2 Questions

[PADukeMom]

Good Morning my fellow Duke faithful. Humor me this morning; it's a cold Wednesday morning & the job I planned to do this morning fell through & the last thing I want to do is take down Christmas decorations.

I have 2 matters to debate:

1. Nolan Smith contiunes to have a monster season while Kyle is his normal silent but deadly usual self. Nolan wina ACC POY while Kyle takes NPOY & we win the NCAA. Do both jerseys go to the rafters?

2. Nolan continues to be awesome & the team is clicking as a unit. Kyrie isn't active until the end of February beginning of March. Does K start Kyrie or does he use him off the bench?

[94duke]

Good Morning my fellow Duke faithful. Humor me this morning; it's a cold Wednesday morning & the job I planned to do this morning fell through & the last thing I want to do is take down Christmas decorations.

I have 2 matters to debate:

1. Nolan Smith contiunes to have a monster season while Kyle is his normal silent but deadly usual self. Nolan wina ACC POY while Kyle takes NPOY & we win the NCAA. Do both jerseys go to the rafters?

2. Nolan continues to be awesome & the team is clicking as a unit. Kyrie isn't active until the end of February beginning of March. Does K start Kyrie or does he use him off the bench?

1. While I think jersey retirement usually sparks its own thread (or threads) throughout the season, I will give a partial answer. If Kyle is his normal silent but deadly self, he will not win NPOY. NPOY would be Sullinger (IMO).

2. If Kyrie comes back, I think he would start, but we would continue to run our offense as we are now (a bit slower than earlier in the year). I thought I remembered Coach K saying this in an interview, but I can't seem to find it now. Maybe some else remembers and can find it.
Kyrie is a better PG than Seth, so Kyrie would start. Nolan will continue to attack from the "2." Kyrie would be able to break down defenses when we need a bucket. It sure would be a fun way to finish out the season. :)

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Good Morning my fellow Duke faithful. Humor me this morning; it's a cold Wednesday morning & the job I planned to do this morning fell through & the last thing I want to do is take down Christmas decorations.

I have 2 matters to debate:

1. Nolan Smith continunes to have a monster season while Kyle is his normal silent but deadly usual self. Nolan wins ACC POY while Kyle takes NPOY & we win the NCAA. Do both jerseys go to the rafters?

2. Nolan continues to be awesome & the team is clicking as a unit. Kyrie isn't active until the end of February beginning of March. Does K start Kyrie or does he use him off the bench?
1. Pleasant thoughts indeed! Unless Nolan wins a national POY award I think he's rewarded with Hall of Honor status and not jersey retirement status. HoH should not be regarded as a minor accomplishment by anyone here!
2. Kyrie comes off the bench for one game, maybe two, and then he starts. That's a no brainer!

[gam7]

1. While I think jersey retirement usually sparks its own thread (or threads) throughout the season, I will give a partial answer. If Kyle is his normal silent but deadly self, he will not win NPOY. NPOY would be Sullinger (IMO).:)

I think it's funny that we are describing Kyle with a term usually reserved to describe flatulence.

[superdave]

Good Morning my fellow Duke faithful. Humor me this morning; it's a cold Wednesday morning & the job I planned to do this morning fell through & the last thing I want to do is take down Christmas decorations.

I have 2 matters to debate:

1. Nolan Smith contiunes to have a monster season while Kyle is his normal silent but deadly usual self. Nolan wina ACC POY while Kyle takes NPOY & we win the NCAA. Do both jerseys go to the rafters?

2. Nolan continues to be awesome & the team is clicking as a unit. Kyrie isn't active until the end of February beginning of March. Does K start Kyrie or does he use him off the bench?

I think Nolan at this point has a better shot at NPOY than Kyle. He's playing point and the leading scorer for the #1 team. NPOY is likely his only route to jersey retirement though, as previously mentioned.

Other NPOY threats: Sullinger at OSU, Fredette at BYU, Kemba at UConn and Singler at Duke. In fact, those 5 probably make up your first team All-America. Kemba seems to be emerging as the front runner for NPOY in the media, but if UConn winds up out of the top 15, it's hard for him to win it no matter his stats.

Also, keep in mind that Singler started off slow last year then won ACC tourney mvp and NCAA tourney mop. So he just might do the same this year. But I would argue that Nolan has had the better season to date and deserves to be at least in the top 3 in NPOY voting.

[OldPhiKap]

Great questions.

1. If we win another NC, and either of those players are a first-team AA, I would assume they should get their jersey retired.

2. I think Kyrie would come off the bench to start, and would have starter's minutes as soon as he is physically able. Best five guys on the floor. Whether he starts or not probably depends on the match-up as well as how Andre/Seth are performing at that time. Nolan, Kyle, and at least one big are assured starters.

[swood1000]

1. Pleasant thoughts indeed! Unless Nolan wins a national POY award I think he's rewarded with Hall of Honor status and not jersey retirement status. HoH should not be regarded as a minor accomplishment by anyone here!
2. Kyrie comes off the bench for one game, maybe two, and then he starts. That's a no brainer!
How are HoH and jersey retirement determined? Edict by Coach K? Does this happen at the end of this season or at the start of next season?

[Duvall]

How are HoH and jersey retirement determined? Edict by Coach K? Does this happen at the end of this season or at the start of next season?

Edict by Coach K (technically, it's supposed to come from the administration, but come on); middle of the next season, probably.

[CDu]

Good Morning my fellow Duke faithful. Humor me this morning; it's a cold Wednesday morning & the job I planned to do this morning fell through & the last thing I want to do is take down Christmas decorations.

I have 2 matters to debate:

1. Nolan Smith contiunes to have a monster season while Kyle is his normal silent but deadly usual self. Nolan wina ACC POY while Kyle takes NPOY & we win the NCAA. Do both jerseys go to the rafters?

2. Nolan continues to be awesome & the team is clicking as a unit. Kyrie isn't active until the end of February beginning of March. Does K start Kyrie or does he use him off the bench?

1. I fall in the camp that it takes a LOT to get your jersey retired. As such, I'd think that Smith would need at least ACC player of the year and probably a first-team All-America honor to even be in the discussion. It may even require a second championship, because he's got to make up for having a smaller role as a freshman and sophomore. That said, it would still be a great accomplishment to get into the Hall of Honor, and I have no doubts that he'll get there. I hate that this sounds like I'm making a case against Smith, but that's the way I see.

Singler's case is a stronger. Barring the unforseeen, he will finish with four All-ACC honors (likely two first-team honors), and at least an ACC Tourney MVP, and an NCAA Final Four MOP. And (again, barring something unexpected) he's got a really good chance to pass Gminski (and a small chance of passing Laettner) on the all-time scoring list. I think if he finishes the season strong, his resume will be a shoe-in for retirement.

2. I think that as soon as Irving is healthy and ready to be one of the five best players on the court again, he'll return to the starting lineup.

[superdave]

Edict by Coach K (technically, it's supposed to come from the administration, but come on); middle of the next season, probably.

Anyone think that anything less than NPOY by Nolan gets his jersey hung?

[swood1000]

Edict by Coach K (technically, it's supposed to come from the administration, but come on); middle of the next season, probably.
Do you say "technically" because there is some university bylaw on the subject (maybe dealing with honors bestowed by the university) or because Coach K's jurisdiction extends to coaching the team this year but that the issues of (a) binding future coaches and (b) making permanent changes to Cameron (such as hanging a jersey) require administration approval?

[jimsumner]

Some thoughts.

Way too early to start allocating POY awards.

Should Nolan win a recognized NPOY award and graduate (no problems expected), he likely would have his jersey retired.

There is precedent for Irving coming off the bench, at least for awhile. Bobby Hurley came off the bench in his first game back after breaking his foot in 1992. Grant Hill continued to come off the bench later that same year when he returned from a foot injury. Boozer came off the bench his first two games back in '01 but started in the FF.

Boozer's return is illustrative. K told Boozer that the team had changed in his absence and the team would not adjust to him, he would have to adjust to the team.

[swood1000]

Here's an interesting opinion on the subject of jersey retirement: http://www.dwhoops.com/g_schweitzer.php, prompted by the apparent refusal to retire Georgia Schweitzer's jersey. Among other things, the author said:


The question of what factors go into determining how a number is retired at Duke used to be delightfully vague--and in our opinion, appropriately so. Unfortunately, when the question of Georgia's jersey being retired arose, the administration presented the new criterion that for a player to be so honored that they must win a national player of the year award. This rule was communicated to the public when President Brodhead spoke at JJ Redick's jersey retirement -he noted that in order for a jersey to be retired, a player must win national player of the year and must graduate. Prior to that moment, there had been no officially issued criteria for what was explicitly required for a jersey to be retired. Indeed, if these current criteria were to be applied now, retroactively, then the jerseys of Bobby Hurley and Jeff Mullins would have to come down. Moreover, if they hadn't added in a "or win national defensive player of the year" kicker, we'd have to take down the jerseys of Shelden Williams & Grant Hill as well.

[PADukeMom]

Okay...Hurley & Grant Hill...both retired & neither NPOY.

[94duke]

Okay...Hurley & Grant Hill...both retired & neither NPOY.

Hurley - National Record holder for career assists
Grant Hill - National Defensive Player of the Year

[PADukeMom]

There is precedent for Irving coming off the bench, at least for awhile. Bobby Hurley came off the bench in his first game back after breaking his foot in 1992. Grant Hill continued to come off the bench later that same year when he returned from a foot injury. Boozer came off the bench his first two games back in '01 but started in the FF.

Boozer's return is illustrative. K told Boozer that the team had changed in his absence and the team would not adjust to him, he would have to adjust to the team.


My feelings exactly. If this team continues to develop my opinion, while Kyrie is flat-out the best point guard on the team, would K mess with a winning combination? I can see him coming off as the 6th man off the bench & getting tons of minutes. I would hope Kyrie is in game day shape. Again...fresh legs are a great thing in March.

[PADukeMom]

Hurley - National Record holder for career assists
Grant Hill - National Defensive Player of the Year

You guys are killing me with logic but you are also absolutely correct. Trajan wasn't retired so after the season I will have to just be happy with a Nolan Smith jersey.

[CDu]

Hurley - National Record holder for career assists
Grant Hill - National Defensive Player of the Year

I'll add to add to that:

Hurley: Two-time All-America, three-time All-ACC, NCAA Tourney MOP, three Final Fours, two national championships
Hill: Two-time All-America, two-time 1st team All-ACC, three time All-ACC, three Final Fours, two national championships

There is no specific criteria that earns you a jersey retirement, but the bar is set VERY high.

I won't say that Smith can't make it (I think an NPOY and a second national championship would be a strong argument in his favor). But he's got a lot of ground to make up on the guys whose jerseys are hanging. That's a compliment to those guys, because Smith is obviously a fantastic representative of the Duke program.

[jimsumner]

Okay...Hurley & Grant Hill...both retired & neither NPOY.

And both retired prior to the Schweitzer criteria allued to earlier.

Shelden Williams was national DPOY and had his jersey retired.

Amaker, King and Wojo were national DPOYs and didn't. But none of those three ever made All-America or first-team All-ACC. Shelden did and also finished first in career rebounds and blocked shots at Duke.

Hence the retired jersey,

I think we should retire the word "criteria." "Guidelines" is more like it.

[OldPhiKap]

Grant Hill - National Defensive Player of the Year

So were Tommy Amaker, Billy King, and Wojo (IIRC).

I think if you are a first-team national AA, you should be eligible for consideration. How many first teamers have we had in the last 30 years who are not hanging in the rafters?


(Edit: drat -- Jim beat me to the "post" button again!)

[Neals384]

You can go ahead and get the rope ready to hang Kyle’s number. Here are some of his stats (see the Kyle Singler Stat Records thread for details).

Points: 1,995 to date; projected to finish somewhere between #3 and #5 on the all time Duke list.

Rebounds: 837; could finish as high as 6th all time.

Blocks 99; could finish in the top 10

Assists 252

Steals 152

Awards:
• 2007 Maui Invitational MVP
• 2007–08 ACC Rookie of the Year
• 2007–08 ACC All-Rookie Team
• 2007–08 All-ACC Third Team
• 2008 2K Sports Classic MVP
• 2008–09 All-ACC Second Team
• 2009–10 All-ACC First Team
• 2010 ACC Tournament MVP
• 2010 NCAA Tournament Final Four Most Outstanding Player
• 2010 Sporting News College Athlete of the Year

[PADukeMom]

I hear what you are saying & do agree for the most part; you have to be special to go to the rafters. A lot of great players weren't retired.
I feel pain whenever I see a player wearing #21 because, in my heart, that will be Trajan forever. Sending some love MP...no worries.
Okay I will wait until April 5th to make this arguement. That is 3 short months away.:)

[94duke]

So were Tommy Amaker, Billy King, and Wojo (IIRC).

I think if you are a first-team national AA, you should be eligible for consideration. How many first teamers have we had in the last 30 years who are not hanging in the rafters?


(Edit: drat -- Jim beat me to the "post" button again!)

From the media guide, consensus 1st team AA not in the rafters:

Bob Verga 1967
Elton Brand 1999
Chris Carrawell 2000

[slower]

My feelings exactly. If this team continues to develop my opinion, while Kyrie is flat-out the best point guard on the team, would K mess with a winning combination? I can see him coming off as the 6th man off the bench & getting tons of minutes. I would hope Kyrie is in game day shape. Again...fresh legs are a great thing in March.

I can't imagine Kyrie NOT being a starter as soon as he's back in game shape.

[jimsumner]

I've said this before but I think it bears repeating.

The standards for jersey/number retirement at Duke have to be exceptionally high because of the great success of the program. Look at some of the players who have not been so honored. Bob Verga. Jim Spanarkel. Gene Banks. Mark Alarie. Trajan Langdon. Randy Denton. Jon Scheyer. Chris Carrawell. Mike Lewis.

Think about Denton for a second. Career averages of 19.7 ppg and 12.7 rpg, the latter the best in school history. Second-team All-ACC twice, first-team All-ACC once.

How many schools would not have retired the jersey of someone with those qualifications?

Or those of Verga, first-team All-ACC three times, two-time All-America, 22.0 ppg career average? Alarie has 2,136 career points, 833 rebounds, Banks 2,079 points, 985 rebounds, Langdon first-team All-ACC three times, Spanarkel the first Duke player with more than 2,000 points.

And these are the guys who didn't make the cut

What a wealth of riches.

[Reilly]

And both retired prior to the Schweitzer criteria allued to earlier.

Shelden Williams was national DPOY and had his jersey retired.

Amaker, King and Wojo were national DPOYs and didn't. But none of those three ever made All-America or first-team All-ACC. Shelden did and also finished first in career rebounds and blocked shots at Duke.

Hence the retired jersey,

I think we should retire the word "criteria." "Guidelines" is more like it.

I like your comment about 'criteria' v. 'guidelines.' I'd be a hard grader and my guidelines much tougher. I think the player should be some combination of transformative and breathtaking and beloved (how's that for squishy guidelines). Maybe Groat, Johnny D, Laettner, Hill and Battier meet those criteria for me. Even though Shelden racked up numbers and awards, his jersey retirement always seemed to me to not belong.

[superdave]

Shelden Williams was national DPOY and had his jersey retired.


Shelden was also 3rd team All America as a junior and 1st team as a senior.

[jimsumner]

Shelden was also 3rd team All America as a junior and 1st team as a senior.

That was covered one paragraph below the paragraph cited.

[JayZee]

I think we should retire the word "criteria." "Guidelines" is more like it.

Maybe we could use a K word - Standards...

I assume it is a combination of National Awards (NPOY, NDPOY) and Championships (NC and ACC)

And if Nolan wins a major POY award AND another NC, is there any way his jersey is not hung? I say no.