NC State and Sidney Lowe

[bluepenguin]

Just wondering whether it is time for the annual: Jason "It's time to replace Sidney Lowe" Evans thread? ;)

[wilko]

Just wondering whether it is time for the annual: Jason "It's time to replace Sidney Lowe" Evans thread? ;)

Since State DID manage a win against us Last yr... I'm inclined to think he is doing OK.
A little "too" ok actually..

[davekay1971]

So far, State's season has to be described as disappointing. They've played four good teams and gone 0-4 against them. Granted, all four of those losses are without their best player and senior leader, and that means something. However, the loss of Tracy Smith doesn't explain State absolutely quitting against Wisconsin, nor does it explain a 10 point home loss to a decent but not exceptional Arizona team. It doesn't explain consistently poor decisionmaking, bad turnovers, defensive lapses that cost State the Arizona game and kept them from scoring a big win at Syracuse. As much as I personally like Sidney Lowe, those are the hallmark signs of a poorly coached team.

They are also, however, the signs of a young team that hasn't quite gotten it yet, and even a great coach may struggle to get a freshman-laden squad to learn how to play smart, consistent basketball.

So, despite a disappointing start without any statement wins and with some pretty bad stretches of basketball, the jury, in my mind, is still out. Is it Lowe's coaching, Tracy's injury, or a team that's young and just learning how to play college ball? Or is it a combination?

Well, they'll get Smith back at some point, hopefully by the start of ACC play, and the freshmen are going to keep getting lots of experience and should learn. If State starts to put it together and has a good ACC season and makes the NCAA tournament, I think Sidney gets a chance to stay around and keep coaching the talent he's recruited. If they stumble along to a .500 record in the league and find themselves back in the NIT, I think Debbie Yow pulls the trigger and sees if someone else can do a better job coaching Harrow, Brown, Wood, etc...

[mkline09]

So far, State's season has to be described as disappointing. They've played four good teams and gone 0-4 against them. Granted, all four of those losses are without their best player and senior leader, and that means something. However, the loss of Tracy Smith doesn't explain State absolutely quitting against Wisconsin, nor does it explain a 10 point home loss to a decent but not exceptional Arizona team. It doesn't explain consistently poor decisionmaking, bad turnovers, defensive lapses that cost State the Arizona game and kept them from scoring a big win at Syracuse. As much as I personally like Sidney Lowe, those are the hallmark signs of a poorly coached team.

They are also, however, the signs of a young team that hasn't quite gotten it yet, and even a great coach may struggle to get a freshman-laden squad to learn how to play smart, consistent basketball.

So, despite a disappointing start without any statement wins and with some pretty bad stretches of basketball, the jury, in my mind, is still out. Is it Lowe's coaching, Tracy's injury, or a team that's young and just learning how to play college ball? Or is it a combination?

Well, they'll get Smith back at some point, hopefully by the start of ACC play, and the freshmen are going to keep getting lots of experience and should learn. If State starts to put it together and has a good ACC season and makes the NCAA tournament, I think Sidney gets a chance to stay around and keep coaching the talent he's recruited. If they stumble along to a .500 record in the league and find themselves back in the NIT, I think Debbie Yow pulls the trigger and sees if someone else can do a better job coaching Harrow, Brown, Wood, etc...

Lowe made an interesting comment last night after the loss to Arizona. He said Tracy is going to have to learn to play through some pain. Sounds like the knee is structurally fine just hurting him and sounds as if he could play but just doesn't feel comfortable.

Not sure if that is as bad as it sounds, but that is scary to think a coach would want a college kid playing through pain. Lowe is in trouble. If they don't at least make the tournament with the level of talent he has this year the fans will be calling for his head, those that aren't already. Even without Smith like you said there is no excuse to losing like they did to Wisconsin.

[superdave]

I just checked out State's schedule - 4 out-of-conference games in the next two weeks, then the ACC. They can and should go at least 3-1 if not 4-0 in the near term.

Assuming 3-1 puts them at 9-5 going into conference. If they go 8-8 or worse in conference with no ACC tourney win, they're not getting into the NCAAs. But 9-7 with 1 ACC tourney win makes them 19-12 and puts them at least on the bubble. I think as weak as the ACC is this year, they're going to need 20 wins heading into selection Sunday.

[Fuqua's Finest]

Well I happened to attend the game yesterday evening and I had the chance to see what NC State has this year. Obviously without Tracey Smith in the lineup it's hard to assess them truly. However, my initial thoughts were that the team is extremely young and extremely raw. It's almost as if they play with no continuity. It's too many players trying to create their own shots. They truly have no team flow. Whenever State happened to make runs it was when Scott Wood started draining 3's. I must admit, he might be the best 3 pt. shooter in the ACC (No knock to Dre, but the Wood kid can stroke it). I wasn't very impressed with their freshman however. Leslie is still trying to figure out his role. He's a wing with a 4's mentality. He'll def have to shoot it a lot better to succeed at the next level. Harrow didn't start and he didn't seem to make many plays while he was in. I didn't see him use any of his elite athleticism at all. Lorenzo Brown was by far the most impressive. The kid has a scorer's mentality and took it the rack strong with some nice finishes. Overall, I wasn't that impressed and I think State is a year away from competing for Top 3 in the ACC.

[davekay1971]

Well I happened to attend the game yesterday evening and I had the chance to see what NC State has this year. Obviously without Tracey Smith in the lineup it's hard to assess them truly. However, my initial thoughts were that the team is extremely young and extremely raw. It's almost as if they play with no continuity. It's too many players trying to create their own shots. They truly have no team flow. Whenever State happened to make runs it was when Scott Wood started draining 3's. I must admit, he might be the best 3 pt. shooter in the ACC (No knock to Dre, but the Wood kid can stroke it). I wasn't very impressed with their freshman however. Leslie is still trying to figure out his role. He's a wing with a 4's mentality. He'll def have to shoot it a lot better to succeed at the next level. Harrow didn't start and he didn't seem to make many plays while he was in. I didn't see him use any of his elite athleticism at all. Lorenzo Brown was by far the most impressive. The kid has a scorer's mentality and took it the rack strong with some nice finishes. Overall, I wasn't that impressed and I think State is a year away from competing for Top 3 in the ACC.

Good assessment. I've watched them quite a bit this year and what you saw with Brown has been what he's shown all year. He's the most college-ready of the three freshmen and is simply a good player. Wood is, IMHO, State's best player outside of Smith, largely because Wood is a smart player who (usually) plays within the flow of the game. It's rare to see him force things or make big mistakes. He'd be a Duke fan favorite if he was on our team. You probably saw Harrow's worst game of the season yesterday. Not sure why, but he was really forcing things, making mistakes, basically playing like a freshman. He's been great at times this year, and you can see how good he's going to be as he gains experience. Yesterday was simply a bad, bad game for him. Leslie has struggled to find his place in the offense. He may benefit from Smith's return more than anyone, because State having a legitimate scoring threat in the post will open up some more room for Leslie to operate at the high post and wing, where he's more comfortable. It was good to see his rebounding yesterday, however.

State's biggest problem, as a whole, really is a lack of understanding as to who should be doing what and where they should be in the halfcourt, and it does tend to devolve into guys trying to "make something happen" by themselves. That's coaching, and my biggest knock on Sidney right now. It's also why State is still going through these long scoring droughts that have plagued them for the last 3 years. Better talent hasn't fixed that.

I think State will probably go 5-0 over their next 5, but that's 5 home wins against 4 non-conference minnows and then Wake. 11-4 at that point without a single impressive win means they've got to prove it in conference. The next 2 games after that (at BC and at FSU) will determine their season, because after those two challenging road games they've got us coming to Raleigh. If they welcome us at 3-0 with two confidence building road wins, they're going to be feeling good, even if we beat them, about their chances in the ACC race for 2nd place. If they can't get those road wins, and are 1-2 with us coming to town, it's going to be hard to see how State can make the NCAAT without that annual hoped-for-miracle-run-in-the-ACCT.

[moonpie23]

Since State DID manage a win against us Last yr.

and who is THAT on?

[Acymetric]

Lowe made an interesting comment last night after the loss to Arizona. He said Tracy is going to have to learn to play through some pain. Sounds like the knee is structurally fine just hurting him and sounds as if he could play but just doesn't feel comfortable.

Not sure if that is as bad as it sounds, but that is scary to think a coach would want a college kid playing through pain. Lowe is in trouble. If they don't at least make the tournament with the level of talent he has this year the fans will be calling for his head, those that aren't already. Even without Smith like you said there is no excuse to losing like they did to Wisconsin.

Well if he wants to play in the NBA playing through pain is something he'll have to learn to do...I don't really see a problem with that as long as they are 100% sure that playing will not cause further injury or prolong the recovery.

[mkline09]

Well if he wants to play in the NBA playing through pain is something he'll have to learn to do...I don't really see a problem with that as long as they are 100% sure that playing will not cause further injury or prolong the recovery.

This is true but I just don't agree with making a kid play through pain or calling him out because he doesn't feel comfortable. Don't get me wrong I like Lowe as a coach, I couldn't see K doing it though.

If the kid isn't comfortable then don't play him. And don't make excuses like if we had him we would... If he goes out there trying to avoid an injury or worsening an injury then he is opening himself up to an injury. That seems to be how those things happen. You play tentative and not at full speed you seem to get hurt or so the story goes.

[wilko]

and who is THAT on?

Well, YOU were my 1st on my list for THAT transgression...
However, when you get right down to it... I'll trade a loss to State every year for National Championship.

Fair trade in my book.

[JasonEvans]

Just wondering whether it is time for the annual: Jason "It's time to replace Sidney Lowe" Evans thread? ;)

Longtimers will recall that I wanted Herb run out of town before Sid arrived. I actually became more supportive of Herb late in his tenure, once he had turned State into a team that consistently made the NCAA tourney, but I was not too sad to see him go.

Then State hired Sid and I was shocked. I thought it was a terrible hire, a guy ill-suited to the college game who was largely a failure as pro head coach. He had zero college coaching experience, zero experience recruiting. It made no sense as a hire and that he has done poorly is no surprise to me.

--Jason "I may be crazy, but I think State can do better" Evans

[CameronBornAndBred]

Then State hired Sid and I was shocked. I thought it was a terrible hire, a guy ill-suited to the college game who was largely a failure as pro head coach. He had zero college coaching experience, zero experience recruiting. It made no sense as a hire and that he has done poorly is no surprise to me.

I seem to recall that State asked a bunch of other people but were continuosly spurned, and they had to settle on Lowe. I wonder if they will have the same difficulty in replacing him (which I imagine they will be doing after this season, I don't see them getting better).

[jimsumner]

This is true but I just don't agree with making a kid play through pain or calling him out because he doesn't feel comfortable. Don't get me wrong I like Lowe as a coach, I couldn't see K doing it though.

If the kid isn't comfortable then don't play him. And don't make excuses like if we had him we would... If he goes out there trying to avoid an injury or worsening an injury then he is opening himself up to an injury. That seems to be how those things happen. You play tentative and not at full speed you seem to get hurt or so the story goes.

I was at that press conference. In fairness to Lowe, it should be pointed out that he said several times that he would not force Smith or anyone else to play when they didn't want to and side-stepped some pointed questions that would have enabled him to more directly criticize Smith had he been so inclined.

Lowe also pointed out that this was the first serious injury of Smith's career and that Smith was still figuring out how to deal with it. Lowe's frustration was quite obvious.

State has talent but hasn't meshed. Smith is a half-court player, the freshmen are more run-and-gun types. They need some time together while they still have the Delaware States of the world on their schedule. The more time Smith sits out, the harder it's going to be to get everyone on the same page.

[ChicagoCrazy84]

I too would give them some time to iron out some of the kinks in their games. Of the 14 players on their team, 9 of them are freshman or sophomores. That is a lot of young talent and you couple that with the fact that their best player has been hurting, that is a recipe for disaster. It is unsettling that they had 4 good chances at getting a marquee out-of-conference win and failed miserably, so they are honestly probably headed to the NIT. I do think they have a good future and if you give them some time, they'll improve. If you get rid of Lowe now or soon, you are just adding to the fire I think.

[jimsumner]

I too would give them some time to iron out some of the kinks in their games. Of the 14 players on their team, 9 of them are freshman or sophomores. That is a lot of young talent and you couple that with the fact that their best player has been hurting, that is a recipe for disaster. It is unsettling that they had 4 good chances at getting a marquee out-of-conference win and failed miserably, so they are honestly probably headed to the NIT. I do think they have a good future and if you give them some time, they'll improve. If you get rid of Lowe now or soon, you are just adding to the fire I think.

You may be right about Lowe. But I'm reasonably certain that an NIT appearance for State this season will lead to a coaching change.

[JasonEvans]

You may be right about Lowe. But I'm reasonably certain that an NIT appearance for State this season will lead to a coaching change.

He is in his 5th year with 2 NIT appearances (1 in year 1, one last year) and zero NCAA appearances to show for it. He is yet to finish higher than a tie for 9th in the conference and yet to post a conference record better than 6-10.

At any school, let alone one with a fabulous basketball tradition, that should have your head on the chopping block.

-Jason "no NCAA this year, no Sid next year" Evans

[Duvall]

He is in his 5th year with 2 NIT appearances (1 in year 1, one last year) and zero NCAA appearances to show for it. He is yet to finish higher than a tie for 9th in the conference and yet to post a conference record better than 6-10.

At any school, let alone one with a fabulous basketball tradition, that should have your head on the chopping block.

-Jason "no NCAA this year, no Sid next year" Evans

At what point does State's fabulous basketball tradition become as irrelevant as CCNY's? State's glory days are now a distant memory not just for potential recruits, but for parents of potential recruits.

State does have the advantage of a large and engaged fanbase, which matters a lot. But it's not clear how much tradition still helps them.

[Greg_Newton]

You may be right about Lowe. But I'm reasonably certain that an NIT appearance for State this season will lead to a coaching change.

I wonder what their conference record would have to be for that to happen?

Their best OOC win will be George Mason or ECU, and they've lost to all four BCS teams they've played. With such a weak ACC, I doubt 9-7 would make the cut, and I'm not even sure 10-6 would be a guarantee without beating Duke.

[CameronBornAndBred]

I wonder what their conference record would have to be for that to happen?

Their best OOC win will be George Mason or ECU, and they've lost to all four BCS teams they've played. With such a weak ACC, I doubt 9-7 would make the cut, and I'm not even sure 10-6 would be a guarantee without beating Duke.
If they are outside of the top 3 in the ACC, they are probably NIT bound. I can't remember a year when the ACC had such a bleak tourney outlook heading into January. In the coaches' poll, Duke is not the only ranked ACC team, they are the only ACC team to even get a vote.

[davekay1971]

At what point does State's fabulous basketball tradition become as irrelevant as CCNY's? State's glory days are now a distant memory not just for potential recruits, but for parents of potential recruits.

State does have the advantage of a large and engaged fanbase, which matters a lot. But it's not clear how much tradition still helps them.

To high school kids being recruited, State's championships from 74 and 83 are already irrelevant...and they're probably not sure if the Everett Case years happened before or after dinosaurs became extinct.

To NC State fans, that history will never become irrelevant. Whether or not it's a realistic hope for State to compete on an even level with Duke and UNC, the Wolfpack fans have the legitimate pride that their program was the foundation of Tobacco Road basketball. Yes, they've been long surpassed by Duke and UNC. Doesn't matter. Their fans aren't going to settle on a coach that makes them a somewhat more respectable third best program in the Triangle, they aren't going to settle for middle of the pack ACC finishes while Duke and UNC take turns winning ACC championships, and they aren't going to settle for occassional sweet 16s when we're making the final four.

And they shouldn't. They do have a great, rich basketball history, they have great facilities, they play in an elite basketball conference, and, as we've seen right here at Duke, a college program like that is one great hire away from being a national power.

I had hoped Sidney would get the job done at State, and I still hope he will (though I doubt it at this point), but if he doesn't, why shouldn't the State fans hope to hire some fresh faced Polish guy from a sorry program like Army and enjoy a return to basketball glory?

[Acymetric]

At what point does State's fabulous basketball tradition become as irrelevant as CCNY's? State's glory days are now a distant memory not just for potential recruits, but for parents of potential recruits.

State does have the advantage of a large and engaged fanbase, which matters a lot. But it's not clear how much tradition still helps them.

Know what might be a better comparison than CCNY (although its a different sport)? Duke football.

[CameronBornAndBred]

This quote says my thoughts very well. (Also, it's a good article to read.)



Maybe the Wolfpack wouldn't be 6-4 with no quality wins if it didn't have an unfortunate injury to Tracy Smith. It's an obvious blow to their team. But it's been made out like State is incapable of doing anything without Smith in the lineup. He's an important player, but if not having Smith for a few games meant the Wolfpack wouldn't win a single quality game without him, then they weren't that good to begin with.

http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/8802958/

[Slackerb]

I'm not so pessimistic.

Sure, State hasn't looked very good so far, and it's true that it's NCAA hopes are dwindling, but they also don't have any bad losses and have been close in every game except the Wisconsin debacle.

Without Tracy Smith and with one of the youngest teams in nation based on playing time.

They've definitely disappointed, but to me its nothing that can't possibly be fixed, and State IMO will turn into a NCAA tourney caliber team by the end of the season, even if they don't make it because of the disappointing start.

To me, this is one of the scariest teams in the ACC outside of Duke. Sure, they'll probably bungle a few games, but they'll beat a few teams they weren't supposed to (like last year, but even moreso).


This quote says my thoughts very well. (Also, it's a good article to read.)


http://www.wralsportsfan.com/voices/blogpost/8802958/

[shoutingncu]

I think another factor is going to be the Amato clause... If State gets swept by UNC again, that may go just as far as an NIT berth in Lowe's dismissal (unofficially, of course).

[superdave]

I think another factor is going to be the Amato clause... If State gets swept by UNC again, that may go just as far as an NIT berth in Lowe's dismissal (unofficially, of course).

Isnt Unc supposed to collapse again this year? I thought that was the plan based on the fact that they were better at this point last year.

Getting swept by Unc would mean State is likely a sub-.500 team in conference which would be the actual problem. Also, I'm not sure anyone can definitely say what Tracy Smith brings to the table when he returns though.

[Acymetric]

Isnt Unc supposed to collapse again this year? I thought that was the plan based on the fact that they were better at this point last year.

Getting swept by Unc would mean State is likely a sub-.500 team in conference which would be the actual problem. Also, I'm not sure anyone can definitely say what Tracy Smith brings to the table when he returns though.

Or it would mean State choked against unc...certainly within the realm of possibility I would say.

[JasonEvans]

Getting swept by Unc would mean State is likely a sub-.500 team in conference which would be the actual problem. Also, I'm not sure anyone can definitely say what Tracy Smith brings to the table when he returns though.

Worth noting is that I think NCSt got a tough draw this year in the ACC's rotating schedule. They do get Wake twice, which is nice, but they get most of the top tier teams twice too. If you consider Duke, UNC, FSU, and Maryland to be the top of the conference (as I do); State gets all those teams except Maryland twice. Plus, the game with the Terps is at Maryland. going 3-4 in those 7 games would be huge...2-5 may even be hard to accomplish.

Also worth noting that State may get a bit of a pass from the committee on some of their recent struggles if Smith comes back strong and they appear to be a different team once he is back on the floor. In some ways, December could be a mulligan for State.

-Jason "I do agree, they will need to go 9-7 or 10-6 in the ACC to get a bid" Evans

[sagegrouse]

I think another factor is going to be the Amato clause... If State gets swept by UNC again, that may go just as far as an NIT berth in Lowe's dismissal (unofficially, of course).

This is a really good point. State lost to UNC in 2010, 63-77 at home and 61-74 away. That provided UNC with two (TWO) of its five (FIVE) conference wins. I suspect State HAS to win at least one game this year against UNC for Sidney to survive.

sagegrouse

[jimsumner]

RE: Lowe's job security.

Keep in mind that State has a new AD. New ADs are the last thing a struggling coach wants to see. The AD who hired you has an investment in you. An AD who did not hire you does not have that investment.

[ScreechTDX1847]

Sidney Lowe is simply a bad coach. His teams rarely play with a lot of energy; especially defensively and he may be the worst situational coach in the ACC. The last person I want drawing up a play with two seconds to go and the game on the line is Sydney.

Also, have you guys noticed that when a player gets hot from the field Syndey pulls them? It happens like CLOCKWORK and has for the last three years. I think any time a player deviates from the set play they get pulled regardless of the game situation.

I, literally, think that he is the worst coach in the ACC.

[JasonEvans]

I, literally, think that he is the worst coach in the ACC.

Well, based on a little less than half a season of evidence, I think you might be able to include Bzezdzdzdzic in this conversation. And you certainly can't talk about "worst coach in the ACC" without mentioning Hewitt.

Hmmm, maybe this goes in another thread with a poll attached.

--Jason "opinions?" Evans

[CEF1959]

I hope he gets a bit more time. This is only his fifth season, and it's not like his teams have been terrible every year. They just seem stuck on 20 wins and an occasional trip to the NIT. But let's not forget that he beat Duke last year and Duke, UNC and Wake four years ago (when beating Wake meant something).

As with Indiana, I think it's good for CBB for NC State to have a good program. It's been a while, admittedly. But they've got a good 7-footer coming next year (from Word of God IIRC) and a really good point guard committed for 2012.

I don't know about Lowe as an Xs and Os coach or motivator. But I hope he's given a fair chance to succeed or fail -- 6 or 7 years, not 4 or 5.

[Ping Lin]

Well, based on a little less than half a season of evidence, I think you might be able to include Bzezdzdzdzic in this conversation. And you certainly can't talk about "worst coach in the ACC" without mentioning Hewitt.

Hmmm, maybe this goes in another thread with a poll attached.

--Jason "opinions?" Evans

Hewitt is a perennial contender, of course, but...

Wake this season has lost to Stetson, Winthrop, and now Presbyterian, the latter a team 2 years fresh from Division II. And I thought Buzz wasn't that bad a hire, either -- but the man is imploding from the pressure. His press conference tonight showed a man pretty much giving up on the season.

As for Lowe, his teams have been amazingly disjointed and undisciplined on the floor. Yes, he's without Tracy Smith, but there's only so much Smith can do; he alone isn't going to stop the horrible ball handling, horrendous defensive fundamentals, or overall lack of intensity.

If we were to hold a poll, I'd be inclined to give the "prize" to Buzz, with a close second fought between Lowe and Hewitt.

Ping "boy oh boy is the ACC down this year" Lin

[tieguy]

His press conference tonight showed a man pretty much giving up on the season.

Care to elaborate on that, Ping?

(I agree with your general sentiment, of course; Wake had a very bare cupboard to welcome Bzzzz with but losing to Presbyterian still shouldn't be acceptable. They're on pace to challenge Doh's 8-20 year.)

~tieguy (must be a decade since I responded to a post by Ping?)

[Newton_14]

I never was a fan of the Lowe hire. I know State got turned down by all of their top targets, but the AD then panicked and pulled the trigger on Lowe, rather than patiently pursuing a more worthy candidate. At the time there were some good young coaches at local mid-majors, that would have been better choices.

If you can't hit the homerun hire of an established winner, my view is, you go the route of young coach who has performed well at a smaller school. That is how Valvano, K, and Cremins came to be. It is a gamble, but far less of a gamble than Lowe was.

One problem I have noticed in Lowe's style, in addition to his teams not playing hard, is he tries the NBA method of different rotations game by game based on match-ups. Two seasons ago I watched 4 or 5 State games over about a 2 week period. He had a different starting line up in just about every game, and a kid would start and play 25 minutes in one game, then not start and get 4 minutes the next game. Professionals are mature enough to handle that. College "kids' are not.That style simply will not work in the college game.

I hate seeing State struggle as I feel the ACC needs all of the Big Four to be Top 25 Caliber programs. It just makes the ACC better imo. I believe though, that Lowe has had enough time to get a solid foundation laid and show a path to success, and he has failed. Losing Smith has hurt them this year, but losing by 40 at Wisconsin was a troubling sign.

The clock is ticking. Given the current state of the ACC, if the Pack cannot go 10-6 or better, I think they have no shot at the NCAA's and that will be the final nail in the coffin for Lowe.

[jimsumner]

I hope he gets a bit more time. This is only his fifth season, and it's not like his teams have been terrible every year. They just seem stuck on 20 wins and an occasional trip to the NIT. But let's not forget that he beat Duke last year and Duke, UNC and Wake four years ago (when beating Wake meant something).

As with Indiana, I think it's good for CBB for NC State to have a good program. It's been a while, admittedly. But they've got a good 7-footer coming next year (from Word of God IIRC) and a really good point guard committed for 2012.

I don't know about Lowe as an Xs and Os coach or motivator. But I hope he's given a fair chance to succeed or fail -- 6 or 7 years, not 4 or 5.

The counter-argument would be that five years is enough. Lowe took over a program that had made the NCAAs five years in a row. He hasn't made the NCAAs yet. Every player on his team is a player he recruited. Sure, he's had some good wins but I could give you a long list of really bad losses.

This may be premature. State hasn't started its ACC season yet, its best player has been out with an injury and the ACC's performance so far suggests that there are first-division niches just begging to be filled. So, maybe State goes 10-6, goes to the NCAAs, Lowe gets an extension and everything is hunky-dory. Stranger things have happened.

But, as I stated earlier in the thread, I'm quite certain that State has to go to the Big Dance for him to keep his job. Maybe that's not fair, maybe five years isn't long enough. But Sendek didn't leave a bare cupboard and the job was by no means considered a rebuilding job when Lowe took it. The State fan base is restless and Lowe has a big two months ahead of him.

[ScreechTDX1847]

Well, based on a little less than half a season of evidence, I think you might be able to include Bzezdzdzdzic in this conversation. And you certainly can't talk about "worst coach in the ACC" without mentioning Hewitt.

Hmmm, maybe this goes in another thread with a poll attached.

--Jason "opinions?" Evans

I am talking track record over the last four years. He typically has a bit more talent (that he doesn't keep around) than the lower tier ACC programs but his in-game coaching is just atrocious. His teams play with NO energy; even the lower tier teams come out and try to punch you in the mouth.

[Slackerb]

Andy Katz agrees with me that it's wayyyy premature to count out the Wolfpack, and that they haven't been as bad as people seem to believe so far.....after all, their losses are all to teams that would probably be #2 in the ACC this year.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/5942902/wolfpack-await-tracy-smith-return

[OldPhiKap]

There is no one who gets less out of more than Paul Hewitt. Abysmal.

Lowe needs to show this year, agree with all of those above.

Bz, too early to tell. They were not very good last year and are learning a new system. So I think the jury is out. No doubt, though, they are really really bad this year.

[superdave]

Andy Katz agrees with me that it's wayyyy premature to count out the Wolfpack, and that they haven't been as bad as people seem to believe so far.....after all, their losses are all to teams that would probably be #2 in the ACC this year.

http://espn.go.com/mens-college-basketball/blog/_/name/katz_andy/id/5942902/wolfpack-await-tracy-smith-return

I humbly predict that El Sid pulls a Sendek, goes .500 in the ACC, then makes the ACC tourney finals, then makes the NCAAs and lives to fight another day. Isnt that the Coach on the Hot Seat way of doing things? Get hot in March?

[Ping Lin]

I humbly predict that El Sid pulls a Sendek, goes .500 in the ACC, then makes the ACC tourney finals, then makes the NCAAs and lives to fight another day. Isnt that the Coach on the Hot Seat way of doing things? Get hot in March?

You know, even as little as I think of Lowe, this isn't completely out of the realm of possibility -- heck, having Smith back will help the team, even incrementally, and well...they do get to play Wake Forest.

That being said, Lowe's teams have tended to fade as the season progresses, not catch on. The only exception is his first year, where he a) was playing with Herb Sendek's players rather than his and b) got Engin Atsur back from injury, who was almost inarguably more important to that team than Smith is to this.

And stepping back for a moment here, to realistically make the NCAA's, State has to be 10-6 in ACC -- I don't see 8-8 as cutting it this year (absent a miracle tournament run). They have to play UNC and Duke twice, but let's say the ball bounces funny and they manage to split those games 2-2. That means they have to go 8-4 against the rest of the ACC to make the tourney. With this team, I just don't see that happening. (And mind you, that's with a pretty improbable split against Duke or sweep of the Heels.)

[nctalkinghead]

The counter-argument would be that five years is enough. Lowe took over a program that had made the NCAAs five years in a row. He hasn't made the NCAAs yet. Every player on his team is a player he recruited. Sure, he's had some good wins but I could give you a long list of really bad losses.

This may be premature. State hasn't started its ACC season yet, its best player has been out with an injury and the ACC's performance so far suggests that there are first-division niches just begging to be filled. So, maybe State goes 10-6, goes to the NCAAs, Lowe gets an extension and everything is hunky-dory. Stranger things have happened.

But, as I stated earlier in the thread, I'm quite certain that State has to go to the Big Dance for him to keep his job. Maybe that's not fair, maybe five years isn't long enough. But Sendek didn't leave a bare cupboard and the job was by no means considered a rebuilding job when Lowe took it. The State fan base is restless and Lowe has a big two months ahead of him.

Jim, the current NC State fanbase was BORN restless :)

[jimsumner]

Jim, the current NC State fanbase was BORN restless :)

In case you missed it, the Wolfpack edged Delaware State tonight 72-70 in front of 13,000 or so empty seats and a few thousand State fans, who alternated between boredom, outrage and fear.

It was not pretty.

[Newton_14]

In case you missed it, the Wolfpack edged Delaware State tonight 72-70 in front of 13,000 or so empty seats and a few thousand State fans, who alternated between boredom, outrage and fear.

It was not pretty.

This is the part I truly do not understand. (Attendance) They pack 50K+ into Carter-Finley for every football game, and it would take what, 35-40% of that to fill the RBC Center for Basketball? Don't recall off the top of my head exactly how many people the RBC holds for basketball.

This is one of the most passionate fanbases anywhere, and they cannot put fannies in the seat for hoops. Makes no sense to me. They rail on the former AD and every coach and complain about everything, including recruiting, but will not attend games.

I am a believer that poor fan attendance can hurt recruiting. Why would a Mickey D recruit want to go play somewhere that the fans do not support the team by attending games?

I just saw the highlights on WRAL and when Wood's winning shot went thru the hoop with 2.1 seconds left, the players, including Wood, showed no emotion whatsoever, and there was no roar from the crowd. That's just sad.

[Acymetric]

This is the part I truly do not understand. (Attendance) They pack 50K+ into Carter-Finley for every football game, and it would take what, 35-40% of that to fill the RBC Center for Basketball? Don't recall off the top of my head exactly how many people the RBC holds for basketball.

This is one of the most passionate fanbases anywhere, and they cannot put fannies in the seat for hoops. Makes no sense to me. They rail on the former AD and every coach and complain about everything, including recruiting, but will not attend games.

I am a believer that poor fan attendance can hurt recruiting. Why would a Mickey D recruit want to go play somewhere that the fans do not support the team by attending games?

I just saw the highlights on WRAL and when Wood's winning shot went thru the hoop with 2.1 seconds left, the players, including Wood, showed no emotion whatsoever, and there was no roar from the crowd. That's just sad.

I've gotta disagree with you hear. There just aren't a lot of good reasons to go to State games right now unless you enjoy bad basketball, particularly right up against the holidays when a lot of people are traveling and the team is playing a patsy opponent. Hard to get really pumped up about a last second win over...Delaware State? Players and fans alike can see that there wasn't much good throughout that game, final shot notwithstanding. This team is playing really poorly, and the fans are responding accordingly. As someone who has always considered State to be one of my favorite non-Duke schools I hope they right the ship this season, but I don't think they will. Hope they get a good coach when Lowe gets shown the door.

I will add that I feel bad for Sydney. I'm sure he cares about the school, but he just can't get it done. Or at least if he can, he isn't.

[Newton_14]

I've gotta disagree with you hear. There just aren't a lot of good reasons to go to State games right now unless you enjoy bad basketball, particularly right up against the holidays when a lot of people are traveling and the team is playing a patsy opponent. Hard to get really pumped up about a last second win over...Delaware State? Players and fans alike can see that there wasn't much good throughout that game, final shot notwithstanding. This team is playing really poorly, and the fans are responding accordingly. As someone who has always considered State to be one of my favorite non-Duke schools I hope they right the ship this season, but I don't think they will. Hope they get a good coach when Lowe gets shown the door.

I will add that I feel bad for Sydney. I'm sure he cares about the school, but he just can't get it done. Or at least if he can, he isn't.

Fair points, but it is not just this year. Attendance has been bad for years now. At work right now so I will finish my thoughts later tonight. It is just a bad scene over there right now.

[jimsumner]

Fair points, but it is not just this year. Attendance has been bad for years now. At work right now so I will finish my thoughts later tonight. It is just a bad scene over there right now.

I suspect the RBC Center had at least 5,000 empty seats for the Sunday afternoon game against Arizona.

For years State complained about the unfair advantage Carolina had with the Smith Center. Just give us a 20,000-seat arena and we'll show 'em.

Well, they have their 20,000 seat arena. Like the Carmichael/Smith transition, they've lost a lot of their home-court advantage playing in bigger, more sterile atmosphere. When Carolina or Duke comes callling, the place is full and rocking. But almost any other time, it's just too big for the program.

Remember, we're talking about a state-supported school, located in the center of the state, with more students than any other school in the state and a boatload of alumni within easy driving distance.

They should be able to fill the place on a regular basis.

But the last three coaches have been Les Robinson, Herb Sendek and Sidney Lowe. Good, decent men all and all have forgotten more about basketball than I've ever known. But exciting basketball isn't their middle name.

The students have finished exams and gone home for the holidays. If you were a student and lived in Winston-Salem or Charlotte, would you drive back for a game against Delaware State?

Suspect not.

State hosts Alabama A&M next week and then has a noon game against San Diego on New Year's Day. Their strength-of-schedule is collapsing and even impressive wins against teams of this caliber don't help when the selection committee goes behind closed doors. And two-point wins over Delaware State sure don't help. The only point in playing these games is to develop and refine things that will help you in conference play. That doesn't appear to be the case here, especially with Smith still nursing that knee injury.

Still, plenty of time for them to turn the boat around. But I just haven't seen any signs that siggest it's likely.

[Orange&BlackSheep]

I suspect the RBC Center had at least 5,000 empty seats for the Sunday afternoon game against Arizona.

For years State complained about the unfair advantage Carolina had with the Smith Center. Just give us a 20,000-seat arena and we'll show 'em.

Well, they have their 20,000 seat arena. Like the Carmichael/Smith transition, they've lost a lot of their home-court advantage playing in bigger, more sterile atmosphere. When Carolina or Duke comes callling, the place is full and rocking. But almost any other time, it's just too big for the program.

Remember, we're talking about a state-supported school, located in the center of the state, with more students than any other school in the state and a boatload of alumni within easy driving distance.

They should be able to fill the place on a regular basis.

But the last three coaches have been Les Robinson, Herb Sendek and Sidney Lowe. Good, decent men all and all have forgotten more about basketball than I've ever known. But exciting basketball isn't their middle name.

The students have finished exams and gone home for the holidays. If you were a student and lived in Winston-Salem or Charlotte, would you drive back for a game against Delaware State?

Suspect not.

State hosts Alabama A&M next week and then has a noon game against San Diego on New Year's Day. Their strength-of-schedule is collapsing and even impressive wins against teams of this caliber don't help when the selection committee goes behind closed doors. And two-point wins over Delaware State sure don't help. The only point in playing these games is to develop and refine things that will help you in conference play. That doesn't appear to be the case here, especially with Smith still nursing that knee injury.

Still, plenty of time for them to turn the boat around. But I just haven't seen any signs that siggest it's likely.

I have always been puzzled by Sendek being accused of non-exciting basketball. To me (and my screen name perhaps shows some bias), is there anything more exciting than seeing a ball worked around until a great scoring opportunity is created? I am supposed to think that watching someone beating his man off the dribble is exciting while a pass into the high post that results in a cut, bounce pass, and lay-up is a snoozefest? With the advent of the shot clock and elimination of four corners, I don't think any style of basketball is boring so long as it is not a turnoverfest.

What is exciting is winning. No one will tell me that NC St got rid of Sendek because they did not like his style. His style/recruiting/coaching resulted in too many L's. He could have had them running up and down the court the way everyone apparently thinks basketball should be played to be exciting and still be in Az St if that style produced the same # of L's.

[I recognize that Herb's personality was not exactly Valvano-like and did not produce a Cult of Personality that may have made him more popular with the fanbase.]

/rant

[Slackerb]

A few things to bear in mind:

A)State actually is always in the top 25 of attendance records...not sure where you get the notion that they don't pack the RBC center. Sure, attendance % is lower, but when you average 13,000 fans per game and finish in the bottom of the conference.

B)The recorded attendance for last nights game was 11,435....so it's below average, but during the holidays against a patsy is still decent. I mean let's look at the Terps attendance recently: 11,689 at NJIT. GT's most recent game? 3,480.

It's easy to fill the stadium when you are #1, or even good. To stay in the top 25 consistently in attendance despite not making the NCAA's is very impressive....

[davekay1971]

I'm sad to see things going this way for Lowe. This year seems to be cementing the idea that he's not going to be able to produce in the crucial areas of wins, post-season appearances, or generating fanbase enthusiasm (which really is just a result of the first two issues).

This year started out with buzz over the incoming talent and the reports that team chemistry was something to see. But the incoming talent is struggling to produce consistent results on the floor...which is to be expected, since they're freshmen. The seats are empty. The team seems strangely listless and uncertain on the court.

Debbie Yow is probably making some very simple calculations: a coach there for 5 years without a noticeable upward trend, even now that he's got his own players to work with; reasonable talent on the court (right now you have to think Brown, Harrow, and Leslie will all be back, along with Harrow, Painter, and Wood) with which to attract a new coach; a tradition-rich ACC school with good facilities with which to attract a new coach; a fan-base that has lost it's basketball enthusiasm. Put all that together and you have to think that, barring a great January-March, she makes a move.

I have hoped that Lowe would make it happen there, but this is a results-oriented business. Even his supporters (like me) have to recognize that State may need to move on.

[jimsumner]

I have always been puzzled by Sendek being accused of non-exciting basketball. To me (and my screen name perhaps shows some bias), is there anything more exciting than seeing a ball worked around until a great scoring opportunity is created? I am supposed to think that watching someone beating his man off the dribble is exciting while a pass into the high post that results in a cut, bounce pass, and lay-up is a snoozefest? With the advent of the shot clock and elimination of four corners, I don't think any style of basketball is boring so long as it is not a turnoverfest.

What is exciting is winning. No one will tell me that NC St got rid of Sendek because they did not like his style. His style/recruiting/coaching resulted in too many L's. He could have had them running up and down the court the way everyone apparently thinks basketball should be played to be exciting and still be in Az St if that style produced the same # of L's.

[I recognize that Herb's personality was not exactly Valvano-like and did not produce a Cult of Personality that may have made him more popular with the fanbase.]

/rant

Sendek definitely fell short in the charisma category. He wasn't a schmoozer and that offended more than a few high-rollers who felt that they were entitled to be schmoozed by the head guy. Sendek can be very engaging in small groups but he never seemed comfortable in large gatherings.

That said, his teams had a system, he recruited to that system, and his players seemed to know what they were doing most of the time.

But a good portion of the State fan-base would not agree with your belief that winning is sexy enough. Sendek didn't win often enough but he also didn't win with enough style.

Going to five consecutive NCAAs is pretty good. But from the time Everett Case arrived in 1946 until Valvano's departure in 1990 (Les had one carryover year), State was nationally relevant more often than not. They ruled the local roost as often as Duke or Carolina. When State won its most recent ACC title in 1987, State had as many ACC titles as anyone and two of the ACC's four national titles. Carolina had the other two and Duke was the school that couldn't win the big one.

Since then, no ACC titles, one Sweet Sixteen and nobody talks about the Triangle's Big Three, like they did in the 1980s.

Most current State fans don't remember Case and many aren't old enough to remember Sloan, Thompson and Burleson. But they know some of the history and feel that their team should be competing for national and ACC titles not hoping to play their way onto the NCAA bubble. They sure don't expect to be falling behind Youngstown State or squeaking out victories over Delaware State. So, I can tell you that a significant portion of the fan base is very unhappy with the way things are going.

[jimsumner]

A few things to bear in mind:

A)State actually is always in the top 25 of attendance records...not sure where you get the notion that they don't pack the RBC center. Sure, attendance % is lower, but when you average 13,000 fans per game and finish in the bottom of the conference.

B)The recorded attendance for last nights game was 11,435....so it's below average, but during the holidays against a patsy is still decent. I mean let's look at the Terps attendance recently: 11,689 at NJIT. GT's most recent game? 3,480.

It's easy to fill the stadium when you are #1, or even good. To stay in the top 25 consistently in attendance despite not making the NCAA's is very impressive....

Well, I get the notion that State doesn't pack the RBC Center by going to the games, looking at the empty seats and listening to the squeaks of the basketball shoes in a deathly-quite arena. 11,000 sold tickets doesn't equate to 11,000 people actually in the seats. I guarantee you there were nowhere near 11,000 people in the RBC Center last night.

Top 25 nationally sounds impressive. But remember, we're talking about a tradition-rich, state-supported university with 30,000 students, in a metro area of 1.6 million people, playing in a major basketball conference.

Playing .500 basketball in a 1/3 empty arena is not making people happy.

And by people, I'm not just referring to the fans.

[Fletch]

State fan here. I like reading DBR and thought I would join in on this topic.

I could talk for hours and hours about State basketball and its ups and downs (mostly downs) in the last 20+ years, but it all boils down to this: We want NC State to be relevant again. Relevant in the ACC and relevant on the national scene. Does this mean that we expect State, like Duke, to compete for national championships every season? No

I'm 35 years old, so I grew up during the 1980's when Valvano coached. There was not one year in the 1980's that State was clearly the best team in the ACC. In the early 80's, UNC and UVa were better programs, followed by UNC and Duke in the late 80's. Yet State was still relevant. They went to the Elite 8 in 1985 & 1986; the Sweet Sixteen in 1989; finished first in the regular season in 1985(tie) & 1989; won the ACC in 1983 & 1987; and of course, won the NCAA in '83.

State was not achieved any of these accomplishments since 1990, save the lone Sweet Sixteen by Herb in 2004(?). Again, State's teams were not world beaters in the 80's. Only twice did State finish a season with less than 10 losses, but there was success. This is what State fans want. Our lack of success has led to understandable frustration from the fans. Duke and UNC winning championships every other year doesn't help.

Don't get me wrong -- I would love to find a Coach K clone who would turn our program into a consistent top 10 team and compete for a national championship every year; a program where a record of 28-6 is the norm. Mostly, State fans want what we had in the 1980's and before: to be relevant. I don't think that's unrealistic or unreasonable.

EDIT: For the record, if Sidney can't take State to the NCAA's this year, I believe he should be replaced.

[sagegrouse]

State fan here. I like reading DBR and thought I would join in on this topic.

I could talk for hours and hours about State basketball and its ups and downs (mostly downs) in the last 20+ years, but it all boils down to this: We want NC State to be relevant again. Relevant in the ACC and relevant on the national scene. Does this mean that we expect State, like Duke, to compete for national championships every season? No

I'm 35 years old, so I grew up during the 1980's when Valvano coached. There was not one year in the 1980's that State was clearly the best team in the ACC. In the early 80's, UNC and UVa were better programs, followed by UNC and Duke in the late 80's. Yet State was still relevant. They went to the Elite 8 in 1985 & 1986; the Sweet Sixteen in 1989; finished first in the regular season in 1985(tie) & 1989; won the ACC in 1983 & 1987; and of course, won the NCAA in '83.

State was not achieved any of these accomplishments since 1990, save the lone Sweet Sixteen by Herb in 2004(?). Again, State's teams were not world beaters in the 80's. Only twice did State finish a season with less than 10 losses, but there was success. This is what State fans want. Our lack of success has led to understandable frustration from the fans. Duke and UNC winning championships every other year doesn't help.

Don't get me wrong -- I would love to find a Coach K clone who would turn our program into a consistent top 10 team and compete for a national championship every year; a program where a record of 28-6 is the norm. Mostly, State fans want what we had in the 1980's and before: to be relevant. I don't think that's unrealistic or unreasonable.

EDIT: For the record, if Sidney can't take State to the NCAA's this year, I believe he should be replaced.

Welcome to the Board. The ACC seems to be weaker all over now than in the 1980s, when the competition was brutal. State, Carolina, Duke, Maryland, Tech, and Virginia were all strong. And Wake (Muggsy) and Clemson (Horace Grant and Eleden Campbell) had their moments.

I would like to see State do better (although the beatdown of Duke last year was really painful), and maybe the talent is beginning to show up. I guess we'll find out this year if Sidney Lowe is the answer.

sagegrouse

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Sendek definitely fell short in the charisma category. He wasn't a schmoozer and that offended more than a few high-rollers who felt that they were entitled to be schmoozed by the head guy. Sendek can be very engaging in small groups but he never seemed comfortable in large gatherings.

That said, his teams had a system, he recruited to that system, and his players seemed to know what they were doing most of the time.

But a good portion of the State fan-base would not agree with your belief that winning is sexy enough. Sendek didn't win often enough but he also didn't win with enough style.

Going to five consecutive NCAAs is pretty good. But from the time Everett Case arrived in 1946 until Valvano's departure in 1990 (Les had one carryover year), State was nationally relevant more often than not. They ruled the local roost as often as Duke or Carolina. When State won its most recent ACC title in 1987, State had as many ACC titles as anyone and two of the ACC's four national titles. Carolina had the other two and Duke was the school that couldn't win the big one.

Since then, no ACC titles, one Sweet Sixteen and nobody talks about the Triangle's Big Three, like they did in the 1980s.

Most current State fans don't remember Case and many aren't old enough to remember Sloan, Thompson and Burleson. But they know some of the history and feel that their team should be competing for national and ACC titles not hoping to play their way onto the NCAA bubble. They sure don't expect to be falling behind Youngstown State or squeaking out victories over Delaware State. So, I can tell you that a significant portion of the fan base is very unhappy with the way things are going.

I may be removed from the State fan base and so don't know what I am talking about, but complaining about the "style" seems like parties in a marriage about to fail complaining about not putting the cap back on the toothpaste.

Science has shown that people don't get angry because of "x" reason. They feel the emotion of anger, then their rational brain comes up with a reason for why that emotion exists. Sometimes we connect the dots correctly ... other times we find ourselves in arguments with spouses and don't figure out what we are actually arguing about for 45 minutes. Or why we hear a laundry list of items even though those events happened days, weeks, even years ago.

I think this is a similar situation. The emotion is anger/frustration over losing. "Style" is the straw that is grasped onto by the rational brain.

All that said, I suspect the rep of his "system" might have dissuaded some from wanting to play for him and not having those kinds of players probably persuaded Herb to play his "system" in a time honored chicken and egg situation.

[Fletch]

Thanks for the welcome.

The ACC is absolutely down this year. The conference is on track for the one of the worst years in its history. This only adds to the frustration for State fans -- if we continue to play poorly, we'll finish near the bottom of this morbidly weak conference.

[jv001]

Thanks for the welcome.

The ACC is absolutely down this year. The conference is on track for the one of the worst years in its history. This only adds to the frustration for State fans -- if we continue to play poorly, we'll finish near the bottom of this morbidly weak conference.

I have been a Duke fan since 1959, but NC State was always my 2nd team. I have two friends that are State Alumn. They went from crazy over the top NCSU basketball fans to crazy over the top football fans. If you had told me this would be the case back in the 80s, I would have said you were crazy. These guys did'nt even play football in high school nor did they even support our high school football team. My friends and I were really ABC fans, but guess what? They don't have that dislike for unc anylonger, but now have a high dislike for Duke basketball. I guess Duke's success in basketball has over taken their dislike for unc. Well I still root for NCSU, except when they play Duke. Go Duke!

[CameronBornAndBred]

But, as I stated earlier in the thread, I'm quite certain that State has to go to the Big Dance for him to keep his job. Maybe that's not fair, maybe five years isn't long enough. But Sendek didn't leave a bare cupboard and the job was by no means considered a rebuilding job when Lowe took it. The State fan base is restless and Lowe has a big two months ahead of him.
In a tradition rich conference (despite the dismal outlook of this year) 5 years without dancing is one too many years for the majority of ACC fans. We of course are spoiled, one year's absence is a nightmare, but to be on the outside looking in for half a decade is an impossibility for anyone to fathom when your neighbors are taking that 1st round ticket for granted.
I'm not certain that just getting to the tourney will save Lowe. If State shows up and loses in the first round, I could easily see him being replaced then too. Like others that have posted here, I want to see State be better. I miss the days when they were a part of what made Tobacco Road basketball great. My gut says that Debbie will be having a few interviews at the end of March, or at least be putting together a search committee.

[Johnboy]

I may be removed from the State fan base and so don't know what I am talking about, but complaining about the "style" seems like parties in a marriage about to fail complaining about not putting the cap back on the toothpaste.

Science has shown that people don't get angry because of "x" reason. They feel the emotion of anger, then their rational brain comes up with a reason for why that emotion exists. Sometimes we connect the dots correctly ... other times we find ourselves in arguments with spouses and don't figure out what we are actually arguing about for 45 minutes. Or why we hear a laundry list of items even though those events happened days, weeks, even years ago.

I think this is a similar situation. The emotion is anger/frustration over losing. "Style" is the straw that is grasped onto by the rational brain.

All that said, I suspect the rep of his "system" might have dissuaded some from wanting to play for him and not having those kinds of players probably persuaded Herb to play his "system" in a time honored chicken and egg situation.

Maybe so, but I have lunch every Monday (Rotary Club) with a huge State supporter and one of the major movers & shakers responsible for raising the money to build the RBC Center. We were discussing NCSU basketball this past Monday and I said something about State fans perhaps being unrealistic when they let Sendek go. He immediately corrected me, saying "Well, Sendek left for greener pastures - he wasn't fired. But I will say this - I'm not a big fan of that Princeton offense Sendek ran."

Again, you may be right, but Jim's post sounded right on in his description as far as my friend goes. Sure, he may be grasping for a straw to hang on - Princeton has its trademark offense, and Dean had the 4 Corners, which made the Princeton offense look like fast break - but it seems to me that between Sendek's boring personality and his boring style of game, State fans were generally not sorry to see him go. Would a Final Four have helped him stay? Absolutely. Exhibit A: Paul Hewitt.

[jimsumner]

Maybe so, but I have lunch every Monday (Rotary Club) with a huge State supporter and one of the major movers & shakers responsible for raising the money to build the RBC Center. We were discussing NCSU basketball this past Monday and I said something about State fans perhaps being unrealistic when they let Sendek go. He immediately corrected me, saying "Well, Sendek left for greener pastures - he wasn't fired. But I will say this - I'm not a big fan of that Princeton offense Sendek ran."

Again, you may be right, but Jim's post sounded right on in his description as far as my friend goes. Sure, he may be grasping for a straw to hang on - Princeton has its trademark offense, and Dean had the 4 Corners, which made the Princeton offense look like fast break - but it seems to me that between Sendek's boring personality and his boring style of game, State fans were generally not sorry to see him go. Would a Final Four have helped him stay? Absolutely. Exhibit A: Paul Hewitt.


If one thinks that winning always trumps style, I would point out that our friends in College Park just fired the ACC football coach of the year, coming off an 8-4 season. Friedgen's style didn't excite the fan base, who in turn declined to spend their leisure time and discretionary income watching Maryland football. Too many empty seats spelled new coach, regardless of the record.

It should be kept in mind that Sendek wasn't fired and I do not believe the administration nudged him out. But Sendek sensed the lack of love and the broad consensus when he left was "good riddance."

As the old saying goes, be careful what you wish for.

[Fletch]

^^ Jim, State fans "wish" for something better. Just because Lowe is not working out does not mean that we want Sendek back. Sendek left and both he and NCSU are better for it.

Sendek's leaving & our ex-AD's failure to hire a competent replacement are two different, unconnected stories. This "be careful what you wish for" argument is bogus. I'd rather fail while trying to improve, than languish in mediocrity.

I feel much better about Debbie Yow's abilities vs Lee Fowlers. When there's time for a coaching change, she'll make the right move.

[loran16]

^^ Jim, State fans "wish" for something better. Just because Lowe is not working out does not mean that we want Sendek back. Sendek left and both he and NCSU are better for it.

I understand not wanting Sendek back. Fine. But you can't say NCSU is better off due to him leaving. Sorry, total baloney there. 4 9th or worse finishes in a row in the ACC without even an NIT berth in two of his 4 years, after coming off of 5 straight NCAA appearances? (And a top 4 ACC finish in 4 of those 5 years).

Losing a coach generally means losing the recruits you had coming in, barring extreme circumstances such as Skip Prosser's death over at Wake. That makes you worse off. The only way you're better off when a coach leaves is if you can replace him with a clear improvement (Definitely not the case) or if that coach was terrible...which Herb wasn't.

[Fletch]

Apparently I'm not expressing my feelings clearly. Yes, our teams the last few years are not as good as Sendek's last few. This is obvious. I also know where State finished in the standings for all of Sendek's years as well as Lowe's. I've been attending State games for over 25 years.

Herb Sendek is in a better situation in Arizona -- where they have virtually no basketball history and lower expectations.

State is better off because he is gone too. We wanted better. Why? Because we've had better. Les Robinson is the only other coach we had in the ACC era who did not win an ACC Championship. That includes 4 different coaches. I read somewhere that he is the only coach in ACC history to coach 10 years at the same school and not win a championship.

Look, Sendek is a good coach. We want a great coach. Lowe is a bad coach. The way this season is progressing, we'll have another shot at hiring a great coach pretty soon.

[OldPhiKap]

Apparently I'm not expressing my feelings clearly. Yes, our teams the last few years are not as good as Sendek's last few. This is obvious. I also know where State finished in the standings for all of Sendek's years as well as Lowe's. I've been attending State games for over 25 years.

Herb Sendek is in a better situation in Arizona -- where they have virtually no basketball history and lower expectations.

State is better off because he is gone too. We wanted better. Why? Because we've had better. Les Robinson is the only other coach we had in the ACC era who did not win an ACC Championship. That includes 4 different coaches. I read somewhere that he is the only coach in ACC history to coach 10 years at the same school and not win a championship.

Look, Sendek is a good coach. We want a great coach. Lowe is a bad coach. The way this season is progressing, we'll have another shot at hiring a great coach pretty soon.

Welcome, Fletch, and thanks for posting. Interesting to hear your views, which mirror what I hear from my Pack-backers.

I, too, would like to see State relevant again. Especially if it is at the expense of UNC. But the Triangle ain't a triangle without three good teams.

[Fletch]

Thanks PhiCap. One day State will get their act together and start pulling their weight. I just hope it's in my lifetime.:)

[howardlander]

Apparently I'm not expressing my feelings clearly. Yes, our teams the last few years are not as good as Sendek's last few. This is obvious. I also know where State finished in the standings for all of Sendek's years as well as Lowe's. I've been attending State games for over 25 years.

Herb Sendek is in a better situation in Arizona -- where they have virtually no basketball history and lower expectations.

State is better off because he is gone too. We wanted better. Why? Because we've had better. Les Robinson is the only other coach we had in the ACC era who did not win an ACC Championship. That includes 4 different coaches. I read somewhere that he is the only coach in ACC history to coach 10 years at the same school and not win a championship.

Look, Sendek is a good coach. We want a great coach. Lowe is a bad coach. The way this season is progressing, we'll have another shot at hiring a great coach pretty soon.

You may have another chance, but it's not clear it will happen. Who are you hoping to hire?

Howard

[77devil]

Look, Sendek is a good coach. We want a great coach. Lowe is a bad coach. The way this season is progressing, we'll have another shot at hiring a great coach pretty soon.

Attracting a great coach to N.C. State may be more difficult than you realize, although if UNC continues to struggle it may become a little easier. It's been more than 20 years since State won an ACC Championship or was a factor on the national stage. Which great coach wants to come to NCSU and compete as a distant third to Duke and UNC? With tight budgets for the university and the state will NCSU be able offer the package necessary to secure a great coach? Time will tell, but I think State will need a lot of luck even to hire a top notch up and comer.

[Acymetric]

Attracting a great coach to N.C. State may be more difficult than you realize, although if UNC continues to struggle it may become a little easier. It's been more than 20 years since State won an ACC Championship or was a factor on the national stage. Which great coach wants to come to NCSU and compete as a distant third to Duke and UNC? With tight budgets for the university and the state will NCSU be able offer the package necessary to secure a great coach? Time will tell, but I think State will need a lot of luck even to hire a top notch up and comer.

State will probably have to pay more than some other schools would for a big time coach, but they should be able to find that money and need to be willing to spend it. If they do, they'll get someone to help pick them up off the floor.

[Fletch]

Finding/attracting a great coach for State will not be easy. If it was easy, Lee Fowler would have already done it. I have no idea who State should hire -- that will be Debbie Yow's job. She can "sell" State 1000 times better than Fowler ever did.


The next coach at State probably won't be a "great" coach right away. We need to find an up and coming coach, a la Coach K & Valvano. Somebody who is up to the challenge of going against Duke and UNC and won't back down.

[Bluedevil114]

Finding/attracting a great coach for State will not be easy. If it was easy, Lee Fowler would have already done it. I have no idea who State should hire -- that will be Debbie Yow's job. She can "sell" State 1000 times better than Fowler ever did.


The next coach at State probably won't be a "great" coach right away. We need to find an up and coming coach, a la Coach K & Valvano. Somebody who is up to the challenge of going against Duke and UNC and won't back down.

Maybe this would be a good time to go after a guy like Brad Stevens.

[RoyalBlue08]

Maybe this would be a good time to go after a guy like Brad Stevens.

Brad Stevens, or another coach in as much demand as he is, is never going to accept the State job. It's not a very good job to be honest. What other job in the country do you have to pass Duke and UNC to be considered a success? The only coaches taking that job are ones that think this is their one and only shot at the big time. State is just going to have to get lucky with one of those type of guys.

(For the record, at the time I thought pushing Herb out was a mistake, and I have believed it every day since.)

[Orange&BlackSheep]

Maybe so, but I have lunch every Monday (Rotary Club) with a huge State supporter and one of the major movers & shakers responsible for raising the money to build the RBC Center. We were discussing NCSU basketball this past Monday and I said something about State fans perhaps being unrealistic when they let Sendek go. He immediately corrected me, saying "Well, Sendek left for greener pastures - he wasn't fired. But I will say this - I'm not a big fan of that Princeton offense Sendek ran."

Again, you may be right, but Jim's post sounded right on in his description as far as my friend goes. Sure, he may be grasping for a straw to hang on - Princeton has its trademark offense, and Dean had the 4 Corners, which made the Princeton offense look like fast break - but it seems to me that between Sendek's boring personality and his boring style of game, State fans were generally not sorry to see him go. Would a Final Four have helped him stay? Absolutely. Exhibit A: Paul Hewitt.

I just don't and will never agree that the style is boring. It is poetry when run well.

Was Duke's style last year boring to anyone? I bet dollars to doughnuts there average length of possession last year was comparable to State's during the Sendek era.

[Bob Green]

Dan Wiederer weighs in on the subject:

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2011/01/01/1059739?sac=ACC_Sports

Wiederer lists four items to keep an eye on over the next three months. 1.) Tracy Smith's right knee 2.) C.J. Leslie's energy 3.) State's transition attack 4.) The Wolfpack's confidence level.

My confidence level in Sidney Lowe isn't very high so I expect a different coach to be ruling the roost in Raleigh next season.

[SupaDave]

Dan Wiederer weighs in on the subject:

http://www.fayobserver.com/articles/2011/01/01/1059739?sac=ACC_Sports

Wiederer lists four items to keep an eye on over the next three months. 1.) Tracy Smith's right knee 2.) C.J. Leslie's energy 3.) State's transition attack 4.) The Wolfpack's confidence level.

My confidence level in Sidney Lowe isn't very high so I expect a different coach to be ruling the roost in Raleigh next season.

Thanks for this Bob. I attended Austin's game here in Atlanta last night and I got quite a few questions about Lowe's future. It appears he quite well liked down here on the recruiting circuit (Harrow, Brown, etc). There are many groups interested in this situation.

[Ping Lin]

During last night's loss to VATech, the Wolfpack were booed by the home crowd at several points (and perhaps not wrongfully so). Unless the team runs the table on either the rest of the season or the ACC tournament, Lowe is done.

What really puzzles me is the lack of intensity and emotion in the Wolfpack. It should be clear to any outside observer that Lowe's job is in jeopardy this season, and yet instead of rallying behind him, the team almost invariably comes out flat and unmotivated, with any small bursts of energy not spreading to other team members.

Maybe they just don't like the coach? I don't get that feeling either, though. It's truly puzzling.

[Olympic Fan]

During last night's loss to VATech, the Wolfpack were booed by the home crowd at several points (and perhaps not wrongfully so). Unless the team runs the table on either the rest of the season or the ACC tournament, Lowe is done.

What really puzzles me is the lack of intensity and emotion in the Wolfpack. It should be clear to any outside observer that Lowe's job is in jeopardy this season, and yet instead of rallying behind him, the team almost invariably comes out flat and unmotivated, with any small bursts of energy not spreading to other team members.

Maybe they just don't like the coach? I don't get that feeling either, though. It's truly puzzling.

I think the UNC game Saturday was worse -- State's big rivalry game and the team played with no passion, no fire .. with a discernable lack of effort. Losing is one thing, that was another.

I think Jim Sumner had it right two months ago -- Debbie Yow will make her decision on one and only one basis ... if he makes the NCAA, he's safe ... if he misses (for the fifth straight year) he's gone. You can debate the fairness all you want, but I'm hearing what Jim's hearing ... that was the preseason understanding between Yow and Lowe.

I think some of you will be surprised at how attractive the State job will be. Oh, not as attractive as some of their fans think -- they won't get Dixon, Wright, Few or even Stevens. But they will do better than an NBA assistant coach with no college coaching experience.

I don't claim to have any insight ... some hints that former NC State assistant Sean Miller is not happy in Arizona (even though he's got his program on the upswing), plus Wichita State's Gregg Marshall seems to be a viable option. Jim Beilein, who almost took the State job in 2006 (he was stopped by his West Virginia buyout) is interested again after running into a brick wall at Michigan.

Look for Debbie Yow to handle the search far more efiiciently that Fowler did -- we won't see a long list of failed candidates paraded through the media.

[loran16]

I think the UNC game Saturday was worse -- State's big rivalry game and the team played with no passion, no fire .. with a discernable lack of effort. Losing is one thing, that was another.

I think Jim Sumner had it right two months ago -- Debbie Yow will make her decision on one and only one basis ... if he makes the NCAA, he's safe ... if he misses (for the fifth straight year) he's gone. You can debate the fairness all you want, but I'm hearing what Jim's hearing ... that was the preseason understanding between Yow and Lowe.

I think some of you will be surprised at how attractive the State job will be. Oh, not as attractive as some of their fans think -- they won't get Dixon, Wright, Few or even Stevens. But they will do better than an NBA assistant coach with no college coaching experience.

I don't claim to have any insight ... some hints that former NC State assistant Sean Miller is not happy in Arizona (even though he's got his program on the upswing), plus Wichita State's Gregg Marshall seems to be a viable option. Jim Beilein, who almost took the State job in 2006 (he was stopped by his West Virginia buyout) is interested again after running into a brick wall at Michigan.

Look for Debbie Yow to handle the search far more efiiciently that Fowler did -- we won't see a long list of failed candidates paraded through the media.

Can't see Miller leaving. Arizona's on the upswing, he's got good recruiting class coming in, and really Arizona is a power program in the Pac 10, or at least was far more recently than NC State.

Marshall maybe. Belein...I don't like it. He's had a BCS program (two of them!). He's run into the wall, like you said, and really it's a failure.

Put it this way, UMich and NC State are similar bball schools....some good history, but right now the two are dwarfed in the region by two giants (for Mich, it's MSU and OSU) who take all the attention. And he's failed there mostly.

I think you go with an assistant coach at a BCS program or a mid-major coach (Marshall's a possibility, as mentioned).

[Devilsfan]

Shawn Miller? Brad Stevens? Someone that can beat unch like a junior version of the coach at Pitt or Nova.

[dukediv2011]

Tubby Smith is a name that I have heard a few times... He would be great for the conference.

[loran16]

Tubby Smith is a name that I have heard a few times... He would be great for the conference.

Tubby's interesting, but it depends really....first, a move to NC State would put Tubby back at a school with a demanding fanbase who has high expectations, though not as bad as Kentucky. Meanwhile, Tubby wouldn't have as good of a recruiting advantage as UK did. Meanwhile at Minnesota, Tubby's gotten a good program on its way to the tourny, so it seems.

In other words, I'm not sure if NC State is an improvement in Tubby's mind. It would certainly be a good hire for NC State.

[wilson]

...I'm not sure if NC State is an improvement in Tubby's mind. It would certainly be a good hire for NC State.Moreover, Tubby is currently making about three times Lowe's annual salary, with incentives that could potentially push it to four times higher in any given year (an upper limit of $3.3 million, compared to a ceiling of about $850K for Sidney). In fact, according to this (http://http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/12359321.html), Tubby is the highest-paid employee in University of Minnesota history.
Presumably, the folks in Raleigh will understand that they'll need to bump compensation up if they want to lure a big name to follow Lowe, but I highly doubt if they'll bump it up that much. That may be part of the overall problem in and of itself, but that's tangential to this discussion IMO.

[loran16]

Moreover, Tubby is currently making about three times Lowe's annual salary, with incentives that could potentially push it to four times higher in any given year (an upper limit of $3.3 million, compared to a ceiling of about $850K for Sidney). In fact, according to this (http://http://www.startribune.com/sports/gophers/12359321.html), Tubby is the highest-paid employee in University of Minnesota history.
Presumably, the folks in Raleigh will understand that they'll need to bump compensation up if they want to lure a big name to follow Lowe, but I highly doubt if they'll bump it up that much. That may be part of the overall problem in and of itself, but that's tangential to this discussion IMO.

I thought NC State had offered a huge contract to Calipari, and thus money wasn't an issue (they paid Lowe little because he was the last option).

[wilson]

I thought NC State had offered a huge contract to Calipari, and thus money wasn't an issue (they paid Lowe little because he was the last option).Good call; I'd forgotten that, but according to this (http://http://www.redorbit.com/news/sports/467250/calipari_wont_join_pack_nc_state_courtship_apparen tly_fails/) and this (http://http://sports.espn.go.com/ncb/news/story?id=2403784), they made offers in the neighborhood of $2 million to Calipari and one or two others (Rick Barnes included), which is still a couple of notches below Tubby's pay grade. They'd presumably be willing to go back to those numbers for the right candidate, but I wouldn't think they'd go another 50% higher.

[dukediv2011]

I think something has to be said about the competitiveness of major college basketball coaches and the appreciation of the fan base. Tubby is in a great place at Minnesota. He has a good program, he is making a large salary, and he has a decent fan base. However, if he were to come to NC State he would be in the heart of conference which has won 5 of 10 NCAA Championships, and he would have the chance to prove that he could recruit and coach against the best coaches in college basketball today (Roy and K).

I think Tubby wants to be seen on that same level and would be willing to take the challenge at NC State where Rick Barnes and Calipari were not willing to take the risk and lose their current status (even though neither has won a NCAA Championship).

I also think that NC State is going to be willing to pay whatever they want to get someone great.

[JasonEvans]

So, now that it appears the team has all but quit on El Sid, will Yow even wait until the season is over to get rid of him?

The total lack of effort on defense in the first half against Duke was absurd and embarrassing for State. I can't imagine the Administration wanting to watch a few more weeks of this Sidney Lowe Death March.

--Jason "Is there any reason to keep him after you have decided to get rid of him?" Evans

[sagegrouse]

I think something has to be said about the competitiveness of major college basketball coaches and the appreciation of the fan base. Tubby is in a great place at Minnesota. He has a good program, he is making a large salary, and he has a decent fan base. However, if he were to come to NC State he would be in the heart of conference which has won 5 of 10 NCAA Championships, and he would have the chance to prove that he could recruit and coach against the best coaches in college basketball today (Roy and K).

I think Tubby wants to be seen on that same level and would be willing to take the challenge at NC State where Rick Barnes and Calipari were not willing to take the risk and lose their current status (even though neither has won a NCAA Championship).

I also think that NC State is going to be willing to pay whatever they want to get someone great.

State should get a young coach for whom State is the ticket to the big time. For Tubby, etc., this would be a last series of big paychecks. Maybe he would do great; maybe he wouldn't need to do great because he will have made all the money he is iver going to make.

Better to go after a successful coach at a mid-tier school like -- ahem -- Brownell or Donahue than go for a big name. This would be someone who needs a job paying what State will pay with the potential to do even better.

sagegrouse

[DevilWearsPrada]

Sidney Lowe seems like a very nice person. The State basketball mens program has gone to pot or squat. Had a good program and recruits with Herb! And the Wolfies ran the Saint Herb out of town.

I would think that Sidney could coach and recruit, and Monte Towe had a good team, where he was, previous to State. The coaching staff seems articulate.... Are the players just hard headed or what? They have good talent. Dang, beat Duke last year!!!!

I like Sidney, he was a part of the Cardiac pack that won the NCAA championship along time ago 1983. I would think this is either his last year, not unless, his team can make some kind of run Feb/March and win!

So how long will the Wolfies keep Sidney??? I love Monte Towe!!!!

[mcdukie]

State is an interesting coaching job. In the minds of their fans, they are on the same level as Duke and UNC. But recruits do not see it that way. I think they have some talent, but no chemistry whatsoever. Ryan Harrow, Tracey Smith to name a few are very talented but Lowe looks lost and they seem to have no confidence in him. CJ Leslie seems to do what he wants (when he is playing) and they really don't know how to incorporate the shooter, Wood, and the other point guard. I think the right coach could get that team to the tournament. They are going to have to pay for a top-flight coach. Tubby would be interesting.
Question: Better job- NC State or Maryland?

[DevilWearsPrada]

I have said all year, NC State mens basketball team has good players, Sidney just cant coach them for some unknown reason. Perhaps the boys are hard headed and think they know everything.

Sidney seems to be a nice man, and was a very good BB player in his day. Perhaps, he is more useful in the NBA program. Monte Towe was doing very well, where he was, before arriving at State for the asst coaching position.

State has gone from bad to worse, since conference play.

The game was over during the First half yesterday. There was NO LEADER for the PACK.

Think Debbie Yow is looking for a new Mens Basketball Coach?

[Acymetric]

So, now that it appears the team has all but quit on El Sid, will Yow even wait until the season is over to get rid of him?

The total lack of effort on defense in the first half against Duke was absurd and embarrassing for State. I can't imagine the Administration wanting to watch a few more weeks of this Sidney Lowe Death March.

--Jason "Is there any reason to keep him after you have decided to get rid of him?" Evans

Well, there is one downside. They won't be able to get any of their top candidates until the end of the season, so they'll have to make an assistant the interim coach. When that happens there is always pressure to keep the interim coach if he has some success, even if there are much better candidates out there...so it may be easier to wait until April and avoid any business with interim coaches.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

Think Debbie Yow is looking for a new Mens Basketball Coach?
Does a wolf go in the woods? :rolleyes:

[Cameron]

Think Debbie Yow is looking for a new Mens Basketball Coach?


At this particular point in Sid the Kid's career, Gordon Bombay has a better chance of coaching the Wolfpack next year.

To add to Ozzie's truth above, do timberwolves play basketball in Minnesota? Better even, did North Carolina win 8 games in 2002?

While I think the hiring of Orlando Smith would be a very good one for N.C. State, monumental even in terms of resurrecting a once proud basketball school, it is a highly unlikely scenario. At Minnesota -- and the allure of the Big Ten -- Tubby's coaching pedigree lends to an excellent chance of winning and contesting for NCAA appearances yearly (possibly even deep runs given the right experience and grouping of players), and all without the relentless and almost deranged expectations of the fan contingency that brought him down in the Commonwealth of Kentucky. Minnesota is a football school, first and last, and that bodes well for a coach who outwardly grew weary of the strains of high-stakes, win-at-all-costs ball at UK.

More importantly, from all accounts that I've read or seen concerning his tenure to this point in the far north of college basketball, Tubby has found a place in Minnesota surrounded by the kind of family atmosphere he himself admires and hungers for most. I think he's comfortable there and enjoys the liberty of coaching again for no other reason than being around the game he loves and leading young men to success.

I, of course, could be wholly wrong. But that's my take.

[Newton_14]

So, now that it appears the team has all but quit on El Sid, will Yow even wait until the season is over to get rid of him?

The total lack of effort on defense in the first half against Duke was absurd and embarrassing for State. I can't imagine the Administration wanting to watch a few more weeks of this Sidney Lowe Death March.

--Jason "Is there any reason to keep him after you have decided to get rid of him?" Evans

In regards to College Bball, I am normally against a coaching dismissal during the season. In this particular case, though, I believe State should do the deed now. They have simply stopped competing. With the talent on hand, State should be above .500 in conference and able to compete to the wire with any of the ACC teams. They took Syracuse to the wire on the road without Tracy Smith.

I feel they should allow Sidney to gracefully resign, and allow Monte Towe to become interim coach for the remainder of the season with the understanding that under no circumstances will he be named the full time coach. Yow would be able to form a team of folks including hiring one of the firms that assist schools with finding a coach. They could put a solid list together and be ready to start interviewing as soon as the season ends.

The UNC and Duke games were pathetic, and against Va Tech in the middle game State competed for all of about 10 minutes in the 2nd half. Sid for whatever reason, can no longer get them to compete. Time to go.

[OZZIE4DUKE]

I feel they should allow Sidney to gracefully resign, and allow Monte Towe to become interim coach for the remainder of the season with the understanding that under no circumstances will he be named the full time coach.
But Monte might be the right Munster for the job... :cool:

[Newton_14]

But Monte might be the right Munster for the job... :cool:

I am not very OpTOEmistic about that one Oz!:cool:

[shoutingncu]

...did North Carolina win 8 games in 2002?

Surely some of those came in 2001... Does that mean that Yow is not looking for a new coach?

[allenmurray]

So, now that it appears the team has all but quit on El Sid, will Yow even wait until the season is over to get rid of him?

The total lack of effort on defense in the first half against Duke was absurd and embarrassing for State. I can't imagine the Administration wanting to watch a few more weeks of this Sidney Lowe Death March.

--Jason "Is there any reason to keep him after you have decided to get rid of him?" Evans

What would there be to be gained by sacking him now? Yow can quietly look for a new coach whenever she wants. Towe brings nothing to the table in terms of turning the season around. No matter how bad the rest of the season looks, is there really anythng to be gained by firing him now? I think there is not.

However, there are things to be lost. Lowe led them to a national championship. He is a wolfie through and through. Firing him mid-season, unless the new permanant replacement is ready to step in right away, lacks dignity and class. Doing things "right" should still have a place in college athletics. March will be soon enough to give Lowe his walking papers.

[sagegrouse]

What would there be to be gained by sacking him now? Yow can quietly look for a new coach whenever she wants. Towe brings nothing to the table in terms of turning the season around. No matter how bad the rest of the season looks, is there really anythng to be gained by firing him now? I think there is not.

However, there are things to be lost. Lowe led them to a national championship. He is a wolfie through and through. Firing him mid-season, unless the new permanant replacement is ready to step in right away, lacks dignity and class. Doing things "right" should still have a place in college athletics. March will be soon enough to give Lowe his walking papers.

I tend to agree with you, and the only exception I would make is the reason Joe Alleva gave when Carl Franks was sacked after a particularly bad loss to Wake Forest: he said the players, who were working their butts off, deserved better coaching. Heck, Franks was fired at halftime, when Joe went to see Nan Keohane and told her -- Franks just didn't learn about it until the end of the game.

I can't answer the question of whether the State players would have a better rest of season with Sidney replaced by Monte or someone else.

sagegrouse

[Matches]

I would like to see Sid get a couple more years. I think he's finally got players in place, and would like to see him get a chance to coach them up. Obviously this season has been a huge disappointment, but there is talent on that roster, and they have a chance to be quite good in a year or two.

But at this point, he's almost certainly a goner. The failure to compete at UNC and Duke likely was the last straw. State's body language was awful on Saturday, and they do look like they've quit on Sid. The pressure from boosters etc. is going to grow to a fever pitch by season's end.

No need to do it mid-season, though. I really don't like the idea of college coaches being fired in midseason unless there's some issue as to misconduct (otherwise known as the Gillespie Corollary).