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View Full Version : MBB: Duke 74, Miami 63 Post-Game Thread



JBDuke
01-02-2011, 09:44 PM
Put your post-game thoughts here.

Duke76
01-02-2011, 09:48 PM
played pretty well. Smith was great, Dawkins was clutch in the 2nd half, love his attitude and Singler played his butt off without his shot going down and Kelly played as did Miles with a lot of energy

also, Kyrie was seen wriggling his toe by me and a couple of other posters...not sure of the significance...but good to see

JMarley50
01-02-2011, 09:49 PM
This was an eye opener. Definitely exposed our weaknesses. I'm just glad that a few of the guys showed up ready to play. They must learn from this one...:mad:

superdave
01-02-2011, 09:49 PM
I thought our big guys played excellent help-side D tonight. They cut off a lot of interior passes, blocked 8 shots and were a solid line the whole game. I know there's a tendency to want the alley oops, dunks and drop steps, but we need D out of the bigs the most and they brought it tonight.

One cause for concern with the help-side is that it often forces a big to leave their man unattended in order to help. Reggie Johnson was the beneficiary of that tonight, but it was not enough to close the gap between the teams.

Solid game to start the conference after a month of lesser competition.

delfrio
01-02-2011, 09:51 PM
Have to say, although most things didn't go his way, I love Miles' intensity these days. Things will start coming together offensively for him, but we really needed someone to get going in the middle (Kelly's doing a bit of that too).

superdave
01-02-2011, 09:51 PM
This was an eye opener. Definitely exposed our weaknesses. I'm just glad that a few of the guys showed up ready to play. They must learn from this one...:mad:

Got any specifics?

I thought our D was really good tonight, and the stats should back that up. Also, we made enough offensive adjustments to counter their zone which could have really bogged us down. I really dont have any huge complaints about what I saw tonight.

arnie
01-02-2011, 09:52 PM
played pretty well. Smith was great, Dawkins was clutch in the 2nd half, love his attitude and Singler played his butt off without his shot going down and Kelly played as did Miles with a lot of energy

also, Kyrie was seen wriggling his toe by me and a couple of other posters...not sure of the significance...but good to see

Beginning to understand why Kelly will play more - isn't as athletic as the Plumlees, but at least understands the offense and how to move the ball. Don't understand the lack of offensive development from either Plumlee; but somehow K can won an NC without offense inside. Maybe he can pull it off again.

Bluedevil114
01-02-2011, 09:53 PM
Nolan was incredible, Dre was steady and Kyle was consistent. Kelly brought energy and Curry was off tonight.

Mason needs to wake up quickly or I would give some of his minutes to Hairston.

jipops
01-02-2011, 09:54 PM
Not wanting to forget this was an ACC win which is always big, there were a number of not-like-so-much pieces in this game.

The defense was great with major exception of Reggie Johnson going 9-10 and averaging almost a point per minute. Yuck.

The offense has a few problems, especially against a zone which probably surprises a lot of people with our shooters. Thing is though, Miami can play an effective zone with their quickness but without a true pg we don't have a guy that can get inside of it. I think we're going to see this type of ugly offense from here on out. As long as we can get wins I guess it ultimately doesn't matter, but it ain't going to be pretty.

I was pleasantly surprised by the defense overall though. We hawked the ball and made everything difficult for them on the perimeter. Too bad we weren't able reward it as often as we would probably like to see.

Free throws were great too! 93%!

loran16
01-02-2011, 09:58 PM
Not to be a negative Nancy here, but this was quite a bit of a poor game. The team was outscored in the 2nd half, AT HOME, while trying its hardest against a much weaker Miami team.

The game had 68 Possessions. Duke scored 1.088 points per possession, Miami scored .926 PPP.

The D was mostly acceptable, though it let way too many rebounds slip form hands, and Miami had a few open 3s that it couldn't knock down. Still, against a really good Miami O, .926 PPP is quite good.

The O...not so much. The team's 1.088 PPP is way down from its season average and is UNACCEPTABLE against a Maimi team ranked #98 in team Defense. Some of this was a bunch of open shots being missed, but the team was also very very sloppy.

Outside of Nolan's own 11-0 Run, the team never put Miami away. And that was with Reggie Johnson out of the game. With Johnson, Duke may have been outscored. And that was all on the offensive end.

If we're the #1 team in the country, that can't happen.

We're a better team by a lot than Miami. Or we should be. Which means at home, we should put them away. We didn't do that tonight.

Saratoga2
01-02-2011, 09:59 PM
Nolan came up so big in this game. He handled the ball well, defended well and was the main force on offense. The guy had a terrific game. I also thought Dawkins has come a long way. He may be the most efficient scorer on the team now and he has diversified his game. There were several times when he was open that the team has to get him the ball. I think coach K pointed that out dduring a time out in the second half and Andre thedn hit a couple of key baskets.

Singler played well but it wasn't his best game, either shooting or on defense. He still is a key player on the floor and there will be many other games when he will bring his A game.

Kelly has also shown a great deal of development. He was active on defense, rebounding and shows that he has more touch inside than the Plumlees. It is nice to have three big men to clog up the middle. Unfortunately, neither of the Plumlees is showing much on offense inside. Miles is still having issues catching the ball under pressure as well. It would be great if both Mason and Miles develop their games as the season progresses.

Curry played solid defense but got into foul trouble and took a goose egg on the scoring end. I haven't looked at the stats yet, but I do think Seth took a number of shots and just didn't connect.

This game was a good test against a decent ACC team. The guys should feel great about the positive outcome.

Bob Green
01-02-2011, 10:03 PM
Andre Dawkins played a great game. He scored 16 points on nine shots. Add on four steals and two rebounds and that is a solid stat line.

JMarley50
01-02-2011, 10:08 PM
Got any specifics?

I thought our D was really good tonight, and the stats should back that up. Also, we made enough offensive adjustments to counter their zone which could have really bogged us down. I really dont have any huge complaints about what I saw tonight.

Our perimeter D was fairly good, but I don't really agree with you on the bigs playing good D. Ryan did ok I'll give him that. But I personally don't constitute blocking shots as sole definition of good post D. Their communication on ball screens was horrible. I don't know how many times Mason jumped out to hedge a ball screen and switched when our guard had gotten through. Then struggled relocating his man after he realized he wasn't supposed to switch. Miles did that a few times as well. I honestly feel like we got away with A LOT of fouls that were called blocks. The dunk that Miles blocked was an obvious foul, and he stands up pounding his chest...

Earlier in the game our guards struggled getting the ball into the post. They would have a good passing lane and then dribble themselves into poor position and try to pass it in, which resulted in several turnovers.

Our rebounding was not good at all in the first half, it got a little better in the second half.

Mason was on another planet all together.

SMO
01-02-2011, 10:09 PM
Not to be a negative Nancy here, but this was quite a bit of a poor game. The team was outscored in the 2nd half, AT HOME, while trying its hardest against a much weaker Miami team.

The game had 68 Possessions. Duke scored 1.088 points per possession, Miami scored .926 PPP.

The D was mostly acceptable, though it let way too many rebounds slip form hands, and Miami had a few open 3s that it couldn't knock down. Still, against a really good Miami O, .926 PPP is quite good.

The O...not so much. The team's 1.088 PPP is way down from its season average and is UNACCEPTABLE against a Maimi team ranked #98 in team Defense. Some of this was a bunch of open shots being missed, but the team was also very very sloppy.

Outside of Nolan's own 11-0 Run, the team never put Miami away. And that was with Reggie Johnson out of the game. With Johnson, Duke may have been outscored. And that was all on the offensive end.

If we're the #1 team in the country, that can't happen.

We're a better team by a lot than Miami. Or we should be. Which means at home, we should put them away. We didn't do that tonight.

I'm curious to see if Coach K agrees with your assessment that the O was unacceptable in his post game comments.

4decadedukie
01-02-2011, 10:10 PM
This close-to-embarrassing almost-home-loss to a lower-half ACC team should at least silence all the ridiculousness re Duke going undefeated, Duke being the presumptive National Champion, and so forth. We have weaknesses, some significant, the critical second-third of the season is underway, and we better blow Maryland out this week to ensure legitimate ACC contenders do not develop a "they are overrated, we can defeat them" attitude. Turnovers, rebounding, defensively created offense, transition defense, missed easy buckets, and the like MUST be immediately resolved, or this is season will evolve into one of disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential. I anticipate Coach K will be quite clear regarding such deficiencies, the vital need for their prompt correction, and the requirement for court/locker-room leadership. My concern is that it is VERY late in the season for such substantial, team-wide assessment and resurrection. Nolan and Andre played well, Ryan's aggregate improvement is noticeable, but several key players under-achieved this evening; I truly hate to make this appraisal, but the time has come for determined, tenacious leadership and performance (especially unremitting defense, in every phase of every game).

SMO
01-02-2011, 10:14 PM
This close-to-embarrassing almost-home-loss to a lower-half ACC team should at least silence all the ridiculousness re Duke going undefeated, Duke being the presumptive National Champion, and so forth. We have weaknesses, some significant, the critical second-third of the season is underway, and we better blow Maryland out this week to ensure legitimate ACC contenders do not develop a "they are overrated, we can defeat them" attitude. Turnovers, rebounding, defensively created offense, transition defense, missed easy buckets, and the like MUST be immediately resolved, or this is season will evolve into one of disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential. I anticipate Coach K will be quite clear regarding such deficiencies, the vital need for their prompt correction, and the requirement for court/locker-room leadership. My concern is that it is VERY late in the season for such substantial, team-wide assessment and resurrection.

My sarcasm meter must be adjusting to the 2011 transition...are you serious or kidding?

jv001
01-02-2011, 10:17 PM
My sarcasm meter must be adjusting to the 2011 transition...are you serious or kidding?

I'm wondering the same thing? And it's VERY late in the season. Huh? Go Duke!

Duke76
01-02-2011, 10:19 PM
This close-to-embarrassing almost-home-loss to a lower-half ACC team should at least silence all the ridiculousness re Duke going undefeated, Duke being the presumptive National Champion, and so forth. We have weaknesses, some significant, the critical second-third of the season is underway, and we better blow Maryland out this week to ensure legitimate ACC contenders do not develop a "they are overrated, we can defeat them" attitude. Turnovers, rebounding, defensively created offense, transition defense, missed easy buckets, and the like MUST be immediately resolved, or this is season will evolve into one of disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential. I anticipate Coach K will be quite clear regarding such deficiencies, the vital need for their prompt correction, and the requirement for court/locker-room leadership. My concern is that it is VERY late in the season for such substantial, team-wide assessment and resurrection.


Funny, how we can have such different opinions of the same game....this opponent was a lot better than Elon and UNC G. Did you think we looked better then than now. Not me, I think we played better tonight than against those two teams....

superdave
01-02-2011, 10:19 PM
This close-to-embarrassing almost-home-loss to a lower-half ACC team should at least silence all the ridiculousness re Duke going undefeated, Duke being the presumptive National Champion, and so forth. We have weaknesses, some significant, the critical second-third of the season is underway, and we better blow Maryland out this week to ensure legitimate ACC contenders do not develop a "they are overrated, we can defeat them" attitude. Turnovers, rebounding, defensively created offense, transition defense, missed easy buckets, and the like MUST be immediately resolved, or this is season will evolve into one of disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential. I anticipate Coach K will be quite clear regarding such deficiencies, the vital need for their prompt correction, and the requirement for court/locker-room leadership. My concern is that it is VERY late in the season for such substantial, team-wide assessment and resurrection.

I'm sorry but at what point were we close-to-embarrassed? I dont think the outcome was in doubt. Did they cut it to less than 9 in the 2nd half? We were two steps ahead of them the whole game and guys gave a really good effort even though it was not perfect. We had a major change at pg a month ago and this is the best team we've played since then. Our D was really good at pushing them out of their offense and if a couple more open looks fell, this would have been a yawner.

JMarley50
01-02-2011, 10:20 PM
This close-to-embarrassing almost-home-loss to a lower-half ACC team should at least silence all the ridiculousness re Duke going undefeated, Duke being the presumptive National Champion, and so forth. We have weaknesses, some significant, the critical second-third of the season is underway, and we better blow Maryland out this week to ensure legitimate ACC contenders do not develop a "they are overrated, we can defeat them" attitude. Turnovers, rebounding, defensively created offense, transition defense, missed easy buckets, and the like MUST be immediately resolved, or this is season will evolve into one of disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential. I anticipate Coach K will be quite clear regarding such deficiencies, the vital need for their prompt correction, and the requirement for court/locker-room leadership. My concern is that it is VERY late in the season for such substantial, team-wide assessment and resurrection. Nolan and Andre played well, Ryan's aggregate improvement is noticeable, but several key players under-achieved this evening; I truly hate to make this appraisal, but the time has come for determined, tenacious leadership and performance (especially unremitting defense, in every phase of every game).

It appears that you watched the same ball game I did. I agree 100%.

superdave
01-02-2011, 10:21 PM
It appears that you watched the same ball game I did. I agree 100%.

I dont agree....please explain your line of reasoning?

Bob Green
01-02-2011, 10:22 PM
I'm not happy we were outscored in the 2nd half, but overall I thought it was a solid victory. Let's take a look at the last four games vs. Miami:

3/13/2010: Duke 77, Miami 74
2/17/2010: Duke 81, Miami 74
2/7/2009: Duke 78, Miami 75
2/20/2008: Miami 96, Duke 95

Duke beat Miami tonight by double-digits. A Miami team that has played Duke tough over the past couple of years! I think we all need to take a couple deep breaths and count to twenty.

Duvall
01-02-2011, 10:25 PM
God help this board the next time Duke *actually* loses a game.

SMO
01-02-2011, 10:25 PM
It appears that you watched the same ball game I did. I agree 100%.


I dont agree....please explain your line of reasoning?

At least explain the "almost-home-loss" part. At what point did Duke almost lose this game?

I get the funny feeling people are just being silly for the sake of stirring the pot.

sagegrouse
01-02-2011, 10:25 PM
Impressions of the game:

1. Great defensive effort by Duke. Miami had to get the ball to Reggie Johnson or just throw up a prayer.

2. As well as I have ever seen Nolan play: this was an NPOY performance.

3. Much needed offense from Andre and Ryan. Both made some terrific plays.

4. For Miami, I was super-impressed with Johnson. From the comments on the Board, I was expecting another Nigel Dixon, the massive Seminole from a few years ago. This guy has the physique of Elton Brand -- even looks like him -- except he is several inches taller. While he is not as skilled as Elton, even as a freshman, he is plenty skilled. How did Haith sneak that guy out of North Carolina?

5. Kudos to Kyle Singler, who had a reasonable looking haircut for once, although it seemed to deteriorate later. Kyle had an off-night shooting but otherwise was very effective, and if we had needed him, Kyle could have scored a bunch in the second half.

6. Good, heady games by Los Plumlees, although we really need them to finish around the basket.

7. I thought we took care of the ball in the 2nd half, although ESPN implies that Duke had four TOs and Miami had only three after halftime. Wasn't it nine each at the break? Anyway, I thought Miami had a ton after intermission and Duke had very few.

For those disappointed in the final margin, K coached to get the win, not to beat the spread. Got a problem with that? Anyway, we gave Johnson a lot of room at the end to avoid fouls, and Miami made a couple of ridiculous threes in the last minute.

sagegrouse

loran16
01-02-2011, 10:27 PM
I'm not happy we were outscored in the 2nd half, but overall I thought it was a solid victory. Let's take a look at the last four games vs. Miami:

3/13/2010: Duke 77, Miami 74
2/17/2010: Duke 81, Miami 74
2/7/2009: Duke 78, Miami 75
2/20/2008: Miami 96, Duke 95

Duke beat Miami tonight by double-digits. A Miami team that has played Duke tough over the past couple of years! I think we all need to take a couple deep breaths and count to twenty.

Except that you omit where those games took place. The first 2010 game took place on the road, the 2nd was a neutral court game (ACC Tourney). The Loss was also on the road.

So Really only the 09 game is comparable in circumstance...and that was a worse Duke team (#10 Pomeroy Team) and a better Miami Team (#40 Pomeroy).

You can't compare. THIS TEAM at HOME should have blown Miami out of the water and won by over 20.

weezie
01-02-2011, 10:27 PM
Maybe I'm still reeling from New Year's eve hooch but I thought we were fine! First game of the ACC folks, big old target on our collective head? Come on already! Considering the juggling going on in the rotation and the speed at which that game was run at both ends, we were gosh darned good (I hope ol'Roy doesn't try to get me on copyrights.)

Ryan was superb; man, he's developing Singler's knack of learning where to "be", Kyle is making some shots, those softie fade hooks, that are a thing of beauty. Considering, of course, he's being tripled most of the time he gets within sniffing distance of the bucket. Smith, our senior, holy smokes, just sit back and admire the master at work.

It will be swell when the hurricane beats the hole, won't it?! Gminski was lol funny when he remarked on Reggie's slowest move to the basket in history, but Miami is a tough bunch and the hole won't be able to guard them.

The long running "Overacting Lessons from Karl Hesse" is just about dead, isn't it?! Man, that guy just makes me itch for a wiffle ball bat.

MB in MD
01-02-2011, 10:28 PM
I've got no complaints about our defense this game. It was geared to stop their guards and we stopped their guards, both out on the perimeter and with our bigs helping on penetration. Some of our bigs were late on rotations and we were occasionally exploited by good extra passes inside, and Reggie Johnson knows how to score around the bucket, (something our bigs could take a lesson from), but you always have to give up something. True, some of the extra passes led to open threes that were missed, but on balance we did well.

Our offense was ugly, but our offense against a zone almost always is ugly. We're a good shooting team, but not a good zone offense team--not the same thing at all. We had 9 assists on 26 field goals, and since Nolan had 5 assists that pretty much means that once it left his hands it was either a shot or a turnover. That's not offense.

jipops
01-02-2011, 10:28 PM
I'm not happy we were outscored in the 2nd half, but overall I thought it was a solid victory. Let's take a look at the last four games vs. Miami:

3/13/2010: Duke 77, Miami 74
2/17/2010: Duke 81, Miami 74
2/7/2009: Duke 78, Miami 75
2/20/2008: Miami 96, Duke 95

Duke beat Miami tonight by double-digits. A Miami team that has played Duke tough over the past couple of years! I think we all need to take a couple deep breaths and count to twenty.

Thank you for chiming with perspective. I didn't get the feel that tonight was very good all-around performance but it appears this is the best performance we have had against Miami in quite some time.

I think it's also important to point out that we held both of Miami's talented, double-figure scoring guards to 4-13 shooting each.

mike88
01-02-2011, 10:29 PM
Having just got back from the game, I had a much different impression (as did Coach K): I thought this was a really good win against a good (not great) ACC team. Duke exected its defensive game plan really well - limiting 3's and keeping Miami's guards from being major factors. Johnson got his, but the rest of the team didn't hurt us. Those of you who see failure if we don't blow out teams at home are setting yourselves up for lots of angst this season . . .I am content to celebrate our first ACC win and look forward to the team's continued improvement in the post-Kyrie injury phase.

JMarley50
01-02-2011, 10:32 PM
I dont agree....please explain your line of reasoning?

I did respond to your request for specifics once before but here you go again....

We have players showing up in lala land in January for one. It is "VERY" late in the season for that. It is also "VERY" late in the season to have post players that cannot hit a 3 ft open bank shot, and who also resort to a defended fade away jumper in the paint, when he could have had an easy chip shot. We couldn't stop their one post player who was in foul trouble most of the game. We relied on one player who had a really good game to win by 11 against a team we should have beat by at least 20.

Someone said that it was a few missed shots away from being a yawner...It was also a few made shots away from being a loss, and if a few of those blocks were called fouls like they should have been, it could have been a loss. If both of those happen you are right...it would have been a yawner (for Miami fans).

roywhite
01-02-2011, 10:33 PM
Except that you omit where those games took place. The first 2010 game took place on the road, the 2nd was a neutral court game (ACC Tourney). The Loss was also on the road.

So Really only the 09 game is comparable in circumstance...and that was a worse Duke team (#10 Pomeroy Team) and a better Miami Team (#40 Pomeroy).

You can't compare. THIS TEAM at HOME should have blown Miami out of the water and won by over 20.

Wow, what a sad way to look at the game.

A conference win by double digits, first game in the ACC and first against good competition since the loss of Kyrie, and you're focused on the game not being a blowout?

Great performance by Nolan, clutch offense from Andre, good overall defense.

Good way to start the conference season.

dukeballboy88
01-02-2011, 10:33 PM
In my opinion, Miami is a top 5 team in the ACC and could be better but they are poorly coached. They were active in the zone and this team is going to see alot of zone I think. I Duke could get a big man to command the ball on the block and make things happen when they get it. It would make our shooters alot better and it would take pressure off Kyle and Nolan.


With or without Kyrie, I think Duke still goes undefeated in the ACC cause the conference is horrible outside of Duke.

OldPhiKap
01-02-2011, 10:34 PM
First tough opponent in weeks.

Conference game.

Games are either wins or losses -- no extra points for how you looked doing it. This ain't art class.


I'll take the win and move on. Great game by Andre and Nolan.

Wiggle that toe, Kyrie.


(Edit: Roy, I commented on your post but it got sent before I could sign it. Spot on)

Bob Green
01-02-2011, 10:34 PM
You can't compare. THIS TEAM at HOME should have blown Miami out of the water and won by over 20.

Glass half full/Glass half empty. We just have a different outlook on life.

gep
01-02-2011, 10:36 PM
.....

The defense was great with major exception of Reggie Johnson going 9-10 and averaging almost a point per minute. Yuck.

.....

I was pleasantly surprised by the defense overall though. We hawked the ball and made everything difficult for them on the perimeter. Too bad we weren't able reward it as often as we would probably like to see.
.....



As Larry Bird said when MJ entered the NBA, let him get is points... just don't let the rest of the team best us. MJ got 63 (IIRC), and Chicago lost.

Johnson was a "load". But the rest of the team was held in check, until the end with the 3's... too little, too late:cool:

ice-9
01-02-2011, 10:37 PM
It may not be a great win, but it's a solid one.

This is just the second time Duke has lost a half this season -- the first was against Marquette earlier on.

We didn't look like a #1 team that is head and shoulders above everyone and one expected to go undefeated, but we still looked like the best team in the ACC and a contender for a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament.

Nolan was incredible tonight, Kyle wasn't his best but still contributed, Andre and Kelly were good. The Plumlees were solid if not spectacular. Curry was really the only player who went missing. But this is a Duke team that needs Nolan and Kyle to have good games, and for at least one other player to score in the >15 point range. Kyrie used to be that guy, but now we'll need someone else to be able to consistently fill that role.

BleedsP287
01-02-2011, 10:39 PM
Nolan was a beast tonight. Dre really stepped up too which was great. But Mason and Miles need to find another gear. Seems like they are always a step slow with the ball. That's one thing I like about Josh, while still learning, he is quick to get the shot off when he gets it, whereas it seems Miles and Mason always end up shimmying around until the defense arrives. I hope those guys can find a groove, we need them now. It won't be getting any easier.

superdave
01-02-2011, 10:40 PM
As Larry Bird said when MJ entered the NBA, let him get is points... just don't let the rest of the team best us. MJ got 63 (IIRC), and Chicago lost.

Johnson was a "load". But the rest of the team was held in check, until the end with the 3's... too little, too late:cool:

Half of Reggie's points came from his defender rotating (correctly rotating, at that) to help out on another man. The other half came from a solid effort from a guy who knows how to finish at the rim. Did you see him drive right at Mason's chest? Impressive skills if he can stay on the court. But he was not going to beat us all by himself.

-jk
01-02-2011, 10:41 PM
I thought we had a reasonably good game for having played so little - and played no one of consequence - over the last month. Pom has Miami as the 56th best team out there.

We took a solid team and beat them comfortably. We out rebounded them. We out shot them, even if we didn't get into the bonus until the very end. (And our free-throw defense was fabulous!)

We have weaknesses, but that's what college ball is about: the journey. This was our first real game without Kyrie. We have two seniors any team would love to have. Beyond them, we have one junior and the rest underclassmen for a supporting cast in development. If we're really lucky, we'll get Kyrie back but I'm not counting on it.

This particular game doesn't worry me too much. So long as everyone continues to work hard on getting better, I think we'll have a fine year. (I won't go so far as to predict what happens in March; one-and-done leaves way too much to chance!)

-jk

SMO
01-02-2011, 10:43 PM
Glass half full/Glass half empty. We just have a different outlook on life.

You got that right. Dude is probably still reeling from the fact that Duke only beat Butler BY TWO last April!

loran16
01-02-2011, 10:46 PM
You got that right. Dude is probably still reeling from the fact that Duke only beat Butler BY TWO last April!

Err can be fair to those with dissenting opinions? The people complaining about this performance are not looking to find fault with Duke just because and are not complaining about winning.

What people are pointing out is that this performance isn't necessarily what you'd hope for, and thus if it was to continue, could come back to bite Duke in the future.

No one cares about the point margin in the last game of the season. But people can care about performance up to that point, because it has bearing on the rest of the season. Don't be insulting.

Saratoga2
01-02-2011, 10:47 PM
I thought we had a reasonably good game for having played so little - and played no one of consequence - over the last month. Pom has Miami as the 56th best team out there.

We took a solid team and beat them comfortably. We out rebounded them. We out shot them, even if we didn't get into the bonus until the very end. (And our free-throw defense was fabulous!)

We have weaknesses, but that's what college ball is about: the journey. This was our first real game without Kyrie. We have two seniors any team would love to have. Beyond them, we have one junior and the rest underclassmen for a supporting cast in development. If we're really lucky, we'll get Kyrie back but I'm not counting on it.

This particular game doesn't worry me too much. So long as everyone continues to work hard on getting better, I think we'll have a fine year. (I won't go so far as to predict what happens in March; one-and-done leaves way too much to chance!)

-jk

I thought they had 41 rebounds to our 39.

Reilly
01-02-2011, 10:47 PM
Maybe I'm still reeling from New Year's eve hooch but I thought we were fine! ....

Good use of the word hoo(t)ch. [There are some variances in spelling.] Just mere use of the word (not talking about use of the product) takes a conversation to a less serious, more fun place. Thanks.

camion
01-02-2011, 10:48 PM
Wow, what a sad way to look at the game.

A conference win by double digits, first game in the ACC and first against good competition since the loss of Kyrie, and you're focused on the game not being a blowout?

Great performance by Nolan, clutch offense from Andre, good overall defense.

Good way to start the conference season.

That pretty much sums up my feelings.

We played solid against a good, not great, team. The game was never in doubt after Nolan went off in the first half. It was really a pretty easy win. I'm happy with it.

JMarley50
01-02-2011, 10:51 PM
I'm personally not mad that we didn't blow them out. I would have been completely satisfied with a 5 point win, if they played well and we played better than they did. But they didn't play well, and neither did we. You guys keep talking about this is a top 5 team in the ACC. So what? Where do they stand in the country? Last time I checked our goal isn't to win the ACC only. They gave us a very tough game.

If that were say Syracuse in the Tourney we would have gotten spanked bad. Miami's suspect zone D gave us fits when they ran it. Image what a Jimmy Boheim zone would do to us. I bet he'd run a 3-2 zone, force us to pass it inside, and we'd be up a certain creek without a paddle at that point because we can't score in the paint unless Kyrie is throwing lobs. I won't even get into us trying to stop someone like Jared Sullinger from having 30 and 15.

I know its our first conference game and everything, and its great we came away with a win. But we have issues. If you guys honestly feel like the team we watched play TONIGHT is capable of making a push for the final four, you are going to be extremely disappointed.

4decadedukie
01-02-2011, 10:51 PM
I am entirely serious. My long-held view is all seasons have three segments: (1) the tune-up season in November and December, where teams meld, assess and resolve their problems, and prepare for the vital conference schedule; (2) the ACCC season, which is a crucible and which largely determines post-season tournament successes (through seeding, as much as any other factor); and (3) the ACC and NCAA Tournaments.

When Duke (especially this year, with all the "repeat Championship hyperbole") at home and in its ACC opener, does not decisively put away a second tier ACC opponent, it can -- I am NOT saying it will -- create corrosive doubts in our locker room as well as real optimism in our opponents'. Even worse, many of the deficiencies I observed this evening may not simply be those of a single poor game -- they may extend far deeper.

I earnestly hope I am wrong, I ardently hope the focus, the defensive intensity, the selfless teamwork that defeated MSU, Butler, Marquette, K State, Oregon, and Bradley reappear, and I sincerely hope our team plays to its fulll potential. Last year was marvelous because Duke overachieved, playing very close to it's complete potential. Every team that reaches a high competitive level -- let's say Final Four -- must do so. We shall see if this incredibly talented Duke club can do so. Tonight we certainly did not, and that is precisely what concerns me.

Newton_14
01-02-2011, 10:53 PM
Just got back in from the game and a bit shocked at all of the negative nellies. Good grief. We are not going to win every game by 30 points. FWIW, Coach K thought we played a really solid game, and other than our guys missing a few open looks he was extremely pleased.

Our "terrible" PG scored 28 points and totally shut down what some are calling the best backcourt in the ACC now that Irving is out. (I don't agree and apparently neither does Nolan).

That guy "lost on another planet" named Mason pulled down 10 boards and blocked 4 shots. Miles played good defense and rebounded well as did Kelly. This was a typical hard fought conference game. The intensity in the building was high. We made it a point to take away Miami's strength, which is Grant and Scott, and 3 Point shooting.

What we gave up to do that was inside baskets to Johnson, most of which were catches after our big shut off the driving lane of Scott/Grant. Johnson played well, tip your hat to him, but our bigs in no way played poorly tonight.

If we make a few more of the open looks we got, this game is a total blowout. As it was, we held a double-digit lead most of the 2nd half. Given this was our first real test without Kyrie, I thought our guys performed well. It wasn't perfect, but for a conference opener against one of the teams that will battle for a upperlevel finish in the ACC, it was a solid performance. We never allowed Miami to make a serious run in the 2nd half, so not sure how some feel we "almost lost" this game.

Mcluhan
01-02-2011, 11:00 PM
ACC basketball, folks. It's competitive.

We're pretty used to what Duke looks like against the UNC-G's and Elon's of the world. This is what we look like on an off night against a better team. Pretty firmly in control.

There's nothing that we better do now OR ELSE WE'LL SPIN INTO A VORTEX OF DISASTER. We should working on things. New things, old things. Coach K probably agrees.

The Plumlees are destined to be this season's enigmas. But our committee of three was decent tonight.

Nolan is quite underrated.

Waynne
01-02-2011, 11:03 PM
Nolan was incredible tonight, Kyle wasn't his best but still contributed, Andre and Kelly were good. The Plumlees were solid if not spectacular. Curry was really the only player who went missing. But this is a Duke team that needs Nolan and Kyle to have good games, and for at least one other player to score in the >15 point range. Kyrie used to be that guy, but now we'll need someone else to be able to consistently fill that role.

Last year we had the "Big Three" and this year without Kyrie we have the "Big Two". I agree we need a reliable third scorer, and it's beginning to appear to me that that player may be Dawkins. He made some very nice moves to the basket tonight and is showing he can hit pull-up twos or go to the rim when the lane is open. I wish he would flush the ball with two hands instead of trying for highlight reel one handers, but who's complaining?:)

-jk
01-02-2011, 11:04 PM
I thought they had 41 rebounds to our 39.

Could be. ESPN stats aren't terribly reliable.

-jk

gumbomoop
01-02-2011, 11:04 PM
Here I import my comments from the Phase III thread:


I'm looking especially at these things:

1. Nolan seems very, very confident. Will he be in the conversation, a month from now, re 1st team AA?

2. I'm hoping to see a semi-breakout game, in the next 5 or 6, from each of our 3 main bigs: Ryan, Miles, and Mason.

3. A second key is a strong game from either Andre or Seth.

4. Kyle and Nolan - One or the other must be the best player on the floor for us to win the close games. Doesn't matter which.

5. Duke will win almost [and probably] all close games in which:

a. either Kyle or Nolan is superb, and
b. either Seth or Andre scores 12-15 points and plays good D, and
c. either Ryan or Mason or Miles gets near a double-double [or, as an alternate, collectively they produce, say, 18 and 18, with 3-4 blocks], and
d. Duke plays every play on D

Although I wouldn't ... quite ... call this a "close game," I'll concede that it was a bit closer than I expected, perhaps because I forgot that Miami has played Duke very tough in recent seasons.

Thus, although I wouldn't ... quite ... say that my own "keys to victory" absolutely had to be produced to get this win, I'd also say that the keys did in fact happen tonight.

Namely:

1. Nolan was in fact superb. To say that he played with confidence this evening would be an understatement.
2. Andre scored 16 [and both he and Seth played good D].
3. Ryan, Miles, and Mason together had 16 and 22, with 8 blocks - close enough [for me] to 18/18/4. This wasn't ... quite ... a breakout game for Ryan, but it was close enough to "semi" to be nice to see. Ryan's physical gifts don't match those of the MPs, but he's got better instincts, so he gets a lot more from his solid talents than do they. Smart game. He should garner a nice comment or two from K.
4. Duke played [almost] every play on D. I'd guess only a couple of times was K, uh, perturbed.

chrisheery
01-02-2011, 11:07 PM
Just want to point out that Duke, as a team, missed 6 wide open threes by my count. If they shoot 50% on those, as they normally do (I'm talking wide open shots by Dre, Seth, and Kyle), Duke wins by 17. Wouldn't everyone feel better then? I think they would. It is just funny how a few missed shots that do not affect the outcome of the game sway the opinion of the fans about how the team played. Essentially, you are saying the team played poorly because they missed open shots. That is only one aspect of the game, and it can be a big one at times, but Duke did a lot of things well tonight and will make those shots most of the time. So, fear not.

dukelifer
01-02-2011, 11:08 PM
Duke played okay tonight but the start of the ACC season is always tough and Duke has been feasting on pretty weak opponents of late. You get tough games every night out in the ACC. The Plumlee boys did a fine job on the boards but continue to struggle around the hoop. Again Kelly was a big spark and did a lot of little things all night. Andre is really a weapon. He is shooting the ball from all over the floor. He is critical for this team to get on big runs. It will be hard to keep him off the court. Nolan put the team on his back tonight as a senior captain needs to do from time to time. Kyle's poor shooting kept this from being a blowout- he made Miami's zone look better than it was. He missed a lot of open shots. Without Kyrie, Duke is going to have a hard time getting huge margin of victories- but I will take a double digit ACC win any night.

4decadedukie
01-02-2011, 11:16 PM
One of our participants just awarded a "red" rating for my post #15 (to this thread), with only the comment of "sarcasm;" naturally, this negative report was unsigned. The fact is, I sincerely believe -- although it greatly troubles me -- exactly what I indicated in post #15; further, when I was requested to elaborate my rationale by at least two participants, I did so in post #47.

Therefore, we have an unattributed red criticism, with no explanation other than a single word ("sarcasm"), despite a (I believe) legitimate (although certainly arguable) analysis in #15, and an additional elaboration in #47. Have we reached then point where sincerely held and reasonable opinions cannot be expressed? In my value system, this is plainly cowardly.

DukeDevilDeb
01-02-2011, 11:16 PM
I'm personally not mad that we didn't blow them out. I would have been completely satisfied with a 5 point win, if they played well and we played better than they did. But they didn't play well, and neither did we. You guys keep talking about this is a top 5 team in the ACC. So what? Where do they stand in the country? Last time I checked our goal isn't to win the ACC only. They gave us a very tough game.

If that were say Syracuse in the Tourney we would have gotten spanked bad. Miami's suspect zone D gave us fits when they ran it. Image what a Jimmy Boheim zone would do to us. I bet he'd run a 3-2 zone, force us to pass it inside, and we'd be up a certain creek without a paddle at that point because we can't score in the paint unless Kyrie is throwing lobs. I won't even get into us trying to stop someone like Jared Sullinger from having 30 and 15.

I know its our first conference game and everything, and its great we came away with a win. But we have issues. If you guys honestly feel like the team we watched play TONIGHT is capable of making a push for the final four, you are going to be extremely disappointed.

...about last year's team? Expect them to be in the Final Four? Win an NC?

It may be very late in the "season" (whatever that means) but it certainly isn't very late in the ACC season, given that this was our first game.

I thought some of the problems in the middle had to do with the referees who allowed Reggie to plant himself in the paint and to have two pivot feet! I thought Mason looked scared of him at the beginning of the game, though Miles and Ryan didn't.

And rebounding... we weren't outrebounded by them. We had 37; they had 32.

I am surprised not to see more comments about the officiating. Those of us in Cameron were in shock over so many Miami no-calls and so many dinky Duke calls. And although you probably couldn't see it on TV, at every media time out, one of the refs was talking with the Miami coaching staff... glad they were friendly! ;)

gep
01-02-2011, 11:18 PM
..... I wish he would flush the ball with two hands instead of trying for highlight reel one handers, but who's complaining?:)

Is it possible that at his height, a 2-hand dunk is very hard? (wondering out loud... No idea otherwise)

JMarley50
01-02-2011, 11:20 PM
Just got back in from the game and a bit shocked at all of the negative nellies. Good grief. We are not going to win every game by 30 points. FWIW, Coach K thought we played a really solid game, and other than our guys missing a few open looks he was extremely pleased.

Our "terrible" PG scored 28 points and totally shut down what some are calling the best backcourt in the ACC now that Irving is out. (I don't agree and apparently neither does Nolan).

That guy "lost on another planet" named Mason pulled down 10 boards and blocked 4 shots. Miles played good defense and rebounded well as did Kelly. This was a typical hard fought conference game. The intensity in the building was high. We made it a point to take away Miami's strength, which is Grant and Scott, and 3 Point shooting.

What we gave up to do that was inside baskets to Johnson, most of which were catches after our big shut off the driving lane of Scott/Grant. Johnson played well, tip your hat to him, but our bigs in no way played poorly tonight.

If we make a few more of the open looks we got, this game is a total blowout. As it was, we held a double-digit lead most of the 2nd half. Given this was our first real test without Kyrie, I thought our guys performed well. It wasn't perfect, but for a conference opener against one of the teams that will battle for a upperlevel finish in the ACC, it was a solid performance. We never allowed Miami to make a serious run in the 2nd half, so not sure how some feel we "almost lost" this game.

That same lost guy also had 4 turnovers, and was 1 of 5 from the field. 2 of those misses were from 3 ft and the other one started at 3 ft and ended at 10 ft due to god awful fade away, and then there was that air balled jumper that he still hasn't realized he does not need to be shooting. He wanted rebounds alright. So bad that Nolan corralled one and with only Seth and Nolan standing there Mason reaches in and tries to fight the ball away from Nolan, not realizing it was his teammate and nearly knocked him out of bounds in the process. Nolan passed the ball to Seth as he fell out of bounds then proceeded to glare at Mason. He also wandered around lost numerous times on both offense and defense. Johnson just made him look like....well I'm not even going there.

What you forget is I am a Duke fan like you, I bleed blue. I love these guys as much as all of you do. But that don't mean we should be like the parents who always see their kid as the best on the team, when they truthfully barely made the team. When these guys play great, I praise, when they play bad I am critical. I don't enjoy it, I would rather they play great personally. I am not trying to "bad mouth or bash" them. Just merely trying to discuss the weaknesses and problems that I saw in my Devils tonight, with people who love Duke basketball just as much as myself.

In fact I can make another post with all of the positives that I saw if you'd like. If it somehow balances out the negatives. But the positives mostly came from the guys that always do those things. So no big surprise. Nothing we haven't applauded them on hundreds of times before.

El_Diablo
01-02-2011, 11:21 PM
Just got back in from the game and a bit shocked at all of the negative nellies. Good grief. We are not going to win every game by 30 points. FWIW, Coach K thought we played a really solid game, and other than our guys missing a few open looks he was extremely pleased.

Our "terrible" PG scored 28 points and totally shut down what some are calling the best backcourt in the ACC now that Irving is out. (I don't agree and apparently neither does Nolan).

That guy "lost on another planet" named Mason pulled down 10 boards and blocked 4 shots. Miles played good defense and rebounded well as did Kelly. This was a typical hard fought conference game. The intensity in the building was high. We made it a point to take away Miami's strength, which is Grant and Scott, and 3 Point shooting.

What we gave up to do that was inside baskets to Johnson, most of which were catches after our big shut off the driving lane of Scott/Grant. Johnson played well, tip your hat to him, but our bigs in no way played poorly tonight.

If we make a few more of the open looks we got, this game is a total blowout. As it was, we held a double-digit lead most of the 2nd half. Given this was our first real test without Kyrie, I thought our guys performed well. It wasn't perfect, but for a conference opener against one of the teams that will battle for a upperlevel finish in the ACC, it was a solid performance. We never allowed Miami to make a serious run in the 2nd half, so not sure how some feel we "almost lost" this game.

I agree completely. Instead of getting hung up on how weak Miami is supposed to be, let's give them credit for playing well tonight. They attacked the rim consistently and had some good ball movement in the lane. Johnson was a beast, displaying a number of strong post moves and finishing on contested shots. They hit a couple threes at the end to make the game seem closer than it really was. They held onto the ball pretty well, turning it over only 12 times.

We missed a number of open shots early. Other than that, I think we played okay. Held them to 24 in the first half. Overcame some ridiculous officiating. Outrebounded Miami despite the fact that they crashed the boards hard on the offensive end.

To those who think the rest of the ACC is just going to drop trou and accept what's coming to them, you might want to adjust your expectations...there will be a number of tough games coming up. And stop believing the media hype about how weak the ACC is this year. If Miami plays like this every game, they're a tournament team...no doubt about it. Their problem will be consistency and focus, not talent.

There are certainly some things to continue working on, but come on...it's January 2nd. At this point last year, we were still a week away from losing to GT and four weeks away from getting completely steamrolled by Georgetown. We are not peaking yet, but I'm fine with that as long as we make adjustments and continue to improve.

roywhite
01-02-2011, 11:23 PM
One of our participants just awarded a "red" rating for my post #15 (to this thread), with only the comment of "sarcasm;" naturally, this negative report was unsigned. The fact is, I sincerely believe -- although it greatly troubles me -- exactly what I indicated in post #15; further, when I was requested to elaborate my rationale by at least two participants, I did so in post #47.

Therefore, we have an unattributed red criticism, with no explanation other than a single word ("sarcasm"), despite a (I believe) legitimate analysis in #15, and an additional elaboration in #47. Have we reached then point where sincerely held and reasonable opinions cannot be expressed? In my value system, this is plainly cowardly.

I sent that comment.

I couldn't believe your post. I was hoping it was a poor attempt at sarcasm.

moonpie23
01-02-2011, 11:25 PM
what did y'all expect? this is acc play....all the talk of the acc being "down" or "weak" make you think we were gonna just walk all over them?


please..


it was a good game with some clunky parts... our team did well on many levels..

the thing that stuck out to me was our poor ball handling under the basket....how many rebounds were just clumsily lost out of bounds?


regardless, our guys played stout........

next game...

Newton_14
01-02-2011, 11:34 PM
That same lost guy also had 4 turnovers, and was 1 of 5 from the field. 2 of those misses were from 3 ft and the other one started at 3 ft and ended at 10 ft due to god awful fade away, and then there was that air balled jumper that he still hasn't realized he does not need to be shooting. He wanted rebounds alright. So bad that Nolan corralled one and with only Seth and Nolan standing there Mason reaches in and tries to fight the ball away from Nolan, not realizing it was his teammate and nearly knocked him out of bounds in the process. Nolan passed the ball to Seth as he fell out of bounds then proceeded to glare at Mason. He also wandered around lost numerous times on both offense and defense. Johnson just made him look like....well I'm not even going there.

What you forget is I am a Duke fan like you, I bleed blue. I love these guys as much as all of you do. But that don't mean we should be like the parents who always see their kid as the best on the team, when they truthfully barely made the team. When these guys play great, I praise, when they play bad I am critical. I don't enjoy it, I would rather they play great personally. I am not trying to "bad mouth or bash" them. Just merely trying to discuss the weaknesses and problems that I saw in my Devils tonight, with people who love Duke basketball just as much as myself.

In fact I can make another post with all of the positives that I saw if you'd like. If it somehow balances out the negatives. But the positives mostly came from the guys that always do those things. So no big surprise. Nothing we haven't applauded them on hundreds of times before.

Well, Coach K disagree's with you. I listened to his comments on the ride home. I am not praising the team just for the sake of praising them. I viewed the game differently than you did. All team has weaknesses, this Duke team is no different. Mason is a sophomore big who is still very much learning but he is way beyond where he was last year. Because that has not translated into scoring, people believe he is a bad player. Our bigs are not the focus of the offense. We do not feed them the ball 25 times a game on the block. So a little unfair to be overly critical when they don't cash in on 100% of the 2 to 3 post up chances they get per game.

But my assessment of the game overall is not about Mason. As a whole the team played well, not poor. The defense was really good. Kyle and Seth did not shoot it as well as they can, but Nolan and Andre picked them up.

If I thought the team played poorly tonight I would have no problem saying it. But they did not play poorly. The intensity level was extremely high, and they competed. Miles played as hard as I have ever seen him play as did Ryan. Seth kind of got taken out of the game by the refs, but still played solid defense.

You saw things differently so we will agree to disagree.

Kfanarmy
01-02-2011, 11:40 PM
I'm personally not mad that we didn't blow them out. I would have been completely satisfied with a 5 point win, if they played well and we played better than they did. But they didn't play well, and neither did we. You guys keep talking about this is a top 5 team in the ACC. So what? Where do they stand in the country? Last time I checked our goal isn't to win the ACC only. They gave us a very tough game.

If that were say Syracuse in the Tourney we would have gotten spanked bad. Miami's suspect zone D gave us fits when they ran it. Image what a Jimmy Boheim zone would do to us. I bet he'd run a 3-2 zone, force us to pass it inside, and we'd be up a certain creek without a paddle at that point because we can't score in the paint unless Kyrie is throwing lobs. I won't even get into us trying to stop someone like Jared Sullinger from having 30 and 15.

I know its our first conference game and everything, and its great we came away with a win. But we have issues. If you guys honestly feel like the team we watched play TONIGHT is capable of making a push for the final four, you are going to be extremely disappointed. Most of the rest of us weren't actually playing...did "we" actually play poorly or did "we" watch? I'm confused. In any case, thanks for the season prediction. Shall we all go place $50 on Duke not making the tourney?

I understand concerns, but If Kyle shoots reasonably in this game, it is a blowout. Yes there are things to work on but I think the team has the goods to learn, improve, and finish strong.

Not sure where all the negativity is coming from. Teams that look perfect at this point of the season, don't always grow.

dukeblue1206
01-02-2011, 11:40 PM
Anybody see at that with the last seconds ticking of the clock it looked like Coach K was ticked about something. He was motioning to the ref with a manner that looked like he was saying someone was shoved or pushed and then looked to say something about it to Frank Haith when they shook hands at the end of the game. Anybody who DVR'd it go back and check it out at the final seconds and see if you see anybody from Miami do anything. I didn't see anything but it looked like something got under Coach K's skin.

4decadedukie
01-02-2011, 11:47 PM
I sent that comment.

I couldn't believe your post. I was hoping it was a poor attempt at sarcasm.


I sincerely appreciate your acknowledging your criticism. Let me assure you that my posts were not sarcastic, sardonic, or insincere; rather, #15 and #47 express my viewpoint re tonight's performance (and, much more important, its long-term potential). I hope I am entirely wrong, no one wants Duke to be victorious any more than I do! Obviously, this does not suggest that my opinions are necessarily correct or that they can/should not be debated. However, I understandably took exception to what I perceived as an unwarranted and unattributed criticism.

Kfanarmy
01-02-2011, 11:47 PM
When Duke (especially this year, with all the "repeat Championship hyperbole") at home and in its ACC opener, does not decisively put away a second tier ACC opponent, it can -- I am NOT saying it will -- create corrosive doubts in our locker room as well as real optimism in our opponents'. Even worse, many of the deficiencies I observed this evening may not simply be those of a single poor game -- they may extend far deeper.



R U sure the corrosive doubts aren't a little closer to home than the Duke locker room? No seriously.

Kedsy
01-02-2011, 11:50 PM
This close-to-embarrassing almost-home-loss to a lower-half ACC team should at least silence all the ridiculousness re Duke going undefeated, Duke being the presumptive National Champion, and so forth. We have weaknesses, some significant, the critical second-third of the season is underway, and we better blow Maryland out this week to ensure legitimate ACC contenders do not develop a "they are overrated, we can defeat them" attitude. Turnovers, rebounding, defensively created offense, transition defense, missed easy buckets, and the like MUST be immediately resolved, or this is season will evolve into one of disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential.

I'll put aside that this wasn't anywhere near "embarrassing," wasn't even close to being an "almost-home-loss," and that Miami isn't a "lower-half ACC team." I'll put aside that on January 2, nothing "MUST be immediately resolved."

Instead, I will share with you some games that the 1991-92 Duke team played against the lower half of the league:

1/2: @UVa (5th place in ACC that season): 68-62 win for Duke
2/12: @Ga Tech (4th place, so not lower half of the 9 team league, but as close to lower tier as Miami probably is): 71-62 win
2/20: Maryland at home (8th place in 9 team ACC): Duke 91-89 win
2/23: @Wake (6th place): 68-72 loss
2/26: UVa at home (5th place): 76-67 win
3/4: @Clemson (9th place in 9 team league): 98-97 win

There were weaknesses to be observed in all those games, but what I don't recall seeing were the "disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential." So perhaps you should lighten up just a little bit on your assessment and predictions?


My concern is that it is VERY late in the season for such substantial, team-wide assessment and resurrection.

Is it later in the season than the substantial team-wide assessment and resurrection we saw in 2010 or 2001? (Or lots of other seasons where we may not have won the national championship but had damn good seasons anyway?) Hint: of course not, it's the very first league game of the season.

I'm not trying to demean your opinion, but your panic-laced negativity sure is puzzling.

COYS
01-03-2011, 12:09 AM
I'll put aside that this wasn't anywhere near "embarrassing," wasn't even close to being an "almost-home-loss," and that Miami isn't a "lower-half ACC team." I'll put aside that on January 2, nothing "MUST be immediately resolved."

Instead, I will share with you some games that the 1991-92 Duke team played against the lower half of the league:

1/2: @UVa (5th place in ACC that season): 68-62 win for Duke
2/12: @Ga Tech (4th place, so not lower half of the 9 team league, but as close to lower tier as Miami probably is): 71-62 win
2/20: Maryland at home (8th place in 9 team ACC): Duke 91-89 win
2/23: @Wake (6th place): 68-72 loss
2/26: UVa at home (5th place): 76-67 win
3/4: @Clemson (9th place in 9 team league): 98-97 win

There were weaknesses to be observed in all those games, but what I don't recall seeing were the "disappointments, humiliating losses and unfulfilled potential." So perhaps you should lighten up just a little bit on your assessment and predictions?



Is it later in the season than the substantial team-wide assessment and resurrection we saw in 2010 or 2001? (Or lots of other seasons where we may not have won the national championship but had damn good seasons anyway?) Hint: of course not, it's the very first league game of the season.

I'm not trying to demean your opinion, but your panic-laced negativity sure is puzzling.

I'll back you up, Kedsy. Last season we were blown out by an NC State team that was rated 68 in Pomeroy, which is WORSE than Miami's 56 rating this season. To me, THAT was an embarrassing loss that could easily have eroded the psyche of the team. That game also occurred later in January and was not the first game against serious competition played without one of our star players. I'll give you, 4decadedukie, that the NC State loss was on the road. But I still would consider that loss to be more likely to have exposed some irreparable weakness than a 12 point victory in which we led comfortably for virtually the entire game. In many ways, tonight's game is like the 5th game of the new, post-Kyrie season. Many of us were scared that the closer-than-expected game against Marquette heralded a loss against either KSU or MSU. Instead, the team improved and played better against those two tougher teams. I strongly suspect that our offense will look much more polished in a few weeks after the team has had a chance to adjust to playing tough competition with the new offensive approach. At any rate, I do think it's way too early to worry about irreparable weaknesses.

4decadedukie
01-03-2011, 12:12 AM
We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility. I am hardly panicky; rather, I am concerned about similar indicators that potentially could adversely and materially impact Duke's 2011 performance.

JMarley50
01-03-2011, 12:16 AM
Most of the rest of us weren't actually playing...did "we" actually play poorly or did "we" watch? I'm confused. In any case, thanks for the season prediction. Shall we all go place $50 on Duke not making the tourney?

I understand concerns, but If Kyle shoots reasonably in this game, it is a blowout. Yes there are things to work on but I think the team has the goods to learn, improve, and finish strong.

Not sure where all the negativity is coming from. Teams that look perfect at this point of the season, don't always grow.

If you really want to try and play this game "we" can... I say "we" because if you have ever listened to coach K speak you would know that he says this is "our" team, including the people in the stands and fans. He says "we" all contribute to the success that is Duke basketball. "We" may not contribute directly on the floor, but "we" do laugh, scream, cheer, sweat, and even cry with the guys on the floor. Without "us" there would be nobody there to watch the team play. Therefore no need to even have a team. Is that really the best you can come up with??

Check your facts too. I never said they wouldn't make the tournament, and it would be quite ignorant of me to think that this team wouldn't make the tournament. I said do you honestly see the team that played TONIGHT making the final four?? I also never made season predictions... I spoke hypothetically (given your erroneous accusations I'm not sure you'll understand that word) that if "we" played a team such as Syracuse and played the way "we" played tonight, "we'd" get spanked and gave the reasons for MY opinion.

And just for the record lets say Kyle doesn't shoot reasonable tonight, yet Miami who went 3-17 from 3pt makes 3 more of those attempts. Then Johnson doesn't sit a good portion of the game due to foul trouble, at the rate he was going he would have at least had 30. If you add in that they were 12-20 from the free throw line and could have easily made a few more of those.."WE" lose.

That's my point, as well as the other people who are disappointed in tonight's effort. This game could have very easily went the other way. I do understand that this team is still developing. The purpose of this particular thread is to discuss how they played tonight. Everything I have said is based on TONIGHT. Back up at the very beginning of this I said they must learn from this and improve. Regardless how you view tonight's game I think we all agree that tonight's performance won't win the National Title. That's all we were saying.

El_Diablo
01-03-2011, 12:18 AM
If that were say Syracuse in the Tourney we would have gotten spanked bad. Miami's suspect zone D gave us fits when they ran it. Image what a Jimmy Boheim zone would do to us. I bet he'd run a 3-2 zone, force us to pass it inside, and we'd be up a certain creek without a paddle at that point because we can't score in the paint unless Kyrie is throwing lobs.

Ha...I must have missed this post the first time through. Way to go out on a limb there and predict that Syracuse would play a 3-2 zone. :) But I agree with you that it would be a problem if Kyrie never comes back and we were to play a similar game against a better opponent.

But wait, is that the same Syracuse team that was locked in a 1-point game at home with two minutes left against NC State...who was playing without Tracy Smith??? Ah, whew, it's a good thing we won't actually have to face Syracuse in the tournament, because they clearly will not make it to the big dance. ;) Same with Kansas, who beat 3-3 UCLA by 1 at home, and 6-5 USC at home by 2. I hear Kansas is packing it up for the year after those embarrassments. ;) And Ohio State almost lost to #153-ranked IUPUI (11-point win at home, same as our margin tonight)...they're done. ;)

Seriously, it's a long season. Sometimes a team is off a little (see Syracuse, Kansas, OSU). Good teams, and good coaches, will adjust. Sure, there were some frustrating things tonight, but we have plenty of time to tweak things. A loss this early would be nothing more than a bump in the road, much less a double-digit win against a solid team.

Duvall
01-03-2011, 12:21 AM
We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility.

That's a fairly absurd way to view a three point loss to the #2 team in the country.

And I'm pretty sure the development of no Duke team has even been positively or adversely affected by the beliefs of "the entire Duke community."

M B Walker
01-03-2011, 12:27 AM
We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility.

Since nothing said on this forum impacted the team's performance in 2004 (or any other year, for that matter), are you saying that the team -- and the Coach -- felt that they were invincible, and that's why we lost to UConn? I find it very hard to believe that Coach K would ever think any team was invincible. Could you explain why you think he did, please?

4decadedukie
01-03-2011, 12:33 AM
I'll back you up, Kedsy. Last season we were blown out by an NC State team that was rated 68 in Pomeroy, which is WORSE than Miami's 56 rating this season. To me, THAT was an embarrassing loss that could easily have eroded the psyche of the team. That game also occurred later in January and was not the first game against serious competition played without one of our star players. I'll give you, 4decadedukie, that the NC State loss was on the road. But I still would consider that loss to be more likely to have exposed some irreparable weakness than a 12 point victory in which we led comfortably for virtually the entire game. In many ways, tonight's game is like the 5th game of the new, post-Kyrie season. Many of us were scared that the closer-than-expected game against Marquette heralded a loss against either KSU or MSU. Instead, the team improved and played better against those two tougher teams. I strongly suspect that our offense will look much more polished in a few weeks after the team has had a chance to adjust to playing tough competition with the new offensive approach. At any rate, I do think it's way too early to worry about irreparable weaknesses.

I agree with your facts. However, my visceral feeling is last year's team had exceptional tenacity, continuous improvement, internal cohesion, leadership, selflessness, and character; these are the reasons and the traits that allowed Duke to overachieve and that eventually resulted in the National Championship. I know this will be highly unpopular, but I do not yet see the same degree of grit in this year's team. Tonight's performance is, in my opinion, indicative of this. I deeply hope I am wrong, no one wants Duke to be victorious -- and win it all -- any more than I do. I attended last season's Georgetown debacle; it is my strongly held belief that that substantial and highly visible loss was critical to our ultimate success and that it galvanized our team. That required real determination. I did not observe such determination in our team tonight. Some will say -- and they may well be correct -- that it's only one game, and we won it solidly. While that is an accurate factual appraisal, there are MANY crucial elements to victory that are decidedly less tangible; leadership, character, tenacity, and so forth fall in that category. Critically, they are simply indispensable in teams that aspire to win the National Championship.

-jk
01-03-2011, 12:37 AM
We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility. I am hardly panicky; rather, I am concerned about similar indicators that potentially could adversely and materially impact Duke's 2011 performance.

Almost every college team has deficiencies. That's the nature of college ball.

The one-and-done tourneys don't have predictable results. Fabulous ratings, but not predictable. That's their nature.

I'd love to have a juggernaut this year. So would every college fan. Most of us'll be dissapointed. Our odds are better than most.

Regardless, we're still fans. We still get emotionally entangled with our team.

We've been enjoying one of the greatest runs ever. Let's enjoy it. Worry here and there, but enjoy it.

-jk

4decadedukie
01-03-2011, 12:44 AM
I'm pretty sure the development of no Duke team has even been positively or adversely affected by the beliefs of "the entire Duke community."

We are dealing with youngsters, with an average age approximating twenty. Do you believe, despite the wisdom and the guidance of coaches and other mentors, that they are immune to a season-long "drumbeat" from the media, from expert pundits, from their classmates, perhaps from parents, siblings and friends, and from boosters and alumni, all of which indicate that they are the presumptive winners? I do not.

Kedsy
01-03-2011, 12:45 AM
We have some experiences with an excellent team that was predicted to win the National Championship, that (as I recall) were ranked first throughout the entire regular season, and that lost in the Championship game (on the final shot) to UConn. I have long believed that loss was the result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season, but were not successfully resolved due principally to our (the entire Duke community's) belief in our evident invincibility. I am hardly panicky; rather, I am concerned about similar indicators that potentially could adversely and materially impact Duke's 2011 performance.

(A) I am fairly confident no Duke team has ever lost because the fans thought the team was invincible. I am also reasonably confident that Coach K has never allowed his players or staff to believe the team was invincible. (Beyond that, I'm not sure I understand who the "entire Duke community" is);

(B) I can't say for certain, but I'm pretty sure we didn't lose that game on the final shot (my recollection is we had the ball with a chance to win but Trajan turned it over and then we fouled a UConn player and he hit a free throw or two to ice it, but as I say I'm not certain of that);

(C) In the 1998-99 season, Duke was ranked #1 for 8 weeks and UConn was ranked #1 for 10 weeks (which means, to repeat the obvious, that not only were we not "ranked first throughout the entire regular season," but UConn was ranked #1 more weeks than we were), and losing by three points to them was probably not "a result of many small deficiencies that were apparent during the season," but rather because a team who was pretty much even with us played just a little better than we did on that particular day;

(D) I personally don't think that anything that happened in seasons past will have any effect on what's going to happen to this year's team, except possibly as a teaching moment to the players or coaches (which doesn't appear to be your point, but I can't say that for certain) but if you want to look into the past for things that might predict the future, I'd suggest you look at last year and how the team regrouped after significantly worse (and later) performances than tonight's.

EDIT: I just read another post of yours, but can you honestly say you saw that "grit" you speak of during the Georgetown game last year, and that after that game you expected the team to bounce back like they did? Or are you looking at things in hindsight?

JMarley50
01-03-2011, 12:48 AM
Ha...I must have missed this post the first time through. Way to go out on a limb there and predict that Syracuse would play a 3-2 zone. :) But I agree with you that it would be a problem if Kyrie never comes back and we were to play a similar game against a better opponent.

But wait, is that the same Syracuse team that was locked in a 1-point game at home with two minutes left against NC State...who was playing without Tracy Smith??? Ah, whew, it's a good thing we won't actually have to face Syracuse in the tournament, because they clearly will not make it to the big dance. ;) Same with Kansas, who beat 3-3 UCLA by 1 at home, and 6-5 USC at home by 2. I hear Kansas is packing it up for the year after those embarrassments. ;) And Ohio State almost lost to #153-ranked IUPUI (11-point win at home, same as our margin tonight)...they're done. ;)

Seriously, it's a long season. Sometimes a team is off a little (see Syracuse, Kansas, OSU). Good teams, and good coaches, will adjust. Sure, there were some frustrating things tonight, but we have plenty of time to tweak things. A loss this early would be nothing more than a bump in the road, much less a double-digit win against a solid team.

Thank you! Some people should take notes! I understand you were for the most part disagreeing and even threw in a little sarcasm. But your comments made me smile. The whole purpose of this board is to discuss. There are usually multiple opinions in discussions and they can be completely different, but they are just opinions. Everyone is entitled to one. You agreed and disagreed but I didn't feel like I was being attacked like others have done to several of us here tonight.

Heck I have gotten so caught up in defending my opinion and right to an opinion that I didn't even get to the positives that I was going to talk about in tonight's game!

In regards to the zone, maybe using Syracuse as an hypothetical example wasn't the best choice, but they just always play darn good zone D. I would definitely throw a 3-2 or some type of match-up zone if I was coaching against this team. We can put 3 or 4 dead-eye shooters on the perimeter, and with good ball movement a 2-3 just can't close out quick enough.

4decadedukie
01-03-2011, 12:50 AM
Since nothing said on this forum impacted the team's performance in 2004 (or any other year, for that matter), are you saying that the team -- and the Coach -- felt that they were invincible, and that's why we lost to UConn? I find it very hard to believe that Coach K would ever think any team was invincible. Could you explain why you think he did, please?

I certainty do not believe the coaching staff ever thought Duke was invincible (in any year or any individual game); in fact, I am sure they attempted to convince the team of exactly the opposite conclusion. The players, however, MAY be more-influenced by a year-long "drumbeat" of inevitable victory. Please see my post #76, which provides a little more detail.

tele
01-03-2011, 01:00 AM
while some may say there is no such thing as a good loss, or a bad conference win even in a down ACC, you can certainly find room for improvement after either one. I'm not saying this was a bad win by any measure, but I can see that there are legitimate causes for concern. I'll just point out two obvious ones that may have already been mentioned and discussed. Both Kyle and Nolan played a full 40 minutes, and the team only played 7 deep. That's a bad call, foul trouble or an injury away from a very different outlook on things, not half full or half empty, just on the level.

Not having a wider lead means that the game pressure was on a full 40 and you only went 7 deep on the bench. Over the long run, this is less than ideal, and could be a weakness. That's different than saying you have to blow someone out to be a good win.

Anyway, I think both teams played hard and it was a well played game and a well deserved and well earned victory for Duke. I'm sure Miami can find some good things to take away from their effort too.

Nolan had another really nice game, he is really fun to watch when he has the ball in the open court, puts a load of pressure on the opposing team with his unselfish passes, ability to get the rim and finish or just to pull up and hit the three. He reminds me of someone who was also really great bringing the ball up in the open court, but I won't go there again.

Seth has to bring it.

Duvall
01-03-2011, 01:02 AM
We are dealing with youngsters, with an average age approximating twenty. Do you believe, despite the wisdom and the guidance of coaches and other mentors, that they are immune to a season-long "drumbeat" from the media, from expert pundits, from their classmates, perhaps from parents, siblings and friends, and from boosters and alumni, all of which indicate that they are the presumptive winners? I do not.

I believe there are much more reasonable ways to explain a single possession loss to the #2 team in the country than projecting some imagined deficient mindset onto a team that had already lost a game that season.

4decadedukie
01-03-2011, 01:09 AM
Anybody see at that with the last seconds ticking of the clock it looked like Coach K was ticked about something. He was motioning to the ref with a manner that looked like he was saying someone was shoved or pushed and then looked to say something about it to Frank Haith when they shook hands at the end of the game. Anybody who DVR'd it go back and check it out at the final seconds and see if you see anybody from Miami do anything. I didn't see anything but it looked like something got under Coach K's skin.

Yes, I, too, noticed this; however, I have no idea what caused Coach K's angry reaction.

ncexnyc
01-03-2011, 01:09 AM
Typical post-game thread after a win. Lots of folks wearing blinders and some thinking the sky is falling. Can't we all just get along?

Here is what I saw:

1. Nolan is extremely steady and is providing exactly what you expect from one of your seniors. He is getting the job done on both ends of the floor.

2. Kyle had a steady game and does all the little things, that at times go unnoticed.

3. Andre is evolving into our third scorer right before our eyes. He is showing us all the shots and continues to play solid D, something we were concerned about at the start of the year. He has clearly snatched this role from Seth.

4. Seth my man of the quick hands got himself into foul trouble. Hopefully he finds a groove and can settle into a role where he's comfortable and that he can flourish in.

5. Kelly's Heroes have to love what they saw tonight. It's no wonder that he has surplanted Mason as a starter. While not having the great physical gifts our other bigs have, he does possess a stellar basketball IQ, maybe we should have learned that lesson from watching Jon for 4 years.

6. Miles showed a lot of energy tonight. There isn't anything wrong with his game that a tube of stickem couldn't fix.

7. Mason remains a mystery to me. The KI excuse is wearing kind of thin. Either the kid can or can't play. Let's remember he was being touted as a high 1st rounder so it's time for us to see more Marquette like games on a more regular basis.

As others have already mentioned. The team did a great job of taking Miami's guard duo out of their game and holding them in check for the majority of the game. I can't let Mr. Johnson's play go without mention. The kid is a beast, very soft hands and a nice touch from the charity stripe. His bulk gave us a lot of trouble and it will be interesting to see if any of our bigs develop to where they can hold their own against a stud like this down the road.

JMarley50
01-03-2011, 01:17 AM
while some may say there is no such thing as a good loss, or a bad conference win even in a down ACC, you can certainly find room for improvement after either one. I'm not saying this was a bad win by any measure, but I can see that there are legitimate causes for concern. I'll just point out two obvious ones that may have already been mentioned and discussed. Both Kyle and Nolan played a full 40 minutes, and the team only played 7 deep. That's a bad call, foul trouble or an injury away from a very different outlook on things, not half full or half empty, just on the level.

Not having a wider lead means that the game pressure was on a full 40 and you only went 7 deep on the bench. Over the long run, this is less than ideal, and could be a weakness. That's different than saying you have to blow someone out to be a good win.

Anyway, I think both teams played hard and it was a well played game and a well deserved and well earned victory for Duke. I'm sure Miami can find some good things to take away from their effort too.

Nolan had another really nice game, he is really fun to watch when he has the ball in the open court, puts a load of pressure on the opposing team with his unselfish passes, ability to get the rim and finish or just to pull up and hit the three. He reminds me of someone who was also really great bringing the ball up in the open court, but I won't go there again.

Seth has to bring it.

I agree. I personally felt this game was much closer than others seem to. Some of our blocked shots in the post could have easily been called fouls. Miami also shot horribly from outside, less than 20% I think. If a few more of those fall, its a much different game. Now I am just starting to repeat myself so I'll stop.

Nolan was spectacular. He picked up the guys, put them on his back and carried them into the second half, until he started getting help. In the past I have been in the group that thinks Nolan is better served playing off the ball with Seth running point. But tonight I really liked Nolan having the ball in his hands.

DukieTiger
01-03-2011, 01:26 AM
A few thoughts...

-WITH Johnson in the game, Miami did not grab a defensive rebound until the 12 minute mark of the first half. He did have his way at times in the second half, but I would say Duke did more than an ok job given its opponent in the rebounding category. Also, if people remember back in the '05-'06 season, there was a cat for Indiana who absolutely went off against Duke- and that was WITH the Landlord down low. A bunch of people were worried about that, but the fact was that Duke's strategy that day was to let him (whose name is eluding me) get his points and to shut down the IU guards. I think we saw a similar strategy tonight.

-I thought Duke was sloppy tonight. It's happened at other times this year, where they will just go through a 3 or 4 minute stretch where they just can't seem to get a handle on the ball or make a good decision. It even happened a few times while Irving was playing. I attribute this to a few things: younger players learning how to adjust to the speed and intensity of the game in their new roles; a quicker tempo to this year's team might be causing some guys to rush things a bit- but only at certain times; missing Jon Scheyer's steadying presence; and specifically tonight, adjusting to playing more of a half court game against a zone defense that they don't see every day, without their starting point guard for the first time against a legit opponent.

-While the stats aren't sexy, Miles Plumlee and Ryan Kelly are playing with a fire that I haven't seen from them before.

-While I'm not referring to anyone specifically, I think a common temptation for Duke fans coming into this year has been to have the expectation that they would rip through the ACC- undefeated and with a 1999-esque avg scoring margin. I think most would say this was unrealistic, but at the same time the feeling lingers to the point where some of us are let down if Duke does not blow an opponent off the court- to the point where we are disappointed in a mere 11 point win. It's important to remember that the majority of these guys are playing with a rather significant learning curve, that Duke will take everyone's best shot and that a double digit win is still something to celebrate.

DukieTiger
01-03-2011, 01:32 AM
I agree. I personally felt this game was much closer than others seem to. Some of our blocked shots in the post could have easily been called fouls. Miami also shot horribly from outside, less than 20% I think. If a few more of those fall, its a much different game. Now I am just starting to repeat myself so I'll stop.


There are two-sides to the "could have" coin, if you want to play it (not sure why you would in this case- I thought Miami played about as well as they could have hoped tonight.) Duke's working margin was a 10-15 point lead, and they could have blown things wide open (20-plus pt lead) just as easily as the game could have been closer.

For example, Duke bobbled at least a couple fast break opportunities, had multiple unforced turnovers, had a couple defensive lapses and fumbled more than a couple rebounds.

Aditya
01-03-2011, 01:54 AM
...about last year's team? Expect them to be in the Final Four? Win an NC?

It may be very late in the "season" (whatever that means) but it certainly isn't very late in the ACC season, given that this was our first game.

I thought some of the problems in the middle had to do with the referees who allowed Reggie to plant himself in the paint and to have two pivot feet! I thought Mason looked scared of him at the beginning of the game, though Miles and Ryan didn't.

And rebounding... we weren't outrebounded by them. We had 37; they had 32.

I am surprised not to see more comments about the officiating. Those of us in Cameron were in shock over so many Miami no-calls and so many dinky Duke calls. And although you probably couldn't see it on TV, at every media time out, one of the refs was talking with the Miami coaching staff... glad they were friendly! ;)

I was also in Cameron, and I agree that the officiating was pretty bad. It wasn't enough to put the game on the line, but it was still worrisome to me.

Whatever problems the team has, we do have a hall of fame coach to give feedback in practice and improve the team. I don't think there is any reason for major concern about long term prospects. If anything, I thought it was encouraging that Dawkins and Kelly did such a great job against the first quality team they played in some time. It is one thing to rain threes and shoot over UNCG, and it is completely different to do so against Miami. If two key younger players can do well against quality competition, then I think everything else should fall into place over time.

CameronBornAndBred
01-03-2011, 02:01 AM
I was also in Cameron, and I agree that the officiating was pretty bad. It wasn't enough to put the game on the line, but it was still worrisome to me.

The officiating was horrendous. This may be a good thing...we perservered in the face of new adversity. The team can only control their play on the court, I think overall we played a solid opponent well but not great. However, if you put a different crew of officials on the court, this game would have been a much larger margin of victory in our favor, despite our shooting woes. I like seeing that we still won handily given the way the game was called.

JMarley50
01-03-2011, 02:03 AM
There are two-sides to the "could have" coin, if you want to play it (not sure why you would in this case- I thought Miami played about as well as they could have hoped tonight.) Duke's working margin was a 10-15 point lead, and they could have blown things wide open (20-plus pt lead) just as easily as the game could have been closer.

For example, Duke bobbled at least a couple fast break opportunities, had multiple unforced turnovers, had a couple defensive lapses and fumbled more than a couple rebounds.

I agree with you 100% That is exactly why I feel like the guys didn't play so well tonight. I thought it was overall a sloppy game, with some flashes of greatness thrown in. There were some dumb turnovers made, and a lot of missed easy buckets, that have to be made. My whole opinion of this game is based on these two sides of the coin we are referring to. The side you are referring to is what should have happened if Duke played anywhere near their full capabilities against a team that played as poor as Miami did. I was merely pointing out that given the way our guys did play tonight, Miami could have easily taken us down. That should not happen. Lucky for us, they shot worse than a JV girls team would have against us from outside (slight sarcasm) and we were able to walk away with a win. But its still not good that we put ourselves in that position to begin with and we can't do it in March if we plan on repeating (As I think we still do for the record).

Jeff0r3
01-03-2011, 03:18 AM
6. Miles showed a lot of energy tonight. There isn't anything wrong with his game that a tube of stickem couldn't fix.



Well Said.. Great evaluation overall...

Saratoga2
01-03-2011, 06:27 AM
With no Kyrie, and a solid opponent, it was interesting to see where the points would come from and how the defense would step up. Based on our recent games, including Miami, it appears we can expect around 40 points from the seniors on any given night. Clearly other teams will try to defend Kyle and Nolan and keep those points down.

With Dawkins showing continuing improvement he is likely to give us a lift with around 15 points and the combined bigs maybe 15 more. Kelly reminds me of a young Kevin McKale. He is an inch shorter but this is college ball and he has the same in game composure. The enigma is the lack of finesse and touch by the Plumlee brothers.With such great physical skills and their intense play, you would expect more points. Maybe it is something you either have of don't.

I don't expect Seth to take the collar in many games and he could easily give us between 5 and 10 points per game going forward.


Given this assessment, I would expect Duke to score in the 75 point range, unless and until Kyrie makes it back. That means to me that we will need to play very solid defense and are not likely to win by large margins. On any given night, another team may get hot and be able to pin a loss on us, but it will not be grounds for panic as this year's team is basically very sound and capable of winning against any opponent.

roywhite
01-03-2011, 07:19 AM
7. Mason remains a mystery to me. The KI excuse is wearing kind of thin. Either the kid can or can't play. Let's remember he was being touted as a high 1st rounder so it's time for us to see more Marquette like games on a more regular basis.



Like others, I sure would like to see Mason shoot better, both from the line and around the basket. However, what the team really needs from Mason IMO is rebounding and interior defense. On those counts, he is delivering, with 10 rebounds, 4 blocks, and other shots altered.

I didn't expect this, but his role in some games has become very similar to Zoubs from last year. Inside scoring (with Mason, Miles, and Ryan) is a work in progress, but fortunately we have other really good scoring options, both from outside and from players (Nolan and Kyle particularly) who can drive to the basket.

We'll see how Mason comes on as the season goes along, but let's recognize some of what he is doing well.

slower
01-03-2011, 07:33 AM
With or without Kyrie, I think Duke still goes undefeated in the ACC cause the conference is horrible outside of Duke.

If I was a betting man, I'd take your money. Sure, it's POSSIBLE - I just don't think it's probable.

DukieInBrasil
01-03-2011, 07:44 AM
A few thoughts...

-WITH Johnson in the game, Miami did not grab a defensive rebound until the 12 minute mark of the first half. He did have his way at times in the second half, but I would say Duke did more than an ok job given its opponent in the rebounding category. Also, if people remember back in the '05-'06 season, there was a cat for Indiana who absolutely went off against Duke- and that was WITH the Landlord down low. A bunch of people were worried about that, but the fact was that Duke's strategy that day was to let him (whose name is eluding me) get his points and to shut down the IU guards. I think we saw a similar strategy tonight.

That is EXACTLY the game that I was thinking of when we were approaching this game and the type of strategy we would employ: shut down the guards and let the big man get his, if he can, due to our dedication to defending the outside. Guess what? Duke won both games.
The kid's name was Marco Killingsworth, who was a transfer from Auburn or Alabama.

ncexnyc
01-03-2011, 09:15 AM
Like others, I sure would like to see Mason shoot better, both from the line and around the basket. However, what the team really needs from Mason IMO is rebounding and interior defense. On those counts, he is delivering, with 10 rebounds, 4 blocks, and other shots altered.

I didn't expect this, but his role in some games has become very similar to Zoubs from last year. Inside scoring (with Mason, Miles, and Ryan) is a work in progress, but fortunately we have other really good scoring options, both from outside and from players (Nolan and Kyle particularly) who can drive to the basket.

We'll see how Mason comes on as the season goes along, but let's recognize some of what he is doing well.

Fair enough, I'm as guilty as the next guy when it comes to buying into media hype on a kid's potential.

I've seen a great deal of improvement in the play of Miles and I'm sure we'll see Mason improve his game over the season as well.

Now be honest with me, didn't you cuss at the TV when Mason followed Reggie to the sidelines, only to have that 300lb beast spin away for an easy basket?;)

hq2
01-03-2011, 09:33 AM
I think this game shows about 2 or 3 things.

1. Our defense is fine. Team Plumlee showed they can stop the other team's bigs,
and our perimeter D was pretty good too.

2. This team is clearly going to have problems attacking zones. Our ability to drive
and dish was almost non-existent, and the Plumlees didn't show any back to the basket offense either. Consequently, we had to rely too much on 3 point shooting, which (fortunately, last night) worked.

3. Once again, Andre showed what he can do. Against the zone, he hit threes, and drove right into the gaps for good looks. 'Dre is fast becoming option #3, and I think will be averaging around 15 from here on in.

Against a better shooting team (which we will see) this could have been an L.

DevilWearsPrada
01-03-2011, 09:35 AM
The officiating was horrendous. This may be a good thing...we perservered in the face of new adversity. The team can only control their play on the court, I think overall we played a solid opponent well but not great. However, if you put a different crew of officials on the court, this game would have been a much larger margin of victory in our favor, despite our shooting woes. I like seeing that we still won handily given the way the game was called.

HERE HERE!!! One of the worst officiated games I have ever witnessed! And seeing Karl Hess, out there, and blowing the whistle on Goodness knows what.... a figment of his imagination. This trio of officials needs to serious review their DVD of the Duke Miami game.... and be glad Duke pushed through and still won.

Miami got by with what I call TYLER HANSBOROUGH SYNDROME..... Traveling!!!! GEE, I thought Mrs K (Mickey) was going to blow a gasket last night!!!! And very physical.... The #1(Mr Scott) for Miami, very fast, but like to put his hands all over the players. And #42 (Mr Johnson) was a beast!!! Very tall and thick. Reminded me of Baby Davis or Shaq. Regardless, of how the officials called the game..... Duke had to overcome that, and the physicalness of a very talented Miami team, and still get the W.

Frank Haith is an excellent coach!!! He is a fine person and had the upmost character growing up! . He hails from Burlington and is an alum of Elon University! He is a good recruiter also. Haith has put together good teams in Sunny Miami.

Great to see MP1 (Miles) and Ryan developing confidence and reaching in and grabbing those rebounds. Andre continues to be very consistent and a definite shooting threat!! Seth got into foul trouble. Dadgumit. Mason... keep on working, son!!! Nolan and Kyle.... You are the leaders! Nolan was rolling last night!!! This kid deserves so much more accolades than he receives!!! He was awesome last night. Reminded me of Johnny Dawkins, at times...... driving in the lane and laying it in the basket. 13 point run was awesome!!! Kyle, although he had a quiet game, had good stats.

I remember Coach K always saying, although officials might not be calling the game as we see it.......... you overcome that, and just play your game!!! I had to keep saying that to myself, throughout the game. Miami blew in with the Hurricane, and did cause a stir and a physical storm, but got sent home on the plane!!!

I will not dwell on the officials... WE ALL SAW the game, either live or on TV. FOR DUKE, not to be an ATHLETIC team (are they still not ATHLETIC?)..... they overcame a very very physical Miami Hurricanes, and prevailed the STORM!!!!

and as always, GO DUKE !!! And may all your TOES be Healed!! Amen

Billy Dat
01-03-2011, 09:46 AM
I think a lot of people's criticisms stem from the start of the game, or shall I call it "the period of time before Nolan picked up that charge and decided to destroy Miami by himself". Before that, we looked like what we were, a team playing their first real competition since losing their first NBA-quality point guard in years. We have to remember that, sans Kyrie, we are basically back to square one. You kind of have to view the first half of the ACC as the typical pre-conference season as we get used to a new style.

The first thing that needs to be worked out is Nolan at the point. What IS figured out is that he can score with anyone in the country and he plays great defense. He is also a natural leader. What he is not is a point guard who looks to get everyone else off before he starts looking for his points. Based on recent news coverage and stuff K has been telling the TV guys, he has been imploring Nolan to score first, especially after that first post-Kyrie game (bradley) when he was more of a distributor and had 2 points and 10 assists. So, we are going to build our offense around Nolan as a score first point guard...that's interesting, something we haven't seen since, probably, Jason Williams.

My initial impressions are that while Nolan is a brilliant scorer, it forces Kyle to be a lot more resourceful on offense, and also a lot more perimeter oriented. Teasing that out a little more, wither the bigs? I think the formula for success for them, as we saw last night, is to fly around like absolute maniacs on offense, screening and going hard to the boards. Sounds a lot like last year, but Miles is always a threat to dunk those putbacks, and Ryan Kelly is emerging as a great pick and pop guy, who last night followed Miles' example and got a few tip ins. His awkward post tip-in chest thump, as if he surprised himself, was one of the quietly classic moments of the early season. I am with everyone who was praising Miles' energy last night...he came to play and was really uninhibited.

That leaves Mason. Bottom line, unless we are going to run plays for him, I don't see Nolan focused on getting him involved which means he's going to have to take the regulator off his motor and start flying around like his brother and Kelly. When I watch him play, he just seems inhibited, but Miles was playing that way too early in the year and has shaken that off (at least last night). He needs to play free and let it loose, because it doesn't look like we're going to try and get him the ball in his spots.

I think Andre is clearly our 3rd scoring option, and a hugely potent one at that. Again, with Nolan emerging as a score-first point guard, Andre's going to have be more aggressive at getting his looks. I feel like he's getting the bad habit of being a slow starter. He should watch some tapes of Orlando Magic era JJ Redick who, unlike when he was at Duke, uses his drive to set up his outside shot. Dre has been putting it on the floor more - I just want to see him put his mark on the game earlier in the game.

Defensively, I love that our bigs are flying all over the place swatting shots. I know that kind of exuberance leads to some easy putbacks, but the intimidation factor is huge. Despite Johnson's points, Miles was getting under his skin - as evidence by that late T. Frank Haith must have wanted to pull his hair out when Miami started knocking down 3s with 2 minutes left, because they couldn't hit jack before then, even with some wide open looks.

We are far from a finished product. 1-0 in the ACC, let's keep evolving.

peterjswift
01-03-2011, 09:58 AM
I don't want to add much more fuel to the fire, since I'm pretty happy with what I saw as a solid win. The margin surprised me, whenever I looked at the score I expected Duke to be up by a lot more...it never seemed like it was in doubt.

However, in a lot of the second half, I felt like Duke's offense wasn't clicking very well. They weren't making effective use of the shot clock, and time and time again I saw players take contested shots 5 seconds in. It rarely worked. A few of Singler's shots seemed to be really poor decisions during this span. As soon as Smith started bringing the ball up and running a set play, we seemed to score with ease. I was kind of hoping for K to call a time out and remind the guys to play under a little more control at the offensive end. Instead, it seemed like Duke was still trying to play with the "Irving-era" mentality of run & gun instead of adjusting to the personnel and taking advantage of mismatches and screens. In the last ten minute of the first half and the last 7 minutes of the second half, I thought we did this effectively, and our points per possession was much higher.

Anyone else notice this?

Wander
01-03-2011, 10:05 AM
7. Mason remains a mystery to me. The KI excuse is wearing kind of thin. Either the kid can or can't play.

Unfortunately, it's become quite clear that Kyrie was almost entirely responsible for Mason's early success (on offense). I remember wanting to vote Irving MOTM of the Marquette game, but chickened out at the last second. I wish I hadn't. Mason averaged over 10 points before Irving's injury, and is averaging less than 3 points since.

And, roywhite, I think it's a mistake to equate Mason's role to Zoubek's. Almost everyone on this board was really good about recognizing that Scheyer and Irving would play different styles and have different roles despite playing the same position - the same holds true for Zoubek and Mason. I expect much different things (not necessarily better) out of Plumlee than I did Z.

All that said, I'm happy where everyone else on the team is and think we're in fine shape.

aro24
01-03-2011, 10:06 AM
Anybody see at that with the last seconds ticking of the clock it looked like Coach K was ticked about something. He was motioning to the ref with a manner that looked like he was saying someone was shoved or pushed and then looked to say something about it to Frank Haith when they shook hands at the end of the game. Anybody who DVR'd it go back and check it out at the final seconds and see if you see anybody from Miami do anything. I didn't see anything but it looked like something got under Coach K's skin.

I saw this too...and it appeared as though Haith asked K while shaking hands what he was referring to...almost like "hey, what did one of my kids do...if it was something dirty, let me address it".......K appeared to move past it pretty quickly though. Just my pure speculation.....I would love to be able to hear what those guys say to each other.

ARo24

BlueDGal
01-03-2011, 10:07 AM
I am notoriously a "negative nellie" when it comes to Duke....I always worry about any opponent, decide ahead of time Duke should beat "whatever opponent" by "this many points" and then when it's not happening, think Duke is playing badly....BUT not this time. I thought Duke played well, not perfect and I appreciated some of the great things we saw out of Nolan and Andre.....I also thought Miles was active and seems to be improving every game. Ryan Kelly is a smart player. It's much easier on me now to just watch the game with no expectations or decisions about what will happen. This is a changing, growing team.....love it that we will eventually see "the bigs" do great things!

PADukeMom
01-03-2011, 10:17 AM
I thought we played okay for this being our first game of the ACC. 'Dre looked good, Nolan was on fire...Mason...sigh..sophmore slump perhaps?

I found myself thinking we can't play like this against the best in the ACC when it dawned on me we are the best in the ACC. Hmmm. Highlight of the game: Kyrie's toe flex.

Ok who here almost fainted when Nolan doubled over & grabbed his hip? I screamed NO so loud my cats still haven't come out from under my bed.

Kfanarmy
01-03-2011, 10:30 AM
If you really want to try and play this game "we" can... I say "we" because if you have ever listened to coach K speak you would know that he says this is "our" team, including the people in the stands and fans. He says "we" all contribute to the success that is Duke basketball. "We" may not contribute directly on the floor, but "we" do laugh, scream, cheer, sweat, and even cry with the guys on the floor. Without "us" there would be nobody there to watch the team play. Therefore no need to even have a team. Is that really the best you can come up with??

Check your facts too. I never said they wouldn't make the tournament, and it would be quite ignorant of me to think that this team wouldn't make the tournament. I said do you honestly see the team that played TONIGHT making the final four?? I also never made season predictions... I spoke hypothetically (given your erroneous accusations I'm not sure you'll understand that word) that if "we" played a team such as Syracuse and played the way "we" played tonight, "we'd" get spanked and gave the reasons for MY opinion.

And just for the record lets say Kyle doesn't shoot reasonable tonight, yet Miami who went 3-17 from 3pt makes 3 more of those attempts. Then Johnson doesn't sit a good portion of the game due to foul trouble, at the rate he was going he would have at least had 30. If you add in that they were 12-20 from the free throw line and could have easily made a few more of those.."WE" lose.

.

Let's try not to pretend there was some logical argument here. It just gets my goat when people use "we" right up until the negative prediction, where it becomes "they." The facts are: you said "If you guys honestly feel like the team we watched play TONIGHT is capable of making a push for the final four, you are going to be extremely disappointed." You said the team that you watched play wasn't CAPABLE of making a push to the final four. Your statement predicts future performance based upon last night's winning, but below your standard, performance. It was based upon nothing but opinion. I'm guessing long about this time last year some were predicting a loss in the first round or so. This team will grow I believe. Predicitions of demise are usually more about providing the predictor with some positive feeling from predicting less than a national championship, and are of course accurate for all but one team each year. Have some faith. The team you watched is CAPABLE of making a push to the final four.

DevilWearsPrada
01-03-2011, 10:33 AM
When did Nolan double over and grab his hip? I was at the game, and it was fast paced....... you couldnt see all the details.

Rarely in Cameron, do you get to see Replays. However, did Replay the call on Nolan for a charge.......... that wasnt a charge. Everyone booed and hissed. And that set Nolan on Fire.

GODUKEGO
01-03-2011, 10:40 AM
Ryan, Andre and especially Nolan had tremendous games.

Reading some of the comments about the Plumlee's however I will have to disagree about them playing well. They were a combined 3-12 from the field. Neither could stop Reggie Johnson inside who played only 23 minutes because of foul trouble. Johnson was 9-10 with 22 points. Thanks goodness he was sitting on the bench for much of the game. His farthest shot from the basket was four feet. One on one the Plumlee's could not stop him but many of his points came from Mason and Miles not switching back to Johnson at the top of the key. Johnson rolled to the basket completely unattested with Mason and Miles standing at the top of the key with a glazed look in their eyes. One of the hardest things about coaching is having a player stay within their limitations. That is Mason and Miles not taking ten to fifteen foot jump shots. We do not need any more shooters. As wacky as Dennis Rodman was as a player, I wish they would watch film of Rodman. The guy was a tenacious rebounder and would not be caught taking a jump shot. The Plumlee's are tremendous defenders and shot blockers on weak side help but need work on defending one on one. I love the guys. Their enthusiasm and athletic ability are tremendous. They will be the key IMO for repeating.

CameronBornAndBred
01-03-2011, 10:53 AM
Now be honest with me, didn't you cuss at the TV when Mason followed Reggie to the sidelines, only to have that 300lb beast spin away for an easy basket?;)
I don't know if they showed it on TV, but Wojo instantly became livid and called for Miles off the bench. We knew Mason was coming out, Mason knew he was coming out. He walked to sidelines as Miles came in, and was turned back to the court by the coaches. Miles came in for Kelly. (I may have those two reversed, but either way Mason stayed in.) It was a bit of a head scratcher to see the reaction on the sideline and then the resulting bench move.

stillcrazie
01-03-2011, 10:56 AM
I don't know if they showed it on TV, but Wojo instantly became livid and called for Miles off the bench. We knew Mason was coming out, Mason knew he was coming out. He walked to sidelines as Miles came in, and was turned back to the court by the coaches. Miles came in for Kelly. (I may have those two reversed, but either way Mason stayed in.) It was a bit of a head scratcher to see the reaction on the sideline and then the resulting bench move.

Maybe Wojo had expected Kelly to move toward the basket and help?

CBDUKE
01-03-2011, 11:15 AM
When did Nolan double over and grab his hip? I was at the game, and it was fast paced....... you couldnt see all the details.

Rarely in Cameron, do you get to see Replays. However, did Replay the call on Nolan for a charge.......... that wasnt a charge. Everyone booed and hissed. And that set Nolan on Fire.

Nolan grabbed hi hip when he was called for a blocking foul in the lane as the Miami guy turned and ran into him.

Indoor66
01-03-2011, 11:20 AM
I seems to me that the defensive plan was to take away the three point shot, as we always do. This means over playing and helping on the perimeter. This also means that the inside players are defending, in many instances, one on one. When a perimeter player drives and our bigs help, the offense has an advantage on the inside and we often give up layups and dunks.

You can't defend everything. We take away the three and give up some inside layups/dunks to the bigs on the other team. We overplay trying to make steals and leave ourselves open for the dump offs. This is the game plan. It is not a failing. Sometimes players make inappropriate switches or sometimes leave their man to help at the wrong moment; sometimes the offense makes a great pass or the big makes a great drop step. That is the risk in the game plan.

Sometimes a great plan does not play out as you envision - then you adjust. How did all this work out last night? We won by 11. I think it worked out fine. I always try to remember that the other team is trying to score, trying to defend, trying to win. ACC caliber athletes are all very good basketball players. To assume we can dominate them all the time is a pipe dream.

Reddevil
01-03-2011, 11:36 AM
I think a lot of people's criticisms stem from the start of the game, or shall I call it "the period of time before Nolan picked up that charge and decided to destroy Miami by himself". Before that, we looked like what we were, a team playing their first real competition since losing their first NBA-quality point guard in years. We have to remember that, sans Kyrie, we are basically back to square one. You kind of have to view the first half of the ACC as the typical pre-conference season as we get used to a new style....

We are far from a finished product. 1-0 in the ACC, let's keep evolving.

This is exactly right. The team is still in the process of reinventing itself. Roles have changed across the board. This comes a bit easier for the upperclassmen who are carrying the team now. Improvement will be gradual, but it will come with experience in the new MO. We have to like the fact that the team is able to learn while still winning. This will be a great game for them to break down on tape. Miami at home was the perfect situation for teaching and learning. Take the win, but treat it as film study afterwards. This team is a pupa right now. What emerges could be amazing.

rhcpflea99
01-03-2011, 11:39 AM
If I didn't watch the game I would have thought Duke had lost this game by reading most of these post. Good teams find a way to win.

NSDukeFan
01-03-2011, 11:44 AM
It may not be a great win, but it's a solid one.

This is just the second time Duke has lost a half this season -- the first was against Marquette earlier on.

We didn't look like a #1 team that is head and shoulders above everyone and one expected to go undefeated, but we still looked like the best team in the ACC and a contender for a #1 seed in the NCAA tournament.

Nolan was incredible tonight, Kyle wasn't his best but still contributed, Andre and Kelly were good. The Plumlees were solid if not spectacular. Curry was really the only player who went missing. But this is a Duke team that needs Nolan and Kyle to have good games, and for at least one other player to score in the >15 point range. Kyrie used to be that guy, but now we'll need someone else to be able to consistently fill that role.

As others have pointed out, I don't understand the negativity about the team after its first ACC game, second game in 2 and a half weeks, first game against a quality team that harbored at least some chance of winning in almost a month. I guess I do understand the negativity if you were expecting Duke to coast through the ACC season undefeated and waltz to an NCAA championship, all the while dominating Pomeroy ratings. If you were expecting Duke would have many tough games in the ACC season, that the team will use these to improve and hopefully be stronger by the ACC and NCAA tournaments and hopefully contend for the title in both, this game was a solid start in that direction.

As always, I would like to see the team look to get the ball into our three headed post monster more in both the low and high posts. If the team tries to get high percentage shots and work the offense in other ways, then those three are most needed to rebound and defend, which I thought they did quite well. I think this was probably my biggest concern coming into this year and after the first game of ACC play, Miles, Mason and Ryan did a pretty good job defending, especially helping out on Grant and Scott.

I am very excited to playing better quality opponents in ACC play and back to playing more than 2 games in three weeks. Good step on a journey that has a long way to go.

Stratrat
01-03-2011, 11:47 AM
This is my first post. I rarely feel the need to post because a lot of you are very astute in your views of our team and leave little that isn't discussed.
I do want to say that I was really excited about Duke having the pieces to run and gun all game long this year. I can see that with Kyrie it was better but I don't understand why we still can't gun it. Of course, I am not questioning Coach K cause we all know that he knows best, but I was hoping we could use Tyler and Josh in that kind of setting. They both seem to be very steady when they play and that style was made for the Plums. Miami exposed our weakness down low in this half court game. I think Ohio State's big guy would eat us up in a half court game.
Just thinking out loud.

slower
01-03-2011, 12:06 PM
Miami exposed our weakness down low in this half court game. I think Ohio State's big guy would eat us up in a half court game.
Just thinking out loud.

We'll see how they do against Jordan Williams.

CameronBornAndBred
01-03-2011, 12:36 PM
Maybe Wojo had expected Kelly to move toward the basket and help?
In hindsight that would make sense. There was nobody within 10 feet of the basket, and nobody even moved to try a desperation run.

gwlaw99
01-03-2011, 12:38 PM
We'll see how they do against Jordan Williams.

Any thoughts on bringing Christian Laettner in as a big man coach? Would he want the job?

johnb
01-03-2011, 12:38 PM
Some people may be griping about the win because they're comparing the team to some sort of amalgam of the '99 and '01 teams. Kyle is supposed to be NPOY, Nolan is a 1st team A-A, Mason is a lottery pick, and Kyrie is scheduled to be among the top two people drafted. Miles, Andre, Ryan, and Seth are going to the NBA in 2012. In other words, our top 8 guys are soon to be in the NBA, our top few guys should be NBA All-Stars, and the only tension remaining in the season is whether we win a NC and go undefeated or we win a NC and lose a game or two.

If that is your supposition, we should beat Miami by 30 in a game packed to the gills with fast breaks and 24 foot swishes.

And if that is your supposition, a workmanlike game against a strong opponent that leads to a double digit victory will be a disappointment.

If, on the other hand, you see two guys who are among the top handful of seniors in the country, a half dozen players who are very good but works in progress, and an electrifying player in a cast, you may approach each game with more humility; plus, it's probably more fun to recognize that we could actually lose some of these upcoming games.

In other words, if you're feeling disillusioned, you were probably illusioned in the first place.

burns15
01-03-2011, 12:44 PM
Yes, I, too, noticed this; however, I have no idea what caused Coach K's angry reaction.

I'm pretty sure it was in relation to the timeout that Haith called with 14 seconds left, down 11. When shaking hands with Haith, it was pretty easy to read K's lips, and it appeared he said "That timeout was BS Frank"

Bluedevil114
01-03-2011, 12:52 PM
Nolan grabbed hi hip when he was called for a blocking foul in the lane as the Miami guy turned and ran into him.

I saw it more of Nolan grabbing his stomach. On the "charge" it looked like he took the hit in his gut. That is what I saw. He was upset too, he definitely was in position for the charge. Bad call by the refs. Kelly should have drawn a charge or two also. Hopefully I do not get fined for speaking about bad calls by the refs.

MChambers
01-03-2011, 12:52 PM
Any thoughts on bringing Christian Laettner in as a big man coach? Would he want the job?
I can't tell if you're being serious or not. After what Wojo did with Zoubs last year, do you really think we need another big man coach?

CLT Devil
01-03-2011, 12:57 PM
We had a close game for about 20 points, had one of our senior leaders bust out on a scoring tear and then never let Miami back into the game. Put simply, I never thought we were in jeopardy of letting them back in it and we didn't. Sure, one can find fault in any game, win or lose, but for us to beat a very game Miami team the way we did, which was by shutting down their guards and thus letting other players be in better position to get better shots, we found a gameplan and stuck to it and came out with a win to open ACC play. I am happy.

Some previous posts seem to think that other teams have a fear of Duke and we have already gained an edge before the game has started...I don't think you can really say that when it comes to the familiarality of conference play. I just don't buy into the thought that since a decent (but not good) ACC team played us hard and we only won by low double digits (after a few threes near the end that made the final score closer than the game was) that now other teams are going to start to believe that they can beat Duke, and conversely Duke starts to doubt themselves? This team does not seem to have the cockiness that '92 or even '99 had.

I was a little worried about all of the 'repeat' talk and even the TV specials on ESPN, magazine covers, pre-season hype, etc. But honestly, as a Duke fan and hopefully subsequently as a Duke player one gets used to that and realizes that every season plays out differently. Sure, there plenty of places to improve, but if you can't enjoy a win to start out the ACC schedule that did not feature any injured players, [I]glaring[I] weaknesses or even a close win then I feel for ya. I promised that this year I would enjoy every game and appreciate the season itself, regardless of how well we do come March. One of my all time favorite players, Singler, came back for his Swan Song season and I just want to soak it all in...now is a great time to be a Devils fan. Everyone is entitiled to their own view/analysis of every game, but I'll take that win last night in every game so long as continue to get better.

Also, I don't think you can really compare the progress of this team to last year's, or even in the 'Phases' that are so smartly broken down on this board.

As an analogy (For us Nascar Fans!): The Supercharger on our Racecar is broken and being worked on during pit stops every 5 laps or so. It may be broken for the whole race but it could be fixed for the last 20 laps. We can't just out-horsepower other cars in the straightaways like we did the first 20 laps, but rather we have to worry more about taking the best line, conserving fuel and tires and pitting at the right times and getting all the horsepower out of what is still a very powerful engine and dynamic car.

We still have one of the two or three best cars in the field but without our supercharger we can't afford to make as many mistakes coming out of the turns too tight or falling out of the draft. If we play race well we will be in position to win when the white flag falls, but other cars are now just as fast as ours so we need to be more careful.

Maybe that's not the most accurate analogy, but I think our car is still the best one on the track...we just need to get our NOS (Kyrie) back and until then (or not) we can still win but have to do the small things that the crew chief (K) has learned over years of racing and setting up cars.

Slingshot...ENGAGE! Okay, I've lost my mind and have lost everyone on here who does not following racing, but it's the best I could come up with on a Monday.

Lastly....I thought that once Ryan Reid graduated/left we could go one game without having a U player throw a punch/elbow at us...why does it always occur when we play them? I can't remember a game against Miami when there was not some sort of incident, although last night's with Miles was the least vicious I can remember.

gwlaw99
01-03-2011, 12:58 PM
I can't tell if you're being serious or not. After what Wojo did with Zoubs last year, do you really think we need another big man coach?

I am not even insinuating that we replace Wojo. Wojo is a a great coach when it comes to rebounding and defence, but offensively neither Plumlee is deveoping a reasonably good go to post move. Something I think would help us tremendously by forcing teams to double them down low.

PADukeMom
01-03-2011, 01:00 PM
I'm pretty sure it was in relation to the timeout that Haith called with 14 seconds left, down 11. When shaking hands with Haith, it was pretty easy to read K's lips, and it appeared he said "That timeout was BS Frank"

I was wondering the point of calling a time-out at that point as well. My words were probably harsher than K's.

Yes the foul called on Nolan was when he grabbed his hip. At first I thought it was kind of a BS call but it was the spark that ignited the beast. Of course I expect Kyle & Nolan to be huge this year; they are experienced senior champions. This is their time to shine however, in all honesty, I think Nolan is stepping it up more.

This is the ACC & while I might wish it, no game will be a cake walk.

I so want to get a Nolan Smith jersey but the season has started so I can't...sigh!

BlueintheFace
01-03-2011, 01:03 PM
The two most significant things I took from this game were:

(1) Mason Plumlee is regressing and in the doghouse

(2) K is slowly starting to integrate new sets to get Dawkins open shots.

superdave
01-03-2011, 01:13 PM
The two most significant things I took from this game were:

(1) Mason Plumlee is regressing and in the doghouse

(2) K is slowly starting to integrate new sets to get Dawkins open shots.

It does appear that Coach K sees Andre as the #3 scorer. He mentioned the coaches working with Andre to add some facets. I'd like to see the same thing done for Mason but I do wonder to what degree the player has to step up to ask for that kind of tutelage. I'd like to see some fire out of Mason, perhaps some determination to step up his level of play.

devilsadvocate85
01-03-2011, 01:20 PM
The two most significant things I took from this game were:

(1) Mason Plumlee is regressing and in the doghouse

(2) K is slowly starting to integrate new sets to get Dawkins open shots.

1) Mason Plumlee is clearly NOT in the doghouse and just because he doesn't score a bunch in some games is not an indication of regressing. Some teams focus on different defensive strategies just like Duke, which clearly was focused on not allowing Miami's guards to light us up. Mason had double digit rebounds and 4 blocks in 25 minutes of playing time. I'll admit that I'd love to see better post scoring from Mason, but he is a very good passer for a big man and he plays on what is unquestionably a perimeter oriented team. Our bigs are expected to defend, rebound and take opportunistic shots. Would we really want our bigs worried about their shot totals with the perimeter weapons on this team?

2) I don't believe there are any new sets, however, Dawkins has been putting in extra time working on expanding his offensive game and has clearly developed greater confidence in his ability to do more than be a stand-still jump shooter.

Duvall
01-03-2011, 01:23 PM
I am not even insinuating that we replace Wojo.

Well, who *do* you think Duke should fire to make room for a new assistant, then?

roywhite
01-03-2011, 01:25 PM
1) 2) I don't believe there are any new sets, however, Dawkins has been putting in extra time working on expanding his offensive game and has clearly developed greater confidence in his ability to do more than be a stand-still jump shooter.

On two occasions, Dawkins used a screen near the foul line to set up a 15-17 foot jumper, which he hit. Very encouraging. And he also utilized a pump fake one time when in the corner (shall we call that spot on the court Dawkins Corner at Coach K Court?) to shed his defender and go toward the basket. Also a real positive.

devilsadvocate85
01-03-2011, 01:32 PM
On two occasions, Dawkins used a screen near the foul line to set up a 15-17 foot jumper, which he hit. Very encouraging. And he also utilized a pump fake one time when in the corner (shall we call that spot on the court Dawkins Corner at Coach K Court?) to shed his defender and go toward the basket. Also a real positive.


Probably should have added that I love what I'm seeing from Dawkins all-around. He'd defending at a level that didn't even seem possible last season, he rebounds well for a guard and his offensive game has expanded to include many more options than last season as well. He was huge down the stretch last night.

sagegrouse
01-03-2011, 01:48 PM
I am not even insinuating that we replace Wojo. Wojo is a a great coach when it comes to rebounding and defence, but offensively neither Plumlee is deveoping a reasonably good go to post move. Something I think would help us tremendously by forcing teams to double them down low.

An ancient topic, so much that it is part of the Hammurabi, er, Throatybeard Code (http://www.duke.edu/~bct1/images/DBRHPR7.1asPDF.pdf)here on DBR. In other words,

1F, 1F, 1F, 1F, 1F, 1F, 1F, 1F

FWIW, I don't think anyone that made big bucks in the NBA for ten-plus years wants to sit on a college bench as an assistant or, quite frankly, as a head coach.

sagegrouse

Kedsy
01-03-2011, 01:54 PM
One thing nobody has mentioned so far is we didn't force that many turnovers and the TOs we did force did not lead to very many transition baskets. This is the real reason the margin of victory wasn't larger. Without the transition scoring, we didn't really have a way to get an easy basket. Nolan taking control was what won it, but I would categorize only a few of his baskets as "easy."


Lucky for us, they shot worse than a JV girls team would have against us from outside (slight sarcasm) and we were able to walk away with a win.

You don't think Duke's defense had something to do with Miami missing a lot of those shots?


With no Kyrie, and a solid opponent, it was interesting to see where the points would come from and how the defense would step up. Based on our recent games, including Miami, it appears we can expect around 40 points from the seniors on any given night. Clearly other teams will try to defend Kyle and Nolan and keep those points down.

With Dawkins showing continuing improvement he is likely to give us a lift with around 15 points and the combined bigs maybe 15 more. Kelly reminds me of a young Kevin McKale. He is an inch shorter but this is college ball and he has the same in game composure. The enigma is the lack of finesse and touch by the Plumlee brothers.With such great physical skills and their intense play, you would expect more points. Maybe it is something you either have of don't.

I don't expect Seth to take the collar in many games and he could easily give us between 5 and 10 points per game going forward.

Given this assessment, I would expect Duke to score in the 75 point range, unless and until Kyrie makes it back. That means to me that we will need to play very solid defense and are not likely to win by large margins. On any given night, another team may get hot and be able to pin a loss on us, but it will not be grounds for panic as this year's team is basically very sound and capable of winning against any opponent.

I expect the three (or four) bigs to continue to aggregate between 15 and 20 points a game, which using the rest of your numbers would put us between 75 and 85. Personally, I expect we'll be over 80 most of the time. Of course, when Kyrie gets back, look out scoreboard.


Like others, I sure would like to see Mason shoot better, both from the line and around the basket. However, what the team really needs from Mason IMO is rebounding and interior defense. On those counts, he is delivering, with 10 rebounds, 4 blocks, and other shots altered.

Thank you, Roy. People shouldn't judge our bigs based on points scored. The funny thing is if Mason hits a couple of the chippies he missed, then his line is 6 pts, 10 rebs, 4 blocks, and everyone is really happy. It's hard for me to judge his entire game on his finishing ability against a physical Miami team. Actually, my favorite stat from Mason last night was 25 minutes and only 2 fouls.


I think this game shows about 2 or 3 things.

1. Our defense is fine. Team Plumlee showed they can stop the other team's bigs,
and our perimeter D was pretty good too.

2. This team is clearly going to have problems attacking zones. Our ability to drive
and dish was almost non-existent, and the Plumlees didn't show any back to the basket offense either. Consequently, we had to rely too much on 3 point shooting, which (fortunately, last night) worked.

1. If our defense is fine (I'm not sold yet although I was pleased with last night's defensive performance), then our team is fine.

2. This is a really good point. Just sitting back and taking threes against a zone is often a recipe for problems. Hopefully Nolan will become more comfortable running the offense against a zone because we should see a lot of it until Kyrie comes back.


Of course I expect Kyle & Nolan to be huge this year; they are experienced senior champions. This is their time to shine however, in all honesty, I think Nolan is stepping it up more.

Nolan looks like a fabulous college player out there, but I think Kyle looks like a pro among amateurs. True, he sometimes shoots a bit too early in the shot clock, and last night his shooting percentage wasn't great, but overall he's been fantastic (and his season-long shooting percentage is still 40% from 3-land and 47% overall). It's funny, but for a guy who was being touted as a NPOY candidate, I think people are underrating Kyle now.


As an analogy (For us Nascar Fans!): The Supercharger on our Racecar is broken and being worked on during pit stops every 5 laps or so. It may be broken for the whole race but it could be fixed for the last 20 laps. We can't just out-horsepower other cars in the straightaways like we did the first 20 laps, but rather we have to worry more about taking the best line, conserving fuel and tires and pitting at the right times and getting all the horsepower out of what is still a very powerful engine and dynamic car.

We still have one of the two or three best cars in the field but without our supercharger we can't afford to make as many mistakes coming out of the turns too tight or falling out of the draft. If we play race well we will be in position to win when the white flag falls, but other cars are now just as fast as ours so we need to be more careful.

I have no idea what you're talking about, but it sounds about right.

Newton_14
01-03-2011, 01:59 PM
Ryan, Andre and especially Nolan had tremendous games.

Reading some of the comments about the Plumlee's however I will have to disagree about them playing well. They were a combined 3-12 from the field. Neither could stop Reggie Johnson inside who played only 23 minutes because of foul trouble. Johnson was 9-10 with 22 points. Thanks goodness he was sitting on the bench for much of the game. His farthest shot from the basket was four feet. One on one the Plumlee's could not stop him but many of his points came from Mason and Miles not switching back to Johnson at the top of the key. Johnson rolled to the basket completely unattested with Mason and Miles standing at the top of the key with a glazed look in their eyes. One of the hardest things about coaching is having a player stay within their limitations. That is Mason and Miles not taking ten to fifteen foot jump shots. We do not need any more shooters. As wacky as Dennis Rodman was as a player, I wish they would watch film of Rodman. The guy was a tenacious rebounder and would not be caught taking a jump shot. The Plumlee's are tremendous defenders and shot blockers on weak side help but need work on defending one on one. I love the guys. Their enthusiasm and athletic ability are tremendous. They will be the key IMO for repeating.

Sorry but these two bolded points are just offbase and wrong. On the high pick and roll it is the job of the big to hedge out on the guard and force him further out. When the pic setter releases, it is NOT the responsibility of the big hedging out to defend his guy releasing down the lane. It is the responsibility of the 2nd big to pick up the center rolling down the lane. That is how Duke defends that play so criticizing Miles and Mason for doing exactly what they are supposed to there is unfair.

As for the 10-15 foot jumper, Miles absolutely has the green light to take that shot. He was very successful last year making the mid-range jumper and the staff wants him to take those shots. Mason has struggled with his shot so far, but he is a work in progress. He took and made a very nice mid-range jumper from the elbow of the foul line in the UNC-G game. That was a good shot because it came in rythym. The shot he took last night from the foul line area, was a bad shot, because it did not come in rythym. End result was it got partially blocked.

gam7
01-03-2011, 02:00 PM
FWIW, I don't think anyone that made big bucks in the NBA for ten-plus years wants to sit on a college bench as an assistant or, quite frankly, as a head coach.

sagegrouse

"I disagree," says Isiah Thomas.

MChambers
01-03-2011, 02:16 PM
"I disagree," says Isiah Thomas.
Joining him, in dissent, Rod Strickland. Where is Reggie Theus these days?

I bet we could list names for a while.

While I loved Laettner as a player, I'd be skeptical about him as a coach. Moreover, as an offensive player, he had something of a low post game as a freshman, but over the years he became more of a perimeter player. Also, I'd say that his best attribute offensively was his shooting, not his moves. Not sure how he'd teach the Plumlees about shooting.

mapei
01-03-2011, 02:18 PM
Joining him, in dissent, Rod Strickland. Where is Reggie Theus these days?

I bet we could list names for a while.

While I loved Laettner as a player, I'd be skeptical about him as a coach. Moreover, as an offensive player, he had something of a low post game as a freshman, but over the years he became more of a perimeter player. Also, I'd say that his best attribute offensively was his shooting, not his moves. Not sure how he'd teach the Plumlees about shooting.

As I recall people skills were not among Christian's strong points.

Lord Ash
01-03-2011, 02:34 PM
That is putting it nicely.

There is nothing that I've seen from Christian to indicate that A) he would be an effective coach and B) that he would be an effective low-post coach. Just because someone is a good basketball player does NOT mean they are a good basketball TEACHER. Two very, very different skills.

aro24
01-03-2011, 02:39 PM
As I recall people skills were not among Christian's strong points.

HAHAHAHA :D

I laughed out loud at this one. I have a feeling that Aminu Timberlake would agree with you.

ARo24

GODUKEGO
01-03-2011, 02:44 PM
Sorry but these two bolded points are just off base and wrong. On the high pick and roll it is the job of the big to hedge out on the guard and force him further out. When the pic setter releases, it is NOT the responsibility of the big hedging out to defend his guy releasing down the lane. It is the responsibility of the 2nd big to pick up the center rolling down the lane. That is how Duke defends that play so criticizing Miles and Mason for doing exactly what they are supposed to there is unfair.

As for the 10-15 foot jumper, Miles absolutely has the green light to take that shot. He was very successful last year making the mid-range jumper and the staff wants him to take those shots. Mason has struggled with his shot so far, but he is a work in progress. He took and made a very nice mid-range jumper from the elbow of the foul line in the UNC-G game. That was a good shot because it came in rythym. The shot he took last night from the foul line area, was a bad shot, because it did not come in rythym. End result was it got partially blocked.

If you think it is in the best interest of the Devils for them to be shooting 10-15 jump shots, we will agree to disagree big time. One can not look at their field goal percentage for this because they have alot of ally oops dunks that are breath taking and put back dunks. All one has to look at is their free throw percentage this year, 40% and 60%. This is a set, take as much time as you please 15 foot shot that they can not make consistently. I will start keeping a stat of their field goal percentages on shots over ten feet in the future. If it is over 30% for the year, I will fess-up and apologize.

Regarding their defense look at how many times they did not shift back to cover Johnson, They and Seth or Nolan were both covering their guards at the top of the key. It is most certainly their job to get back and cover their player when our guards are covering the man with the ball. Miami was obviously exploiting our defense and remember Johnson was 9-10 in 23 minutes with a shot not farther away than 4 feet.

PADukeMom
01-03-2011, 02:47 PM
Nolan looks like a fabulous college player out there, but I think Kyle looks like a pro among amateurs. True, he sometimes shoots a bit too early in the shot clock, and last night his shooting percentage wasn't great, but overall he's been fantastic (and his season-long shooting percentage is still 40% from 3-land and 47% overall). It's funny, but for a guy who was being touted as a NPOY candidate, I think people are underrating Kyle now.



Don't care about the NBA but I do agree that Kyle is being overlooked right now. Same thing happened last year. Hope the same thing happens this year. It all comes down to how tired those legs get once the second 1/2 of the ACC begins.

devilsadvocate85
01-03-2011, 02:56 PM
If you think it is in the best interest of the Devils for them to be shooting 10-15 jump shots, we will agree to disagree big time. One can not look at their field goal percentage for this because they have alot of ally oops dunks that are breath taking and put back dunks. All one has to look at is their free throw percentage this year, 40% and 60%. This is a set, take as much time as you please 15 foot shot that they can not make consistently. I will start keeping a stat of their field goal percentages on shots over ten feet in the future. If it is over 30% for the year, I will fess-up and apologize.

Regarding their defense look at how many times they did not shift back to cover Johnson, They and Seth or Nolan were both covering their guards at the top of the key. It is most certainly their job to get back and cover their player when our guards are covering the man with the ball. Miami was obviously exploiting our defense and remember Johnson was 9-10 in 23 minutes with a shot not farther away than 4 feet.

Once again, our defensive strategy was designed to limit the scoring of their guards at the risk of allowing Johnson some opportunities and based on the shooting of their guards, it seems like our focus on them worked. Defense is a team effort and our priority and focus was to shut down their guards.

gam7
01-03-2011, 02:56 PM
Joining him, in dissent, Rod Strickland. Where is Reggie Theus these days?

I bet we could list names for a while.



Yeah, Danny Manning is another guy who immediately comes to mind.

roywhite
01-03-2011, 02:56 PM
Don't care about the NBA but I do agree that Kyle is being overlooked right now. Same thing happened last year. Hope the same thing happens this year. It all comes down to how tired those legs get once the second 1/2 of the ACC begins.

Kyle and Nolan each played the full 40 minutes.

Hard to believe the "Minutes Police" have not called this to our attention yet. :)

moonpie23
01-03-2011, 03:04 PM
Kyle and Nolan each played the full 40 minutes.

Hard to believe the "Minutes Police" have not called this to our attention yet. :)

oh they are out over on IC.....huge thread...



btw, was i the only one that thought we were pretty lucky on a LOT of the calls?

sagegrouse
01-03-2011, 03:06 PM
Originally posted by MChambers
And
Originally Posted by gam7 "I disagree," says Isiah Thomas.
Joining him, in dissent, Rod Strickland. Where is Reggie Theus these days?

I bet we could list names for a while.

While I loved Laettner as a player, I'd be skeptical about him as a coach. Moreover, as an offensive player, he had something of a low post game as a freshman, but over the years he became more of a perimeter player. Also, I'd say that his best attribute offensively was his shooting, not his moves. Not sure how he'd teach the Plumlees about shooting.


I'd be interested in the list of established NBA stars coaching college. There are two obvious questions: Do they need the job? Or did they just want the job?

sagegrouse
'And BTW Laettner was a very good post player his last two years. There is a long list of guys he fouled out, including Shaq'

MChambers
01-03-2011, 03:14 PM
If you think it is in the best interest of the Devils for them to be shooting 10-15 jump shots, we will agree to disagree big time. One can not look at their field goal percentage for this because they have alot of ally oops dunks that are breath taking and put back dunks. All one has to look at is their free throw percentage this year, 40% and 60%. This is a set, take as much time as you please 15 foot shot that they can not make consistently. I will start keeping a stat of their field goal percentages on shots over ten feet in the future. If it is over 30% for the year, I will fess-up and apologize.
The point isn't whether they are successful shooting those shots now, it's whether they are successful later in the year. Players grow over the course of a season (Eliot Williams, Brian Zoubek, etc.).

Also, the coaching staff thinks that the Plumlees should be taking those shots, according to knowledgeable persons here, so you will have to disagree with the coaches as well.

MChambers
01-03-2011, 03:17 PM
'And BTW Laettner was a very good post player his last two years. There is a long list of guys he fouled out, including Shaq'
You could be right. I really don't remember much of a low post game from Laettner, but it is probably because my memory is full with other plays from 1991 and 1992. OTOH, just because opposing players fouled out doesn't mean that Laettner had a low post game. I have very fond memories of him taking Eric Montross off the dribble.

If you want a player with a low post game, maybe we should ask Mr. Brand to become coach when he retires.

roywhite
01-03-2011, 03:28 PM
You could be right. I really don't remember much of a low post game from Laettner, but it is probably because my memory is full with other plays from 1991 and 1992. OTOH, just because opposing players fouled out doesn't mean that Laettner had a low post game. I have very fond memories of him taking Eric Montross off the dribble.

If you want a player with a low post game, maybe we should ask Mr. Brand to become coach when he retires.

And it wouldn't hurt if his pupils had huge, sticky hands and an ample backside, like Elton.

Newton_14
01-03-2011, 03:53 PM
If you think it is in the best interest of the Devils for them to be shooting 10-15 jump shots, we will agree to disagree big time. One can not look at their field goal percentage for this because they have alot of ally oops dunks that are breath taking and put back dunks. All one has to look at is their free throw percentage this year, 40% and 60%. This is a set, take as much time as you please 15 foot shot that they can not make consistently. I will start keeping a stat of their field goal percentages on shots over ten feet in the future. If it is over 30% for the year, I will fess-up and apologize.

Regarding their defense look at how many times they did not shift back to cover Johnson, They and Seth or Nolan were both covering their guards at the top of the key. It is most certainly their job to get back and cover their player when our guards are covering the man with the ball. Miami was obviously exploiting our defense and remember Johnson was 9-10 in 23 minutes with a shot not farther away than 4 feet.

Do you not recall the numerous mid-range shots Miles made last year? Mason is a different story but, Miles has the green light to take the mid-range jumper when it presents itself. Certainly not the focal point of our offense, but when the opportunity presents itself Miles can and will take that shot.

As for the defense, again, it is the responsibility of the help defender, not the hedger to cover the screener who rolls back to the basket. That is how Duke chooses to defend that play.

Even on the play in the corner with Mason and Johnson, last night, where Mason gave him the baseline, it was Ryan that did not rotate over even though he was standing right there as was Nolan. Both stood and watched Johnson get the dunk. Ryan was late rotating a couple other times, but no one seems to notice his mistakes. I am not bashing Ryan there either. He is getting better game by game, and made several good plays last night.

I just find it incredibly unfair when someone criticizes a kid for doing exactly what he is supposed to do. Our bigs that hedge rely on the help defender by design. That is a staff decision. When the mid-range jumper is available to Miles, he has instructions to shoot the ball. Again a staff decision. So blame the help defender for the breakdown (Or applaud the opponent for executing well) or blame the staff for their decisions.

arnie
01-03-2011, 03:59 PM
I am not even insinuating that we replace Wojo. Wojo is a a great coach when it comes to rebounding and defence, but offensively neither Plumlee is deveoping a reasonably good go to post move. Something I think would help us tremendously by forcing teams to double them down low.

We haven't had any appreciable low post offense since Shelden Williams left. It points out the incredible job K did last year in winning a National Championship without it. I want the Plumlees to develop "go to" moves, but maybe thats not part of the overall plan. Agree with the above post about Wojo.

sagegrouse
01-03-2011, 04:00 PM
Do you not recall the numerous mid-range shots Miles made last year? Mason is a different story but, Miles has the green light to take the mid-range jumper when it presents itself. Certainly not the focal point of our offense, but when the opportunity presents itself Miles can and will take that shot.

As for the defense, again, it is the responsibility of the help defender, not the hedger to cover the screener who rolls back to the basket. That is how Duke chooses to defend that play.

Even on the play in the corner with Mason and Johnson, last night, where Mason gave him the baseline, it was Ryan that did not rotate over even though he was standing right there as was Nolan. Both stood and watched Johnson get the dunk. Ryan was late rotating a couple other times, but no one seems to notice his mistakes. I am not bashing Ryan there either. He is getting better game by game, and made several good plays last night.

I just find it incredibly unfair when someone criticizes a kid for doing exactly what he is supposed to do. Our bigs that hedge rely on the help defender by design. That is a staff decision. When the mid-range jumper is available to Miles, he has instructions to shoot the ball. Again a staff decision. So blame the help defender for the breakdown (Or applaud the opponent for executing well) or blame the staff for their decisions.

I would tend to discount the defense in the last 6-7 minutes. We changed our approach to the game to wrap up a victory, not try to turn it into a rout. Duke was stringing out the clock on offense (very effectively, I might add, as we were scoring nearly every possession) and then guarding the perimeter and trying not to foul on defense. I would give the defensive execution at the end of the game about a C+ because it was too passive on the inside, although pretty solid outside. And it is certainly unfair to single out Mason or any other player.

Coach will certainly fine tune what the team is doing in these circumstances.

sagegrouse

Newton_14
01-03-2011, 04:04 PM
I would tend to discount the defense in the last 6-7 minutes. We changed our approach to the game to wrap up a victory, not try to turn it into a rout. Duke was stringing out the clock on offense (very effectively, I might add, as we were scoring nearly every possession) and then guarding the perimeter and trying not to foul on defense. I would give the defensive execution at the end of the game about a C+ because it was too passive on the inside, although pretty solid outside. And it is certainly unfair to single out Mason or any other player.

Coach will certainly fine tune what the team is doing in these circumstances.

sagegrouse

Agree. When we took the air out of the ball the lead was 16. From there K was content to manage the clock and prevent 3's while sacrificing 2's if we had to. As you indicate it worked.

Also, earlier in the thread, someone asked what K was mad about at the end. It was the hard screen on Nolan on Miami's last 3 point basket. Nolan got knocked down by the screener and K took offense it seems.

CameronBornAndBred
01-03-2011, 05:34 PM
Here's a few of the 350 photos I took last night. When I'm lucky enough to be in Cameron, I do my best to make it last! (Plus there's a bunch of paintings in my future now.)

http://www.facebook.com/album.php?aid=273349&id=330893144629&saved#!/album.php?aid=273349&id=330893144629

Bob Green
01-03-2011, 05:36 PM
Nolan Smith has been named ACC Player-of-the-Week:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/010311aaa.html

CameronBornAndBred
01-03-2011, 06:07 PM
Nolan Smith has been named ACC Player-of-the-Week:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/010311aaa.html

Only because Kyrie was in a cast.;)

Well deserved, he'll have a few more this year I think.

DU82
01-03-2011, 06:19 PM
I saw this too...and it appeared as though Haith asked K while shaking hands what he was referring to...almost like "hey, what did one of my kids do...if it was something dirty, let me address it".......K appeared to move past it pretty quickly though. Just my pure speculation.....I would love to be able to hear what those guys say to each other.

ARo24

Number 45 for Miami set a moving, hard screen on Nolan during their last play/basket. It appeared to have the intent to hurt Nolan. Coach K, during the timeout, tried to get the wonderful officiating crew (yes, that is sarcasm) to answer why that wasn't a foul. After thetimeout, Coach then asked Haith about it, and then during the handshakes asked him again about it. It appeared from across the court that Haith nodded, which said to me that he would address it with his player.

dukelifer
01-03-2011, 06:55 PM
That is putting it nicely.

There is nothing that I've seen from Christian to indicate that A) he would be an effective coach and B) that he would be an effective low-post coach. Just because someone is a good basketball player does NOT mean they are a good basketball TEACHER. Two very, very different skills.

Really? Two summers ago, he worked with Zoubs and Miles. Zoubs had a break out year. Maybe Christian helped to light a fire- who knows.

4decadedukie
01-03-2011, 06:56 PM
Nolan Smith has been named ACC Player-of-the-Week:

http://www.theacc.com/sports/m-baskbl/spec-rel/010311aaa.html


That's great, and obviously entirely deserved.

lotusland
01-03-2011, 10:20 PM
Yeah, Danny Manning is another guy who immediately comes to mind.

Johnny Dawkins

gofurman
01-03-2011, 10:58 PM
I did respond to your request for specifics once before but here you go again....

We have players showing up in lala land in January for one. It is "VERY" late in the season for that. It is also "VERY" late in the season to have post players that cannot hit a 3 ft open bank shot, and who also resort to a defended fade away jumper in the paint, when he could have had an easy chip shot. We couldn't stop their one post player who was in foul trouble most of the game. We relied on one player who had a really good game to win by 11 against a team we should have beat by at least 20.

Someone said that it was a few missed shots away from being a yawner...It was also a few made shots away from being a loss, and if a few of those blocks were called fouls like they should have been, it could have been a loss. If both of those happen you are right...it would have been a yawner (for Miami fans).

All conference wins are good. This is a team we always struggle with it seems. Haith's zone gives us fits.

That being said I will agree the learning from this game is that we do need a big who can command some offense down low. we need one of the plums to step up as a dependable 10 point post plyer

ncexnyc
01-03-2011, 11:03 PM
FSN broadcasted a replay of the game earlier this afternoon and I just finished rewatching the game.

I'm surprised no one mentioned the steal by Seth where he cruised for the basket, only to get caught from behind.

I've got to ease up off of Mason. On the play right before the first half where he took that terrible fade away I can't really fault him. Kyle fed him the ball perfectly on the block, but for some odd reason Miles was directly behind him, which is why Mason decided to wheel into the lane and then fade away. The other play I gave him some grief over was the play where RJ rolled in for a wide open lay-up. A couple of plays prior to that Mason and Kyle did a great job of sealing a Miami player along the baseline, but Ryan was a tad slow dropping down on the player who got the feed for an easy basket. On the Reggie Rumble play, Mason went high on Reggie as if expecting another player to drop in down low. Watching that play over it appears Nolan was the closest, with Ryan directly behind him and it appears that they pulled the old Alfonse and Gaston baseball routine.

BlueintheFace
01-04-2011, 12:56 AM
1) Mason Plumlee is clearly NOT in the doghouse and just because he doesn't score a bunch in some games is not an indication of regressing. Some teams focus on different defensive strategies just like Duke, which clearly was focused on not allowing Miami's guards to light us up. Mason had double digit rebounds and 4 blocks in 25 minutes of playing time. I'll admit that I'd love to see better post scoring from Mason, but he is a very good passer for a big man and he plays on what is unquestionably a perimeter oriented team. Our bigs are expected to defend, rebound and take opportunistic shots. Would we really want our bigs worried about their shot totals with the perimeter weapons on this team?

2) I don't believe there are any new sets, however, Dawkins has been putting in extra time working on expanding his offensive game and has clearly developed greater confidence in his ability to do more than be a stand-still jump shooter.


1) Mason IS in the doghouse. He has lost his starting spot, been screamed at on the bench a number of times in the last few games (including last night) and is clearly back to making mistakes many had hoped he had left behind... silly fouls, poor hedges on PNR, not boxing out (though he has never really done that anyways). Most importantly, I believe his effort level has not been what the team needs or the coaching staff wants. Mason isn't in the doghouse for his offensive game issues (though I'm sure they contribute), he is in the doghouse for not doing the important things on defense (fighting for rebounds, not committing silly fouls, and rotating in time on drives).

The kid has obviously had a tough time with his game since Kyrie went down, but I think it goes beyond offensive production here.

2) Well, Coach K ran the same (NEW) screen sequence on two consecutive plays in the second half, (first on the left, then on the right) both of which resulted in Dawkins taking a handoff from Miles at the top of the key and scoring. The first time he took a step in and hit the midrange. The second time he shot the three over Miles.

Now, on top of that, Dawkins has expanded his game off the shot fake. He looks comfortable shooting the midrange, driving baseline for the floater, and attacking the rim. We have seen this a number of times this season now and again last night.

Still, I can't see how those two consecutive plays with the same screen sequences, presenting the same opportunities (coming out of a stoppage if I call correctly) and with the same results were not called plays. I think K is looking to utilize Dawkins more with play calling since Dawk does not have the ball handling ability to create much by himself.

Kedsy
01-04-2011, 01:34 AM
Mason IS in the doghouse. He has lost his starting spot, been screamed at on the bench a number of times in the last few games (including last night) and is clearly back to making mistakes many had hoped he had left behind... silly fouls, poor hedges on PNR, not boxing out (though he has never really done that anyways).

I don't think Mason losing his starting job is valid evidence of his being in the "doghouse." In fact, I have no idea if K has a doghouse, and if he does I can't tell if Mason is in it. My guess is you don't really have any idea, either, but perhaps you do. From watching on TV, it hasn't seemed to me that Mason is being screamed at more than any other player -- but I'll trust your word on it if you've been attending the games and have observed this.

One thing that hurts your credibility is you saying Mason is committing too many silly fouls. He has only exceeded three fouls in one game so far this season, has committed zero fouls in three games and two or fewer fouls in eight games out of 13. Since Kyrie has been out, Mason is averaging just 2.0 fouls per game. Also, you complain about him not boxing out, but he's our leading rebounder, by a lot. And his rebounding has continued to be strong since Kyrie has been out; without Kyrie, Mason has been averaging 12.92 rebounds per 40 minutes, which is a pretty good rate.

In short, while some of your criticisms may be valid and certainly Mason has room for improvement, it seems to me you're watching Mason through the filter of your preconceptions and that your observations are not necessarily accurate.

johnb
01-04-2011, 09:25 AM
I'm pretty sure it was in relation to the timeout that Haith called with 14 seconds left, down 11. When shaking hands with Haith, it was pretty easy to read K's lips, and it appeared he said "That timeout was BS Frank"


I love Coach, but I'd take issue with one coach calling out another coach's decision to call a timeout. If Haith called the timeout to call together the troops and say, "hey, we just played a tough game in Cameron. Next time we're here, we're going to beat them," wouldn't that be worthy of a 30 second timeout?

PADukeMom
01-04-2011, 01:57 PM
Kyle and Nolan each played the full 40 minutes.

Hard to believe the "Minutes Police" have not called this to our attention yet. :)


Nolan & Kyle or 21 or 22...they are too young to get tired;) I judge how this team is going by looking at how quickly they get to the sidelines the end of January into the beginning of February. After the G-town loss last year is when I predicted nets in Indy.

Gewebe14
01-04-2011, 02:55 PM
I love Coach, but I'd take issue with one coach calling out another coach's decision to call a timeout. If Haith called the timeout to call together the troops and say, "hey, we just played a tough game in Cameron. Next time we're here, we're going to beat them," wouldn't that be worthy of a 30 second timeout?

I would be surprised if this was the reason too. I remember a certain game that shouldn't be mentioned (it was right before the move of a certain important someone to point guard 2 yrs ago) where K did a same thing with a much larger margin

DU82
01-04-2011, 03:02 PM
I love Coach, but I'd take issue with one coach calling out another coach's decision to call a timeout. If Haith called the timeout to call together the troops and say, "hey, we just played a tough game in Cameron. Next time we're here, we're going to beat them," wouldn't that be worthy of a 30 second timeout?

As mentioned in an earlier post, Coach K wasn't talking to Haith about the timeout, it was about the moving screen that number 45 (still haven't bothered to find his name) put on Nolan during that last play. I could lip-read enough from across the court to know that's what was being discussed, first with the refs, and then with Haith.

BlueintheFace
01-04-2011, 03:09 PM
I don't think Mason losing his starting job is valid evidence of his being in the "doghouse." In fact, I have no idea if K has a doghouse, and if he does I can't tell if Mason is in it. My guess is you don't really have any idea, either, but perhaps you do. From watching on TV, it hasn't seemed to me that Mason is being screamed at more than any other player -- but I'll trust your word on it if you've been attending the games and have observed this.

One thing that hurts your credibility is you saying Mason is committing too many silly fouls. He has only exceeded three fouls in one game so far this season, has committed zero fouls in three games and two or fewer fouls in eight games out of 13. Since Kyrie has been out, Mason is averaging just 2.0 fouls per game. Also, you complain about him not boxing out, but he's our leading rebounder, by a lot. And his rebounding has continued to be strong since Kyrie has been out; without Kyrie, Mason has been averaging 12.92 rebounds per 40 minutes, which is a pretty good rate.

In short, while some of your criticisms may be valid and certainly Mason has room for improvement, it seems to me you're watching Mason through the filter of your preconceptions and that your observations are not necessarily accurate.

I don't think losing his starting position is enough evidence alone either. That is why i did not cite it as my only evidence. However, one would be seriously stretching the truth if one argued that Ryan Kelly or Miles Plumlee simply took a big enough step forward to displace Mason from the starting lineup with quality of play.

Last game Mason pouted on the bench rather than cheer on his teammate's good play at one point and Chris Collins visibly lit in to him. Additionally, in each of the past 3 games I have heard from people present at the games that Mason has been continuously yelled by the staff. Also, yes, I have heard from some that might know about K's doghouses, that Mason is currently in one.

One thing that hurts your credibility is that you are equating foul count with what kind of a foul is committed. Luckily I did not make the same mistake.

Class of '94
01-04-2011, 03:36 PM
I don't think losing his starting position is enough evidence alone either. That is why i did not cite it as my only evidence. However, one would be seriously stretching the truth if one argued that Ryan Kelly or Miles Plumlee simply took a big enough step forward to displace Mason from the starting lineup with quality of play.

Last game Mason pouted on the bench rather than cheer on his teammate's good play at one point and Chris Collins visibly lit in to him. Additionally, in each of the past 3 games I have heard from people present at the games that Mason has been continuously yelled by the staff. Also, yes, I have heard from some that might know about K's doghouses, that Mason is currently in one.

One thing that hurts your credibility is that you are equating foul count with what kind of a foul is committed. Luckily I did not make the same mistake.

I'm not going to get into whether or not Mason is in the doghouse; but I don't think it's a stretch to say that Miles and Ryan are playing better than Mason right now. They are......as evidenced by their recent numbers. Right now, IMO Miles and Ryan are playing and defending with more energy and passion than Miles is; and because of that, they should start over Mason. I think Mason has the most talent of the 3; but he has to work on getting through whatever funk or challenges he's dealing with right now.

BlueintheFace
01-04-2011, 03:49 PM
I'm not going to get into whether or not Mason is in the doghouse; but I don't think it's a stretch to say that Miles and Ryan are playing better than Mason right now. They are......as evidenced by their recent numbers. Right now, IMO Miles and Ryan are playing and defending with more energy and passion than Miles is; and because of that, they should start over Mason. I think Mason has the most talent of the 3; but he has to work on getting through whatever funk or challenges he's dealing with right now.

I agree with this entire statement. My point was that Mason lost his starting spot more than somebody earned it by improving significantly.

-jk
01-04-2011, 05:15 PM
I agree with this entire statement. My point was that Mason lost his starting spot more than somebody earned it by improving significantly.

I don't think there's any way we can know this without having a lot more info. We don't go to team practices and meetings. What we see on court isn't even complete because we don't know what the coaches have asked them to do.

-jk

BlueintheFace
01-04-2011, 05:28 PM
I don't think there's any way we can know this without having a lot more info. We don't go to team practices and meetings. What we see on court isn't even complete because we don't know what the coaches have asked them to do.

-jk

There is no way to know for certain, that is true. However, if you think back to other times when established starters have been sent to the bench, you quite frequently encounter circumstances where the person replacing the previous starter in the starting lineup has made a big leap forward in play. This is almost always quite clear to us, the fans.

Now, does anybody want to say Miles or Ryan have made a big leap forward in the last few weeks? Both have been playing decently all season, but no. I do not think anybody would claim as much. So, you have one starter who's quality of play has gone down over the last 4 or 5 games and two players who have not taken any kind of leap forward in quality of play in the last 4 or 5 games.

I think it is fair to say, although admittedly without 100% certainty (which can never be obtained when analyzing lineup and minutes changes on the team), that Mason has lost his starting spot rather than Ryan or Miles have taken leaps and bounds forward and grabbed it (see- most recently Zoubek).

Kedsy
01-04-2011, 06:04 PM
One thing that hurts your credibility is that you are equating foul count with what kind of a foul is committed. Luckily I did not make the same mistake.

Everyone commits what looks like a silly foul from time to time. It's only really an issue if they get into foul trouble because of it or if it puts an opponent on the line at a key time in the game, neither of which have occurred recently with regards to Mason. He only had two fouls last night, and only one of them could reasonably be categorized as "silly." If you think that Mason committing one arguably silly foul justifies your statement that he "is clearly back to making mistakes many had hoped he had left behind... silly fouls..." then unluckily I guess that's your mistake instead of the other.

Kedsy
01-04-2011, 06:34 PM
There is no way to know for certain, that is true. However, if you think back to other times when established starters have been sent to the bench, you quite frequently encounter circumstances where the person replacing the previous starter in the starting lineup has made a big leap forward in play. This is almost always quite clear to us, the fans.

Now, does anybody want to say Miles or Ryan have made a big leap forward in the last few weeks? Both have been playing decently all season, but no. I do not think anybody would claim as much. So, you have one starter who's quality of play has gone down over the last 4 or 5 games and two players who have not taken any kind of leap forward in quality of play in the last 4 or 5 games.

I think it is fair to say, although admittedly without 100% certainty (which can never be obtained when analyzing lineup and minutes changes on the team), that Mason has lost his starting spot rather than Ryan or Miles have taken leaps and bounds forward and grabbed it (see- most recently Zoubek).

I think you're oversimplifying. There are many factors that might go into who starts and who doesn't. In 2001, for example, when Carlos Boozer got hurt, Coach K made two changes to the starting lineup, not only replacing Boozer with Casey Sanders but also replacing Nate James with Chris Duhon. I've never heard anybody argue that Nate lost his starting gig because he was playing poorly; it's just the team was playing a somewhat different style without Boozer.

Similarly, Coach K inserted Miles into the starting lineup this season after Kyrie got hurt, presumably because he fit better into our style of play without Kyrie. He also put Andre into Kyrie's spot. After two games of that lineup, he replaced Mason with Ryan and he replaced Andre with Seth. Are you arguing that Andre played poorly and "lost" his starting job, or that Seth took leaps and bounds forward and grabbed the starting spot? I'd say neither of those things happened. Instead, I think Coach K liked the combination of Ryan teaming with Seth and Miles better than the alternatives. I don't think it had anything to do with Andre's play and my guess is it didn't have much if anything to do with Mason's play, either.

Now, if you tell me (as you have) that you've seen Mason sulking on the bench because he's no longer starting, then I suppose it's also possible that losing his starting job has led to his (allegedly) poor play, rather than the reverse.

Incidentally, Brian Zoubek played at a similar level for the entire season last year. His numbers went up when Coach K inserted him in the starting lineup and gave him more minutes, but his stats per minute weren't that different from what they'd been all season. You could argue that Z figured out how to stay out of foul trouble so he could receive all those minutes, but I'm sure that didn't happen overnight, and I don't think he moved into the starting lineup because he took "leaps and bounds forward and grabbed it." My recollection is Z was inserted into the starting lineup because Lance got hurt the game before and Coach K felt he needed a steadier presence if Lance couldn't go full speed. Of course, after Z played his career best game in his first start, it made sense to keep him in the starting lineup.

Newton_14
01-04-2011, 08:03 PM
I don't think losing his starting position is enough evidence alone either. That is why i did not cite it as my only evidence. However, one would be seriously stretching the truth if one argued that Ryan Kelly or Miles Plumlee simply took a big enough step forward to displace Mason from the starting lineup with quality of play.

Last game Mason pouted on the bench rather than cheer on his teammate's good play at one point and Chris Collins visibly lit in to him.

Just out of curiosity, how do you know what prompted Collins to light into Mason?

After seeing it live at the game, and then seeing it again when I watched on DVR, I have an idea of what prompted it, but certainly not enough to come on here and declare for sure why Collins did that.

hurley1
01-05-2011, 12:27 AM
I think you're oversimplifying. There are many factors that might go into who starts and who doesn't. In 2001, for example, when Carlos Boozer got hurt, Coach K made two changes to the starting lineup, not only replacing Boozer with Casey Sanders but also replacing Nate James with Chris Duhon. I've never heard anybody argue that Nate lost his starting gig because he was playing poorly; it's just the team was playing a somewhat different style without Boozer.

Similarly, Coach K inserted Miles into the starting lineup this season after Kyrie got hurt, presumably because he fit better into our style of play without Kyrie. He also put Andre into Kyrie's spot. After two games of that lineup, he replaced Mason with Ryan and he replaced Andre with Seth. Are you arguing that Andre played poorly and "lost" his starting job, or that Seth took leaps and bounds forward and grabbed the starting spot? I'd say neither of those things happened. Instead, I think Coach K liked the combination of Ryan teaming with Seth and Miles better than the alternatives. I don't think it had anything to do with Andre's play and my guess is it didn't have much if anything to do with Mason's play, either.

Now, if you tell me (as you have) that you've seen Mason sulking on the bench because he's no longer starting, then I suppose it's also possible that losing his starting job has led to his (allegedly) poor play, rather than the reverse.

Incidentally, Brian Zoubek played at a similar level for the entire season last year. His numbers went up when Coach K inserted him in the starting lineup and gave him more minutes, but his stats per minute weren't that different from what they'd been all season. You could argue that Z figured out how to stay out of foul trouble so he could receive all those minutes, but I'm sure that didn't happen overnight, and I don't think he moved into the starting lineup because he took "leaps and bounds forward and grabbed it." My recollection is Z was inserted into the starting lineup because Lance got hurt the game before and Coach K felt he needed a steadier presence if Lance couldn't go full speed. Of course, after Z played his career best game in his first start, it made sense to keep him in the starting lineup.

So many weapons and so many ways to use them. That's a good problem to have.