Hands

[Lord Ash]

So I just wanted to ask about "hands."

We have a few players who seem to have excellent hands. Kyle and Ryan in particular stick out to me... they are great at pulling in rebounds, great at grabbing loose balls, and Ryan in particular is great at blocking using his hands (as opposing to jumping ability.)

How much of this is innate talent/basketball IQ, and how much of it is something that can be taught through hand-eye coordination exercises and strengthening exercises? I feel like having good hands is a HUGE asset (see Brand, Elton) but I am not sure I ever remember seeing a guy go from having sketchy hands to good hands.

[JBDuke]

So I just wanted to ask about "hands."

We have a few players who seem to have excellent hands. Kyle and Ryan in particular stick out to me... they are great at pulling in rebounds, great at grabbing loose balls, and Ryan in particular is great at blocking using his hands (as opposing to jumping ability.)

How much of this is innate talent/basketball IQ, and how much of it is something that can be taught through hand-eye coordination exercises and strengthening exercises? I feel like having good hands is a HUGE asset (see Brand, Elton) but I am not sure I ever remember seeing a guy go from having sketchy hands to good hands.

I remember Shelden improving dramatically in this way over his four years. He became pretty adept at holding onto the ball by his senior year, after demonstrating an almost Casey Sanders level of stone hands his freshman year.

[Lord Ash]

Oh Casey... my second-most-lasting memory of Casey is him fumbling the ball and then clapping his hands in frustration.

My first most, of course, was him helping us win a national title:)

Interesting example about Shel... I hadn't remembered him having fumbling hands early on... I just remember him get whistled for a fair number of fouls.

So do you think "hands" are teachable? I know in hockey as a goalie I did a LOT of drills involving hand-eye coordination that would seem to be helpful... I don't know how much of it is coordination, how much is strength, and how much of it is natural. I hope it is a teachable trait.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

I suspect it's also related to two other things that are really part of the mental game:

Court awareness - knowing the situation, where you are, where others are, etc.

Readiness - being in the right position, expecting the ball, maintaining your composure, etc.

Watch Kyle when one of our guards is driving and you will always see his hands up and in ready position to receive the ball. Versus other players who still seem to get surprised sometimes when the ball is passed to them inside. Or think about the opportunty Miles had last night when he nicely grabbed a offensive rebound in traffic but missed the 2-ft stick back. He rushed it and shot it too hard. Kyle like other great players justs seems to be able to slow the game down for himself.

My $.02 anyway.

[SCMatt33]

If the last four years are any indication of this, the hands ability of a player is directly proportional to facial hair. Seriously though, Zoubs had a ridiculous improvement in this department over four years. I remember watching him his freshman and sophomore year when he had to tip up every rebound three times before he could haul it in, usually having it knocked away before that happened. By the time he left last year as we all know, he was pretty much a 7 foot vacuum cleaner on the glass.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Repetition in practice (and after practice and during the summers) using proper technique (with proper instruction from a great big man coach like, um Wojo!) gives a big man better hands as he matures. And I'm talking about not hundreds but thousands of repetitions. That's the kind of dedication that Zoubs and Lance had, and I'm pretty sure that MP1 and MP2 and all our other guys do too. Otherwise they wouldn't see the court during the games.

[superdave]

Speaking as a former high school forward/center, all passes not delivered directly into my chest or stomach would be dropped or missed entirely. I blame the guards passing the ball. Of course my coach solved the problem by benching me.

One hands type issue that I have seen Nolan do more this year than last is cradle the ball like a running back when he drives the lane so it's near impossible to strip him. Once he reaches his desired spot he then extends for a layup or floater. Seems to work well for him.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

Speaking as a former high school forward/center, all passes not delivered directly into my chest or stomach would be dropped or missed entirely. I blame the guards passing the ball. Of course my coach solved the problem by benching me.

One hands type issue that I have seen Nolan do more this year than last is cradle the ball like a running back when he drives the lane so it's near impossible to strip him. Once he reaches his desired spot he then extends for a layup or floater. Seems to work well for him.

Wouldn't be surprised if this was an influence of Kyrie. He brought that to the team and talked about how in high school he had to do that when they practiced without the benefit of fouls being called.

[uh_no]

Wouldn't be surprised if this was an influence of Kyrie. He brought that to the team and talked about how in high school he had to do that when they practiced without the benefit of fouls being called.

i was going for the exact same thought. Either that or the work with NBA guys over the summer. another great user of it is kemba walker

it allows you to not get stripped and also, if you try to strip it, you're just asking for a foul....its a great move (given I hate that players can take like 5 steps before a layup....grrrr but that's another story)

[superdave]

i was going for the exact same thought. Either that or the work with NBA guys over the summer. another great user of it is kemba walker

it allows you to not get stripped and also, if you try to strip it, you're just asking for a foul....its a great move (given I hate that players can take like 5 steps before a layup....grrrr but that's another story)

Unfortunately I think it's more of a playground/pickup basketball thing. For every pickup good habit that gets learned (cradling the ball) there seems to be something bad that gets learned (Nolan using his forearm to brace for contact). I've seen Nolan called for maybe 3-4 charges this year where he might have been fine if not for raising the arm. Hope he recognizes it.

[Newton_14]

So I just wanted to ask about "hands."

We have a few players who seem to have excellent hands. Kyle and Ryan in particular stick out to me... they are great at pulling in rebounds, great at grabbing loose balls, and Ryan in particular is great at blocking using his hands (as opposing to jumping ability.)

How much of this is innate talent/basketball IQ, and how much of it is something that can be taught through hand-eye coordination exercises and strengthening exercises? I feel like having good hands is a HUGE asset (see Brand, Elton) but I am not sure I ever remember seeing a guy go from having sketchy hands to good hands.

I think a big part of it is just a natural gift one is born with. That said, hard work, as we saw with Zoubs, can make a difference, and players can improve their hands over time.

Miles still needs lots of improvement with his hands and can be so much better of a player if he does. One player on our team that I feel has great hands is Josh. I noticed this watching him this summer at the games at Central. It helps him greatly in rebounding and catching difficult passes in traffic.

[tele]

For improving hand eye coordination, catching the ball, etc, I've heard learning and practicing juggling recommended. Seems like it might work. It was actually recommended by a Hall of fame football player for a current Bulls center. Might be worth a try.

[Devilsfan]

I was surprised at the PC manner you brought up "hands". Telling us what we already know. Kyle and Ryan have "hands". The real issue is that Miles sometimes seems like he never played catch growing up. It's not volleyball although sometimes it looks like that's what he's playing. He has moments of greatness, then will either bat a rebound or drop a pass thrown right at him. Must be frustrating for him too.

[Greg_Newton]

I suspect it's also related to two other things that are really part of the mental game:

Court awareness - knowing the situation, where you are, where others are, etc.

Readiness - being in the right position, expecting the ball, maintaining your composure, etc.

Watch Kyle when one of our guards is driving and you will always see his hands up and in ready position to receive the ball. Versus other players who still seem to get surprised sometimes when the ball is passed to them inside. Or think about the opportunty Miles had last night when he nicely grabbed a offensive rebound in traffic but missed the 2-ft stick back. He rushed it and shot it too hard. Kyle like other great players justs seems to be able to slow the game down for himself.

My $.02 anyway.

Great points, and they're related to what I was going to bring up - confidence in general. Sometimes when players don't feel comfortable, they compensate by playing a little too hard, rather than playing smart. I think Miles still does this a lot... that he's focusing on jumping super high on a turnaround rather than bumping back his defender, that he's clenching his core and upper arms when receiving a pass rather than his forearms and fingers.

I think this is the main way "bad hands" can be changed, by just getting comfortable with where you are and what you do on the court, and understanding what's going on around you rather just reacting to it. Hopefully he'll get there.

[gumbomoop]

.... just getting comfortable with where you are and what you do on the court, and understanding what's going on around you rather just reacting to it.

Not wanting to start a new thread, I, too, tend to think the "hands" issue is related to a broader issue, what is probably generally thought of as an intuitive "feel for the game."

Switching from the general focus on Miles in this thread, I'm fascinated by the differences between Ryan and Mason. No question that Mason has great, great promise. In the unsettling off-season that was spring-summer '09 - remember? - I was cheerfully upbeat, secure in the knowledge that I had seen the future, and his name was Mason Plumlee. No G, no EWill? No problem, we got Mason. The first time I heard Jay Bilas quoted as having named Mason as the most talented Blue Devil, I thought, yep, Jay and me know what's up. And all that NBA mock-draft stuff, then and now [I assume].

But .... Mason's "stuff" doesn't translate well in real games - yet. He's not figured things out, for his court sense is underdeveloped, a sort of anti-Jon not-good-awareness. His several skills are very impressive - if only all those opposing players would get out of his way. True enough, intermittently one or more of those skills comes forth with dazzling effect. But too - way too - intermittently.

Contrast Ryan, whose got strong skills - but not NBA mock-lottery-level. Compared to Mason's wow-factor, Ryan looks somewhat pedestrian. But his court instincts, his feel for the game, is a bit ahead of Mason's just now.

They'll both play big roles this season. I'm hoping that Ryan will continue to sneak up on opponents with his near-complete skill-set; and I'm hoping - really hoping - to see more consistency from Mason. I definitely hope to have fewer outbursts [directed toward fate, of course, not toward Mason himself] that accompany a play in which Mason loses the ball because he has not recognized that an opponent is hovering near, ready to slap the ball from his ... ta da ... hands.

[TheRob8801]

I was surprised at the PC manner you brought up "hands". Telling us what we already know. Kyle and Ryan have "hands". The real issue is that Miles sometimes seems like he never played catch growing up. It's not volleyball although sometimes it looks like that's what he's playing. He has moments of greatness, then will either bat a rebound or drop a pass thrown right at him. Must be frustrating for him too.

A thousand times, this.

I think a good way to describe the discrepancy is that on many occasions Miles is not looking for or anticipating the ball. The times when his "hands" are not on their "A-game" seem to be when he gets a quick pass outside of the rhythm or on an improvised scramble. What comes to mind in the Miami game was early in one of Duke's first possessions when Ryan got caught underneath the bucket and passed out to Miles. Although the pass wasn't directly to Sir Plumlee it was close enough that had he been anticipating the ball coming his way he could have at very least tracked it down before it went out of bounds for a turnover. That isn't the only time I've seen it however. It may stem from the fact that Miles (nor Mason) are true "underneath" players. More the PF build than the C build. I'm hoping that Marshall is more adept at tracking down the ball than Miles. Having the size and chemistry of all 3 of them on the court at the same time is going to be exciting, but that's another thread.

In the end it's not like we've never seen this from Duke players in the past and it is definitely something that can (see Zoubs) and often doesnt (see Stonehands Sanders) change. Fortunately Miles athleticism and strength often make up for the fact that he isn't instinctively a "ball hawk".

[flyingdutchdevil]

I think a big part of it is just a natural gift one is born with. That said, hard work, as we saw with Zoubs, can make a difference, and players can improve their hands over time.

I thought that Zoubs always had great hands during his four years at Duke but couldn't work his feet during those first three years?

Great hand work seems like a natural thing to me. You are either a butterfinger (Casey Sanders) or have naturally great hands (Brand, Zoubs). There can definitely be significant improvement (already seeing it in the Brothers Plumlee) but it seems more innate than anything. From what I've seen, great feet, on the other hand, can be developed more effectively than great hands. Anywho - just my two cents.

[Lord Ash]

So, can I ask... is it my imagination, or have Mason's hands in particular (and, to a much lesser extent, Miles') seemed to REALLY improve over the last few games? Mason seems to have grabbed a LOT of loose balls in traffic and under the basket, which has never been his strong point, and really held on to them. Mason's hands seem much improved of late.

[uh_no]

have naturally great hands (Brand, Zoubs).

Look, I love Z as much as the next guy because of what he became, not because of what he was at the beginning, and the beginning did NOT involve good, let alone great hands.

I remember distinctly the beginning of his senior year, in fact, blue white scrimmage, first pass he was thrown all season went through his hands and off his face. Dropped passes and rebounds were the norm. Often this was because of his trying to do too much. Once he realized his limitations and what he was good at, he aimed to excel at those points, and since he wasn't trying to do more than he was able, he was then phenomenally better at hanging on to the ball.

[captmojo]

I've a lot differing definitions for 'hands'. Is this meant to be related to...
A) catching the ball
B) dribbling the ball or basket driving
C) passing the ball
D) rebounding
E) all the above
I'm going with E but many, probably most, would think of A, and B gets a lot of mention. D, I consider to be a repetion of A, with jumping included.
So called 'Soft Hands' is just physiology. Using the related joints (wrists, elbows, shoulders) akin to shock absorbers, in order to lessen impact to the ball. This is trainable. Grip strength is trainable as well.
When it comes to dribbling-driving, an old coach had players 'Living With The Ball'. You had one. Everybody else had one. You took it with you everywhere you went, save Church. If you expected to have any possible chance at playing time, don't be seen by Coach without it. Sleep with it! Eat with it! Wash with it! It eventually becomes part of you.

[delfrio]

Not that it contributes much, but the best hands I've seen at Duke in my time belonged to Boozer. You could throw a pass anywhere in his general direction and he would get it. Not sure if that developed over the course of his career or if he came in like that.

[sagegrouse]

I've a lot differing definitions for 'hands'. Is this meant to be related to...
A) catching the ball
B) dribbling the ball or basket driving
C) passing the ball
D) rebounding
E) all the above
I'm going with E but many, probably most, would think of A, and B gets a lot of mention. D, I consider to be a repetion of A, with jumping included.
So called 'Soft Hands' is just physiology. Using the related joints (wrists, elbows, shoulders) akin to shock absorbers, in order to lessen impact to the ball. This is trainable. Grip strength is trainable as well.
When it comes to dribbling-driving, an old coach had players 'Living With The Ball'. You had one. Everybody else had one. You took it with you everywhere you went, save Church. If you expected to have any possible chance at playing time, don't be seen by Coach without it. Sleep with it! Eat with it! Wash with it! It eventually becomes part of you.

I think you have it. The term "good hands" is almost always applied to big men. Everyone assumes, and it is usually correct, that guards have good hands because they have the ball all the time. For the bigs, it's the ability to catch the ball smoothly in the post and grab rebounds without fumbling them away.

The one thing I would add to your "hands" list is "stealing the ball." Seth Curry, for example, has an incredible ability to grab the ball or poke it away. You can imagine that that was the only available tactic for the little kid in the backyard playing with his NBA star of a Dad and his future All-American big brother. [Scary phone call from the Curry family -- "Would you like to come over and play two-on-two with us. We need a fourth."]

sagegrouse

[DukeHoo]

I feel like hands are like foot speed/ running ability or jumping ability. There is an element of natural talent (some people are just born sprinters after all) but it can be improved through hard work. Constant exercise and drills can't turn someone with lousy hands into Brand, but perhaps it can turn someone with OK or bad hands in to someone with good hands.

[JMarley50]

Great points, and they're related to what I was going to bring up - confidence in general. Sometimes when players don't feel comfortable, they compensate by playing a little too hard, rather than playing smart. I think Miles still does this a lot... that he's focusing on jumping super high on a turnaround rather than bumping back his defender, that he's clenching his core and upper arms when receiving a pass rather than his forearms and fingers.

I think this is the main way "bad hands" can be changed, by just getting comfortable with where you are and what you do on the court, and understanding what's going on around you rather just reacting to it. Hopefully he'll get there.

I agree with this 100% I think its all about comfort and confidence in most cases. If you are athletic enough to get a college scholarship, then you definitely have the ability to catch a ball, until your mind gets in the way that is. Like you said I do think that adding strength and some of the other things that have been mentioned helps your comfort level considerably, therefore they are related.

I remember early in my freshman year in college, getting the ball in the paint was almost a nightmare. I would get all nervous, and uptight. There would be 5 million thoughts racing through my head. "Oh crap here comes the ball, I've got to hold my man, where's the help coming from, what kind of move am I going to make, don't drop this, be strong..." If you added a less than perfect pass, I was nearly screwed. If I managed to catch the pass, the process would start all over when it came to making a move.

With all of that thinking going on my reactions were way off. More often than not its a matter of over-reacting. As that season went on, I began getting a lot more comfortable and it became less and less of an issue.

[Lord Ash]

Hm, no one agrees that Mason's hands have looked a good deal more steady over the last few games? It has really seemed to me that he has come up with a lot of bobbled rebounds and contested balls that, in the past, he would not have grabbed.

[MChambers]

Hm, no one agrees that Mason's hands have looked a good deal more steady over the last few games? It has really seemed to me that he has come up with a lot of bobbled rebounds and contested balls that, in the past, he would not have grabbed.
I think he's improved (BTW, he's 10th nationally in defensive rebounding, according to Pomeroy, without taking into account the last two games), but I thought he was pretty good even before the recent stretch. I'm more worried about Miles and Ryan, neither of whom are doing that well on the boards.

[Lord Ash]

Hm, see Ryan I feel has a great natural "feel" for the ball, as in a mix of good strong hands, quick reactions, and a good understanding of where the rebounds will go. He might not have huge hops or big bulk, but... hey, you figure if Ryan is at 18 minutes a game and around 4 rebounds in that time, he is on par for around seven and a half rebounds per 36 minutes, which may not be Mason-like, but it is definitely Kyle-like, and all things considered I don't think that is so bad:)

[captmojo]

Hm, no one agrees that Mason's hands have looked a good deal more steady over the last few games? It has really seemed to me that he has come up with a lot of bobbled rebounds and contested balls that, in the past, he would not have grabbed.

I think it was in evidence last night, on the breakaway pass he took from Seth for an easy two points. I was glad to see he was hit with that pass, as he deserved it for hustling down the floor. When your big man gets out in transition like that, he deserves the chance for the scoring reward.