Rutgers vs UNC game thread

[diveonthefloor]

Very sloppy beginning.

4-2 UNC nearing the first tv timeout....lotsa turnovers

[diveonthefloor]

Wow, this looks more like a high school game.

[diveonthefloor]

Zeller with the biggest flop I've seen all year....and the ref bought it!!!! :p

[Bluedevil114]

North Carolina does not appear to have an chemistry on offense. All they do is try to beat you down the court throw it around and then jack up a three. All I heard before the season was how great Bullock's shot is. Every game I have seen shows me a kid that shoots the ball short more times than not. Andre Dawnkins is much better than Bullock. I just do not get Harrison Barnes. He does not seem enthusiastic on the court. They showed him on the sidelines after a made bucket from Zeller and he did not even give a clap or smile. Looks like he is just going through the motions until he can get drafted.

[JasonEvans]

This Carolina team looks pretty decent... either that or Rutgers SUCKS!

-Jason "pretty balanced attack for the Heels too-- no stars, but a lot of contributors" Evans

[diveonthefloor]

This Carolina team looks pretty decent... either that or Rutgers SUCKS!



I think it's the "or"!

[Bluedevil114]

UNC is hitting the trey tonight Everyone but Barnes is playing good. Marshall has got to start for UNC if they are going to get better. Strickland pushes the ball with speed. Rutgers is terrible.

GO DUKE!!

[kong123]

Drew is doing a horrible job of running the offense. 2 assists and 4 TO's to Marshalls 4 assist to 1 TO in much less time.

[hurley1]

I think it's the "or"!

yep.......

[striker219]

The leading scorers were Leslie McDonald (14) and Justin Watts (10). Let that sink in for a minute.

I'm not sure anyone can read too much in to this game, whether for good or bad.

[DukieInBrasil]

The leading scorers were Leslie McDonald (14) and Justin Watts (10). Let that sink in for a minute.

I'm not sure anyone can read too much in to this game, whether for good or bad.
One thing that is good for UNC, or perhaps bad depending on the POV, is that UNC had 9 guys score between 6 and 14 pts. That is ridiculously good balance. OTOH, their only 2 double digit scoring players were Strickland and Watts, meaning that none of their starters exhibited the ability to score consistently on a terrible team.
Once again, Harrison Barnes was underwhelming, though he did finally manage to hit the 3ball at a decent rate (2-5). I've grown to admire TZ this year, but even he had a rather dud game. I still don't understand why Ol' Roy continues to start Drew II, although his stats in this game were moderately decent. Marshall still had more assists and fewer turns in fewer minutes than LD II.
At least the ACC gets to chalk up a win vs. the Big East.

[smcook313]

The leading scorers were Leslie McDonald (14) and Justin Watts (10). Let that sink in for a minute.

I'm not sure anyone can read too much in to this game, whether for good or bad.

This game was SOOOO badly played!!! From about the 15 minute mark UNTIL the 3 minute mark, I dont think I saw one single offensive set ran. And Im not talking about the Scarlet Knights!! It was running down court , having the ball poked away from behind or throwing into traffic, jumping up in the air and having to kick it out, and then BOMBS AWAY.....CLANK!! Then all over again after the Rutgers miss OR make. Henson was not involved...who is their best player...Zeller did a good job grabbin rebounds. I like that kid. and Leslie and Marshall were shooting the ball well. But oh well!! It was Rutgers and they made this to be a high school game. IF Rutgers could have ran some sets and got some jumpers to fall...they could have made this a MUCH closer game. Im from Des Moines... I was SOOO excited to hear that Barnes was picking between Duke and UNC..Then I was bartending on that Friday...I turned all the TV's up...and saw my emotions go from love the kid to absolutely despise the kid...Now, I laugh cuz he is as good as advertised...He is just on the wrong team!! With Irving out..If it was Smith, Dawkins, Barnes, Singler, and Mason..... HOLY WINS BATMAN!! He'd have a different attitude than "Yay team, ra ra ra...Is this game over yet??" He KNOWS he picked the wrong team and I think he's PIST!!! :cool: Oh well :D Duke fans aren't!! They looked like garbage and the ONLY game that they haven't thus far was against Kentucky. Im not scared one bit and actually CANT WAIT to play them in the Mason Dome!! Yes, UNC fans...Mason IS undefeated at your court so technically...HE OWNS IT!!! GO Coack K and congrats on 880!!

[smcook313]

Drew is doing a horrible job of running the offense. 2 assists and 4 TO's to Marshalls 4 assist to 1 TO in much less time.

At the end of the game when the bench players came in and they were up by 20+ points, they didnt stop trying to score. If that were Casey or Todd in the game...well Casey at PG, then he would just run out the clock. They were taking it hard and shooting 3's with 30 seconds left..Now I know these kids dont get to play much and it was MSG but I dont see Coach K doing that. Class says youre up by ALOT and you hold the ball til double triple 00.0's. Maybe Im being critical of this but I am 30yrs old and have been a DIE HARD fan since 89' and I have NEVER seen Coach K run an offense LOOKING TO SCORE when his team has this sort of lead. He would slow it down and get mad if his team played this in your face style. Perhaps, a last second shot...ok...thats fine cuz its just a heave from 30 ft that wont go in BUT I dont think that Ol Roy played this the right way. If you want them to play, then put them in with 4 minutes left in the game...but dont try and run up the score when it means nothing. Just my opinion...

[OldPhiKap]

Drew is doing a horrible job of running the offense. 2 assists and 4 TO's to Marshalls 4 assist to 1 TO in much less time.

Kong, any thoughts as to why Roy won't pull the trigger and start Marshall?

[juise]

Kong, any thoughts as to why Roy won't pull the trigger and start Marshall?

Roy is just too loyal to his players and hates to admit when they are not meeting his expectations (especially in public).

No... wait... that doesn't sound right at all.

;)

[left_hook_lacey]

Kong, any thoughts as to why Roy won't pull the trigger and start Marshall?

I would love to hear some speculation on this subject as well. Last nights game against Rutgers was the only UNC game I have watched horn to horn this year and IMO Marshall looks light years ahead of LD2 as far as instincts and knowing where and when to swing the ball. He's not blazingly fast but he's under control all the time and always looking for a seam to put the ball. This team needs more control than speed right now. Marshall still makes the occassional cross court pass that only finds its receiver against the lesser teams such as Rutgers but overall he brings more to the court everytime he's in the game than Drew does. I believe if Marshall was given the opportunity to start or at least get starters minutes over Drew, that team would be a lot better. Let's hope Roy reduces his minutes! :)

[oldnavy]

Kong, any thoughts as to why Roy won't pull the trigger and start Marshall?

Better question to me is why is HB leading the team in minutes played at just under 28?

Zeller is just under 27 mpg.

BullLOCK is only getting 14 mpg yet he is shooting 43% from the field compared to HB at 36%.

BullLOCk is also hitting 38% from 3pt and HB is a paultry 27%.

HB also leads the team in shots taken.... Anybody think Ol Roy doesn't want to admit that his golden boy, the savior if you will is just slightly better than an average player??

I said this about 4 games ago. Roy either needs to set up the offense to get HB open shots and easier shots or he needs to sit him and bring him in off the bench. BullLOCK is a more productive player than Barnes is and to me their roles should be reversed at this point....

[trinity92]

Rutgers was just plain awful. I've never seen a team that lost offensively. unc can take absolutely nothing away from this game except the W. I disagree on the criticism of their scrubs trying hard. When the walk-ons are in, except for the very last possession if you can hold until time expires, I think they're entitled to try as hard as they can nomatter how much their team is up-- we do it all the time. OTOH, given the criticism unc fans routinely level at us for keeping our starters/top subs in too long in blow-outs, I chuckled to see roy not go to his walk-ons until the very last in a game that was over before it begun-- tar holes are living in a brittle glass house on that one.

[yancem]

At the end of the game when the bench players came in and they were up by 20+ points, they didnt stop trying to score. If that were Casey or Todd in the game...well Casey at PG, then he would just run out the clock. They were taking it hard and shooting 3's with 30 seconds left..Now I know these kids dont get to play much and it was MSG but I dont see Coach K doing that. Class says youre up by ALOT and you hold the ball til double triple 00.0's. Maybe Im being critical of this but I am 30yrs old and have been a DIE HARD fan since 89' and I have NEVER seen Coach K run an offense LOOKING TO SCORE when his team has this sort of lead. He would slow it down and get mad if his team played this in your face style. Perhaps, a last second shot...ok...thats fine cuz its just a heave from 30 ft that wont go in BUT I dont think that Ol Roy played this the right way. If you want them to play, then put them in with 4 minutes left in the game...but dont try and run up the score when it means nothing. Just my opinion...

I apparently have watched different Duke games over the years. I remember several occasions where the walk-ons/bench players have come into the end of the game with a big lead and still tried to score. In fact I seem to recall a game earlier this year when Curry and Dawkins were in the game late with a big lead and both were hunting for their shots. I say empty your bench and let them play. If our bench and wax the floor with the opponent's bench (or heck their starters) that's fine with me. Now leaving your starters in the game to run up the score, that I agree is classless.

[Dr. Rosenrosen]

...He is just on the wrong team!! With Irving out..If it was Smith, Dawkins, Barnes, Singler, and Mason..... HOLY WINS BATMAN!!

I'd say we're doing quite nicely without him! :D

[oldnavy]

I apparently have watched different Duke games over the years. I remember several occasions where the walk-ons/bench players have come into the end of the game with a big lead and still tried to score. In fact I seem to recall a game earlier this year when Curry and Dawkins were in the game late with a big lead and both were hunting for their shots. I say empty your bench and let them play. If our bench and wax the floor with the opponent's bench (or heck their starters) that's fine with me. Now leaving your starters in the game to run up the score, that I agree is classless.

I do not think you can tell you bench players to not score as long as there is more than 35 seconds to play. They should play and play hard as possible. BUT one thing I have noticed about UNC over the years is that when the shot clock is off and the other team has essentially stopped playing, the heels will continue to jack up shots. This to me is classless. I have heard the argument that "it is the only time these kids may get a chance to score" crap from heels fans. To me, if scoring 2 points in a blow out game is a defining moment in your career, then you really do not have a defining moment do you? I can just see some old gomer telling his grandkids, "yea boys I remember that game back in '10 when I scored 2 points agains NCCU, it was magical"... WOW!! really grandpa, you actually scored 2 points that is soo impressive!! Making the team as a walk on is way more impressive to me than scoring a bucket in a blow out game.

Duke on the other hand will tell the guys to stand out by mid court and dribble out the clock when it is under 35 seconds, that is classy!

[smcook313]

I apparently have watched different Duke games over the years. I remember several occasions where the walk-ons/bench players have come into the end of the game with a big lead and still tried to score. In fact I seem to recall a game earlier this year when Curry and Dawkins were in the game late with a big lead and both were hunting for their shots. I say empty your bench and let them play. If our bench and wax the floor with the opponent's bench (or heck their starters) that's fine with me. Now leaving your starters in the game to run up the score, that I agree is classless.

I wasn't referring to the last 3 minutes of the game when they scrubs came in. I was talking about the last 35 seconds of the game. UNC put up several shot attempts in that time rather than just hold the ball at half court. Of all the games I've ever seen Duke play, they have never done this. They get across half court, and dribble it out. Thats includes Casey Peters, Joe Paqliuca or Ross Perkins. Again, this very well could have been because they were playing at MSG and for that I cant blame them... I just dont think Coach K would have let his team put up 2 shots in this time. I agree with you on letting your bench get in the game 100%. Get the starters out of there. Just close it out like a high caliber team, act like you have been there before.

[oldnavy]

The other thing I just remembered is that when UNC could score 100+ points they would try to run the score up just to get Bojangles biscuits.

What is less classy than trying to run a score up on a beaten foe just so you can get a free biscuit?? I always thought this was a stupid promotion.

[kong123]

I do not think you can tell you bench players to not score as long as there is more than 35 seconds to play. They should play and play hard as possible. BUT one thing I have noticed about UNC over the years is that when the shot clock is off and the other team has essentially stopped playing, the heels will continue to jack up shots. This to me is classless. I have heard the argument that "it is the only time these kids may get a chance to score" crap from heels fans. To me, if scoring 2 points in a blow out game is a defining moment in your career, then you really do not have a defining moment do you? I can just see some old gomer telling his grandkids, "yea boys I remember that game back in '10 when I scored 2 points agains NCCU, it was magical"... WOW!! really grandpa, you actually scored 2 points that is soo impressive!! Making the team as a walk on is way more impressive to me than scoring a bucket in a blow out game.

Duke on the other hand will tell the guys to stand out by mid court and dribble out the clock when it is under 35 seconds, that is classy!

Last night, when the shot clock was off, UNC didn't try to heave up a last second shot. As they usually do under 20 or so seconds, they dribble it out. Having said that, I have no problem with the walk-ons shooting the ball and trying to score in the final moments of a blow out. They practice as hard if not harder than anyone else and they get very little time to play in games. I remember years ago when Dean pulled the walk-ons out of a game and put the 2nd string back in because the walk-ons were not playing well. To me, that showed me that Dean was still putting in the effort of coaching those kids. He respects their effort by giving him his effort. You guys can say what you want, but you are hypocritical. Singler is averaging 32 minutes per game and you are winning by an average of 20+ points per game. Heck, two other starters are averaging around 30 minutes per game. Playing the kind of competition you have played so far this year, Princeton, Miami OH, Elon, Colgate, Bradley, and St. Louis, and winning by such wide margins, why is he playing so much? Are you trying to run up the score? No, the answer is K is trying to tighten his rotation. See, that isn't so hard to understand. But, UNC's third string gets in for a minute and a half and they have the audacity to try to score? They should just play defense and then dribble the shot clock out each time? Where is the fun in that for anyone other than a Duke Basketball forum?

[kong123]

As far as Roy's decision to start and play Drew more than Marshall, he says that Drew practices better, but when you look at how Marshall runs the team during the game, one wonders when the trigger will be pulled. I also think McDonald should be starting. Should he be starting over HB? Not sure. Doesn't seem like Marshall and HB are in the game very often. Marshall and L McDonald seem to play together quite often and KM seems to get LM the ball in great positions to shoot. I think we will see KM's minutes equal LD's before he ever takes the starting position.

[smcook313]

Last night, when the shot clock was off, UNC didn't try to heave up a last second shot. As they usually do under 20 or so seconds, they dribble it out. Having said that, I have no problem with the walk-ons shooting the ball and trying to score in the final moments of a blow out. They practice as hard if not harder than anyone else and they get very little time to play in games. I remember years ago when Dean pulled the walk-ons out of a game and put the 2nd string back in because the walk-ons were not playing well. To me, that showed me that Dean was still putting in the effort of coaching those kids. He respects their effort by giving him his effort. You guys can say what you want, but you are hypocritical. Singler is averaging 32 minutes per game and you are winning by an average of 20+ points per game. Heck, two other starters are averaging around 30 minutes per game. Playing the kind of competition you have played so far this year, Princeton, Miami OH, Elon, Colgate, Bradley, and St. Louis, and winning by such wide margins, why is he playing so much? Are you trying to run up the score? No, the answer is K is trying to tighten his rotation. See, that isn't so hard to understand. But, UNC's third string gets in for a minute and a half and they have the audacity to try to score? They should just play defense and then dribble the shot clock out each time? Where is the fun in that for anyone other than a Duke Basketball forum?

32 minutes and 30 minutes still leave 8 to 10 minutes a game out there. And 3rd string came in the game with plenty of time to "tighten their rotation". If you would have read our post, we were talking about the shot clock off possessions. You arent going to loosen the noose with 8 minutes left in the game... Thats not so hard to understand..is it? You watch almost every game that UNC plays thats a blowout, and they dont stop shooting until the buzzer sounds or they miss their shot and the other team takes possession. Watch Duke. Shot clock is off, they dribble to half court, spread the court, and the buzzer sounds. If the 3rd string comes in to close out a game and theres time, then play hard. Just know that its not sportsman like to drive or shoot 3's with 20 seconds left in the game when your up by 25 pts. If thats what you guys want to do then fine, do it, but you dont see a football team up by 17 with 20 seconds left kick a field goal because they're in range.

[kong123]

32 minutes and 30 minutes still leave 8 to 10 minutes a game out there. And 3rd string came in the game with plenty of time to "tighten their rotation". If you would have read our post, we were talking about the shot clock off possessions. You arent going to loosen the noose with 8 minutes left in the game... Thats not so hard to understand..is it? You watch almost every game that UNC plays thats a blowout, and they dont stop shooting until the buzzer sounds or they miss their shot and the other team takes possession. Watch Duke. Shot clock is off, they dribble to half court, spread the court, and the buzzer sounds. If the 3rd string comes in to close out a game and theres time, then play hard. Just know that its not sportsman like to drive or shoot 3's with 20 seconds left in the game when your up by 25 pts. If thats what you guys want to do then fine, do it, but you dont see a football team up by 17 with 20 seconds left kick a field goal because they're in range.


You are wrong and that's fine. If I could post negative feedback for you, I would, but your rep is so bad that it isn't an option. Everything UNC does is classless, I should have figured this out by now. Unfortunately, this place is becoming more and more like the IC. Wish some of you displayed a bit of the class you claim UNC doesn't have. I also wish some of you would police your own kind. I know this is a Duke forum, but it isn't TDD. Perhaps I need to leave this place.

[wilko]

Just know that its not sportsman like to drive or shoot 3's with 20 seconds left in the game when your up by 25 pts. If that's what you guys want to do then fine, do it, but you don't see a football team up by 17 with 20 seconds left kick a field goal because they're in range.

With all due respect, and believe me it pains me to say... Kong aint far off the mark.
With a young team (even if it is a 3rd string back-up) you want them to continue to attack and gain confidence.

I didn't watch the game, but the real key in any game is at what point those guys came in the game and the dogs were effectively called off...

[smcook313]

You are wrong and that's fine. If I could post negative feedback for you, I would, but your rep is so bad that it isn't an option. Everything UNC does is classless, I should have figured this out by now. Unfortunately, this place is becoming more and more like the IC. Wish some of you displayed a bit of the class you claim UNC doesn't have. I also wish some of you would police your own kind. I know this is a Duke forum, but it isn't TDD. Perhaps I need to leave this place.

Have the conversation... Why is what I am saying wrong? If you were getting blown out the team kept shooting, would you agree with it? Honestly? I couldnt agree more with you if we are talking late in the game. I agree with you on that but I really dont believe that you think a team should drive for a layup or put up a 3 until that buzzer sounds when they are up by that much. And if you do, then thats ok, your opinion. Just because someone doesnt agree with your thoughts doesn't make them wrong does it??
You wont find anyone else defend UNC against other conferences more than Duke fans. Rather than just tell someone they are wrong, tell why...

[arnie]

You are wrong and that's fine. If I could post negative feedback for you, I would, but your rep is so bad that it isn't an option. Everything UNC does is classless, I should have figured this out by now. Unfortunately, this place is becoming more and more like the IC. Wish some of you displayed a bit of the class you claim UNC doesn't have. I also wish some of you would police your own kind. I know this is a Duke forum, but it isn't TDD. Perhaps I need to leave this place.

When you compare this site with IC; then I guess it's best you leave. IC is disgusting, much
worse than Pack Pride and about the same as the MD site. I often wondered why UNC
doesn't try to return that site to something that shows some class - guess I've answered
that question myself.

[oldnavy]

Last night, when the shot clock was off, UNC didn't try to heave up a last second shot. As they usually do under 20 or so seconds, they dribble it out. Having said that, I have no problem with the walk-ons shooting the ball and trying to score in the final moments of a blow out. They practice as hard if not harder than anyone else and they get very little time to play in games. I remember years ago when Dean pulled the walk-ons out of a game and put the 2nd string back in because the walk-ons were not playing well. To me, that showed me that Dean was still putting in the effort of coaching those kids. He respects their effort by giving him his effort. You guys can say what you want, but you are hypocritical. Singler is averaging 32 minutes per game and you are winning by an average of 20+ points per game. Heck, two other starters are averaging around 30 minutes per game. Playing the kind of competition you have played so far this year, Princeton, Miami OH, Elon, Colgate, Bradley, and St. Louis, and winning by such wide margins, why is he playing so much? Are you trying to run up the score? No, the answer is K is trying to tighten his rotation. See, that isn't so hard to understand. But, UNC's third string gets in for a minute and a half and they have the audacity to try to score? They should just play defense and then dribble the shot clock out each time? Where is the fun in that for anyone other than a Duke Basketball forum?

Kong, did you read my post? I said that the walk-on's should play as hard as possible, up until they do not have to shoot again, so I have no idea what you are commenting on. If you are saying that UNC's scrubs do not try to score all the way up to the end of the game you are simply wrong. They do and have for years. Saying that we are hypocritical because we play a starter 30 or so minutes a game is not even logically connected to the discussion so I will not even comment on it.

[OldPhiKap]

As far as Roy's decision to start and play Drew more than Marshall, he says that Drew practices better, but when you look at how Marshall runs the team during the game, one wonders when the trigger will be pulled. I also think McDonald should be starting. Should he be starting over HB? Not sure. Doesn't seem like Marshall and HB are in the game very often. Marshall and L McDonald seem to play together quite often and KM seems to get LM the ball in great positions to shoot. I think we will see KM's minutes equal LD's before he ever takes the starting position.

Thanks for the reply. I can see giving Drew the start if he practices better, I guess. But when the curtain goes up and the guy off the bench is playing better, I would think that he'd end up with more minutes.

You raise a really interesting question about starting McDonald over Barnes. Barnes may do better if the pressure wasn't on him and he could come into the game as the fresh body. But it would be hard for Roy to do that given the massive hype over him pre-season. Barnes reminds me, in some ways, of Josh McRoberts -- super-hyped high schoolers thrown into the grinder before really having time to sort of work into a college-level player deserving the hype. (And, before everyone piles on, I mean that comparison in the aboslutely loosest way possible).

[sagegrouse]

Kong, did you read my post? I said that the walk-on's should play as hard as possible, up until they do not have to shoot again, so I have no idea what you are commenting on. If you are saying that UNC's scrubs do not try to score all the way up to the end of the game you are simply wrong. They do and have for years. Saying that we are hypocritical because we play a starter 30 or so minutes a game is not even logically connected to the discussion so I will not even comment on it.

Let me see if I understand the disagreement on this sub-thread: The UNC scrubinis (as Dickie V would say) are trying to shoot right until the final horn, probably to ensure that their career records aren't all zeroes. At Duke the word from the bench is "hold the ball" unless the other team applies pressure. Two different practices in the last 30 seconds of a blowout.

IMHO, where the H is usually silent, this ain't worth a single keystroke, much less a vehement discussion, verging on the personal.

sagegrouse

[Newton_14]

Let me see if I understand the disagreement on this sub-thread: The UNC scrubinis (as Dickie V would say) are trying to shoot right until the final horn, probably to ensure that their career records aren't all zeroes. At Duke the word from the bench is "hold the ball" unless the other team applies pressure. Two different practices in the last 30 seconds of a blowout.

IMHO, where the H is usually silent, this ain't worth a single keystroke, much less a vehement discussion, verging on the personal.

sagegrouse

I could not agree more. This thread is done. Time to move on.