that "Miles and Mason have that type of range", I will cringe every time they take that shot. There is a huge difference in taking those shots in practice and taking them in ACC play and I think in game both should be concerned about spacing on the floor, and rebounding and kicking the ball out. In fact I would even throw Kelly in that mix, although He has made a couple from behind the arc. Just my 0.02$...

All in all I think this was a great test for us and we will continue to improve and we will all grow with this team together. How sweet it will be.

One thing before I go to sleep, is anyone else concerned about our offensive rebounds? It seems we just couldn't pull them down. I credit Maryland for their defense tonight, simply stellar.

Umm, neither of them took a 3 pt shot in the game, in fact Miles hasn't taken a single one this year and Mason has only taken 2! Look, I admit that neither of the Plemlees are setting the world on fire offensively but they are averaging 7.4 and 5.7 ppg compared to 5.6 and 4.8 ppg for Zoubek and Thomas last year. So I would say that they are doing ok scoring wise and since Mason has a 25 pt game and sever double digit outings, I don't think we should write them off just yet. Also, they are rebounding at 7.6 and 5.1 clips vs 7.7 and 4.9 for Zoubek and Thomas so they're holding their own there too.

Also remember that it wasn't until mid way through the acc schedule last year that Zoubek really came on so the Plumlees can still make marked improvements this year. I know that we all want them to be AA studs but there's only room for AA so many AA'a on one team and right now we have 2 (and could have a third if Irving comes back). Personally, I think Mason is very close to figuring things out offensively. He just needs to see the ball go through the net a few more times. My only real concern with either of the two is free throw shooting. If they ever get on a role offensively, teams are going to start fouling them alot.

[SMO]

Actually, fouls do show up in the box score. :)

Alright smarty:p They do, but as we all know they aren't attributed to the players who drew them.

They are attributed to the officials who always favor Duke.

[dukefan5656]

I second that. I couldn't get the game on TV. From the stat sheet Tyler looks okay but not amazing. What happened?

I live in Korea now, so I swore I would move home if it looked like I was going to miss an entire season. However, I have found a great alternative, with the exception of maybe 2 games, I have been able to watch the rest on Justin.tv or channelsurfing.com. Both have been a true blessing. Hope this helps.

[dukee94]

Umm, neither of them took a 3 pt shot in the game, in fact Miles hasn't taken a single one this year and Mason has only taken 2! Look, I admit that neither of the Plemlees are setting the world on fire offensively but they are averaging 7.4 and 5.7 ppg compared to 5.6 and 4.8 ppg for Zoubek and Thomas last year. So I would say that they are doing ok scoring wise and since Mason has a 25 pt game and sever double digit outings, I don't think we should write them off just yet. Also, they are rebounding at 7.6 and 5.1 clips vs 7.7 and 4.9 for Zoubek and Thomas so they're holding their own there too.

Also remember that it wasn't until mid way through the acc schedule last year that Zoubek really came on so the Plumlees can still make marked improvements this year. I know that we all want them to be AA studs but there's only room for AA so many AA'a on one team and right now we have 2 (and could have a third if Irving comes back). Personally, I think Mason is very close to figuring things out offensively. He just needs to see the ball go through the net a few more times. My only real concern with either of the two is free throw shooting. If they ever get on a role offensively, teams are going to start fouling them alot.

Watching the game a second time, the commentator, Tim Brando ("he's got what plants crave, electrolytes") actually calls out Mason shooting a 3 (which is clearly a 2-pointer). I think that is why so many people thought that Mason was shooting an ill-advised 3.

[Kedsy]

And while I am no baller, I always think it is easier to get a bucket underneath than that of a long range low percentage shot like the three.

As CDu said, it is a matter of your size and how contested the inside shot is. As a small player who plays a lot of ball, I can tell you that when a larger player contests my inside shot, it is a lot harder to make than an open look from outside.


I guess in general I am not a fan of big men taking the 3, even Kelly. I just wish we could use our big men to impose our will and dominiate. Since I dont believe that has happend yet I am just a little concerned. Sorry all.

No reason to apologize. A lot of people think our big men need to get more involved offensively. I don't happen to be among them, but it is a legitimate opinion.

[throatybeard]

MOTM = Singler's barber

Quoted for truth, historical accuracy, and catharsis of what my eyes have had to deal with low these many moons since 2007-08.

[Indoor66]

Another way of analyzing it from entire game perspective is to think of the final margin if Kyle shoots 75%FT, Ryan 25%3PFG and Mason and TT both shoot 50%FT, we win by 13. (Of course, the same could apply for the turtles. If Stoglin shoots 33%3PFG and they shoot 12/17 FT, they would have had the W.)

And if I had eaten more lettuce and fewer eggs and bacon my colesteral would be better.

[devildeac]

And if I had eaten more lettuce and fewer eggs and bacon my colesteral would be better.

Not to worry though. I have Lipitor/Crestor/Vytorin for that;). (and it's cholesterol;))

I was playing the same "what if" game that CDu had mentioned earlier about a double digit half-time lead and musing about how the game could have been different if 3-4 plays had other results.

[jimsumner]

Alright smarty:p They do, but as we all know they aren't attributed to the players who drew them.

They are attributed to the officials who always favor Duke.
Actually, that would be a useful stat to add. Anything to confuse Tim Brando.

And basketball could become more like baseball. "Jim Thome is batting .265 lifetime against left-handed relievers in the seventh inning on days with a full moon in which the NASDAQ ended with an even number."

[millerecu]

I was fortunate enough to be at the game on Sunday. I was there early enough to watch all of the warm ups (wife and I had the opportunity to get snuck into the grad section...sssshhhh). Anyway, after watching the warm ups I told my wife it was going to be a rough offensive night. The guys were just not making any shots during the warm ups......3's, jump shots, and lay ups. I usually get to attend about 3 games a year at Cameron and normally the guys are sinking shots from all over the court during warm ups since there is obviously no defense in their face.

Just an observation of the overall offensive game on Sunday.

[Rudy]

I'll fall on the side that thinks Ryan should keep shooting. I don't disagree with you often Bob, but I do here. To have a dynamic offense, each player has to space the floor and be a threat in the space the occupy. If Nolan is driving, three guys need to be ready to shoot on the perimeter. If Ryan is in with another big, he has to be able to shoot that shot. Further, he has been a good shooter his whole life. I am not sure why a few missed shots makes everyone doubt him so quickly. I know his shot looks a little funny right now (maybe always), but its worked for him to the tune of a top 30 recruit out of high school and winning the 3 point contest in the McDonalds All-American game. I think we should make it a priority to try to get his confidence up. His ability to hit that shot makes our offense really potent. Especially because I think he is our best position rebounder on the defensive end.
I like Ryan's development since last year, especially his bulk and his defense and his work around the basket. But his 3-pt shooting? Not so much. Whenever I see him put up another brick I think of the fan(s) here who tout his talent for that shot so much. His percentage from 3 (32%) is the worst on team for anyone who had taken more than two of them. Even Ol' Roy said about one of his players a couple of years ago that a player isn't really a good shooter unless he makes a lot of them in games.

I was encouraged by this game by the fact that our leading scorers were cold for much of it yet we found other guys who could pick up some slack (Curry, Dawkins). It's not a team with 2-3 scorers only.

[JohnGalt]

Actually, that would be a useful stat to add. Anything to confuse Tim Brando.

And basketball could become more like baseball. "Jim Thome is batting .265 lifetime against left-handed relievers in the seventh inning on days with a full moon in which the NASDAQ ended with an even number."

Haha! I love the random baseball stats, though.

"In the 3rd inning of games played on Tuesdays, he bats above .300, so expect a single to left."

(ok, I know, over the top)

[Billy Dat]

Last night’s game was much closer than I expected it to be. Both teams played tough defense as expected and there simply were no players on Maryland who could match up with Singler who played a terrific game. Coach K went small and Curry/Thornton played well off the bench to turn the tide for the Devils. The Terps lost for the 5th time and, like their previous 4 losses, they shot very poorly from behind the 3-point line (21%) and at the foul line (53%). In addition, the CIS effect was evident in the play of their starting backcourt. They shot 1-14 and several of the shots were either air balls or bricks. Williams continued to play at a high level but Maryland needs to find one or more complimentary scorers if they want to improve.

As a fan of both teams, I thought the game was well officiated. I’m looking forward to watching both teams wind their way through the ACC schedule. The Devils are clearly head and shoulders above the rest of the ACC teams and should win at least 15 games. I still believe that the Terps are the 2nd best team in the ACC but they need to prove it on the court.

gw67

gw67, or any other regular viewer of Maryland games, a Terp-fan acquaintance told me that Sunday was the best game the Terps have played all year, regardless of the loss. True? If so, perhaps another example of Duke bringing out everyone's A-game and it makes the win seem better than it appears.

It may have been in one of Featherston's recent DBR pieces where it was pointed out that with the ACC being down, the Duke game will be one of the few remaining chances for a bubble team to get a signature win, thus assuring that Duke will get everyone's A game.

[jv001]

I like Ryan's development since last year, especially his bulk and his defense and his work around the basket. But his 3-pt shooting? Not so much. Whenever I see him put up another brick I think of the fan(s) here who tout his talent for that shot so much. His percentage from 3 (32%) is the worst on team for anyone who had taken more than two of them. Even Ol' Roy said about one of his players a couple of years ago that a player isn't really a good shooter unless he makes a lot of them in games.

I was encouraged by this game by the fact that our leading scorers were cold for much of it yet we found other guys who could pick up some slack (Curry, Dawkins). It's not a team with 2-3 scorers only.

I commented the other day that Ryan's shot is really flat. After looking at Sunday's game again, I must say that he shoots the ball coming down rather than on the way up or at the top of his leap. I don't remember seeing either last year, but that could just be me getting old. GoDuke!

[Kedsy]

His percentage from 3 (32%) is the worst on team for anyone who had taken more than two of them.

Yeah, but before the game his 3-point percentage was 38%, which is pretty good, so maybe he should have taken them early in the game but not late? Although even then, I doubt either he or the staff was keeping a running total of his shooting percentage.

In fact, two weeks ago he was shooting 53% for the season from 3-point range. Using your logic we should have been clamoring for him to take a lot more shots from out there and it was not so long ago.

Seriously, I'm not thrilled about Ryan taking four three-point shots a game at this point in his career (although I suspect next year or by the latest the year after I'll be fine with it), but with as few long-range shots as he's attempted for the season, quoting his shooting percentage after an oh-for-four (as a reason why he shouldn't take outside shots) isn't really fair to Ryan.

[nocilla]

Personally, I don't have any problem with Ryan shooting 3s or Miles shooting jumpers if that is what the defense is giving them. Ryan had a bad game but is a good shooter. Miles has not shot many this year but I seem to remember him hitting several jumpshots toward the end of last year. Obviously he shouldn't force anything, but if he is wide open and the defense is giving him the shot then I think he needs to shoot it. All he has to do is hit one or two for his defender to stop cheating on Singler or whatever he is doing that left his man wide open.

[zack2014]

gw67, or any other regular viewer of Maryland games, a Terp-fan acquaintance told me that Sunday was the best game the Terps have played all year, regardless of the loss. True?

I have seen all but one of their games this year and I agree that Sunday's game was the best they have played all year.

[noyac]

I was at this game and have been searching for awhile to find out the meaning of the sign held up that read "AWKWARD" written on what looked like hands missing a thumb.
If anyone knows please PM me or reply.

[kmspeaks]

I was at this game and have been searching for awhile to find out the meaning of the sign held up that read "AWKWARD" written on what looked like hands missing a thumb.
If anyone knows please PM me or reply.

The missing thumbs part has me kind of confused but I'm guessing it is a reference to the phrase "awkward turtle". Google it or look on urban dictionary. I didn't want to link there because most things there are NSFW even though the definition itself is safe.

[94duke]

I was at this game and have been searching for awhile to find out the meaning of the sign held up that read "AWKWARD" written on what looked like hands missing a thumb.
If anyone knows please PM me or reply.

I think they held up the sign whenever MD missed a free throw.

[UrinalCake]

I have seen all but one of their games this year and I agree that Sunday's game was the best they have played all year.

Maybe so, but that is going to be true for every single one of our opponents.