2011 NFL Playoff thread

[davekay1971]

I didn't see a playoffs thread, so I figured let's get it going.

2 entertaining games yesterday. I was surprised to see the Seahawks beat the Saints. It's still a joke that the Seahawks got a home game, but that's the way the league has the playoff seeding structured, and it was on the Saints to go on the road and beat a weaker team. They didn't get it done. Hasselbeck was absolutely great.

Indianapolis played the Jets tough, but Sanchez was clutch on that last drive to get within easy field goal range. Kudos to the Jets for going into Indianapolis, and getting a hard fought win.

Watching the Chiefs right now for the first time this year. They look very good against Baltimore. Do I have to start taking the Chiefs seriously?

Curious to see who people see going to the Super Bowl. The way Brady and the Patriots have been playing, I have a hard time seeing anyone beating them in Foxboro. The NFC is wide open. I can see the Falcons, Bears, Packers, and Eagles all making it. basically everyone still standing except the Seahawks.

[Bob Green]

It's still a joke that the Seahawks got a home game, but that's the way the league has the playoff seeding structured,...

Well it may be a joke, but if things shake out a certain way - Green Bay and Seattle keep winning - the Seahawks will host the NFC Championship Game. Seahawks fever is raging in the greater Seattle area.

Green Bay over Philadelphia is the next required step. Seeing as my Dallas Cowboys didn't make the play-offs (at least Jerry Jones finally got off his butt and fired Wade Phillips) I'm officially jumping on the Seattle bandwagon.

Go SEAHAWKS!

[InSpades]

What do think of Indianapolis' timeout call late in the 4th quarter against the Jets?

Essentially the Jets had a 2nd and 8 on Indy's 32 yardline after a 2 yard run up the middle. There were 29 seconds left and the Jets had 1 timeout left. At this point the Jets have 3 options:
1. call a timeout now, setup a play, and spike the ball afterwards if the clock is running
2. hurry up and run a play now, saving the timeout to setup the field goal attempt
3. let the clock run down, call a timeout with almost no time left and kick the FG from here

Instead the Colts used their last timeout (much to the dismay of Peyton Manning on the sideline). This essentially let the Jets setup a play and keep their timeout. They used this much to their advantage, throwing an 18 yard pass to Edwards and taking the field goal from near 50 yards to a much more manageable 32 yarder.

I think the timeout call was egregiously bad. Caldwell claimed that the Jets were already in FG range and he wanted to make them snap the ball more for a potential turnover. However Folk is under 50% this year past 40 yards (and this would have been 49 or 50). Granted it's a dome stadium so great conditions, but I think giving them an extra timeout is pretty much unforgiveable. It's not like they were inside the 20 and the kick was a gimme. It was a 50 yarder! Seemed awful. Of course credit to the Jets for making the most of the timeout and getting a huge gain on the very next play.

I'm calling Packers over Eagles this afternoon. Which would mean the Bears get to host the Seahawks while the Falcons get the pleasure of hosting the Packers (some home advantage for the Falcons!).

[Bob Green]

I'm calling Packers over Eagles this afternoon.

As a Seahawks bandwagon jumper, I'm definitely pulling for the Packers. With DeSean Jackson being injured early, the Packers gain an advantage. I absolutely hate seeing players injured in sports so hopefully Jackson can return to the game.

[Bob Green]

Jackson is back in the game, which is a good thing; but, the Packers are up 21-10, which is a better thing!

Lots of football left to be played but it is starting to look like Seattle will be heading to Chicago next week.

[sagegrouse]

Unhappily, I have trouble hiding my dislike for announcers who make what I think are dumb statements. So, as usual, I screamed at the TV at the doofus analyst's complaint about the Eagles going for the TD on the 1-yard line, until -- as usual -- Ms. Sage asked me to stop.

He said, as these guys always do, "I disagree with this decision. The Eagles need two scores [they were down 11]. They should take the sure field goal now then they would only need one score [failing to mention, of course, the two-point conversion, but that is a minor gripe]." For goodness sakes, you idiot, you are on the one-yard line -- of course, you go for the TD!!! You can kick the field goal from anywhere inside the 35! It is much harder to score a TD from the 35 when time is running out.

Or, am I the only fan that thinks that way?

My other favorite announcer and coach logical idiosyncrasy applies to the generally high-scoring college game. Midway through the third quarter, a team scores and now trails by nine. The announcers call for the coach to go for two because of the need to narrow the point differential to seven points, or one score. Uh, guys. Guys? The point differential matters only if you assume the other team never scores again, which doesn't make any sense before the 4th Q, and maybe not until the last few minutes. Yeah, I know there is a printed piece of paper that's a decision map for the two-pointer, but it doesn't really apply except at the end of the game. Just do what's right for the team now.

sagegrouse

[davekay1971]

4 really good games this weekend. It was a pleasure to watch as much of them as I could manage. Packers at Falcons and Seahawks at Bears in the NFC next week. I can't call the Packers/Falcons game. Ryan will be tested by the Packers D, but the Falcons have had fun making people regret underestimating them all season. Obviously, from my earlier comments, I'm expecting Seattle to remain a sub-.500 team after next week, but the Seahawks will probably prove me wrong again.

Ravens at Steelers in the playoffs. I'm salivating already. Another game I have trouble calling, but the intensity level will be great. Jets at Patriots will be another intense game, but I'm going with Brady at home in January.

[hurleyfor3]

Ravens at Steelers in the playoffs. I'm salivating already.

Neither team has a real "bad loss" -- Baltimore @ Cincy was arguable, and the Steelers were never really in their game against New England.

Still, of the Steelers' four losses, the most winnable one was the first game against the Ravens. They didn't have Roethlisberger for that game, of course, and have since cut Jeff Reed. I have to believe the Steelers are going in pretty confident.

BTW, don't do a Google Image search on Jeff Reed at work. I'm thinking that after all that went on with Roethlisberger the Steelers were looking for an excuse to let him go.

[davekay1971]

Here's a thought: If Chicago wins on Sunday against Seattle, then a Green Bay win over Atlanta on Saturday means Chicago will host Green Bay for the NFC championship game.

Which means that on Saturday, Bears fans will be putting on their cheese heads and cheering for the Packers.

Bears fans cheering for the Packers?!

[Blue in the Face]

He said, as these guys always do, "I disagree with this decision. The Eagles need two scores [they were down 11]. They should take the sure field goal now then they would only need one score [failing to mention, of course, the two-point conversion, but that is a minor gripe]." For goodness sakes, you idiot, you are on the one-yard line -- of course, you go for the TD!!! You can kick the field goal from anywhere inside the 35! It is much harder to score a TD from the 35 when time is running out.

Idiotic announcing is hardly uncommon, but I was basically astonished at the sheer idiocy of that comment.

[hurleyfor3]

Bears fans cheering for the Packers?!

Sure, if it means an extra home game. And there are plenty of Packers fans in Chicago.

[DukeUsul]

Idiotic announcing is hardly uncommon, but I was basically astonished at the sheer idiocy of that comment.

Regardless of the game situation, going for it on 4th and 1 inside the ten yard line is often the better choice. I saw someone roll the odds and calculate expected values but don't have the article handy.

[DukeUsul]

Here it is.

http://www.sportsquant.com/fourth.pdf

[tommy]

Unhappily, I have trouble hiding my dislike for announcers who make what I think are dumb statements. So, as usual, I screamed at the TV at the doofus analyst's complaint about the Eagles going for the TD on the 1-yard line, until -- as usual -- Ms. Sage asked me to stop.

He said, as these guys always do, "I disagree with this decision. The Eagles need two scores [they were down 11]. They should take the sure field goal now then they would only need one score [failing to mention, of course, the two-point conversion, but that is a minor gripe]." For goodness sakes, you idiot, you are on the one-yard line -- of course, you go for the TD!!! You can kick the field goal from anywhere inside the 35! It is much harder to score a TD from the 35 when time is running out.

Or, am I the only fan that thinks that way?

My other favorite announcer and coach logical idiosyncrasy applies to the generally high-scoring college game. Midway through the third quarter, a team scores and now trails by nine. The announcers call for the coach to go for two because of the need to narrow the point differential to seven points, or one score. Uh, guys. Guys? The point differential matters only if you assume the other team never scores again, which doesn't make any sense before the 4th Q, and maybe not until the last few minutes. Yeah, I know there is a printed piece of paper that's a decision map for the two-pointer, but it doesn't really apply except at the end of the game. Just do what's right for the team now.

sagegrouse

The one that kills me, and it's kind of related to yours, is this: A team is down 10 or 11 points, it's getting late in the 4th quarter, and the trailing team has the ball. Timeouts are scarce. Obviously they need two scores. They're moving the ball, but it's slow, and time is tick, tick, ticking away. To me, once you get into reasonable field goal position in that situation, kick it. Even if it's not 4th down. You have to leave enough time on the clock after score #1 so that you can either play D or recover an onside kick and get the ball back with time enough to do something with it. Makes no sense to do everything in your power to jam it into the end zone, only to realize that it took so long that there's no time to play D and get the ball back, or no time with which to score if you are lucky enough to recover an onside kick.

These are professional kickers, highly accurate (usually). If you're down 10 or 11 and running short on time and timeouts, and you get to the 30 yard line or so, kick the field goal and give yourself a chance to get the ball back with an opportunity to tie or win the game. If you miss the kick, you lose, but you also lose if you spend almost the entire clock getting the first score.

[Chris4UNC]

So many were complaining about the seedings but look what happened. 3 of 4 home teams lost. Only the folks at work who saw my playoff pool sheet believe me but yes, I picked all the wild-card games correctly, including Seattle over the Saints. Of course they all think I am really crazy as I have all the road teams winning in the divisional games as well. Yes, that includes Seattle over Chicago. The upcoming games are all rematches in which teams split a season series or the games were very close. I have Seattle and Green Bay heading to the NFC title game while Baltimore and the Jets will battle for the AFC crown. Are you convinced that I am crazy yet? Baltimore wins the Super Bowl by defeating...........Seattle. How 'bout now?

[Chris4UNC]

Well it may be a joke, but if things shake out a certain way - Green Bay and Seattle keep winning - the Seahawks will host the NFC Championship Game. Seahawks fever is raging in the greater Seattle area.

Green Bay over Philadelphia is the next required step. Seeing as my Dallas Cowboys didn't make the play-offs (at least Jerry Jones finally got off his butt and fired Wade Phillips) I'm officially jumping on the Seattle bandwagon.

Go SEAHAWKS!

I have the Seahawks losing to Baltimore in the Super Bowl in my workplace playoff pool. They all laughed at me when they saw my sheet. Funny, since I picked all of last week's wild-card games correctly they are looking at me a bit differently this week.

[tommy]

So many were complaining about the seedings but look what happened. 3 of 4 home teams lost. Only the folks at work who saw my playoff pool sheet believe me but yes, I picked all the wild-card games correctly, including Seattle over the Saints. Of course they all think I am really crazy as I have all the road teams winning in the divisional games as well. Yes, that includes Seattle over Chicago. The upcoming games are all rematches in which teams split a season series or the games were very close. I have Seattle and Green Bay heading to the NFC title game while Baltimore and the Jets will battle for the AFC crown. Are you convinced that I am crazy yet? Baltimore wins the Super Bowl by defeating...........Seattle. How 'bout now?

Are you laying any folding money on those results?

[JasonEvans]

So many were complaining about the seedings but look what happened. 3 of 4 home teams lost. Only the folks at work who saw my playoff pool sheet believe me but yes, I picked all the wild-card games correctly, including Seattle over the Saints. Of course they all think I am really crazy as I have all the road teams winning in the divisional games as well. Yes, that includes Seattle over Chicago. The upcoming games are all rematches in which teams split a season series or the games were very close. I have Seattle and Green Bay heading to the NFC title game while Baltimore and the Jets will battle for the AFC crown. Are you convinced that I am crazy yet? Baltimore wins the Super Bowl by defeating...........Seattle. How 'bout now?

Other than the gutsy Seattle pick, the rest of the picks were not tough ones to make. Maybe Jets and Indy, but Indy wasn't exactly a world-beater this season and the Jets ability to put Revis on one of Indy's WRs would seem to be a big advantage for them against a banged up Indy receiving core.

We'll see how smart you are after this week's games. If Seattle is hosting Green Bay for the NFC title and the Jets beat the Pats, I am sure everyone here will give you some mad props as that was not an easy thing to pick.

--Jason "as a Falcon fan, I sure hope you are wrong!" Evans

[Bob Green]

--Jason "as a Falcon fan, I sure hope you are wrong!" Evans

Seeing as I've jumped on the Seahawks bandwagon, I sure hope Chris4*** is right! I'll willingly settle for just Seattle beating Chicago, but Seattle beating Chicago and Green Bay beating Atlanta would be super sweet.

[davekay1971]

Hmm, it's Thursday and I don't want to think about Duke basketball at the moment. So, let's go for some predictions for this weekend's playoff action. In the interest of full disclosure, despite being a big NFL and college football fan and watching plenty of the action, for some reason I absolutely suck at football predictions. That being said, here we go!

Seattle at Chicago: Chicago, but it'll be closer than I would have thought at the beginning of the playoffs. My rationale for Chicago winning: I have more faith in Chicago's defense than I do in Hasselbeck's ability to play insanely good two weeks in a row. My rationale for it being close: despite my previous sentence, I think Seattle's got the better quarterback in this game. Score: Bears 24, Seattle 20.

Green Bay at Atlanta: Green Bay. I just get the feeling that this is the post-season in which Aaron Rodgers launches into the top tier of quarterbacks. Not saying that GB is going to win the Super Bowl, but I think he plays great and earns a win in Atlanta with a memorable performance. GB's big problem, and the reason I should probably go with the home team, is that Atlanta has a good pass rush and GB doesn't have enough of a running game to negate that. But I'll go with my hunch that Rodgers plays in the zone for 3 hours in Atlanta. Score: Green Bay 34, Atlanta 17

Jets at Patriots: Too much trash talking by the Jets. Brady eats that stuff up. It won't be a blowout like it was last time the Jets were in Foxboro, but it'll be convincing. New England 35, Jets 24

Ravens at Steelers: 3 hours of watching some of the hardest hitting football you'll ever want to see. I want it snowing and nasty out there (since I'll be sitting in 74 degrees in my living room drinking a cold beer). This is a game where, if it were played in Baltimore, I'd pick the Ravens. But it's not. Steelers 21, Ravens 20, with that nasty Pittsburgh wind blowing the Ravens' last second 43 yard field goal attempt wide right.

Have fun ripping apart my picks. And if Seattle beats Chicago, I'll bow humbly to Chris, despite his poor choice in basketball allegiances. :)

[A-Tex Devil]

All this talk about Seattle and no mention of the greatest playoff run of all time by Marshawn Lynch? That was amazing. I still haven't seen anyone name a run that was more impressive and timely.

[JasonEvans]

All this talk about Seattle and no mention of the greatest playoff run of all time by Marshawn Lynch? That was amazing. I still haven't seen anyone name a run that was more impressive and timely.

Marcus Allen's Super Bowl run was pretty awesome, but I agree that this one was probably better. Still, the Super Bowl stage elevates Allen's run.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnR4AiUvlKs&feature=related

-Jason "Allen's speed hides how great a run that was" Evans

[A-Tex Devil]

Marcus Allen's Super Bowl run was pretty awesome, but I agree that this one was probably better. Still, the Super Bowl stage elevates Allen's run.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tnR4AiUvlKs&feature=related

-Jason "Allen's speed hides how great a run that was" Evans

I remember that Super Bowl well. I was so utterly convinced the Redskins were unstoppable that I bet my dad $5 that the Redskins would win. They didn't and he made me pay up. I was 8. I didn't learn my lesson, unfortunately, as Vegas can attest.

[Oriole Way]

Wow... Redding with a huge game changing play. That touchdown will be a difference-maker in this game.

Go Ravens!

[Bob Green]

Pittsburgh vs. Baltimore is living up to the pregame hype. This game is probably going down to the wire.

[Bob Green]

24 - 24 due to a good play by Baltimore's holder on a high snap on the field goal. I thought the holding penalty on the punt return was...[imagine what comes out of the north end of a south facing bull].

Hmmm...will this game head to overtime? And how many fans are aware of the new overtime rule in playoff games this year? Pure sudden death is no more.

[Acymetric]

Twice at the end of the game Baltimore went 3 down and dropped 8 into coverage on 3rd and long...twice they got burned. Both times (before the snap) I said it was the wrong call. They were getting pressure almost every play it seemed like...keep doing what works.

[Udaman]

I didn't have a horse in this race (as a Patriots fan, both teams are equally tough)....but this game between Pittsburgh and Baltimore had some horrific calls. If you had Baltimore + 3 1/2, you must be ready to give up gambling all together.

Baltimore down 24-21 get a punt and the guy returns it for a TD.....only they call holding by Baltimore. The replay was....questionable, to say the least.

So, then it's 3rd down and goal, and Flacco hits Boldin right in the chest inside the end zone.....and he flat out drops the ball. So they kick a field goal. Tie game.

Then Pittsburgh has 3rd and long....and the offensive lineman is clearly pushing his hands into a Baltimore defender's face (easy to see at full speed, and definitely on the replay). Big Ben completes it for first down.

Then 3rd and 19, and (as another poster said), Baltimore does a 3 man rush. Bad call....but even worse is for the defense to actually let someone behind them for the completion.

And....even worse was the actual completion. The dude trapped the ball against his helmet for 4 steps. Are you freaking kidding me?

Then, Pittsburgh has 2nd and goal, and the RB is stopped, and they call defensive holding on a linesman? As another poster said, on the replay the Pittsburgh offensive lineman basically collared a player and dragged him to the ground, and they called defensive holding where the play was not happening? TERRIBLE CALL. TERRIBLE.

So Pittsburgh gets 4 more downs, and needs 3 of them, when Mendenhall looks stopped in the backfield....put powers his way for a TD. Wow.

Baltimore gets the ball back at midfield, with a ton of time left, and Flacco overthrows a wide open Heap, then a bad throw, then a sack, and then hits TJ right in the chest for a first down and he drops the ball. Shockingly, on the last 3 passes, Pittsburgh blitzed, and yet Baltimore did not adjust to call a quick slant on any of them (instead running deep patterns). Terrible coaching there.

Baltimore should have won. They certainly should have covered. The refs were terrible.

[Bob Green]

I was hoping Green Bay would win, but they are dominating Atlanta at this point. Of course, there is a lot of football left to be played before this game is in the books.

35-14 for the Packers!

[Andre Buckner Fan]

Then, Pittsburgh has 2nd and goal, and the RB is stopped, and they call defensive holding on a linesman? As another poster said, on the replay the Pittsburgh offensive lineman basically collared a player and dragged him to the ground, and they called defensive holding where the play was not happening? TERRIBLE CALL. TERRIBLE.

So Pittsburgh gets 4 more downs, and needs 3 of them, when Mendenhall looks stopped in the backfield....put powers his way for a TD. Wow.

Baltimore gets the ball back at midfield, with a ton of time left, and Flacco overthrows a wide open Heap, then a bad throw, then a sack, and then hits TJ right in the chest for a first down and he drops the ball. Shockingly, on the last 3 passes, Pittsburgh blitzed, and yet Baltimore did not adjust to call a quick slant on any of them (instead running deep patterns). Terrible coaching there.

Baltimore should have won. They certainly should have covered. The refs were terrible.


I recommend you look back to the first half where the officiating was equally horrible and every call went against the Steelers. There were several questionable PI calls, then that strange fumble that everyone treated as a dead ball (including the refs) until the Ravens picked it up. They got away with murder on that play. Suggs ran at the legs of quarterback with no call. The Ravens got away with murder with the blatant holds their O-line used all game long.

I agree the refs were terrible, but they were terrible all game long against both teams. The first half had some of the most penalty yards in a playoff game, and the Ravens were up.

[tommy]

I'm pretty sure the TV execs are going heavy on the Ambien tonight. After the Packers drubbing of Atlanta, they 1000% need/want Chicago to beat Seattle. The difference in ratings between a classic, cold weather, history-tinged NFC Championship game between old rivals the Packers and (don't forget they're a huge TV market) Bears on the one hand, and a sub-.500, small market, no history or cache Seattle team hosting the NFC Championship against the tiny market Packers, would be very significant.

And should somehow Seattle win that game and advance to the Super Bowl --sub .500 in the regular season! -- then the TV guys'll be headed for the ledges.

Tee hee. That would be great, except the rest of us would have to endure Cheerleader Pete for two weeks. Ugh.

[davekay1971]

Hey, I actually did all right in my picks (Steelers close, Pack big with Rodgers in the zone)! Amazing, since I have no confidence in making NFL prognostications.

Rodgers is playing likea guy who can really carry his team to a championship. I write this keeping in mind that Big Ben has 2 rings, but, the way Rodgers is playing right now, he's the second best quarterback still playing (Brady being the obvious number 1). I wouldn't bet against GB winning at either Chicago or Seattle.

I'm trying to work up some rooting interest for the NFC game today. I guess I'll go with the underdog. Ugh, but that means cheering for Pete (I left all my baggage at USC) Carroll. In all likelihood, I'll be using the afternoon to get all the stuff done that I need to get done today, to be free for Jets-Patriots and then all my wives and I will sit down for the premier of Big Love.

[davekay1971]

Marcus Allen's Super Bowl run was pretty awesome, but I agree that this one was probably better. Still, the Super Bowl stage elevates Allen's run.

-Jason "Allen's speed hides how great a run that was" Evans

That whole Super Bowl was just agony for me, growing up in DC and being a huge Skins fan. The worst moment, though, wasn't that run. It was Theismann's pick six. Terrible throw.

For me, my favorite Super Bowl run was the year before: Riggo's classic romp around the end. But then, any Riggo highlight is fun...because it's Riggo.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_Hrv5TNb2Y

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Congrats to the JETS! Who woulda thunk it? Last time I rooted for them, Joe Willie Namath was the QB!

[SCMatt33]

Was anyone else surprised that the Jets didn't fall down at the one on their last TD. If the guy falls down, they have a 40-second play clock, then 3 more plays. With only one TO left for New England, they could have ended the game right there.

[moonpie23]

the jets walked the walk....lol @ the pats...

not much winning since the cheating stopped....

[YourLandlord]

the jets walked the walk....lol @ the pats...

not much winning since the cheating stopped....

Right, only the best record in the NFL this year.

[duke74]

Right, only the best record in the NFL this year.

Which gives them the honor of watching the rest of the playoffs from their livingrooms.

J E T S Jets Jets Jets

[Reisen]

I recommend you look back to the first half where the officiating was equally horrible and every call went against the Steelers. There were several questionable PI calls, then that strange fumble that everyone treated as a dead ball (including the refs) until the Ravens picked it up. They got away with murder on that play. Suggs ran at the legs of quarterback with no call. The Ravens got away with murder with the blatant holds their O-line used all game long.

I agree the refs were terrible, but they were terrible all game long against both teams. The first half had some of the most penalty yards in a playoff game, and the Ravens were up.

QFT. Udaman's (and Bob Green's) post made zero sense to me.

First, that holding call on the Baltimore kick return was about as clear a holding call as they come. That was such an obvious hold I caught it 100% in real time with zero doubt it would be called (turned to my wife and commented, "that's coming back"). Obvious, obvious call.

Second, most of your points, Udaman, had nothing to do with the refs. Is your point that Baltimore gave the game away with poor decisions, or luck for Pittsburgh (ie. the crazy head-catch)? Because, if so, I'll counter that the only reason Baltimore was in the position they were in was the complete reverse in the first half, only more so. That fumble that was ignored by everyone was no one's fault but the Steelers (the ref even threw the flag down to mark the spot of the fumble as a clue to the players).

Third, I don't remember the other two calls (I do remember the defensive holding call, but missed the replay, so never saw whether it was legit. I did hear the commentators saying it was.), but per Bucknerfan's post above, the Steelers got killed on both sketchy calls, and no-calls in the first half. Just as in the game at Baltimore (no penalty on the hit that concussed Heath Miller?, no hands to the face on Ben's broken nose?), the Ravens got away with absolute murder. The low hit on Ben should have been a personal foul, Hines getting a personal instead of offsetting, etc.

For most of the game the Steelers had nearly twice the fouls called against them as the Ravens. I don't remember what the final count was, but there was a ridiculous amount of penalty yards in that game. Basically, one thing, and one thing only, was responsible for the outcome of the game: the Ravens' offense playing horribly. Their defense kept them in it, as usual, but you're not going to win a road playoff game with your offense playing that horribly.

There are lots of games to blame the outcome on the refs, UCONN 2004 comes to mind. That Steelers-Ravens game was not one.

Me? I'm a Redskins fan.

[throatybeard]

I think I saw where only about 18% of NFL onside kicks are recovered by the kicking team. Frankly, I'm surprised it's that many. That has to be taken into account in any down-two-possessions calculus.

[Duvall]

So if quarterbacks are supposed to be judged by postseason success, as is often claimed, what are we to make of the fact that Tom Brady hasn't won a playoff game since 2008?

[bluebear]

So if quarterbacks are supposed to be judged by postseason success, as is often claimed, what are we to make of the fact that Tom Brady hasn't won a playoff game since 2008?

It's really not worth responding to this given it's just an inflammatory attempt to tick off pats fans but was there a better quarterback in the league this year? This was probably his best season in leading the team to a 14-2 record given the players that were around him.

[Udaman]

For the Ravens - Steelers....yes, I meant that many of the "bad calls" were made by the teams themselves. That said, I still think the defensive holding was an awful, awful call, especially considering the blatant offensive hold that happened at the same time.

As for the Patriots - Jets. THAT WAS THE WORST COACHING I HAVE EVER SEEN. The Patriots were down by 10, and did a drive in the 4th quarter that took over 7 minutes. They ran the ball 7 times on that drive. Many times the play clock wound down to under 5 seconds. It was awful. They were almost playing like they didn't want to be there (or had bet on the Jets).

I think Brady must have had the flu or something. I mean...he was just completely not himself. I'll give credit to the Jets defense, they basically started each down with 10 guys in the block, none of them moving around, so Brady couldn't tell if they were going to blitz or drop back into coverage. The Patriots never adjusted.

And the fake punt call was inanely stupid. Even if you make it....the odds are that you won't get any more points, or if you do, you'll get a FG. If you don't make it, odds are they get a field goal, or worse.

The Patriots just stunk it up. Plain and simple.

[moonpie23]

It's really not worth responding to this given it's just an inflammatory attempt to tick off pats fans but was there a better quarterback in the league this year? This was probably his best season in leading the team to a 14-2 record given the players that were around him.

pats fans SHOULD be ticked off...they let the trash-talking jets come into their house and embarrass them. brady's QB rating doesn't mean squat when the opposing team is doing back-flips on your field after the game.....

[sagegrouse]

The Patriots just stunk it up. Plain and simple.

Maybe I have been sleep-walking through the NFL season, but I was appalled by the number of drop passes over the weekend, in particular by the Ravens (cost them the game), Seahawks (didn't cost them the game), and Patriots (both Welker and Branch). What's going on?

It seemed like the problem with the Patriots is that the receivers couldn't get open. I thought Deion Branch was a big-time player, and I thought Welker was always able to get into a seam. I couldn't tell if Brady was having a bad day because he had to throw so many balls away when no one was open.

sagegrouse

[Duvall]

It's really not worth responding to this given it's just an inflammatory attempt to tick off pats fans but was there a better quarterback in the league this year? This was probably his best season in leading the team to a 14-2 record given the players that were around him.

Nah, just trying to take a cut at the idea that individual players should be judged primarily by team postseason performance.

[tommy]

Maybe I have been sleep-walking through the NFL season, but I was appalled by the number of drop passes over the weekend, in particular by the Ravens (cost them the game), Seahawks (didn't cost them the game), and Patriots (both Welker and Branch). What's going on?

It seemed like the problem with the Patriots is that the receivers couldn't get open. I thought Deion Branch was a big-time player, and I thought Welker was always able to get into a seam. I couldn't tell if Brady was having a bad day because he had to throw so many balls away when no one was open.

sagegrouse

I'm not much into coulda/woulda/shoulda's, but no one can tell me that Randy Moss, and the threat of Randy Moss, wouldn't have made a huge difference in this game. The Patriots had no deep threat, nobody to stretch the defense, and the Jets just played press -- and played it very well -- on the Patriots receivers, limiting the seams for Welker etc., and giving the rush time to get pressure on Brady. The Jets didn't have to worry at all about a long ball. Whole different story if you can go up top to a Randy Moss several times.

And the play calling on that 7 1/2 minute 4th quarter drive was terrible. You knew it as it was happening -- yes, they're gradually moving the ball down the field, but without any acknowledgment of the clock situation, and this is going to kill them. And it did.

[davekay1971]

I've only watched the Patriots 3 or 4 times this year, but Brady seemed to be under more pressure yesterday than in the other games I watched. He seemed to have very little time to let routes develop, and he had to move around a ton in the pocket to buy any time at all. I give the Jets D credit for that. From what I read, they felt like, when Brady tore them up in New England earlier this season, that they gave him way too much time, and they made a focus of getting pressure on him. From what I could see, it worked.

Now I have no idea who to root for in the AFC. As a rule, I cheer against all New York teams (for no good reason whatsoever, I freely admit), and I hold Rex Ryan's choice of father against him. But I'm not a Ben fan at all after his off-field behavior. I'll probably cheer for the Jets since I have no actual legitimate reason to dislike them...

[bluebear]

I'm not much into coulda/woulda/shoulda's, but no one can tell me that Randy Moss, and the threat of Randy Moss, wouldn't have made a huge difference in this game. The Patriots had no deep threat, nobody to stretch the defense, and the Jets just played press -- and played it very well -- on the Patriots receivers, limiting the seams for Welker etc., and giving the rush time to get pressure on Brady. The Jets didn't have to worry at all about a long ball. Whole different story if you can go up top to a Randy Moss several times.



I don't buy it and I 'm not sure they would have been in the game yesterday if Moss was still on the team. With him, they looked like a borderline playoff team and lost to the Jets..after he left, they beat the Colts, Ravens, Steelers, Jets, Packers, Bears...In many of those games, they put up huge numbers..The Jets just outplayed them yesterday in every aspect of the game..

[bluebear]

Nah, just trying to take a cut at the idea that individual players should be judged primarily by team postseason performance.

fair enough..I don't disagree..I think QBs in general get way too much credit and blame for wins and losses..

[throatybeard]

Jay Cutler vindicated (http://www.onionsportsnetwork.com/articles/jay-cutler-proves-naysayers-wrong-by-defeating-shi,18898/).

[JasonEvans]

Whoever called that timeout on 3rd and 3 with 1:15 left in the game should be fired. That was one of the worst timeouts in NFL history. They wasted a TO, they were going to get the first down on the running play, instead they got negative yards on the play they called after the timeout.

Really, really bad.

Still, I was rooting for Green Bay and am glad they won. They were easily the better team and will be a fine Super Bowl rep for the NFC.

-Jason "I've got Pitt in the AFC game-- better offense than the Jets" Evans

[Bluedog]

Whoever called that timeout on 3rd and 3 with 1:15 left in the game should be fired. That was one of the worst timeouts in NFL history. They wasted a TO, they were going to get the first down on the running play, instead they got negative yards on the play they called after the timeout.

Really, really bad.

Agree 100%. But I'd think that the person who called the TO was Lovie Smith. Who else could it have been? The OC? Certainly wasn't anybody on the field as they had already ran the play essentially. I was yelling at the TV when that happened (as I was cheering for the Bears). Idiotic. Packers deserved to win the game, though.

Also another play that struck me as idiotic and almost disastrous for the Packers was the showboating by the 380 pound defensive lineman after the interception before he scored a TD. Really? I understand you're excited but GET IN THE END ZONE before you celebrate. Luckily for him, he just made it before Hanie stripped the ball from his hands. This incessantly drives me nuts in football and seems to be a common occurrence. I'm fine with celebrating a ton after the TD, especially for a guy that had his first in his career, but make sure you secure the football and get the TD in the first place. Holding the ball out for the taking doesn't seem like a good idea.

Also seems like the Bears got called for a lot of pass interference that didn't help their cause and the intentional grounding call wasn't so kind as they almost always gives the benefit of the doubt to the QB. Although the Bears ended up getting the first down anyways so it didn't matter.

I'm cheering for the Jets, although I like the Steelers chances more.

[gus]

This incessantly drives me nuts in football and seems to be a common occurrence. I'm fine with celebrating a ton after the TD, especially for a guy that had his first in his career, but make sure you secure the football and get the TD in the first place. Holding the ball out for the taking doesn't seem like a good idea.

my happiest moment in Superbowl XXVII:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NTeqQY_T2mE

[JasonEvans]

Wow, some NFL players are really ripping Cutler (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=6051718) for not coming back in the game last night.


Arizona's Darnell Dockett posted on his Twitter account, "If I'm on chicago team jay cutler has to wait till me and the team shower get dressed and leave before he comes in the locker room! #FACT."

Jaguars running back Maurice Jones-Drew added his thoughts, tweeting, "All I'm saying is that he can finish the game on a hurt knee... I played the whole season on one..."

--Jason "Cutler just did not look that hurt -- but knees are tricky" Evans

[Duvall]

Wow, some NFL players are really ripping Cutler (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=6051718) for not coming back in the game last night.


I had no idea there were so many orthopaedic specialists on NFL rosters. Maybe we should see if Dr. Dockett has an opinion on Kyrie's toe.

[BD80]

Wow, some NFL players are really ripping Cutler (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=6051718) for not coming back in the game last night.



--Jason "Cutler just did not look that hurt -- but knees are tricky" Evans

He could walk, he should have been in there trying rather than to let an inexperienced third stringer bear the hopes for the team getting to the Super Bowl. That is why you play the game, to get to the Super Bowl! What in the world was he saving himself for?

There are hundreds if not thousands of players and ex-players that would have gone back out and given everything they had until the leg fell off. I hope Cutler never sniffs a Super Bowl again - trade him to the Bungles for Palmer so he can be comfortable and safe each post-season for the rest of his career.

I will bet there is a partial tear in a ligament and there will debate about how bad etc. But the dude was standing and walking without crutches and had NO ice on it!

[JasonEvans]

The reports are (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-01-24/cutler-sustains-mcl-tear-in-his-left-knee) that Cutler has a torn MCL in his left knee.

While this is likely the truth, there was a zero percent chance this doctor's report would come back as anything but a significant injury. If the doctor had said anything short of a serious injury then Cutler would be done in Chicago. This had to be a big deal to save Cutler's future. A simple sprain would have been a disaster.

--Jason "I am somewhat surprised they are not recommending amputation ;) " Evans

[Duvall]

The reports are (http://www.sportingnews.com/nfl/story/2011-01-24/cutler-sustains-mcl-tear-in-his-left-knee) that Cutler has a torn MCL in his left knee.

While this is likely the truth, there was a zero percent chance this doctor's report would come back as anything but a significant injury. If the doctor had said anything short of a serious injury then Cutler would be done in Chicago. This had to be a big deal to save Cutler's future. A simple sprain would have been a disaster.


That makes no sense. Are you suggesting that the Bears would have also faked the surgery on Cutler's knee, and the subsequent rehab? What are you *talking* about?

[Duke: A Dynasty]

Well in case you have not been paying attention Cutler did not want to leave the game. It has already been stated (if I recall by Lovie Smith) that the team doctors would not allow Cutler to go back in.

[brevity]

I was shocked to see that the Wisconsin Badgers played a game (http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/recap?gameId=310230077) on Sunday. My thought process:

1. Why would they schedule a game on the day of the NFC Championship, with all the good fortune predicted back then for the Green Bay Packers? Stupid!

2. Wait, they played AT Northwestern? So they were IN Chicago the day of the NFC Championship? Genius!

So, well done, Big Ten schedule-maker. (Let's face it: you got lucky.)

[BD80]

Well in case you have not been paying attention Cutler did not want to leave the game. It has already been stated (if I recall by Lovie Smith) that the team doctors would not allow Cutler to go back in.

Nobody said it that clearly. It was more like "the doctors decided."

Of course it is a tear, a minor sprain is also a tear. How bad was the tear? For Cutler's sake they will round up to the more severe diagnosis.

Thing is, he could walk, he should have been in there trying.

I love the suggestion that he couldn't play because he couldn't plant to throw; one of the biggest criticisms of Cutler is that he REFUSES to plant his back foot to throw!

[JasonEvans]

That makes no sense. Are you suggesting that the Bears would have also faked the surgery on Cutler's knee, and the subsequent rehab? What are you *talking* about?

What I am saying is that there doctor was certain to give some bleak injury report in order to save Cutler's reputation. It is very possible that there is no exaggeration in this injury report -- I said I believe it to be true. My point was that the only way Cutler could remain a Bear was for this injury report to be severe.

Does that make more sense? I am not doubting this injury report, only saying that it is very convenient for the Bears and Cutler that this is a serious injury report.

--Jason "have they confirmed that Cutler will have surgery?" Evans

[Deslok]

He could walk, he should have been in there trying rather than to let an inexperienced third stringer bear the hopes for the team getting to the Super Bowl. That is why you play the game, to get to the Super Bowl! What in the world was he saving himself for?

There are hundreds if not thousands of players and ex-players that would have gone back out and given everything they had until the leg fell off. I hope Cutler never sniffs a Super Bowl again - trade him to the Bungles for Palmer so he can be comfortable and safe each post-season for the rest of his career.

I will bet there is a partial tear in a ligament and there will debate about how bad etc. But the dude was standing and walking without crutches and had NO ice on it!

For someone so willing to risk the life and limb of someone else to make themselves a bit happier, I would be more of the line of thought that I hope your team never sniffs the Super Bowl again.

Its attitudes like this that leave players in failing health and decrepit after they leave the game.

[InSpades]

He could walk, he should have been in there trying rather than to let an inexperienced third stringer bear the hopes for the team getting to the Super Bowl. That is why you play the game, to get to the Super Bowl! What in the world was he saving himself for?

There are hundreds if not thousands of players and ex-players that would have gone back out and given everything they had until the leg fell off. I hope Cutler never sniffs a Super Bowl again - trade him to the Bungles for Palmer so he can be comfortable and safe each post-season for the rest of his career.

I will bet there is a partial tear in a ligament and there will debate about how bad etc. But the dude was standing and walking without crutches and had NO ice on it!

Didn't he try? He went out there for 1 more series, no? And on the 3rd down pass on that drive you could tell his knee was affecting his throw.

The fact that he could stand and didn't have ice on his knee is pretty irrelevant. There are plenty of injuries that allow you to stand and don't require "ice" but would prevent you from being effective as a QB.

If he had played and done terribly would you then applaud his heart? If a backup had led them to victory would you applaud him for giving his team the best chance to win or criticize him for being a wuss?

[A-Tex Devil]

Didn't he try? He went out there for 1 more series, no? And on the 3rd down pass on that drive you could tell his knee was affecting his throw.

The fact that he could stand and didn't have ice on his knee is pretty irrelevant. There are plenty of injuries that allow you to stand and don't require "ice" but would prevent you from being effective as a QB.

If he had played and done terribly would you then applaud his heart? If a backup had led them to victory would you applaud him for giving his team the best chance to win or criticize him for being a wuss?

I loved the Bill Simmons comparison of Jay Cutler to James Spader's character in Pretty in Pink. Dead. On. Accurate.

So while I in no way believe Jay Cutler quit on his team, all of this hoo-ha claiming he wasn't hurt is what it is: hoo-ha. A sprained MCL=torn MCL. Still, considering Cutler's high degree of d-baggery, I would have certainly preferred the lie. Cheers.

[EDITED TO ADD: Did not quote InSpades purposely. Just commenting on a silly controversy]

[BD80]

For someone so willing to risk the life and limb of someone else to make themselves a bit happier, I would be more of the line of thought that I hope your team never sniffs the Super Bowl again.

Its attitudes like this that leave players in failing health and decrepit after they leave the game.

Wow, prone to hyperbole? So the fact that Kyrie injured himself playing basketball for Duke - for your happiness - makes you ... what?

In football there are injuries, moreso than in basketball. The players understand that and are compensated for that fact - quaterbacks more than the other players.

How would you feel as an opera goer who paid top $ for a diva who backs out with a bit of a cold (which affects her singing) in favor of an over the hill second rate performer who can't hit the notes at all; or a client whose top-rated attorney is a bit feverish and sends in an old second-chair lawyer who hasn't given a closing argument in years; or a shareholder who's CEO isn't up to crucial merger talks ...

If you don't like injuries, don't watch football.

Oh, "my" team, the Steelers, are "sniffing" their SEVENTH Lombardi trophy, thank you very much.


Didn't he try? He went out there for 1 more series, no? And on the 3rd down pass on that drive you could tell his knee was affecting his throw.

The fact that he could stand and didn't have ice on his knee is pretty irrelevant. There are plenty of injuries that allow you to stand and don't require "ice" but would prevent you from being effective as a QB.

If he had played and done terribly would you then applaud his heart? If a backup had led them to victory would you applaud him for giving his team the best chance to win or criticize him for being a wuss?

Fair questions. There have been times when I thought Brett Favre hurt his team by not coming out. My problem was that Cutler so readily accepted his "fate." I didn't think the single series (a 3 and out with 2 runs and a short pass) was much of a test. Once he saw how poorly Collins was playing, he should have at least given it another try. He moved just fine going across the field after the game to shake Rodger's hand.

Report is that is was/is a Class 2 MCL tear, which is a bad sprain. I believe that many football players have played with that type of sprain, or worse, including Drew Brees this year.

[Deslok]

Wow, prone to hyperbole? So the fact that Kyrie injured himself playing basketball for Duke - for your happiness - makes you ... what?

In football there are injuries, moreso than in basketball. The players understand that and are compensated for that fact - quaterbacks more than the other players.

How would you feel as an opera goer who paid top $ for a diva who backs out with a bit of a cold (which affects her singing) in favor of an over the hill second rate performer who can't hit the notes at all; or a client whose top-rated attorney is a bit feverish and sends in an old second-chair lawyer who hasn't given a closing argument in years; or a shareholder who's CEO isn't up to crucial merger talks ...

If you don't like injuries, don't watch football.
.
Hmmm, complete lack of logical counterargument? I would be just as appalled if Duke fans or others were saying "If Kyrie would just man up and get back on the basketball court, he's got a chance to win a national championship, that's what its all about and even if it might affect his ability to play in the years to come, he'd be a wimp if he doesn't come back and play in the ACC/NCAA tourneys." That's the analogous situation, not a player getting hurt in the routine course of events of action.

And I have been to see King Lear at the National Theatre in London where the lead was out, ailing and was filled in for. And I was still pleased with the performance, because while it might not have been as good, they still did their best to perform at an appropriate level. There is a reason you have understudies, backup QBs, 2nd chairs, etc. They need to be ready to go if given the chance.

And regarding Cutler, there is no hyperbole involved, but then I shouldn't be surprised that you are not conversant with the serious health repurcussions that could/would result for him had he attempted to fulfill your desires. To put it simply, I'll be surprised if he has all the parts of his hands and feet still attached in 30 years.

But enough, I'll just go on and root for the Packers now, even though I don't care a lick about them. After all, support of wimpy guys like Brian Urlacher doesn't mean much about anything.

[Duvall]

Oh, "my" team, the Steelers, are "sniffing" their SEVENTH Lombardi trophy, thank you very much.

That may explain a lot.


If you don't like injuries, don't watch football.

Well, *should* we? (http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/01/31/110131fa_fact_mcgrath?currentPage=all)

[Duvall]

I would be just as appalled if Duke fans or others were saying "If Kyrie would just man up and get back on the basketball court, he's got a chance to win a national championship, that's what its all about and even if it might affect his ability to play in the years to come, he'd be a wimp if he doesn't come back and play in the ACC/NCAA tourneys."

I have an awful fear that we'll be hearing exactly that a month from now.

[BD80]

Originally Posted by BD80
Oh, "my" team, the Steelers, are "sniffing" their SEVENTH Lombardi trophy, thank you very much

That may explain a lot.

[/url]

Was that intended to be as snobbish and condescending as it seems?

Are you looking down at Pittsburgh as a "blue-collar" town, or upon Steeler fans as unsophisticated? Remarks so snide are difficult to interpret correctly, and I would be loathe to misunderstand you.

[Duvall]

Was that intended to be as snobbish and condescending as it seems?

Are you looking down at Pittsburgh as a "blue-collar" town, or upon Steeler fans as unsophisticated? Remarks so snide are difficult to interpret correctly, and I would be loathe to misunderstand you.

Oh, not at all. I was just referring to the fact that Pittsburgh has some really, really dirty players with cavalier attitudes towards causing injuries. That's all.

[SoCalDukeFan]

Wow, some NFL players are really ripping Cutler (http://sports.espn.go.com/chicago/nfl/news/story?id=6051718) for not coming back in the game last night.



--Jason "Cutler just did not look that hurt -- but knees are tricky" Evans

is what the players think of Cutler.

If this was they respected who played tough and the coaches took him out of the game, they would say its too bad he got hurt. Do you think Favre or Brady or Peyton Manning would have gotten the same tweets in the same situation?

The Bears were not doing much with Cutler. He was hurt. While you mght say they weren't going to win without him, in my opinion they were not going to win with him either.

SoCal

[BD80]

Hmmm, complete lack of logical counterargument? I would be just as appalled if Duke fans or others were saying "If Kyrie would just man up and get back on the basketball court, he's got a chance to win a national championship, that's what its all about and even if it might affect his ability to play in the years to come, he'd be a wimp if he doesn't come back and play in the ACC/NCAA tourneys." That's the analogous situation, not a player getting hurt in the routine course of events of action.

And I have been to see King Lear at the National Theatre in London where the lead was out, ailing and was filled in for. And I was still pleased with the performance, because while it might not have been as good, they still did their best to perform at an appropriate level. There is a reason you have understudies, backup QBs, 2nd chairs, etc. They need to be ready to go if given the chance.

And regarding Cutler, there is no hyperbole involved, but then I shouldn't be surprised that you are not conversant with the serious health repurcussions that could/would result for him had he attempted to fulfill your desires. To put it simply, I'll be surprised if he has all the parts of his hands and feet still attached in 30 years.

But enough, I'll just go on and root for the Packers now, even though I don't care a lick about them. After all, support of wimpy guys like Brian Urlacher doesn't mean much about anything.

I apologize, I didn't realize there was an argument - I only saw the hyperbole.

The Kyrie analogy is somewhat apt, there is the issue is overcoming injury vs the desire to compete and to help your teammates win. I do think that there is a big difference between a 5 year veteran NFL quarterback and a college freshman with a cast on his foot who has yet to sign a pro contract. But if say, Nolan rolled an ankle in the final four and Andre and Seth had fouled out, I could see him trying to play with the ankle heavily taped.

With respect to Cutler, how does it impact your "argument" that Drew Brees played much of the year with a similar sprain/tear AND a small fracture in the knee? You so politely accuse me of ignorance as to the potential health hazards, but blithely ignore the inherent health hazards as "in the routine course of events." Sure, going back in his more dangerous than if he were perfectly healthy, but where do you draw the line? EVERY player on the field (except maybe the kickers and the bench warmers) is injured to some extent after 17 or 18 games. If every player that was injured did not return to the field, there wouldn't be enough players to play. NFL players play injured, the question is HOW much injury a player should endure. The fact that the second string qb was stinking up the joint and Cutler could still walk without a limp, indicated to me he should have tried to go back in. Think of all the other players who were playing with injuries that watched their chances of a Super Bowl swirl down the toilet bowl that was Todd Collins.

I am soooo impressed that you saw King Lear at the National Theatre in London, no pretentiousness at all in that name drop. You should have been warned that the cheap matinées usually feature the understudies :rolleyes: (please excuse the gratuitous cheap shot). If the understudy performed as poorly as Todd Collins, you would have walked out and demanded your money back. On that theatrical note, if you had seen an important performance (comparable to the NFC Championship) the star performer would have risked career ending illness to perform, rather to have an understudy take his role and acclaim.

Urlacher is supporting his teammate, that's something good teammates do. Pretty cool too, since after 11 injury filled years, he isn't likely to have too many more shots at the Super Bowl (particularly since the Bears traded TWO #1 picks to get Cutler). Urlacher would have gone back in.

[Mal]

I love the suggestion that he couldn't play because he couldn't plant to throw; one of the biggest criticisms of Cutler is that he REFUSES to plant his back foot to throw!

Just to be clear, it was his left knee, which is not connected to his back foot when he throws, as he's right-handed. He couldn't plant coming forward, putting weight over his left foot.


But the dude was standing and walking without crutches and had NO ice on it!

First, it was about 15 degrees out by the second half yesterday when the sun disappeared. I don't know if you were at Soldier Field or not, but I don't see much need for icing injuries in conditions where you can barely keep your beer liquid. Does icing a torn ligament do anything, anyway? More importantly, so what if he could walk? Would you have preferred that they needlessly dress up the injury for appearances, maybe mummified his knee in fifteen feet of wrap to make it appear more severe to laymen? That's what the Bears staff should be concerned with?

I lament that we have this little dance, where we expect our manly men QBs to go through the charade of gimping along on the sideline, throwing a ball with no zip and grimacing in pain, then going over to the coach and having him demonstrably shake his head. Otherwise, we just can't trust that this guy, who spent most of the season on his rear end after being bulldozed by 350 pound behemoths (and not, incidentally, whining about it), is really tough? That's essentially what Bears fans seem to have been wanting today. I'm a non-Bears fan living in their territory, so I've never been enamored of that particular group, but this might be a new low. First they managed to make me feel sorry for Rex Grossman, then they made me root for Lovie Smith, and now they've actually got me on Cutler's side. Amazing.

I know Cutler has no one to blame but himself for his surly attitude and the fact no one seems to like him. But if guys like Olin Kreutz and Brian Urlacher are strongly defending him and telling off the media for overreading the situation, then why are we questioning whether the guy wanted to play and win? We're reading waaaaaay too much into actions for which we have little or no context.

[BD80]

Oh, not at all. I was just referring to the fact that Pittsburgh has some really, really dirty players with cavalier attitudes towards causing injuries. That's all.

I'll object to the really, really dirty part. Can't really argue about the remainder.

Now, if you want to talk dirty, I will nominate the Raiders of the 70s.

[Mal]

But if say, Nolan rolled an ankle in the final four and Andre and Seth had fouled out, I could see him trying to play with the ankle heavily taped.

By noting this significantly more valid analogy, I think you're inadvertantly admitting that your Kyrie Irving coming down with turf toe in the 7th game of the year analogy is woefully inapt. Nonetheless, rolling an ankle is still not tearing an MCL, is it? And I think Deslok's point is that, no, we would not hold it against Nolan if he did tear an MCL in a Final Four game and did not, in fact, try to come back into the game. To act otherwise is to make it all about us and fulfilling our personal desires, when it's decidedly not.

To go back to King Lear, IMHO a football game, in the grand scheme of things, is about as "important" as any live theater performance. Most of us paid no money whatsoever to watch that game yesterday. We have no standing to be griping about a player not finishing the game. And those who bought tickets would have been there even if it had been announced in advance that Todd Collins would be starting. If we wanted to watch a story develop, we could have focused on Hanie playing better than Cutler did and almost bringing his team back, or the Packers becoming paralyzed with fear of blowing it and totally freezing up in the fourth quarter on offense. And if we had wanted the highest quality of play, we should have demanded someone other than the Bears, who pulled into the second seed in the NFC through a remarkable string of healthiness combined with opponent injury and meltdowns, have been in the NFC Championship Game (after beating a sub-.500 team the previous week) in the first place. That was an 8-8 team masquerading as a Super Bowl contender.

[BD80]

... And if we had wanted the highest quality of play, we should have demanded someone other than the Bears, who pulled into the second seed in the NFC through a remarkable string of healthiness combined with opponent injury and meltdowns, have been in the NFC Championship Game (after beating a sub-.500 team the previous week) in the first place. That was an 8-8 team masquerading as a Super Bowl contender.

I knew we could find grounds for agreement!

[Duke: A Dynasty]

I think the main reason people are firing off on Cutler is not because he did not try to come back in but because of the way he acted on the sideline. He seemed bored and disinterested, he did not try to help the other qbs when they were on the sideline and kinda stood to the side out of the way. Go back and watch Rodgers who (yea he wasnt injured but it is a good model to follow) was jumping up and down, congratulating teammates, pumping up players, watching the defense and geting excited for them, etc... If Cutler would have done half of that we might not have this conversation.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

Oh, not at all. I was just referring to the fact that Pittsburgh has some really, really dirty players with cavalier attitudes towards causing injuries. That's all.

Careful, Duvall, them's fighting words.

James Harrison may not be not a teddy bear, but he plays legally. Most of the complaints about the Steelers are simply tied to their success and that originates from other quarters. Would you stand for any Carolina fan lecturing you about how Christian Laettner's dirty play is the only reason Duke is any good?

No, you probably wouldn't.

[Duke4Ever32]

Oh, not at all. I was just referring to the fact that Pittsburgh has some really, really dirty players with cavalier attitudes towards causing injuries. That's all.

I'd be curious to know which Steelers you think are "really, really dirty players".

[Duvall]

I'd be curious to know which Steelers you think are "really, really dirty players".

Ward (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/11/04/dirty/index.html) and Harrison (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20101019_james_harrison_i_try_to_hurt_people), mostly.

[InSpades]

Careful, Duvall, them's fighting words.

James Harrison may not be not a teddy bear, but he plays legally. Most of the complaints about the Steelers are simply tied to their success and that originates from other quarters. Would you stand for any Carolina fan lecturing you about how Christian Laettner's dirty play is the only reason Duke is any good?

No, you probably wouldn't.

Harrison has been fined 4 times for a total of $125,000 this year. Apparently the league thinks he does not play as "legally" as you think he plays.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

Harrison has been fined 4 times for a total of $125,000 this year. Apparently the league thinks he does not play as "legally" as you think he plays.

I am not a Steelers fan by any stretch but those plays were not dirty. They were good solid hits imo. The league is just changing and you got to adapt.

@Duvall You think Ward is a dirty player?!?!?!?! He is one of the nicest most respected guys in the NFL. He is just not a puss when it comes to getting out of someones way.

Of all those guys in that article only Haynesworth is dirty. You could make a case for Finnegan but as far as I am aware he is not dirty either. He just talks a lot of S##t and trys to make you snap. I also can not comment on the to guards either cause I know nothing about them. The rest are just big time hitters and no one likes being hit hard but it is deff not dirty.

[InSpades]

I am not a Steelers fan by any stretch but those plays were not dirty. They were good solid hits imo. The league is just changing and you got to adapt.

"Dirty" or not is debatable. Legal or not really isn't. He was fined for the hits so they were illegal. He obviously hasn't adapted as quickly as they wanted him to.



@Duvall You think Ward is a dirty player?!?!?!?! He is one of the nicest most respected guys in the NFL. He is just not a puss when it comes to getting out of someones way.


I've always thought Hines had a bad reputation for illegal blocks. Admittedly I don't follow it that closely but he's gotten into his share of disputes.

[rthomas]

"Dirty" or not is debatable. Legal or not really isn't. He was fined for the hits so they were illegal. He obviously hasn't adapted as quickly as they wanted him to.

Harrison's fines were very questionable. And the NFL reduced the fines just because they thought he WAS adapting to the rule so well.

I think we've had this discussion before and I don't mind the rule change but don't make it in the middle of the season.



Harrison, Ward. I love those guys.

[Duke: A Dynasty]

"Dirty" or not is debatable. Legal or not really isn't. He was fined for the hits so they were illegal. He obviously hasn't adapted as quickly as they wanted him to.



I've always thought Hines had a bad reputation for illegal blocks. Admittedly I don't follow it that closely but he's gotten into his share of disputes.

Yes true but you still could argue to yourself or a friend that you think they should not have fined him for those because they were just good hits.

Not illegal just very rough tackles when the qb has thrown a pick. He does block very well and aggressive and defenders do not like that. He is a little like Steve Smith (Panthers), he likes to get rough and does not back down from a defender. Ward's hits tend to look bad because he hits guys who aren't looking because they are the ones who are focused on tackling the running back and prone to being destroyed. He also is not a trained tackler becuase he plays on offense so his technique is not good.

Im not sure if you have ever played football but when you play on offense and get creamed all the time by defenders you go all out when you get a chance to repay the favor (even if it may be a little late).

[Duke: A Dynasty]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6BfxMalwza4
These are Harrisons illegal hits. To me only one was kind of dirty and that was on Brees. Hit on Vince young is ok by me, the Browns wr was just and bad timing one, the next Browns wr one was just good hard defense (he was going for the upper chest) to make the reciever drop the ball, and the hit on Fitzpatrick is the one I disagree with the most. He got to the qb right as the ball was released, it is hard to stop on a time when you run full speed.

[InSpades]

Basically every single one of them is worthy of a fine. You could maybe argue against 1 or 2. When you hit the other guy in the head you are going to get a fine. When you drive a quarterback into the ground you are going to get a fine.

As for Hines Ward... he is so "respected" around the league that the Ravens "put a hit out" on him before a game. The Ravens probably aren't the ones you want to go to for an objective opinion on Hines Ward but he's definitely well known for his hits and I'm sure many of them were against the rules (called or not).

[Duke: A Dynasty]

Basically every single one of them is worthy of a fine. You could maybe argue against 1 or 2. When you hit the other guy in the head you are going to get a fine. When you drive a quarterback into the ground you are going to get a fine.

As for Hines Ward... he is so "respected" around the league that the Ravens "put a hit out" on him before a game. The Ravens probably aren't the ones you want to go to for an objective opinion on Hines Ward but he's definitely well known for his hits and I'm sure many of them were against the rules (called or not).


Im not saying they wont get fined at all. I just think they shouldnt have unless it was intentional. Do your best to determine intent then punish. His hit to the head of the guy his teammate was tackling he was clearly not trying for the head, it just happened that way.

The reason they had a supposed "hit" was because he absolutly destroyed Ed Reed in their previous game in that year. All but one of his hits were labeled clean because at the time they were legal. *Bad example alert* Night Train Lane hit dirty compared to now but back then it was fine. Same goes for Ward, he was just destroying people but since the new rule he has layed off. Thats why so many defensive players are getting fined. The rule was put in halfway through the year and its hard to adjust on the fly like that.

[InSpades]

Im not saying they wont get fined at all. I just think they shouldnt have unless it was intentional. Do your best to determine intent then punish. His hit to the head of the guy his teammate was tackling he was clearly not trying for the head, it just happened that way.

The reason they had a supposed "hit" was because he absolutly destroyed Ed Reed in their previous game in that year. All but one of his hits were labeled clean because at the time they were legal. *Bad example alert* Night Train Lane hit dirty compared to now but back then it was fine. Same goes for Ward, he was just destroying people but since the new rule he has layed off. Thats why so many defensive players are getting fined. The rule was put in halfway through the year and its hard to adjust on the fly like that.

1st off... the rule doesn't mention intent (as it shouldn't), just result. Obviously there is some leeway here (if a guy ducks his head so your chest hit becomes a helmet hit... that's probably his fault) but not much.

2nd... the rules didn't actually change mid-season. Just the punishments and how stricly they were enforcing them. So what previously might have gotten Harrison a $5,000 fine that he would laugh off suddenly got him a $50,000 fine.

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000d5d81b732df/article/anderson-on-flagrant-hits-no-new-rules-just-more-enforcement

[Jarhead]

Im not saying they wont get fined at all. I just think they shouldnt have unless it was intentional. Do your best to determine intent then punish. His hit to the head of the guy his teammate was tackling he was clearly not trying for the head, it just happened that way.

Yeah, sort of like he was in a parking lot, and heading toward a vacant space. All of a sudden another car appears, and he hits it in the side. He did not intend to hit the other car, so who's at fault?http://crazietalk.net/ourhouse/images/smilies/78.gif

[Duke4Ever32]

Ward (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2009/football/nfl/11/04/dirty/index.html) and Harrison (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news?slug=nfp-20101019_james_harrison_i_try_to_hurt_people), mostly.

Any others? I guess 2 may constitute "some" really, really dirty players (allegedly) in a technical sense, but not so for me. YMMV.

[BD80]

... Night Train Lane hit dirty compared to now but back then it was fine. ...

Receivers would rather run full speed into the goal post than get hit by NightTrain. He would LITERALLY try to take an opponents head off. He might not have invented the clothesline tackle, but he sure perfected it! Can't imagine how many concussions he doled out under today's concussion standards.

[tecumseh]

Steelers do not have a reputation for dirty play and I think it is worthwhile to note that both hits that Harrison had in the Browns game where not viewed as penalties at the time and at least one of the players knocked out, Cribbs I think says it was a clean hit. It is also worth noting that following the game the Massequa hit was on an NFL website and you could purchase downloads of this hit.

They did effectively change the rules midseason no way around that. We all have watched enough sports to know there is a great deal of interpretation in all sports and things are generally called a certain way. As far as Ward is concerned they actually instituted a rules change in the offseason to cut back on blind side receiver blocking. I side with Ward on this one especially in the past when they were not calling the "defenseless receiver" rule closely, why should the defenders be allowed to lay him out and him not strike back within the rules. What makes Ward so unusual is there are very few wide receivers willing to try to lay out defenders because they don't like that kind of contact, they don't have the build for it, and they are worried about retaliation. Nice to see a wide receiver get some shots in.

[Deslok]

Steelers do not have a reputation for dirty play and I think it is worthwhile to note that both hits that Harrison had in the Browns game where not viewed as penalties at the time and at least one of the players knocked out, Cribbs I think says it was a clean hit. It is also worth noting that following the game the Massequa hit was on an NFL website and you could purchase downloads of this hit.

They did effectively change the rules midseason no way around that. We all have watched enough sports to know there is a great deal of interpretation in all sports and things are generally called a certain way. As far as Ward is concerned they actually instituted a rules change in the offseason to cut back on blind side receiver blocking. I side with Ward on this one especially in the past when they were not calling the "defenseless receiver" rule closely, why should the defenders be allowed to lay him out and him not strike back within the rules. What makes Ward so unusual is there are very few wide receivers willing to try to lay out defenders because they don't like that kind of contact, they don't have the build for it, and they are worried about retaliation. Nice to see a wide receiver get some shots in.

Last season, in a poll of the dirtiest NFL players, 2 Steelers came out in the top 10. Polamalu at #9, and Hines Ward as the dirtiest player in the NFL. And this was a poll taken of NFL players themselves, not media or fans.

Just sayin...

[tecumseh]

That poll was a joke. Polamalu is a not a dirty player and I think there were 3% or the players who said so and there were a lot of players at that level. An anonymous poll with a response rate of below 20% and Troy had only a 3 something percent positive response rate. Basic stats tell you that poll means nothing.

That is the only time I have EVER heard of someone calling #43 a dirty player.

[InSpades]

That poll was a joke. Polamalu is a not a dirty player and I think there were 3% or the players who said so and there were a lot of players at that level. An anonymous poll with a response rate of below 20% and Troy had only a 3 something percent positive response rate. Basic stats tell you that poll means nothing.

That is the only time I have EVER heard of someone calling #43 a dirty player.

What exactly from "basic stats" would lead you to believe such a poll "means nothing"?

There were 296 responses and 3.7% of them said Polamalu was the "dirtiest player" in the NFL. This tells me that there were 11 NFL players who felt Troy is the "dirtiest player". If it was only 1 person who said it then I'd maybe agree with you that it "means nothing". Meanwhile something like 33 people said Hines Ward's name.

[BD80]

What exactly from "basic stats" would lead you to believe such a poll "means nothing"?

There were 296 responses and 3.7% of them said Polamalu was the "dirtiest player" in the NFL. This tells me that there were 11 NFL players who felt Troy is the "dirtiest player". If it was only 1 person who said it then I'd maybe agree with you that it "means nothing". Meanwhile something like 33 people said Hines Ward's name.

The Ravens are obsessed with, and despise the Steelers. Sounds like 11 of them had a bit if fun with this poll. A poll that can be so skewed is meaningless.

[InSpades]

The Ravens are obsessed with, and despise the Steelers. Sounds like 11 of them had a bit if fun with this poll. A poll that can be so skewed is meaningless.

Obviously possible. Also possible just that 11 people think Troy is dirty. I'd bet the Ravens would be way more likely to pick Hines Ward than anyone else. Lots of polls can be skewed, should we ignore all of them? Yao Ming got voted as an all-star starter!

Regardless.. I don't think it's a coincidence that Steelers and former Steelers always seem to show up on these types of lists (Porter, Harrison, Ward, etc.).

[hurleyfor3]

The Ravens are obsessed with, and despise the Steelers. Sounds like 11 of them had a bit if fun with this poll. A poll that can be so skewed is meaningless.

A Maryland-based team unnaturally fixated on a competitor that is vastly more accomplished on a national scale, and that usually defeats it in head-to-head contests? Where have I heard this before?

[tecumseh]

Obviously possible. Also possible just that 11 people think Troy is dirty. I'd bet the Ravens would be way more likely to pick Hines Ward than anyone else. Lots of polls can be skewed, should we ignore all of them? Yao Ming got voted as an all-star starter!

Regardless.. I don't think it's a coincidence that Steelers and former Steelers always seem to show up on these types of lists (Porter, Harrison, Ward, etc.).

This is a Duke Board right. Why do people hate Duke so much, I bet Laetner would have shown up on a lot of "dirtiest players" poll. I mean Steelers play hard nosed, winning football. You would not expect anyone to care about say the Carolina Panthers.

[InSpades]

This is a Duke Board right. Why do people hate Duke so much, I bet Laetner would have shown up on a lot of "dirtiest players" poll. I mean Steelers play hard nosed, winning football. You would not expect anyone to care about say the Carolina Panthers.

Are you saying what he did wasn't dirty? Take off the rose-colored glasses please. Obviously people exaggerate things but generally they exaggerate things that are somewhat true. JJ was cocky. Scheyer did make weird faces. Shane was probably planning his run for president during high school.

If the Steelers didn't do dirty things then they wouldn't have anything to exaggerate. I'd reckon the Steelers themselves would admit that they walk the line between tough and dirty. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's not like they are walking the line between fair play and cheating (*cough*Patriots*cough*).

[Andre Buckner Fan]

A Maryland-based team unnaturally fixated on a competitor that is vastly more accomplished on a national scale, and that usually defeats it in head-to-head contests? Where have I heard this before?

Not to mention a fan base known for violence against other fans and taking cheap shots. It must be something in the water in Maryland that puts chips on all their shoulders and hurls bottles from their fists. :rolleyes:

[Andre Buckner Fan]

Are you saying what he did wasn't dirty? Take off the rose-colored glasses please. Obviously people exaggerate things but generally they exaggerate things that are somewhat true. JJ was cocky. Scheyer did make weird faces. Shane was probably planning his run for president during high school.

If the Steelers didn't do dirty things then they wouldn't have anything to exaggerate. I'd reckon the Steelers themselves would admit that they walk the line between tough and dirty. There's nothing inherently wrong with that. It's not like they are walking the line between fair play and cheating (*cough*Patriots*cough*).

Yes, JJ was cocky. Yes, Laettner stomped. Yes, Scheyer made weird faces.

But we're talking about them because of their success, not because of their flaws. There have been far dirtier players in the history of college basketball, in fact they were so dirty it affected how well they played. We don't remember them.

The Steelers are a tough team and not a dirty team. I've never seen them ever dare to put out a hit out on any team. (Remember when the Ravens put out a hit on Rashard Mendenhall (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/blog/shutdown_corner/post/The-Ravens-put-a-bounty-on-Hines-Ward-and-Rashar?urn=nfl-116684) and he strangely had a broken bone after the game? Where was the media on that?) I've seen the Steelers get bashed and beat up over and over with no calls.

The Steelers are not perfect, but they're not dirtier than any other NFL team. In fact they've got stricter owners than most. The reason they top these kinds of polls are their six Lombardi trophies (and 3 Super Bowl appearances in the past 6 years). That's it.

(And calling Troy Polamalu dirty is unfounded and ridiculous.)

[InSpades]

The Steelers are not perfect, but they're not dirtier than any other NFL team. In fact they've got stricter owners than most. The reason they top these kinds of polls are their six Lombardi trophies (and 3 Super Bowl appearances in the past 6 years). That's it.


So you don't think the Steelers are the least bit dirty? You don't think Harrison getting fined more than $100k this year is a sign that he does anything wrong? I don't see many Patriots making these "dirty" lists and they've had just as much success (if not more) of late. There aren't many people calling the Colts dirty either despite their tremendous success. I don't remember people calling the Cowboys or the 49ers "dirty" in their heyday.

Maybe just maybe the Steelers are a bit more physical than most teams and some people see that as dirty? Nah.. nevermind. That can't be it, just a figment of my imagination. Everyone loves Hines Ward. James Harrison just keeps getting caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

So you don't think the Steelers are the least bit dirty? You don't think Harrison getting fined more than $100k this year is a sign that he does anything wrong? I don't see many Patriots making these "dirty" lists and they've had just as much success (if not more) of late. There aren't many people calling the Colts dirty either despite their tremendous success. I don't remember people calling the Cowboys or the 49ers "dirty" in their heyday.

Maybe just maybe the Steelers are a bit more physical than most teams and some people see that as dirty? Nah.. nevermind. That can't be it, just a figment of my imagination. Everyone loves Hines Ward. James Harrison just keeps getting caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There is a huge difference between playing smash mouth football and playing dirty football. Dirty is a serious term and it is thrown around way too lightly, much like claiming that the refs are dirty.

Well, there ARE some dirty refs, so you have to support what you claim. Harrison is not my favorite player. He walks a fine line between dirty and smashmouth. But only one of his hits seemed over the line to me.

Harrison plays mean football, but his fines were directly tied to him and the Steelers daring to challenge Goodell. There was a power struggle, and the fines flowed like water and also there were games that tallied up the most penalty yards in Steeler history. I find that more dirty than Harrison insisting on some kind of league wide consistency in fines and calls.

Goodell won the battle, and the Steelers eventually capitulated. But I think that is because all of them (even Harrison) believe in player safety, but they wanted to prove a point. Goodell was acting dictatorially and unevenly. Even for a good rule change, that's not good.

Maybe the problem here is in how we define "dirty."

[tecumseh]

On the infamous weekend in question EVERY football analyst agreed that the Pats safety's hit was the worst by far of the bunch and he did not get fined as much as Harrison. Go look at the plays, it makes no sense. In fact the fines against Harrison were so excessive that the league took the unprecedented step of reducing them.

[BD80]

So you don't think the Steelers are the least bit dirty? You don't think Harrison getting fined more than $100k this year is a sign that he does anything wrong? I don't see many Patriots making these "dirty" lists and they've had just as much success (if not more) of late. There aren't many people calling the Colts dirty either despite their tremendous success. I don't remember people calling the Cowboys or the 49ers "dirty" in their heyday.

Maybe just maybe the Steelers are a bit more physical than most teams and some people see that as dirty? Nah.. nevermind. That can't be it, just a figment of my imagination. Everyone loves Hines Ward. James Harrison just keeps getting caught in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Are you referring to the Patriots who DEVISED the wall of coaches on the sidelines and FIRST attempted to trip the opponent's gunner pushed toward that wall? No, they're not dirty. I am certain the control freak coach had no knowledge of what was going on.

The Cowboys? Are you serious? Ever hear of Randy White (born in Pittsburgh) - the "Manster" - half man, half monster? He was one of the nastiest players of all time, and he played at the same time Ray Nitzke played! You can add Lee Roy Jordan and Bob Lilly to the list as well.

[tecumseh]

The Brandon Merriweather hit was a very dirty play, Rodney Harrison retired Pats safety was often thought of as a dirty player. Of course it depends what you mean by "dirty" is cheating by filming another teams sidelines and practices dirty? If so then the Pats have a dirty front office. If you judge it by most steroid induced performance I would have to say that goes to Clay Mathews the steroid poster child of the NFL. PLEASE no cheeseheads try to claim he is clean, Barry Bonds and Lance Armstrong never failed drug tests either.

[InSpades]

Are you referring to the Patriots who DEVISED the wall of coaches on the sidelines and FIRST attempted to trip the opponent's gunner pushed toward that wall? No, they're not dirty. I am certain the control freak coach had no knowledge of what was going on.

The Cowboys? Are you serious? Ever hear of Randy White (born in Pittsburgh) - the "Manster" - half man, half monster? He was one of the nastiest players of all time, and he played at the same time Ray Nitzke played! You can add Lee Roy Jordan and Bob Lilly to the list as well.

I consider things like "wall of coaches" and "spygate" to be cheating, not dirty. Cheating is much worse than being dirty (you can include steroids in that too I guess).

And you bring up a guy who played on the Cowboys in the 70s? I was talking about their "heyday", you know, when they won 3 super bowls in 4 years. The topic was people hating on very successful teams.

Of course other teams have had dirty players. The Steelers just seem to have more than their fair share.

[BD80]

...And you bring up a guy who played on the Cowboys in the 70s? I was talking about their "heyday", you know, when they won 3 super bowls in 4 years. ...

Sorry, to me, that WAS the heyday of the Cowboys :D

[BD80]

I may have to rethink my Steelers fanaticism, forged over the last 46 years, tempered in the frosty winds of Three Rivers Stadium and hardened in hostile territories for over 30 years.

I can defend the Steelers for almost anything. Almost.

But this?

http://msn.foxsports.com/video/college-basketball?vid=71df0e05-aaa3-43ae-8ccd-56c8907249c9&from=foxsports/college-basketball/stories

Calipari is a Steeler fan.

Sob. :(

[Andre Buckner Fan]

Calipari is a Steeler fan.

Sob. :(


A-Rod is supposedly a Duke fan.

Yikes. :(

[moonpie23]

THIS (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/ben-roethlisbergers-bad-play) is dirty....

[BD80]

THIS (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/ben-roethlisbergers-bad-play) is dirty....

Come on, she may have been slutty ("DTF" name tag pretty much says it all) but you shouldn't call her "dirty" without all the facts. Didn't you hear about an incident with the Duke Lacrosse team that turned out to be a little different than the alleged victim (who was drunk) told the police?

My understanding is that the case crumbled when the "victim's" sexual history was raised, that this would not have been an unusual encounter for her. It would have been fairly and persuasively argued that this would have been a typical encounter for her.

Can "yes" mean "yes?"

If you want to convict Ben of being an A--hole, go ahead. I think he'd plead guilty.

Just watch out for thin ice ...

[Andre Buckner Fan]

THIS (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/crime/ben-roethlisbergers-bad-play) is dirty....

Yup. Roethlisberger is a scumbag off the field. As diehard a Steelers Fan as I am, there is no defense for him. He's an a--hole. But it's not clear if he's a rapist.

Trust me, if there had been a case there would have been lots of money and prestige for the lawyers. I don't think they'd pass up a case with any evidence attached to it. But they're more honest than Nifong, and didn't try to create evidence where there was none.

To me it sounds like two drunk off their asses idiots in a bar, who actually can't remember any of it (the accuser's story is rife with contradictions).

Personally I wish he'd been traded. He just brings a media circus along with him and he's awful at making decisions (remember when he cracked his skull open because he was riding a motorcycle without a helmet?).

But because he remains a Steeler, I vote for my team in spite of him, and still hope he'll be traded.

However from reading all the sources, I do doubt that he's guilty of rape. He's always been guilty of being an a--hole though... :(

[moonpie23]

Yup. Roethlisberger is a scumbag off the field. As diehard a Steelers Fan as I am, there is no defense for him. He's an a--hole. But it's not clear if he's a rapist.

Trust me, if there had been a case there would have been lots of money and prestige for the lawyers. I don't think they'd pass up a case with any evidence attached to it. But they're more honest than Nifong, and didn't try to create evidence where there was none.



i don't agree....i think they sat around, talked about how hard it would be to get a conviction against a major super-star athlete, discussed how it was a lose-lose situation and decided to chicken out on taking it to trial...

that little town didn't want to be the town that took down a superbowl winning super-star athlete...

[Andre Buckner Fan]

i don't agree....i think they sat around, talked about how hard it would be to get a conviction against a major super-star athlete, discussed how it was a lose-lose situation and decided to chicken out on taking it to trial...

that little town didn't want to be the town that took down a superbowl winning super-star athlete...

Why would a little Georgia town care one iota about prosecuting an athlete from hundreds of miles away? The Duke LAX players are a perfect parallel. Lawyers salavate over these kinds of cases. Trust me, if they had any kind of case they wouldn't bury it to be 'folksy.'

However, after the Duke LAX fiasco lawyers are a little more wary of getting into high profile "he said, she said" cases. (Hopefully they are also a little more wary of manufacturing evidence.)

[BD80]

i don't agree....i think they sat around, talked about how hard it would be to get a conviction against a major super-star athlete, discussed how it was a lose-lose situation and decided to chicken out on taking it to trial...

that little town didn't want to be the town that took down a superbowl winning super-star athlete...

They talked about a woman who had a promiscuous past, who was literally wearing a sign indicating she was ready for sex ("DTF"), and who consentually went back to meet Ben in the isolated area (bathroom). Other than the alleged victim's LATER interviews, there is NO evidence that the sex was anything but consentual, no one heard her protest. Is it distasteful for a multi-millionaire athlete in his late twenties to liquor-up and then have sex with a trampy 20 year old co-ed in a bar bathroom? You bet. Is it rape? Nope.

But I guess facts are less important to you than to a prosecutor.

[cato]

They talked about a woman who had a promiscuous past, who was literally wearing a sign indicating she was ready for sex ("DTF"), and who consentually went back to meet Ben in the isolated area (bathroom). Other than the alleged victim's LATER interviews, there is NO evidence that the sex was anything but consentual, no one heard her protest. Is it distasteful for a multi-millionaire athlete in his late twenties to liquor-up and then have sex with a trampy 20 year old co-ed in a bar bathroom? You bet. Is it rape? Nope.

But I guess facts are less important to you than to a prosecutor.

That is the most biased account of events that night that I have read. Are you Ben's defense attorney? Also, do you know the woman in question, or just predisposed to believe anything negative you heard about her?

IIRC, the only "fact" that lead prosecutors to drop charges was the "fact" that the victim declined to testify.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

IIRC, the only "fact" that lead prosecutors to drop charges was the "fact" that the victim declined to testify.

Call me cynical, but one does not hire a team of powerful lawyers and then willy-nilly decide against testifying. IMHO, her lawyers advised her strongly not to testify for one of the following reasons.

a) They didn't think she could win based on the evidence available.
b) Some under-the-table settlement was arranged.
c) Her story fell apart under cross examination and the available witnesses.

One does not hire a team of professionals to sue a big time athlete and then the next day decide, "oh whoops!"

(The fact that her defense team "accidentally" and illegally leaked her testimony inclines me to believe it is either a or c.)

But that's just me and my cynical opinions. :)

Not to assume Roethlisberger is innocent. I'm sure they both had sex in the bathroom. It's just that her story of being drug across the dance floor by bouncers could very easily be corroborated or debunked by witnesses on the dance floor. I'm sure lawyers were in contact with all these witnesses.

The most damning piece of evidence is the off duty cop with Roethlisberger who did not clamp down the scene after accusations were made. As an officer I'd assume he'd know what to do. Was he too drunk? Did he not like the girl? Who knows.

But that is the most damning piece of evidence that isn't hearsay. And on the face of it, a cop not doing his job suggests a cover-up.

But there are plenty of other possible reasons, and I'm thinking the trial would have hinged on those. But the accuser's testimony falling apart under scrutiny is not a good first step for the prosecution.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

But as I said... Roethlisberger is a scumbag. I wish he'd been traded. He's a good QB but he's not worth the media circus that follows him around.

Roethlisberger is clearly guilty of being an a--hole who cavorts with underage college girls trying to bed them. That's indisputable. That makes him a scummy person who I'd prefer wasn't the QB of my team.

But there is a difference between an a--hole and a rapist. The Duke LAX players were clearly scumbags (as witnessed by the tenor of their parties, their leaked emails and other damning evidence) but they were innocent of the rape in question.

Unfortunately in the law, you're not on trial for being an a--hole, you're on trial for a crime. I don't see much evidence either way, which makes me nauseous, because Big Ben is either a rapist who got away with it, or an idiotic partying moron targeted for his wealth and celebrity. The first should be in jail and I don't want the second as my team's QB.

I think Duke was right to cut ties with the LAX players even though they were innocent of the crime in question. I think the Steelers should have done the same.

But as an amateur detective reading all the details on the case, I can see why the lawyers did not go further. There is very little to go on that isn't pure hearsay, or "he said, she said."

[cato]

Call me cynical, but one does not hire a team of powerful lawyers and then willy-nilly decide against testifying. IMHO, her lawyers advised her strongly not to testify for one of the following reasons.

a) They didn't think she could win based on the evidence available.
b) Some under-the-table settlement was arranged.
c) Her story fell apart under cross examination and the available witnesses.

One does not hire a team of professionals to sue a big time athlete and then the next day decide, "oh whoops!"

(The fact that her defense team "accidentally" and illegally leaked her testimony inclines me to believe it is either a or c.)

But that's just me and my cynical opinions. :)


You may be right, although everything you say is pure speculation. The family could have simply decided enough was enough after getting an in depth understanding of the process. Obviously, we won't ever know. I just wanted to point out that prosecutor did not examine the evidence and decide not to proceed, as suggested by Ben's supporter above.

[Andre Buckner Fan]

You may be right, although everything you say is pure speculation. The family could have simply decided enough was enough after getting an in depth understanding of the process. Obviously, we won't ever know. I just wanted to point out that prosecutor did not examine the evidence and decide not to proceed, as suggested by Ben's supporter above.

You may be right. The damned thing of it is, we'll never know.

I believe if you do some research you will find that both the prosecutor and the defense did examine the evidence.

I'm not a Ben supporter, but I am a supporter of the Steelers.

It's like all the allegations against Sheldon Williams (which also were never resolved to my satisfaction) didn't make me not support Duke.

[cato]

I believe if you do some research you will find that both the prosecutor and the defense did examine the evidence.


Fair enough. You seem to have a better handle on the situation than I do, and I certainly agree with your overall take. (And, frankly, I don't want to do any more research, because the whole situation was so disgusting.)